7 idiots on Bikes at Ragle park this Sat Afternoon.

About 20 minutes ago I was walking with my young kid on the paved path around Ragle park. A biker came screaming towards us on the hill that occurs after a partly blind turn past the tennis courts. You didn't slow down even though I was glaring at you and getting ready to jump in your way in case my kid didn't get out of your way in time. You yelled that there were 6 other bikes behind you (as if you were somehow royalty or owned the park). The woman behind you was going almost as fast and I loudly said "Why so damned fast !?!" As the rest of your group (who were going at a decently safe speed passed I told them they needed to talk to you as you were going too fast).

My message : YOU ARE F****** INCONSIDERATE SELFISH ENTITLED JACKASS ! THE REST OF YOUR GROUP ARE F******* A******S FOR NOT YELLING AT YOU TO SLOW DOWN ! The speed limit is 15 mph which you and the second in line were breaking and, regardless, you were going too fast for safety for the conditions in the park (blind corners, lots of families strolling, multiple fitness station stops etc). I complained to the park ranger and I wasn't the only one. Honestly, do you the f****** IQ of a Boston Fern or were you dropped on the head as a kid ?!?

Side note- I would have reacted far more confrontationally had my young kid not been with me. Anyone up on legalities as to what my options were ? I strongly considered physically stopping the guy and doing a citizen's arrest or some such.

I love biking and do it often buts a******s like this that give it a bad name. There are PLENTY of places in the county where you can go like a bat out of hell that don't involve imperiling kids and families.

Sal

Unfortunately this seems to be a regular occurance on the public County paths and trails. I walk regularly on the West County Trail and I am shocked by the bicyclists who use these paths as speedways. I called the County and asked what I could do and the woman I spoke to was apologetic and explained they didn't have enough staff to monitor the parks. She then went on to say that if I asked people to slow down that I could get a rude response.
Well, she was correct. So the next time I had a person who came speeding towards me (even though I was trying to get my disabled dog and my other dog out of her way) she proceeded to tell me that I was F***ING IDIOT and to get out of her way, after I asked her politely to slow down.
Yikes. I was shocked. Who are these Lycra/Spandex riders on racing road bikes who think they are entiled to break the law by speeding and putting childern, animals and others in danger should we dare to get in their way.
Citizens arrest seem appropriate but I would need some help. Take care on these paths until something can be done about this!

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Posted in reply to the post by taishon:

About 20 minutes ago I was walking with my young kid on the paved path around Ragle park. A biker came screaming towards us on the hill that occurs after a partly blind turn past the tennis courts. You didn't slow down even though I was glaring at you and getting ready to jump in your way in case my kid didn't get out of your way in time. You yelled that there were 6 other bikes behind you (as if you were somehow royalty or owned the park). The woman behind you was going almost as fast and I loudly said "Why so damned fast !?!" As the rest of your group (who were going at a decently safe speed passed I told them they needed to talk to you as you were going too fast).

My message : YOU ARE F****** INCONSIDERATE SELFISH ENTITLED JACKASS ! THE REST OF YOUR GROUP ARE F******* A******S FOR NOT YELLING AT YOU TO SLOW DOWN ! The speed limit is 15 mph which you and the second in line were breaking and, regardless, you were going too fast for safety for the conditions in the park (blind corners, lots of families strolling, multiple fitness station stops etc). I complained to the park ranger and I wasn't the only one. Honestly, do you the f****** IQ of a Boston Fern or were you dropped on the head as a kid ?!?

Side note- I would have reacted far more confrontationally had my young kid not been with me. Anyone up on legalities as to what my options were ? I strongly considered physically stopping the guy and doing a citizen's arrest or some such.

I love biking and do it often buts a******s like this that give it a bad name. There are PLENTY of places in the county where you can go like a bat out of hell that don't involve imperiling kids and families.

Sal

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I posted on the facebook for the Sonoma County Bike Coalition and the Santa Rosa Cycling Club. There is no excuse for how you were treated or how those people biked today. Bikers are supposed to be better than the average motorist with anger control issues..not some entitled selfish a-holes. I would like to get out some incident reporting system for both crazy a-hole motorists and crazy a-hole bikers like they have done in other cities;

https://www.platewire.com/
https://www.zapatag.com/

They had a reporting system, I forget which city, where people could report bad drivers and, if an individual driver got a lot of hits, the police would pay the driver a visit. Wish something like this could be used for bicycles.
Sal

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Posted in reply to the post by wildarabella:

Unfortunately this seems to be a regular occurance on the public County paths and trails. I walk regularly on the West County Trail and I am shocked by the bicyclists who use these paths as speedways. I called the County and asked what I could do and the woman I spoke to was apologetic and explained they didn't have enough staff to monitor the parks. She then went on to say that if I asked people to slow down that I could get a rude response.
Well, she was correct. So the next time I had a person who came speeding towards me (even though I was trying to get my disabled dog and my other dog out of her way) she proceeded to tell me that I was F***ING IDIOT and to get out of her way, after I asked her politely to slow down.
Yikes. I was shocked. Who are these Lycra/Spandex riders on racing road bikes who think they are entiled to break the law by speeding and putting childern, animals and others in danger should we dare to get in their way.
Citizens arrest seem appropriate but I would need some help. Take care on these paths until something can be done about this!

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Yup Bikers are getting cocky these days. The one that kills me are those spandex clad bikers swerving all over a two lane road in front of your car as you try to find a non blind spot to pass. You wont see them riding fast they just slowly peddle swerving in front of your car as if they are daring you to bump them. They wont pull to the right to offer you any room they belong square in the middle of the road. It makes me want to throw a stick threw their spokes.

As a biker, I don't like to put all bikers in the rude category. That being said, I am one of the more polite ones riding and thats just plain wrong. Ideally, I should be one of the least polite and I should be the base line. I have seen far more incidents of rudenss coming from bikers than coming from motorists and it goes even higher when you look at per capita figures. As this county becomes more bike-friendly, it shouldn't become more motorist/pedestrian hostile.

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Posted in reply to the post by Attic:

Yup Bikers are getting cocky these days. The one that kills me are those spandex clad bikers swerving all over a two lane road in front of your car as you try to find a non blind spot to pass. You wont see them riding fast they just slowly peddle swerving in front of your car as if they are daring you to bump them. They wont pull to the right to offer you any room they belong square in the middle of the road. It makes me want to throw a stick threw their spokes.

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BTW- I love biking but I would die before being seen in spandex :0)

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Posted in reply to the post by Attic:

Yup Bikers are getting cocky these days. The one that kills me are those spandex clad bikers swerving all over a two lane road in front of your car as you try to find a non blind spot to pass. You wont see them riding fast they just slowly peddle swerving in front of your car as if they are daring you to bump them. They wont pull to the right to offer you any room they belong square in the middle of the road. It makes me want to throw a stick threw their spokes.

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I wonder if it would help to set up a time when bikers might frequent this path, and have a camera
or better yet, a camcorder to capture what's happening. These offenders might not want their faces
posted. I think it's a good idea for "driving texters" also.

With so many of us having camera phones, it's just a matter of planning and intention. We have no
idea who may be taking pictures of us at any moment when we're in public, but this could be a valuable
service, and safer than a "citizen's arrest" which could lead to violence.

But it takes a time commitment and a willingness to do these things. YouTube is evidence that lots of
people make the time to record what's important to them to share.

I think that policing with cameras is just way to far. People just need to learn what is polite and safe. Now if you had said taser a biker once in a while I would probably be down with that. Due to the self entitled comments of one cycleist on this thread, I now have to agree that cameras may be one solution. You cant talk to these spandex clad idiots as they are not getting enough blood to their brains. So since its obvious that stupidity runs rampant in this breed, I have to agree that they need policing.

You know you have a good point, about policing with cameras, but they provide valuable evidence in lots of
situations, as in if someone see another person "tasering" someone, that would be a perfect time to snap
several pictures or a video of the abuser and the victim.

Most of us have a cell phone with us much of the time. But we may not always have a weapon, like a taser with us.
But since you've offered that as a solution, maybe more of us will equip ourselves, and prepare to do harm to those "idiots".

So you bikers out there, some of us are getting ready for you, ...thanks to Attic. If anyone does get tased, or hears of it, you know where to start your investigation, right here on WaccoBB, with a member of the conscious community.

Hopefully someone with a camera gets a video of it.....for You Tube.

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Posted in reply to the post by Attic:

I think that policing with cameras is just way to far. People just need to learn what is polite and safe. Now if you had said taser a biker once in a while I would probably be down with that. :wink:

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Tazers kill. Not a good response.

