PD: Graton Group [has finally!] filed suit 3/22/10 to STOP SIREN! YEA!!

[Barry]

For firefighters to be volunteers strikes me as a rather bizarre subsidy for this economic system.

Yes, it is delightfully out of step with the "system" for people to altruistically volunteer instead of acting out of personal interest. Bravo!

Also, it should be pointed out that (most?) all of the current residents of Graton chose to live there siren and all (ie the siren was there first). The is akin to moving in next to farm and then complaining about the odors and other realities of farming.

It's a very legitimate question as to whether Gratonites would prefer to have a volunteer fire dept with a siren or a community supported (via taxes) professional department. It would be much more appropriate to have a vote rather than a lawsuit. What laws have been broken??

Given that Graton is not a city, I imagine that a special assessment district need to be formed if a professional department is chosen, so that Graton is responsible for its own choice, and not the whole county.

But also be aware that just as there are some people who are unhappy with the siren, there will be people who are unhappy with a new tax, even if it passes, including seniors who are just squeaking by. So which is really the compassionate choice?

[Occidental Nutrition]

Best to look at who still uses a siren and that will lead you to the answer of which departments are all volunteer. I think Tezor listed many who have sirens and all volunteers, and you can include Occidental in that list.

And you have to remember, that Graton's district lies outside of the somewhat flat town of Graton. The outlining areas that are part of their fire district are in the hills, mountains, and canyons. Take a drive down Green Valley Rd, thats part of Graton's district.

In the meantime, firefighters are volunteers. Yes, Tezor is a busy man, because he works full time, as well as being a full time volunteer. To personally attack him and his service to the community, well I don't know to say to that really. He actually has another name here in Occidental, and even had a pizza named after him, its "Good Neighbor Bob" Because he is a great neighbor and outstanding volunteer helping people in their time of most need, often life and death.

I believe he was stating his opinion as a volunteer, trying to show another side to the issue. Letting people know why he feels the sirens are necessary from his experience before they jump on one side of the issue or another. Apparently that can be difficult to hear.

As I read this, there are two questions I think worthwhile:

2. How many fire departments in Sonoma County are "still" volunteer fire departments?
3. Which of these departments still rely on sirens and how does their terrain compare to that of Graton?

Given that we live in an exchange economy, this seems only reasonable to me. Firefighters respond to commercial as well as to residential locations. For firefighters to be volunteers strikes me as a rather bizarre subsidy for this economic system.

[tezor]

Ok all you, including n4rky.

Sorry about that, yeah I lost it. But you sir, are so unclear on the subject it's like talking to a wall... solid concrete.

Do some research jack, 85% of the firefighters on the PLANET are VOLUNTEERS! We are 911. We do most of the work.

Most fire departments are volunteer. Yes, some are paid/volunteer where you have some paid staff( Forestville, Gureneville, Bodega Bay, Goldridge, Windsor, Cloverdale, Healdsburg, Rancho Adobe, Sonoma, Monte Rio, Glen Ellen, ect.) supported by volunteer staff who come in to staff the station when a unit is out on a call. or a fire which requires all available hands. Some only pay the chief (Sebastopol) and the rest are volunteers(although many are city employees), and then there's departments like Santa Rosa and Petaluma which are two fully paid departments in our county. So what you gonna do spunky?

First off, get off your ass, answer your own questions. You are ignorant of what you speak, better to keep your mouth shut than remove all doubt. Do the work, then start dialog. Maybe a solution can come, but the education might remove the question.

It's unclear what you are mumbling about, but are you suggesting that because we respond to commercial calls that we start charging them, but what about residences?

Do you have any clue as to the hours that we devote to training, education, and drill each year? Do you realize that when a new type of car(hybrids) comes out we have to train to safely remove our patients and protect ourselves from high voltage discharges. Do you know about communicable diseases? Power lines, phone lines, down in trees? Can you deliver a baby? Where are you when the storms come pummeling our county with wind and rain, safe in your bed complaining about a siren?
What exactly do you do for our community except be a punk?

I suggest you get some education, you are not a shining example of being prepared for this kind of talk.

