Homosexuality and the Bible [Archive]

dubwise

08-16-2006, 05:35 PM

Conservative "Christians" calling for death of anyone is just plain stupid. I talk to Jesus all the time and he tells me he HATES Christians, especially the conservative ones. "F'ing Idiots!" (his words, not mine).

This reminds me of one of my favorites, an email to Dr. Laura:

Dear Dr. Laura:

Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have learned a great deal from your radio show, and I try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate.

I do need some advise from you, however, regarding some of the specific Bible laws and how to follow them.

a) When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord (Lev. 1:9). The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

b) I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her? She's 18 and starting University. Will the slave buyer continue to pay for her education by law?

c) Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? ....Why can't I own Canadians?

d) I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself, or should this be a neighborhood improvement project ?

e) Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here? Would contact lenses help ?

f) Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev.19:27. How should they die?

g) My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev. 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? (Lev.24:10-16) Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)

If you really want to get pissed off, go here:
https://www.godhatesfags.com/

That's the home page for the Westboro Baptist Church, Pastor Fred Phelps.
Sick bastard.

lagallinaazul

08-18-2006, 07:14 AM

Why?

I recently watched the movie, "The God Who Wasn’t There." At one point, the following statement came on the screen: "If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act. They must be put to death." Leviticus 18:22.<O></O> When I went to several bibles (Leviticus 182:2) and I found a different statement. This is what is what I found: You shall not lie with a male as with a woman. It is an abomination. (Hotel Copy - The Gideon Bible) You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination. (New American Standard Bible 1960 to 1973) Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is an abomination (Holy Bible King James Version 1985)<O></O>

Except for some small grammar changes, none of them have the statement that homosexuals must be “put to death.” I have heard that some radical right wing evangelists have made statements that homosexuals should be killed.

Does anyone know a Bible version of Leviticus with the “put to death” statement? Is it in some version of the Bible, Torah, or the Koran?

Edward

Cleansing Ministries

12-16-2006, 04:39 AM

In early Bible times anyone who committed a detestable act was killed. Prostitutes were stoned to death. Hands of thieves were cut off or maybe they were crucified. The death sentence was in full force. So the movie quoted the verse then stated what was implied. It was a sign of the times. Jesus came to save the lost and stopped stoning of prostitutes. He then told the religious law followers if they truely were without sin to throw the first stone. None could. There is none without sin, no not one. God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to salvation.

Society has changed. American society is appalled even if a serial murderer is sentenced to death.

Clancy

12-16-2006, 02:00 PM

The bible also says you should beat your uppity slaves.

Valley Oak

12-16-2006, 07:26 PM

Dear "Cleansing Ministries,"

You state in your post:
"Society has changed. American society is appalled even if a serial murderer is sentenced to death."

If so, then why do 37 states in the US still have the death penalty? Please check the Wikipedia link below:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Death_penalty_statutes_in_the_United_States.svg

In early Bible times anyone who committed a detestable act was killed. Prostitutes were stoned to death. Hands of thieves were cut off or maybe they were crucified. The death sentence was in full force. So the movie quoted the verse then stated what was implied. It was a sign of the times. Jesus came to save the lost and stopped stoning of prostitutes. He then told the religious law followers if they truely were without sin to throw the first stone. None could. There is none without sin, no not one. God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to salvation.

Society has changed. American society is appalled even if a serial murderer is sentenced to death.

Cleansing Ministries

12-17-2006, 01:02 PM

Wikipedia's data is since 1976. A lot of things have change in the last 30 years. Just because laws are still in the books it does not mean they are enforced or still the opinion of society.

Dear "Cleansing Ministries,"

You state in your post:
"Society has changed. American society is appalled even if a serial murderer is sentenced to death."

If so, then why do 37 states in the US still have the death penalty? Please check the Wikipedia link below:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Death_penalty_statutes_in_the_United_States.svg

mykil

01-02-2007, 10:15 PM

Does anyone ever pay attention to the bible anymore? Does anyone realize there are something like 300 references to adultery with a man and women and only about a dozen with homo's?<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>

<o:p></o:p>

dubwise

01-03-2007, 07:28 AM

Are you kidding? Hundreds of thousands of Americans believe the Bible is the true word of God. There are quite a few of them living in Sonoma County.

Funny thing about Adultery. Republicans Congressmen seem to be spared the wrath of the "Christian" right when they bang someone other than their wives.

The blatant in-your-face hypocrisy of the "Christian" Right and Conservative Republicans on the whole makes me sick.

Does anyone ever pay attention to the bible anymore? Does anyone realize there are something like 300 references to adultery with a man and women and only about a dozen with homo's?<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>

<o:p></o:p>

lagallinaazul

01-06-2007, 08:55 PM

I am offended and tired of seeing "homosexuals should be killed?" in the subject/title line. Drop it. It would not be nearly as tolerated if it said "heterosexuals" for example. Please be respectful of humanity - your friends, family, and neighbors.

Sonomamark

01-19-2007, 07:19 PM

Pleae, sir/ma'am, consider calibrating your threshold for offense at considerably less sensitivity, increasingly your level of attention to detail in what you read, and setting your default response to something other than righteous indignation.

If you read the thread, you'll find that it is an inquiry into whether the homophobia expressed by christian fundamentalists is actually rooted in the bible or not. No one here has said that they find such homophobia acceptable.

The punctuation in the subject line makes it clear that the initiator of the thread is asking a question about the bible, not promoting a homophobic standpoint. You are in essence arguing that even to discuss the matter is a thought crime.

Please consider that a society in which one is not allowed to discuss anything that anyone may find offensive is one you probably don't want to live in.

I am offended and tired of seeing "homosexuals should be killed?" in the subject/title line. Drop it. It would not be nearly as tolerated if it said "heterosexuals" for example. Please be respectful of humanity - your friends, family, and neighbors.

AnneCatherine

01-21-2007, 09:20 AM

Wikipedia's data is since 1976. A lot of things have change in the last 30 years. Just because laws are still in the books it does not mean they are enforced or still the opinion of society.

Hmm...I'm not too sure about the comment that Americans are appalled by the death penatly - or words to that effect. Have you ever read the Public Comments for articles on murderers or child molesters at the online Press Democrat? Seems like there are quite a few people in this area who are all for the death penalty and not appalled one bit.

Valley Oak

01-24-2007, 11:36 AM

Anyone who is in favor of the death penalty should themselves be executed.

Hmm...I'm not too sure about the comment that Americans are appalled by the death penatly - or words to that effect. Have you ever read the Public Comments for articles on murderers or child molesters at the online Press Democrat? Seems like there are quite a few people in this area who are all for the death penalty and not appalled one bit.

psaltz

01-25-2007, 10:54 AM

Tee hee hee . . . this reminds me of a family gathering I was at once, where a 10-year-old boy was calling an 8-year-old boy names, and the 8-year-old responded, "People who call people names are faggots!"

Anyone who is in favor of the death penalty should themselves be executed.

lagallinaazul

01-25-2007, 03:15 PM

"To ask a question is to make it possible, at least in intent. Intent can cause all kinds of harm as it moves into action. To ask if any group should be killed, for any reason, is to present the possibility of such an action coming forward. People tend believe, exist and act in and from their individual subjective world of words, even though reality has no words. I can see that it may be difficult to see outside the world of words you live in, as it is for each of us, but maybe a more human intent subject line might be "heterosexuals and homosexuals should be loved" and then discuss why certain people hate and want other people killed, and how to not fall into those same hateful loops.

Again to present a possibility of love as a subject and then work to not hate or kill for any reason feels to me to be what is."
[email protected] (https://by128fd.bay128.hotmail.msn.com/cgi-bin/compose?mailto=1&msg=2481B0EE-156D-480E-A3E8-880F69119631&start=0&len=13988&src=&type=x&[email protected]&cc=&bcc=&subject=&body=&curmbox=00000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000001&a=2c51299bb3441af2e6e7054ff836aabc957428be45ff89695ce01b210e016913) (please respond to this email)

Valley Oak

01-25-2007, 06:29 PM

Dear Blue Rooster,

I am the original thread starter of this topic. My original intent was to clarify and debate the fact (I since then discovered) that the bible does indeed clearly state that homosexuality will be punished by going to hell. When I first sent my thread-starting post I wasn't sure and was hoping that someone more knowledgable than I would step forward with the quotes and different buybull versions that assert this christian death penalty for homosexuals.

I for one, being bisexual, find it appaling that any group, christian, religious, political party, or otherwise, advocate or assert in any way that an entire group of people be executed, banished, sent to hell, etc, simply because of their sexual orientation. It is backwards, bizarre, barbaric, and brutal.

Unfortunately, we still live in a very intolerant society that, based on purely religious reasons, still condems homosexuals, and has a president that has already declared publicly that he will support an amendment to the Constitution that prohibits same sex marriage. That is a very small minded "leader" for a very small minded public, which after all was the one who elected him two times to be its maximum representative. What a pathetic shame on the american people. How sad and how tragic.

Edward

"To ask a question is to make it possible, at least in intent. Intent can cause all kinds of harm as it moves into action. To ask if any group should be killed, for any reason, is to present the possibility of such an action coming forward. People tend believe, exist and act in and from their individual subjective world of words, even though reality has no words. I can see that it may be difficult to see outside the world of words you live in, as it is for each of us, but maybe a more human intent subject line might be "heterosexuals and homosexuals should be loved" and then discuss why certain people hate and want other people killed, and how to not fall into those same hateful loops.

Again to present a possibility of love as a subject and then work to not hate or kill for any reason feels to me to be what is."
[email protected] (https://by128fd.bay128.hotmail.msn.com/cgi-bin/compose?mailto=1&msg=2481B0EE-156D-480E-A3E8-880F69119631&start=0&len=13988&src=&type=x&[email protected]&cc=&bcc=&subject=&body=&curmbox=00000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000001&a=2c51299bb3441af2e6e7054ff836aabc957428be45ff89695ce01b210e016913) (please respond to this email)

dubwise

01-26-2007, 06:38 AM

Hi Roble,

Well, since you are bisexual only half of you is condemed to hell. Probably the Left half. :):

We need to get past the "I can't believe the Christian Right is blah blah blah" The fact is they are here and they're very political. While they are still in the minority they are growing in power. What's more disturbing is that within the Christian Right there is another group that is even more extreme. Google "Christian Dominionists" if you really want to be frightened. I call them "TheoNazis".

If the majority of Rational Americans continue to do nothing about the growth of such hateful groups, they will continue to grow and could quite possibily come into power. It's not that far of a stretch from George Bush.

There is nothing more dangerous than the politicalization of religious beliefs.

D.

p.s. - Liberals - Learn to shoot!

Dear Blue Rooster,

I am the original thread starter of this topic. My original intent was to clarify and debate the fact (I since then discovered) that the bible does indeed clearly state that homosexuality will be punished by going to hell. When I first sent my thread-starting post I wasn't sure and was hoping that someone more knowledgable than I would step forward with the quotes and different buybull versions that assert this christian death penalty for homosexuals.

I for one, being bisexual, find it appaling that any group, christian, religious, political party, or otherwise, advocate or assert in any way that an entire group of people be executed, banished, sent to hell, etc, simply because of their sexual orientation. It is backwards, bizarre, barbaric, and brutal.

Unfortunately, we still live in a very intolerant society that, based on purely religious reasons, still condems homosexuals, and has a president that has already declared publicly that he will support an amendment to the Constitution that prohibits same sex marriage. That is a very small minded "leader" for a very small minded public, which after all was the one who elected him two times to be its maximum representative. What a pathetic shame on the american people. How sad and how tragic.

Edward

tomcat

01-26-2007, 10:04 AM

Hummm... Does that make you "in favor of the death penalty"? Careful, the thought police might come after you! ...or maybe the 'Precrime Unit' from Minority Report.
Tom

Anyone who is in favor of the death penalty should themselves be executed.

Juggledude

01-26-2007, 05:02 PM

Use of the word should is uncomfortable to me, in that it implies an imposition or projection of one person's morals or beliefs onto another. This becomes increasingly dangerous when these shoulds enter the political arena, and become upheld by force of law and might. In contrast, there are certian sociopathic elements of society who need to be told they should not rape, murder, steal, etc. I liked the concept of a world of words being separate from a world of reality, or in my speak, a world of love, though there seems to be ample evidence that we deal with both, in an ever shifting dynamic. To think locally, and act globally, I choose to avoid the word should, replacing it in my personal thoughtspace and reality with the word could. This simple semantic excercise has opened grand new vistas of possibility for me.

"Do as you will, An it harm none"

Royce

Valley Oak

01-28-2008, 11:52 AM

Thank you, Royce!

Edward

Use of the word should is uncomfortable to me, in that it implies an imposition or projection of one person's morals or beliefs onto another. This becomes increasingly dangerous when these shoulds enter the political arena, and become upheld by force of law and might. In contrast, there are certian sociopathic elements of society who need to be told they should not rape, murder, steal, etc. I liked the concept of a world of words being separate from a world of reality, or in my speak, a world of love, though there seems to be ample evidence that we deal with both, in an ever shifting dynamic. To think locally, and act globally, I choose to avoid the word should, replacing it in my personal thoughtspace and reality with the word could. This simple semantic excercise has opened grand new vistas of possibility for me.

"Do as you will, An it harm none"

Royce

Frederick M. Dolan

01-28-2008, 01:23 PM

Juggledude

01-28-2008, 02:28 PM

It was Jesus who amended that text? And here I always thought it was the homocentric oligarchical power hungry manipulators....

Oh, wait, they are just a myth... my bad.

The punishments are from the Old Testament, are they not? It seems wrong then to characterize them as Christian, given Jesus's amendment of that text.

Juggledude

01-28-2008, 02:30 PM

Edward,

You are most welcome...

and you missed the anniversary of this post by two whole days!

aaah, to have time on ones hands must be a luxury beyond compare... I'm not even able to keep up with my daily digest, let alone read the archives..

I guess it's just a matter of priorities. I honor, envy, and admire yours.

Royce

Thank you, Royce!

Edward

phadyd

01-29-2008, 04:23 AM

It amazes me that this discussion is still going, but I would like to add that there are thousands of different versions of the bible, and hundreds of different translations, many of the original * stories * in these bibles are in languages that are long dead and the inflection of there time lost to us forever (except in the case of say perhaps in the future we come across viable time travel).
We are all at the mercy of the people who translated these texts and there * feelings * of what the true meaning of some words are. At the back of all the bibles I have ever read It says something like..."woe is the man who ever attempts to change or alter these words he will rot in eternal damnation blah blah blah" Yet we have how many different versions? shoot! the new testament alone just went and dumped some 62 stories from the bible as untruths????
Anyways I am not going to go on and on and blind you all with an endless wall of text, though I must say that this is a subject that has always bothered me, how the likes of men will bend truths to there own gain or to rally others around them to protect them from there own fears or insecurities.
This I believe is the real issue, and also I must say that I believe religion to be for the week, who have no faith and need someone else to tell them how to act or to give them an out when they know they have wronged. Spirituality comes from the heart, listen to it and you will have all your answers.

dw41552

12-16-2008, 02:37 AM

People allow me to explain a few things. First no one is born a homosexual. There is no such thing as a homosexual gene. It is simply a lifestyle choice.
God created man and woman and gave us this world to be fruitful and multiply. It was His intension that a man and woman fall in love get married and have children to populate the earth. A married couple who are loyal to each other and do their best to live according to God's will have nothing to fear. They're not going to die from a STD, they're not raising children as a single parent, they're not killing innocent babies by having abortions, their children aren't wondering why they never see dad, they don't have to worry about going to hell etc. etc. It's when we turn our backs on God and live outside of his will that things go bad, and I'll give you some examples
1 Millions dying from STDs such as AIDS
2 45,000,000 abortions to date that we know of.
3 Millions of broken families
4 Babies having babies
5 Millions of single moms trying to keep their head above water while raising kids on their own
6 Millions of kids who don't even know their dad.
All this for an orgasm. Now how selfish is that.

