Homosexuality and the Bible

[dw41552]

MsTerry

You are wrong. You did not ask who do I know in Heaven, which I'm assuming you mean who do I personally know like frisnds or family. That was not what you asked. Below is what you asked word for word.

Can you give us a list of people that you know for sure are in Heaven?
I don't want to mix with the wrong crowd.<!-- / message --><!-- Waccco: reduce Top Margin <div style="margin-top: 10px" align="right"> -->

I gave you names of at least four people I know for sure are in Heaven. I don't know them personally or have never met them, but I know they're in Heaven, so nothing I can say is going to make any sense to you because you refuse to believe and continue to reject Jesus Christ. Yes, even though I don't hear Jesus audibly I have a great relationship with Him. You hear but you do not listen. All communication does not always come from the mouth, even with people you can see. You put limits on God's powers, I do not. He has the power to comminicate his will for you without you ever hearing a word. But unless you believe you will never recieve them.

Oh, and by the way, Jesus was also a flesh and blood human just like you and I.

Good bye and God bless






Butch,
The Question is who do you know in Heaven?
Your answer;Jesus
But according to your religion he is part of the holy trinity, so he doesn't count as a person.
Can I talk to him?
You said yes, get down on your knee etc.
Now you are telling us, Jesus does talk to you.
Who is confused now?

[Valley Oak]

You've missed my point.

The bible has no credibility and neither do you. You are simply a religious fanatic and little more. You are essentially a dangerous man because you and people like you seek to, with great success, to force others to live according to your foolish beliefs, such as Prop. 8.

You don't have a right to discriminate against other human beings and your religious faith doesn't give you the right to do so. You believe that you do, and quite strongly, but you don't. That's the rub.

If you want to waste your life living it according to some absurd religious faith, be my guest. But don't force me to live according to those troglodite attitudes. You've started a fight you shouldn't have started and you are extremely rude and extremely arrogant. And you are going to lose, as you should.

You religious fanatics are not getting away with amending the California State Constitution with that filthy, immoral, bigoted law prohibiting a huge number of good people simply because of their sexual orientation.

Mind your own goddam business and leave other people alone! Stop trying to tell people how to live their personal lives and using the law to do it. Keep neanderthal religion out of government. Separation of church state.

Everyone has an equal right to marry, including religious bigots like you.

Edward



Hey Valley Oak

I only cut and run from that who seeks to destoy my soul, satan.

I watched the first video and only a part of the second, because of course I do not agree. I also could send you to hundreds of videos promoting my beliefs, but I would rather share with you what comes from my heart. I do not live by words of man, but by the word of God. If you want to believe the words of athiests that is certainly your choice to make, not mine. But I would be careful who you believe, because there are many people who would lead you to the desruction of your soul, and I believe these people in the videos are some of them. These people are famous and heavily involved in the media. The Media is one of satan's most powerful tools he uses to try an trip people up. Obviously it's working, you seem to believe them.

Matthew 7:15 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=7&verse=15&version=50&context=verse)
[ You Will Know Them by Their Fruits ] “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves.
Matthew 7:14-16 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=7&verse=14&end_verse=16&version=50&context=context) (in Context) Matthew 7 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=7&version=50&context=chapter) (Whole Chapter)
Matthew 24:11 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=24&verse=11&version=50&context=verse)
Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many.
Matthew 24:10-12 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=24&verse=10&end_verse=12&version=50&context=context) (in Context) Matthew 24 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=24&version=50&context=chapter) (Whole Chapter)
2 Peter 2:1 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=68&chapter=2&verse=1&version=50&context=verse)
[ Destructive Doctrines ] But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction.
2 Peter 2:1-3 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=68&chapter=2&verse=1&end_verse=3&version=50&context=context) (in Context) 2 Peter 2 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=68&chapter=2&version=50&context=chapter) (Whole Chapter)
1 John 4:1 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=69&chapter=4&verse=1&version=50&context=verse)
Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
1 John 4:1-3 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=69&chapter=4&verse=1&end_verse=3&version=50&context=context) (in Context) 1 John 4 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=69&chapter=4&version=50&context=chapter) (Whole Chapter)

Look, if there's nothing to what I've been saying then why has Christianity continued to grow for over 2000 years now. Why are so many peoples lives changed for the better when they take that all important step of faith.
I would challenge any athiest to give me an example of one good thing athieism has done for them. The sad thing about an athiest is they have no hope. According to them they live, they die, they cease to exist. How sad. I could not imagine going through life hopeless. And why is it so important for people like those in the video to try and crush peoples hope. What good can possibly come of it. So more people can come to live the hopeless lives that they live, (misery loves company). Or have they made a deal with the devil.

There's only two ways to live life, and nothing in between. We either live God's way, or we live satan's way.

If I step out in faith and nothing I've said is true I lose nothing.
If I don't step out in faith and everything I've said is true, I lose my soul.

I personally am not willing to risk my soul as well as those around me, over two videos made by the lost, are you?



God bless

[MsTerry]

Butch,

Edward is a homicidal homosexual.
He will burn children, women and elderly alike with no regards for Life
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt2 style="BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset">Valley Oak wrote: https://www.waccobb.net/forums/waccobb/orangebuttons/viewpost.gif (https://www.waccobb.net/forums/showthread.php?p=77816#post77816)
Sometimes I'd like to see their churches burn with all of their pro Prop. 8 fanatics in them.

Edward



</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
It is no accident that he choose this tittle;
Homosexuals should be killed?

[MsTerry]

I think this is considered heresy to say that the Son of God was a mere mortal



Oh, and by the way, Jesus was also a flesh and blood human just like you and I.



Butch,
Yes, I did ask you about people you knew personally, otherwise what is the point?
I can claim any historic person to be in heaven, that is no proof.
Now if you are not able to give me any name of any person that you know that is in heaven, that I must assume we are all going to hell. Even the people that you know of that are in good standing with your church and do what they are supposed to.
So what is the point of living the life you preach if there is only room for 4 people in heaven and the rest of us ends up meeting in hell.



MsTerry

You are wrong. You did not ask who do I know in Heaven, which I'm assuming you mean who do I personally know like frisnds or family. That was not what you asked. Below is what you asked word for word.

Can you give us a list of people that you know for sure are in Heaven?
I don't want to mix with the wrong crowd.<!-- / message --><!-- Waccco: reduce Top Margin <div style="margin-top: 10px" align="right"> -->

I gave you names of at least four people I know for sure are in Heaven. I don't know them personally or have never met them, but I know they're in Heaven, so nothing I can say is going to make any sense to you because you refuse to believe and continue to reject Jesus Christ. Yes, even though I don't hear Jesus audibly I have a great relationship with Him. You hear but you do not listen. All communication does not always come from the mouth, even with people you can see. You put limits on God's powers, I do not. He has the power to comminicate his will for you without you ever hearing a word. But unless you believe you will never recieve them.


Good bye and God bless

[Zeno Swijtink]

You religious fanatics are not getting away with amending the California State Constitution with that filthy, immoral, bigoted law prohibiting a huge number of good people simply because of their sexual orientation.

Mind your own goddam business and leave other people alone! Stop trying to tell people how to live their personal lives and using the law to do it. Keep neanderthal religion out of government. Separation of church state.

Everyone has an equal right to marry, including religious bigots like you.

Edward

Edward, Edward! You have been back on this board for less than a week and I already see again foam on your lips!! It makes me worried.

[Valley Oak]

I appreciate your concern, Zeno. I will get rabies shots first thing tomorrow morning!

Edward


Edward, Edward! You have been back on this board for less than a week and I already see again foam on your lips!! It makes me worried.

[Barry]

Edward, Edward! You have been back on this board for less than a week and I already see again foam on your lips!! It makes me worried.

Me too, Edward. You have got to reign it in.

I am beginning to think you don't have enough self control to participate in public discussions regarding homosexuality or religion.

[dw41552]

MsTerry

We can no longer continue this as long as you keep putting words in my mouth that I never said to try and make your own point.


Example #1
Can you give us a list of people that you know for sure are in Heaven?

Which I did. You did not ask for a list of people I personally know that are in Heaven.

When Moses and Alijah appeared to Jesus and His appostles, where could they have possibly come from except Heaven.

God taking Enoch to be with Him, and God being in Heaven, convinces me Enoch is in heaven.

Example #2
I think this is considered heresy to say that the son of God was a mere mortal.

MsTerry, I did not say Jesus was mortal, I simply said He was flesh and blood just like you and I. Even though our bodies are mortal, our souls are immortal.

It is by the grace of God and our faith that gets us to Heaven. I believe that everyone I know that lives by that same faith and does their best to live according to God's will, will indeed make it to Heaven. As for the others, sorry but I believe they will not. It is the bible which is the word of God that said it. I do not make up the rules, I just try my best to follow them.

If I Step out in faith and nothing the bible says is true I lose some pride and credibility, which won't matter If I'm dead.
If I don't step out in faith and everything the bible says is true I lose my soul.



I think this is considered heresy to say that the Son of God was a mere mortal.



Butch,
Yes, I did ask you about people you knew personally, otherwise what is the point?
I can claim any historic person to be in heaven, that is no proof.
Now if you are not able to give me any name of any person that you know that is in heaven, that I must assume we are all going to hell. Even the people that you know of that are in good standing with your church and do what they are supposed to.
So what is the point of living the life you preach if there is only room for 4 people in heaven and the rest of us ends up meeting in hell.

[Zeno Swijtink]

When Moses and Alijah appeared to Jesus and His appostles, where could they have possibly come from except Heaven.

Davaughn,

John 3:13 says: "No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven."

So Moses and Elijah did not come from heaven at that point.

In fact when Christ returns he will judge the living and the dead resulting in either entrance into heaven or damnation.

So in fact right now there are no merely humans in heaven. Only [The Father, The Son, The Holy Ghosts], and the Angels.

[dw41552]

Wow!

A lot of anger in them thar words. I didn't realize I was twisting your arm too, to try and force you into my way of thinking. I just put it out there for people to think about, just like you do, but it's their choice whether to except it or not. I wish you would show me where in my posts I have forced anything on any one, where I've been rude, and where I've been arrogant.

My advice to you sir is if you don't want to here all possible answers to your questions, then don't ask.

And I might ask why is it OK for you to post your thoughts here but it is not OK for me to do so. Pretty one sided don't you think. I'm sure that if the moderator thought I was being rude, I would not be allowed to post here.

PS You might want to save all that anger for someone who is actually trying to hurt you.

God Bless



You've missed my point.

The bible has no credibility and neither do you. You are simply a religious fanatic and little more. You are essentially a dangerous man because you and people like you seek to, with great success, to force others to live according to your foolish beliefs, such as Prop. 8.

You don't have a right to discriminate against other human beings and your religious faith doesn't give you the right to do so. You believe that you do, and quite strongly, but you don't. That's the rub.

If you want to waste your life living it according to some absurd religious faith, be my guest. But don't force me to live according to those troglodite attitudes. You've started a fight you shouldn't have started and you are extremely rude and extremely arrogant. And you are going to lose, as you should.

You religious fanatics are not getting away with amending the California State Constitution with that filthy, immoral, bigoted law prohibiting a huge number of good people simply because of their sexual orientation.

Mind your own goddam business and leave other people alone! Stop trying to tell people how to live their personal lives and using the law to do it. Keep neanderthal religion out of government. Separation of church state.

Everyone has an equal right to marry, including religious bigots like you.

Edward

[Valley Oak]

I never asked you any questions in the first place, if I'm remembering correctly and I think I do. You might be referring to questions OTHERS have asked you here on this particular thread but I'm not among them. So let's be clear on that for starters.

Yep! There is a lot of anger in my words, and probably a whole lot more you haven't seen yet. What you can't see is WHY that anger is there in the first place because your religiosity blinds you. If you can understand that without a bunch of biblical citations or religious interpretations then you will have earned some credibility with me.

As far as forcing oneself on another, I don't know what role, if any, you have had in Prop. 8. To the best of my shaky knowledge, you live in Oregon. Am I right? So unless you've sent any money over to the Prop. 8 side, my criticism is that your ultra-religious attitude is identical to those who put that reprehensible measure on the California ballot in the first place and then voted for it.

Edward



Wow!

A lot of anger in them thar words. I didn't realize I was twisting your arm too, to try and force you into my way of thinking. I just put it out there for people to think about, just like you do, but it's their choice whether to except it or not. I wish you would show me where in my posts I have forced anything on any one, where I've been rude, and where I've been arrrogant.

My advice to you sir is if you don't want to here all possible answers to your questions, then don't ask.

And I might ask why is it OK for you to post your thoughts here but it is not OK for me to do so. Pretty one sided don't you think. I'm sure that if the moderator thought I was being rude, I would not be allowed to post here.

PS You might want to save all that anger for someone who is actually trying to hurt you.

God Bless





Quote=Valley Oak;77844]You've missed my point.

The bible has no credibility and neither do you. You are simply a religious fanatic and little more. You are essentially a dangerous man because you and people like you seek to, with great success, to force others to live according to your foolish beliefs, such as Prop. 8.

You don't have a right to discriminate against other human beings and your religious faith doesn't give you the right to do so. You believe that you do, and quite strongly, but you don't. That's the rub.

If you want to waste your life living it according to some absurd religious faith, be my guest. But don't force me to live according to those troglodite attitudes. You've started a fight you shouldn't have started and you are extremely rude and extremely arrogant. And you are going to lose, as you should.

You religious fanatics are not getting away with amending the California State Constitution with that filthy, immoral, bigoted law prohibiting a huge number of good people simply because of their sexual orientation.