Back to wishing all of you the best, peace, b,

[n4rky]

Yes, it is delightfully out of step with the "system" for people to altruistically volunteer instead of acting out of personal interest. Bravo!

Indeed. When I see capitalists behaving with similar altruism, I will withdraw this objection. But as long as their first and often only principle is profit, all too often at the expense of society and of the environment, they are unworthy of altruism.

[Occidental Nutrition]

So, are you trying to say that people like Tezor or my husband, are trying to profit from being on the VOLUNTEER fire department.

Yea, thats what I think when he misses a whole day of paid work, or even days on similar storms like this in the winter or fires in the summer, or even 5 seperate calls in one day. He and others on the department, they do it for the community, that's why he is on the department, You may call that capitalism, but I call that simply trying to survive

They don't get much from being volunteers, but certainly do appreciate appreciation for what they do, not accusations like you have been giving.

Indeed. When I see capitalists behaving with similar altruism, I will withdraw this objection. But as long as their first and often only principle is profit, all too often at the expense of society and of the environment, they are unworthy of altruism.

[2Bwacco]

For the record, the group [that filed suit 3/22/10 seeking to bar relocation of the World War II era (70 year old) air-raid siren to the new fire station] has been trying to work out an amenable solution for about a year.

Meeting about fire station is Thursday April 8, 2010 5-6 pm:

This is a public notice published in the Press Democrat.

* * * * * * * *

New Fire Station, public meeting

From Press Democrat, Public Notice Section:

"Notice of Public Meeting
April 8, 2010 5-6 pm

As part of the Graton Fire Protection District's loan from the USDA to finance the new fire station, it is holding a public meeting to allow the community an opportunity to become acquainted with the proposed project and to comment on such items as economic and environmental impacts, service area, alternatives to the project, or any other issue identified by USDA Rural Development. The meeting will be held at 3205 Ross Road in Graton, For additional information please call (707) 823-5515.

2464102-Pub. Mar. 29, 2010 1 ti."

[Mrs. Wacco]

Before I respond, I want to make sure I understand what you're saying; it is absolutely not clear.

It sounds like you're taking issue with Tezor's volunteerism, which seems like an odd thing.

So before I start taking issue with you, if in fact you are objecting to the idea of volunteers performing civic duties and that this is not a sign of altruism (huh?), perhaps you can clarify what you're saying?

Thanks
Mrs Wacco

Indeed. When I see capitalists behaving with similar altruism, I will withdraw this objection. But as long as their first and often only principle is profit, all too often at the expense of society and of the environment, they are unworthy of altruism.

[Graton Fire]

Hi All,

Just got back from running 3 calls for trees blocking the roadway... crazy weather we're having.

New Year's Eve siren- just so everyone knows, we don't sound the siren at midnight on New Years... we don't hang out at the station waiting for a midnight call on any night (except on July 4th, for obvious reasons). However, we have received fire calls slightly before and after New Year's midnight in prior years; this may explain the confusion.

Fire chiefs from Occidental and Bodega Bay have both stated their challenges with pagers. I know that Camp Meeker has a siren, but I have not asked their chief about issues. There are other volunteer departments with sirens... I have never done a poll as there are probably 30+ just in Sonoma County. Forestville Fire decreased siren use as paid staffing increased. As Graton has reached 500 calls annually, making it the busiest all-volunteer department in Sonoma County, I can imagine a similar transition for Graton Fire as well. Fortunately, we have enough volunteers to get the job done and have not had to ask for paid firefighters to date.

Some background- This issue of the siren came up during the permit process and everyone was given an opportunity to be heard by the County Board of Zoning Adjustment (Jan/Feb 09). They unanimously approved the siren. This was appealed and the County Board of Supervisors heard the issue (Apr 09). They unanimously denied the appeal. No further appeal/action was filed. We did have three meetings after the appeal to discuss the siren.

