The Manure Smell is overwhelming and toxic! What can we do about it??

Hello friends!

I understand that we are in an agricultural area, rich and beautiful and bountiful. I also understand that there is a need for fertilizer! ...However, when the smell wafts over the towns of Sebastopol, Cotati, Rohnert Park and even Santa Rosa, so badly, that families are forced to close up their windows and doors because their eyes are burning and their lungs are heaving into asthmatic-like reactions --- we have a serious problem!

I have heard so many neighbors talk about this problem, but they are too afraid to speak up in fear of people defending the agricultural rights and hearing hurtful things like 'go live somewhere else then...' But we are all living here together, contributing to this community and helping each other as we are able to. There are countless studies that show the toxicities of manure to humans. Especially in large doses! It seems that the smells have been getting progressively worse and worse for the last several years. It is extremely toxic, and it is also just embarrassing to have guests over. The disgusting overwhelming odors literally drive good people out of town, holding their noses and gagging. Where is it even coming from exactly? ...Something needs to be done.

I love it here so much! I do not want to leave! This smell is so frequent now, year-round it seems, and just so overwhelming, it is affecting my family's health very directly. It is starting to really scare me!

Please, does anyone have any realistic viable ideas about how we can solve this problem in a way that will keep the crops nurtured, without hurting the people anymore? We need to take away this disgusting poop smell that is seeping through our neighborhoods and our homes...

I've lived in Sebastopol for 35 years. Every year around this time, one can smell the manure wafting through the air. I personally don't mind it. It usually coincides with our late summer heat waves, which probably activate it more.

As a person with fairly severe chemical sensitivities, I'd rather smell manure than scented body products (even so called "natural ones") that most of Sonoma County residents think nothing of dousing themselves with, thus subjecting others to, on a daily basis.

The manure won't last long. Be grateful you live in such a beautiful part of the world and if you have to close your windows for a few weeks, as I do when the neighbors burn lighter fluid for Bar b ques or let their dogs bark constantly, then one has to adjust. Manure is a small price to pay for the abundance of wonderful farm products which define and enhance our county.

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Posted in reply to the post by Sonoma:

Hello friends!

I understand that we are in an agricultural area, rich and beautiful and bountiful. I also understand that there is a need for fertilizer! ...However, when the smell wafts over the towns of Sebastopol, Cotati, Rohnert Park and even Santa Rosa, so badly, that families are forced to close up their windows and doors because their eyes are burning and their lungs are heaving into asthmatic-like reactions --- we have a serious problem! ...

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As an organic farmer for the last 24 years, I have learned to appreciate the smell of manure coming from the dairy farm next to my fruit farm. That manure is some of the best natural fertilizer available. What is really toxic to our health are the chemical fertilizers. Sonoma County has a "Right to Farm" ordinance. I agree with the comment by Lili below.

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Posted in reply to the post by lili22:

I've lived in Sebastopol for 35 years. Every year around this time, one can smell the manure wafting through the air. I personally don't mind it. It usually coincides with our late summer heat waves, which probably activate it more....

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No mud, no lotus. ☺️

https://www.parallax.org/product/no-mud-no-lotus-the-art-of-transforming-suffering/

Does anyone know if the fertilizers being used are ones that are natural with no toxins added, or toxic ones? Maybe the issue is which type of fertilizers are being used and what's in them. If farmers are using toxic types, then maybe that can be changed, so that everyone can take a deep breath without triggering asthma or other respiratory problems. Anyone know for sure?

I do agree that this awful fertilizer smell seems to come around more often than once a year and I'd like to know why it smells so bad myself. It has become worse over the past 10 years, IMO, also. I am from farm country in the Midwest, and while California cows may be happy cows, they sure do seem to stink a lot worse. I especially don't understand why it all too often smells like dead animals are in the mix - manure should smell almost green and fresh. Is it a super high urine content,too? But, it doesn't burn my eyes or make me cough; I just dislike it immensely. I certainly don't encourage anyone to come visit this time of year. For all the work these neighboring cities put in to making their towns a tourist-pleasing spot, you'd think they'd want to change this part of the scenario.

Years ago while driving through heavy industry along the NJ Turnpike I commented to a friend about the acrid smells. June Taylor who held a PHD in microbiology relied, "Don't worry about those, the worst and most dangerous are odorless, colorless, and invisible".
Be glad you can smell it, here's why:
https://homeguides.sfgate.com/smell-...ous-85356.html

Let me understand you…. you ask, "Where is it even coming from exactly?" but immediately follow that with, "..Something needs to be done."

So…..You have already decided that something is a clear and present danger, an active health risk, because you've seen all the studies on it, but you don't actually know what that something really is because you don't know where it's coming from. But it SMELLS!!!! YOU SMELL SOMETHING! IT'S STRONG and OFFENSIVE and thus DANGEROUS! You're pretty sure it's manure, but you're not totally sure, because you don't know where it's coming from, but you know it's bad, as in-slowly killing you- bad, because, again, countless studies have already proven it. You're defending your right to protect yourself and your family against something which you'd like someone to tell you what exactly it is and where it's coming from….it's certainly something….bad. Aaaand you'd like to point out that a LOT of people think the same as you, and they are right, but they're too afraid to speak their mind for fear of being bullied and having their feelings hurt when the local-yokels, who incidentally are either really uninformed or must not mind being themselves or having their children poisoned, say hurtful things like, "Move somewhere else!."

Do I understand you correctly?!

Can I ask where exactly you live? Who are your neighbors? How long have you lived there, that you've noticed it's gotten so much worse in recent years? Exactly how familiar are you with the agricultural community in your area?… Because honestly….it sounds like you don't know much about our agricultural community (other than we're bullies). It sounds like you're wanting something done about something you don't know much about. I think you should start with finding out exactly what it is you're fighting against. What are the actual facts?! Start there... before championing the revolt.

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Posted in reply to the post by Sonoma:

Hello friends!

I understand that we are in an agricultural area, rich and beautiful and bountiful. I also understand that there is a need for fertilizer! ...However, when the smell wafts over the towns of Sebastopol, Cotati, Rohnert Park and even Santa Rosa, so badly, that families are forced to close up their windows and doors because their eyes are burning and their lungs are heaving into asthmatic-like reactions --- we have a serious problem!

I have heard so many neighbors talk about this problem, but they are too afraid to speak up in fear of people defending the agricultural rights and hearing hurtful things like 'go live somewhere else then...' But we are all living here together, contributing to this community and helping each other as we are able to. There are countless studies that show the toxicities of manure to humans. Especially in large doses! It seems that the smells have been getting progressively worse and worse for the last several years. It is extremely toxic, and it is also just embarrassing to have guests over. The disgusting overwhelming odors literally drive good people out of town, holding their noses and gagging. Where is it even coming from exactly? ...Something needs to be done.

I love it here so much! I do not want to leave! This smell is so frequent now, year-round it seems, and just so overwhelming, it is affecting my family's health very directly. It is starting to really scare me!

Please, does anyone have any realistic viable ideas about how we can solve this problem in a way that will keep the crops nurtured, without hurting the people anymore? We need to take away this disgusting poop smell that is seeping through our neighborhoods and our homes...

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Seriously?! Forego fertilizing our fields for the sake of pleasing the tourists?!!!! Un-bloody-believable.

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Posted in reply to the post by Willow:

For all the work these neighboring cities put in to making their towns a tourist-pleasing spot, you'd think they'd want to change this part of the scenario.

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You need to learn how to read, please. Go back and read it again.
And I don't appreciate the way you bashed the person who started this topic. You are being cruel intentionally.
Here's a word for you:
pre·ten·tious
prəˈten(t)SHəs/
adjective

• attempting to impress by affecting greater importance, talent, culture, etc., than is actually possessed.
  