Cameras, nets, bolas?

Even though pepper spray has a very high, justifiably negative profile since the overzealous and abusive police responses to Occupy last fall, it is less lethal than a tazer or any other stun gun, let alone batons and such. It is legal to carry pepper spray for personal defense.

But in matters of misdemeanor and/or felonious assault, who initiates, and who can prove they were defending themselves from attack, are key. Very tricky stuff. And if caught and prosecuted, an assault charge is no joke.

Good luck getting the cops to pursue an assault investigation though. Based on my experience with a road rage attack in the spring of '06, they aren't particularly interested in making an effort. You practically have to drag them along at each step, their disinterest is palpable. (In this particular case I'm referring to the SRPD.)

There are less aggressive ways to signal ones alarm and outrage at aggressive behavior from others. Shouting. Whistles. Airhorns. Creating a culture of opprobrium and shame. Banging on a metal pot with a stick. The options are myriad.

A first step might be to arrange a meeting with local bicycle groups, maybe including the relevant authorities (Parks, Electeds, Law Enforcement). That's how Bike Coalitions try to address dangerous behavior from vehicle drivers. I don't see why they can't be negotiated with in the same way they try to address their own needs and interests.

WISDOM IS ALIVE! Thank you Miles!

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Posted in reply to the post by Mad" Miles;148370][SIZE=3][FONT=times new roman]
[URL="https://www.aclunc.org/issues/criminal_justice/police_practices/stun_gun_fallacy_how_the_lack_of_taser_regulation_endangers_lives.shtml:

Tazers kill[/URL]. Not a good response.

Cameras, nets, bolas?

Even though pepper spray has a very high, justifiably negative profile since the overzealous and abusive police responses to Occupy last fall, it is less lethal than a tazer or any other stun gun, let alone batons and such. It is legal to carry pepper spray for personal defense.

But in matters of misdemeanor and/or felonious assault, who initiates, and who can prove they were defending themselves from attack, are key. Very tricky stuff. And if caught and prosecuted, an assault charge is no joke.

Good luck getting the cops to pursue an assault investigation though. Based on my experience with a road rage attack in the spring of '06, they aren't particularly interested in making an effort. You practically have to drag them along at each step, their disinterest is palpable. (In this particular case I'm referring to the SRPD.)

There are less aggressive ways to signal ones alarm and outrage at aggressive behavior from others. Shouting. Whistles. Airhorns. Creating a culture of opprobrium and shame. Banging on a metal pot with a stick. The options are myriad.

A first step might be to arrange a meeting with local bicycle groups, maybe including the relevant authorities (Parks, Electeds, Law Enforcement). That's how Bike Coalitions try to address dangerous behavior from vehicle drivers. I don't see why they can't be negotiated with in the same way they try to address their own needs and interests.
[/FONT][/SIZE]

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Tasers can kill, but that was a joke. You all are wound way to tight. I was just trying to get a smile out of you. Look I don't think we need to use Camera's and the Taser bit was just for laughs. Gently ask the person to slow down and if they show any aggression leave. I don't think we need hall monitors for our local trails and roads, just a few Men to tell the Boys to slow down. Now if we ever experience something like a mugging on these trails then its time for cameras, tasers and the police. For people speeding on bikes a calm and reasonable request to slow down should do the trick. As for a solution to the weaving spandex guy in the middle of the road my suggestion is to use the pit maneuver. :wink: Notice the smiley face at the end of the last statement, that means it is humor and not to be taken serious by the hall monitors.

We need the cameras here. https://www.waccobb.net/forums/showt...ide-Ragle-Park
Also the recent string of thefts from cars would be a much better spot to use those methods
https://www.waccobb.net/forums/showthread.php?87491-Thefts-from-unlocked-cars-in-Sebastopol-Lock-Your-Car!-%28&p=147835#post147835

Airhorns seriously. Wisdom is not alive. look it was fairly obvious that the taser statement was a joke from the way it was phrased, but Airhorns!!!! I wonder if the guy that got air-horned would have a heart attack before the one that was Tased. If you think people are walking these trails with metal pots to bang on well maybe we do need to video tape. You said the first step is to arrange a meeting with local bicycle groups, and authorities! I beg to differ.. the first step is to ask the bikers to slow down.

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Posted in reply to the post by Mad" Miles;148370][SIZE=3][FONT=times new roman]
[URL="https://www.aclunc.org/issues/criminal_justice/police_practices/stun_gun_fallacy_how_the_lack_of_taser_regulation_endangers_lives.shtml:

Tazers kill[/URL]. Not a good response.

Cameras, nets, bolas?

Even though pepper spray has a very high, justifiably negative profile since the overzealous and abusive police responses to Occupy last fall, it is less lethal than a tazer or any other stun gun, let alone batons and such. It is legal to carry pepper spray for personal defense.

But in matters of misdemeanor and/or felonious assault, who initiates, and who can prove they were defending themselves from attack, are key. Very tricky stuff. And if caught and prosecuted, an assault charge is no joke.

Good luck getting the cops to pursue an assault investigation though. Based on my experience with a road rage attack in the spring of '06, they aren't particularly interested in making an effort. You practically have to drag them along at each step, their disinterest is palpable. (In this particular case I'm referring to the SRPD.)

There are less aggressive ways to signal ones alarm and outrage at aggressive behavior from others. Shouting. Whistles. Airhorns. Creating a culture of opprobrium and shame. Banging on a metal pot with a stick. The options are myriad.

A first step might be to arrange a meeting with local bicycle groups, maybe including the relevant authorities (Parks, Electeds, Law Enforcement). That's how Bike Coalitions try to address dangerous behavior from vehicle drivers. I don't see why they can't be negotiated with in the same way they try to address their own needs and interests.
[/FONT][/SIZE]

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I won't debate who's more thin-skinned here Attic. Chalk it up to the lack of affect in text communication when it comes to telling who is joking or who isn't. I will point out the irony of defending oneself by saying, "I was kidding!!!", but treating everything anybody else types as if were all stone serious.

Whether, I was kidding!!!, or not, my reply was in the light of how to deal with bullies. People who shout that other people are idiots, or who shout, "Get the F#ck out of the way!", to pedestrians on public paths and trails, are bullies. Especially if the pedestrians include young children.

Bullies do not respond well to courtesy or polite requests. I say this based on experience in the Punk Rock scene in SoCA from '77-'84 and from many other life experiences. Bullies respond to threat escalation. Escalation to a point they do not want to have to deal with.

It's a fine dance. Bullies always justify their actions as defensive, even when they're the aggressors. What is appropriate escalation when dealing with a bully is very complex. It varies from time to place to who and what the bully is. What works one place won't work everywhere. Maybe, here in "Town", only Nerf weapons should be countenanced.

So, if one can accept that this is a situation where bullying needs to be curbed, a discussion of moderate, appropriate threat escalation is in order. If we lived in a society where no one had a self-centered attitude of entitlement and treated everyone else with care, courtesy and respect, this entire discussion would not be taking place.

But we don't, so some of us, in a speculative discussion of possible responses that might help, are, it seems to me, justified in discussing options.

Of course the first step should be non-violent communication and respectful discourse. That's a given. From the initial post, it seems to me that that set of options was off the table.

Plus, I've always wanted to try my hand at throwing a Bola. There aren't a lot of Rheas or Agoutis running along the Rodota Trail, so smug, aggressive, self-aggrandized bicyclists immersed in solopsistic entitlement who consider terrorism a means to securing their right of way, could present a good opportunity to try my hand!

Take that last as a joke or a sincere expression, as you wish.

As for an appropriately targeted use of an airhorn causing a self-entitled Yuppie in spandex to have a heart attack after displaying aggressive anti-social behavior... Hmmm, let me savor the image....

For anyone else considering that option, I recommend a good set of earplugs. One that allows hearing so when the aristocrat shouts, "Get the F#ck out of my way!!!", one can hear them well enough to know what to do.

We're not all Eloi out here in the West County. Some of us have experience with Morlocks.

The self-entitled spandex clad Yuppie having an air-horn induced heart attack is indeed funny. My thoughts on policing the trail go along with the reasoning in this video, that there is already to much policing as it is. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nBiJ...6eYTAAAAAAALAA I think many people at first sign that they have been called on their unsafe practice get the message, those that don't are a problem but are by no means a majority. If it is their intent to bully, some of us will not put up with it and they will find them selves with tough opponents.