Mind your own goddam business and leave other people alone! Stop trying to tell people how to live their personal lives and using the law to do it. Keep neanderthal religion out of government. Separation of church state.

Everyone has an equal right to marry, including religious bigots like you.

Edward[/QUOTE]

[dw41552]

Hey Zeno

Great point. I hadn't come across that verse until now.

However I still know that there are people in heaven and here's why:

Luke 23: 39-43
39 One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him: "Aren't you the Christ? Save yourself and us!"
40 But the other criminal rebuked him. "Don't you fear God," he said, "since you are under the same sentence?
41 We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong."
42 Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom."
43 Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."

Revelation 4:4 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=73&chapter=4&verse=4&version=50&context=verse)
Around the throne were twenty-four thrones, and on the thrones I saw twenty-four elders sitting, clothed in white robes; and they had crowns of gold on their heads. The 24 elders are mentioned 5 times in the Book of Revelation. Who are they?

Genesis 5:24 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=1&chapter=5&verse=24&version=50&context=verse)
And Enoch walked with God; and he was not, for God took him.
Where did God take Him to? If God is in Heaven as it states many times in the bile, and if God took him, he would have to be in Heaven.


Is there some secret place everyone goes to to wait things out till they are allowed in Heaven or sent to hell. I don't believe so. There is no mention anywhere in the bible of such a place.

John 3:13says "No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven."

I believe He was talking about His physical ascention which was yet to come. It's another miracle just like all the others which were performed by Jesus so that those at that time would believe. Notice verses 12 and 14.

John 3:12-14 (New King James Version)
12 If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things?
13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up,

Acts 1:9 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=51&chapter=1&verse=9&version=50&context=verse)
[ Jesus Ascends to Heaven ] Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight.


So you see verse 13 does not mean there are no people in Heaven. I believe Jesus is saying He is the only one to ever come down from Heaven live among us as a man and then ascend back up to Heaven for many to see.
In other words: This is a one shot deal never done before and never to be done again so pay attention and take notes. :):

God Bless









Davaughn,

John 3:13 says: "No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven."

So Moses and Elijah did not come from heaven at that point.

In fact when Christ returns he will judge the living and the dead resulting in either entrance into heaven or damnation.

So in fact right now there are no merely humans in heaven. Only [The Father, The Son, The Holy Ghosts], and the Angels.

[dw41552]

MsTerry

Thanks for the warning. See you may not agree with me but you like me.Big Smile






Butch,

Edward is a homicidal homosexual.
He will burn children, women and elderly alike with no regards for Life
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=alt2 style="BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset">Valley Oak wrote: https://www.waccobb.net/forums/waccobb/orangebuttons/viewpost.gif (https://www.waccobb.net/forums/showthread.php?p=77816#post77816)
Sometimes I'd like to see their churches burn with all of their pro Prop. 8 fanatics in them.

Edward




</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
It is no accident that he choose this tittle;
Homosexuals should be killed?

[MsTerry]

Dear Butch,

I was not trying to put words in your mouth, I was merely rephrasing my question.
As far as I am concerned, If it isn't your personal experience or knowledge or you can't verify "it", it becomes a belief-system rather than a fact.
It might be your reality, but it is not a fact.
I am under the assumption that you consider heaven to be a physical place, as opposed to a meta-physical place, a place that you can actually go to.
Since we both now we don't take our body there, what does a soul look like?
What is it made out of?




MsTerry

We can no longer continue this as long as you keep putting words in my mouth that I never said to try and make your own point.


Example #1
Can you give us a list of people that you know for sure are in Heaven?

Which I did. You did not ask for a list of people I personally know that are in Heaven.

When Moses and Alijah appeared to Jesus and His appostles, where could they have possibly come from except Heaven.

God taking Enoch to be with Him, and God being in Heaven, convinces me Enoch is in heaven.

Example #2
I think this is considered heresy to say that the son of God was a mere mortal.

MsTerry, I did not say Jesus was mortal, I simply said He was flesh and blood just like you and I. Even though our bodies are mortal, our souls are immortal.

It is by the grace of God and our faith that gets us to Heaven. I believe that everyone I know that lives by that same faith and does their best to live according to God's will, will indeed make it to Heaven. As for the others, sorry but I believe they will not. It is the bible which is the word of God that said it. I do not make up the rules, I just try my best to follow them.

If I Step out in faith and nothing the bible says is true I lose some pride and credibility, which won't matter If I'm dead.
If I don't step out in faith and everything the bible says is true I lose my soul.

[Zeno Swijtink]

Is there some secret place everyone goes to to wait things out till they are allowed in Heaven or sent to hell. I don't believe so. There is no mention anywhere in the bible of such a place.

This place is called Limbo. There must be such a place, since otherwise how can it be true that, when Christ returns, he will judge the living and the dead resulting in either entrance into heaven or damnation?

[dw41552]

Zeno

You could be right. I think this is one of the many mysteries of the bible. I certainly do not understand every single verse, no one does. Probably God's way of keeping our curiosity aroused.

Zeno you have a Merry Christmas




This place is called Limbo. There must be such a place, since otherwise how can it be true that, when Christ returns, he will judge the living and the dead resulting in either entrance into heaven or damnation?

[dw41552]

MsTerry

Rephrasing your question was not fair. :): It threw me a little because I wasn't understanding what information you were looking for.

I look at the Bible as fact. And yes I have never been to heaven, but I know it's real because the bible says so. I know there are people there because the bible says so. As far as Heaven being a physical place, or whether we have actul physical bodies, that I'm not sure of.

Have a Merry Christmas



Dear Butch,

I was not trying to put words in your mouth, I was merely rephrasing my question.
As far as I am concerned, If it isn't your personal experience or knowledge or you can't verify "it", it becomes a belief-system rather than a fact.
It might be your reality, but it is not a fact.
I am under the assumption that you consider heaven to be a physical place, as opposed to a meta-physical place, a place that you can actually go to.
Since we both now we don't take our body there, what does a soul look like?
What is it made out of?

[phooph]

Sorry Jeff, their is only one God. Think about it. What would be the use of several gods or godesses, when one God can do it all. A lot simlper for us to follow and understand. The one and only true God is not the author of confusion.(Biblical quotes removed)
It's Ok to live fully in the present as long as how we're living it is according to God's will. Just because I became a Christian doesn't mean I don't or cannot enjoy life. Quite the contrary.I enjoy life much more as a Christian than I did before especially knowing where the end of my physical life will take me.
And this world is not God's kingdom, it belongs to satan. Were this God's kingdom it would be a perfect paradise. His kingdom is yet to come.

God Bless



I realize this thread has moved on but as a stickler for facts I feel compelled to bring some accuracy to this topic. The Bible does mention other gods which are treated as if they exist in some reality.
<dl><dt>Genesis 1:26 (https://skepticsannotatedbible.com/gen/1.html#26) </dt><dd>And God said, let us make man in our image. </dd><dt>Genesis 3:22 (https://skepticsannotatedbible.com/gen/3.html#22) </dt><dd>And the Lord God said, Behold, then man is become as one of us, to know good and evil. </dd><dt>Genesis 11:7 (https://skepticsannotatedbible.com/gen/11.html#7) </dt><dd>Let us go down, and there confound their language. </dd><dt>Exodus 12:12 (https://skepticsannotatedbible.com/ex/12.html#12) </dt><dd>And against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgment. </dd><dt>Exodus 15:11 (https://skepticsannotatedbible.com/ex/15.html#11) </dt><dd>Who is like unto thee, O LORD, among the gods? </dd><dt>Exodus 18:11 (https://skepticsannotatedbible.com/ex/18.html#11) </dt><dd>Now I know that the LORD is greater than all gods. </dd><dt>Exodus 20:3, 5 (https://skepticsannotatedbible.com/ex/20.html#3) </dt><dd>Thou shalt have no other gods before me. ... Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them. </dd><dt>Exodus 22:20 (https://skepticsannotatedbible.com/ex/22.html#20) </dt><dd>He that sacrificeth unto any god, save unto the LORD only, he shall be utterly destroyed. </dd><dt>Exodus 22:28 (https://skepticsannotatedbible.com/ex/22.html#28) </dt><dd>Thou shalt not revile the gods. </dd><dt>Exodus 23:13 (https://skepticsannotatedbible.com/ex/23.html#13) </dt><dd>Make no mention of the name of other gods, neither let it be heard out of thy mouth. </dd><dt>Exodus 23:24 (https://skepticsannotatedbible.com/ex/23.html#24) </dt><dd>Thou shalt not bow down to their gods, nor serve them, nor do after their works: but thou shalt utterly overthrow them, and quite break down their images. </dd><dt>Exodus 23:32 (https://skepticsannotatedbible.com/ex/23.html#32) </dt><dd>Thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor with their gods. </dd><dt>Exodus 34:14 (https://skepticsannotatedbible.com/ex/34.html#14) </dt><dd>For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God. </dd><dt>Numbers 33:4 (https://skepticsannotatedbible.com/num/33.html#4)</dt><dd>Upon their gods also theLORD executed judgments. </dd><dt>Deuteronomy 6:14-15 (https://skepticsannotatedbible.com/dt/6.html#14) </dt><dd>Ye shall not go after other gods, of the gods of the people which are round about you;(For the LORD thy God is a jealous God among you) </dd><dt>Deuteronomy 10:17 (https://skepticsannotatedbible.com/dt/10.html#17) </dt><dd>For the LORD your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords. </dd><dt>Deuteronomy 28:14 (https://skepticsannotatedbible.com/dt/28.html#14) </dt><dd>Thou shalt not ... go after other gods to serve them. </dd><dt>Joshua 24:2 (https://skepticsannotatedbible.com/jos/24.html#2) </dt><dd>They served other gods. </dd><dt>Joshua 24:14 (https://skepticsannotatedbible.com/jos/24.html#14) </dt><dd>Fear the Lord ... and put away the gods which your fathers served. </dd><dt>Judges 11:24 (https://skepticsannotatedbible.com/jg/11.html#24) </dt><dd>Wilt not thou possess that which Chemosh thy god giveth thee to possess? </dd><dt>1 Samuel 6:5 (https://skepticsannotatedbible.com/1sam/6.html#5) </dt><dd>Ye shall give glory unto the God of Israel: peradventure he will lighten his hand from off you, and from off your gods. </dd><dt>1 Samuel 28:13 (https://skepticsannotatedbible.com/1sam/28.html#13) </dt><dd>And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth. </dd><dt>1 Chronicles 16:25 (https://skepticsannotatedbible.com/1chr/16.html#25) </dt><dd>The Lord ... is to be feared above all gods. </dd><dt>Psalm 82:1 (https://skepticsannotatedbible.com/ps/82.html#1) </dt><dd>God standeth in the congregation of the mighty, he judgeth among the gods. </dd><dt>Psalm 82:6 (https://skepticsannotatedbible.com/ps/82.html#6) </dt><dd>I have said, Ye are gods. </dd><dt>Psalm 86:8 (https://skepticsannotatedbible.com/ps/86.html#8) </dt><dd>Among the gods there is none like unto thee, O Lord. </dd><dt>Psalm 96:4 (https://skepticsannotatedbible.com/ps/96.html#4) </dt><dd>For the Lord ... is to be feared above all gods. </dd><dt>Psalm 97:7 (https://skepticsannotatedbible.com/ps/97.html#7) </dt><dd>Worship him, all ye gods. </dd><dt>Psalm 135:5 (https://skepticsannotatedbible.com/ps/135.html#5) </dt><dd>Our Lord is above all gods. </dd><dt>Psalm 136:2 (https://skepticsannotatedbible.com/ps/136.html#2) </dt><dd>O give thanks unto the God of gods. </dd><dt>Jeremiah 1:16 (https://skepticsannotatedbible.com/jer/1.html#16) </dt><dd>I will utter my judgments against them ... who have forsaken me, and have burned incense unto other gods. </dd><dt>Jeremiah 10:11 (https://skepticsannotatedbible.com/jer/10.html#11) </dt><dd>The gods that have not made the heavens and the earth, even they shall perish from the earth, and from under these heavens. </dd><dt>Jeremiah 25:6 (https://skepticsannotatedbible.com/jer/25.html#6) </dt><dd>And go not after other gods to serve them, and to worship them, and provoke me not to anger with the works of your hands; and I will do you no hurt. </dd><dt>Jeremiah 46:25 (https://skepticsannotatedbible.com/jer/46.html#25) </dt><dd>I will punish the multitude of No, and Pharaoh, and Egypt, with their gods. </dd><dt>Zephaniah 2:11 (https://skepticsannotatedbible.com/zeph/2.html#11) </dt><dd>The Lord will be terrible to them: for he will famish all the gods of the earth. </dd><dt>John 10:33-34 (https://skepticsannotatedbible.com/jn/10.html#33) </dt><dd>The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? </dd><dt>1 John 5:7 (https://skepticsannotatedbible.com/1jn/5.html#7) </dt><dd>For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.</dd></dl>

[Zeno Swijtink]

Zeno

You could be right. I think this is one of the many mysteries of the bible. I certainly do not understand every single verse, no one does. Probably God's way of keeping our curiosity aroused.

Zeno you have a Merry Christmas

Consider the alternative hypothesis that the Bible as we know it is the work of men.

Have you read about the history of this collection of books, how it came to be, what was excluded by what group of elders, the languages and translations involved, the politicking, its relation to other ancient texts, such as the Gilgamesh Epos, and the Koran, how the first five books of the OT are composed of four separate and identifiable texts? Fascinating history!

At some point you may want to study broader. Using a computer text search on certain key words you see as central only gets you so far.