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Posted in reply to the post by nancypreb:

Seriously?! Forego fertilizing our fields for the sake of pleasing the tourists?!!!! Un-bloody-believable.

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I'm sorry I hurt your feelings. Clearly you're very sensative. If you're done calling me names though, can you please explain what part I missed? I may not be as sensitive as you but I do like specificity.

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Posted in reply to the post by Willow:

You need to learn how to read, please. Go back and read it again.
And I don't appreciate the way you bashed the person who started this topic. You are being cruel intentionally.
Here's a word for you:
pre·ten·tious
prəˈten(t)SHəs/
adjective

• attempting to impress by affecting greater importance, talent, culture, etc., than is actually possessed.
  

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I love the smell of farmers fertilizing fields with natural fertilizer. I also smell my own since it is an important indicator of health. Chocolate cake, especially consumed in excess with a smorgasbord of other potluck delights, is particularly toxic. I pity others who have to smell that! (

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Posted in reply to the post by nancypreb:

Let me understand you….

...fear of being bullied ...

Do I understand you correctly?!...

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Indeed you do. And apparently that fear is well founded!

I see several people seem confused. The fertilizer you smell this time of year is not toxic. It is poop. It is cow poop, to be exact. It is part of living in our beautiful county. The farmers pump out their holding ponds on to their fields. The smell is the same every year, but the years weather patterns determine how strong the scent is in your area. Farmers have been using cow poop as fertilizer long before you moved here. How, exactly, do you think your wonderful organic veggies are grown? If you want local food, fertilized without horrible chemicals, it is the price you pay. Its kind of like knowingly purchasing a house next to an airport, then petitioning to have the airport removed because you don't like the noise and traffic.

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Posted in reply to the post by nancypreb:

Let me understand you…

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Nancy, you forgot the most important part of the complaint. This shit is TOXIC !!!!!

I am seriously concerned for a world where grown adults demonstrate the emotional stability of a tween! I'm sorry, but was I calling anyone names... "cruel", "pretentious," or suggest they are illiterate?! Just because one doesn't like the sound of their own logic and words when repeated back to them, doesn't make anyone a victim or a "BULLY!" It makes one more aware of how they sound to others. If you don't like what you hear when played back, perhaps reconsider what you thought was so important to say.

Let me know when your emotional stability has surpassed that of an elementary school counselor's office. In the meantime, just keep taking nice big deep breaths… counting to ten, in and out. It'll help get you in touch with that place from which the rest of the grown-ups function.

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Posted in reply to the post by Barry:

Indeed you do. And apparently that fear is well founded!

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Lately I've been finding a need to reread, "Nonviolent Communication, A Language of Compassion" by Marshall B. Rosenberg. In doing so, I see how I've fallen out of the habit of listening to and valuing everyone's opinions. It's been a good reminder to me about what I want from my communications and relationships with others. I recommend it to everyone. Somehow I hope we can all learn to communicate in ways that value everyone, even when we disagree.

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Posted in reply to the post by nancypreb:

I am seriously concerned for a world where grown adults demonstrate the emotional stability of a tween! ...

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The fact is this "disgusting poop smell" is how we sustainably fertilize our land. You have options which include tolerating it or moving to a more urban community. To expect farmers to destroy a sustainable livelihood so you won't be offended is ridiculous.

So, naturally, this resource of animal manure needs to be returned to the system, and as locally as possible (on-farm ideally). However, applying raw slurry from festering lagoons is no better than applying untreated sewage sludge directly to the land and, let it be known, our waterways and ground water. There's a reason the ground water in Valley Ford is undrinkable and carcinogenic due to nitrates - it's the improper management and handling of the systems of livestock. Manure that has sat anaerobically like this becomes nearly identical to applying chemical ammonia-nitrates to one's land, there's just a little more benefit due to the carbon content. This sort of fertilization regime is certainly far from ideal, as this sort of concentration of these reactive compounds is not only detrimental but poisonous to soil life. If it's this odoriferous then there's a good chance that it's also directly detrimental to the pasture plants themselves as well. Agriculture, beginning in the 19th century, has basically demonstrated that this form of "fertilization" degrades the productivity of land over the long term, so why should we be pardoning it?

But, the soils need this nutrition and we cannot deny them of it or we're up an even nastier shit creek, so to speak, so what to do? Well we need to incentivize farmers to compost their animal wastes, probably by offering subsidies and grants to develop (pay for, or make economical) on-farm composting programs. Perhaps more unpopularly by also waving a stick around for people who opt to not take the effort to do so. Fundamentally though we need to make it so that economically, and thus ethically, farmers are inclined to do it out of the benefits it provides them and not due to threats of reprisal.

Compost is a far better resource for the soil since it in fact promotes biology, soil life, while releasing nutrients slowly over time and allowing for the build-up of carbon. How much of what is currently being applied is just being lost over our rainy (knock on wood) winters because of its high solubility anyways? It's probably an egregious amount. If applying liquid slurry can be construed as some ideal way of moving some of the nutrients, then have grants for aeration systems to essentially brew manure teas. There are other alternatives than just "suck it up or leave, that's the way it's always been" or "get rid of all the animals!" Have grants and subsidies to build methane reactors to help run the tractors to spread the compost, to help run the composting equipment. As much as it pains me to say this, we're living in the 21st century here.

I remember what it smelled like last September, and it was far worse than driving through Jersey (I suppose it was another sort of Jersey, ahh a cow joke!). That acrid vomit smell isn't good for a damned thing, evidently other than causing conflict in the community. Last year it was a league beyond manure-stink, and somewhere off in orbit from cow-smell. If we're here as a community for the long haul, and not just some detached wraiths blowing through, we have to establish deep rich soils in which to sink our roots into. The same old, same old, hasn't been generating abundance for us, but leading to a slow and steady decline. We have to move beyond it and work to steward our land into a greater state. Transitioning away from antiquated practices and towards the biological ideals for whole system functioning is the only future we have a chance in, we have to start stewarding this work.

Did you know 68% of all dairy farms in Sonoma County are either Certified Organic or Transitioning? And while Marin has only 24 dairies, 17 of them are Certified Organic, making 75% of Marin's dairy production either Certified Organic or Transitioning? Did you know that according the your very own weblink https://homeguides.sfgate.com/smell-m...ous-85356.html it's not methane you smell but rather Hydrogen Sulfide? (Did you read the link?!!!) Did you read that you SMELL it when the gasses are at it's lowest levels. Did you read that it's most dangerous when the gas levels are at their highest particularly because YOU CAN'T SMELL IT?!! Again, this is YOUR link! And you do know that Hydrogen Sulfide is the same smell that occurs in natural geothermal springs?! You have really lovely childhood memories. I can appreciate that. However, it's probably not the best foundation for making suggestions as to the source of this "problem."

I'm gonna go with the smell is NOT methane, nor the chemicals used on our mostly Certified Organic milking room floors!

I'm gonna go with…. it's poo! Based on many years of performing daily bodily functions myself, I know for a fact; poo stinks! It does NOT smell like roses! And the reason we spread it in our fields at the end of Summer/ beginning Fall is so that we have the OPTIMUM opportunity to let it be absorbed by the soil, before disking, which turns it all into the soil (just like when you use a shovel in your veggie garden!) and breaks up the hard earth so as to create pockets that will ABSORB rain water, so as to PREVENT runoff and groundwater contamination. This is how it works…. and yes, it's smelly!!!

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Posted in reply to the post by sealwatcher:

I'm going to trust that memory and suggest that the smell is either the methane produced in the holding ponds or chemicals used to clean out the milking room floors.

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Posted in reply to the post by sealwatcher:

... a memory of being a kid in the 50's, When I smelled the manure from the dairies, it didn't smell the way it does now. There's an overlay of chemicals that causes my whole being to wince. It's not the sweet warm smell I remember. I'm going to trust that memory and suggest that the smell is either the methane produced in the holding ponds or chemicals used to clean out the milking room floors.