Ahhh yes, the bike-nazis. Nothing but trouble.

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Posted in reply to the post by wildarabella:

So the next time I had a person who came speeding towards me (even though I was trying to get my disabled dog and my other dog out of her way) she proceeded to tell me that I was F***ING IDIOT and to get out of her way, after I asked her politely to slow down.
Yikes. I was shocked. Who are these Lycra/Spandex riders on racing road bikes who think they are entiled to break the law by speeding and putting childern, animals and others in danger should we dare to get in their way.

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Me thinks it's:wrestle: spandex covered 'roid rage.

I am a Spin teacher at Coach's Corner and will definitely share these comments with my students.
Many ride on & off road and though I can't imagine that they are part of the Ragle 7, hopefully
they will reflect on these comments and share them with other bikers.
Share the Road (and trails)!
Amy Contardi

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Posted in reply to the post by taishon:

About 20 minutes ago I was walking with my young kid on the paved path around Ragle park. A biker came screaming towards us on the hill that occurs after a partly blind turn past the tennis courts. You didn't slow down even though I was glaring at you and getting ready to jump in your way in case my kid didn't get out of your way in time. You yelled that there were 6 other bikes behind you (as if you were somehow royalty or owned the park). The woman behind you was going almost as fast and I loudly said "Why so damned fast !?!" As the rest of your group (who were going at a decently safe speed passed I told them they needed to talk to you as you were going too fast).

My message : YOU ARE F****** INCONSIDERATE SELFISH ENTITLED JACKASS ! THE REST OF YOUR GROUP ARE F******* A******S FOR NOT YELLING AT YOU TO SLOW DOWN ! The speed limit is 15 mph which you and the second in line were breaking and, regardless, you were going too fast for safety for the conditions in the park (blind corners, lots of families strolling, multiple fitness station stops etc). I complained to the park ranger and I wasn't the only one. Honestly, do you the f****** IQ of a Boston Fern or were you dropped on the head as a kid ?!?

Side note- I would have reacted far more confrontationally had my young kid not been with me. Anyone up on legalities as to what my options were ? I strongly considered physically stopping the guy and doing a citizen's arrest or some such.

I love biking and do it often buts a******s like this that give it a bad name. There are PLENTY of places in the county where you can go like a bat out of hell that don't involve imperiling kids and families.

Sal

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As a member of the Santa Rosa Cycling Club and someone who rides our bike paths a heck of a lot, I can assure you that the unfriendly behavior of the cyclists as described by the original poster is very unusual. Cyclists in general and Club members in particular would be very quite upset if they witnessed cyclists behaving that way. In fifty years of riding bikes, and many thousands of miles in urban and suburban areas, I have never witnessed any thing vaguely resembling the cyclists' behavior as described. ("Bikers," by the way, ride motorcycles. We are talking about cyclists.) I suspect there may be a bit of a Roshomon thing going on here.
In contrast, I cannot count the times that motorists have passed me on a road, typically one with ample room for both of us, and someone in the vehicle chose to scream out the window into my ear his/her displeasure at having to share the road. Now which do we suppose is more of a problem, a rude cyclist or a rude, dangerous motorist? And which is more worthy of our efforts to improve things?
Also in contrast, often when I ride a bike path I encounter people on foot who are completely oblivious to the fact that they are sharing a path with others, and I must slow to a stop or nearly so, ask for some room, and wait until they decide to yield a foot-wide piece of the trail so I might go by. Recently I passed a woman on foot who was so troubled by the fact that I rolled slowly by, putting as much room between us as the trail would allow, which was perhaps 6-8 feet, that she decided to curse me out for not warning her that I was using her (public) trail. Perhaps it's my New York upbringing, but when I'm on foot I make it my business to know the location of nearby vehicles, including bicycles, and stay out of their way, if only for my own well being. Your mileage may vary.

Hey, it's not just here. A friend from Philly just posted this on Facebook, with a gruesome snapshot of her ankle (looks like a rotten cantaloupe.)

"I was just clipped by two bikers while I was out running on the Drive. I twisted my ankle -- the bad one -- and went down. So many people stopped (although not the bikers) with offers of phone calls, help home, etc. I bet if I'd had 5,000 bucks they would even have offed the bikers . . ."

Y'know, folks, I don't think it's really about lack of courtesy or respect. I think it's part of the toxic sea of rage that's been injected into our daily lives. Speculating about offing the bikers is just the shadow side of the nasty act of knocking her off the road, and neither one is productive. If you haven't read the Walter Mosely interview on today's "Democracy Now," it's damn fine, and actually relevant.

He says, "You know, I think that people are addicted to their own oppressor like people are addicted to alcohol or tobacco or opium or whatever. It’s the same kind of thing. And how do you wean yourself off of something that’s so deleterious to your emotional, physical and spiritual health?"

From my own perspective, addiction is blocked energy -- it doesn't go anywhere, it just chases its tail in a tight little circle, and the addict feels helpless, impotent, trapped. Feels awful. Goes and blots it out with more of the same. But any act of direct will, something that doesn't come from that little inner cyclone, makes a difference, even if it seems to be about something totally unrelated. Add enough of 'em up, and it starts to open that blockage and make the trapped energy available again. Sounds simplistic, I know, but think about it.

Elizabeth

Let me agree with a coupe of points below;

1. The vast majority of bikers (keep the semantic corrections to yourself, I have heard the term cyclist and bikers used interchangeably and you know what I am referring to..many sanctioned rides use the term 'bikers' in their advertisements and they are riding 'bikes' so gimme a break) don't usually exhibit the dangerous behavior I observed. Club riders, especially, seem to be very nice caring people. That being said, I will stand by my statement that I have seen common minor versions of the Ragle Biker behavior on every large ride I have been on and almost always on a sunny day when there are lot of bikers around.

2. I agree there is some Roshomon effects happening here. The bikers probably are decent people who didn't perceive how obnxious and unsafe they were being as most bikers who act the same. If you have ridden as much as you say then I think you are exhbiting the Roshomon effect. I wasn't. Had my young son and I been walking 100 feet further along the path then I am pretty confident one of us would have been hit. They were going to fast both legally and for the conditions..thats an objective observation. I don't ride as often as you but I have used a bike several times a week for 40 years. The more extreme dangerous behaviors I rarely see but I do see the following almost every time;
(1) Rude passing (yelling gruffly and not bothering to say thank you as you pass)
(2) Weaving out dangerously and being oblivious to vehicle traffic
(3) Hogging of the roadway/bikeway

3. The consequences of a motorist being unsafe are usually more dire than a biker. That being said, unsafe bikers do kill and hurt as you may have noticed in recent news. Just because there are occasional really bad motorist-cause tragedies doesn't mean that we should not put more effort into changing bike culture. Thats like saying that heart attack causes more death so we should ignore cancer. I still contend that I see more unsafe and careless behavior, per capita, than other modes of behavior (except maybe boaters).

Bikes are more manueverable than almost any other form of transport (except feet).

4. I agree that there are some really clueless and rude pedestrians out there but the overwhelming vast majority of the time, when I am courteous to them they are courteous and accomodating to me with few exceptions. For the rude pedestrians I would argue that many of them have had similar experiences with bikers that I have.

As nice as most bike riders are there is an arrogance in the bike culture that needs to change. Behind the nicety seems to be a cuture that bikers own the roadways and pathways and everyone needs to yield to them. Most don't act on this culture but it happens often enough that it needs to be changed.

Sal

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Posted in reply to the post by RicoBoccia:

As a member of the Santa Rosa Cycling Club and someone who rides our bike paths a heck of a lot, I can assure you that the unfriendly behavior of the cyclists as described by the original poster is very unusual. Cyclists in general and Club members in particular would be very quite upset if they witnessed cyclists behaving that way. In fifty years of riding bikes, and many thousands of miles in urban and suburban areas, I have never witnessed any thing vaguely resembling the cyclists' behavior as described. ("Bikers," by the way, ride motorcycles. We are talking about cyclists.) I suspect there may be a bit of a Roshomon thing going on here.
In contrast, I cannot count the times that motorists have passed me on a road, typically one with ample room for both of us, and someone in the vehicle chose to scream out the window into my ear his/her displeasure at having to share the road. Now which do we suppose is more of a problem, a rude cyclist or a rude, dangerous motorist? And which is more worthy of our efforts to improve things?
Also in contrast, often when I ride a bike path I encounter people on foot who are completely oblivious to the fact that they are sharing a path with others, and I must slow to a stop or nearly so, ask for some room, and wait until they decide to yield a foot-wide piece of the trail so I might go by. Recently I passed a woman on foot who was so troubled by the fact that I rolled slowly by, putting as much room between us as the trail would allow, which was perhaps 6-8 feet, that she decided to curse me out for not warning her that I was using her (public) trail. Perhaps it's my New York upbringing, but when I'm on foot I make it my business to know the location of nearby vehicles, including bicycles, and stay out of their way, if only for my own well being. Your mileage may vary.