You people say we Christians hate homosexuals. That's not true. Them we love. It's their lifestyle that we hate. But we also feel the same way about heterosexuals who engage in premarital sex, or drug users, Alcoholics, murderers, robbers, child abusers, and the list goes on. These are all life style choices outside of God's will. It's all called sin. We are all born with an evil,
rebellious, stubborn nature. To believe it all you have to do is look at children. We parents spend all their childhood trying to teach them to be good moral people who can contribute to society in a positive way. We don't have to teach them to be bad. It comes natural. One of the first things they do is lie. How did they learn to do that. They didn't because it was already in them.

This may sound crazy but I believe evil unfortunately is necessary to weed out the good from the bad. You see God created us to be companions. But He only wants us to be with Him if it is our choice. He doesn't want a bunch of robots. And He will never force Himself on you. He may call you, but it's up to you whether you answer or not.

Here's how it works. God created us and gave us this world to use according to His will so we could have a good life. But, at the same time He also gave us the choice whether or not to follow His will. He gave us a set of rules, (The ten commandments) to follow. Man has been rebelling ever since. He destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah, and finally almost all life on the planet because man became so evil. He gave man another chance. God said
I establish my covenant with you: Never again will all life be cut off by the waters of a flood; never again will there be a flood to destroy the earth."

So man multiplied, and once again began to rebel and go back to his evil ways, so God came down to earth as a man, Jesus, to suffer and die for our sins so that we may be saved from ourselves, because it is impossible for us not to sin. Go ahead. Try to be perfect for one week, or one day for that matter.

Here's the good part. Hell is real I assure you, but to keep from going there all we have to do is believe that Jesus is real, that He died for our sins, admit we are sinners, ask for His forgiveness for all our past sins no matter what they are, and invite Him into our lives so that He may help us do our best to live according to God's will. It's called living by faith. This is the kind of people God wants as companions and this is the kind of people who will make it to Heaven which is also real, where life will be such a joy that our puny little minds as they are couldn't possibly imagine how great life with God is going to be.

God created each and every one of us, and he gave us this world and everything in it. So I don't think trying our best to live according to His will is asking to much in return.

We Christians have the same sinful nature as everyone else. We are no better than anyone. We don't hate anyone, for that would make us hypocrites. The most important commands that God has given us is to love Him with all our heart, soul, strength, and mind, and to love others as we love ourselves. It's hard for me to understand why so many people refuse to believe yet will agree that following these two simple comands would turn this planet into a paradise.

I apologize for those Christians who give you the impression that they hate you. A true Christian hates no one and judges no one. It is the evil and the consequences of it that we hate and judge. It is our purpose to share the truth with as many people as we can and lead them down the right path with us.

Any kind of sex outside of marriage, (1 man and 1 woman) is sin. God said it himself many times in the Bible, the word of God. We Christians didn't say it. We just agree with Him.

We don't base anything on religious reasons. We base everything on Gods word. And barbaric is a bunch of homosexuals wanting to force two of God's male angels out into the streets of Sodom so they could have sex with them. The harder we fight God's will the more evil we become.

What God offers you and I is a hundred times better than any kind of sexual gratification you will ever experience. Do you really want to turn down an eternity of bliss for a few years of fulfilling your own selfish desires, which can destroy you in more ways than one. If I'm right and you continue living life your way without any regaurd to what God has done for you, yes you will end up in hell. Hey, sorry I didn't make the rules, I just try my best to follow them, and I'm just trying to convince you and others to do the same.

If I step out in faith and nothing I've said is true I lose nothing
If I don't step out in faith and everything I've said is true I lose everything

Dear Blue Rooster,

I am the original thread starter of this topic. My original intent was to clarify and debate the fact (I since then discovered) that the bible does indeed clearly state that homosexuality will be punished by going to hell. When I first sent my thread-starting post I wasn't sure and was hoping that someone more knowledgable than I would step forward with the quotes and different buybull versions that assert this christian death penalty for homosexuals.

I for one, being bisexual, find it appaling that any group, christian, religious, political party, or otherwise, advocate or assert in any way that an entire group of people be executed, banished, sent to hell, etc, simply because of their sexual orientation. It is backwards, bizarre, barbaric, and brutal.

Unfortunately, we still live in a very intolerant society that, based on purely religious reasons, still condems homosexuals, and has a president that has already declared publicly that he will support an amendment to the Constitution that prohibits same sex marriage. That is a very small minded "leader" for a very small minded public, which after all was the one who elected him two times to be its maximum representative. What a pathetic shame on the american people. How sad and how tragic.

Edward

MsTerry

12-16-2008, 09:17 AM

This is the kind of people God wants as companions and this is the kind of people who will make it to Heaven which is also real, where life will be such a joy that our puny little minds as they are couldn't possibly imagine how great life with God is going to be.

Can you give us a list of people that you know for sure are in Heaven?
I don't want to mix with the wrong crowd.

dw41552

12-16-2008, 12:23 PM

Yes I can. And if I gave you some names, would that open your mind? Would you then Believe? If yes, I would be glad to share many names of people who I know are in heaven. If no, then I would be wasting my time, right?

I've shared with you what I know in my heart to be the truth. It's up to you to either except it or reject it. Either way I see no need to make fun of you or belittle you. That's not our way. My response is to pray for you because I wish nothing but the best for you, and I mean that with all me heart.

God bless

Can you give us a list of people that you know for sure are in Heaven?
I don't want to mix with the wrong crowd.

Hot Compost

12-16-2008, 05:51 PM

Does anyone know a Bible version of Leviticus with the put to deathstatement? Is it in some version of the Bible, Torah, or the Koran?

Nope. Don't know. Thank God :):

I think the current versions of the Bible and the interpretations of many American Christians are far, far, far away from what the person named Jesus, if he existed, practiced.

The Bible & Christianity seem like a Rohrschach test, of sorts. A church that suggests it's OK to hate gay people attracts people who feel most comfortable in that environment of that church.

In San Diego, a very military town with a lot of Christians, I accepted a friend from the gym's invitation to a wealthy church in Rancho Santa Fe. They practice the "if you want to go to Heaven, you have to accept Jesus Christ as your Savior, and your Works (daily behavior) are secondary" type of Christianity. Well, this is very appealing to a business community that is anti-labor, and a base of retired military people, many of whom killed civilians in Vietnam or Iraq as part of their profession.

So you end up with something similar to hypnosis, people walking around telling themselves, "I am forgiven, I will go to Heaven, I need to lay off 10% of my staff next week & will give myself a 20% raise, Pastor Bob says to 'Love God' " ... which taken together seems like a near-delusional state to me.

And, of course, this "religious practice" occurs in a church subculture where "marriage is between a man and a woman".

+ Harry Potter is bad, secular humanist Europe is bad, and on and on.

The propaganda is quite interesting. If someone wants a listen,
https://www.horizon.org/

then the 'Archives' Link.

I was particularly fascinated by the political content. Pastor Bob repeats himself - if you want to go to Heaven, you must support Israel, and the bible calls for an un-divided Israel.

This is in front of a very wealthy, highly educated group that like to hear what Pastor Bob says - it makes them feel good. And, there's a social aspect - people go to meet other people who are single wealthy "Christians".

To me they are fake Christians, so I use the term in quotes.

ChristineL

12-16-2008, 09:45 PM

If it's a life-style choice, would you tell us all about the thought process that led you to make the conscious choice to be heterosexual? Not to force yourself to live as if you are heterosexual, but the decision to be heterosexual.

People allow me to explain a few things. First no one is born a homosexual. There is no such thing as a homosexual gene. It is simply a lifestyle choice.
God created man and woman and gave us this world to be fruitful and multiply. It was His intension that a man and woman fall in love get married and have children to populate the earth. A married couple who are loyal to each other and do their best to live according to God's will have nothing to fear. They're not going to die from a STD, they're not raising children as a single parent, they're not killing innocent babies by having abortions, their children aren't wondering why they never see dad, they don't have to worry about going to hell etc. etc. It's when we turn our backs on God and live outside of his will that things go bad, and I'll give you some examples
1 Millions dying from STDs such as AIDS
2 45,000,000 abortions to date that we know of.
3 Millions of broken families
4 Babies having babies
5 Millions of single moms trying to keep their head above water while raising kids on their own
6 Millions of kids who don't even know their dad.
All this for an orgasm. Now how selfish is that.

You people say we Christians hate homosexuals. That's not true. Them we love. It's their lifestyle that we hate. But we also feel the same way about heterosexuals who engage in premarital sex, or drug users, Alcoholics, murderers, robbers, child abusers, and the list goes on. These are all life style choices outside of God's will. It's all called sin. We are all born with an evil,
rebellious, stubborn nature. To believe it all you have to do is look at children. We parents spend all their childhood trying to teach them to be good moral people who can contribute to society in a positive way. We don't have to teach them to be bad. It comes natural. One of the first things they do is lie. How did they learn to do that. They didn't because it was already in them.

This may sound crazy but I believe evil unfortunately is necessary to weed out the good from the bad. You see God created us to be companions. But He only wants us to be with Him if it is our choice. He doesn't want a bunch of robots. And He will never force Himself on you. He may call you, but it's up to you whether you answer or not.

Here's how it works. God created us and gave us this world to use according to His will so we could have a good life. But, at the same time He also gave us the choice whether or not to follow His will. He gave us a set of rules, (The ten commandments) to follow. Man has been rebelling ever since. He destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah, and finally almost all life on the planet because man became so evil. He gave man another chance. God said
I establish my covenant with you: Never again will all life be cut off by the waters of a flood; never again will there be a flood to destroy the earth."

So man multiplied, and once again began to rebel and go back to his evil ways, so God came down to earth as a man, Jesus, to suffer and die for our sins so that we may be saved from ourselves, because it is impossible for us not to sin. Go ahead. Try to be perfect for one week, or one day for that matter.

Here's the good part. Hell is real I assure you, but to keep from going there all we have to do is believe that Jesus is real, that He died for our sins, admit we are sinners, ask for His forgiveness for all our past sins no matter what they are, and invite Him into our lives so that He may help us do our best to live according to God's will. It's called living by faith. This is the kind of people God wants as companions and this is the kind of people who will make it to Heaven which is also real, where life will be such a joy that our puny little minds as they are couldn't possibly imagine how great life with God is going to be.

God created each and every one of us, and he gave us this world and everything in it. So I don't think trying our best to live according to His will is asking to much in return.

We Christians have the same sinful nature as everyone else. We are no better than anyone. We don't hate anyone, for that would make us hypocrites. The most important commands that God has given us is to love Him with all our heart, soul, strength, and mind, and to love others as we love ourselves. It's hard for me to understand why so many people refuse to believe yet will agree that following these two simple comands would turn this planet into a paradise.

I apologize for those Christians who give you the impression that they hate you. A true Christian hates no one and judges no one. It is the evil and the consequences of it that we hate and judge. It is our purpose to share the truth with as many people as we can and lead them down the right path with us.

Any kind of sex outside of marriage, (1 man and 1 woman) is sin. God said it himself many times in the Bible, the word of God. We Christians didn't say it. We just agree with Him.

We don't base anything on religious reasons. We base everything on Gods word. And barbaric is a bunch of homosexuals wanting to force two of God's male angels out into the streets of Sodom so they could have sex with them. The harder we fight God's will the more evil we become.

What God offers you and I is a hundred times better than any kind of sexual gratification you will ever experience. Do you really want to turn down an eternity of bliss for a few years of fulfilling your own selfish desires, which can destroy you in more ways than one. If I'm right and you continue living life your way without any regaurd to what God has done for you, yes you will end up in hell. Hey, sorry I didn't make the rules, I just try my best to follow them, and I'm just trying to convince you and others to do the same.

If I step out in faith and nothing I've said is true I lose nothing
If I don't step out in faith and everything I've said is true I lose everything

Sylph

12-16-2008, 10:20 PM

How could God be so cruel as to make people gay and then decree that having a love life is a mortal sin for them?

From a Stanford Geneticist on whether being gay is a choice:
December 22, 2008

First off, almost all of the data shows that being gay is not a choice. Most people discover they are gay rather than choosing it. As such, it is very difficult to “convert” to heterosexuality. It requires going against who you are.

I have seen no reliable data on the conversion of homosexuals. Or on how well it works, how happy the recently “converted” are, how long they stay “converted”, or any other statistics. There is some anecdotal data—things like it worked for me, it can work for you. But nothing that would make it into a scientific journal.

Because of this, I can’t evaluate the therapy scientifically. But even proponents say the success rate is pretty low—it doesn’t work that often.

One reason why conversion might be so difficult is that the brains of gays may be different from their straight counterparts. For example, a couple of studies have been done that show that the brains of gay people are different than those of straight people. And that gay people respond to pheromones differently than straight people.

This isn’t surprising, sexual attraction resides in the brain. But where do these changes come from? Are they destined by genes, is it something in the environment or a combination of the two?

The best evidence points to the environment and genes both playing a role.

To try to sort out environment and genes, scientists often do a twin study. In a twin study, identical twins are compared to fraternal twins. If something happens more often in identical twins, then that something is influenced by genes.

How does a twin study show something runs in a family? Remember, identical twins have exactly the same genes. Fraternal twins share only as many genes as any brother or sister.

Because twins are born at the same time, the environment is as same as possible for them. So if something happens more often in identical than in fraternal twins, then it is most likely because they share the same genes.

A number of studies have looked at homosexuality in twins, all with similar results. For example, in one study, if one identical twin was gay, the other was also gay 50% of the time. If they were fraternal twins, they were both gay 22% of the time. And if one was adopted, the chances fell to 11%.

Now these numbers are from one study. Other studies have different percentages but the same trend—identical twins are more likely to both be gay as compared to fraternal twins.

This strongly suggests that there is a genetic component—there is something in their genes that makes them more likely to be gay. Genetics, though, isn’t everything.

If it were, then identical twins would both be gay 100% of the time. And this clearly isn’t the case.

And if it were all environment, then identical twins would both be gay as often as fraternal twins. Again, this isn’t the situation.

So the interplay of environment and genes probably results in homosexuality. By environment, I don’t just mean how someone is raised (although that is sometimes part of it). I mean the effect the environment can have on how the brain is hardwired very early on.

In the womb, things happen that can affect how we develop. A surge of hormones here, a viral infection there, and we are not the same as we would be without these environmental factors.

Handedness is an example of this. Some people have genes that make them more likely to be left-handed. Not all of these folks end up lefties, though.

Something else has to happen while they are developing. Scientists haven’t pinpointed what this something is but it is the combination of genes and environment that makes someone left-handed.

Maybe something similar happens with gay people. And since the brain continues to develop after we’re born, the environment can affect how our brain develops even after we are born.

The key here, though, is that this all affects how our brains are hardwired. It isn’t a choice or something like that, a brain has been configured to be attracted to the same sex.