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I'm going to go with the idea that 50+ yr old memories of scent aren't to be particularly trusted.

For some reason this thread brings to mind Robert Duvall's comment about loving the scent of napalm in the morning - it smells like victory. In a weird way, I almost love these smells - to me it smells like flourishing ag. Anything that staves off the encroachment of Pleasantville, whatever that smells like, is a good thing.

I am more worried about cow milk than cow manure. The bloated dairy industry has feed us the lie that all babies and humans need cow milk. Not true. I am one of the many lactose intolerant persons. When I went off cow milk, my health was better. 20% of the milk market is now rice, soy, almond, and cashew milk. I was raised on milk and drink it every morning, but no longer provided by an animal, but by a plant.

I appreciate that the market is driving more Sonoma County dairies to be organic. This is a positive development. I have mild asthma and have had headache issues, but never from cow manure, which we had on our family farm in Iowa. I do consider the smell of my organic neighbors' cow poop to be "pleasant," in spite of what the article states. I even consider it to be sweet.

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Posted in reply to the post by nancypreb:

... Did you know that according the your very own weblink https://homeguides.sfgate.com/smell-m...ous-85356.html it's not methane you smell but rather Hydrogen Sulfide? (Did you read the link?!!!) Did you read that you SMELL it when the gasses are at it's lowest levels. Did you read that it's most dangerous when the gas levels are at their highest particularly because YOU CAN'T SMELL IT?!! Again, this is YOUR link! ...

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Putting aside your continued bullying, I don't think you understood what the link you cited said:

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The rotten egg smell is present when the gas is at lower levels. Animals and people who breathe it suffer from headaches, dizziness and nausea. The danger occurs when the gas is at higher levels -- not only does it lose its scent, but the results of inhaling the gas are far more dire: sudden respiratory failure, coma and death.

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If we take this at face value, or more precisely nose value, given that we can smell it, it can cause "headaches, dizziness and nausea", if not death. I don't think this is an appropriate application of Nietzsche's maxim of "What does not kill me, makes me stronger" . Just because it doesn't literally kill people doesn't mean it's not a problem that should be addressed or at least looked into.

And while your point that a majority of the local dairies are organic or transitional is welcome, that doesn't speak to their manure management practices.

I support Sonoma County's Right to Farm Ordinance, but I don't think it should exempt them from being good neighbors nor from conforming with dairy best practices.

This is a link I sent and you've highlighted the point of why I sent it. Perhaps you also noted that my friends quote mentioned that the most dangerous gases are invisible and odorless. —Ron

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Posted in reply to the post by nancypreb:

...Did you know that according the your very own weblink https://homeguides.sfgate.com/smell-m...ous-85356.html it's not methane you smell but rather Hydrogen Sulfide? ...

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I have lived in the area for 63 years. It smells far less bad in the majority of our area than when I was young. It used to really stink in Petaluma when Royal Tallow operated a rendering plant by the Petalma River. Talk about a sickening stink. I know guys that worked there that would go home take a shower and smell ok then when they would get it on with wife or girlfriend the stink would come out of their pores and that was the end of the sex. Graton smelled so bad at times it was know as the armpit of Sonoma County. As far as this stink being toxic, no I don't think so. Some of the anaerobic bacteria that is in these tanks can be smelled in extremely minute concentrations. That's why they use it to odorize natural gas. It won't hurt you. Any symptoms are most likely being caused by fear. It was my understanding that cheese whey fed to the cows has something to do with the stink.

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Posted in reply to the post by Ronaldo:

This is a link I sent and you've highlighted the point of why I sent it. Perhaps you also noted that my friends quote mentioned that the most dangerous gases are invisible and odorless. —Ron

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They do make an odorless fertilizer. I use to live in the middle of a Vineyard & I never smelled anything. I know nothing about the fertilizer they used, so there's always the possibility that it is terrible for mother earth but there is also the possibility that it is a safe and organic product.

You know what Barry, you're right, you're completely right, you're so incredibly RIGHT!!! These stupid organic dairy farmers. They apparently don't give a literal shit about anyone or anything except pippin' out the ladies and killin' their babies. If only they knew what the Wacco's know. If only the people from the city with a steel-trap memory could educate the dumb country folk, who obviously don't care about our air, water, or planet, on how to eat, walk, and talk. Meanwhile, Nancy Prebilich is a meanest, cruelest, most vitriolic, venomous, pretentious, illiterate bully in all the land (Did I get all the names I've been called here on this peaceful, tolerant site of yours?!".)

When did Sebastopol/West County become so righteous, dare I say "pretentious? Peace, love, and harmony- so long as you live like me!You know what's killing this planet? PEOPLE. You say it's too many animals? Fine- kill all the pigs, kill all the cows to spare us from the toxic poo. Or wait, I'm sorry… are we suppose to SAVE all the animals, shut down the slaughter houses and processing plants and rescue them from their inhumane demise, because THAT will surely solve the poo problem! Either way, when ALL of that is done, ya'll need to have your sons castrated and your daughters sterilized so that the rest of us can live long healthy lives on quinoa and coconut milk. You all need to be like me. Stop procreating! Stop making more mouths to feed! But now…that's just crazy-talk!

Yes, Barry, I understand the link just fine, hence the reason why you couldn't put if not death in quotes! And just because someone has to close their windows or gets a headache does not mean we all have to turn vegan. And yes, Barry, organic certification DOES cover manure management practices, and nobody is being EXEMP from shit!

Tipsheet: Manure in OrganicProduction Systems

Stop. Just stop this righteous, PC, holier-than-thou, "I'm a victim," ignorance-based rhetoric.

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Posted in reply to the post by Barry:

Putting aside your continued bullying, I don't think you understood what the link you cited said:...

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When I started reading all the comments about the smells, I hoped to learn more about what is really happening. What causes the smell, what about it causes some people health problems. I really wanted to know, not who is right or wrong, but to get as much information as possible, and openly look at other info than what I have.There has been some good information, and links to follow through this Wacco conversation, so I feel more knowledgeable than I did before. It seems to me that the more informed we all are, the better choices and changes we can make.

I was wondering last night if any of the dairy farmers who are involved in the manure processing, might respond to this site and give their input as to what they are actually experiencing, what their needs are, how the community might help if needed. If anyone else has any other new or helpful info to share, thanks.

I hear you Carol and I do appreciate what you are saying with respect to what you were hoping to get out of reading the comments on this peaceful, tolerant, community-oriented bulletin board. But when an inquiry starts with,

"...we have a serious problem!...It is extremely toxic... embarrassing to have guests over. The disgusting overwhelming odors literally drive good people out of town, holding their noses and gagging….We need to take away this disgusting poop smell that is seeping through our neighborhoods and our homes…"

what you have is someone/ a group of people not coming to the table wanting information and education. You have entitlement, arrogance, and ignorance. If indeed the question was simply "Hey, can someone please explain Sonoma Aroma?!" then I can almost promise you'd get a different reaction, at least from folks like me. And when I say "like me," I might be the closest you'll find to one of these dairy farmers whom you were hoping to find on this site.

My family has been dairying in this county since 1856. My grandmother came from a dairy in Petaluma and moved to my grandfather's dairy in Bodega after they got married. We just sold that ranch 3 years ago. All of great-grandma's 6 boys stayed in the local dairy business from Valley Ford to Petaluma, and most of the girls married into dairy families too. Most of my cousins are still in the business, mostly in Petaluma but some have moved to Tulare. My mother's brother became one of the top 3 USDA dairy inspectors in the state of California… I was born from and raised in this horrible, toxic, inconsiderate, problematic local dairy community. I can promise you, you will not find any of those people on this website…. they simply don't have the time, nor energy to put into such nonsense as trying to be convinced that they're driving away guests and slowly killing their community with their toxic ways. They have no patience for google links about the beef industry in Brazil, or to be told to stop using toxic chemicals on their milking floors by folks who grew up in LA. But I can also promise you this…. if you really JUST wanted to know, without declarations, without assertions, without accusations, without victimization… they would tell you what everyone else has been saying on this thread; it's poo, and you're fine.