I can recommend books by archaeologists Finkelstein and Silberman such as "David and Solomon: In Search of the Bible's Sacred Kings and the Roots of the Western Tradition" and "The Bible Unearthed: Archaeology's New Vision of Ancient Israel and the Origin of Its Sacred Texts."

They confront the question that any thoughtful student will ask at some point: If the Bible is not a history book what role did and can it play, and what is its value.

Have a studious Christmas.

[Barry]

Edward/Valley Oak has decided to take a break from WaccoBB.net.

[dw41552]

The bible mentions many gods yes, but there is only one true God, all the rest are false gods. And as the True God has made very clear we are to worship Him and Him only.

Jeremiah 10:10 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=30&chapter=10&verse=10&version=9&context=verse)
But the LORD is the true God, he is the living God, and an everlasting king: at his wrath the earth shall tremble, and the nations shall not be able to abide his indignation.

John 17:3 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=17&verse=3&version=9&context=verse)
And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
John 17:2-4 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=17&verse=2&end_verse=4&version=9&context=context) (in Context) John 17 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=17&version=9&context=chapter) (Whole Chapter)

1 Thessalonians 1:9 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=59&chapter=1&verse=9&version=9&context=verse)
For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God;

1 John 5:20 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=69&chapter=5&verse=20&version=9&context=verse)
And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

God Bless







I realize this thread has moved on but as a stickler for facts I feel compelled to bring some accuracy to this topic. The Bible does mention other gods which are treated as if they exist in some reality.

<DL><DT>Genesis 1:26 (https://skepticsannotatedbible.com/gen/1.html#26) <DD>And God said, let us make man in our image. <DT>Genesis 3:22 (https://skepticsannotatedbible.com/gen/3.html#22) <DD>And the Lord God said, Behold, then man is become as one of us, to know good and evil. <DT>Genesis 11:7 (https://skepticsannotatedbible.com/gen/11.html#7) <DD>Let us go down, and there confound their language. <DT>Exodus 12:12 (https://skepticsannotatedbible.com/ex/12.html#12) <DD>And against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgment. <DT>Exodus 15:11 (https://skepticsannotatedbible.com/ex/15.html#11) <DD>Who is like unto thee, O LORD, among the gods? <DT>Exodus 18:11 (https://skepticsannotatedbible.com/ex/18.html#11) <DD>Now I know that the LORD is greater than all gods. <DT>Exodus 20:3, 5 (https://skepticsannotatedbible.com/ex/20.html#3) <DD>Thou shalt have no other gods before me. ... Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them. <DT>Exodus 22:20 (https://skepticsannotatedbible.com/ex/22.html#20) <DD>He that sacrificeth unto any god, save unto the LORD only, he shall be utterly destroyed. <DT>Exodus 22:28 (https://skepticsannotatedbible.com/ex/22.html#28) <DD>Thou shalt not revile the gods. <DT>Exodus 23:13 (https://skepticsannotatedbible.com/ex/23.html#13) <DD>Make no mention of the name of other gods, neither let it be heard out of thy mouth. <DT>Exodus 23:24 (https://skepticsannotatedbible.com/ex/23.html#24) <DD>Thou shalt not bow down to their gods, nor serve them, nor do after their works: but thou shalt utterly overthrow them, and quite break down their images. <DT>Exodus 23:32 (https://skepticsannotatedbible.com/ex/23.html#32) <DD>Thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor with their gods. <DT>Exodus 34:14 (https://skepticsannotatedbible.com/ex/34.html#14) <DD>For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God. <DT>Numbers 33:4 (https://skepticsannotatedbible.com/num/33.html#4)<DD>Upon their gods also theLORD executed judgments. <DT>Deuteronomy 6:14-15 (https://skepticsannotatedbible.com/dt/6.html#14) <DD>Ye shall not go after other gods, of the gods of the people which are round about you;(For the LORD thy God is a jealous God among you) <DT>Deuteronomy 10:17 (https://skepticsannotatedbible.com/dt/10.html#17) <DD>For the LORD your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords. <DT>Deuteronomy 28:14 (https://skepticsannotatedbible.com/dt/28.html#14) <DD>Thou shalt not ... go after other gods to serve them. <DT>Joshua 24:2 (https://skepticsannotatedbible.com/jos/24.html#2) <DD>They served other gods. <DT>Joshua 24:14 (https://skepticsannotatedbible.com/jos/24.html#14) <DD>Fear the Lord ... and put away the gods which your fathers served. <DT>Judges 11:24 (https://skepticsannotatedbible.com/jg/11.html#24) <DD>Wilt not thou possess that which Chemosh thy god giveth thee to possess? <DT>1 Samuel 6:5 (https://skepticsannotatedbible.com/1sam/6.html#5) <DD>Ye shall give glory unto the God of Israel: peradventure he will lighten his hand from off you, and from off your gods. <DT>1 Samuel 28:13 (https://skepticsannotatedbible.com/1sam/28.html#13) <DD>And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth. <DT>1 Chronicles 16:25 (https://skepticsannotatedbible.com/1chr/16.html#25) <DD>The Lord ... is to be feared above all gods. <DT>Psalm 82:1 (https://skepticsannotatedbible.com/ps/82.html#1) <DD>God standeth in the congregation of the mighty, he judgeth among the gods. <DT>Psalm 82:6 (https://skepticsannotatedbible.com/ps/82.html#6) <DD>I have said, Ye are gods. <DT>Psalm 86:8 (https://skepticsannotatedbible.com/ps/86.html#8) <DD>Among the gods there is none like unto thee, O Lord. <DT>Psalm 96:4 (https://skepticsannotatedbible.com/ps/96.html#4) <DD>For the Lord ... is to be feared above all gods. <DT>Psalm 97:7 (https://skepticsannotatedbible.com/ps/97.html#7) <DD>Worship him, all ye gods. <DT>Psalm 135:5 (https://skepticsannotatedbible.com/ps/135.html#5) <DD>Our Lord is above all gods. <DT>Psalm 136:2 (https://skepticsannotatedbible.com/ps/136.html#2) <DD>O give thanks unto the God of gods. <DT>Jeremiah 1:16 (https://skepticsannotatedbible.com/jer/1.html#16) <DD>I will utter my judgments against them ... who have forsaken me, and have burned incense unto other gods. <DT>Jeremiah 10:11 (https://skepticsannotatedbible.com/jer/10.html#11) <DD>The gods that have not made the heavens and the earth, even they shall perish from the earth, and from under these heavens. <DT>Jeremiah 25:6 (https://skepticsannotatedbible.com/jer/25.html#6) <DD>And go not after other gods to serve them, and to worship them, and provoke me not to anger with the works of your hands; and I will do you no hurt. <DT>Jeremiah 46:25 (https://skepticsannotatedbible.com/jer/46.html#25) <DD>I will punish the multitude of No, and Pharaoh, and Egypt, with their gods. <DT>Zephaniah 2:11 (https://skepticsannotatedbible.com/zeph/2.html#11) <DD>The Lord will be terrible to them: for he will famish all the gods of the earth. <DT>John 10:33-34 (https://skepticsannotatedbible.com/jn/10.html#33) <DD>The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? <DT>1 John 5:7 (https://skepticsannotatedbible.com/1jn/5.html#7) <DD>For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.</DD></DL>

[dw41552]

Hey Zeno

Even though I do my own DD, I just don't feel the need to dig that deep. Like I said I rely mostly on faith for my understanding of the bible. That which I don't undestand is obviously not important enough for me to have to understand. In other words it doesn't fit in with God's will for me. That which is according to His will I have no problem understanding. If I read a verse and I ask God to help me understand, if he thinks it will help me in my life some way He will give me understanding, but If he thinks I will get nothing from the verse, why clutter my mind with something I can't use. The verse may be pertinent to someone else's life but not mine.

I believe the bible is the word of God. Man may have held the pen, but God controled the man. We can learn things from the Old Testament, but we should be living by the words of the New Testament. Were we, the world would be a safe loving paradise. But because most live outside of God's will it is not even close.

So many put all there efforts into the things of this world when it is just a temporary place for us to live until Jesus returns, and it brings a tear to my eye when I think about the needless destuction man brings on himself because of stubborness, egocentricity, greed, and relying on his own understanding. There is so so much more that God has for us if we would just listen and obey. And even if we have to endure hardship for a hundred years, what is that compared to living for eternity in pure bliss.

Have a good one






Consider the alternative hypothesis that the Bible as we know it is the work of men.

Have you read about the history of this collection of books, how it came to be, what was excluded by what group of elders, the languages and translations involved, the politicking, its relation to other ancient texts, such as the Gilgamesh Epos, and the Koran, how the first five books of the OT are composed of four separate and identifiable texts? Fascinating history!

At some point you may want to study broader. Using a computer text search on certain key words you see as central only gets you so far.

I can recommend books by archaeologists Finkelstein and Silberman such as "David and Solomon: In Search of the Bible's Sacred Kings and the Roots of the Western Tradition" and "The Bible Unearthed: Archaeology's New Vision of Ancient Israel and the Origin of Its Sacred Texts."

They confront the question that any thoughtful student will ask at some point: If the Bible is not a history book what role did and can it play, and what is its value.

Have a studious Christmas.

[RichT]

Edward/Valley Oak has decided to take a break from WaccoBB.net.
I much prefer the frothing at the mouth coming from someone intelligent like Edward as opposed to the mindless brainwashed rants of a born again fool that would impose their narrow ideology upon others!!!!!

A militant agnostic

[RichT]

I believe the bible is the word of God.
Blind faith without questioning is a very dangerous thing and has resulted in so many evils in this world (war, murder, persecution, etc).

[Braggi]

... When Moses and Alijah appeared to Jesus and His appostles, where could they have possibly come from except Heaven.
...

So, now I know where Paul Newman came from when he appeared before me and my family recently. Where else could he possibly have come from?

-Jeff

[Braggi]

The bible mentions many gods yes, but there is only one true God, all the rest are false gods. And as the True God has made very clear we are to worship Him and Him only. ...

True or false to whom? My Gods and Goddesses are as true to me as yours is to you, perhaps more so because I see them regularly, dine with them, make love with them, work with them, laugh and cry with them. My deities are here with me and are as real as my flesh and blood. Your God is your fantasy and exists only in the imagination of yourself and others.

It is up to you what you believe.

I believe in Reality.

-Jeff

[phooph]

The bible mentions many gods yes, but there is only one true God, all the rest are false gods. And as the True God has made very clear we are to worship Him and Him only.

Jeremiah 10:10 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=30&chapter=10&verse=10&version=9&context=verse)
But the LORD is the true God, he is the living God, and an everlasting king: at his wrath the earth shall tremble, and the nations shall not be able to abide his indignation.

John 17:3 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=17&verse=3&version=9&context=verse)
And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
John 17:2-4 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=17&verse=2&end_verse=4&version=9&context=context) (in Context) John 17 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=17&version=9&context=chapter) (Whole Chapter)

1 Thessalonians 1:9 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=59&chapter=1&verse=9&version=9&context=verse)
For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God;

1 John 5:20 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=69&chapter=5&verse=20&version=9&context=verse)
And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

God Bless

This is the pronouncement of a people who state that their god is a jealous god. (I assume that most gods suffer from the sin of jealousy.) It is also the opinion of one group of people who believed they alone had some special relationship with this one and only deity. We usually relegate people who believe they have some exclusive relationship to supernatural beings to the loony category.

These are the same people that believe the earth is a stationary object enclosed in a vault (firmament) in which their god placed a sun, to give light by day, and a moon and stars to give light by night and that the whole thing exists within this dome shaped structure, and that heaven is on the outside of this structure. They view the planets as stars, not other worlds.

Considering the writings of the followers of the gods of India who had a more accurate description of the design of the universe, how this god becomes elevated to the position of the greatest of gods is curious as he would have flunked the basic astronomy section of elementary school science class. The Egyptians also had developed astronomy at a time when the Jews were still without any observable form of science or basic understanding of the reality of the universe. You would think the god of the Hebrews would have clued them in instead of misleading them with primitive folk lore.

As an aside, a common misunderstanding of the quote by Jesus the even Lucifer in all his glory is cast down, is that Jesus is referring to Satan. In reality, Jesus is referring to the morning star which was named Lucifer ('light bringer' in Greek) as it presaged the rising of the sun.

[lifequest]

Perhaps the built in disagreements between Christian/Jewish and Eastern and other related beliefs comes from different perceptions of history, ethics and the difficulty in translating beliefs dating back millenia to today.

Jews and Christians see history as a straight line (with progress over time sometimes being debatable) versus cyclical. The Old Testament was orally transmitted to a fairly primitive people - understanding basic ethics was tough enough - science forget it. But at least they pioneered the concept of treating the individual as important which was lacking in all other societies at that time and later. We still benefit from that.

I read something recently comparing the Jewish practice of teaching reading and writing over the centuries (even though for a long time it was sacred text mainly) versus some Christian and non-Christian sects and religions that stressed imagery at the expense of education.

If a religion is to remain relevant it has to be treated as a matrix of sorts - flexible and adjusting to progress and development without losing it's main focus. Maybe this explains some of the vague statements in sacred writings which people erroneously use to justify any position they please. Its the unreasoned interpretations that can cause harm...

At least we have a choice now to follow what we want and believe or not believe what we want without direct state or community sanctions.

The sad history we have comes from states and elites misusing religion and manipulating its citizens for ends that they always learn to regret. I see the value of religion and spirituality in personal life be it for learning or consolation or whatever. Politicizing it through bringing it into government is dangerous - someone is always on the outside.