Is there any evidence of this happening? There is some evidence that increased steroids in the womb may increase the chances that a girl will be a lesbian. Some studies show that the more older brothers you have, the more likely it is for you to be gay. Also, gay people tend to be left handed much more often.

The animal evidence is also pretty strong that what happens in the womb can affect the eventual sexual orientation of the fetus. For example, exposure to differing amounts of testosterone or estrogen in the womb can affect whether an animal is hetero- or homosexual.

How would genes work in all of this? What genes would do is either make the fetus more or less sensitive to these hormones or, perhaps, affect how or whether the mother reacts.

So, for example, a surge of hormones may change one fetus’ brain but not another’s. Or the mother might respond to stress with more hormones causing a change whereas a different mother wouldn’t release as much hormone.

Whatever the cause, it is very unlikely that just one gene will cause someone to be gay, at least in people. But it is a different story in the fruit fly.

As we talk about at https://www.thetech.org/genetics/news.php?id=19, a single DNA mutation can turn a straight male fruit fly into a gay one. A similar mutation in a female fly makes her more interested in the girls than the boys.

As I said, though, it is pretty unlikely that anything so simple is happening in people. Something so complex most likely involves lots of genes.

So there you have it. Being gay is not being mentally ill (at least according to the American Psychiatric Association). There appear to be real changes in the brain that correlate with being gay. And from the twin studies, it looks like genes play a role.
by Dr. Barry Starr, Stanford University

https://www.thetech.org/genetics/ask.php?id=155

dw41552

12-17-2008, 12:09 AM

God does not make anyone gay. He is omnificent, omnipotent, and omniscient. In other words He is a perfect being, therefor incapable of making such a mistake. He created everything and everyone you see with your eyes and that which you cannot see. He created us as heterosexuals. He has never created one person as a homosexual. So therefor there can be no homosexual gene.

That is not to say that maybe homosexuality can come about as a predetermined behavior because of family background in some cases just as alcoholism, drug addictions. Are alcoholics born alcoholics, are drug addicts born drug addicts. Of course not. Regardless all have a choice whether to stop or continue.

Man is a stubborn beast with a huge ego. They don't like being told what to do or how to do it. They want to do everything their own way no matter the cost. Homosexuality, fornication, alcoholism, drug addiction etc. are all rebellious acts against God. Man has been doing it since day one. The more we rebel the worse this world gets. Homosexuals aren't converted because they don't want to be.

Here's a good example of just how stubborn and selfish we are. God tells us that our bodies are temples for his spirit to reside in so take care of it, and not to mention so we can stay healthy. Well 70% of people in the US reject His spirit. About 66% of Americans are overweight. In other words, "we don't need you God and we'll eat as much and whatever we want". Obese people don't lose weight because they don't want to. People won't stop drinking because they don't want to. People don't stop doing drugs because they don't want to. To be converted from homosexuality to heterosexuality they have to want It with all their heart. To lose weight you have to want it with all your heart. To have victory over alcoholism or drug addiction you have to want it with all your heart.

I've Battled with weight for the last 20 years. I can't count the amount of diets I've been on. One day not to long ago God helped me figure it out. Every diet I tried was useless because I really didn't want to give up the food. I was being selfish instead of doing God's will. I was not thinking of what it would do to my son and the rest of my family if I passed away, and I was almost there believe me. I finally got to the point where I want to lose weight and get healthy with all of my heart, and it's working.

So you see maybe in a few cases a chemical imbalance or a couple of crossed wires in the brain could be the cause, but the majority is just plain down right rebellion against God and His authority. And yes He has the authority to set the rules on how we need to live. After all He created us and gave us everything we have so we owe it to Him to do our best to live according to His will. That doesn't mean we can't enjoy life.

Oh, and having a sexual relationship outside of marriage whether you're gay or not is a sin.

God Bless

dw41552

12-17-2008, 12:49 AM

ChristineL

12-17-2008, 02:52 AM

You were born heterosexual, hence you never questioned it...speak for yourself. Everyone is not born heterosexual, any more than everyone is born white...

Many people are biologically sterile, they can't have children. Does that mean God doesn't want them to marry? By your reasoning, they obviously shouldn't have any kind of treatment for their sterility as God obviously is not ok with their having children.

Hey Christine

I cannot because God created me to be heterosexual as he did you and every human born on this planet. I never felt a need to question my heterosexuality, and I've never had a desire to be anything but that.

Look if God was OK with homosexuality don't you think He would have set it up so two men or two women could some how have children together as a married man and woman can?

Wow! How confusing would that be? :):

God Bless

podfish

12-17-2008, 08:52 AM

Letters like this give me pause. In general, I'm in favor of anything that civilizes people, and the principals of most religions urge people to behave in ways I think are admirable. I'm glad so many people put thought and energy into trying to be 'good' and trying to live up to higher ideals. But when it is expressed like this, where someone feels capable of "explaining a few things" about not only what God wants and is like, but about what people are really like - in fact, about what reality itself is - I start seeing the seeds of oppression. When people 'know' things like you explain below, especially when there's no way in hell to ensure that such knowledge is based on anything real, they often take actions based on those ideas that have real consequences for other people. It makes me question my tendency to respect those with strong religious beliefs.

People allow me to explain a few things. First no one is born a homosexual. There is no such thing as a homosexual gene. It is simply a lifestyle choice.
God created man and woman and gave us this world to be fruitful and multiply. It was His intension that a man and woman fall in love get married and have children to populate the earth. ....
God created each and every one of us, and he gave us this world and everything in it. So I don't think trying our best to live according to His will is asking to much in return.
.....

If I step out in faith and nothing I've said is true I lose nothing
If I don't step out in faith and everything I've said is true I lose everything

Photoguy

12-17-2008, 09:25 AM

<code>https://www.venganza.org/wp-content/uploads/2007/12/proud.jpg (https://www.venganza.org)
</code>Well apparently even those whose brains still closely resemble their ape ancestors can type. In multiple studies it is well documented that when mammals are in large populations "homosexual" relations develop, in other words homosexuality exists in nature not just in humans(assuming we are not part of nature, which I don't). Since you believe "God" created nature she must have created homosexuality.
As a Pastafarian I pray that you will be touched by his noodly appendage.

Hey Christine

I cannot because God created me to be heterosexual as he did you and every human born on this planet. I never felt a need to question my heterosexuality, and I've never had a desire to be anything but that.

Look if God was OK with homosexuality don't you think He would have set it up so two men or two women could some how have children together as a married man and woman can?

Wow! How confusing would that be? :):

God Bless

Sylph

12-17-2008, 10:51 AM

I
In multiple studies it is well documented that when mammals are in large populations "homosexual" relations develop, in other words homosexuality exists in nature not just in humans(assuming we are not part of nature, which I don't). Since you believe "God" created nature she must have created homosexuality.
I've got many questions about the myriad 'mistakes' by God...genetic defects, tubal pregnancies, type I diabetes....I guess the parents were guilty of some sin or selfish act. And who created smallpox, cholera, tapeworms and ticks?

I enjoyed this story of gay male penguins who desperately wanted to be fathers and turned out to be "the best parents in the zoo"!:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1094977/Gay-penguins-expelled-zoo-colony-stealing-eggs-given-look-following-animal-rights-protest.html
Gay penguins expelled from zoo colony for stealing eggs are given their own to look after following animal rights protest
A pair of gay penguins thrown out of their zoo colony for repeatedly stealing eggs have been given some of their own to look after following a protest by animal rights groups.
Last month the birds were segregated after they were caught placing stones at the feet of parents before waddling away with their eggs.
But angry visitors to Polar Land in Harbin, northern China, complained it wasn't fair to stop the couple from becoming surrogate fathers and urged zoo bosses to give them a chance.
Gay penguins expelled from zoo colony for stealing eggs are given their own to look after following animal rights protest
A pair of gay penguins thrown out of their zoo colony for repeatedly stealing eggs have been given some of their own to look after following a protest by animal rights groups.
Last month the birds were segregated after they were caught placing stones at the feet of parents before waddling away with their eggs.
But angry visitors to Polar Land in Harbin, northern China, complained it wasn't fair to stop the couple from becoming surrogate fathers and urged zoo bosses to give them a chance.

Who's the daddy? The segregated penguin couple, right, are seen here in their own enclosure quarreling with another male over stolen eggs
In response, zookeepers gave the pair two eggs laid by an inexperienced first-time mother.
'We decided to give them two eggs from another couple whose hatching ability had been poor and they've turned out to be the best parents in the whole zoo,' said one of the keepers.
'It's very encouraging and if this works out well we will try to arrange for them to become real parents themselves with artificial insemination.'

Franklin Johnson

12-17-2008, 12:20 PM

This is one of the most acute observations about religion that I have ever read (others have also). I very strongly recommend the book, 'Under the Banner of Heaven,' which analyzes this exact same phenomenon. It is outstanding, shocking, and revealing reading.

Franklin

Letters like this give me pause. In general, I'm in favor of anything that civilizes people, and the principals of most religions urge people to behave in ways I think are admirable. I'm glad so many people put thought and energy into trying to be 'good' and trying to live up to higher ideals. But when it is expressed like this, where someone feels capable of "explaining a few things" about not only what God wants and is like, but about what people are really like - in fact, about what reality itself is - I start seeing the seeds of oppression. When people 'know' things like you explain below, especially when there's no way in hell to ensure that such knowledge is based on anything real, they often take actions based on those ideas that have real consequences for other people. It makes me question my tendency to respect those with strong religious beliefs.

RichT

12-17-2008, 12:20 PM

I've shared with you what I know in my heart to be the truth.
It's called "faith" for good reason. Your bible is a hand selected group of ancient writings by fringe lunatics who would be institutionalized today. There is no empirical evidence to prove your beliefs. Religious fanatics are the root cause of most of the evil in out world. You may pray to your "god" all you want, but DO NOT force your misguided beliefs upon me!

a militant agnostic (forgive the plagiarism)

Franklin Johnson

12-17-2008, 12:26 PM

<code>https://www.venganza.org/wp-content/uploads/2007/12/proud.jpg (https://www.venganza.org/)</code>

Thank you! I am now a new convert, a new Pastafarian!

Franklin

<code>
</code>Well apparently even those whose brains still closely resemble their ape ancestors can type. In multiple studies it is well documented that when mammals are in large populations "homosexual" relations develop, in other words homosexuality exists in nature not just in humans(assuming we are not part of nature, which I don't). Since you believe "God" created nature she must have created homosexuality.
As a Pastafarian I pray that you will be touched by his noodly appendage.

Hot Compost

12-17-2008, 12:30 PM

Sylph

12-17-2008, 01:01 PM

On a blue Honda:
'Militant agnostic, I don't know and you don't either!' and
'I don't have a problem with God, it's his fan club I can't stand'

Here is an evolutionary reason for the persistence of homosexuality among us humans even though gay (men) don't have children together. I hadn't read this before...interesting.

Sexual Antagonism
A genetic theory of homosexuality.
By William Saletan Wednesday, June 25, 2008
Gay couples can't have biological kids together. So if homosexuality is genetic, why hasn't it died out?

A study published last week in PLoS One tackles the question. It starts with four curious patterns. First, male homosexuality occurs at a low but stable frequency in a wide range of societies. Second, the female relatives of gay men produce children at a higher rate than other women do. Third, among these female relatives, those related to the gay man's mother produce children at a higher rate than do those related to his father. Fourth, among the man's male relatives, homosexuality is more common in those related to his mother than in those related to his father.

Can genes account for these patterns? To find out, the authors posit several possible mechanisms and compute their effects over time. They conclude that only one theory fits the data. The theory is called "sexually antagonistic selection." It holds that a gene can be reproductively harmful to one sex as long as it's helpful to the other. The gene for male homosexuality persists because it promotes—and is passed down through—high rates of procreation among gay men's mothers, sisters, and aunts.

"You have all this antagonism against homosexuality because they say it's against nature because it doesn't lead to reproduction. We found out this is not true because homosexuality is just one of the consequences of strategies for making females more fecund."
https://www.slate.com/id/2194232/

Braggi

12-17-2008, 01:07 PM

erieber

12-17-2008, 03:04 PM

Could you explain something to me? I've often wondered why Jesus had to die for our sins. I mean, if God is all powerful, couldn't he just say "Hey y'all, you no longer are sinners"? Why do we have to continue thanking all the time for something we didn't ask for?

Just would like some clarification from someone who's enlightened.

So man multiplied, and once again began to rebel and go back to his evil ways, so God came down to earth as a man, Jesus, to suffer and die for our sins so that we may be saved from ourselves, because it is impossible for us not to sin. Go ahead. Try to be perfect for one week, or one day for that matter.

Zeno Swijtink

12-17-2008, 04:52 PM

Hey Christine

I cannot because God created me to be heterosexual as he did you and every human born on this planet. I never felt a need to question my heterosexuality, and I've never had a desire to be anything but that.

Look if God was OK with homosexuality don't you think He would have set it up so two men or two women could some how have children together as a married man and woman can?

Wow! How confusing would that be? :):

God Bless

Davaughn, you are right, God's basic scheme is the woman/man thing.

But there is Design behind homosexuality. Apparently, to make it more likely that for every man there is a woman, He created the "fraternal birth order effect:" it true that the more older full brothers or half brothers you have with the same mother the more likely it is that you are homosexual. (Apparently, each older brother increases the odds of being gay by 33%.)

It's a prenatal effect, not a social effect, it's not true for unrelated males one grew up with, or even half brothers with a different mother.

It's almost that He was thinking, oops getting too many men in that neighborhood, lets make it more likely that the next brother is not that interested in women.

So what He succeeded in designing is something close to "for every interested man there is a woman."

If you are interested in the details of this Design feature you can read all about it in:

Anthony F. Bogaert, Biological versus nonbiological older brothers and men’s sexual orientation, Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences of the United States of America, July 11, 2006, vol. 103, no. 28, pp. 10771–10774

https://www.pnas.org/content/103/28/10771.full.pdf

PS Do you think that the sex ratio (105 boys to 100 girls at birth) is a Design Flaw. In my congregation we disagree about this. Just as we disagree about whether Adam had a navel. What's your reading of the Scripture on this one?

Photoguy

12-17-2008, 07:14 PM

Welcome home my brother!
I am more specifically a Semoliniite, an offshoot branch that believes His Noodly Highness can be any sex she wants to be, 2 meatballs and appendages not withstanding.
:kneel:

<code>https://www.venganza.org/wp-content/uploads/2007/12/proud.jpg (https://www.venganza.org/)</code>

Thank you! I am now a new convert, a new Pastafarian!

Franklin

dw41552

12-17-2008, 07:43 PM

Hey RichT

Well let me apologize for twisting your arm and trying to force you to think my way. Who's misguided here? Are you telling me it's OK to state your opinion here but it's not OK for me to do so. Kind of one sided don't you think?

Sir my bible is the word of God, and it is my faith that gives me understanding when I read it, I don't care which version It is. If it's not from God, I know. And my beliefs come from God so I know with all my heart they are real and true.

God bless

It's called "faith" for good reason. Your bible is a hand selected group of ancient writings by fringe lunatics who would be institutionalized today. There is no empirical evidence to prove your beliefs. Religious fanatics are the root cause of most of the evil in out world. You may pray to your "god" all you want, but DO NOT force your misguided beliefs upon me!

a militant agnostic (forgive the plagiarism)

dw41552

12-17-2008, 08:26 PM

Hey Zeno

That's a cool name you chose there!