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Thank you very much. I am guessing that most of your spin class will respond positively but I am also pretty confident that a few will arrogantly claim that there is no problem and that 'cyclist' are all very polite and courteous 100% of the time and that its really all the motorist and walkers faults.
It would be interesting if you could post what type of response you got.

Thanx,
Sal

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Posted in reply to the post by amalia:

I am a Spin teacher at Coach's Corner and will definitely share these comments with my students.
Many ride on & off road and though I can't imagine that they are part of the Ragle 7, hopefully
they will reflect on these comments and share them with other bikers.
Share the Road (and trails)!
Amy Contardi

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I don't scream or get mad- I not even look at them ignorant speeders- their brains squeezed by spandex, I ignore them.
How that works out? Great so far!

I don't get out of the way! (when I am of course on the correct part of the road, where I am as a pedestrian have the right to be) Same with cars on narrow roads. I can hear their "speed" when coming from the back or the front. At the time when I can hear that they slow down, I move out of the way, most of the time they do not speed up right away after passing me, I assume they realize there a people and animals walking along the road.
Speedy groups of bikers pass me left and right*should there be space*(thats when I stand still- for not to irritate them) or they slow down, then I move to the side. Some try to get mad, but I send them the largest "hollywood-plastic" smile; most of the time they shut up.
What's important, I always make sure ahead a time that I have enough space to move aside when someone should not slow down. Thats important! But I never needed to do that! It is tricky in curves- that's the spot where I make sure I am save at all times no matter what- specially with children and animals! When I hear a car in very thighed curves, I wave a scarf, stick or anything with outstretched arm to make sure I can be seen.*

I drove once for quite some time behind three bikers, next to each other, on a small country road. I hoped they would eventually move into one lane- one behind the other so that I can pass easy, but they did not. Eventually I slowed down a bit then got on my klatch and with the horn on passed them pretty thighed. It was save. They got screaming mad! Perhaps they will get the message eventually. Crossing a double yellow line by doing so, might get you a ticket!*

There should be a speed limit law, or is there- for bikers specially in parks, but without enforcing it- it would not matter much.*Perhaps*"group"*hikers might slow them down? Kind of a occupy the trails... every half a mile or so a group of hikers- leaving them enough space to pass slowly? (not starting a fight- smiling and completely ignoring them, not even a look at them- no eye contact!)

edie













When you have to share a road or trail, each of us have "our part" to walk or drive on. On small country roads the bikes have
the right of way*

I lived in the Point Reyes area for years followed by the past 6 months in Ashland Oregon.
The roads into Point Reyes were just not designed for biking of the pedaling sort. Driving past
bikers displaying the kind of arrogance described here is a daily phenomenon in Pt. Reyes. And, on
weekends locals avoid the bakery in town because it has become the preferred destination for
the spandex-clad, over testosteronized bikers walking awkwardly on spiked heels and ordering
highly sugared treats with coffee.

Driving at 12-15 miles per hour for up to 5 miles behind 50 to 100 arrogant bikers ignoring the '5
car behind' law tends to bring up a bit of my Irish. Hiking on back trails, feeling the zen of nature
and sorting out my thoughts is the biggest pleasure in my life. Having to jump from my reverie to pull
two or three small children off the path to avoid a collision with a biker who silently continues by
at a breakneck speed causes me to wonder if there isn't a better idea.

Ashland, on the other hand, has put a tremendous amount of planning and effort into creating a
hospitable solution. The city has generously wide (10 feet) bike paths and I walk on them with these same
small children and find I can share my love for the zen of walking with them. The hiking trails outside
Ashland, are marked with signs for hikers only or for multi-use. The multi-use trails are wide enough
(old logging trails) to accommodate all of us. I am still amazed as I drive along the main road at night
10, 11, 12 pm that there are many people walking from here to there and there to here with calm relaxed gaits and, simultaneously, scores of persons riding bikes on painted bikelanes.

The road I live and walk on is very similar to the ones surrounding Pt. Reyes (though steeper) and
the bikes, joggers, skateboarders, dog-walkers and hikers seem to be able to negotiate around
each other (cars are admittedly more sparse here) and even exchange happy greetings and encouragement
to each other.

I would encourage planners to come to Ashland and use is as a model.

Peggy

I think it is a complete lack of respect and a sense of selfish entitlement that seems to be growing in the bike culture (this coming from someone who is somewhat part of the bike culture). I appreciate your efforts to make this a general issue relating to spirituality or some such but the fact remains that biking, which is supposed to be peaceful and healthy (emotionally, spiritually, physically) has spawned so much bad behavior that rants like mine are fully justified (and the accompanying stories from others attest to).

We all know that there are rude motorists (especially in CA..it becomes really striking compared to other states), but, per capita, there is no excuse for the amount of bad behavior..its sort of like yoga practitioners becoming carelessly violent or rude..its just doesn't belong.

BTW- don't get me started on the mountain bikers at Analy. I don't feel comfortable walking there on a nice weekend, especially with my kid.

I think the real solution is not sharing but making seperate pathways which is impractical.
Sal

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Posted in reply to the post by theindependenteye:

Hey, it's not just here. A friend from Philly just posted this on Facebook, with a gruesome snapshot of her ankle (looks like a rotten cantaloupe.)

"I was just clipped by two bikers while I was out running on the Drive. I twisted my ankle -- the bad one -- and went down. So many people stopped (although not the bikers) with offers of phone calls, help home, etc. I bet if I'd had 5,000 bucks they would even have offed the bikers . . ."

Y'know, folks, I don't think it's really about lack of courtesy or respect. I think it's part of the toxic sea of rage that's been injected into our daily lives. Speculating about offing the bikers is just the shadow side of the nasty act of knocking her off the road, and neither one is productive. If you haven't read the Walter Mosely interview on today's "Democracy Now," it's damn fine, and actually relevant.

He says, "You know, I think that people are addicted to their own oppressor like people are addicted to alcohol or tobacco or opium or whatever. It’s the same kind of thing. And how do you wean yourself off of something that’s so deleterious to your emotional, physical and spiritual health?"

From my own perspective, addiction is blocked energy -- it doesn't go anywhere, it just chases its tail in a tight little circle, and the addict feels helpless, impotent, trapped. Feels awful. Goes and blots it out with more of the same. But any act of direct will, something that doesn't come from that little inner cyclone, makes a difference, even if it seems to be about something totally unrelated. Add enough of 'em up, and it starts to open that blockage and make the trapped energy available again. Sounds simplistic, I know, but think about it.

Elizabeth

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Posted in reply to the post by taishon:

... Bikers are supposed to be better than the average motorist with anger control issues..not some entitled selfish a-holes.

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uh, why would you think that? some bikers may be doing it because they're enlightened and conscious; others are thrill-seeking athletes. I leave it to you to decide which group has more "entitled selfish a-holes".

It's another sign that cities don't treat bikes with respect. There's a reason cars and people were separated, as were cars & horse-powered transport from pedestrians in their day. Bikes and pedestrians aren't a good mix, really, any more than bikes and cars are. The big mistake last go-round was to prefer cars over everything. This time let's get infrastructure right. Separate slow traffic, fast green traffic (bikes & other small wheeled vehicles) and trucking into three parallel routes. Rail could be a fourth route. Resource-hogging personal vehicles (cars & SUVs) can just suck it up and share with the trucking.

politically we're not there yet, and without $10/gallon gas (along with an economy that again supports public works) I don't think it'll happen. But it's the right thing to do.

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Posted in reply to the post by "Mad" Miles:

... I've always wanted to try my hand at throwing a Bola. There aren't a lot of Rheas or Agoutis running along the Rodota Trail, so smug, aggressive, self-aggrandized bicyclists immersed in solopsistic entitlement who consider terrorism a means to securing their right of way, could present a good opportunity to try my hand!

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cool idea; I agree that the idea of throwing a bola is inherently attractive, and could make a pedestrian (in both senses of the word) stroll down a bike path more entertaining.