The problem is that some people don't want to hear the answer which is- it's ok. Because they smell something/feel something/ have a reaction to something, they automatically leap from considering self-mitigation to "We have a problem!" You have a headache? I feel ya- I get hay fever. But we don't need to stop spreading the poo in Fall any more than we need to stop cutting the grass in Spring. If it's really that bad, one might consider moving. We're not forcing you anymore than you're trying to force us all to be vegans. We're just saying "we" don't have a problem, but we understand that "you" might. If indeed all one wants to know is "what it is," don't come with "It has to STOP!" attitude. Don't conflate concern about potential health issues with driving away tourism and embarrassment for your guests. (Btw, Carol… please don't interpret my train of thought here as an accusation against you specifically…I'm just trying to explain why you won't get a dairy farmer on this thread or this site.)

I've only been alive 42 years, but those 42 years are rooted right here in west county, proceeded by 118 years (specifically dairying) on my mother's side in Bodega, and 104 years on my dad's in Sebastopol. But even that inside connection won't convince some that the beef in Brazil has nothing to do with the smell in Sonoma! That you're not going to die- you're just annoyed, and your annoyance does not a problem make. And yes, if you really can't stand it…. for your sake, and everyone else's, move on.

Now if you'll excuse me, I actually do need to go milk Nelly.

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Posted in reply to the post by cw707:

When I started reading all the comments about the smells, I hoped to learn more about what is really happening. What causes the smell, what about it causes some people health problems...

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I think this should pretty much wrap up this thread. Nobody could accuse Nancy of bullying here, and she clearly states why she is qualified to have her point of view at least taken seriously, and she clearly states what seems to me to be a very reasonable and non confrontive point of view.

In my opinion this thread has generated far more heat than light and continued back and forth is just driving people further apart.

Patrick Brinton

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Posted in reply to the post by nancypreb:

I hear you Carol and I do appreciate what you are saying ....

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Wow. I am far from being politically correct, but Nancy, you have got 'issues'. Don't know what they are, but I suggest you step back from your knee jerk reactions, think about it, review, then hit the send button. I'll bet you would be mortified a week or so from now when you re-read what you are spewing.

Or not. In that case, please spare the rest of us your subjective ranting.

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Posted in reply to the post by nancypreb:

You know what Barry, you're right, you're completely right, you're so incredibly RIGHT!!! ....

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Is it true that the manure and some urine is liquefied and then sprayed in the pastures that cows then use for grazing? If so, that seems gross. I assume there is a waiting period before cows eat from those pastures? Also, I always assumed it was a necessary smell. Now I wonder if spraying on the hottest days of summer is necessary. Why is that?
Please don't jump down my throat if I worded my questions wrong. I love cows.

One solution:
Vick’s Vapor Rub can be rubbed under your nose. It won’t help the scent go away, but it will give you something else to smell.

Don't mess with Nancy, she will rip your guts out and eat you for lunch, with glee. A proud carnivore is she. West county is the kind of country where small farm, integrated agriculture, agrarian pastoral mashup makes sense you see. Some celebrate, some critique, we all gotta eat. Most don't have the integrity, to slaughter an animal raised well, perhaps named, and eat knowing the look in its eye, knowing the consciousness and soul of death, which brings life.

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Posted in reply to the post by JayS:

Wow. I am far from being politically correct, but Nancy, you have got 'issues'...

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Here in the state of california if you are a native one is well aware of agg and cattle,and dairy cows are part of the environment ,and have been for 200 plus years ,if one has objections to odors ,that we superior humans so cleverly conceal and ,sanitize :then as a odorobjectifyer ,some choices have to be made.

Instead of the legislating out of farm smells ,as seen in the tragic loss of organic soil co. at.. Mecham rd because supervisor board members or others I'm not shure object to rotting organic leaf matter. And so If you prefer a perfect wine tasting, summer villa with none of the troubling olfactory sensations, then may I suggest a holographic test tube in Los Angeles.,thank you ,hanford for agg/cows,chickens.

Both grabngrow and Sonoma compost at the dump have struggled with neighbors ready to lawyer up and shut down the stink and traffic. It's a lifestyle thing I hope you see, so a private company bends over backwards and the county (ie bos), bails, to the detriment of sustainability. Sweet compost is lost, perfection is pushed farther away, in the name of accountability. This is the crazy way of our society.

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Posted in reply to the post by sealwatcher:

I've sure felt the loss of our recycling facilities, ...

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right on!
it's amazing how much smell we tolerate from the verbal bullshit of our elected officials who make so many stinky deals....

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Posted in reply to the post by hanford:

Here in the state of california if you are a native one is well aware of agg and cattle,and dairy cows are part of the environment ,and have been for 200 plus years ,if one has objections to odors ,that we superior humans so cleverly conceal and ,sanitize :then as a odorobjectifyer ,some choices have to be made.

Instead of the legislating out of farm smells ,as seen in the tragic loss of organic soil co. at.. Mecham rd because supervisor board members or others I'm not shure object to rotting organic leaf matter. And so If you prefer a perfect wine tasting, summer villa with none of the troubling olfactory sensations, then may I suggest a holographic test tube in Los Angeles.,thank you ,hanford for agg/cows,chickens.

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I have read many of the comments to: 'The Manure Smell is overwhelming and toxic! What can we do about it??"
And, have been dismayed by so many who have suggested to those who object to the stench that they realize it is part of farming agriculture culture over decades and that those of us who feel it needs to be sanitized get with the program and get over it; as well, as some who have suggested our politics are suspect and that we are in need of overall deprogramming from any mainstream reality that likes our air to smell good...umm?

The question the person posed with complete credibility relates to: What can we do about it? This to me is the crux of this issue not all the obnoxious remarks about a person's lack of Green Earth Warrior/Goddess authenticity and being able to bear with stench but about how to alleviate this problem which is apparently causing many to have respiratory distress, headaches, and in general a need to close themselves off from pursuing out of doors activities...

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Posted in reply to the post by Willow:

I do agree that this awful fertilizer smell seems to come around more often than once a year and I'd like to know why it smells so bad myself. It has become worse over the past 10 years, IMO, also. I am from farm country in the Midwest, and while California cows may be happy cows, they sure do seem to stink a lot worse. I especially don't understand why it all too often smells like dead animals are in the mix - manure should smell almost green and fresh. Is it a super high urine content,too? But, it doesn't burn my eyes or make me cough; I just dislike it immensely. I certainly don't encourage anyone to come visit this time of year. For all the work these neighboring cities put in to making their towns a tourist-pleasing spot, you'd think they'd want to change this part of the scenario.

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I'm also from farm country in Minnesota and I do agree this manure we smell here is a much more " aromatic" blend. I first attributed it to the fact that I literally live next-door to a farm, and took it with a grain of salt as part of the price of being able to walk next-door and get amazing fresh fruit and veggies. Having lived in the city for almost 40 years that's a real treat!

On the flipside, however, it is kind of nauseating during the heat waves. I usually burn a scented candle but do have a post on here looking for a new place to live.... Not that it appears the smell will be different there. Having said that, I just figured this smell is part of the price of living in such a beautiful location. But now I'm extremely disconcerted to hear that it could be literally toxic. I'll be following this thread closely to see what comes of that Discussion.

I'm just wondering if everyone is looking at the right culprit. I was told that the strong odor has more to do with whey the byproduct of making yogurt, cheese and cottage cheese. This whey is fed to cattle, and or spread on the fields at a certain times of the year as far more whey is produced that can be used locally.