First of all I am the oldest of 5 children, me, two brothers, and two sisters, in that order, with the same mother. And I assure you none of us are homosexuals or have ever felt drawn towards the life style what so ever. My yougest brother With the 66% chance, would be the least likey of all of us to swing that way. Plus I have a cousin who is gay. He has an older sister and two younger brothers and he is the only one who is gay. He and I were buds when we were kids and I assure you he was not gay then. So this kind of shoots some holes in the theory you've shared with me.

Second, God doesn't do oops. Oops represents imperfection. Being a perfect Being, that would be impossible.

I don't think 105 boys to 100 girls means anything. That # more than likely changes from year to year. No one could ever really know the exact count. There's too many variables. But just for the sake of argument let's say those Numbers are correct. Could it be that women live longer than men. Or maybe because way more men are killed in war that women. I wouldn't make to much of those numbers. Focusing on something so trivial takes our minds off of where it should, on God.

Zeno to be honest I really don't care whether Adam had a naval or not. Think about it. Another trivial matter to distract us from what's really important. So unless some one can find his grave no one will know until we get to heaven. So if it's that important for you to know, do your best to live according to God's will and some day you may meet him face to face so you can ask him yourself.

Hey Zeno it's been a pleasure. Even though we may disagree, your response has been one of the friendlier of all the ones I'm getting, and I thank you for that.

God Bless

Davaughn, you are right, God's basic scheme is the woman/man thing.

But there is Design behind homosexuality. Apparently, to make it more likely that for every man there is a woman, He created the "fraternal birth order effect:" it true that the more older full brothers or half brothers you have with the same mother the more likely it is that you are homosexual. (Apparently, each older brother increases the odds of being gay by 33%.)

It's a prenatal effect, not a social effect, it's not true for unrelated males one grew up with, or even half brothers with a different mother.

It's almost that He was thinking, oops getting too many men in that neighborhood, lets make it more likely that the next brother is not that interested in women.

So what He succeeded in designing is something close to "for every interested man there is a woman."

If you are interested in the details of this Design feature you can read all about it in:

Anthony F. Bogaert, Biological versus nonbiological older brothers and men’s sexual orientation, Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences of the United States of America, July 11, 2006, vol. 103, no. 28, pp. 10771–10774

https://www.pnas.org/content/103/28/10771.full.pdf

PS Do you think that the sex ratio (105 boys to 100 girls at birth) is a Design Flaw. In my congregation we disagree about this. Just as we disagree about whether Adam had a navel. What's your reading of the Scripture on this one?

dw41552

12-17-2008, 10:11 PM

Hey erieber

Great question. Ill do my best to answer your question, but remember I'm an imperfect being just like everyone else. so don't take my answer as written in stone. My advice to you would be to find a non dinominational church that teaches strictly out of the bible and talk to the pastors who have much more knowledge on these kinds of subjects than I. In other words always do your own DD.

You're right. God could just snap a fingers, (if He has any :):) and turn us all into perfect beings. The problem with that is then it wouldn't be our choice. For instance let's say you liked a boy/girl, (Sorry don't know if you're M or F) Would you rather be able to snap your finger and instantly he/she would be madly in love with you? Or would you rather take the time for her/him to get to know you, then fall madly in love with you of there own free will. In other words it was there choice to be with you, not yours forced upon them. Does that make sense?

You see it's kind of the same with God. He created us to be His companions, but he wants us to get to know Him and make that choice of our own free will. He doesn't want a bunch of robots. So unfortunately evil is a necassary evil. There's many inticing wordly pleasures that are outside of God's will such as fornication, drugs, alcohol etc. etc. And for those that choose God over the things of this world are the people He wants as His companions.

God gave us a perfect body, a perfect world with everything we need to have a good life, and a set of rules to live by, but man with his stubborn streak, his ego and his pride rejected God and His rules to do things their own way. Not all men but most. It finally got so bad, and man became so evil He destoyed every living thing on this planet with the exception of Noah, his family and some animals. So man gets a second chance but obviously doesn't learn their lesson. So instead of destroying us for a second time He Himself came to earth as Jesus to be the sacrifice for all of our sins and to give us a new set of rules to live by. Only this time there are only two instead of ten.

Love God with all your heart, soul, strength, and mind, and to love your neighbor as you love yourself. You see if you live these two commands you would not break any of the old ten commanments.

Jesus took all our sins upon Himself so that we may live because we are not capable of totally controling our sinful nature that every human has. All we have to do is admit we are sinners, believe in Jesus and that He paid the penalty for our sins, ask Him to forgive us for those sins, and then try our best to live our lives according to God's will.

This is something that anyone can do anywhere. It totally changed my life, and let me tell you something, I wasn't a very nice person. But God loved me any way even though I didn't deserve it, He has forgiven me for everything bad I've done in the past, And he continues to forgive me as long as I admit my mistakes and am truly sorry for them. I am not perfect by any means, but I strive for perfection. The more I do the less I disapoint God, and the more he takes care of me and blesses my life. Since I invited Jesus into my life to be my Lord and Savior, I have experienced many goose bump moments, when the only thing I can get out of my mouth is WOOOOOWWW!

Well erieber I hope that helps, and feel free to ask any question you have and I'll do my best to answer it. If I can't, I can certainly find someone who can.

God bless

Could you explain something to me? I've often wondered why Jesus had to die for our sins. I mean, if God is all powerful, couldn't he just say "Hey y'all, you no longer are sinners"? Why do we have to continue thanking all the time for something we didn't ask for?

Just would like some clarification from someone who's enlightened.

theindependenteye

12-17-2008, 10:56 PM

>>Well let me apologize for twisting your arm and trying to force you to think my way. Who's misguided here? Are you telling me it's OK to state your opinion here but it's not OK for me to do so. Kind of one sided don't you think?
>>Sir my bible is the word of God, and it is my faith that gives me understanding when I read it, I don't care which version It is. If it's not from God, I know. And my beliefs come from God so I know with all my heart they are real and true.

Dear DW--

You certainly have a right to post here, and I hope the conversation stays polite. You must be aware that you're coming into a forum where it's probable that a small minority share your literalist Biblical interpretations, and you're not simply expressing them, you're applying them to a specific social issue in which many of us have a very strong emotional stake.

You respond to questions about homosexuality with faith-based opinions based, as far as I can tell, on your particular church's interpretation of ancient writing that's very often -- in the view of many of us -- self-contradictory and/or subject to radically different interpretations. For centuries, the Bible was used to justify slavery; even in my own memory as a kid, people quoted chapter and verse to argue against equal rights for blacks. And even now, it's used by some denominations to define not only the role but the rights of women.

When contradictions are pointed out, the common tactic is either -- as you do -- to claim these are trivial objections, or to say, well, lots of stuff in the OT is supplanted by the New Covenant. So, presumably, Jesus made it ok to eat shellfish and not stone your children for dishonoring you. And yet, when it fits your sociopolitical agenda, those old Leviticus quotes come barreling out as gospel truth.

I apologize for saying this with some heat, DW, but it's on two counts, and neither has to do with a simple clash between our religious viewpoints. I've known many, many devout Christians whose faith is luminous, productive, and gives depth to their souls. You may certainly be one of those.

But I'm angered, first, because I have personal friends whose lives are directly affected by your conclusions about homosexuality. The standard line of "we don't hate gays, we love them" -- yes, I know what you mean, and I believe you're sincere in describing your feelings. But the fact that you would never beat'em to death with a baseball bat doesn't mean that you'll not do everything possible to push them into second-class citizenship. We would both agree that some drunken goon who beats his wife is doing something incredibly foul -- you'd call it sin and, yes, I'd agree. And yet he has a legal right to be married, while Karen, John, and a dozen other friends of mine don't, despite being in long-term, deeply committed relationships. Why? Because, in your view, God said so.

I believe that if you're one who is truly in a profound relationship with your God, you should listen very closely to what He says that relates directly to how you live your own life. But when you hear that Inner Voice tell you how someone else should live theirs, you'd better worry that it's spam from the satan.

My other sore point is this: I've read a fair number of Christian ethicists, novelists and theologians, and while I cling pretty forcefully to my half-Quaker, half-Neopagan beliefs as my personal roadmap, I really have respect for the sophistication of their thinking. Likewise the Christian martyrs of the civil rights struggles, the peace movement, and Liberation Theology.

But every time I come to American fundamentalist preachings, I can't help starting to feel -- with apologies for slighting your beliefs -- that the Devil invented Fundamentalism as a way of discrediting Christianity. You seem to be talking to yourself, not to me. It's presented on the level of a kids' fairy tale, with salvation obtainable like a magazine subscription. You just accept it, and you never have to ask or answer another question the rest of your life.

That appeals to a lot of people, but it doesn't appeal to me. A true witness for Christ, I believe, speaks in the language of the people to whom he's speaking, and also listens. Otherwise, he's just talking to himself. And when we're talking, as we are here, about concrete political actions that flow from our beliefs, don't be surprised if those beliefs are questioned with some vehemence.

"And one of them, a lawyer, asked Him a question, testing Him, 'Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?' And He said to him, 'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the great and foremost commandment. The second is like it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets.'"

I believe that deeply. And I think you do as well. But we differ radically on the conclusions we draw from it.

Peace & joy--
Conrad

dw41552

12-17-2008, 11:15 PM

Hey Jeff

No sir it is not OK. That is Polygamy, and that is against the law.

There is no black and white. God did not intend for anyone to be homosexual or bisexual. He created everyone to be heterosexual, so that the human race could grow. It's as simple as that.

God does not choose our mates, but He would insist that who ever your friend chooses be a man. You answered the question yourself when you called your friend her.

God Bless

OK, sure. So, it must be OK for a bisexual man to marry a woman and another man as well, right?

All of these black and white discussions ignore the fact of people who are bisexual. Actually, sexuality isn't black and white. People aren't gay or straight. Sexuality exists on a bell curve with some people extremely limited by their hetero or homo sexual self identification. The rest of us exist somewhere else on the curve, attracted to both sexes (and perhaps others) depending on various factors including how we feel at any given time and under any given circumstances. That's just a fact, dw41552. Get used to it.

BTW, I have a friend who was born a true hermaphrodite. Yup, both man and woman, fully functional, in one body. How would you define that person's sexuality? Who would God choose as a lover for her?

-Jeff

Zeno Swijtink

12-18-2008, 12:02 AM

Hey Zeno it's been a pleasure. Even though we may disagree, your response has been one of the friendlier of all the ones I'm getting, and I thank you for that.

God Bless

I'm polite, but I'm not friendly. Don't confuse the two.

I am sorry you are not interested or curious about the fine details of His Creation. Maybe I am old fashioned. I love the Christians in the 17th, 18th and 19th c. Like John Arbuthnot and his 1710 argument for Divine Providence, An argument for Divine Providence, taken from the constant regularity observed in the births of both sexes.

And you may not really care whether Adam had a naval or not, but Christians with more interest in the wonderful details of his Creation do.

https://www.christiananswers.net/q-aig/bellybutton.html

I love how Arbuthnot begins his paper

"Among innumerable Footsteps of Divine Providence, to be found in the Works of Nature , there is a very remarkable one to be observed in the exact Ballance that is ... "

I agree with Philip Gosse in his 1857 book Omphalos: An Attempt to Untie the Geological Knot that Adam had a navel, and that the fossil record is not undeniable evidence of evolution, since He may have chosen 5768 years ago to create the earth complete with fossils of dinosaurs and of other weird stuff.

Sometimes I struggle with that though. Could it be that He is taking us for a ride? Like you.

Are You God? Or at least related to God? I saw online that you go around under the name Davaughn Wistrom, and that you are a carpenter. Now I know that Jesus's step dad was a carpenter. That cannot be a coincidence. It's a sign, a Sign, I think.

I like the picture You choose for yourself

https://a277.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/23/m_86a752d6e91c404aff66f115cc6b8dec.jpg

Then the Web (The Web Knows Everything) said You have an interest in

https://www.cashleveragingnetwork.com/tclsImages/tclsPageTop.jpg

https://www.cashleveragingnetwork.com/main.php

That shocked me. In the New Covenant Jesus turns over the tables of the money changers, the money sharpers (Matthew 21:12). Is there a Newer Covenant? And what do you make of the financial collapse? Easy Money, is it ok, after all?

MsTerry

12-18-2008, 12:27 AM

That is a very generous offer.
I'd love to see some names!
Oh, and can you let me know how to contact them so that I can make sure you are not pulling my leg?

Yes I can. And if I gave you some names, would that open your mind? Would you then Believe? If yes, I would be glad to share many names of people who I know are in heaven. If no, then I would be wasting my time, right?

I've shared with you what I know in my heart to be the truth. It's up to you to either except it or reject it. Either way I see no need to make fun of you or belittle you. That's not our way. My response is to pray for you because I wish nothing but the best for you, and I mean that with all me heart.

God bless

dw41552

12-18-2008, 01:00 AM

Hey again Sylph

I'm sorry, but all I see in this study is a bunch of speculation amd conjecture.
How many people did this study involve. Was it hundreds, thousands, millions.
I suspect probably a few hundred if that. How much time was invloved in this study? There are millions of gay people all over the world, so point number one means nothing. We sinners are not localized in one spot. Any life style you find here you will also find in many other societies. Not to mention what goes for a few hundred does not make it fact for all. And not all their facts were true of everyone they studied. Where's the percentages. Is this true for all the study subjects, three quarters, half. Notice, no numbers. Without numbers all the words I read mean nothing.

Take astrology. Anyone could be an astrologer. All it takes is to write some things about people born in lets say March. Now lets divide 6 billion people by 12 months, and you get approximately 500 million people born in March. Chances are what you wrote will be right on for about a quarter of these people and close for maybe half. Means nothing because it's all guess work.

Sylph I am not your enemy. When I came here I saw a question and I felt led to answer it. I've said nothing bad about anyone, I've not belittled anyone, and I've not elevated myself above anyone. I've been nothing but kind, and respectful. All I've done is shared what I know to be true. I've been open and honest and explained what I believe and why I believe it. You see this is the difference between those of us who believe and those who do not. I reach out with love and compassion and most of you lash back with anger and hostility. So I ask who's way of handling an intelligent converation is better, yours or ours?

God Bless

On a blue Honda:
'Militant agnostic, I don't know and you don't either!' and
'I don't have a problem with God, it's his fan club I can't stand'

Here is an evolutionary reason for the persistence of homosexuality among us humans even though gay (men) don't have children together. I hadn't read this before...interesting.

Sexual Antagonism
A genetic theory of homosexuality.
By William Saletan Wednesday, June 25, 2008
Gay couples can't have biological kids together. So if homosexuality is genetic, why hasn't it died out?

A study published last week in PLoS One tackles the question. It starts with four curious patterns. First, male homosexuality occurs at a low but stable frequency in a wide range of societies. Second, the female relatives of gay men produce children at a higher rate than other women do. Third, among these female relatives, those related to the gay man's mother produce children at a higher rate than do those related to his father. Fourth, among the man's male relatives, homosexuality is more common in those related to his mother than in those related to his father.

Can genes account for these patterns? To find out, the authors posit several possible mechanisms and compute their effects over time. They conclude that only one theory fits the data. The theory is called "sexually antagonistic selection." It holds that a gene can be reproductively harmful to one sex as long as it's helpful to the other. The gene for male homosexuality persists because it promotes—and is passed down through—high rates of procreation among gay men's mothers, sisters, and aunts.

