I'm boycotting Whole Foods...

[bodegahead]

This whole thread has become Deja vu. Yes, we are such an enlightened community. Yet we respond 2,539 times to post regarding Whole Foods, Hundreds and probably thousands of post regarding the best resaurant to eat, yet less than five responses to a very poignant video that I posted regarding the strife and the courage of the people in Iran right now. Some times I really wonder. How enlightened are we?

[Philip Tymon]

Thank you flygal for reminding us of what the original issue was. After taking a deep breath, I think the appropriate responses are:

1. Are these accusations true? Just because the Organic Consumers Association says so doesn't necessarily make it so. I'm afraid I've found the OCA to be in error before. Has anyone ever asked Whole Foods to reply? Has anyone actually researched this?

2. Do Andys, Fircrest, Fiesta, Community Market, Food for Humans, Olivers, etc. also carry these products? If so, then how are they any better than Whole Foods?

3. If these accusations are true, is there a way to make the situation better? Has anyone attempted to talk to Whole Foods about how they evaluate what they carry and how they source their products?

I think the questions are all valid. If you really care and don't just want to go on an e-rant, find out the answers. Have you folks been outside of Sebastopol lately-- been to an in-laws house in Hayward or Merced or Omaha or Peoria-- seen what most Americans have in their kitchens? Sorry-- any way you cut it, Whole Foods is a vast improvement. There are something like 300,000,000 people in the United States and only about 7,000 of them live in Sebastopol. The rest are still eating Twinkies. In most of this country, Whole Foods is considered radical.

Also, when your head gets that light feeling, like taking nitrous oxide at the dentist, and you start floating away on your own glorious indigation, that's a good sign that you are having a fit of self-righteousness which, of course, justifies you in getting out the big hammer and smashing other people on the head with it. Unfortunately, no one really likes being smashed on the head with the hammer of self-righteousness nor does anyone actually learn anything that way. In response to the self-righteousness on this thread, I actually find myself shopping even more at Whole Foods-- I hardly ever used to shop there. The place seems really well put together, the food seems real good, and the people have an unfailingly good attitude. I also love Andys and Fiesta and Food for Humans and Olivers.

I will probably regret sticking my foot in.

Phil


Good Question......... I think that all this bickering has really gotten away from the original intent of the post. Therefore, I am posting it again here....

Breaking the Organic Monopoly and the “Natural” Foods Myth

Whole Food Market and United Natural Foods, Inc.: Undermining Our Organic FutureAfter four decades of hard work, the organic community has built up a $25 billion “certified organic” food and farming sector. This consumer-driven movement, under steady attack by the biotech and Big Food lobby, with little or no help from government, has managed to create a healthy and sustainable alternative to America’s disastrous, chemical and energy-intensive system of industrial agriculture.

However, the annual $50 billion natural food and products industry is threatening to undermine the organic movement by flooding the marketplace with conventional products greenwashed with “natural” labeling. "Natural," in the overwhelming majority of cases, translates to "conventional-with-a-green-veneer." Natural products are routinely produced using pesticides, chemical fertilizer, hormones, genetic engineering, and sewage sludge. "Natural","all-natural," and "sustainable," products in most cases are neither backed up by rules and regulations, nor a Third Party certifier. These are label claims that are neither policed nor monitored. For an evaluation of eco-labels see the Consumers Union Eco-Label (https://www.eco-labels.org/) website.

For example:

* Tests Show Widespread (https://www.organicconsumers.org/articles/article_18100.cfm) Presence of GMOs in So-Called "Natural" Foods

* So-called "Natural" non-organic soy milk (https://www.organicconsumers.org/articles/article_18228.cfm) products, including leading brands such as "Silk,"are made with conventional soy lecithin, utilizing the hazardous chemical, Hexane, as an extraction agent.

* Dozens of "natural" and "made with organic" (https://www.organicconsumers.org/bodycare/index.cfm) personal care and household cleaning products contain known carcinogens, such as 1,4 Dioxane. Just about the only personal care products you can trust are those bearing the “USDA Organic” label.

* 90% or more of the vitamins and supplements (https://www.organicconsumers.org/nutricon.cfm) now on the market labeled as "Whole Foods," "natural" or "food based" are spiked with synthetic chemicals.

Despite the massive popularity and demand for certified organic products, retailers like Whole Foods Market, and wholesalers like United Natural Foods Inc., continue to push "natural" products at a premium price, while, in effect slowing down the growth of organics with their near market monopoly. In fact, the majority of products sold and distributed by Whole Foods Market and UNFI are not certified organic, but rather so-called "natural.” Meanwhile, independent and cooperative grocers often offer more certified organic products at competitive prices.
Will you stand up for organics?