I think anyone who eats meat, or dairy should try living within 10 miles of a CAFO, even just for a week.
Marketing & media have so separated reality from the supermarket that people don't understand what they are asking.

This discussion reminds me of the people who despise veal while consuming dairy daily.

Hallelujah and Amen!
thank you- i would not have said it so nice/nice
i was trying to imagine the sight of "good people" driving out of town in droves-

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Posted in reply to the post by nancypreb:

I hear you Carol and I do appreciate what you are saying ...

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I have live in the same place for 28 yrs, just north of increasingly stuentrchtown (stupid entitled rich town aka sebastopol). The smell has been less frequent over the years, consistent in flavor. Smell Memory? The definition of Subjectivity!

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Posted in reply to the post by kittymama23:

I'm also from farm country in Minnesota and I do agree this manure we smell here is a much more " aromatic" blend. ...

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I am a west county native. This is where I grew up, and now I am raising my children here. Honestly, if you have an issue with the smell I think it's time to move on. "Sonoma Aroma" is part of living here. It's not toxic, just stinky. It's really just local farmers using the poo from their cows to fertilize their fields in order to have pasture for the cows that made the poo next season. Seriously, could you not have a better closed loop system?

Don't fear the poo. It's GOOD.

Interesting reading - on both sides. But I have a lighter side I just have to share.
While visiting the Cradle of Mankind in South Africa - I smelled the most wonderful flower - it smelled purple to me and I hunted all around the gardens but no luck.

A few weeks later, I was in a fish camp on the Zambezi and smelled it again, but alas, I could not find that wonderful purple flower.

Upon returning to my beloved Sebastopol, low and behold! The flower was here and I smelled it frequently!
Eventually (and I won't say how) I discovered that my new status in life (probably menopause) was making (you guessed it) POOP SMELL PURPLE!

Thank you Beanie for bringing some sanity to this place. :abduct:

Vote for Noreen Evans!

Why? Does one of them stink less? I just saw both of them today at the the low river flow hearing. I have no idea what either of them think about a scheduled public hearing about long term environmental policy where the feds aid the bos in toileting the river to get more water for novato. And it starts over an hour late so people like me with small children can't participate. Find out for me will ya?

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Posted in reply to the post by mouse:

Vote for Noreen Evans!

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Barry, I mean this with my fullest, deepest sincerity. You are one of the most intelligent, heart-filled men I have ever encountered. You seriously have such a deep, wise and assured way of communicating! People should take note -literally- of how you respond; with confidence, fairness and kindness. Thank you!!!!

It is disappointing to see all of the responses that just came out with boxing gloves on, happy to start fighting and hurting others who experience life differently than they do. But I am deeply grateful to those who thoroughly read my sincere question and tried to suggest solutions.

I really meant it when I said that I was hoping this community had realistic viable ideas about how we can solve this problem in a way that will keep the crops nurtured, without hurting the people anymore. I am a Northern California native. Born and raised here. I understand, and deeply respect the earth and the agricultural processes here in beautiful Sonoma Wine Country! Still, when many of our bodies are having serious diminishing health reactions to the overwhelming fertilizer odors, then the manure is becoming toxic. The negative health reaction is the very definition of toxicity. This is a very real and sincere problem. If we cannot communicate respectfully, the problem will only get worse.

Thank you, Barry, and everyone else, who has shown heart and intelligent thought in this important issue facing our community. Please, let's pull together and find a solution that will not hurt the crops or the people! ~All LOVE :heart:

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Posted in reply to the post by Barry:

Putting aside your continued bullying, I don't think you understood what the link you cited said:


If we take this at face value, or more precisely nose value, given that we can smell it, it can cause "headaches, dizziness and nausea", if not death. I don't think this is an appropriate application of Nietzsche's maxim of "What does not kill me, makes me stronger" . Just because it doesn't literally kill people doesn't mean it's not a problem that should be addressed or at least looked into.

And while your point that a majority of the local dairies are organic or transitional is welcome, that doesn't speak to their manure management practices.

I support Sonoma County's Right to Farm Ordinance, but I don't think it should exempt them from being good neighbors nor from conforming with dairy best practices.

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I believe that if you call out a problem, it is also your responsibility to suggest a solution. So what would you have done about the fact that cow shit stinks and farmers spread it on their fields in the Fall? Would you outlaw it as an unacceptable agricultural nuisance, proven by science to be toxic? In our lawyer driven society be carefull what questions you ask, you might get what you want.

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Posted in reply to the post by Sonoma:

...I really meant it when I said that I was hoping this community had realistic viable ideas about how we can solve this problem in a way that will keep the crops nurtured, without hurting the people anymore. ...

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This thread got me reading up on shit, shit stink, cow waste and the like. Somethings of note from that reading.

Everyones smell sensitivity is different and can be vastly different. By vastly differnt I mean by a hunderd times or more. Or put another way for a smell to be objectionalbe to one person at 1 part per billion and the next person 100 parts per billion wont bother even though both find the odor objectionable. Smell sensitivety to certain odors tends to run in families. Women of child bearing years tend to be more sensitive. So when someone says it's effecting my whole family that has merrit. Odors are the strongest sense connedt to our emotions. While this strong smell can bring on fear and discomfort for some it reminds me of long summer days as a teen in the Petaluma area just hanging out by my friends swimming pool listening to the new group The Beatles. I don't like the smell but it is like any other smell to me and even brings back fond memories.

Certain chemicals produced from the natural anarobic breakdown of manure are odorous to some people in a concentration of 1]6 part PER BILLION. What this means is even though it smells like hell you are likely getting very little actual exposure unless you live right by a dairy or feed lot. If you live in the west county your exposure to untested on humans pesticides, and fungicides from agriculture, mostly grapes now is likely dozens of times greater. Just because you can't smell it doesn't mean you aren't getting it. The bees may be telling you the story.

These super smelly by products of anaerobic manure breakdown vary considerably depending on what the cows are eating and which proteins are making it out the cows asshole. This is why I have been pointing to the cheese whey that is often fed to the cows in the west county. So when someone says I lived by a dairy back east and it didn't smell this strong that is probibly right. Also things like humidity which is very low here this time of the year can have a lot to do with how far an odors will travel.

As I pointed out before one of the smelliest byproducts of anerobic manure breakdown is used to odorize natural gas and propane because you can smelled it in less than point 2 parts per billion. Most of the really toxic ag chemicals don't smell at all. And the one that does smell the sulfur isn't toxic. In other words if given the choice of not being exposed to the agrochemicals in our area or the shit by product odor take the not being exposed to the agichemicals.

Most of the time the nose knows but I believe not in this case.

I appreciate your in depth research. Although I dislike the smell of manure when I step outside to enjoy the beautiful weather, I've never considered that it might be toxic. I'm more concerned with the spraying of Round Up around the senior park where I live, even though it doesn't smell. Since my cat eats grass, I try to keep her away from the sprayed grass, at least for a few days. Many residents don't know and wouldn't care because they use Round Up themselves.

What you said about everyone's sensitivity being vastly different is so true. I'm seeing a lot of extreme reactions to the noise of the Smart Train. Some love it because it reminds them of the "good ole days" when they were children, or any fond memories they associate with the sound. Others hate it, and are appealing to the cities to initiate a lower decibel sound, especially when near homes. Novato has been successful, so that's encouraging to Rohnert Park residents.

Other issues about Smart Train are that it intrudes on privacy in one's backyard or even inside the house unless windows are covered. That's going to be up to the residents to deal with on their own, since Smart Train isn't going to build a "privacy wall".