[phooph]

Hey Zeno

Even though I do my own DD, I just don't feel the need to dig that deep. Like I said I rely mostly on faith for my understanding of the bible. That which I don't undestand is obviously not important enough for me to have to understand. In other words it doesn't fit in with God's will for me. That which is according to His will I have no problem understanding. If I read a verse and I ask God to help me understand, if he thinks it will help me in my life some way He will give me understanding, but If he thinks I will get nothing from the verse, why clutter my mind with something I can't use. The verse may be pertinent to someone else's life but not mine.

I believe the bible is the word of God. Man may have held the pen, but God controled the man. We can learn things from the Old Testament, but we should be living by the words of the New Testament. Were we, the world would be a safe loving paradise. But because most live outside of God's will it is not even close.

So many put all there efforts into the things of this world when it is just a temporary place for us to live until Jesus returns, and it brings a tear to my eye when I think about the needless destuction man brings on himself because of stubborness, egocentricity, greed, and relying on his own understanding. There is so so much more that God has for us if we would just listen and obey. And even if we have to endure hardship for a hundred years, what is that compared to living for eternity in pure bliss.

Have a good one

This is pretty much the belief of people like Osama Bin Ladin and his ilk. The Koran is the word of Allah passed on through his one true prophet, Mohamed. Faith is more important than truth and if people only followed the faith as he understands it the world would be a paradise.

Of course you don't feel the need to dig deep. Look at what's happened to some other true believers who've done so. They have discovered that they had put their faith in the concoctions of mere humans with sometimes questionable motives and that their belief was based on misunderstanding, mistranslation, and deliberate manipulation.
<embed id="VideoPlayback" src="https://video.google.com/googleplayer.swf?docid=397006836098752165&hl=en&fs=true" style="width:400px;height:326px" allowFullScreen="true" allowScriptAccess="always" type="application/x-shockwave-flash"> </embed>

[Zeno Swijtink]

Hey Zeno

Even though I do my own DD, I just don't feel the need to dig that deep. Like I said I rely mostly on faith for my understanding of the bible. That which I don't undestand is obviously not important enough for me to have to understand. In other words it doesn't fit in with God's will for me. That which is according to His will I have no problem understanding. If I read a verse and I ask God to help me understand, if he thinks it will help me in my life some way He will give me understanding, but If he thinks I will get nothing from the verse, why clutter my mind with something I can't use. The verse may be pertinent to someone else's life but not mine.

I believe the bible is the word of God. Man may have held the pen, but God controled the man. We can learn things from the Old Testament, but we should be living by the words of the New Testament. Were we, the world would be a safe loving paradise. But because most live outside of God's will it is not even close.

So many put all there efforts into the things of this world when it is just a temporary place for us to live until Jesus returns, and it brings a tear to my eye when I think about the needless destuction man brings on himself because of stubborness, egocentricity, greed, and relying on his own understanding. There is so so much more that God has for us if we would just listen and obey. And even if we have to endure hardship for a hundred years, what is that compared to living for eternity in pure bliss.

Have a good one

How do you read the NT? Do you take a book, say one of the gospels, or one of the collections of letters, and read it from front to end, maybe every day a passage (this is how my parents did it, after meals, and how I have heard the complete bible several times while I grew up) , or do you, if you are in need of God's word, open the bible at almost a random place - and consider the place that comes up itself as the place to which God leads you - and then try to understand the passage as containing a message for you? Or how?

And when you say "I rely mostly on faith for my understanding of the bible" does that mean that if you feel you understand the passage, you trust that this is the understanding God wants you to have, and if you don't understand the passage, or don't see how the passage applies to you there and then, you conclude that God thinks you have no need for that passage right now, and you may repeat the process?

Have you ever changed your understanding of a passage, and if so how did that happen, and how did you experience that?

What has your practice meant for you? You write: "There is so much more that God has for us if we would just listen and obey." How has God blessed you in this sense?

[dw41552]

Ruth

This is pretty much the belief of people like Osama Bin Ladin and his ilk. The Koran is the word of Allah passed on through his one true prophet, Mohamed.

Why do you compare me to Osama Bin Ladin. I'm a born again Christian not a muslim. I've never even thought about strapping a bomb to myself so I can blow up innocent men, women, and children. I and all my Christian family are nothing like these people. We had nothing to do with the world trade center or the Pentagon. Geesh! If I were a little more sensitive I would be offended. :wink: Besides Osama's faith is in a false God...himself.

Faith is more important than truth and if people only followed the faith as he understands it the world would be a paradise.

Faith leads us to the truth, and the truth will set you free. That puts the importance of truth right up there to.


And I want to thank you for the video. It encouraged me to rely on my faith even more. This is nothing new. we know that man has played a big part in translating the Bible, but it's still the word of God. If we Had the very first original books of the bible, would that change a thing. Would the world be any different. No. The majority of people have been rejecting God since the beginning of time, even when they saw the many miracles of God in the Old Testament, and the many Miracles of Jesus for themseves.

I rely on God to help me undersatand what I'm reading to make sure it is indeed His words. So my time is better spent doing other things for God. Besides I was forced by my father to either go live on the streets or join the army. So as soon as I turned 17 I enlisted. I didn't make it past the tenth grade. I did get a Ged when I was in the service, but that's as far as my education went. So digging deep I leave to those that have the education for it. God gives Christians different tasks and gifts. There are those that do what I do, there are those that study scripture inside and out, and there are those that do many other things for God. So just because I don't do what Zeno suggested I do is no reason for you to be angry with me.


God Bless






This is pretty much the belief of people like Osama Bin Ladin and his ilk. The Koran is the word of Allah passed on through his one true prophet, Mohamed. Faith is more important than truth and if people only followed the faith as he understands it the world would be a paradise.

Of course you don't feel the need to dig deep. Look at what's happened to some other true believers who've done so. They have discovered that they had put their faith in the concoctions of mere humans with sometimes questionable motives and that their belief was based on misunderstanding, mistranslation, and deliberate manipulation.
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[phooph]

Perhaps the built in disagreements between Christian/Jewish and Eastern and other related beliefs comes from different perceptions of history, ethics and the difficulty in translating beliefs dating back millenia to today.

Jews and Christians see history as a straight line (with progress over time sometimes being debatable) versus cyclical. The Old Testament was orally transmitted to a fairly primitive people - understanding basic ethics was tough enough - science forget it. But at least they pioneered the concept of treating the individual as important which was lacking in all other societies at that time and later. We still benefit from that.

I read something recently comparing the Jewish practice of teaching reading and writing over the centuries (even though for a long time it was sacred text mainly) versus some Christian and non-Christian sects and religions that stressed imagery at the expense of education.

If a religion is to remain relevant it has to be treated as a matrix of sorts - flexible and adjusting to progress and development without losing it's main focus. Maybe this explains some of the vague statements in sacred writings which people erroneously use to justify any position they please. Its the unreasoned interpretations that can cause harm...

At least we have a choice now to follow what we want and believe or not believe what we want without direct state or community sanctions.

The sad history we have comes from states and elites misusing religion and manipulating its citizens for ends that they always learn to regret. I see the value of religion and spirituality in personal life be it for learning or consolation or whatever. Politicizing it through bringing it into government is dangerous - someone is always on the outside.

Religions are the product of the cultures that create them and reflect the beliefs and values of those cultures which are, themselves, influenced by environmental forces. The ethics set out in the Bible exist in other cultures with other gods and are basic to the functionality of any society. Religion has always been used to enforce cultural norms and are thus political at their core. The mistakes are in insisting on following the religious beliefs that were created in a culture that no longer exists. This would equate to following laws and customs that were created 150 years ago that no longer apply in a very changed society, such as the one in Montana that allows a group of seven or more Indians to be shot because a group that size represents a raiding party and a threat to decent white folk. Or how about the one that requires motor cars to be preceded on the streets at night by someone bearing a lantern because at one time they had no headlights. These laws are still on the books, by the way and could be used to justify murder or harassment of drivers. There are also still laws on the books in several states prohibiting any but missionary position for those engaged in sex. This is still prosecuted in some states where in the midst of a drug bust or other police action, a couple is found participating in a prohibited style of coitus.

Getting back to the original topic of this thread, homosexuality was a deviation from the norm in a society in which people married young and were expected to produce as many off spring as possible. Also, the Greeks were notorious for their male homosexual relationships based on a belief that women were not really people and true love could only be experienced between males. They also had a practice of keeping youthful males as sex toys, the catamite (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catamite). Discouraging such practices in their own culture would seem prudent.

We have the story of David and Jonathan that appears rather homosexual in nature.

From 1 Samuel:

18:1 And it came to pass, when he had made an end of speaking unto Saul, that the soul of Jonathan was knit with the soul of David, and Jonathan loved him as his own soul.

18:3 Then Jonathan and David made a covenant, because he loved him as his own soul.

19:2 But Jonathan Saul's son delighted much in David

20:30 Then Saul's anger was kindled against Jonathan, and he said unto him, Thou son of the perverse rebellious woman, do not I know that thou hast chosen the son of Jesse to thine own confusion, and unto the confusion of thy mother's nakedness?

20:41 And as soon as the lad was gone, David arose out of a place toward the south, and fell on his face to the ground, and bowed himself three times: and they kissed one another, and wept one with another, until David exceeded.

And from 2 Samuel:

1:26 I am distressed for thee, my brother Jonathan: very pleasant hast thou been unto me: thy love to me was wonderful, passing the love of women.

Both David and Jonathan seem bereft when David marries Jonathan's sister, Michal. One would think that becoming in-laws would not cause so much distress between friends.


The OT makes no mention of female homosexuality except possibly for the statement that it is an abomination to the lord for women to wear men's clothing. When you consider that both men and women wore long skirted dresses (robes) the difference between the two is only in style. When you consider that it is now common for women to wear pants, something that was once against the law in a number of these United States and its territories, it seems times have changed and so must the laws.

[dw41552]

Zeno

I'll give you one thing, you sure are persistant.:):

Back in 1984 times were tough. To make a long story short I was at my wits end. I had been working with a gentleman that was a Christian, and he would feed me bits and pieces about Christianity. Enough to arouse my curiosity. Plus I had always, even as a Kid had a fasination about religion. Well my life being in turmoil at the time encouraged me to read the bible more. One day I was at the end of my rope so I found a small room and shut the door behind me and then got on my knees and started praying. I didn't really know how to pray so crying like a baby I asked God, "what do you want from me?"
The one and only thought that came to my mind was, (Not audibly) "Humble yourself before me". That was it. Four simple words. I'm thinking to myself, "Is that it. was that really from God, or was that just me." So I kind of blew it off. At lunch I grabbed my bible and thought, "What do I want to read?" So I figured I'd do the finger thing. I closed my eyes flipped it open and put my finger on the page. I'm sure by now you've guessed what my finger landed on. You're right, this verse:

James 4:10 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=66&chapter=4&verse=10&version=31&context=verse)
Humble yourselves before the Lord, and he will lift you up.

Needless to say I was totally blown away. I still get goose bumps when I think about it. The Sunday after that I attended a Church service. At the end when they made the alter call I was the only one who went forward in front of all those people. Talk about a humbling experience. But that's what God told me to do. And he's a lot bigger than I am.Big Smile

Ever since then half of what I read starts where the finger lands, and that is always done in faith. "OK God what do you have for me this time" so to speak. I've also read it from start to finish more than a dozen times. Sometimes it depends on what I'm feeling at the moment. I have no set way of reading the Bible. There have been many times I have gone to the bible for comfort when I strongly feel the presence of satan. Works every time.

I try to read at least a half an hour to an hour every day. I don't always succeed. When I don't understand I stop and pray for understanding and then meditate on the word until I get it or not, and 90% of the time I get it. Those times I don't, I don't worry about it. Now this doesn't happen very often which is why I don't make a big deal about it. Yes most of the time I do trust the understanding I get is of God.

Have you ever changed your understanding of a passage, and if so how did that happen, and how did you experience that?

You know, to be honest I'm sure I have, especially in the beginning, but I can't think of one paticular insident off the top of my head. My faith hasn't always been as strong as it is right now. I'll be honest, for the most part my faith is strong but their are times it falters.

What has your practice meant for you? You write: "There is so much more that God has for us if we would just listen and obey." How has God blessed you in this sense?

My Christianity means everything to me. Without it I am dead on the inside waiting for the outside to catch up. It gives me hope in a dark and gloomy world. It has changed my life. Zeno, if you knew me 20 years ago, you would know that something drastically changed my life for the better. I really shouldn't be here. I believe God kept me alive to show others no matter ones past or what they did God can save anyone if you'll ask Him. How has God blessed me? By His grace I am saved even though I don't deserve it. There are so many things I could list. Let's put it this way, I have a lot of goose bump moments. God is good!!!!!!!!!!!

I'm going to take a break from the computer for a few days and enjoy them with my 17 year old son, the second greatest blessing God has given me. You guys are wearing me out.:): I knew I would get some resposes from my first post But I never imagined it would be this many.

I wish all of you a merry Christmas and many blessings on the year to come.

Butch








How do you read the NT? Do you take a book, say one of the gospels, or one of the collections of letters, and read it from front to end, maybe every day a passage (this is how my parents did it, after meals, and how I have heard the complete bible several times while I grew up) , or do you, if you are in need of God's word, open the bible at almost a random place - and consider the place that comes up itself as the place to which God leads you - and then try to understand the passage as containing a message for you? Or how?

And when you say "I rely mostly on faith for my understanding of the bible" does that mean that if you feel you understand the passage, you trust that this is the understanding God wants you to have, and if you don't understand the passage, or don't see how the passage applies to you there and then, you conclude that God thinks you have no need for that passage right now, and you may repeat the process?