Contact Whole Foods Market and UNFI today and tell them that you will buy only certified organic products for you and your family.


Visit Organic Consumers Website to Take Action (https://salsa.democracyinaction.org/o/642/campaign.jsp?campaign_KEY=27537)

[n4rky]

Thank you flygal for reminding us of what the original issue was. After taking a deep breath, I think the appropriate responses are:

-snip-

I can't answer questions 1 and 2 properly. I will acknowledge that they are worthwhile questions.


3. If these accusations are true, is there a way to make the situation better? Has anyone attempted to talk to Whole Foods about how they evaluate what they carry and how they source their products?

This strikes me as naive. Whole Foods is far too large an operation to care to respond to this sort of thing, any more than they are willing to respond to challenges regarding their labor practices. Sorry, but this is capitalism at work; a few customers in Sebastopol trail far behind in a list of concerns when they're making money hand over fist all over the country (this is the one supermarket chain that is expanding by leaps and bounds--despite a few conversations like this thread--while traditional chains appear stagnant).


I think the questions are all valid. If you really care and don't just want to go on an e-rant, find out the answers. Have you folks been outside of Sebastopol lately-- been to an in-laws house in Hayward or Merced or Omaha or Peoria-- seen what most Americans have in their kitchens? Sorry-- any way you cut it, Whole Foods is a vast improvement.This is certainly true. And I'll have to confess that despite my concerns, I do most of my shopping at Whole Foods. This is because as a vegan, I have to make many, many more stops if I try to find what I need at alternative sources.


There are something like 300,000,000 people in the United States and only about 7,000 of them live in Sebastopol. The rest are still eating Twinkies. In most of this country, Whole Foods is considered radical.I think you might reconsider this claim if you saw the breadth of this chain. It is huge. It is hugely (in a capitalist sense) successful.


Also, when your head gets that light feeling, like taking nitrous oxide at the dentist, and you start floating away on your own glorious indigation, that's a good sign that you are having a fit of self-righteousness which, of course, justifies you in getting out the big hammer and smashing other people on the head with it.It seems to me that your finger points in the wrong direction.


Unfortunately, no one really likes being smashed on the head with the hammer of self-righteousness nor does anyone actually learn anything that way. In response to the self-righteousness on this thread, I actually find myself shopping even more at Whole Foods-- I hardly ever used to shop there.So you have not considered any of the issues that people have raised here. You have simply concluded that they/we are wrong and, in order to take revenge, decided to do the exact opposite of what is suggested.


The place seems really well put together, the food seems real good, and the people have an unfailingly good attitude.This statement is certainly true, at least in appearance. Having actually worked in customer service positions (something I hope I'll never do again), it also worries me. For whenever service appears as good as it does at Whole Foods, one should immediately question it.

Apparent subservience may mask another attitude beneath. And it would be very, very good to hear from ex-employees at this point.

In my experience, such subservience means that employees must internalize an attitude of inferiority to customers. "The customer is always right" would be a laughable claim if so many people didn't suffer so much for it.


I also love Andys and Fiesta and Food for Humans and Olivers.To the extent that people can use local stores, I applaud. I personally find them lacking in so many essentials, that I cannot regularly do this.


I will probably regret sticking my foot in.

PhilWhat I would suggest is that while you raise some excellent points, you also point an accusing finger, a finger which should be directed at yourself just as surely, if not more so, as at others.

[RussianRiverRattina]

One thing folks can do is to write a letter to the local store manager & cc it to the corporate CEO explaining your concerns & referring them to the thread on this list. Yes, corporations care a lot about money & the bottom line, but they also care a lot about their corporate image & their "brand". Corporations do respond to consumer pressure ... why do you think Walmart now lobbies for health care reform & McDonalds now offers salads?

[flygal]

[/i]
Barry, Please dare not to say it. It's just one more label that encourages some to feel "special" or "chosen" which promotes self righteousness or smugness. Who among us can really assert that we're more "conscious" than anyone else.

It calls to mind the old story of Jesus standing up to the mob about to stone a transgressor. He declares "Let any who have not sinned cast the first stone" at which point an old lady steps up and chucks a rock, and of course the entire mob follows suit, to which Jesus replies,
"Ma, sometimes you can really piss me off!" :hilarious:
Photo

The way I see it is, nobody is better than anybody else, really. Everyone has a purpose to fulfill, and (hopefully) has a cause or two they are passionate about--mine just happens to be the food system. So, if I can open the eyes of just one more person on this planet who makes a change in the way they eat, then that feels good to me.