The first meeting was excellent- the group really appreciated the pager problems (we had tracked them for a couple months prior to the Supervisor meeting and had two pages of recorded failures from the volunteers). At the second meeting the group asked to speak directly with radio experts. We held a third meeting with the Sonoma County [radio] communications agency, the Sonoma County Dispatch Center (REDCOM), and a vendor of radios and pagers. Subsequent to this meeting, I was informed that the group no longer wanted to meet with us as they had heard third-party that "one of our board members had made up his/her mind and nothing would change." I asked each board member, who confirmed they had made no statement to anyone. Regardless, we continue to research other options for improving the pager system - currently, we have asked county communications about an option where the pager could send back a confirmation tone acknowledging receipt of the emergency call. If it didn't receive the call, then the pager could re-activated. They are looking into this.

If the group of 5-7 people want to start meeting again, that is great. If they have different experts, pagers, and options to share, great let's hear them. The only compromise presented by the group that I can recall was to turn the siren off at night for 8-10 hours. Unfortunately, we have had problems even with pagers sitting in their chargers at night. If there was another solution proposed, I don't remember it, sorry... please refresh my memory.

Thursday's meeting at 5pm is required by the USDA as part of the loan application process. It ensures the community has a chance to ask questions... why we went with USDA? What makes them the best option? Why not get a regular mortgage or bond? etc. If people want to comment on the siren, that is fine. However, we told the USDA about the issue when we filed the preapplicatoin. In addition, the group filing the law suit also contacted the USDA directly to share their concerns.

Lastly, I am not planning on replying to all messages posted... I would rather meet in person and have a face-to-face dialogue. If the community would like a special meeting about the siren, please attend our board meeting on Tuesday 4/13/10 starting at 7:30pm. I am sure the board would be more than willing to schedule a special meeting for the community.

Last, last thing - Thank you to everyone, including this group of 7, who support us... your volunteer firefighters. At no time during this issue has there been any question about anyone's support for us or the new station.

Sincerely,

Bill Bullard, [volunteer] Deputy Fire Chief
Graton Fire Protection District

[Dixon]

Some plausible concerns have been raised about the siren, i.e., it's bothering colicky babies, people with sleep problems, etc. I sympathize with these folks, and I agree that it's really unnecessary to mark noon with a non-emergency siren blast.

However, re: emergency usage of the siren, I tend to defer to those with more expertise, so I'm swayed by the arguments of those such as Tezor, who argue convincingly that pagers etc. are not a sufficient substitute for the siren in the Graton area. It's hard to imagine why someone with Tezor's considerable relevant experience would take that position if it weren't true.

I don't think I want someone with the mentality of a three-year old responding to my emergency...Tezor's tone is unmistakably that of a temper tantrum, such as that thrown by a three-year old. On these grounds alone, I would question his judgment in an emergency situation. And for his lack of compassion, I would be afraid to entrust my life to his hands.

Let me suggest a partial solution to your concerns, n4rky: Perhaps you and those who feel similarly can come up with a legal document which you can sign which will exempt you (and your families?) from receiving these emergency services, so that when it's you who have had a car accident, heart attack, or whatever, the siren will not be sounded and you won't have to suffer the ministrations of those such as Tezor, whose judgment and compassion you deem deficient. Don't forget to carry a pager, so that (if you're conscious) you can page someone who meets your standards. This plan would decrease both the number of times the siren is sounded and the amount of money spent on emergency services. A win-win situation for everyone on both sides of the dispute.

[n4rky]

So, are you trying to say that people like Tezor or my husband, are trying to profit from being on the VOLUNTEER fire department.

If you insist on misunderstanding my words, you might very well succeed. Rather, I am saying the opposite. I am saying the capitalists should demonstrate the altruism that volunteer firefighters do. While I'll acknowledge my previous posting was perhaps not as crystal clear as might be nice, this is a far more consistent reading of my words.

[n4rky]

I suggest you get some education, you are not a shining example of being prepared for this kind of talk.

The professors in my Ph.D. program would be amused to see this. I'm a doctoral student at California Institute of Integral Studies in the Transformative Studies program. I have a M.A. in speech communication and a B.A. in mass communication, both from CSU East Bay in Hayward.