Our preferences vary so much. It would seem that most people want to live in Sebastopol, and many can't quite comprehend why I don't. I may be in the minority, but that's actually nothing new. I've never been one to go along with the crowd, and even now, you won't see me with my eyes glued on a cell phone display while driving, or walking along a sidewalk, or sitting with friends at a restaurant. My preference is to be aware of what's around me, and to appreciate the brief time I have to interact with friends. But again, that puts me in the minority category.

Maybe it would be a good idea for you start a thread on smart train? Or cell phones? Especially given your strong feelings on such topics.

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Posted in reply to the post by Shandi:

I appreciate your in depth research. ...

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Thank you again to all of the people who have given the kind respectful responses! It means a lot, and reflects highly on you as well. ...Thank you!!

Here is more proof of the toxicity of manure! This area is full of aging adults and people with chronic illness and sensitivities. This really is serious. This is a short, but scary and honest news report from academic research on the dangers of simple (chemicle-free, no additives, etc.) manure:
https://extension.psu.edu/plants/crops/news/2012/10/beware-of-toxic-gases-from-manure-storages


(PS. I will not respond to any of the rude judgmental and bullying comments here. ...If this comment offends you personally, then you may just be one of the few who have done the offending yourself. Look inside yourself before you act on your desire to hurt someone else. ...Again, to everyone else with kind hearts and respectful comments, I appreciate you good people very very much!!) :-)

My goal on this thread is to find out more an possibly lessen the fear some people may be having over this issue. This article reminds me of the time as a Graton Fire Figher the department went to a call at Martini and Pratti winnery on Laguna Rd. They had almost exactly the same setup as this article described. They had large inground fermenting pools. Think of several swimming pools side by side. Fermentation was going on in one and the others were empty. As the grapes fermented for wine making the empty pool filled up with heavier than air carbon dioxide. One worker dropped something and went down in the tank to retrieve it and keeled over, a second guy went in to try to pull him out and he went down. By the time firefighters got there two were dead and a third guy was saved though he probibly was never the same.

So yes the fermentation process can cause deadly gasses. However it's all about the concentration. Those guys went into a 100% CO2 environment. So 100% CO2 kills you and kills you fast doesn't that mean even a small amount of CO2 is bad for you? No it doesn't mean that at all. We breath carbon dioxide in every breath, always have and always will. Without it life as we know it would not exist on earth. It was probibly CO2 that took the boys down in the article you posed. Anarobic bacteria as found in dairy shit ponds and tanks also produces other gasses but that is not what you are smelling. I do not believe that even a measurable amout of elevated carbon dioxide or the other gases mentioned in the article could be measured in the Sebastopol area and certainly not at dangerous levels. IIt just doesn't work that way. You are probibly getting far more from the wine operations anyway.

Put another way if you were to sequester the gasses that can be dangerous to humans in high levels from your car from a trip to San Francisco and inhale it directly it would kill you in minutes, same with a bakery from yeast action or the leaves decaying under the trees at your house or your neighbors wood stove, or you home heating. It's all about concentrations and just because it smells bad does not mean that you are breathing high concentrations of dangerous gasses.

I'm going to try reeeeally hard to be veeeeery gentle with you, here- understanding how incredibly sensitive you are. I read your article. I'm not understanding how it is that context eludes you. This case that you use to prove your point is much like the scenario that Goat Rock Ukulele describes; it's referring to manure pits/storage structures and on-site farm operations. Do you live next to and/or spend a lot of time around manure storage structures?! I don't. Never have. I don't know a lot of people that do. I do know a lot of people who work in and around potentially hazardous materials and environments, where accidents can/have happened when proper precautions were not heeded, but I really, honestly do not know very many people, particularly aging adults or those with chronic diseases, who are generally affected by potentially hazardous work environments they are not actively engaged in. You could run the gamut of all the occupations that deal with concentrated gasses and hazardous waste materials and spend your days and nights worrying about a minuscule potential risk of being harmed by undetectable gasses, the probability of which is extremely low for anyone not actively engaged in the potentially hazardous environment, but that still wouldn't solve the issue which started this thread- the offensive SMELL. Your story here, just like GRU's, is a one-off accident that occurred in a work environment that the GENERAL PUBLIC is not subjected to. It is specifically about the process of agitating manure in an on-site setting. This is the piece that you seem to not quite understand. These were farm kids who live and play at the job site, not the general population. Have you any idea how many potential hazards there are on a farm? Have you any idea how much potential danger farm families are subjected to, that the general public never ever has to encounter?! If you are still genuinely concerned about your risk of toxic poisoning as a result of manure agitation, I would definitely heed the recommended precautions stated in your article, namely "Bystanders and nonessential workers should stay away during agitation and manure pump-out operations."

I would like to thank everyone who has been level-headed. I would like to thank everyone who is not an alarmist. I would like to thank everyone who has a kind heart, is rational, and speaks their mind freely. It reflects highly on you.

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Posted in reply to the post by Sonoma:

Thank you again to all of the people who have given the kind respectful responses! It means a lot, and reflects highly on you as well. ...Thank you!!

Here is more proof of the toxicity of manure! This area is full of aging adults and people with chronic illness and sensitivities. This really is serious. This is a short, but scary and honest news report from academic research on the dangers of simple (chemicle-free, no additives, etc.) manure:
https://extension.psu.edu/plants/crops/news/2012/10/beware-of-toxic-gases-from-manure-storages
...

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I'm confident that the local dairy farmers are aware of the dangers of "manure storage", they have kids too. However, the thread is about the use of manure as it is spread onto the fields and not about the concentrated gases that accumulate in storage areas. A study that indicates danger or harm from using manure spread on fields would be more pertinent to this discussion. Perhaps the researchers at Penn State addressed that issue as well. Here is their contact link: https://extension.psu.edu/plants/crops/contact

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Posted in reply to the post by Sonoma:

...Here is more proof of the toxicity of manure! ...
https://extension.psu.edu/plants/cro...anure-storages

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Posted in reply to the post by Goat Rock Ukulele:

...They had large inground fermenting pools. Think of several swimming pools side by side. Fermentation was going on in one and the others were empty. As the grapes fermented for wine making the empty pool filled up with heavier than air carbon dioxide. One worker dropped something and went down in the tank to retrieve it and keeled over, a second guy went in to try to pull him out and he went down. By the time firefighters got there two were dead and a third guy was saved though he probibly was never the same.

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a similar thing happened to a bunch of people over a wide area:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Nyos

but gasses by their nature diffuse really fast. It really isn't reasonable to worry about low concentrations of things that are only 'toxic' in extremely high ones.

What many don't seem to get is our manure and how we dispose of it also stinks and comes out the top (hopefully), of any building with modern plumbing. Co2, hydrogen sulfide, methane and ammonia, it's all there right at our rooftops from our own excrement.

:hmmm: It is so strange to me that this very reasonable question about manure has caused some extremely vehement replies from people who apparently really love the smell of poop! Yikes. Come on people, put on your big kid pants and attain some composure.

The question was respectful toward farmers and non-farmers alike. But some of these angry aggressive replies, defending how delicious shit smells, sound like the aggressive people are on drugs or something. It makes no sense. Pat's original question was kind and clear. There is a real concern from a lot of us Sonoma County residents about the growing pungency of the cow poop smells! It is not unreasonable to look to the community for some happy-medium answers. It is not just one time per year, it is year round now, off and on. I've lived here forever now, and it has definitely gotten much worse in recent years. It has gotten harsher and sharper. It is not okay that we have to lock ourselves in our houses and avoid asking friends and relatives to come to town because of the overwhelming punch of shit in the air. To start yelling at the poor people who are concerned about their directly-effected health and safety, just makes you a really awful neighbor.

Educate yourself on emotional intelligence and learn to communicate as respectable/respected adults.

**People are getting ill from the overwhelming manure. That means that it is toxic.** Very easy concept to understand. Let's get some real ideas up here. No more petulant name-calling and belittlement. Let's see more of the good neighbors here.