Have you ever changed your understanding of a passage, and if so how did that happen, and how did you experience that?

What has your practice meant for you? You write: "There is so much more that God has for us if we would just listen and obey." How has God blessed you in this sense?

[phooph]

Ruth

This is pretty much the belief of people like Osama Bin Ladin and his ilk. The Koran is the word of Allah passed on through his one true prophet, Mohamed.

Why do you compare me to Osama Bin Ladin. I'm a born again Christian not a muslim. I've never even thought about strapping a bomb to myself so I can blow up innocent men, women, and children. I and all my Christian family are nothing like these people. We had nothing to do with the world trade center or the Pentagon. Geesh! If I were a little more sensitive I would be offended. :wink: Besides Osama's faith is in a false God...himself.

Osama Bin Ladin was once a self indulgent rich kid who had the Islamic equivalent of being born again and dedicated himself to serving Allah. Allah is the Muslim name for the God of Abraham, so the Muslims worship the same god as do those of the Jewish and Christian faiths. Muslims also recognize and honor Jesus and believe that he will return in the midst of a war fought by the Madhi (Islamic redeemer) and slay the Dajjal (Islamic anti-Christ). Bin Ladin believes that he is serving Alllah and is applying the Islamic custom of takfiri, which is a crusade against apostasy. This is properly carried out against Muslims who are committing heresy, but Bin Ladin has incorrectly included non-Muslims in his crusade. Like many zealots he picks and chooses which parts of the Koran to honor, but he was called by Allah, and his faith is more important to him than truth.




Faith leads us to the truth, and the truth will set you free. That puts the importance of truth right up there to.

I have too often witnessed faith leading people to falsehood. Faith can be a great downfall. (Look at those who put faith in a highly regarded hedge fund manager who now have empty retirement accounts.) Faith is what Bin Ladin operates on. He is akin to those Christians who through faith, carried out in the name of God and to preserve the faith, the inquisitions, the Christian takfiri, which over a period of three centuries tortured to death millions of Christians for not being the right kind of Christians or of being worshipers of Satan.

If faith led everyone to truth we would have only one religion in the world as faith would lead all to the same truth, as truth is universal.



And I want to thank you for the video. It encouraged me to rely on my faith even more. This is nothing new. we know that man has played a big part in translating the Bible, but it's still the word of God. If we Had the very first original books of the bible, would that change a thing. Would the world be any different. No. The majority of people have been rejecting God since the beginning of time, even when they saw the many miracles of God in the Old Testament, and the many Miracles of Jesus for themseves.

I rely on God to help me undersatand what I'm reading to make sure it is indeed His words. So my time is better spent doing other things for God. Besides I was forced by my father to either go live on the streets or join the army. So as soon as I turned 17 I enlisted. I didn't make it past the tenth grade. I did get a Ged when I was in the service, but that's as far as my education went. So digging deep I leave to those that have the education for it. God gives Christians different tasks and gifts. There are those that do what I do, there are those that study scripture inside and out, and there are those that do many other things for God. So just because I don't do what Zeno suggested I do is no reason for you to be angry with me.


God Bless

I'm not angry at you. I understand if study is not your thing.

I have two born-agains in my family. I'm a preacher's kid. I also have a high capacity for logic. I grew up in the faith and became aware as a teenager that I was being fed some hogwash. I later became an agnostic and then I had a direct experience with what people call God. This being spoke two words to me. It said, "I am." I was overwhelmed with love and recognition that I had returned to my source. I experienced unconditional love. I was home. This being knew everything in the universe so I asked it one question. What about the Bible? So it showed me a Bible, one of those black leather bound kind with the red ribbon to mark your place and the gold edging on the pages. It was floating in the darkness of vast space kind of like the monolith in the movie 2001. Suddenly a ray of light burst forth from the Bible, and then another and another and on and on till it looked like someone had shot it with a machine gun and held a bright light behind it. I was led to understand that the rays of light were the light of truth. I was also led to understand that the remainder was untruth. The rays covered about 25% of the Bible. The clear message to me was that there is truth in the Bible but it is not all truth nor mostly truth. It is mostly untrue with truths in there. That was the truth that set me free.

The being I encountered was not the intolerant grouch of the Old Testament. It was beyond emotion and beyond all human comprehension, and in no way was it a person. It was not human in any sense of the word, yet it was more familiar to me than my mother. It had no concern for the religious beliefs of anyone. It had no interest in punishing anyone. It rejected no one. It didn't care if you were "saved." It didn't care who fell in love with who. All of those things were irrelevant. It only had one agenda and that was the agenda of love.

Back when I was a "believer" I used to argue with atheists. Now as an experiencer I have more respect for them. People swallow religious beliefs like babies being fed baby food. Books are baby food which you may need in the beginning, but if you don't mature beyond them to a direct relationship with whatever that being is that humans reduce to calling God (or Goddess), then you are a follower of the agendas of imperfect humans. Books and religious teachings are only roadsigns. They are not destinations.They are not to be worshiped. Go sit in the woods and look and listen. The great I Am is everywhere.

Bart Ehrman was an evangelical who believed in the Bible with his whole heart and wanted to know all about it. Learning all about it made him an agnostic because his faith was based on a book and the book proved to be fallible. Your lack of scholarly skills may save you from that, but it won't save you from falling prey to the all too human agendas that lurk in the "good book." If you are going to be relying on books, I recommend you consider the books of other faiths to find common ground. Most of what Jesus taught is a reiteration of preceding faiths. Cross referencing is useful.

[MsTerry]

Edward is a hate-spewing, intolerant, homicidal homosexual.
I have no idea why you equate him or his rantings with intelligence.
Butch has found something in his life that helps him deal with his anger and frustation, I don't see why that makes him mindless.
I do see a lot of kindness in his words, I can't say the same about Ed or you!


I much prefer the frothing at the mouth coming from someone intelligent like Edward as opposed to the mindless brainwashed rants of a born again fool that would impose their narrow ideology upon others!!!!!

A militant agnostic

[dw41552]

Mam

First you compare me to Bin Ladin, then you insinuate I'm loony. Why do you feel the need to try and belittle someone just because they think differently than you?

Jealous God. Have you ever heard of a metaphor. The one and only true God cannot sin. It is impossible. And by all means please name one god that has done the things that my God has done, and name one man who has done a tenth of the good Jesus Christ has done for this world. My God is elevated above all other gods becase they're not real. They are false gods conjured up out of the minds of those that live outside the will of the true God. They invent gods to fit their own life styles. Name one thing any of these false gods have done for anyone.

A relationship with jesus Christ is not exclusive to one group. A relationship with Jesus is open to you and every single human on this planet. But you can't find Him if you don't look.

These are the same people that believe the earth is a stationary object enclosed in a vault (firmament) in which their god placed a sun, to give light by day, and a moon and stars to give light by night and that the whole thing exists within this dome shaped structure, and that heaven is on the outside of this structure. They view the planets as stars, not other worlds.

No disrespect intended, but what in the world does this pargraph have to do with anything. See, once again you insult the inteligence of Christians just because they think differently than you. What's funny is that I probably know more about astronomy than you do. It is a hobby of mine. Nothing is stationary. every object in the universe is in motion. And personally I view planets as the planet Mercury, the planet Venus, then there's our world, and the planet Mars etc. etc. I'm sorry mam but that is a rediculous statement. How many people do you know that can tell which points of light are the planets.

As an aside, a common misunderstanding of the quote by Jesus the even Lucifer in all his glory is cast down, is that Jesus is referring to Satan. In reality, Jesus is referring to the morning star which was named Lucifer ('light bringer' in Greek) as it presaged the rising of the sun.

Not true. There is no verse where Jesus refers to Lucifer. The only verse that comes close to what you are quoting is:

Luke 10:18 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=49&chapter=10&verse=18&version=50&context=verse)
And He said to them, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.
Luke 10:17-19 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=49&chapter=10&verse=17&end_verse=19&version=50&context=context) (in Context) Luke 10 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=49&chapter=10&version=50&context=chapter) (Whole Chapter)

Or:

Isaiah 14 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=29&chapter=14&verse=12&version=50&context=verse): 12-15
The Fall of Lucifer

12 “ How you are fallen from heaven,
O Lucifer, son of the morning!
How you are cut down to the ground,
You who weakened the nations!
13 For you have said in your heart:

‘ I will ascend into heaven,
I will exalt my throne above the stars of God;
I will also sit on the mount of the congregation
On the farthest sides of the north;
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds,
I will be like the Most High.’
15 Yet you shall be brought down to Sheol, (Hades)
To the lowest depths of the Pit.


In Latin, the word "Lucifer", meaning "Light-Bringer" (from lux, lucis, "light", and ferre, "to bear, bring"), is a name for the "Morning Star (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morning_Star)" (the planet (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planet)Venus (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venus) in its dawn appearances). The Latin Vulgate (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vulgate) version of the Bible used this word twice to refer to the Morning Star: once in 2 Peter 1:19 (https://php.ug.cs.usyd.edu.au/~jnot4610/bibref.php?book=2%20Peter&verse=1:19&src=!) to translate the Greek (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_language) word "Φωσφόρος" (Phosphoros), which has exactly the same literal meaning of "Light-Bringer" that "Lucifer" has in Latin; and once in Isaiah 14:12 (https://php.ug.cs.usyd.edu.au/~jnot4610/bibref.php?book=%20Isaiah&verse=14:12&src=!) to translate "הילל" (Hêlēl), which also means "Morning Star". In the latter passage the title of "Morning Star" is given to the tyrannous Babylonian (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babylon) king, who the prophet says is destined to fall. This passage was later applied to the prince of the demons, and so the name "Lucifer" came to be used for Satan (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satan)



God Bless






This is the pronouncement of a people who state that their god is a jealous god. (I assume that most gods suffer from the sin of jealousy.) It is also the opinion of one group of people who believed they alone had some special relationship with this one and only deity. We usually relegate people who believe they have some exclusive relationship to supernatural beings to the loony category.

These are the same people that believe the earth is a stationary object enclosed in a vault (firmament) in which their god placed a sun, to give light by day, and a moon and stars to give light by night and that the whole thing exists within this dome shaped structure, and that heaven is on the outside of this structure. They view the planets as stars, not other worlds.

Considering the writings of the followers of the gods of India who had a more accurate description of the design of the universe, how this god becomes elevated to the position of the greatest of gods is curious as he would have flunked the basic astronomy section of elementary school science class. The Egyptians also had developed astronomy at a time when the Jews were still without any observable form of science or basic understanding of the reality of the universe. You would think the god of the Hebrews would have clued them in instead of misleading them with primitive folk lore.

As an aside, a common misunderstanding of the quote by Jesus the even Lucifer in all his glory is cast down, is that Jesus is referring to Satan. In reality, Jesus is referring to the morning star which was named Lucifer ('light bringer' in Greek) as it presaged the rising of the sun.

[dw41552]

Alrighty then! Been nice talkin to ya. You have a nice life.

God Bless



True or false to whom? My Gods and Goddesses are as true to me as yours is to you, perhaps more so because I see them regularly, dine with them, make love with them, work with them, laugh and cry with them. My deities are here with me and are as real as my flesh and blood. Your God is your fantasy and exists only in the imagination of yourself and others.

It is up to you what you believe.

I believe in Reality.

-Jeff

[Zeno Swijtink]

(...) Well my life being in turmoil at the time encouraged me to read the bible more. One day I was at the end of my rope so I found a small room and shut the door behind me and then got on my knees and started praying. I didn't really know how to pray so crying like a baby I asked God, "what do you want from me?"
The one and only thought that came to my mind was, (Not audibly) "Humble yourself before me". That was it. Four simple words. I'm thinking to myself, "Is that it. was that really from God, or was that just me." So I kind of blew it off. At lunch I grabbed my bible and thought, "What do I want to read?" So I figured I'd do the finger thing. I closed my eyes flipped it open and put my finger on the page. I'm sure by now you've guessed what my finger landed on. You're right, this verse:

James 4:10 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=66&chapter=4&verse=10&version=31&context=verse)
Humble yourselves before the Lord, and he will lift you up.

Needless to say I was totally blown away. I still get goose bumps when I think about it. (...)

Thank you for telling this part of your story.

I think I understand why your way of reading the Bible (fingering for a passage) appears to protect you against possible false readings caused by the transcribing errors and intentional deletions and additions that are endemic in the present text of the bible, as Bart Ehrman explains in his book "Misquoting Jesus," and other scholars have done before.

You may believe that God guided the scribes in making these mistakes and in making these changes.

But even better, God is a living guide for you and He will lead you to the appropriate passage and interpretation. He cannot be mistaken, and since you trust him completely, you feel you cannot mistaken.

You may not be troubled by the fact that the different versions of the bible differ in what to Ehrman, and me, seem to be important ways since you think that God can use these different versions to communicate with different readers who seek Him out in their own life situation.

A next time a reader may even be led to the same passage in this fingering and learn something different from it, but since it's for another situation inconsistencies cannot really arise.

I see a similarity between this fingering for a passage and trusting God to give you the correct understanding, and certain spiritual practices here in Sonoma County. I am thinking of so-called "channeling," a process of receiving messages or inspiration from invisible beings or spirits.

Your version I think is better, since it is open to anyone and quite affordable. "Channeling" seems to me - but I may be incorrect, and please anyone correct me if I am wrong - to depend on people with special powers, mediums, who often charge a fat fee for their services.

[dw41552]

Zeno

Now remember that's not the only way I read the bible. The only time I use the finger method is when I pick up the good book and can't decide what I want to read. Many times I just start at the beginning of one of the books and read it from start to finish. Or I may just start at the beginning of the New Testament and read the whole thing all the way through to the end.