It was you who never seriously answered a question and never effectively defended your position. It is not incumbent upon me to answer these questions. You as the advocate for a position are responsible for defending it. And you failed, throwing a temper tantrum in the process. Temper tantrums do not count as scholarly debate.

You left the real work to Imagery. And while the relative elevations (s)he cites are not in themselves persuasive, the difficulty of getting (capitalist) corporations to provide effective service even for emergency services is a salient point.

You have some serious growing up to do when you admit to losing your temper and then accuse the other fellow of being ill-educated. Shame on you.

[n4rky]

Regardless, we continue to research other options for improving the pager system - currently, we have asked county communications about an option where the pager could send back a confirmation tone acknowledging receipt of the emergency call. If it didn't receive the call, then the pager could re-activated. They are looking into this.

My understanding is that pagers contain receivers but not transmitters. It is also conceivable that even if a pager included a transmitter, it would lack sufficient power to transmit an acknowledgment in many circumstances, leading to a rather ridiculous situation where yes, your poor beleaguered firefighter got the page from a more powerful central transmitter, but the system keeps resending it.

Suffice it to say, I like the idea. But my own experience with radio is that antenna placement tends to be worth a lot more than anything else. And for that, you need your vendors to provide a level of service appropriate for your application. You're an emergency service for crying out loud; it's not an unreasonable request.

[tezor]

N4rky,

It may be that you overestimate your communication skills, if so many misinterpret your mumblings. You have not responded to almost anything I've said, except to hand pick a couple of things. You dismiss patients who stated they were comforted by the horn, why, because it doesn't fit your story?

These folowing quotes are your's, what have they got to do with this discussion we were having? Why do others not understand your blather? You just wander around any point the doesn't work for you. You ignore anything that is solid, and focus on whatever strikes your fancy in the ethereal.

Check your meds, get someone to adjust them. Now I'm only an EMT, not a doctor, but I think you should go see a psyco-proctologist, it seems like your head is up your ass.

Given that we live in an exchange economy, this seems only reasonable to me. Firefighters respond to commercial as well as to residential locations. For firefighters to be volunteers strikes me as a rather bizarre subsidy for this economic system.

Indeed. When I see capitalists behaving with similar altruism, I will withdraw this objection. But as long as their first and often only principle is profit, all too often at the expense of society and of the environment, they are unworthy of altruism. Please get back on track if you'd like to have a discussion. Is this below you? Please learn to respond to people, it makes community work, or do you even care? You seem like the A-typical over educated moron who takes himself very seriously, and thinks the world should as well. Well sorry buddy, go back to checking facts, which you seem rather short on. Do your own work, mom's not here. Like I said, get a real education, in life, not school, something that might help you communicate, maybe even in living in a world with real people. Your pieces of paper don't mean much, it's the way you work in the world that counts. You seem to thrive on contentiousness, I do understand that. But you don't seem to have a way through it to actually communicate. We don't insist upon mis-understanding your words, they are not crafted well, they don't have clear context, you are rambling, got it? Another detail, some pagers do contain transmitters; and with the repeaters, they can talk to dispatch. Of course they can't if they are in one of the difficult areas out in the west county, they would need someone to relay for them...However we don't have antenna's at our houses, just the pager. No one in the fire service typically has one at home. Got that? Ok, to all once again, so sorry this wandered so far afield from it's intentions. This is a discussion about a siren and whether or not it is needed in this century for communication. I stand by all of my statements, but won't continue with the contentiousness. Stepping back the whole thing was not what I had worked toward/hoped for. Best wishes, b

[n4rky]

You dismiss patients who stated they were comforted by the horn, why, because it doesn't fit your story?

And you dismiss the elderly, the sick, and desperate parents with colicky babies. The patients you refer to might find relief in the siren a very few times in their lives. The people I'm referring to have to live with the siren on a daily basis. On the compassion front, you aren't winning this argument.

And that should also answer those who claim people shouldn't have moved in to places where the siren already was: very few people choose illness. Very few people choose to get old (but it happens to all of us). And I can't imagine a parent who wants their infant to be miserable.