"You have all this antagonism against homosexuality because they say it's against nature because it doesn't lead to reproduction. We found out this is not true because homosexuality is just one of the consequences of strategies for making females more fecund."
https://www.slate.com/id/2194232/

dw41552

12-18-2008, 01:33 AM

MsTerry MsTerry MsTerry

There are lots of names I could give you right in the bible but I'm going to only give you one because I believe no matter how many I give you, you will still not believe.

The name is Jesus Christ, and you can contact Him by getting on your knees and asking Him to reveal Himself to you. If you do that with all sincerety I assure you, somehow, some way, He will touch your heart and you will know He is real. So go ahead. Make my day.:):

God Bless

MsTerry;77565]That is a very generous offer.
I'd love to see some names!
Oh, and can you let me know how to contact them so that I can make sure you are not pulling my leg?[/quote]

dw41552

12-18-2008, 01:44 AM

I don't understand the need for sarcasm. Is this how you handle peope when they don't follow your every word. You seem to feel the need to try and drag stuff up to try and ridicule me. Why? Because I don't have the same interests as you? Because I choose to use my time in a different way than you. Kind of childish don't you think?

But you know what. That's OK! I've said all along I am not perfect and never will be. The cash leveraging thing was one of my many mistakes I still make. Hey compared to things I did before I became a born again Christian this is the equivilent to snitching a cookie when mom wasn't looking. Shortly after, I dumped the whole Idea because it was wrong. and I lost $25. It was stupid and an act of desperation, because yes I'm a carpenter, an unemployed one at that, with no job in sight because of the blow the housing industry has taken. And unemployment doesn't last forever. Just because I'm a Christian doesn't mean that bad things don't happen. At that time I wasn't relying on my faith as I should have, my mistake. But I am now, and things are starting to pick up. God has opened up door for me that's pretty exciting. Hey the Lord and I are still tight.

So tell me Zeno, have you figured out yet whether Adam had a naval or not. Just how much time am I supposed to spend trying to figure it out, and what am I supposed to do with the information if I do. Do you not see just how ridiculous this is.

Look Sir, let me put it to you this way. You can drag up what ever you like about me. I'm an open book with nothing to hide. Hey I have a mysace you can check out www.myspace.com/butch1552 (https://www.myspace.com/butch1552). My real name is in fact Davaughn Wistrom. I go by the nick name Butch. 1552 is the year of my birth, and the picture in fact is me. So Go ahead. But I'm still not going to care about something I have absolutely no control over. I have much more pressing things I can put my energy into. If that bugs you, Sir that is your problem.

You see people. This gentleman obviously considers himself a Christian, and unfortunately these are the ones you have to watch out for. Personally I'm going to pray for him.

Have a nice day
And God Bless

I'm polite, but I'm not friendly. Don't confuse the two.

I am sorry you are not interested or curious about the fine details of His Creation. Maybe I am old fashioned. I love the Christians in the 17th, 18th and 19th c. Like John Arbuthnot and his 1710 argument for Divine Providence, An argument for Divine Providence, taken from the constant regularity observed in the births of both sexes.

And you may not really care whether Adam had a naval or not, but Christians with more interest in the wonderful details of his Creation do.

https://www.christiananswers.net/q-aig/bellybutton.html

I love how Arbuthnot begins his paper

I agree with Philip Gosse in his 1857 book Omphalos: An Attempt to Untie the Geological Knot that Adam had a navel, and that the fossil record is not undeniable evidence of evolution, since He may have chosen 5768 years ago to create the earth complete with fossils of dinosaurs and of other weird stuff.

Sometimes I struggle with that though. Could it be that He is taking us for a ride? Like you.

Are You God? Or at least related to God? I saw online that you go around under the name Davaughn Wistrom, and that you are a carpenter. Now I know that Jesus's step dad was a carpenter. That cannot be a coincidence. It's a sign, a Sign, I think.

I like the picture You choose for yourself

https://a277.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/23/m_86a752d6e91c404aff66f115cc6b8dec.jpg

Then the Web (The Web Knows Everything) said You have an interest in

https://www.cashleveragingnetwork.com/tclsImages/tclsPageTop.jpg

https://www.cashleveragingnetwork.com/main.php

That shocked me. In the New Covenant Jesus turns over the tables of the money changers, the money sharpers (Matthew 21:12). Is there a Newer Covenant? And what do you make of the financial collapse? Easy Money, is it ok, after all?

dw41552

12-18-2008, 04:44 AM

Hey Conrad

First let me thank you for being a gentlman, and responding with wisdom and intelligence. I appreciate it.

[quote=theindependenteye;77559]>>Well let me apologize for twisting your arm and trying to force you to think my way. Who's misguided here? Are you telling me it's OK to state your opinion here but it's not OK for me to do so. Kind of one sided don't you think?
>>Sir my bible is the word of God, and it is my faith that gives me understanding when I read it, I don't care which version It is. If it's not from God, I know. And my beliefs come from God so I know with all my heart they are real and true.

Dear DW--

You certainly have a right to post here, and I hope the conversation stays polite. You must be aware that you're coming into a forum where it's probable that a small minority share your literalist Biblical interpretations, and you're not simply expressing them, you're applying them to a specific social issue in which many of us have a very strong emotional stake.

I want you and everyone here to know that disagreeing with the homosexual life style is not my only agenda. I was actually looking for a way to cancel my membership when I stumbled upon this thread with homosexuality being the topic at hand and felt led to respond. So no, I'm not applying God's word to just this one social issue.

Had the topic been fornication, alcoholism, drug abuse, smoking, anything outside of God's will, my posts would have been pretty much the same.

You respond to questions about homosexuality with faith-based opinions based, as far as I can tell, on your particular church's interpretation of ancient writing that's very often -- in the view of many of us -- self-contradictory and/or subject to radically different interpretations. For centuries, the Bible was used to justify slavery; even in my own memory as a kid, people quoted chapter and verse to argue against equal rights for blacks. And even now, it's used by some denominations to define not only the role but the rights of women.

Before I became Christian when I read the bible it was like trying to read a foreign language. I didn't understand it. But when I was born again it's as if the words came to life. I'd read a verse and it would be like, "oooooohhhh, that's what that means. Now I get it". Suddenly my eyes and mind were wide open. So like I said, when I read any bible I know if the interpretation is of God or not. God is not the author of confusion. People keep saying the bible was written by man. No it was not. A man may have held the writing tool, but God controlled the man. The bible is the word of God, simple as that.
It is through the bible and much prayer that I get my words. I'm just passing on what was taught to me by God Himself. It is the same for the pastor of my church.

If one does misinterpret the bible then they are not of God. Jesus warned us this would happen close to the end times:

Matthew 24:24 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=24&verse=24&version=31&context=verse)
For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect—if that were possible.

When contradictions are pointed out, the common tactic is either -- as you do -- to claim these are trivial objections, or to say, well, lots of stuff in the OT is supplanted by the New Covenant. So, presumably, Jesus made it ok to eat shellfish and not stone your children for dishonoring you. And yet, when it fits your sociopolitical agenda, those old Leviticus quotes come barreling out as gospel truth.

Homosexuality is refered to as sin in both the Old and New Testament.

Old Testament
Genesis 19
1 The two angels arrived at Sodom in the evening, and Lot was sitting in the gateway of the city. When he saw them, he got up to meet them and bowed down with his face to the ground. 2 "My lords," he said, "please turn aside to your servant's house. You can wash your feet and spend the night and then go on your way early in the morning."
"No," they answered, "we will spend the night in the square."
3 But he insisted so strongly that they did go with him and entered his house. He prepared a meal for them, baking bread without yeast, and they ate. 4 Before they had gone to bed, all the men from every part of the city of Sodom—both young and old—surrounded the house. 5 They called to Lot, "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them."

Notice the sin used as an example of how corrupt Sodom was.

New Testament
Matthew 10
14 If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, shake the dust off your feet when you leave that home or town. 15 I tell you the truth, it will be more bearable for Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town.

2 Peter 2
6 if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly

You see everyone, past, present, and future will have to stand before Jesus on judgement day and account for their deeds. So it doesn't make sense that he would punish someone from Old Testament times, and not punish someone from New Testament times for the same act.

I apologize for saying this with some heat, DW, but it's on two counts, and neither has to do with a simple clash between our religious viewpoints. I've known many, many devout Christians whose faith is luminous, productive, and gives depth to their souls. You may certainly be one of those.

But I'm angered, first, because I have personal friends whose lives are directly affected by your conclusions about homosexuality. The standard line of "we don't hate gays, we love them" -- yes, I know what you mean, and I believe you're sincere in describing your feelings. But the fact that you would never beat'em to death with a baseball bat doesn't mean that you'll not do everything possible to push them into second-class citizenship. We would both agree that some drunken goon who beats his wife is doing something incredibly foul -- you'd call it sin and, yes, I'd agree. And yet he has a legal right to be married, while Karen, John, and a dozen other friends of mine don't, despite being in long-term, deeply committed relationships. Why? Because, in your view, God said so.

This guy that beat his wife may be able to get married but he'll also end up in hell for beating his wife unless he repents. And this has nothing to do with my view. It's not my view that matters here, it's God's. And yes he does say no. I don't know how to explain it any simpler than that.

Hebrews 13
4 Marriage should be honored by all, and the marriage bed kept pure, for God will judge the adulterer and all the sexually immoral.

Matthew19
4 "Haven't you read," he replied, "that at the beginning the Creator 'made them male and female,' 5 and said, 'For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh? 6 So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate."

Like I said in another post I have a cousin who is gay and I've worked along side them as well. I love my cousin, and if he needed me I would gladly be their for him. There's nothing I would do for anyone else that I wouldn't do for a gay person. Do you think I like the idea that my cousin won't make it to heaven unless he repents, and changes his ways. Do you think I like the idea that my father will defintely not make it to heave as he was an abusive alcoholic right up till his death. Do you think I like the idea that both my brothers and both my sisters may not make it to heaven because they all live outside of Gods will. It breaks my heart and all I can do is pray for them as they have heard the same things from me I'm sharing with you guys.

I believe that if you're one who is truly in a profound relationship with your God, you should listen very closely to what He says that relates directly to how you live your own life. But when you hear that Inner Voice tell you how someone else should live theirs, you'd better worry that it's spam from the satan.

Conrad I'm not telling anyone how to live there lives. I'm telling them how God expects them to live. He just uses me as His voice. I am no body. I have no power of my own. Anything I do for Him is because of the power of Jesus in me. With out him I am nothing. And believe me when old satan tries to get into my head I know it.

My other sore point is this: I've read a fair number of Christian ethicists, novelists and theologians, and while I cling pretty forcefully to my half-Quaker, half-Neopagan beliefs as my personal roadmap, I really have respect for the sophistication of their thinking. Likewise the Christian martyrs of the civil rights struggles, the peace movement, and Liberation Theology.

But every time I come to American fundamentalist preachings, I can't help starting to feel -- with apologies for slighting your beliefs -- that the Devil invented Fundamentalism as a way of discrediting Christianity. You seem to be talking to yourself, not to me. It's presented on the level of a kids' fairy tale, with salvation obtainable like a magazine subscription. You just accept it, and you never have to ask or answer another question the rest of your life.

Like you I'm a deep thinker, but because of that sometimes I tend to over
analyze things, when the answer I was seeking was actually pretty simple.
But what God wants is for us to be faithful as little children.

Matthew 11:25 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=11&verse=25&version=31&context=verse)
[ Rest for the Weary ] At that time Jesus said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children.

Matthew 18:3 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=18&verse=3&version=31&context=verse)
And he said: "I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

That appeals to a lot of people, but it doesn't appeal to me. A true witness for Christ, I believe, speaks in the language of the people to whom he's speaking, and also listens. Otherwise, he's just talking to himself. And when we're talking, as we are here, about concrete political actions that flow from our beliefs, don't be surprised if those beliefs are questioned with some vehemence.

"And one of them, a lawyer, asked Him a question, testing Him, 'Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?' And He said to him, 'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the great and foremost commandment. The second is like it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets.'"

I believe that deeply. And I think you do as well. But we differ radically on the conclusions we draw from it.

I can only share with you what God has taught me, and then it's your choice whether you except it or not. I've said what I was compeled to say and I wish you the best.

Peace & joy--
Conrad

Peace and joy to you also
Butch

MsTerry

12-18-2008, 06:49 AM

DW,

I did what you suggested, without hostillity and full of sincerity and a open heart.
Nothing happened, so I have to assume that he got kicked out.
Give me a real live one this time!
And make it someone you know from personal experience, so we don't have to keep going back and forth.

MsTerry MsTerry MsTerry

There are lots of names I could give you right in the bible but I'm going to only give you one because I believe no matter how many I give you, you will still not believe.

The name is Jesus Christ, and you can contact Him by getting on your knees and asking Him to reveal Himself to you. If you do that with all sincerety I assure you, somehow, some way, He will touch your heart and you will know He is real. So go ahead. Make my day.:):

God Bless

MsTerry;77565]That is a very generous offer.
I'd love to see some names!
Oh, and can you let me know how to contact them so that I can make sure you are not pulling my leg?[/quote]

MsTerry

12-18-2008, 07:02 AM

Butch,
Since you are a christian and probably have to tell thewholetruth how did you happen upon Wacco.bb?

I like the picture You choose for yourself

https://a277.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/23/m_86a752d6e91c404aff66f115cc6b8dec.jpg

Zeno Swijtink

12-18-2008, 08:15 AM

I don't undersand the need for sarcasm. Is this how you handle peope when they don't follow your every word. You seem to feel the need to try and drag stuff up to try and ridicule me. Why? Because I don't have the same interests as you? Because I choose to use my time in a different way than you. Kind of childish don't you think?

I was responding to what I perceived as your self-righteousness, your sanctimoniousness. That's why I pointed out that you were (are?) promoting a cash leveraging network - some Ponzi scheme?? - and dragging people into shady money manipulation.

I understand. These are difficult times, we all need to feed and house the people we are responsible for, the children we care for.

John 8:7 comes to mind: "So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her."

Braggi

12-18-2008, 09:25 AM

Hey Jeff

No sir it is not OK. That is Polygamy, and that is against the law.

But polygamy is well described in the Holy Bible, as you know, as is having children by "handmaids." Whose law trumps? Your God's law or man's law?

... There is no black and white. God did not intend for anyone to be homosexual or bisexual. He created everyone to be heterosexual, so that the human race could grow. It's as simple as that. ...

Bisexual and homosexual people can make fine parents so that's not an issue. Why would God give people bisexual interests and urges if they are not to be followed? Bisexual men are much less likely to become warriors. Perhaps that's the reason for the prohibition by governments?

... God does not choose our mates, but He would insist that who ever your friend chooses be a man. You answered the question yourself when you called your friend her.

She prefers feminine pronouns as a protest against her misogynist father who tried to force her to be a boy. Rest assured, she is a fully equipped, fertile, functional man as well. Would you team up that person with a man? Can you imagine what kind of things they might do in the bedroom?

Life isn't as simple as you're making it out to be. That's my point in chiming in here. I think Christianity's fatal flaw is that it tries to simplify complex realities. That methodology creates huge blind spots and in the case of Christianity has caused a majority of the violence this planet has seen. It's a pretty terrible history and a frightening legacy in that Christianity rarely owns more than a tiny part of it.

Blindness begets blindness and violence begets violence. These are things to be overcome and increasing the number and varieties of people we love is one solution to these problems.