I do believe the original authors of the books were devinely guided By God.
I'm sure there are those who lived according to God's will and like me depended on faith to guide them in rewriting and interpreting the bible, and I'm sure there are those that didn't live according to God's will who have indeed made mistakes while rewriting an interpreting God's word.

One of the areas I have a hard time with as there are many Christians that misinterpret this part of the bible, and that deals with the tongues issue. I attended an Assembly of God church for 6 years. They believe evidence of being filled with God's Spirit is speaking in toungues. The church and I strongly disagreed on that issue. The way they used toungues was out of order and not of the Bible I read, which is the same as many pentacostals. My belief is that evidence of being filled with God's spirit is how one lives their life. Some people do speak in tongues but not everyone, and not in the way this church does. I felt the need to stay with the church to show them that even though I do not speak in tongues nor have a desire to do so, I am still filled with God's spirit. I finally left that church. This is one of the two areas I did do a lot of research. That and the way they supposedly heal people such as Benny Hinn. Give me a break. (Another subject).

So I agree there are many interpretations of the bible by Christians and Secular society alike. All the more reason th have faith.

If I truely rely on God, no I am not mistaken. However like I said before there have been many times where my faith has faltered where I cannot be sure.

I believe that anyone can pick up the same bible I read most of the time, (New King James Version) And get the same thing out of it as any other bible
if they have true faith. God's not going to say one thing in one bible and say something different in another.

The verse that changed my life means the same for everyone. there's only one way to interpret it.

God's will is the same for everyone, And that is to step out in faith and make Him the head of your life. Each verse has the same meaning for everyone. The bible tells us all, the way to eternal bliss is to admit we are sinners, ask God to forgive us, believe Jesus died on the cross for our sins, ask Him to be the Lord of our lives because only through Him can we get to heaven. and then try our best to live according to his will having faith that he will help us.

Don't even get Me started on psychics, tarot card readers, astrologers, etc. etc.:):

Later


Thank you for telling this part of your story.

I think I understand why your way of reading the Bible (fingering for a passage) appears to protect you against possible false readings caused by the transcribing errors and intentional deletions and additions that are endemic in the present text of the bible, as Bart Ehrman explains in his book "Misquoting Jesus," and other scholars have done before.

You may believe that God guided the scribes in making these mistakes and in making these changes. But even better, God is a living guide for you and He will lead you to the appropriate passage and interpretation. He cannot be mistaken, and since you trust him completely, you feel you cannot mistaken.

You may not be troubled by the fact that the different versions of the bible differ in what to Ehrman, and me, seem to be important ways since you think that God can use these different versions to communicate with different readers who seek Him out in their own life situation.

A next time a reader may even be led to the same passage in this fingering and learn something different from it, but since it's for another situation inconsistencies cannot really arise.

I see a similarity between this fingering for a passage and trusting God to give you the correct understanding, and certain spiritual practices here in Sonoma County. I am thinking of so-called "channeling," a process of receiving messages or inspiration from invisible beings or spirits.

Your version I think is better, since it is open to anyone and quite affordable. "Channeling" seems to me - but I may be incorrect, and please anyone correct me if I am wrong - to depend on people with special powers, mediums, who often charge a fat fee for their services.

[dw41552]

Man I guess I must be one bad dude. So far I've twisted the arms of three people here and demanded that they believe what I believe. I didn't realise I was that tough.

So tell me sir what do you believe in?




I much prefer the frothing at the mouth coming from someone intelligent like Edward as opposed to the mindless brainwashed rants of a born again fool that would impose their narrow ideology upon others!!!!!

A militant agnostic

[dw41552]

Hey all

I have started a new thread that might be kinda fun. It's titled What Does Christmas Mean To You? (https://www.waccobb.net/forums/showthread.php?p=78011)

Check it out and leave a post.

Butch

[Lisa W]

Which Edward are you referring to in such hateful way? Lisa


Edward is a hate-spewing, intolerant, homicidal homosexual.
I have no idea why you equate him or his rantings with intelligence.
Butch has found something in his life that helps him deal with his anger and frustation, I don't see why that makes him mindless.
I do see a lot of kindness in his words, I can't say the same about Ed or you!

[MsTerry]

Which Edward are you referring to in such hateful way? Lisa
EDWARD MENDOZA AKA
ROBLE AKA
VALLEY OAK AKA
FRANKLIN JOHNSON AKA
a hate-spewing, intolerant, homicidal homosexual.


It is not in a hateful way that I refer to him, madam.
I looked at his writngs/thoughts and described him in the only way he seems to be able to understand how he comes across.

[phooph]

Mam

First you compare me to Bin Ladin, then you insinuate I'm loony. Why do you feel the need to try and belittle someone just because they think differently than you?

When they hold beliefs that justify the unjust persecution of people. Bin Ladin believes that God requires that he persecute non-believers and heretics. You believe that God requires you to persecute homosexuals. Bin Ladin also would support your belief. You are both operating on faith in books that tell you there are some people it's ok to persecute. If you read the whole of Leviticus you will find there are a lot of other people that God requires you to persecute. You may also find that you are in violation of some of the edicts laid out in Leviticus.


Jealous God. Have you ever heard of a metaphor. The one and only true God cannot sin. It is impossible. And by all means please name one god that has done the things that my God has done, and name one man who has done a tenth of the good Jesus Christ has done for this world. My God is elevated above all other gods because they're not real. They are false gods conjured up out of the minds of those that live outside the will of the true God. They invent gods to fit their own life styles. Name one thing any of these false gods have done for anyone.

I don't think that's a metaphor. The Hebrews were like other people who invented gods to fit their own lifestyle. Since you have limited yourself to reading the Bible and do not know the religious history and traditions of other cultures you may be unaware that other gods in other cultures are said to have performed miracles, healed the sick, raised the dead, given courage to those who were faced with adversity, etc. In some of these cultures their gods were born of virgins, died, were resurrected and all this long before Jesus followed their example.

A lot of good has been done in the name of Jesus. A lot of people have also been tortured, killed, and otherwiser persecuted in the name of Jesus. Christians have gone to war against Christians in the name of Jesus.


A relationship with Jesus Christ is not exclusive to one group. A relationship with Jesus is open to you and every single human on this planet. But you can't find Him if you don't look.

I grew up with the concept of having a relationship with Jesus Christ. I used to tell other people that sort of stuff.

Are you aware that according to the original, officially sanctioned Christian religion, that unless you are a baptized member of their church, your place in Heaven is not reserved? Doesn't matter if you had a life changing experience and believe you are saved. Exclusivity is not limited to only belief in Jesus to get you to God, but also to belief in Jesus according to a particular doctrine and group.


These are the same people that believe the earth is a stationary object enclosed in a vault (firmament) in which their god placed a sun, to give light by day, and a moon and stars to give light by night and that the whole thing exists within this dome shaped structure, and that heaven is on the outside of this structure. They view the planets as stars, not other worlds.

No disrespect intended, but what in the world does this pargraph have to do with anything. See, once again you insult the inteligence of Christians just because they think differently than you. What's funny is that I probably know more about astronomy than you do. It is a hobby of mine. Nothing is stationary. every object in the universe is in motion. And personally I view planets as the planet Mercury, the planet Venus, then there's our world, and the planet Mars etc. etc. I'm sorry mam but that is a rediculous statement. How many people do you know that can tell which points of light are the planets.

The Greeks and Romans did a pretty good job. They defined them as planets and gave them names a few thousand years ago. The point I am making here is that you insist the Bible is the infallible word of God, yet this book gets its astronomy wrong. Your last question above makes my point exactly. The Old Testament was written by people going on their own understanding, not knowledge from a divine source, otherwise they'd have a more accurate understanding of astronomy. As I said before, why did they get it so wrong when other cultures in the region at the time had a better understanding? Divinely guided? Obviously not.


There is no verse where Jesus refers to Lucifer. The only verse that comes close to what you are quoting is:

Luke 10:18 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=49&chapter=10&verse=18&version=50&context=verse)
And He said to them, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.
Luke 10:17-19 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=49&chapter=10&verse=17&end_verse=19&version=50&context=context) (in Context) Luke 10 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=49&chapter=10&version=50&context=chapter) (Whole Chapter)

Or:

Isaiah 14 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=29&chapter=14&verse=12&version=50&context=verse): 12-15
The Fall of Lucifer

12 “ How you are fallen from heaven,
O Lucifer, son of the morning!
How you are cut down to the ground,
You who weakened the nations!
13 For you have said in your heart:

‘ I will ascend into heaven,
I will exalt my throne above the stars of God;
I will also sit on the mount of the congregation
On the farthest sides of the north;
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds,
I will be like the Most High.’
15 Yet you shall be brought down to Sheol, (Hades)
To the lowest depths of the Pit.


In Latin, the word "Lucifer", meaning "Light-Bringer" (from lux, lucis, "light", and ferre, "to bear, bring"), is a name for the "Morning Star (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morning_Star)" (the planet (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planet)Venus (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venus) in its dawn appearances). The Latin Vulgate (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vulgate) version of the Bible used this word twice to refer to the Morning Star: once in 2 Peter 1:19 (https://php.ug.cs.usyd.edu.au/%7Ejnot4610/bibref.php?book=2%20Peter&verse=1:19&src=%21) to translate the Greek (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_language) word "Φωσφόρος" (Phosphoros), which has exactly the same literal meaning of "Light-Bringer" that "Lucifer" has in Latin; and once in Isaiah 14:12 (https://php.ug.cs.usyd.edu.au/%7Ejnot4610/bibref.php?book=%20Isaiah&verse=14:12&src=%21) to translate "הילל" (Hêlēl), which also means "Morning Star". In the latter passage the title of "Morning Star" is given to the tyrannous Babylonian (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babylon) king, who the prophet says is destined to fall. This passage was later applied to the prince of the demons, and so the name "Lucifer" came to be used for Satan (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satan)
God Bless


I stand corrected. Looks like you can do some study when you want to.

[dw41552]

When they hold beliefs that justify the unjust persecution of people. Bin Ladin believes that God requires that he persecute non-believers and heretics. You believe that God requires you to persecute homosexuals. Bin Ladin also would support your belief. You are both operating on faith in books that tell you there are some people it's ok to persecute. If you read the whole of Leviticus you will find there are a lot of other people that God requires you to persecute. You may also find that you are in violation of some of the edicts laid out in Leviticus.

Mam I challenge you to find one sentence of mine where I have persecuted anyone. When one persecutes another they place themselves above that person as his judge. I do not. I've stated several times that I am a sinner just like everyone else. The only difference between most others and I is my faith in God and being saved by His abundant grace, and I try my best to live according to His will. Doesn't make me holier than anyone. I've shared what I know to be true and then left it up to you whether to except it or reject it. Either way I have not judged anyone. I have a cousin who is gay and even though I do not agree with his life style, I do not love him any less, and would do just about anything for him just like I would do for anyone in my family. If you would have read all my posts I state the same for anyone who lives outside of God's will, including fornicaters, robbers, murderers, adulterers, pshychics. astrologers, and the list goes on.


I don't think that's a metaphor. The Hebrews were like other people who invented gods to fit their own lifestyle. Since you have limited yourself to reading the Bible and do not know the religious history and traditions of other cultures you may be unaware that other gods in other cultures are said to have performed miracles, healed the sick, raised the dead, given courage to those who were faced with adversity, etc. In some of these cultures their gods were born of virgins, died, were resurrected and all this long before Jesus followed their example.

And these people who did turn from God did so out of stubborness just like people do today. And because of that stubborness and lack of faith even though they saw many miracles of God with their own eyes were not allowed to enter the promised land. It's no different today. Those that choose the things of this world over God will not make it to heaven.

All other gods are false gods, And my God has warned us about them:
Psalm 4:2 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=23&chapter=4&verse=2&version=31&context=verse)
How long, O men, will you turn my glory into shame ? How long will you love delusions and seek false gods ? Selah
Psalm 4:1-3 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=23&chapter=4&verse=1&end_verse=3&version=31&context=context) (in Context) Psalm 4 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=23&chapter=4&version=31&context=chapter) (Whole Chapter)
Psalm 40:4 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=23&chapter=40&verse=4&version=31&context=verse)
Blessed is the man who makes the LORD his trust, who does not look to the proud, to those who turn aside to false gods.
Psalm 40:3-5 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=23&chapter=40&verse=3&end_verse=5&version=31&context=context) (in Context) Psalm 40 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=23&chapter=40&version=31&context=chapter) (Whole Chapter)
Jeremiah 13:25 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=30&chapter=13&verse=25&version=31&context=verse)
This is your lot, the portion I have decreed for you," declares the LORD, "because you have forgotten me and trusted in false gods.
Jeremiah 13:24-26 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=30&chapter=13&verse=24&end_verse=26&version=31&context=context) (in Context) Jeremiah 13 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=30&chapter=13&version=31&context=chapter) (Whole Chapter)
Jeremiah 16:19 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=30&chapter=16&verse=19&version=31&context=verse)
O LORD, my strength and my fortress, my refuge in time of distress, to you the nations will come from the ends of the earth and say, "Our fathers possessed nothing but false gods, worthless idols that did them no good.
Jeremiah 16:18-20 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=30&chapter=16&verse=18&end_verse=20&version=31&context=context) (in Context) Jeremiah 16 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=30&chapter=16&version=31&context=chapter) (Whole Chapter)
Amos 2:4 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=37&chapter=2&verse=4&version=31&context=verse)
This is what the LORD says: "For three sins of Judah, even for four, I will not turn back {my wrath}. Because they have rejected the law of the LORD and have not kept his decrees, because they have been led astray by false gods, the gods their ancestors followed,
Amos 2:3-5 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=37&chapter=2&verse=3&end_verse=5&version=31&context=context) (in Context) Amos 2 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=37&chapter=2&version=31&context=chapter) (Whole Chapter)
Colossians 2:8 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=58&chapter=2&verse=8&version=50&context=verse)
Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ.
Colossians 2:7-9 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=58&chapter=2&verse=7&end_verse=9&version=50&context=context) (in Context) Colossians 2 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=58&chapter=2&version=50&context=chapter) (Whole Chapter)
Matthew 24:24 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=24&verse=24&version=50&context=verse)
For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.
Matthew 24:23-25 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=24&verse=23&end_verse=25&version=50&context=context) (in Context) Matthew 24 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=24&version=50&context=chapter) (Whole Chapter)

A lot of good has been done in the name of Jesus. A lot of people have also been tortured, killed, and otherwiser persecuted in the name of Jesus. Christians have gone to war against Christians in the name of Jesus.