These folowing quotes are your's, what have they got to do with this discussion we were having? Why do others not understand your blather? You just wander around any point the doesn't work for you. You ignore anything that is solid, and focus on whatever strikes your fancy in the etheral.

You might find them a little less ethereal when you start answering calls for drunk driving accidents involving people driving from one winery/tasting room to the next. We already have one of these at the intersection of Highway 116 and Graton Road. Another--if it can survive various challenges--is to be built at the corner of Highway 116 and Occidental Road. And I'm told that a whole series of them, all requiring zoning changes, are planned for our own (not so) charming attempt to replicate the Napa Valley.

The wineries expect to be making money hand over fist, while you provide their fire protection service and medical response for free. But hey, that's capitalism for you.

Check your meds, get someone to adjust them. Now I'm only an EMT, not a doctor, but I think you should go see a psyco-protologist, it seems like your head is up your ass.

These sorts of comments only reinforce my previous impression of you. You have a lot of work of your own to do before you will in any way prove competent to advise others about their lives.

[2Bwacco]

When folks are over-worked and sleep-deprived many things suffer, including their ability to spell. (Perhaps also their ability to make good decisions that save lives. This applies to EVERYONE, not just volunteer firefighters.)

"...I'm only an EMT, not a doctor, but I think you should go see a psyco-protologist..."

Here is what the Sonoma County Fire Chief has to say:

"...Sonoma County Fire Chief Mark Aston said he believes sirens are outdated.

"Technology has evolved where we have high reliability with pagers, and it has diminished the value of the siren," Aston said. ..."

[tezor]

Ok, so sorry, I should have used spell check, I do make mistakes, every day just to prove my humanity. Thanks for including all of us, it's nice to be included.

And as far as that Sonoma County Fire Chief, well let me just say, I don't agree with him completely. It has diminished the need for sirens, not displaced the need. He should talk to west county department personel, but only if he wants an earfull...

When folks are over-worked and sleep-deprived many things suffer, including their ability to spell. (Perhaps also their ability to make good decisions that save lives. This applies to EVERYONE, not just volunteer firefighters.)




Here is what the Sonoma County Fire Chief has to say:

"...Sonoma County Fire Chief Mark Aston said he believes sirens are outdated.

"Technology has evolved where we have high reliability with pagers, and it has diminished the value of the siren," Aston said. ..."

[buddhafrog]

Wow...n4rky...you sir are ridiculous. We have a siren here in Camp Meeker as well and it IS needed. You are painting a picture that Graton is the only place using a siren. There are plenty of us around that use the siren and for good reason. Don't you ever run outside to play catch with your kid, or walk over to the store, or do anything with a certain kind of spotanity? You may also find yourself without your pager. Just to remind you we do this as volunteers, I don't always have a pager on me. And in MOST places the pager does not work. Our Siren is needed. Having driven through the outskirts of your town I know the same is true there.
Perhaps you should move back to San Fran or where ever your city slicker attitude came from. Around West County we are neighbors helping neighobrs. Perhaps someday you could join us instead of fight us.

[n4rky]

Wow...n4rky...you sir are ridiculous. We have a siren here in Camp Meeker as well and it IS needed. You are painting a picture that Graton is the only place using a siren.

The Press Democrat story on which I relied for my initial impression of the situation of siren use around the county obviously painted an incomplete picture.

There are plenty of us around that use the siren and for good reason. Don't you ever run outside to play catch with your kid, or walk over to the store, or do anything with a certain kind of spotanity? You may also find yourself without your pager. Just to remind you we do this as volunteers, I don't always have a pager on me. And in MOST places the pager does not work. Our Siren is needed.

In Camp Meeker, I can certainly see why.

Having driven through the outskirts of your town I know the same is true there.

Nonsense. In contrast to the terrain around Camp Meeker, the terrain in Graton is gentle. There are hills to the west and east, but they are nowhere near as steep as in Camp Meeker or in Occidental. And in contrast to the canyon which characterizes Occidental, Camp Meeker, and the road which connects them, Graton has no canyons but lies largely on a plain between the hills. You are comparing apples and oranges.