-Jeff

pjpete

12-18-2008, 09:33 AM

Jesus says very clearly, "Judge Not, Least Ye Be Judged" So, you can probably expect to be judged because of your hatred and homophobia. Why do some people, like the poster of this topic, only refer to sections of the Bible that only suits them?

mykil

12-18-2008, 09:58 AM

<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
Hi everyone, I just wanted to stop by and say "HI". Needless to say I was quite shocked to find you all in the homosexual department!!!<o:p></o:p>

pjpete

12-18-2008, 10:00 AM

Dude, what is a Homo? Is that the fly that crawls around on your cam outside your business entitled "Two Men and A Truck"?

Does anyone ever pay attention to the bible anymore? Does anyone realize there are something like 300 references to adultery with a man and women and only about a dozen with homo's?<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>

<o:p></o:p>

ChristineL

12-18-2008, 11:00 AM

The human race has grown and grown and grown, to the point God's other creations, including the earth itself, are dying. I like that..."even the sparrow falling from the tree..." passage, as well as St Francis, a lot. I don't think God really wanted us to take over to the point we're killing his other creatures. Back in the days of Jesus, most children did not survive...all that multiplying made sense. These days, enough children survive to overpopulate the earth.

Most gay male couples who want children adopt the unwanted. Many have the income to provide excellent medical care as well as higher education. Could that be part of God's plan for them? At least Gay couples can't get totally drunk and wake up pregnant. There are way too many badly cared for, in some places starving, children out there. At this point the "be fruitful and multiply" idea needs to be balanced with the "he who hurts one of these" passage.

And, no sexuality is not black and white. Sorry, but God allows a lot of interesting biological "mistakes" out there. There are a lot more transgendered babies born than you might think. My now deceased friend Stephanie had the exterior genetic parts of a male, but was XXY as opposed to XY in chromosome make-up. The hormonal functions were much more female. There are a lot more hermaphrodites born than you think. Unfortunately, doctors and parents often make the decision to surgically remove something at birth. Once the hormones kick in, it's often found they removed the wrong equipment. A fully functioning hermaphrodite like Jeff's friend is rare. Often they are more one sex than the other, and that can't be determined until puberty sets in.

I'd still like an answer to a previous question: Do you feel God intended that the "unfruitful", those that are sterile, not marry? Many transgedered people are sterile, on top of being both male and female; are they supposed to live without romantic love and marriage? Maybe we could conclude that if God's intent was that men and women marry and have children, He wouldn't have created sterile or transgendered people. But He did, so maybe homosexuality is inborn as well?

Hey Jeff

No sir it is not OK. That is Polygamy, and that is against the law.

There is no black and white. God did not intend for anyone to be homosexual or bisexual. He created everyone to be heterosexual, so that the human race could grow. It's as simple as that.

God does not choose our mates, but He would insist that who ever your friend chooses be a man. You answered the question yourself when you called your friend her.

God Bless

mykil

12-18-2008, 11:30 AM

I am sorry I have not been following this thread, I have been getting the emails and just wanted to see what was up. I do not care what is in the bible anymore; I am more in the NOW. Something that was written soooo long ago does not speak for me what so ever and I am really just amazed that so many even still read that thing! I love Homos, I love bi’s I love straights, Hell I love everyone, if you are reading this I even love you so there! If you think someone could write something new I would be entertained by the idea of trying to get it in the big book so as we would have something new and entertaining to stay by…

Oh and BTW the person responsable for this post is BI I hope you do know...

dw41552

12-18-2008, 01:06 PM

MsTerry

There is no need to go on because we both know you didn't do as I suggest with all sencerety. Your sarcasm gives you away. And even though there are many in heaven, you cannot speak to the departed. The only one you can have any contact with is Jesus.

John 14:6 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=14&verse=6&version=31&context=verse)
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

I will no longer respond to sarcasm or hostility. So all negative responses I will just delete. If anyone wants to have an intelligent conversation as two grown up adults I will gladly respond.

God Bless all

Quote=MsTerry;77573]DW,

I did what you suggested, without hostillity and full of sincerity and a open heart.
Nothing happened, so I have to assume that he got kicked out.
Give me a real live one this time!
And make it someone you know from personal experience, so we don't have to keep going back and forth.

[/quote][/quote]

dw41552

12-18-2008, 01:58 PM

Hey Christine

First I want to thank you for responding without hostility and sarcasm. It is people like you that I enjoy conversing with, even though we may not agree. People have to learn that it's Ok to agree to disagree. How boring would this world be if everyone thought exactly the same. God made us all unique with special qualities and gifts. Unfortunately some like me take a long time to discover them and even more heart breaking is most never do.

I apologize for not answering you the first time. So to answer your question. Absolutely not. As a matter of fact My son in law is totally 100% sterile and he and my daughter are also Christians. I don't know why he is, I can only guess. Maybe God allowed this to happen so that they would adopt the six kids that are now being raised by my daughter and son in law. These kids come from abusive back grounds. One of the girls was raped by a 40 year old next door neighbor at six years old. He never made it to trial because he was over taken by cancer and died. I feel sorry for him the day he has to face Jesus and account for his deeds. Three of the other children were sexually abused in one way or another. My goodness these are children who were nine years old and down. Any way they have all been living in a loving nurturing, Christ centered home for the last eight years provided by my daughter and husband. I am so proud of the two of them and not to mention I have six beauitiful grandchildren. So my son in laws sterility saved six innocent children from a life of misery and pain. You've heard the saying. God works in mysterious ways. He will always turn something bad into good if we believe. My daughter and her husband are proof He can.

I stick with what I've said all along I don't believe that gays are born with a gay gene. Anyone who is sterile has the chance to still marry someone of the opposite sex and adopt children. It's not like there's a shortage of kids that desperately need a loving nurturing Christ centered home. I am against same sex marriage and especially against them raising Kids. I believe it would be very confusing for the children being raised by same sex lovers especially when they see the majority of their friends being raised by a man and woman. And God is not the author of confusion. I believe that one or both parents would try to sway their children into living their life style even if they had no interest. Children have enough to deal with especially in the teen years with out adding confusion. They push their agenda pretty hard trying to convince everyone that their life style is normal and it's not. Otherwise we would all be fully functional hermaphrodites. Man's touche was designed for only one reason. I'm sorry if that sounds graphic and blunt. But that's the way I am. I don't believe in sugar coating the truth. I believe in being honest and to the point.

I hope that answers your question. You may not agree with it, but you asked.:):

God Bless

The human race has grown and grown and grown, to the point God's other creations, including the earth itself, are dying. I like that..."even the sparrow falling from the tree..." passage, as well as St Francis, a lot. I don't think God really wanted us to take over to the point we're killing his other creatures. Back in the days of Jesus, most children did not survive...all that multiplying made sense. These days, enough children survive to overpopulate the earth.

Most gay male couples who want children adopt the unwanted. Many have the income to provide excellent medical care as well as higher education. Could that be part of God's plan for them? At least Gay couples can't get totally drunk and wake up pregnant. There are way too many badly cared for, in some places starving, children out there. At this point the "be fruitful and multiply" idea needs to be balanced with the "he who hurts one of these" passage.

And, no sexuality is not black and white. Sorry, but God allows a lot of interesting biological "mistakes" out there. There are a lot more transgendered babies born than you might think. My now deceased friend Stephanie had the exterior genetic parts of a male, but was XXY as opposed to XY in chromosome make-up. The hormonal functions were much more female. There are a lot more hermaphrodites born than you think. Unfortunately, doctors and parents often make the decision to surgically remove something at birth. Once the hormones kick in, it's often found they removed the wrong equipment. A fully functioning hermaphrodite like Jeff's friend is rare. Often they are more one sex than the other, and that can't be determined until puberty sets in.

I'd still like an answer to a previous question: Do you feel God intended that the "unfruitful", those that are sterile, not marry? Many transgedered people are sterile, on top of being both male and female; are they supposed to live without romantic love and marriage? Maybe we could conclude that if God's intent was that men and women marry and have children, He wouldn't have created sterile or transgendered people. But He did, so maybe homosexuality is inborn as well?

Lorrie

12-18-2008, 02:14 PM

I have a question mister holy man.

Why do we have to account for our sins when we die, if we have prayed for forgiveness for them and repented (or did the best we could/or asked for forgiveness again if so needed) and Thanked Jesus Christ for dying for us on the cross to take our sins...

If we ask for forgiveness from God. Doesn't he give it? He did through Jesus...my understanding.

So if we are forgiven what is the stand before God and account for our sins when we die??

dw41552

12-18-2008, 02:38 PM

Sir, I hate no one, and I am judging no one. It is the life style that I am against and that I judge.

If my son were to steal something, I would not hate him, I would hate his decision. I would not judge him I would judge his thinking, and try to teach him to make better decisions and learn from his mistake. If I stood by and did or said nothing knowing he is stealing, what kind of father would I be. If I see people doing things that could ruin their lives, and did or said nothing, what kind of Christian would I be. That wouldn't be showing a whole lot of love would it.

As for your second statement, I am open to read and respond to any verse in the bible, (God"s word) you find that says God's OK with homosexuality.

God Bless

Jesus says very clearly, "Judge Not, Least Ye Be Judged" So, you can probably expect to be judged because of your hatred and homophobia. Why do some people, like the poster of this topic, only refer to sections of the Bible that only suits them?

Braggi

12-18-2008, 03:09 PM

Sir, I hate no one, and I am judging no one. It is the life style that I am against and that I judge. ...

You seem really obsessed with this dw41552. Nice name there, BTW.

Here's the classic study: https://www.philosophy-religion.org/handouts/homophobia.htm

-Jeff

ChristineL

12-18-2008, 03:32 PM

Personally being well acquainted with several people raised by gay parents, I can say they are not the least bit confused. It's that gene thing you don't believe in. Actually, children understand love first and foremost. Being brought up by people who love them and each other seems to overcome the confusion.

I'm still curious on your thoughts on "transgendered" people, biologically transgendered...God's intention please...

Hey Christine

First I want to thank you for responding without hostility and sarcasm. It is people like you that I enjoy conversing with, even though we may not agree. People have to learn that it's Ok to agree to disagree. How boring would this world be if everyone thought exactly the same. God made us all unique with special qualities and gifts. Unfortunately some like me take a long time to discover them and even more heart breaking is most never do.

I apologize for not answering you the first time. So to answer your question. Absolutely not. As a matter of fact My son in law is totally 100% sterile and he and my daughter are also Christians. I don't know why he is, I can only guess. Maybe God allowed this to happen so that they would adopt the six kids that are now being raised by my daughter and son in law. These kids come from abusive back grounds. One of the girls was raped by a 40 year old next door neighbor at six years old. He never made it to trial because he was over taken by cancer and died. I feel sorry for him the day he has to face Jesus and account for his deeds. Three of the other children were sexually abused in one way or another. My goodness these are children who were nine years old and down. Any way they have all been living in a loving nurturing, Christ centered home for the last eight years provided by my daughter and husband. I am so proud of the two of them and not to mention I have six beauitiful grandchildren. So my son in laws sterility saved six innocent children from a life of misery and pain. You've heard the saying. God works in mysterious ways. He will always turn something bad into good if we believe. My daughter and her husband are proof He can.

I stick with what I've said all along I don't believe that gays are born with a gay gene. Anyone who is sterile has the chance to still marry someone of the opposite sex and adopt children. It's not like there's a shortage of kids that desperately need a loving nurturing Christ centered home. I am against same sex marriage and especially against them raising Kids. I believe it would be very confusing for the children being raised by same sex lovers especially when they see the majority of their friends being raised by a man and woman. And God is not the author of confusion. I believe that one or both parents would try to sway their children into living their life style even if they had no interest. Children have enough to deal with especially in the teen years with out adding confusion. They push their agenda pretty hard trying to convince everyone that their life style is normal and it's not. Otherwise we would all be fully functional hermaphrodites. Man's touche was designed for only one reason. I'm sorry if that sounds graphic and blunt. But that's the way I am. I don't believe in sugar coating the truth. I believe in being honest and to the point.

I hope that answers your question. You may not agree with it, but you asked.:):

God Bless

dw41552

12-18-2008, 03:53 PM

Mam, there is no need for sarcasm. However I will answer you because you ask a great question. And I am not a holy man. I have no power of my own. Any power is of Jesus in me.

To answer your question. We do not. Have you ever heard of the rapture?
What will happen Is one day which only God knows, those who are dead who truely believed and and did their best to live according to God's will be raised from the dead, and those of us who are alive who also believe and have done their best to live according to God's will, will be taken from this world to be with Jesus. Because He has already deemed us His, we have no reason to stand and be judged. From that day on God is going to give everyone who is left behind seven years of tribulation, (A second chance) to make the same choice we who were taken did. During the seven years which will be brutal, those who make the right choice and died before the seven years is up will join the rest of us. Those who made the right decision but lasted till the very end of the seven years will see the glorious return of Jesus Christ to claim all those who belong to Him. Everyone else will have to stand before Jesus and account for their every deed and then be judged. Here are some scriptures to support this:

1 Thessalonians 4

15 According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage each other with these words.

Matthew 24

36 "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. 37 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38 For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 40 Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.

42 "Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. 43 But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. 44 So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him. 45 "Who then is the faithful and wise servant, whom the master has put in charge of the servants in his household to give them their food at the proper time? 46 It will be good for that servant whose master finds him doing so when he returns. 47 I tell you the truth, he will put him in charge of all his possessions. 48 But suppose that servant is wicked and says to himself, 'My master is staying away a long time,' 49 and he then begins to beat his fellow servants and to eat and drink with drunkards. 50 The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. 51 He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

God bless

I have a question mister holy man.

Why do we have to account for our sins when we die, if we have prayed for forgiveness for them and repented (or did the best we could/or asked for forgiveness again if so needed) and Thanked Jesus Christ for dying for us on the cross to take our sins...

If we ask for forgiveness from God. Doesn't he give it? He did through Jesus...my understanding.

So if we are forgiven what is the stand before God and account for our sins when we die??

Neshamah

12-18-2008, 03:58 PM

DW,

In Joshua 10:12-13, the sun and moon stand still in the sky. This was cited by the Church to support the Ptolemaic view of a geocentric universe. (If the universe were heliocentric, surely the earth would stand still rather than the sun and moon.) Now that we know more about the universe, we know the Ptolemaic inspired interpretation was incorrect.

There are numerous other examples where our understanding of Scripture has been refined. Polygyny is the norm in most human cultures for most of human history and is reflected in Scripture. Yet modern Jewish and mainstream Christian cultures forbid it. Slavery has been part of human culture throughout history (and is still around today in fact if not in name.) Scripture regulates it, while modern Jewish and Christian cultures work in theory to eliminate it. Scripture does not consider the unborn to have rights (See Genesis 38:24: a woman three months pregnant is condemned to be burned even though she is three months pregnant.) Modern biology has led most of Christendom to a different conclusion on the unborn. I think it is only a matter of time before most Christians refine their understanding of Scripture regarding homosexual relationships.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>

Christianity has done and can continue to do much good in the world, but will be the most effective if it chooses its battles carefully. Surely the millions spent opposing Proposition 8 could have been better spent on encouraging adoption, providing health care, or creating economic opportunity.

Part II:

A friend of mine once said human perfection is an imperfection. We are finite beings incapable of seeing the big picture all at once. There is much in the world I do not understand, and not all of it can be explained away by free will. I agree with you that G-d does not make mistakes, and so I try always to see the purpose in all created things, or at least remember there is a purpose if I cannot see it. I also take people at their word.