For anyone considering throwing a Bola, I feel it imperative to mention that they can, "crush bones", so bear that in mind. Of course, so can bikes and cars. I'm just considering options for evening the playing field for pedestrians!! And it's my understanding that Gauchos generally threw/throw bolas while galloping on horseback. The Indians they adapted it from, threw them while standing or running. Progress?

I mostly drive a car. Haven't biked in decades and never on rural roads. When I pass bikers/cyclists, I give them a wide birth, crossing yellow and solid white lines to give them at least half, preferably a whole road lane as I pass. Generally that works.

About four or five years ago, I was headed east on River Road, and at the curve just past Burke's Canoes, before Mirabel Campground, a Spandexi was chugging along quite fast going into the right hand curve. Still far under the 45 mph limit. One cannot see oncoming traffic there. I held back. Once I could see ahead I sped up to pass (crossing into the oncoming lane) and as I approached I gave a quick beep of my horn, just to let him know I was coming.

A courtesy and safety gesture. I didn't lean on the horn, I didn't do it when I was right behind him. I did it twenty, thirty feet from behind just to say, "Hey, I'm here and I'm now going to pass you." My attempt to duplicate the Tling Tling of a bicycle bell.

I was partly motivated because he seemed immersed in his sprinting effort and was swerving back and forth in a pattern that took up three to five feet of lateral space. I didn't want him to be surprised as I passed him.

For my effort I was greeted with the middle finger salute and shouted cursing. Suffice it to say, my sympathy for the two wheeled weekend warriors of pedal power was diminished. And my adrenaline output shot up. I almost pulled over to discuss it with him. But based on his response, and previous experience, I didn't see a percentage in it, and the potential for escalation was all too evident.

Guess which encounter with a Weekend Road Warrior I remember the most vividly? All the uneventful ones? Or that reactive A-hole?

We've seen numerous examples of people asserting their right of way while walking or pedaling, in recent years. Particularly in Santa Rosa, but all over. That assertion of rights never seems to go well for those who make up far smaller mass than those to whom they are demonstrating their legal and personal privileges. Often tragically.

But in a few cases, it seems Darwin's Law is in full enforcement.

It only takes one idiot to ruin it for the rest of a group. Bear that in mind while asserting that the bullies are only an anomaly (or don't exist at all, it's just "perception") and not the rule. Your protestations of innocence will be more convincing if you acknowledge that a problem might exist. Denying it loses you rhetorical and moral brownie points in the court of public opinion.

I like Day Nurse's description of how municipal and county design can alleviate the territorial competition among various modes of transport. But in an anti-government, anti "policing", Conservative Libertarian political environment* good luck finding the collective will and the money to make that happen. That's not the prevailing trend.

*John Stossel? Really?!! I'm an anti-authoritarian since forever, but I acknowledge that sometimes people need incentives to do the right thing. They even have Peace Cops at Burning Man, ya know?

You know where I first heard about using an airhorn as a soft way to deter aggressors, without resorting to threats, let alone causing direct physical harm? At a meeting of 121 Bookshop in Brixton in late May of 1981, in a discussion of how to respond to threats from the "Rasta Mafia" who had claimed dibs on the building that the Anarchist squatters had occupied.

They also discussed installing a metal box behind the mail slot in the door. So that if someone poured petrol through it and lit it, it wouldn't spread to the floor and the rest of the shop. They also pointed out the cricket bat behind the desk in the corner, just in case the airhorn didn't summon help in time and deter any aggressors, and one wasn't fighting an arson fire...

It made for a very interesting introduction to South London anti-authoritarian and Leftist Libertarian culture. Not the kind of thing I was used to dealing with in Southern California, or at various Non-Violent Direct Action Anti-Nuclear mobilizations.

Attic, I think you'll find that if you don't want to involve the police, there are times one is required to self-police. Hence this discussion. Even Libertarians have values they enforce, right?

Podfish, I don't get where you get that they used to separate pedestrians from horse and wagon traffic. Have you not seen this?

Police talk about rules for cyclist.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...&v=bFZOOM0rnY8
billy crashes his road bike
https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...&v=hIKXSnKmYK0

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Posted in reply to the post by RicoBoccia:

As a member of the Santa Rosa Cycling Club and someone who rides our bike paths a heck of a lot, I can assure you that the unfriendly behavior of the cyclists as described by the original poster is very unusual. Cyclists in general and Club members in particular would be very quite upset if they witnessed cyclists behaving that way. In fifty years of riding bikes, and many thousands of miles in urban and suburban areas, I have never witnessed any thing vaguely resembling the cyclists' behavior as described. ("Bikers," by the way, ride motorcycles. We are talking about cyclists.) I suspect there may be a bit of a Roshomon thing going on here.
In contrast, I cannot count the times that motorists have passed me on a road, typically one with ample room for both of us, and someone in the vehicle chose to scream out the window into my ear his/her displeasure at having to share the road. Now which do we suppose is more of a problem, a rude cyclist or a rude, dangerous motorist? And which is more worthy of our efforts to improve things?
Also in contrast, often when I ride a bike path I encounter people on foot who are completely oblivious to the fact that they are sharing a path with others, and I must slow to a stop or nearly so, ask for some room, and wait until they decide to yield a foot-wide piece of the trail so I might go by. Recently I passed a woman on foot who was so troubled by the fact that I rolled slowly by, putting as much room between us as the trail would allow, which was perhaps 6-8 feet, that she decided to curse me out for not warning her that I was using her (public) trail. Perhaps it's my New York upbringing, but when I'm on foot I make it my business to know the location of nearby vehicles, including bicycles, and stay out of their way, if only for my own well being. Your mileage may vary.

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Rio,
I am glad you are one of the considerate ones. I am a lifelong cyclist as well and ride daily in Santa Rosa on the streets and bike trail. I have seen much hateful behavior frequently among cyclists and auto drivers. Also a lot of pedestrians are unaware of their surroundings, step out to jaywalk without looking etc.
I agree with you the best way is to stay out of the way and/or let them go by.

I like your attitude, Miles. I might just add that beeping at a cyclist is usually perceived as a hostile act. Why? Because it so often is. Unless there is something unusual in the situation, e.g. a high wind that makes the sound of an approaching car difficult to hear, by the time you are within 20-30 feet of a cyclist, he/she is well aware of your presence, and blowing the horn is not only not going to help, it's going to make the cyclist think you are either yet one more hostile motorist or at least overly frightened about what might happen next (as many drivers seem to be). What seems from inside your car like a "quick beep" that is an attempt to duplicate the sound of a bicycle bell sounds very different to someone not encased in the safety and sound-deafening of 1-2 tons of glass and steel. At 150-200 feet, you might be far enough back that the cyclist has not yet heard your car and might benefit from a friendly beep, but as I say, he/she is almost always going to hear the sound of your car well before it's time to move all the way to the right. Hope this helps.

Ok..but if the biker almost always hears the car then why aren't they moving out of the way instead of forcing the car to move outside the lines ?!? I have a truck, there are many times when I have been right behind a biker and they act completly oblivious which is crappy on their part. The quick is a gentle reminder that they are being stupid and inconsiderate and need to move over and pay attention more..if they want to perceive it as hostile, I don't care..as long as they move the hell out of the way and use more consciousness next time. If they are being stupid and unsafe, they need an assertive reminder. We are not going to install little bike bells on all our cars. Woudl you prefer yelling out the window ?!? How else do I get an inconsiderate biker to move over ? Closely follow them for miles ?
Sal

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Posted in reply to the post by RicoBoccia:

I like your attitude, Miles. I might just add that beeping at a cyclist is usually perceived as a hostile act. Why? Because it so often is. Unless there is something unusual in the situation, e.g. a high wind that makes the sound of an approaching car difficult to hear, by the time you are within 20-30 feet of a cyclist, he/she is well aware of your presence, and blowing the horn is not only not going to help, it's going to make the cyclist think you are either yet one more hostile motorist or at least overly frightened about what might happen next (as many drivers seem to be). What seems from inside your car like a "quick beep" that is an attempt to duplicate the sound of a bicycle bell sounds very different to someone not encased in the safety and sound-deafening of 1-2 tons of glass and steel. At 150-200 feet, you might be far enough back that the cyclist has not yet heard your car and might benefit from a friendly beep, but as I say, he/she is almost always going to hear the sound of your car well before it's time to move all the way to the right. Hope this helps.

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This makes sense, but how many people (who don't ride) are aware that the rider can hear the cars so well, or are aware that the beep will be perceived as "hostile"?

I know that when I was behind a rider on Fort Ross Road a few years ago, I beeped the horn to alert him, and got a tirade of anger (it was Tom Ritchey, who owns a place there). And that's one of quite a few times that my attempts to not hit a biker have been met with curses.