Perhaps you should move back to San Fran or where ever your city slicker attitude came from. Around West County we are neighbors helping neighobrs. Perhaps someday you could join us instead of fight us.

And perhaps you should use your eyes before generalizing from Camp Meeker to Graton in two ways:

1. Actually reading the entire thread, in which you would see that there are more issues in contention here than the feasibility of the existing pager system
2. noticing the stark differences in terrain

[tezor]

N4rky

You sir, are unclear on the concept of communication.

Did you understand that I've been doing this for 30 years, yet you don't think I've seen the horrors of drunk driving? Do you want me to tell you what I've seen? The peoples lives ended, ruined, and the incidental suffering that surrounds these incidents? What universe do you live in?

No compassion for those that suffer from the siren? I align towards the buddhists on compassion, while I must have it for all(even you), life is suffering.

Yet you are wrong again, I do not dismiss them, I sincerely wish they didn't have to suffer through anything, that that baby will sleep, that the ill will get care (but not from me right?) I repeat the needs/emergency of the community trumps the one person, but then again not every one is as important as you. Opps theres that contentiousness again.

So now I'm a dupe of the culture? Because I volunteer to support my community and the folks in it, it demeans me? Jeezzz buddy somebody ought to take away the shovel you are digging your hole with...look up community, you may be part of the problem with this world, your sh#t stinks like everyone else, just smell it sometime.

Ya know, if you find this culture so despicable, what are you doing here? What is is that you do, that adds to society? If it is so difficult for you to find people at your level here, why stay? Personally, I'd suggest you start looking in the gutter for your kindred spirits. Other than as an irritant, and a waste of my time, what purpose do you serve, the prince of darkness?

And to keep this in perspective I'll paraphrase a line from "Air America" "I never said I was a good buddhist." It's hard to have compassion for you, but I'll suffer through the trying.

[Larysa]

Dear Mr. Tezor!

First of all, thank you for volunteering as a firefighter!

Secondly, when I first moved to the area near the firestation a few years ago, the siren was overwhelming. Once I understood what it was for, I am very grateful for it and stop whenever I hear it to send non-denominational blessings to the people needing your assistance and to the firefighters responding to the call.

Each time I get a little choked up that someone would volunteer to be on call - ready to drop everything and anything and go out to face very heart-braking and grim situations; especially on cold and rainy nights.

I moved here from San Diego and the Graton volunteer fire department has an exceptionally fast response time. I LOVE living here, because the siren reminds me that heaven forbid I was needed assistance, you guys would be there in a few heart beats.

I think the folks who filed the suit to stop the siren, should stop and think instead. I suggest they withdraw the suit and give it a rest. Perhaps they could donate their time and money to the new firestation for improved technology and/or volunteer to staff the station on a 7/24 basis.

Thank you again, Mr. Tezor and all the other fire-station volunteers!

Hugs,

Larysa

PS - Ignore all the knuckle-heads. In Ukrainian, we call them 'kapoosta-heads'! (Kapoosta means cabbage.) So now when you read their stupid postings, you can laugh and say: "They're just a kapoosta-head!" :)

[pbrinton]

The professors in my Ph.D. program would be amused to see this. I'm a doctoral student at California Institute of Integral Studies in the Transformative Studies program.

...an online course which advertises itself thus:

PhD in Transformative Studies

Scholarship, Creativity, Self-Inquiry

The primary focus of the doctoral program in Transformative Studies (TSD) is to develop thought-leaders who are committed to exploring leading-edge issues in innovative ways that combine scholarship, creativity, and self-inquiry.

The program places great value on developing the ability to participate in the scholarly discourse through publication, and on the importance of viewing academic inquiry as an opportunity for personal and social transformation, while grounding transformative processes in academic depth, rigor, and imagination.

The program focuses on the development of the following capacities:

• Making an original transdisciplinary research contribution in a chosen area of inquiry.

• Engaging in inquiry as a creative and collaborative process in the context of a community of learners.

• Engaging inquiry as an integral, spiritual, and transformative process of personal and social transformation.Applying one’s research to real-world problems, articulating and embodying one’s values, and skillfully putting theory into practice.