I appreciate your concern for our futures. My view on the afterlife tends towards universalism, or at least eventual universalism, but I could be wrong. When it comes to morality, I tend to focus on consequences in this world. Marriage is a good thing, and while I tend to agree with you that a mother and father is ideal, two loving parents of any gender are better than one or zero.

Here's a question: is it better that a child be aborted before birth or be raised by two parents of the same gender?

~ Neshamah

dw41552

12-18-2008, 04:44 PM

MsTerry

To be honest I think it was when I was trying to advertise the cash leveraging opportunity which by the way, and this is for you too Zeno, I no longer promote, because zeno is right, it's not the kind of oportunity a Christian should be involved in. There's to much deception which is one of the reasons I gave it up.

The day I wrote my first response I was actually looking for a way to cancel my membership, and when I was browsing through out the sight I stumbled upon this thread and felt led to respond.

God bless

Butch,
Since you are a christian and probably have to tell thewholetruth how did you happen upon Wacco.bb?

dw41552

12-18-2008, 05:08 PM

Hey Zeno

I assure you I'm neither. It is only by the Grace of my God and my faith in Him that I am saved. I'm just as much a sinner as anyone else, and I still make mistakes This is why I need God's grace and my faith. Although I do try my best to be righteous.

Zeno I cast no stones because I myself am a sinner and it is not up to me who gets punished. As a Christian it is my responsibility to Share God's word. it is my #one purpose in life, and I try to stay humble in the process.

Sure I'm going through a bit of a tough time right now but it's Ok. I'm learning from it, and I know my faith will get me through. It's an awesome feeling. I just wish everyone could feel and experience the awesomeness of God that I do.

God Bless

I was responding to what I perceived as your self-righteousness, your sanctimoniousness. That's why I pointed out that you were (are?) promoting a cash leveraging network - some Ponzi scheme?? - and dragging people into shady money manipulation.

I understand. These are difficult times, we all need to feed and house the people we are responsible for, the children we care for.

John 8:7 comes to mind: "So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her."

dw41552

12-18-2008, 06:07 PM

Hey Braggi

Not at all. I stumbled upon this gentleman's question and simply answered it. I don't think I've had a response from the original poster but I sure have from dozens of others. I'm just trying to answer those that pose a lagitimate question that's all. Everyone has the right to question my beliefs, but if I cut and run that wouldn't say much about me or my beliefs would it?

God bless

You seem really obsessed with this dw41552. Nice name there, BTW.

Here's the classic study: https://www.philosophy-religion.org/handouts/homophobia.htm

-Jeff

Photoguy

12-18-2008, 06:29 PM

The other day we were driving on the highway and there were almost no cars when it should have been busy, my friend said maybe it was the rapture, then I thought watch out for falling airplanes, then I realized I know a bunch of pilots and I am sure none of them would be beamed up or whatever, then we hit traffic and realized it was all a false alarm.
The day after the rapture all us Wacconians are going to have to figure out where we are going to hold the party!
:partyindahouse:

Sylph

12-18-2008, 06:37 PM

Sylph I am not your enemy. When I came here I saw a question and I felt led to answer it. I've said nothing bad about anyone, I've not belittled anyone, and I've not elevated myself above anyone. I've been nothing but kind, and respectful. All I've done is shared what I know to be true. I've been open and honest and explained what I believe and why I believe it. You see this is the difference between those of us who believe and those who do not. I reach out with love and compassion and most of you lash back with anger and hostility. So I ask who's way of handling an intelligent converation is better, yours or ours?

I don't believe I have been hostile or even unfriendly to you in any way, DW. I posted the bumper stickers because they were apropos and I thought they were funny.
I really respect your remaining polite and patient with everyone here. Nobody should make fun of your or anyone's religious beliefs. Like you, I don't believe in astrology, but it wouldn't be useful to argue about it here on Wacco!
I am against anyone trying to "out" you or dredge up personal information about you. We should be judged solely on our posts, IMO.
I really liked Conrad's response. Religion can transform people, for the better, and I believe it has been 'life-saving' for you and for many others. However, religious people do not have a monopoly on altruism and trying to make the world a better place.
I don't think anyone can convince you that homosexuality is a genetic thing. Actually, after my latest bout of reading, I realize that it is partly genetic and partly environmental. The fact that identical twins are significantly more likely to be gay, even if raised separately, shows that there is a huge genetic component. If you clicked on the links in my post, you could see more figures.
I too, believe that sometimes, what fate hands us, that seems tragic, turns out to be a 'blessing in disguise'. My cancer at a young age gave me a new attitude on life. I wouldn't necessarily wish I hadn't had that experience. But, sometimes, it is really difficult to see what good thing can be had out of a tragedy. My husband's dad died of a spider bite in his late thirties, leaving a devastated family. After all these years, it's difficult to understand what the grand plan was.
Anyway, I have no animosity toward you, personally. I wish you nothing but the best!

Braggi

12-18-2008, 10:14 PM

Mam, there is no need for sarcasm. However I will answer you because you ask a great question. And I am not a holy man. I have no power of my own. Any power is of Jesus in me.

To answer your question. We do not. Have you ever heard of the rapture?
...

No. Haven't heard of it. Can you please find the place in the Holy Bible it is mentioned? It's not in those verses you quoted. BTW, what translation is that?

Another thing: where is it that Jesus said the Kingdom of Heaven is located?

-Jeff

Braggi

12-18-2008, 10:27 PM

... I don't think I've had a response from the original poster but I sure have from dozens of others. ...

The original poster was banned a while back. Got a little nasty in some posts.

I do believe his spirit lives on and is having an influence in the discussion.

-Jeff

dw41552

12-19-2008, 12:40 AM

MsTerry

12-19-2008, 03:01 AM

Butch,

Now you are playing God.
I did do what you you suggested, but you did not do what you promised.
That makes you either insincere or a Christian liar.

MsTerry

There is no need to go on because we both know you didn't do as I suggest with all sencerety. Your sarcasm gives you away. And even though there are many in heaven, you cannot speak to the departed. The only one you can have any contact with is Jesus.

Zeno Swijtink

12-19-2008, 07:32 AM

dw41552

12-19-2008, 12:14 PM

MsTerry

If you sware to me you really did do what I suggested I will give you some names of people I know are in Heaven.

Butch

Butch,

Now you are playing God.
I did do what you you suggested, but you did not do what you promised.
That makes you either insincere or a Christian liar.

dw41552

12-19-2008, 12:57 PM

But there is Design behind homosexuality. Apparently, to make it more likely that for every man there is a woman, He created the "fraternal birth order effect:" it true that the more older full brothers or half brothers you have with the same mother the more likely it is that you are homosexual. (Apparently, each older brother increases the odds of being gay by 33%.)

Ok so that means the odds of my next oldest brother being gay increase by 33% and my little brother by 66%. Got ya, but changes nothing. There's still the fact that my little brother is the least likely out of us all that would swing that way. And what are the odds. These statistics mean nothing without numbers. Is it 1 in 10, 100, 1000, 10,000, 100,000, 1,000,000,

What a coincidence, (or is it, and what are the odds :):) I was curious and looked at your profile to see how old you are and noticed our birth dates are the same.

Have a good one

You misunderstood. Each older brother increases the odds of being gay by 33%: So if the chance of being gay for a first born male is 2%, the chance of chance of being gay for a second born male who has an older brother with the same mother is 2.66%, 0.66% being 33% of 2%.

Zeno Swijtink

12-19-2008, 03:26 PM

But there is Design behind homosexuality. Apparently, to make it more likely that for every man there is a woman, He created the "fraternal birth order effect:" it true that the more older full brothers or half brothers you have with the same mother the more likely it is that you are homosexual. (Apparently, each older brother increases the odds of being gay by 33%.)

Ok so that means the odds of my next oldest brother being gay increase by 33% and my little brother by 66%. Got ya, but changes nothing. There's still the fact that my little brother is the least likely out of us all that would swing that way. And what are the odds. These statistics mean nothing without numbers. Is it 1 in 10, 100, 1000, 10,000, 100,000, 1,000,000,

What a coincidence, (or is it, and what are the odds :):) I was curious and looked at your profile to see how old you are and noticed our birth dates are the same.

Have a good one

If you are interested read some of the top ranked studies in this Google search (https://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en-us&q=fraternal+birth+order+homosexuality&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8).

Studies differ, but most put the percentage of homosexuality among men around 5%, that is 1 in 20.

dw41552

12-19-2008, 05:25 PM

Zeno

I did as you asked and checked out several sights. only on the first page.

Now here's one I found for you:

https://www.soc.duke.edu/~jmoody77/205a/ecp/bearman_bruckner_ajs.pdf

God Bless

If you are interested read some of the top ranked studies in this Google search (https://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en-us&q=fraternal+birth+order+homosexuality&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8).

Studies differ, but most put the percentage of homosexuality among men around 5%, that is 1 in 20.

MsTerry

12-20-2008, 03:46 AM

Butch,

I did what you offered without hesitation because of it's simplicity and my desire to experience what others claim to be true.
The only voice I heard was my own.
Are you suggesting that I am Jesus Christ?
Or maybe that we are in heaven?

MsTerry

If you sware to me you really did do what I suggested I will give you some names of people I know are in Heaven.

Butch

Braggi

12-20-2008, 10:05 AM

You won't find the word rapture in any bible. It's just the name given that particular event.

The definitions given in the dictionary:

The state of being transported by a lofty emotion; ecstasy.
An expression of ecstatic feeling. Often used in the plural.
The transporting of a person from one place to another, especially to heaven.

The verses came from the New International Verion. You can check it out here: https://www.biblegateway.com/

Jesus did not say where heaven is located. No one knows but Him.

My theory, and it's just a theory is it is in another dimension. But no one will know for sure till we get there.

God Bless

We'll go bottom up in response: First, I am blessed, every day by numerous Gods and Goddesses, so thank you. My life is one huge blessing, even with the pains, trials and tribulations. I am grateful.

I think Jesus gave a number of hints about the "location" of Heaven that are overlooked because they are mostly "between the lines." The same is true for the location of "Hell."

I think it's really worth reading and taking to heart the definition of "rapture" you posted. Note that you don't really have to go anywhere to experience this ... as long as you accept that Heaven is an experience or a state of being, and that you can access this state any time as long as your circumstances allow. I personally don't believe you need to wait for death to experience rapture or Heaven. Nor do I think the suffering in Hell comes after death. I think these are states of being one must become aware of in order to either enjoy or escape from.

I think all of the great spiritual teachers had and have similar messages. Ram Dass (Richard Alpert) sums it up well when he teaches: Be Here Now.

I think one of the great errors of Christianity is that it missed the most important teaching of Jesus and that is to live fully in the present; a lesson He taught over and over. Imagine if you appeared for judgement before your God and were asked, "How did you enjoy life in My Kingdom?" Is your only answer going to be that you missed it because you were waiting for it to come around ... later?

May you also be blessed,

-Jeff

Valley Oak

12-21-2008, 04:16 PM

I hope you don't cut and run on these, Butch:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8RV46fsmx6E&NR=1
AND:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeSSwKffj9o&NR=1

Edward
The original poster

Hey Braggi

Not at all. I stumbled upon this gentleman's question and simply answered it. I don't think I've had a response from the original poster but I sure have from dozens of others. I'm just trying to answer those that pose a lagitimate question that's all. Everyone has the right to question my beliefs, but if I cut and run that wouldn't say much about me or my beliefs would it?

God bless

dw41552

12-21-2008, 07:24 PM

We'll go bottom up in response: First, I am blessed, every day by numerous Gods and Goddesses, so thank you. My life is one huge blessing, even with the pains, trials and tribulations. I am grateful.

Sorry Jeff, their is only one God. Think about it. What would be the use of several gods or godesses, when one God can do it all. A lot simlper for us to follow and understand. The one and only true God is not the author of confusion.

Malachi 2:10 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=46&chapter=2&verse=10&version=50&context=verse)
[ Treachery of Infidelity ] Have we not all one Father? Has not one God created us? Why do we deal treacherously with one another By profaning the covenant of the fathers?
Mark 12:32 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=48&chapter=12&verse=32&version=50&context=verse)
So the scribe said to Him, “Well said, Teacher. You have spoken the truth, for there is one God, and there is no other but He.
Romans 3:30 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=3&verse=30&version=50&context=verse)
since there is one God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith.
1 Corinthians 8:6 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=53&chapter=8&verse=6&version=50&context=verse)
yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.
Ephesians 4:6 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=56&chapter=4&verse=6&version=50&context=verse)
one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all
1 Timothy 2:5 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=61&chapter=2&verse=5&version=50&context=verse)
For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus,
James 2:19 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=66&chapter=2&verse=19&version=50&context=verse)
You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble!

I think Jesus gave a number of hints about the "location" of Heaven that are overlooked because they are mostly "between the lines." The same is true for the location of "Hell."

Could you please share with me one verse that gives a hint of where Heaven may be.

I think it's really worth reading and taking to heart the definition of "rapture" you posted. Note that you don't really have to go anywhere to experience this ... as long as you accept that Heaven is an experience or a state of being, and that you can access this state any time as long as your circumstances allow. I personally don't believe you need to wait for death to experience rapture or Heaven. Nor do I think the suffering in Hell comes after death. I think these are states of being one must become aware of in order to either enjoy or escape from.

If you'll notice, definition number three does indeed represent going somewhere.
3. The transporting of a person from one place to another, especially to heaven.

According to God the Heaven I'm going to will be much better than anything I could possibly experience in this world.

Matthew 3:17 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=3&verse=17&version=50&context=verse)
And suddenly a voice came from heaven, saying, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.” This would be impossible with your definition of heaven.
Matthew 5:12 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=5&verse=12&version=50&context=verse)
Rejoice and be exceedingly glad, for great is your reward in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you.
Matthew 11:25 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=11&verse=25&version=50&context=verse)
[ Jesus Gives True Rest ] At that time Jesus answered and said, “I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and prudent and have revealed them to babes. Signifies two seperate places.
Matthew 10:28 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=10&verse=28&version=50&context=verse)
And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Singifies a place not a state of mind.
2 Peter 2

1But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves. 2Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. 3In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.
4For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment

I think all of the great spiritual teachers had and have similar messages. I Ram Dass (Richard Alpert) sums it up well when he teaches: Be Here Now.

I think one of the great errors of Christianity is that it missed the most important teaching of Jesus and that is to live fully in the present; a lesson He taught over and over. Imagine if you appeared for judgement before your God and were asked, "How did you enjoy life in My Kingdom?" Is your only answer going to be that you missed it because you were waiting for it to come around ... later?

It's Ok to live fully in the present as long as how we're living it is according to God's will. Just because I became a Christian doesn't mean I don't or cannot enjoy life. Quite the contrary.I enjoy life much more as a Christian than I did before especially knowing where the end of my physical life will take me.
And this world is not God's kingdom, it belongs to satan. Were this God's kingdom it would be a perfect paradise. His kingdom is yet to come.

God Bless

We'll go bottom up in response: First, I am blessed, every day by numerous Gods and Goddesses, so thank you. My life is one huge blessing, even with the pains, trials and tribulations. I am grateful.

I think Jesus gave a number of hints about the "location" of Heaven that are overlooked because they are mostly "between the lines." The same is true for the location of "Hell."