Quote:

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Posted in reply to the post by RicoBoccia:

I like your attitude, Miles. I might just add that beeping at a cyclist is usually perceived as a hostile act. Why? Because it so often is. Unless there is something unusual in the situation, e.g. a high wind that makes the sound of an approaching car difficult to hear, by the time you are within 20-30 feet of a cyclist, he/she is well aware of your presence, and blowing the horn is not only not going to help, it's going to make the cyclist think you are either yet one more hostile motorist or at least overly frightened about what might happen next (as many drivers seem to be). What seems from inside your car like a "quick beep" that is an attempt to duplicate the sound of a bicycle bell sounds very different to someone not encased in the safety and sound-deafening of 1-2 tons of glass and steel. At 150-200 feet, you might be far enough back that the cyclist has not yet heard your car and might benefit from a friendly beep, but as I say, he/she is almost always going to hear the sound of your car well before it's time to move all the way to the right. Hope this helps.

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I greatly appreciate those willing to discuss this like adults, rather than threaten violence (which, even if meant in humor, is not the least bit funny). We have learned here that the participants in a bike-pedestrian or bike-auto encounter can have dramatically different views of the situation. Like mediators always say, the best way to solve a conflict is to first try to see things from the other person's point of view, so we've already made good progress in that regard.

How would a non-cyclist know that cyclists can hear cars without the use of a car horn? Well, I just told you (and Mr. Ritchey's behavior implied as much, too; he just didn't have the venue to explain it clearly). So if you tell a few people and they each tell a few people and so on, the world is soon a safer, happier place, however incrementally. I think this is how it works with most positive change in this jagged world.

And yes, there will always be people who don't play nice, like the cyclist who doesn't move over. Even though I cycle a lot, I, too, encounter such people when I am in my car. At those times I get just as unhappy as anyone, but I try to remember to take a breath and realize that waiting until there is room to pass safely, even if such is my right and even if I have to drive serveral extra seconds until it appears, is a level of inconvenience that is utterly trivial compared to the unhappiness that would come into *my* life (forget the cyclist's) if I refused to wait those seconds, tried to wedge my car through a space too small, and something bad happened. I find my righteous indignation, while satisfying, I admit, just isn't worth it. Another's mileage may, of course, vary.

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Posted in reply to the post by Sara S:

... And that's one of quite a few times that my attempts to not hit a biker have been met with curses.

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it always amazes me that people are so trusting.
I wouldn't walk around in a public place with earbuds - I don't particularly like them in private, for that matter. But being willing to challenge someone who's wrapped in a steel box weighing a couple of tons while you're out there essentially naked - that's a sense of security I can't imagine. To me it shows a hugely unwarranted trust in human nature.

I think most of my unpleasant encounters like that just show that a common reaction to sudden fear is instant anger; of course, you could say that just being out there on a bike shows trust of a sort.

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Posted in reply to the post by podfish:

it always amazes me that people are so trusting.
I wouldn't walk around in a public place with earbuds - I don't particularly like them in private, for that matter. But being willing to challenge someone who's wrapped in a steel box weighing a couple of tons while you're out there essentially naked - that's a sense of security I can't imagine. To me it shows a hugely unwarranted trust in human nature.

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I keep seeing the need to generalize and support 'both sides' in arguments like these and sort of make overall statements about spirituality or humanity. There may be two different perceptions (one of which is just plain wrong) to some of these incidents but there really is only one valid rational one to most of the incidents described. There were two parties involved and one party was acting stupidly, carelessly, and dangerously. You can light all the zen candles and do all the meditation you want, the 'wrong party' may be a wonderful person who, temporarily, acted carelessly, but all that will matter not one bit if someone's kid or loved one gets seriously injured or killed by careless behavior. I shouldn't be the only bike rider talking about stuff like this. There weren't two valid, correct perceptions to the incident I witnessed much as there wouldn't have been two valid correct perceptions to me driving my truck 50 mph down a crowded residential street full of families. Its wrong, its stupid, its arrogant, its careless, its selfish.

As far as the violence issue goes (and I do find the 'bola comments' amusing and tempting :0) sometimes people just need to be decked for being so damned thoughtless. In the incident I mentioned one of the reasons I wasn't even more assertive was that, if I got a caustic response I would have seriously been tempted to use violence and been a bad example to my son. If that makes you feel more enlightened and 'better' than me..then enjoy. Even more fun for me, in the long term, would be some kind of effective legal action but that is damned tough to carry off. I would rather be justifiably aggressive then ineffectually and arrogantly passive-aggressive. Had I been more aggressive maybe they would think twice before endangering someone else. Had I passively moved off the pathway there is no coercion or incentives for them to act differently next time. I have never seen a bully situation where acting like a passive victim made bullies less bullying (except maybe in nature when we are talking about wolves or some such). To take the analogy even more extreme, plenty of studies have shown that fighting off a rapist, rather than being submissive, has a much much higher chance of success. No, the crappy bikers mentioned often in this thread weren't even close to being evil rapists but they did exemplify a much much milder version of the same type of mentality- ie the belief you can act in a way you should know better because you think there are no consequences or you don't care about the consequences because you believe them to be mild.

We can 'Ghandi' this all we want but 'Ghandi' was only successful after a hell of a lot of hurt and killed innocents (and I doubt he would have been effective, at all, against Hitler or the Khmer Rouge..but I digress).

As many seasoned warriors and victims of bullying will attest, sometimes Bullys just need to be beat down by someone tougher and more assertive. Watch episodes of 'Bully Beatdown' and you will see how effective beating down a Bully is (they tend to change and realize that its not that much fun when yer a victim). Obnoxious riders are a form of bully. I never encounter bikers who cuss me out because I am going too slow because I am 6' 220 lbs..not because its all that rare as others can/have attested here. If I was an 80 year old lady who just wanted to enjoy a leisurely afternoon stroll on occasion, I guarantee that I would have more bad encounters from these bullies.


Ok..now I went off on a ridiculous philisophical tangent :0)

Admire your belief in being peaceful and open-minded..believe there are situations where that is ineffective and ultimately bad.

Sal

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Posted in reply to the post by RicoBoccia:

I greatly appreciate those willing to discuss this like adults, rather than threaten violence (which, even if meant in humor, is not the least bit funny). We have learned here that the participants in a bike-pedestrian or bike-auto encounter can have dramatically different views of the situation. Like mediators always say, the best way to solve a conflict is to first try to see things from the other person's point of view, so we've already made good progress in that regard.

How would a non-cyclist know that cyclists can hear cars without the use of a car horn? Well, I just told you (and Mr. Ritchey's behavior implied as much, too; he just didn't have the venue to explain it clearly). So if you tell a few people and they each tell a few people and so on, the world is soon a safer, happier place, however incrementally. I think this is how it works with most positive change in this jagged world.

And yes, there will always be people who don't play nice, like the cyclist who doesn't move over. Even though I cycle a lot, I, too, encounter such people when I am in my car. At those times I get just as unhappy as anyone, but I try to remember to take a breath and realize that waiting until there is room to pass safely, even if such is my right and even if I have to drive serveral extra seconds until it appears, is a level of inconvenience that is utterly trivial compared to the unhappiness that would come into *my* life (forget the cyclist's) if I refused to wait those seconds, tried to wedge my car through a space too small, and something bad happened. I find my righteous indignation, while satisfying, I admit, just isn't worth it. Another's mileage may, of course, vary.

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"I greatly appreciate those willing to discuss this like adults, rather than threaten violence (which, even if meant in humor, is not the least bit funny). We have learned here that the participants in a bike-pedestrian or bike-auto encounter can have dramatically different views of the situation. Like mediators always say, the best way to solve a conflict is to first try to see things from the other person's point of view, so we've already made good progress in that regard."

Rico,

Flying closely by someone in a park or on a pedestrian/bicycle/equestrian trail anywhere, while shouting aggressively for the right of way, is violent. Both as actual emotional violence, and the greater speed and mass of the rider and their bicycle is a palpable threat of physical violence.

Bicycles won't beat cars or trucks, obviously, but they're made of metal and hard plastic, when you add velocity and the weight of a human body, they are a clear and present danger to pedestrians, especially small ones, and animals, usually of the canine variety in this matter.

One respondent below mentioned actual physical harm done to a friend by violent "accidental" contact with a cyclist. Those of us who read the news know that in the tally of who did what to who, car and truck drivers are far ahead in the damage to cyclists as opposed to the other way around. But a cyclist killed a pedestrian in San Francisco last November.