Those people who gave their lives for their faith I assure you will be rewarded beyond their wildest dreams and they were killed by those that have turned their back on God and lived life according to their own will. And those wars were started by the same stubborn people.

[quote]
I grew up with the concept of having a relationship with Jesus Christ. I used to tell other people that sort of stuff.

Matthew 24:24 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=24&verse=24&version=50&context=verse)
For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.
Matthew 24:23-25 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=24&verse=23&end_verse=25&version=50&context=context) (in Context) Matthew 24 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=24&version=50&context=chapter) (Whole Chapter)Are you aware that according to the original, officially sanctioned Christian religion, that unless you are a baptized member of their church, your place in Heaven is not reserved? Doesn't matter if you had a life changing experience and believe you are saved. Exclusivity is not limited to only belief in Jesus to get you to God, but also to belief in Jesus according to a particular doctrine and group.

That is not true. Let's say you get saved and become a born again Christian and on the way to the church to get baptised you are killed in an auto accident, does that mean you have no place in heaven. Well of course not.
Although we believe it is one of the things we are to do when born again, and the majority of us do, but it is not a prerequisite for salvation, or our spot in heaven.

Water baptism is an outward public showing that we have been born again.
It is the baptism of the Holy Spirit, (The Spirit of God) That saves us. He lives in us to help us try our best to live according to His will.



The Greeks and Romans did a pretty good job. They defined them as planets and gave them names a few thousand years ago. The point I am making here is that you insist the Bible is the infallible word of God, yet this book gets its astronomy wrong. Your last question above makes my point exactly. The Old Testament was written by people going on their own understanding, not knowledge from a divine source, otherwise they'd have a more accurate understanding of astronomy. As I said before, why did they get it so wrong when other cultures in the region at the time had a better understanding? Divinely guided? Obviously not.

I would appreciate it if you could point out the verse/verses that shows the bibles astronomy is wrong.


I stand corrected. Looks like you can do some study when you want to.

I also rely on my faith when I do study.

God Bless

[amollow]

Please change the title of this subject. Everyday do we need to read a sentence stating maybe we should or should not be killed? Continue the discussion as you wish, and please be aware how awful it is for many of us to have to be repeatedly assaulted with the above title.

Aunty Janie

[Barry]

I'm inclined to agree. What shall we call it?
I've only been scanning it.

"Homosexuality and the Bible"?
"Hath G-d wrought Fags?"
"Shall we take the Bible literally"? (You might want to start that one, dw.)


Any other quick ideas? With over 2,600 views, it's one of our best-sellers! :wink:



Please change the title of this subject. Everyday do we need to read a sentence stating maybe we should or should not be killed? Continue the discussion as you wish, and please be aware how awful it is for many of us to have to be repeatedly assaulted with the above title.

Aunty Janie

[theindependenteye]

>>"Homosexuality and the Bible"?

That has my vote. And I agree that it very badly needs changing.
-Conrad

[Barry]

Done!


>>"Homosexuality and the Bible"?

That has my vote. And I agree that it very badly needs changing.
-Conrad

[dw41552]

Instead of labeling one group of people, how about simply titling it' "Sin And The Bible" or "What is sin?" or "What Does The Bible Say About Sin?"

I agree that this title is inappropriate.

Neither God nor I wish death upon anyone.

Butch



I'm inclined to agree. What shall we call it?
I've only been scanning it.

"Homosexuality and the Bible"?
"Hath G-d wrought Fags?"
"Shall we take the Bible literally"? (You might want to start that one, dw.)


Any other quick ideas? With over 2,600 views, it's one of our best-sellers! :wink:

[Lilith Rogers]

Well since it's not even about homosexality anymore, how about "Is your god really better than my goddess?" After all, as far as we know, the Goddess never told anybody to go kill someone in Her name, never said she'd wipe out every living creature on Earth except Noah's folks just because a few people weren't acting properly, never condemned anyone to a firey hell forever for telling a lie sometime, and still doesn't care who you sleep with as long as you do no harm.

Happy New Year. Lilith



Lilith


>>"Homosexuality and the Bible"?

That has my vote. And I agree that it very badly needs changing.
-Conrad

[Lilith Rogers]

PS.

Here's a poem I wrote recently that's pertinent to the subject.
Enjoy.

CREATION STORY



Where did we come from?
Was it a hole in space?
A fiery explosion?
The sea?
The sky?
The back of a turtle?
The mouth of a whale?
The tree of Life?
The womb of the Great Mother?

Where did we come from?
Why are we here?

Of course,
even if we
do at some time
all agree
on the origins
of our planet
and our lives
we will each come up
with such a different answer
to an even more important question--
what should each of us do
in the very brief and precious time
each of us has to be
in this very precious place?



Lilith Rogers
August 26th, 2008

[dw41552]

[quote=lilithrogers;78186]Well since it's not even about homosexality anymore, how about "Is your god really better than my goddess?" After all, as far as we know, the Goddess never told anybody to go kill someone in Her name, never said she'd wipe out every living creature on Earth except Noah's folks just because a few people weren't acting properly, never condemned anyone to a firey hell forever for telling a lie sometime, and still doesn't care who you sleep with as long as you do no harm.[quote]

Hey Lilith

To answer your question, yes my God is thousands of times better than your goddess, because your goddess is not real. Your goddess could not have done those things because she does not exist.

We cannot have a world with no rules and no consequences for breaking those rules. Imagine what this world would be like if there weren't. I believe we would have destroyed ourselves long ago wirhout any help from God.

The consequences for not obeying God and living according to His will are hard because we are a very hard hearted people. He created us and gave us everything and we thank Him by turning our backs on Him and worshiping the things of this world. We humans have been responsible for many more deaths on this planet than God because of greed, ego, pride, stubborness, etc. etc.

You say your goddess doesn't care who we sleep with as long as we do no harm. Mam please explain to me where you see people sleeping with each other out of wedlock does no harm.

1 45,000,000 abortions to date, and that's just the ones we know of. And a lot of you will say that it's a fetus not a human when the child is aborted.

<TABLE class=contentpaneopen><TBODY><TR><TD class=contentheading width="100%">Two Months </TD><TD class=buttonheading align=right width="100%">https://standupgirl.com/web//templates/v4/images/pdf_button.png (https://standupgirl.com/web//index2.php?option=com_content&do_pdf=1&id=64) </TD><TD class=buttonheading align=right width="100%">https://standupgirl.com/web//templates/v4/images/printButton.png (https://standupgirl.com/web//index2.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=64&pop=1&page=0&Itemid=94) </TD><TD class=buttonheading align=right width="100%">https://standupgirl.com/web//templates/v4/images/emailButton.png (https://standupgirl.com/web//index2.php?option=com_content&task=emailform&id=64&itemid=94) </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE class=contentpaneopen border=0><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=top align=left width="70%" colSpan=2>Written by Web Master </TD></TR><TR><TD vAlign=top colSpan=2>https://standupgirl.com/site/images/bodytour/month2_comp.jpgBy 8 weeks the embryo grows to 1/2 an inch, the major muscles system develops and she moves gracefully like a good swimmer although you can't feel it yet.

This tiny human is perfectly developed with long, tapering fingers, feet and toes and whose skin is almost transparent with a highway of delicate arteries and veins visible to the ends of the fingers.

By 10 weeks, 20 tiny baby teeth are forming in the gums, she squints, swallows, moves her tongue, and if you stroke her palm, will make a tight fist. The toes will develop in the next few days and brain waves can be measured and she will react to loud noises.

Did ya know?
By nine weeks the developing baby can hiccup and react to load noises.

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
Looks and sounds human to me. And 48% of abortions happen after this stage of development.

2 Millions diing from STDs
3 Millions of babies having babies
4 Millions of children growing up with only one parent

So if your goddess were real she would be responsible for all of this.

People invent false gods and goddesses to align with their own desires. People who want to be able to justfy having sex with anyone they want regardless of the risk, (Sounds pretty stubborn to me) come up with a god or goddess that says it's OK. My God says it's not OK because He knew the risks. Kind of reminds me of a parent who loves and cares about a child by saying no when they know what the child is asking for is dangerous. So there for if your goddess were real and she says it's OK to sleep with who ever you want knowing the risks, isn't loving you is she?

Oh and by the way God did not destroy mankind because a few were acting improperly. All were corrupt.

Genesis 6:5

The LORD saw how great man's wickedness on the earth had become, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all the time.

Only one was living according to God's will and that was Noah

God Bless

[Zeno Swijtink]

To answer your question, yes my God is thousands of times better than your goddess, because your goddess is not real.

I was raised in the Netherlands, in a Calvinist household, so I got to know the various Christian ideas quite well. I don't remember ever to have "believed" any of it, and by high school I was able to articulate some fundamental metaphysical problems I have with Christianity. Maybe I will write about them in this tread in the near future.

At this point I need to say that the God of the Christians is both cruel and unjust. Even if He exists, He does not deserve to be worshipped.

Cruel: Sinners are sentenced to an eternal stay in Hell. Eternal is a long time. Hell is worse than anything humans have concocted for other humans (Hitler, Pol Pot, ...). Now that's cruel!

Unjust: You may have lived a kind life, unselfish and devoted to the general well being of your community. It doesn't matter, if you have not embraced Christ as your Savior! So think about that peaceful tribe in the Amazon, or on New Guinea, never hear of Christ! Damned they are. Is that fair?

If He exists, the God of the Christians does not deserve to be worshipped.

He would be worse than anything that is not real.

[dw41552]

[quote]
[quote=Zeno Swijtink;78218]I was raised in the Netherlands, in a Calvinist household, so I got to know the various Christians ideas quite well. I don't remember ever to have "believed" any of it, and by high school I was able to articulate some fundamental metaphysical problems I have with Christianity. Maybe I will write about them in this tread in the near future.

Hey Zeno. Hope you had a nice Christmas!

[quote]
At this point I need to say that the God of the Christians is both cruel and unjust. Even if He exists, He does not deserve to be worshipped.
Cruel: Sinners are sentenced to an eternal stay in Hell. Eternal is a long time. Hell is worse than anything humans have concocted for other humans (Hitler, Pol Pot, ...). Now that's cruel!

Actually it is us that do not deserve the grace of God considering how evil we are. He created each and everyone of us and gave us this world and everything in it to use wisely so we could have a good life, and all he asked in return is to ackowledge him as our God and try our best to live according to His will. He has never asked anyone to follow anything that would hurt them in any way, just as many parents do not make their children do things that is harmful to them in any way.

How dare us think God is cruel. He has never killed an innocent human being ever. Yet how many innocent people have been killed by man since our existence. We plunder this earths resources like there's no tomorrow, while polluting the atmosphere to exremely dangerous levels putting our planet closer and closer to extinction for the sake of greed. We kill millions of innocent babies, and adults for the sake of an orgasm. We kill millions of innocent people for the sake of a high. Millions upon millions are killed for the sake of a piece of real estate, and millions more are killed for the sake of a buck. And Why? Because we are the cruel and evil ones, not God. He has given mankind thousands of years to get it right yet we get worse and worse as time goes on. We have become a society of narcissists, all about self indulgence. "To heck with everyone else as long as I get mine." We humans being as evil, stubborn, and self absorbed as we are, are not even phased by the thought of death as a consequence when we're in the middle of a sin, so what is worse than death? A life of eternal torment. Works for me.


[quote]
So think about that peaceful tribe in the Amazon, or on New Guinea, never hear of Christ! Damned they are. Is that fair?


Jesus will not return until everyone has heard the gospel, even those in the jungle:


Matthew 24:4-14

Signs of the End of the Age


4 Jesus answered: "Watch out that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am the Christ, and will deceive many. 6 You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of birth pains.
9 "Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13 but he who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

[quote]
Unjust: You may have lived a kind life, unselfish and devoted to the general well being of your community. It doesn't matter, if you have not embraced Christ as your Savior!

If your parents did the best that they could and gave you the best childhood you could have hoped for yet you turned your back on them as if they never existed, how do you think they would feel. You obviously would have no part in their lives no matter how good a person you thought you were. But if you came back and asked them to forgive you don't you think they would except you with open arms. Just as God would. He has no wish that anyone should parish.

John 3:16
16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

God loves us so much that He came to earth as a man to be brutally tortured and crucfied to death for our sins so that we would have a better chance to make it to heaven. And all we have to do is believe and do our best to live according to His will. Not a bad exchange if you ask me.



[quote]
If He exists, the God of the Christians does not deserve to be worshipped.
He would be worse than anything that is not real.