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Posted in reply to the post by Sam:

:hmmm: It is so strange to me that this very reasonable question about manure has caused some extremely vehement replies from people who apparently really love the smell of poop! Yikes. Come on people, put on your big kid pants and attain some composure.

The question was respectful toward farmers and non-farmers alike. But some of these angry aggressive replies, defending how delicious shit smells, sound like the aggressive people are on drugs or something....

Educate yourself on emotional intelligence and learn to communicate as respectable/respected adults.

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I didn't think people wearing big-boy pants were that sensitive... somehow I lack the emotional intelligence to see the excessive aggression you mention. Or for that matter, any lack of composure in the posters. Why is 'vehement' a pejorative???? Also, I haven't noticed a lot of people begging for mercy from their attackers. There have been past Wacco threads where this wasn't the case - but this seems way within bounds. How decorous should a thread about poop be, anyway??

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**People are getting ill from the overwhelming manure. That means that it is toxic.** Very easy concept to understand. Let's get some real ideas up here. No more petulant name-calling and belittlement. Let's see more of the good neighbors here.

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see, here is an assertion without defense, made as if it's self evident. If that doesn't cry out for equally blunt rebuttal, I don't know what would.

I couldn't have said it better myself... Aggression? Lack of composure? I must be reading the wrong thread. I don't see any of that. Maybe someone is mis-reading a difference in opinion as aggression by default?

I still want to know what the solution is for those that want the farmers to stop using manure (that they have, for free, and is all natural)? Would you prefer synthetic chemical fertilizers? This is really quite simple. I don't know that any of us "love the smell of poop," but I will take that any day over synthetics.

Strong smells give me a headache. It's not because they are toxic, but more that I am sensitive to them. Am I out there asking people to stop planting lavender in their yards because it gives me a headache (and by some of the logic here - it must be toxic!!)? No, I'm not. We can't ask everyone to change THEIR lives to suit US. It's selfish. Seriously, if you're having such a serious reaction to something it is probably best to distance yourself from it rather than expect a whole way of life for a whole community to change for YOU.

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Posted in reply to the post by podfish:

I didn't think people wearing big-boy pants were that sensitive... somehow I lack the emotional intelligence to see the excessive aggression you mention. Or for that matter, any lack of composure in the posters. Why is 'vehement' a pejorative???? Also, I haven't noticed a lot of people begging for mercy from their attackers. There have been past Wacco threads where this wasn't the case - but this seems way within bounds. How decorous should a thread about poop be, anyway??
see, here is an assertion without defense, made as if it's self evident. If that doesn't cry out for equally blunt rebuttal, I don't know what would.

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Here is more than you would ever want to know about this subject from University of SanDiego.

https://www.calrecycle.ca.gov/Public...5C44207001.pdf

Ah, man... And the snarky self-riotousness comes out again. It's almost ironic, how even my comment (and others' comments) about kindness and composure in debates gets criticized. A difference of opinion isn't the problem! It's the way in which a few (not all, not most even) people are coming on here, just to sound-off and belittle others. Those aggressors are just proving my point with these holier-than-though responses! And yes, it is aggressive; if you cannot see that, then you likely have many dysfunctional relationships in your life and shouldn't be spending your time here on this forum, when your life is in such disarray. (Yes, I am joking. Just trying to be lighter here. We need to all just calm down a little. Breeeathe.) :-) Look. The problem isn't the difference of opinion-- the problem is talking down to people, trying to make them look bad because of the difference of opinion.

So let's try to go back to the original question asked: "Please, does anyone have any realistic viable ideas about how we can solve this problem in a way that will keep the crops nurtured, without hurting the people anymore?"

(Don't respond just because you want to fight and feel 'right' over someone else. Do respond if you have a true rational resolution to this totally reasonable and respectful question. So many comments are about emotionally defending manure! Oh, dear God. And not about the question, seeking a solution to make more neighbors comfortable. People are fearful and uncomfortable, coming here to seek comfort; not debate on why you love shit so much. Haha! Every person here matters. We are mostly all hardworking goodhearted contributing members of this community; and when someone is scared about their health due to an overwhelming pungency of shit in the air, they have a right to go to their community and ask for help. It is so so simple. Still responding with snotty belittlement just makes *you* look really bad. Believe me. Just step away from the keyboard and take a breather before you respond with angry belittlement. Otherwise, you just look like a really really mean clueless neighbor again.) C'mon, let's be nice! And let's actually answer the question! :-)

I'm sensitive to ordinary smells like raw onions, most perfumes (worn or in products) bleach, ammonia, car exhaust, mothballs, and manure, among other things. I realize that I really can't control these things. The only thing I can do is retreat to my room, because these odors are created by my housemate's habits. Since we have a few veggies growing in front, I get to smell manure as I approach the front door. It makes me feel a little sick, but I get over it quickly. I did get rid of the 5 boxes of mothballs that were really making me sick, and fearful for myself and my kitty. My landlord was oblivious to the toxic fumes he was creating in his room.

If people are actually ending up having to receive medical care from manure toxicity, I think it would be advisable to move away from the country, especially since they're paying a premium to live here.

I think that what's truly ironic is that the person who is call for "kindness and composure" is the ONLY one calling names and making personal attacks. #winning :thumbsup:

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Posted in reply to the post by Sam:

Ah, man... And the snarky self-riotousness comes out again. ...

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I agree! I can't be around or use about 99% of scented products. People wearing perfumes can force me to use my inhaler. It sucks, but it's part of my reality. I can control what's used in my own home and space, but it's really hard to do that elsewhere. It's about knowing your limits and working within them. At least we aren't alone. :wink:

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Posted in reply to the post by Shandi:

I'm sensitive to ordinary smells like raw onions, most perfumes ....

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Right?!! It's AMAZING… just AMAZING.

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Posted in reply to the post by monicapl:

I think that what's truly ironic is that the person who is call for "kindness and composure" is the ONLY one calling names and making personal attacks. #winning :thumbsup:

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First off: :chillpill::chillpill:

As I see it there are 2 questions on the table:

1) Has the manure smell gotten worse from decades ago? If so, why? Changes in methods of holding or distributing/applying it? Changes in animal diet? More acreage being treated? Changes or cessation of composting? Is this being reported elsewhere? Is there any measurement available for it?

2) Is there anything can be done to reduce the smell? Even if the same techniques are being used as long ago, it doesn't mean that is the current best practice. Not using manure is not one of the options (despite the many deleterious environmental effect of raising livestock).

Some research is called for. I suggest those of you who are complaining "dig in" a bit and report back some ideas.

Here are some links to get you started:

https://pubstorage.sdstate.edu/AgBio...s/ESS803-D.pdf
https://dairy.ifas.ufl.edu/other/fil...arch-brief.pdf
https://www.extension.umn.edu/agricu...nagement-plan/

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Posted in reply to the post by Sam:

:hmmm: ...people who apparently really love the smell of poop!

...put on your big kid pants and attain some composure.

...aggressive people on drugs or something.

...just makes you a really awful neighbor.

Educate yourself on emotional intelligence and learn to communicate as respectable/respected adults.

Followed by:

No more petulant name-calling and belittlement. Let's see more of the good neighbors here.

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Is it just me or is the irony getting a little thick here?

Patrick Brinton

You know, I have spent several years of my life confined to a bed, hooked up to wires and dependent upon others for cleaning and feeding me. I have experienced serious illness. All under the age of 30. I came to Sonoma County to try to heal and find kind loving people. My Great Aunt lived here because her great grandfather lived here long ago. My Aunt raised her children in Sebastopol. My mother came here for Summers and my family established real roots here. I was scared for my life, and did not know how much longer I had. So, I came to Sonoma, where my heart has always been. ...Somewhere, I felt, I knew, I hoped, that this place could make me better. The move here took several months of health away from me. But I just knew it would be worth it. I need to connect with my family, my home, here in Sonoma County.