I think it's really worth reading and taking to heart the definition of "rapture" you posted. Note that you don't really have to go anywhere to experience this ... as long as you accept that Heaven is an experience or a state of being, and that you can access this state any time as long as your circumstances allow. I personally don't believe you need to wait for death to experience rapture or Heaven. Nor do I think the suffering in Hell comes after death. I think these are states of being one must become aware of in order to either enjoy or escape from.

I think all of the great spiritual teachers had and have similar messages. Ram Dass (Richard Alpert) sums it up well when he teaches: Be Here Now.

I think one of the great errors of Christianity is that it missed the most important teaching of Jesus and that is to live fully in the present; a lesson He taught over and over. Imagine if you appeared for judgement before your God and were asked, "How did you enjoy life in My Kingdom?" Is your only answer going to be that you missed it because you were waiting for it to come around ... later?

May you also be blessed,

-Jeff

Zeno Swijtink

12-21-2008, 08:41 PM

Sorry Jeff, [there] is only one God. Think about it. What would be the use of several gods or godesses, when one God can do it all. A lot simpler for us to follow and understand. The one and only true God is not the author of confusion.

"What would be the use of several gods or godesses, when one God can do it all? A lot simpler for us to follow and understand."

This is a revealing question. People who subscribe to the One God theory think there is One Thing that needs to be done for us ("do it"), and that He can do it all. It's a form of Paternalism.

People who subscribe to some form of paganism, polytheism, Many Gods, Fairies, Powers, Energies, hold I think that nothing is settled, all is flux, and some some see these gods and goddesses as friends and foes in an eternal conversation.

The Bible does not say that there is only one god. There is only one god the Jews should worship, Jahweh, but the peoples the Israelites fight when they conquer Palestine, have their own gods.

The "covenant" refers to the contract between Abraham and Jahweh, in which Jahweh made a covenant with Abraham that He would bless Abraham's descendants making them more numerous than the stars. [Since there are about 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 in the Universe let's hope he did not mean this literally!]

Even within the Jewish realm of the covenant Satan functions as another, be it minor, god. In the New Testament, Satan is mentioned as "the god of this world" (2 Corinthians 4:4).

dw41552

12-21-2008, 09:16 PM

Hey Valley Oak

I only cut and run from that who seeks to destoy my soul, satan.

I watched the first video and only a part of the second, because of course I do not agree. I also could send you to hundreds of videos promoting my beliefs, but I would rather share with you what comes from my heart. I do not live by words of man, but by the word of God. If you want to believe the words of athiests that is certainly your choice to make, not mine. But I would be careful who you believe, because there are many people who would lead you to the desruction of your soul, and I believe these people in the videos are some of them. These people are famous and heavily involved in the media. The Media is one of satan's most powerful tools he uses to try an trip people up. Obviously it's working, you seem to believe them.

Matthew 7:15 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=7&verse=15&version=50&context=verse)
[ You Will Know Them by Their Fruits ] “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves.
Matthew 7:14-16 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=7&verse=14&end_verse=16&version=50&context=context) (in Context) Matthew 7 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=7&version=50&context=chapter) (Whole Chapter)
Matthew 24:11 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=24&verse=11&version=50&context=verse)
Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many.
Matthew 24:10-12 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=24&verse=10&end_verse=12&version=50&context=context) (in Context) Matthew 24 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=24&version=50&context=chapter) (Whole Chapter)
2 Peter 2:1 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=68&chapter=2&verse=1&version=50&context=verse)
[ Destructive Doctrines ] But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction.
2 Peter 2:1-3 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=68&chapter=2&verse=1&end_verse=3&version=50&context=context) (in Context) 2 Peter 2 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=68&chapter=2&version=50&context=chapter) (Whole Chapter)
1 John 4:1 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=69&chapter=4&verse=1&version=50&context=verse)
Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
1 John 4:1-3 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=69&chapter=4&verse=1&end_verse=3&version=50&context=context) (in Context) 1 John 4 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=69&chapter=4&version=50&context=chapter) (Whole Chapter)

Look, if there's nothing to what I've been saying then why has Christianity continued to grow for over 2000 years now. Why are so many peoples lives changed for the better when they take that all important step of faith.
I would challenge any athiest to give me an example of one good thing athieism has done for them. The sad thing about an athiest is they have no hope. According to them they live, they die, they cease to exist. How sad. I could not imagine going through life hopeless. And why is it so important for people like those in the video to try and crush peoples hope. What good can possibly come of it. So more people can come to live the hopeless lives that they live, (misery loves company). Or have they made a deal with the devil.

There's only two ways to live life, and nothing in between. We either live God's way, or we live satan's way.

If I step out in faith and nothing I've said is true I lose nothing.
If I don't step out in faith and everything I've said is true, I lose my soul.

I personally am not willing to risk my soul as well as those around me, over two videos made by the lost, are you?

God bless

I hope you don't cut and run on these, Butch:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8RV46fsmx6E&NR=1
AND:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeSSwKffj9o&NR=1

Edward
The original poster

MsTerry

12-21-2008, 10:06 PM

Butch,
I am still waiting for deliverance.
Are you going to keep your word?
Butch,

I did what you offered without hesitation because of it's simplicity and my desire to experience what others claim to be true.
The only voice I heard was my own.
Are you suggesting that I am Jesus Christ?
Or maybe that we are in heaven?

dw41552

12-21-2008, 11:52 PM

MsTerry

Matthew 17:3 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=17&verse=3&version=50&context=verse)
And behold, Moses and Elijahappeared to them, talking with Him.
Matthew 17:2-4 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=17&verse=2&end_verse=4&version=50&context=context) (in Context) Matthew 17 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=17&version=50&context=chapter) (Whole Chapter)
Matthew 17:4 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=17&verse=4&version=50&context=verse)
Then Peter answered and said to Jesus, “Lord, it is good for us to be here; if You wish, let us make here three tabernacles: one for You, one for Moses, and one for Elijah.”
Matthew 17:3-5 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=17&verse=3&end_verse=5&version=50&context=context) (in Context) Matthew 17 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=17&version=50&context=chapter) (Whole Chapter)
Mark 9:4 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=48&chapter=9&verse=4&version=50&context=verse)
And Elijah appeared to them with Moses, and they were talking with Jesus.
Mark 9:3-5 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=48&chapter=9&verse=3&end_verse=5&version=50&context=context) (in Context) Mark 9 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=48&chapter=9&version=50&context=chapter) (Whole Chapter)
Mark 9:5 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=48&chapter=9&verse=5&version=50&context=verse)
Then Peter answered and said to Jesus, “Rabbi, it is good for us to be here; and let us make three tabernacles: one for You, one for Moses, and one for Elijah”—
Mark 9:4-6 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=48&chapter=9&verse=4&end_verse=6&version=50&context=context) (in Context) Mark 9 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=48&chapter=9&version=50&context=chapter) (Whole Chapter)
Luke 9:30 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=49&chapter=9&verse=30&version=50&context=verse)
And behold, two men talked with Him, who were Moses and Elijah,
Luke 9:29-31 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=49&chapter=9&verse=29&end_verse=31&version=50&context=context) (in Context) Luke 9 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=49&chapter=9&version=50&context=chapter) (Whole Chapter)
Luke 9:33 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=49&chapter=9&verse=33&version=50&context=verse)
Then it happened, as they were parting from Him, that Peter said to Jesus, “Master, it is good for us to be here; and let us make three tabernacles: one for You, one for Moses, and one for Elijah”—not knowing what he said.
Hebrews 11:5 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=65&chapter=11&verse=5&version=50&context=verse)
By faith Enoch was taken away so that he did not see death, “and was not found, because God had taken him”; for before he was taken he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
Hebrews 11:4-6 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=65&chapter=11&verse=4&end_verse=6&version=50&context=context) (in Context) Hebrews 11 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=65&chapter=11&version=50&context=chapter) (Whole Chapter)
Genesis 5:23 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=1&chapter=5&verse=23&version=50&context=verse)
So all the days of Enoch were three hundred and sixty-five years.
Genesis 5:22-24 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=1&chapter=5&verse=22&end_verse=24&version=50&context=context) (in Context) Genesis 5 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=1&chapter=5&version=50&context=chapter) (Whole Chapter)
Genesis 5:24 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=1&chapter=5&verse=24&version=50&context=verse)
And Enoch walked with God; and he was not, for God took him.
Genesis 5:23-25 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=1&chapter=5&verse=23&end_verse=25&version=50&context=context) (in Context) Genesis 5 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=1&chapter=5&version=50&context=chapter) (Whole Chapter)
Luke 11:2 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=49&chapter=11&verse=2&version=50&context=verse)
So He said to them, “When you pray, say: Our Father in heaven, Hallowed be Your name. Your kingdom come. Your will be done On earth as it is in heaven.
Luke 11:1-3 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=49&chapter=11&verse=1&end_verse=3&version=50&context=context) (in Context) Luke 11 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=49&chapter=11&version=50&context=chapter) (Whole Chapter)
Philippians 2:10 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=57&chapter=2&verse=10&version=50&context=verse)
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth,
Philippians 2:9-11 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=57&chapter=2&verse=9&end_verse=11&version=50&context=context) (in Context) Philippians 2 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=57&chapter=2&version=50&context=chapter) (Whole Chapter)

I hope that's enough for you. If not then all that's left is pray for you.

I have never once audibly heard Jesus's voice. Does not mean he doesn't exist. I can't hear a tree fall in the forest yet I know it makes a noise.
I know He exists because of all of the wonderful things He does for me because of my faith. I assure you He will never reveal Himself to you because of your unbelief until the day when it will be to late. You say you have done what I have suggested, but you have not believed, because you look for a voice or a vision, something you can hear or see instead of just having faith. This will be the last of your responses I will respond to as I've made myself very clear on what I believe. So choose to except it or not.

Besides God has already revealed Himself to you through me, yet you still do not believe.

God Bless

Quote=MsTerry;77818]Butch,
I am still waiting for deliverance.
Are you going to keep your word?[/quote]

dw41552

12-22-2008, 12:47 AM

Hey Zeno

The Bible does not say that there is only one God. There is only one God the Jews should worship, Jahweh, but the peoples the Israelites fight when they conquer Palestine, have there own gods.

I don't know what bible you read, but mine says many times there is only one God, not just for the jews, but for all. I don't know what you get from these verses, but one God is what I get.

Malachi 2:10 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=46&chapter=2&verse=10&version=50&context=verse)
[ Treachery of Infidelity ] Have we not all one Father? Has not one God created us? Why do we deal treacherously with one another By profaning the covenant of the fathers?
Mark 12:32 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=48&chapter=12&verse=32&version=50&context=verse)
So the scribe said to Him, “Well said, Teacher. You have spoken the truth, for there is one God, and there is no other but He.
Romans 3:30 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=3&verse=30&version=50&context=verse)
since there is one God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith.
1 Corinthians 8:6 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=53&chapter=8&verse=6&version=50&context=verse)
yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.
Ephesians 4:6 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=56&chapter=4&verse=6&version=50&context=verse)
one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all
1 Timothy 2:5 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=61&chapter=2&verse=5&version=50&context=verse)
For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus,
James 2:19 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=66&chapter=2&verse=19&version=50&context=verse)
You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble!
Exodus 20:5 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=2&chapter=20&verse=5&version=50&context=verse)
you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me,
Exodus 20:4-6 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=2&chapter=20&verse=4&end_verse=6&version=50&context=context) (in Context) Exodus 20 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=2&chapter=20&version=50&context=chapter) (Whole Chapter)

There are many false Gods, But I worship the one and only true God, the same one everyone should be worshiping.

The first of the Ten Commandments

Exodus 20:3 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=2&chapter=20&verse=3&version=50&context=verse)
“You shall have no other gods before Me.
Exodus 20:2-4 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=2&chapter=20&verse=2&end_verse=4&version=50&context=context) (in Context) Exodus 20 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=2&chapter=20&version=50&context=chapter) (Whole Chapter)
Deuteronomy 5:7 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=5&chapter=5&verse=7&version=50&context=verse)
‘You shall have no other gods before Me.
Deuteronomy 5:6-8 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=5&chapter=5&verse=6&end_verse=8&version=50&context=context) (in Context) Deuteronomy 5 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=5&chapter=5&version=50&context=chapter) (Whole Chapter)

Satan is the god of all evil, just another false god, he is not the one and only true God that all are to worship. After all God created him.

God Bless

quote=Zeno Swijtink;77808]"What would be the use of several gods or godesses, when one God can do it all? A lot simpler for us to follow and understand."

This is a revealing question. People who subscribe to the One God theory think there is One Thing that needs to be done for us ("do it"), and that He can do it all. It's a form of Paternalism.

People who subscribe to some form of paganism, polytheism, Many Gods, Fairies, Powers, Energies, hold I think that nothing is settled, all is flux, and some some see these gods and goddesses as friends and foes in an eternal conversation.

The Bible does not say that there is only one god. There is only one god the Jews should worship, Jahweh, but the peoples the Israelites fight when they conquer Palestine, have there own gods.

The "covenant" refers to the contract between Abraham and Jahweh, in which Jahweh made a covenant with Abraham that He would bless Abraham's descendants making them more numerous than the stars. [Since there are about 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 in the Universe let's hope he did not mean this literally!]

Even within the Jewish realm of the covenant Satan functions as another, be it minor, god. In the New Testament, Satan is mentioned as "the god of this world" (2 Corinthians 4:4).[/quote]

MsTerry

12-22-2008, 03:07 AM

MsTerry
I have never once audibly heard Jesus's voice.

Butch,
The Question is who do you know in Heaven?
Your answer;Jesus
But according to your religion he is part of the holy trinity, so he doesn't count as a person.
Can I talk to him?
You said yes, get down on your knee etc.
Now you are telling us, Jesus does not talk to you.
Who is confused now?

Zeno Swijtink

12-22-2008, 09:00 AM

Hey Zeno

I don't know what bible you read, but mine says many times there is only one God, not just for the jews, but for all. I don't know what you get from these verses, but one God is what I get.

Malachi 2:10 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=46&chapter=2&verse=10&version=50&context=verse)
[ Treachery of Infidelity ] Have we not all one Father? Has not one God created us? Why do we deal treacherously with one another By profaning the covenant of the fathers?

Dear Davaughn,

Immediately after this passage you quote from the Book of Malachi (fl 420 BCE) this prophet writes:

Judah has dealt treacherously,
And an abomination has been committed in Israel and in Jerusalem,
For Judah has profaned
The LORD’s holy institution which He loves:
He has married the daughter of a foreign god. (Malachi 2:11)

I don't think this passage should be interpret literally, but I think it alludes to an element of "henoism" in the Old Testament. "Henotheism (Greek εἷς θεός heis theos "one god") is a term coined by Max Müller, to mean worshiping a single god while accepting the existence or possible existence of other deities" (quote from Wikipedia, see here (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henotheism).)

Although the Israelites, in the OT, had only one god, they accepted that the people around them had different gods. So they were not polytheistic, but their monotheism was different from that of later traditions, such as the early Christians, and the Islam, who claimed that there was only one god - the one they worshipped - and that other peoples worshipped a non-entity, just going through the motions of their rituals, without there being any deity to communicate with.

My own religious view I call "Mysterianism." Its sole belief is that it is all a mystery, that humanity is just scratching the surface of what's going on.

Mysterianism tentatively accepts evolution of the universe and of life, and sees humanity as having emerged through that evolution as one of the ways the universe became conscious of itself. This may put fundamental limitations of our ability to understand and grasp what's going on, and we may always, for the (brief?) remainder of the time we will be part of this dance of energy and matter, just scratching the surface.