Granted that's exceptional, rare, but without some comprehensive study (that I'm sure Attic would oppose as overzealous policing! ;-P ) all we have is anecdotal evidence. There seems sufficient hearsay to acknowledge that some cyclists are riding too aggressively and too fast, on shared trails and paths.

This discussion isn't just about right of way, or etiquette, it's about who is threatening whom and why. And why it should not be countenanced.

All of the tongue in cheek references to defensive "violence" need to be understood in that light.

And I will repeat cause it's damned important, when you as a cyclist respond to complaints about obnoxious and threatening cyclists by saying, "...participants in a bike-pedestrian or bike-auto encounter can have dramatically different views of the situation. Like mediators always say, the best way to solve a conflict is to first try to see things from the other person's point of view...", surely you understand that comes off as denial and deflection.

When people are angry for good reason, denial and deflection from those they are angry at, or those claiming to represent those they are angry at, generally exacerbate the conflict, they do not alleviate it.

You know what might ameliorate the conflict?

A clear and visible effort from the recreational biking community to police its own. And for self-appointed representatives to acknowledge the problem without trying to deflect it back to those unhappy for being treated with disrespect and who have been verbally and physically threatened while doing absolutely nothing wrong.

That might be a start. I've seen some acknowledgment here from cyclists that not all "bikers" are angels. But I've also seen those representing them dissembling as much as addressing the problem. Those evasions do nothing but confirm your community's reputation for arrogance, self-entitlement and denial. As I wrote in my previous, it only takes one jerk to ruin it for everybody else.

By the way, tearing up trails on public property that leads to erosion and habitat depletion? Also not helping. Not helping your community's reputation with others, specifically.

I won't belabor the, "not paying for parking" issue, in regional parks, by pedestrians, cyclists, whoever. The PD has been all over that tip.

When this stuff comes up, I think about the lab rat population studies from back in the eighties. How anti-social behavior increases greatly when crowding and resource reductions (food, water) are introduced.

I've always resisted biological determinist explanations for social (and anti-social) behavior. I hated, The Naked Ape, when I read it in the mid-seventies. But sometimes such explanations are hard to resist. The thin veneer of civilization, and all that...

@RicoBocciahttps://www.waccobb.net/forums/image...ward_arrow.png Well after reading how the bikers on this thread want to sing kumbaya, light candles, and reincarnate gandhi it makes me think that this is all just excuses for bad biker behavior. It seems that one cyclist on this thread is trying to down play the bad biker behavior by dwelling on the joking comments about a tazer. I may in joke say tazer a cyclist but I'm not the guy endangering other people and being a danger on our roads and trails. The fact of the matter is that when you a biker are making excuses for other bikers bad behavior it makes my tazer comment seem more worthy of actual contemplation. Bikers being dangerous is the cause of this thread but no you cant take a joke about a tazer. So now I have changed my mind as this lack of you being able to even take a joke shows me that you have a sense of entitlement and that no one should put down your biker kin. I would now like to have the police involved. We should give cyclist tickets for speeding not moving to the side of the road as is the law and for their ridiculous bad spandex clad attitudes. Those of you that said take video, I now agree, lets shame the bikers that obviously think this behavior is ok. I will honk or air-horn at every biker that is not obeying the law from now on. Hold hands and sing kumbaya to that.

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Posted in reply to the post by "Mad" Miles:

You know what might ameliorate the conflict?

A clear and visible effort from the recreational biking community to police its own.

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that might be nice, but that implies more of a community than I think exists. I doubt there's anywhere near enough feeling of interconnection and mutual responsibility for riders to be a real community, any more than blondes make up a community.
Unless you mean the subset who do self-identify as the riding community; there certainly is a subset of riders who feel that way. But as was pointed out, it only takes a few bad actors (I don't recall the exact term used earlier in this thread) to tarnish the group. It's unlikely there's full overlap between those and the "riding community".

Totally different issue: tearing up trails. Sometimes the definition of "tearing up" is in the eye of the beholder, with more justfication than the claim of there being two sides to ped vs. rider interactions. For someone who hates the damn things anyway, even more if they're motorized, any trace left behind by a cycle is too much. Equestrians and wheeled-offroaders are going to leave traces. As are hikers, as are hoofed wildlife. That problem is more qualitative and subject to negotiation, except to the purist tree-hugger or land-rapers. Let's keep the two conflicts of interest separate.

I think there is a very strong biker community here in this county. Unfortunately, I am coming to believe its of the evangelical myopic variety that doesn't exist in any other many hobbies or passions I am part of. Just as in fundamental religions there seems to be a steadfast belief that their 'religion' is not subject to doubt or questioning or criticism and is fundamentally better than other religions (walkers and motorists). I have posted in 3 very public locations and NOT A SINGLE BIKER HAS COME FORWARD IN ANY KIND OF SYMPATHY OR AGREEMENT OR CONCERN OR OUTRAGE with me !!
Thats highly unusual and really does imitate a fundamentalists religious order. The more I delve into this the more I realize that this is much bigger and more pervasive then the single incident I started this thread with. I am a 'biker'..I am criticizing the biker community. The only replies I have gotten from other bikers are (1) denial of the issue and (2) criticism of the use of the word 'stupid' in my post :0) !

I have held several different careers, participated in at least 8 different passionate hobbies in my lifetime and, in all of them, had I posted similar criticisms I would have gotten many sympathetic responses from within the community.

Hell (pun intended) when I did the fundamental religious think and questioned aspects of the culture I got more sympathetic responses from inside the criticized community !

Sal

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Posted in reply to the post by podfish:

that might be nice, but that implies more of a community than I think exists. I doubt there's anywhere near enough feeling of interconnection and mutual responsibility for riders to be a real community, any more than blondes make up a community.
Unless you mean the subset who do self-identify as the riding community; there certainly is a subset of riders who feel that way. But as was pointed out, it only takes a few bad actors (I don't recall the exact term used earlier in this thread) to tarnish the group. It's unlikely there's full overlap between those and the "riding community".

Totally different issue: tearing up trails. Sometimes the definition of "tearing up" is in the eye of the beholder, with more justfication than the claim of there being two sides to ped vs. rider interactions. For someone who hates the damn things anyway, even more if they're motorized, any trace left behind by a cycle is too much. Equestrians and wheeled-offroaders are going to leave traces. As are hikers, as are hoofed wildlife. That problem is more qualitative and subject to negotiation, except to the purist tree-hugger or land-rapers. Let's keep the two conflicts of interest separate.

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Warning: This is slightly tangential, but it does follow from some of what's been said on this thread:

Motorists, bicyclists and pedestrians as groups of humans all show both good and bad behaviors. I want to gripe about the behavior of many, many pedestrians--behavior that's very similar to some that's been mentioned about bicyclists. How many of you, when walking side-by-side with a friend down a sidewalk or walking path, switch to single file when someone is coming the other way, so they don't have to scrunch up or, worse, get off the sidewalk/path entirely to make it by you?

In my experience, many pedestrians are inconsiderate in this way. It's not about much danger of injury; it's about showing basic respect for those around us instead of making the world a little uglier by being a self-centered jerk. Just 2 days ago on the SSU campus, I was walking on a paved footpath, way over to the right side to leave plenty of room for others, when a girl (I won't call her a woman because she didn't conduct herself as an adult) came the other direction waaaay over on my side, even though it was a wide path and she had plenty of room to avoid me. I held my ground rather than get off the path, which would have been necessary to avoid her, and our shoulders hit fairly hard as we passed each other. I have no idea what was going through her little pea-brain, but whatever it was, it had nothing to do with basic consideration or respect for others. :cussing:

Dig this, inconsiderate pedestrians (and I know some of you are reading this because there are so many of you out there): You have no right whatsoever to any more than half the width of the sidewalk or path when someone is trying to pass you (whether they're going the same direction or the opposite one). They should not have to scrunch up their shoulder and balance along the far edge of the walkway, or worse yet, get off it entirely, to avoid you. There is no god-given right to walk side-by-side with your friends, taking up more than half of the walkway. If you're not in the habit of going single file when others need to pass, you're simply thoughtless and inconsiderate. Please take this opportunity to examine your behavior, and the thoughtless attitude that underlies it and probably manifests in other obnoxious behaviors, and change. :beg:

Dixon, She was literally hitting on you! Didn't you get the message? As for the rest of your always rational comments. See my reference to rat studies.

Taishon, It's the endorphins. They justify everything.