To think that a friend suggest I try WaccoBB to find some answers to something that is really worrisome and scary for me. You know, I have posted before, and every. single. time. I have had to deal with people being hurtful and hostile, judgmental and pushy. ...Why?? Now this. I never said anything disrespectful toward farmers or the land or anything like that. I honestly thought I would maybe receive warm helpful suggestions. Instead, I am told to leave. I am told that I am the pushy one. I see people nit-picking words, twisting good intentions, and ganging up on those who defend kindness. And it is all done with such conviction. ...Why did I move here? I have realized now, that I made a mistake.

I don't belong among this hostile place. Goodbye to you all. Thank you Barry for being so kind to me. You have no idea what that has meant.

This is a very small community, and I am telling you, there is no room here for newcomers, not even those who are loving and friendly. Heartbreaking on unimaginable levels. In the biggest of ways... Goodbye.

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Posted in reply to the post by Sonoma:

.... I came to Sonoma County to try to heal and find kind loving people. ...
.... Instead, I am told to leave. I am told that I am the pushy one....
This is a very small community, and I am telling you, there is no room here for newcomers, not even those who are loving and friendly. Heartbreaking on unimaginable levels. In the biggest of ways... Goodbye.

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I'm sorry for the extra challenges you have to meet. In many ways, you did pick a place where you might find a kind and helpful community. I think your friend who suggested a public BBS with frequent political discussions did you a disservice, though. Even within Wacco, I'm sure you can find areas that are dedicated to mutual support. You unfortunately strayed into an area of discussion where warmth and gentleness are unlikely - people debating public issues are quite likely to challenge those on another side.

Small communities like this can take time to navigate, but I bet your instincts were correct. There are many people here who seem to share your goals of living in a warm and supportive environment. I hope you find the parts of this community that give you the support you sought when you came here. You may not belong in this somewhat quarrelsome subgroup, but there's a lot more to the west county than us!

It's not 'just' you; yes, I also think the "irony" is getting a little 'thick'

And without getting too deep into the 'Frey" :poo:(pun intended) here, seems that there is from differing opinions a smidgen of a 'tit for tat' bit of quibbling, (unfortunately).

The reasonable questions asked in the beginning have been for the most part unanswered (other than tough it out or move somewhere else, etc.), instead mostly critique of the statements (which is OK {legitimate} and informative to a point but...).

...I have more to say which may or may not be posted , however, if I do post it, it will be later.

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Posted in reply to the post by pbrinton:

Is it just me or is the irony getting a little thick here?

Patrick Brinton

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I am sorry to see this thread devolve so much. :tear:

This has been an interesting discussion, but it cut too close to the bone of some sacred cows (pun intended) around here which raised some defensiveness and fears which then festered. I tried to damp it down, but apparently not enough, especially allowing a new member more leeway than I should have.

Please accept my apologies on behalf of our community, Pat (Sonoma). I hope you'll stick around and give us another try.

Let's be kind and respectful, folks.

Please let the current fuss drop and return to the subject if you have anything constructive to add.

Sonoma,i too have chronic health problems with multiple chemical sensitivities being one of my symptoms. I do understand what you are trying to communicate. Some with good health have trouble being empathetic to symptoms they never experienced and don't understand. Sharing in a public forum is brave but often yields both positive and negative responses.

If you share your concerns on a support group where others understand what you are going thru, chances are you will receive positive helpful responses. That is what I do.

Hello all posters and postnasal drippers ,I really am kind of disgusted in the amount of air
that has been wasted with sniveling about cow manure stank ,have oyu not better things to
be concerned with? Our all knowing eldersparkles person gerald brown of sac town has
already put a new law on the books that could ,restrict farmers ,put others out of business
and the nature of (ordinance) cow methane reduction and converters takes huge monetary
investment to implement . Only big farms could afford, and so methane control equals less
jobs ,higher milk cost ..remember in california milk is a big money maker second only to
grapes and marajauna ,in my opinion are same greed propelled ,polluting mono crops.
the whole point is to effectively reduce smell ,have ratios of cows to acre,and as many
allready know 95% or more dairies are organic ,this certification requires specific strict
policys on cow handling ,antibiotics, steroids ,other drugs, and MANURE PRACTICES .
so if you wish to live in a sanitary environment ,may I suggest MARS, flights leaving soon.
thank you and good night.

Problem solved????

Though I'm not sure how humane it is living your entire life with something crammed up your can

On a more serious side it sounds like the bill in question could solve the stink problem to a large extent. It is my hope that the state will largely fund the installation of these methane units. I'm not talking about the fart catching unit in the picture but the methane digesters that the dairies will need to install. They cost about a million and a half per. I believe the stuff that comes out of them doesn't stink that much and still makes good fertilizer.

https://www.zerohedge.com/sites/defa...BackPack_1.jpg

I am so so sorry that you have had to suffer as you have! Wow, you seem to be very wise beyond your years, and now we see why. I want to apologize for any bit of negativity and unsupportive behavior that you have encountered. You are a young person, coming here for help. This community as a whole is very wonderful and kind. I am so sorry that you have not had the opportunity to see that. Please know that most of us are loving and would never want to hurt you or anyone else. We embrace you and support you! You deserve that.

Again, I am sorry for the way that you have been (so unfairly and unjustly) treated. I promise, most of us are respectful and well-mannered. Sonoma County is known for its heart and soul! Please feel free to send me a private email if I can help you in any way. I mean that.

Blessings, Sam

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Posted in reply to the post by Sonoma:

You know, I have spent several years of my life confined to a bed, hooked up to wires and dependent upon others for cleaning and feeding me. I have experienced serious illness. All under the age of 30. I came to Sonoma County to try to heal and find kind loving people. ...

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Posted in reply to the post by hanford:

...Our all knowing eldersparkles person gerald brown of sac town has
already put a new law on the books that could ,restrict farmers ,put others out of business
and the nature of (ordinance) cow methane reduction ...

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Indeed Gov Moonbeam has! It's not directly related to the offensive odor under discussion, but still an interesting and related sidelight:

https://www.waccobb.net/forums/wacco...2_10-41-34.png
California governor backs rules on cow, landfill emissions

By Jonathan J. Cooper | AP September 19
SACRAMENTO, Calif. — California will begin regulating greenhouse-gas emissions tied to dairy cows and landfills under legislation signed Monday by Gov. Jerry Brown, escalating state efforts to fight climate change beyond carbon-based gases to include methane and other pollutants.

The law targets a category of gases known as short-lived climate pollutants, which have an outsize effect on global warming despite their relatively short life in the atmosphere. Environmentalists hope that tackling short-lived pollutants now would buy time to develop new and more affordable technology to reduce carbon emissions.

California has stoked a global reputation for its attempts to slow climate change through a combination of strict mandates against pollution and financial incentives for green technology.

The new law requires steep reductions in a variety of pollutants, including methane; HFC gases used in aerosols and air conditioning refrigerants; and soot, known as black carbon. It’s tied to $90 million in funding for the dairy industry and garbage collectors.

“This bill curbs these dangerous pollutants and thereby protects public health and slows climate change,” the Democratic governor said in a statement.

Republicans said the strict regulations will hurt agricultural businesses, despite concessions made to dairy farmers.

Dairy farmers will be required to reduce methane emissions from manure to 40 percent below their 2013 levels by 2030, with the help of $50 million from the state’s fee charged to polluters, known as cap-and-trade.

The money will help a handful of them buy dairy digesters, which use methane from manure to generate energy that’s sold to electrical utilities.

The law also allows the Air Resources Board to regulate cow flatulence if there’s viable technology to reduce it.

Continues here