(from their website)

May I suggest you submit this thread to your professors and report back their comments on how well you are exemplifying their teaching? Inquiring minds eagerly await their response.

Patrick Brinton

[n4rky]

May I suggest you submit this thread to your professors and report back their comments on how well you are exemplifying their teaching? Inquiring minds eagerly await their response.

This is in fact being done.

I have copied my latest blog posting about all this which includes a prominent link to this discussion into our internal discussion system. Two of my professors in a class that advocates a (cooperative) partnership model of civilization over an hierarchical dominator model will indeed review that posting. The trouble here is that this discussion best illustrates how a nominally partnership system (volunteer firefighting) is transformed into a system of domination.

[Barry]

This is in fact being done.

Excellent! Will you confirm that they have read this thread and let us know what they have to say?

[n4rky]

Excellent! Will you confirm that they have read this thread and let us know what they have to say?

I cannot promise that they will read the thread. Further, I have to obtain permission prior to sharing their response as there is a privacy rule in effect and I also cannot promise that they will grant permission. But I have passed along the request.

[Imagery]

I cannot promise that they will read the thread. Further, I have to obtain permission prior to sharing their response as there is a privacy rule in effect and I also cannot promise that they will grant permission.

Gee, that's pretty convenient. So much for their ability to use their degrees to register and communicate their response themselves, huh? :rolleyes:

[n4rky]

Gee, that's pretty convenient. So much for their ability to use their degrees to register and communicate their response themselves, huh? :rolleyes:

Yes, and I fully understand (and even respect) your skepticism. I would point out, however, that neither of them live in this area and unlike myself, they are fully employed.

[Imagery]

The trouble here is that this discussion best illustrates how a nominally partnership system (volunteer firefighting) is transformed into a system of domination.

Since you're a Doctoral candidate in communications (as I understand your post regarding your education), perhaps you can show us how the post, at least the original topic, can demonstrate anything of the sort?

Why not have the minority (who have filed suit) join forces with the fire department and file suit against the county? As you've suggested, perhaps that would force the county to erect numerous towers along the mountaintops and ridges of western Sonoma County so that the pager/cellular/communications radio signals can reach everywhere throughout the west county?

Oh, while you're at it, these minority, since they've proven their willingness to spend time in court, why not convince them to pay their lawyers to defend against the numerous lawsuits which will be filed by the tin-foil hat committees (i.e. the free Wi-Fi downtown will fry my brain people) who will spend their last dimes suing to block construction of these needed towers?

The point boils down to this:

The siren is a proven method by which volunteer firefighters are alerted to the need for them to save lives/property/etc. Until there is a 100% proven method, which can consistently provide the alerts needed, the siren should stay. If the minority want peace and quiet, then let them HELP the volunteers in assembling some repeater towers in places where the signal will reach everywhere in the West County.


Now, I'd still like to see how this "nominal(ly?) partnership system" of volunteer firefighting is turning into a "system of domination". Perhaps it's how the vocal minority is working so diligently to DOMINATE the safety of the rest of the community. Let's hope that it doesn't wind up costing the wrong people.

[n4rky]

Since you're a Doctoral candidate in communications (as I understand your post regarding your education),

You might want to try reading a little more carefully. That is not what I said. And believe it or not, I do tire of repeating myself.

perhaps you can show us how the post, at least the original topic, can demonstrate anything of the sort?

Any what of what sort? Perhaps you'd like to try this again in the morning. Because I don't know what you're referring to.

Why not have the minority (who have filed suit) join forces with the fire department and file suit against the county? As you've suggested, perhaps that would force the county to erect numerous towers along the mountaintops and ridges of western Sonoma County so that the pager/cellular/communications radio signals can reach everywhere throughout the west county?

You'd have to ask them. My intent here has simply been to call attention to a couple of points which firefighters seemingly have been reluctant to address. For this, I have been targeted with temper tantrums, insults, and patronization.