I think we can all agree that there will always be a small percentage of habitual knuckleheads and unrepentant quarterwits in any group you want to talk about, be it cyclists, car drivers, dog owners, vegans, pseudo intellectuals, conspiracy theorists, or waccoons. I just try to smile, wave, and get on with my day and my life...

As I shared at the beginning of this thread my concern is the safety of park and trail users, this is paramount. Rudeness, verbal attacks are horrible (as I experienced) but if one of these speeding cyclists is unable to avoid a child or dog or person the consequences could be tragic. The reason for 15 mph is it's a safe speed to change direction/slow down/stop. (Yes - you just might have to stop your bike on the trail:wink:)

I called the County Parks Division and spoke with Scott Bolin who is the person in charge of the West County Trail to see what can be done about these folks. He said he will review the signage and talk to other staff members. He was quite aware of the problem. Hopefully they will start to warn/ticket speeding cyclists.

Please bicyclists ~ slow down ~ we all share the trails. If you want to go fast stay on the roads. And thank you to the ones who ring their bells to alert walkers to their presence.

Sharing is good.

Wow ! I just wanted to express my gratitude for al the proactive responses to my original post ! I really appreciate it. If the bikers, in question, are up on the boards then I think they got the message..if not, at least there is the possibility of action that will help alleviate the issue.
Thanx !
Sal

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Posted in reply to the post by wildarabella:

As I shared at the beginning of this thread my concern is the safety of park and trail users, this is paramount. Rudeness, verbal attacks are horrible (as I experienced) but if one of these speeding cyclists is unable to avoid a child or dog or person the consequences could be tragic. The reason for 15 mph is it's a safe speed to change direction/slow down/stop. (Yes - you just might have to stop your bike on the trail:wink:)

I called the County Parks Division and spoke with Scott Bolin who is the person in charge of the West County Trail to see what can be done about these folks. He said he will review the signage and talk to other staff members. He was quite aware of the problem. Hopefully they will start to warn/ticket speeding cyclists.

Please bicyclists ~ slow down ~ we all share the trails. If you want to go fast stay on the roads. And thank you to the ones who ring their bells to alert walkers to their presence.

Sharing is good.

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Hi Everyone,

I have not posted to this thread yet because there is so much here that I could comment on, but life is incredibly busy and I don't have time to write all that I might wish to. I am sorry to hear of Sal's nasty experience at Ragle the other day. Yuck, I hate it when my momma-bear self has to rise up and then the provoker doesn't get to hear my roar. It seems that rudeness has become an acceptable way of interacting with fellow human beings these days. At least here in Northern California where we live. It was not always so, and rudeness is not as accepted in other areas of our country and world. This is something I often contemplate and it would be nice to start addressing this as a community.

I could say I'm a cyclist, as I use a bicycle to transport my children and myself to all the places we go, Monday through Friday. I'm not into mountain biking or road racing, so for some reason I don't identify myself as a "biker". I just use my bike to get to almost every place I go. In my interactions on the road I notice a differences in behavior between commuter cyclists, tourers, racers, recreational cyclists, homeless folks, and children. It is a varied bunch, each individual also has their own way, but there is one thing that I see often and is a behavior common to all the different groups: cyclists often do not come to a full stop at stop signs or stop lights. A few barely even slow down. While most of these instances that I witness do not put anyone in harm's way (empty intersections), some do create unsafe situations. More importantly, this disregard of the law gives a bad impression to our fellow community members.

If all of us on peddled contraptions could do only one thing to make a better impression, I would choose stopping wherever we are required to stop as operators of vehicles. I know it can be annoying and a lot more work to stop at a stop sign when no other vehicles are there, but I can say from experience that people are watching and people appreciate the simple gesture of following this simple rule. I do this with a 60 lb bicycle, loaded with an average of 20lbs of cargo, plus myself and often my 7 year old. When I come to a stop while peddling uphill, admittedly I do not put my foot down, but my wheels do stop for a few seconds while I balance and then continue on my way (as long as it is my turn to go).

I have found that simply stopping at stop signs has rubbed off on other cyclists. Maybe it's a coincidence, but maybe seeing a petite female with a noticeably heavy bike stopping has reminded those with lighter bikes and no loads that we do have to follow the rules of the road. I know of 3 other cyclists that I see frequently who now pause at intersections when they didn't before. Who knows who they have influenced?

-L

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Posted in reply to the post by jbox:

I think we can all agree that there will always be a small percentage of habitual knuckleheads and unrepentant quarterwits in any group you want to talk about, be it cyclists, car drivers, dog owners, vegans, pseudo intellectuals, conspiracy theorists, or waccoons.

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Agreed, jbox--though I'm not sure I'd say it's a small percentage.

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I just try to smile, wave, and get on with my day and my life...

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But I assume (overly optimistically?) that some percentage of these people may actually improve their behavior if they get enough disapproving feedback from those around them. Sometimes they're just so unconscious that they didn't even realize they were stepping on others' toes--most of us have done that at one time or another--so a bit of a "don't tread on me" snarl may help them be more aware. Even if someone's so sociopathic that their (nonexistent) concern for the rights of others cannot be appealed to, it's possible to give them such unpleasant social consequences that they'll think twice before treating others so obnoxiously next time. So I feel not just a right, but in some ways a social responsibility, to stand up for myself and convey strong disapproval when people behave as assholes.

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Posted in reply to the post by Dixon:

Agreed, jbox--though I'm not sure I'd say it's a small percentage.


But I assume (overly optimistically?) that some percentage of these people may actually improve their behavior if they get enough disapproving feedback from those around them. Sometimes they're just so unconscious that they didn't even realize they were stepping on others' toes--most of us have done that at one time or another--so a bit of a "don't tread on me" snarl may help them be more aware. Even if someone's so sociopathic that their (nonexistent) concern for the rights of others cannot be appealed to, it's possible to give them such unpleasant social consequences that they'll think twice before treating others so obnoxiously next time. So I feel not just a right, but in some ways a social responsibility, to stand up for myself and convey strong disapproval when people behave as assholes.

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Yes, Dixon, of course you're right as usual. Believe me, I've stepped on a few toes in my time as my extended family will attest and do feel a moral or civic duty to point out bad or dumb behavior. I once saw a guy litter the sidewalk and I picked up the trash and walked over to him and handed it to him and said "Oh, you dropped this." I'm just saying sometimes you can't sweat the small stuff and it's better to just slide on by. Besides, you never know when a quarterwit may want to have a fistfight or worse.

One of the most important things cyclists could do to make themselves safe on the roads would be to follow the laws themselves. I say this as a cyclist and as a car driver who is tired of idiots with out helmets coming towards me on the wrong side of the road as I drive my car. We are learning how to do bikes as transportation, not just as toys, and it is taking a while to figure it all out. Pedestrians on paved paths in parks could be more considerate and not take up both sides of the path, especially on paths like the Joe Rodota Trail and the Santa Rosa Creek Trail. Also, dog walkers need to learn how to fit in also. Most are really good, a few don't seem to get the concept of sharing the path. Barrie

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Posted in reply to the post by taishon:

About 20 minutes ago I was walking with my young kid on the paved path around Ragle park. A biker came screaming towards us on the hill that occurs after a partly blind turn past the tennis courts. You didn't slow down even though I was glaring at you and getting ready to jump in your way in case my kid didn't get out of your way in time. You yelled that there were 6 other bikes behind you (as if you were somehow royalty or owned the park). The woman behind you was going almost as fast and I loudly said "Why so damned fast !?!" As the rest of your group (who were going at a decently safe speed passed I told them they needed to talk to you as you were going too fast).

My message : YOU ARE F****** INCONSIDERATE SELFISH ENTITLED JACKASS ! THE REST OF YOUR GROUP ARE F******* A******S FOR NOT YELLING AT YOU TO SLOW DOWN ! The speed limit is 15 mph which you and the second in line were breaking and, regardless, you were going too fast for safety for the conditions in the park (blind corners, lots of families strolling, multiple fitness station stops etc). I complained to the park ranger and I wasn't the only one. Honestly, do you the f****** IQ of a Boston Fern or were you dropped on the head as a kid ?!?

Side note- I would have reacted far more confrontationally had my young kid not been with me. Anyone up on legalities as to what my options were ? I strongly considered physically stopping the guy and doing a citizen's arrest or some such.

I love biking and do it often buts a******s like this that give it a bad name. There are PLENTY of places in the county where you can go like a bat out of hell that don't involve imperiling kids and families.

Sal

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