God Bless your new year

[Zeno Swijtink]

We plunder this earths resources like there's no tomorrow, while polluting the atmosphere to exremely dangerous levels putting our planet closer and closer to extinction for the sake of greed.

Please tell us how we should live on this Earth as Christians.

[phooph]

And these people who did turn from God did so out of stubborness just like people do today. And because of that stubborness and lack of faith even though they saw many miracles of God with their own eyes were not allowed to enter the promised land. It's no different today. Those that choose the things of this world over God will not make it to heaven.

The people I refer to are the people who created the Old Testament. They didn't turn from God. They invented an image of a God who would reinforce their ideas of cultural norms. That is one of the major functions of religions. They invented a God who was punitive, murderous, jealous, and intolerant, someone who could scare people into being compliant. There is nothing loving about the God of the Old Testament.


All other gods are false gods, And my God has warned us about them:

So one god is declared the true god based on his own say so?


Those people who gave their lives for their faith I assure you will be rewarded beyond their wildest dreams and they were killed by those that have turned their back on God and lived life according to their own will. And those wars were started by the same stubborn people.

Maybe you can sort it out for me. When people from the same religion have a dispute over doctrinal interpretation and then go to war against one another, which of them has turned their back on God? How does God choose which ones to reward and which ones to punish. Case in point: members of one religion disagree on what it means when at the Last Supper Jesus tells his disciples to eat of the bread and drink of the wine as it is his own flesh and blood. Some believe that the bread and wine actually turns into the real flesh and blood of Jesus and others believe it is only symbolic, but the disagreement turns into a bloody war in which a lot of people are killed and one group is eventually driven from their homes and land.

Neither of these groups turned to other gods. They continued to be devout believers in the God of Abraham and Jesus the Savior. Each, however, believed that the others were heretics and not true followers of the Bible. So what happens to all those dead people who were willing to die for their faith? Which were faithful and which turned away from God?

How about when one Christian country goes to war against another? Which side does God choose? The countries of Europe fought a lot of wars against one another at times when they were all populated by loyal members of the Roman Catholic faith. Which side is God on? Who's prayers for success in battle does God answer?

Hitler believed he was doing the work of God when he sought to rid the world of undesirable people (Jews, homosexuals, Gypsies). He was purifying the world to make it more Godly. He was working on behalf of God. How could that be wrong? He was behaving no differently than the followers of Moses who were told by God to murder all the Canaanites as they were an impure people who happened to inconveniently be in the way.


Are you aware that according to the original, officially sanctioned Christian religion, that unless you are a baptized member of their church, your place in Heaven is not reserved? Doesn't matter if you had a life changing experience and believe you are saved. Exclusivity is not limited to only belief in Jesus to get you to God, but also to belief in Jesus according to a particular doctrine and group.

That is not true. Let's say you get saved and become a born again Christian and on the way to the church to get baptized you are killed in an auto accident, does that mean you have no place in heaven. Well of course not.
Although we believe it is one of the things we are to do when born again, and the majority of us do, but it is not a prerequisite for salvation, or our spot in heaven.

The first government sanctioned Christian church was the Church of Rome, which has since its beginning declared that only baptized members in good standing of its particular faith will ever get to Heaven. So not only do you need to be a follower of Jesus, but you must also be a member of that particular form of Christianity. If you think this is a false declaration, consider that millions of Roman Catholics would disagree. Does that make them right? No. Does it make those who say there is only a place in Heaven for followers of Jesus? Same answer.

My brand is the only legitimate brand is the first clue to me that someone is lying.


Water baptism is an outward public showing that we have been born again. It is the baptism of the Holy Spirit, (The Spirit of God) That saves us. He lives in us to help us try our best to live according to His will.

Water baptism was practiced by the Jews and is a common symbolic purification ritual practiced in many religions, not only in Christianity. Jesus was himself baptized and he was a practicing Jew, not a Christian. Was Jesus born again? The phenomenon of being "born again" originated in the 1800s and was not till then a practice or requirement of Christianity despite its one singular mention in the New Testament.

I've seen people go through the born again experience from participating in personal growth workshops. They were saved from a life of misery and self destruction by a weekend or two of intensive self examination and identification with fellow sufferers where they learned they were not unique in their sins and suffering nor condemned to a life of more of the same. They then became obsessive proselytizers witnessing to all around that this is the way to salvation.

Even being born again is not unique to a relationship with Jesus.

[phooph]

Hey Lilith

To answer your question, yes my God is thousands of times better than your goddess, because your goddess is not real. Your goddess could not have done those things because she does not exist.

Goddess worship predated God worship. Gods are Johnny-come-latelies on the deity scene. The Sumerian's had a god and a goddess who created the world in six days in a strikingly similar manner as the god of the OT only they did it, according to the clay tablets found by archeologists, about a thousand years before the God of Abraham showed up and took the credit. When Abraham left the Valley of Ur, which was the location of ancient Sumaria, he brought with him the creation myths of his previous culture but dropped the female deity to reflect the now male dominant culture. The Sumarian culture, which predated the Babalonians, had written language long before the Heberew people and peserved their writings on clay and stone, much more persitant media than paper, leather, or the oral history practiced by the Hebrew people until the days of Moses.


We cannot have a world with no rules and no consequences for breaking those rules. Imagine what this world would be like if there weren't. I believe we would have destroyed ourselves long ago without any help from God.

The consequences for not obeying God and living according to His will are hard because we are a very hard hearted people. He created us and gave us everything and we thank Him by turning our backs on Him and worshiping the things of this world. We humans have been responsible for many more deaths on this planet than God because of greed, ego, pride, stubborness, etc. etc.

Now why do you suppose God created such hard hearted people? You would think He could have planned better. If you want to see people who did a better job, look at some of the indiginous cultures around the world who have lived in much better harmony with their surroundings. Oddly enough none of these were cultures that followed the teachings of the Hebrew god or his son.

The Bible has actually been used to justify the rape and plunder of the earth. The belief that God gave the earth to his followers to do with as they please has given them permission to drive others from their homelands and exploit their resources. I have Bible believing relatives who view the environmental movement as Satanic and firmly believe that taking this land away from the Indians was ordained by God. "They weren't using it," one of them explained. 'Using' in this instance means exploiting its resources.



145,000,000 abortions to date, and that's just the ones we know of. And a lot of you will say that it's a fetus not a human when the child is aborted.

2 Millions diing from STDs
3 Millions of babies having babies
4 Millions of children growing up with only one parent

So if your goddess were real she would be responsible for all of this.

Well, then, since this is happening in what some like to call a Christian country, then I guess Jesus must be responsible. It would be interesting to see the difference in a goddess worshiping culture where women have more power and are not put at a disadvantage for having babies.

In matrilineal cultures of goddess worshipers, there is no concept of "illegitimate birth." Power and property are passed from mother to daughter. Status for women is not determined by marriage. Legitimacy of birth is not granted by being blessed with having your father married to your mother.

The concepts of the sancitity of virginity and chastity were invented in patrilineal cultures for the purposes of preserving male power, as power and property are to be passed from father to son. In order to insure that one knows who one's sons are, the female reproductive process must be controlled by men. Thus what is promoted as a spiritual ideal is in reality a method for ensuring a very materialistic end. It's all about money and power.

As for abortion, it was in common use in Jesus time and he mentions it not once. As a Jew he would not as Jews considered abortion the perogitive of the mother and still do. It did not become an issue in Christianity until after the plague when the Roman Catholic church forbade all forms of birth control to encourage the repopulation of Eruope.

Abortion did not become of interest in the prostestant faiths until late in the 1970s when the Republican party used it as part of their "family values" campaign to enroll the formerly Democratic conservative Christians into switching parties. Considering that one of the more conservative of the protestant faiths, the Southern Baptists, had three times voted to support the legalization of abortion it is obvious that this was not an issue they opposed. Prior to it being outlawed at the request of the obstetricians in the late 1800s, many protestant church publications carried advertizing for abortionists.


People invent false gods and goddesses to align with their own desires. People who want to be able to justfy having sex with anyone they want regardless of the risk, (Sounds pretty stubborn to me) come up with a god or goddess that says it's OK. My God says it's not OK because He knew the risks. Kind of reminds me of a parent who loves and cares about a child by saying no when they know what the child is asking for is dangerous. So there for if your goddess were real and she says it's OK to sleep with who ever you want knowing the risks, isn't loving you is she?

Oh and by the way God did not destroy mankind because a few were acting improperly. All were corrupt.

Genesis 6:5

The LORD saw how great man's wickedness on the earth had become, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all the time.

The Hebrew people invented a god to suit their needs. However, they were not particularly unique. Once again, they tell a story borrowed from an earlier time and earlier gods. In this instance it is from the Legend of Gillgamesh which predates the Bible. However, the gods of ancient Sumaria which brought about the flood had a different agenda. Over population and the noisiness of humans was their reason for ending mankind. The Hebrew god had to have a better reason, so he declared that all were corrupt. Is this plageristic god to be believed?

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Only one was living according to God's will and that was Noah

[metimeesthetics]

from dw41552
To answer your question, yes my God is thousands of times better than your goddess, because your goddess is not real. Your goddess could not have done those things because she does not exist.
:kneel:
This belief that one "god" (or "goddess") is better than another is the fundamental problem in our world. This belief has caused more war and more genocide than almost anything else in human history.

This statement and belief sickens me.

I usually try to keep my personal agenda off these pages, but I m going to break my own rule here, since you so vigorously vomited out your intolerance and closed-mindedness.

If you want to preach about abortion... start a new thread. Abortion has nothing to do with homosexuality and the Bible.

Pro-child, Pro-family, Pro-choice!

[Zeno Swijtink]

Goddess worship predated God worship. Gods are Johnny-come-latelies on the deity scene.

goddess-talk is equally in need of justification as god-talk. What's the story?? We are in this all together, men and women.

The question as I see it is: What ethical thought does this god/dess bring to the table? Is it up to the challenges humans are faced with in this era: overpopulation, poverty/bloat, climate pressures, and all that?

[phooph]

goddess-talk is equally in need of justification as god-talk. What's the story?? We are in this all together, men and women.

The question as I see it is: What ethical thought does this god/dess bring to the table? Is it up to the challenges humans are faced with in this era: overpopulation, poverty/bloat, climate pressures, and all that?

People have a tendency to anthropomorphize their deities and giving them gender identity is basic to this practice. In truth gender is unnecessary to a non-corporeal being as gender is only useful for sexual reproduction. Deities have no need for anything so mundane. This is an example of creating god/goddess in one's own image. It makes it easier for people to relate to them. Same for making gods out of teachers/prophets. If they are human-like they are easier to understand. However, the absolute is beyond the understanding of mere humans.

The concept of deity as loving parent to look after us is also a humanizing of the non-human. It is not the agenda of such a being to look after us but it creates the stage on which we play. It is up to us to do what we will with what is available.

It might be of interest to understand some of the research that has gone into the study of the power of prayer. A series of studies have been done using the scientific method, double blind studies, etc. The result is that there is an observable effect. This has been applied to plants, animals, and people, and prayer has a measurable effect on the entities prayed for. What is of additional interest is that it does not seem to matter what god/goddess is prayed to or even if the pray-er believes in such a being, those who are prayed for do better than the control group that are not prayed for.

In one of the most astounding experiments created by someone trying to make the experiment as least likely to succeed as possible, a doctor selected two groups of people who were hospitalized and half were prayed for and half were not. The prayed for group recovered faster than the un-prayed for group and had fewer complications and recurrences of health problems after they were released. What the doctor didn't reveal until after the experiment was over and the results were recorded was that the patients had all been in the hospital 15 years earlier than the experiment was conducted. This seems to support the assertion by physicists that time is not linear although we experience it as such, and prayer operates out of the normal linear model we seem to operate within.

What seems to be operating here is the intention of the people doing the praying. The power of the prayer does not so much eminate from the intervention of a divine being but of those who are intending a good outcome for the target of the prayer.

The universe is a much stranger place than most people imagine.

[Zeno Swijtink]

In one of the most astounding experiments created by someone trying to make the experiment as least likely to succeed as possible

This needs a reference ... to give it a bit more credence then an urban myth.

[phooph]

https://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/327/7429/1465


This needs a reference ... to give it a bit more credence then an urban myth.

[Zeno Swijtink]

https://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/327/7429/1465

Thank you. I saw that another article in BMJ points out the methodological problems and weaknesses of these studies:

https://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/329/7480/1444

Interesting to note that if something like retroactive prayer is effective, then it is ineffective: nothing forbids us to pray in the future for the patients in the control groups of these studies!

In other words, the methodology of randomized, double blind studies and of the customary statistical interpretations based on these designs is incompatible with the causal structure of space-time as toyed with in the Olshansky and Dossey article you refer to.

[Zeno Swijtink]

Oh and by the way God did not destroy mankind because a few were acting improperly. All were corrupt.

Genesis 6:5
The LORD saw how great man's wickedness on the earth had become, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all the time.

Only one was living according to God's will and that was Noah


The Flood story is another instance where the God of the Christians acted incredibly cruel.

Just because people were wicked he destroys almost all animals too! What a stench it must have been after the waters receded.

There is also no attention in the Bible for living lightly on the Earth. As an ethical system it is at best incomplete.

[Hot Compost]

God this thread has some staying power. all this creative work
for Homosexuality & the Bible.

I'm an admirer ofHarvey Fierstein. I would love to see a Harvey
Fierstein version of the Bible, a Gay Bible. I think he could do a
hilarious job.

I do somewhat object to the appropriation of the word "gay" by
the homosexual right movement. Remember, gay used to have
another meaning, like, just, GAY. There are no good replacement
words. "with alacrity" just doesn't do it.