So what I would suggest to you all is that cooperation is a two-way street. You have been terribly insensitive to any concerns but your own. You (though I would at least partially exclude your somewhat better-mannered deputy Fire Chief from this statement) have refused to seriously consider alternative solutions. And here you magnify the problem from Graton, with its somewhat different terrain to all of west Sonoma County.

I'm not trying to solve the problem in Occidental or Camp Meeker. In those places, with their somewhat steeper and more difficult terrain, I accept that a siren may indeed be the only option. But your attempt to draw those places into this is yet more evidence of the way you have, and I am assuming you have been every bit as obstinate with others as you have been with me, treated people who really aren't being all that unreasonable.

There's a form of bullying that isn't physical. It essentially relies on shouting down opposition, making people feel that to speak up is to appear disloyal to the community. Your persistent references to people who oppose you as a minority, despite what I suspect is a complete lack of empirical evidence to support that claim, in combination with the treatment I have received here demonstrates a form of intimidation tactic that will indeed lead a great many people will simply shut up a lot of the time. And it protects you, most of the time, from having to confront serious issues, from having to answer hard questions.

But as you see, I don't respond the way that many people do. And apparently the folks who have filed suit have also chosen a different path. You might want to consider your own behavior as possibly leading people to feel they have no other recourse than the courts.

Oh, while you're at it, these minority, since they've proven their willingness to spend time in court, why not convince them to pay their lawyers to defend against the numerous lawsuits which will be filed by the tin-foil hat committees (i.e. the free Wi-Fi downtown will fry my brain people) who will spend their last dimes suing to block construction of these needed towers?

Unfortunately, it happens just often enough that the people in tin foil hats have a point. Also unfortunately, I seem not to have bookmarked an article that illustrates the problem. As I recall, while about 50 percent of studies on cell phone hazards indicate there is no hazard, if one segregates the studies by whether or not they are industry-sponsored, about 75 percent of the studies which are not industry-sponsored suggest there may be a problem.

So antenna placement needs to be done carefully. The power of a transmission decreases with the square of the distance (which I assume is also the reason that antenna location is so often a more important factor in successful transmission than transmitter power). I'm inclined to think it is a bad idea to locate cell phone towers--and I'm gathering, perhaps incorrectly, that pagers are now operating off cell phone systems--too close to places where people are, a lot of the time.

As the terrain surrounding Graton is largely rural, it strikes me that this is a solvable problem. But as with the siren, the approach needs not to be the one you so readily rely upon, that you know it all, that you have all the answers, and that you effectively bully anyone who challenges your views.

The point boils down to this:

The siren is a proven method by which volunteer firefighters are alerted to the need for them to save lives/property/etc. Until there is a 100% proven method, which can consistently provide the alerts needed, the siren should stay. If the minority want peace and quiet, then let them HELP the volunteers in assembling some repeater towers in places where the signal will reach everywhere in the West County.

Based on how I have been treated here, I would have to say you have shown yourselves unreceptive to such cooperation.

Now, I'd still like to see how this "nominal(ly?) partnership system" of volunteer firefighting is turning into a "system of domination". Perhaps it's how the vocal minority is working so diligently to DOMINATE the safety of the rest of the community. Let's hope that it doesn't wind up costing the wrong people.

It is in every word you, your colleagues (except, as I said, your deputy fire chief), and your supporters have written.

[n4rky]

At this point, I think I have said all that I can say on this issue. So I am unsubscribing from this thread. Should my professors choose to respond, I still have the numerous email notifications I have received in regard to this thread, and I will find my way back.

[Imagery]

Since you're a Doctoral candidate in communications (as I understand your post regarding your education)...

You might want to try reading a little more carefully. That is not what I said. And believe it or not, I do tire of repeating myself.

Here's what you said in reference to your education:

The professors in my Ph.D. program would be amused to see this. I'm a doctoral student at California Institute of Integral Studies in the Transformative Studies program. I have a M.A. in speech communication and a B.A. in mass communication, both from CSU East Bay in Hayward.

Strange - you're in a Ph.D. program, you claim to be a doctoral student and I'm assuming you're going to attempt to complete this program...which would make you a doctoral (degree) candidate...