I also travel out of what I call my "little green bubble" (AKA Sonoma County) at least 5 times a year, and I see how the rest of the country eats. I think it is mostly due to lack of education on the true story of the current food systems. I sincerely believe that if more people really knew what they were eating, changes would occur. However, there is progress being made and that is all we can hope for in any situation.

So what I am saying, is that people have many causes to believe in. Meaning, that same person who buys a Starbucks coffee everyday and eats McDonalds several times a week, might be fighting to save our parks, or working with the homeless population, fighting fires, educating our children, etc. etc. That is what is great about diversity. We all have a purpose to fulfill!

Personally, I enjoy writing about topics involving our food systems, helping people learn to cook, and switch to healthier diets. So that is what I am going to do, unless I find something that I am even more passionate about in the future. Peace!

[bodegahead]

I would really miss Whole Foods if it wasn't there. I really love the salad bar and sometimes it`s the healthiest food I eat in a day or two. Pacific Market is really good too, and from what I know those are the only two really good salad bars in town. But it`s a matter of logistics and proximity and if it`s to far out of my way I will skip it. I was very close to Whole Foods today and my body was saying it want`d something green and healthy. I came so close to going into Whole Foods cuz I new they had a great salad bar and some other really good fast stuff I could take to go. Then I remembered the Cornish game hen and burger beef that I took out of the freezer so I could defrost the freezer. And then I remembered all the rock cod fillet my neighbor gave me off the boat last night. And the wilting romaine lettuce in the fridge. Buying lettuce for a single person is not a very economical thing. Salad bar good. So I decide against going to Whole Foods. Why spend money when the fridge is full. Passing by Bill`s farm basket I thought I should get some stuff to satisfy the green craving. Got 3 organic over ripe bananas, 1 yellow peach, 2 small yellow squash ,1 small green squash and one yellow squash that looks like a spinning top, all for $2.11. Now I`m home bbq ing up the chicken and beef, should last a few days, and trying to figure out how to do this squash right, all with a beautiful sunset and lot of tweeting birds.
I guess Whole Foods is good for me, their deli is complete and healthy, the salad and soup bar are great and they are in my line of travel. That's very important.
I believe good things happen to good people. And good things will eventually prevail and thrive. My momma always said, if you keep doing something wrong, eventually it will catch up with you. From what I`ve seen, she was right
I guess if Whole Foods is as bad some people say it is, that someday the bad that is said to be doing will catch up with it. And it will either change or cease to exist.

[Photo Consultant]

One of the original points was that a corporation that presents itself as "natural" is actively the most powerful force undermining organic standards, small farmers and farm workers rights. A group of consumers has to care and be actively involved in order for the injustice to " catch up".

[The A Team]

Whole Foods Boss Says: "We sell a Bunch of Junk"
Try this linked article from Whole Foods founder Mr. Mackay :
about responsibility for junk food in their stores, obesity and more.

Whole Foods Boss: We Sell a 'Bunch of Junk' (https://www.organicconsumers.org/articles/article_18764.cfm)

[federico]

:hello:

Here's my first entry ever on WACCOBB; I'm a little nervous so be nice, okay! I'm a transplant from Maine, where we actually have ONE (1) Whole Foods in the entire state, and it is in Portland, the largest city. I have a story about them moving to town that informs my opinion of them...back in the day (seventies), there was merely our one food co-op; then, in the late 80s, three women employees each started their own local wholesome foods stores in the region, and they thrived. In about '02, Wild Oats moved RIGHT NEXT DOOR to the local wholesome foods store in Portland, and we were all concerned - will the local store survive, and it DID! Then in about '05, Whole Foods, bigger, moved in down the street and around the bend. BUT, they offered to buy out the local store, and hire ALL of the local employees. The local owner accepted, came on board to a nice management job, and MANY of the long time employees are still working at Whole Foods. So, I have a very good impression of them, and for many other reasons as well, which I can expound upon in the future. So, that's my sharing. AND I feel better now that I've jumped in, and found the water just fine!

[Sara S]

A really great way to fix the flat, round squash (if you want to take the time) is to parboil them a bit, scoop out the seedy insides, and fill with a mix of mayo and grated cheese, then pop under the broiler to melt the cheese and brown the top a bit. You can also add any seasonings you like to the cheese mix. The original recipe was for half mayo and half sour cream, but I don't usually bother with that.


I would really miss Whole Foods if it wasn't there. I really love the salad bar and sometimes it`s the healthiest food I eat in a day or two. Pacific Market is really good too, and from what I know those are the only two really good salad bars in town. But it`s a matter of logistics and proximity and if it`s to far out of my way I will skip it. I was very close to Whole Foods today and my body was saying it want`d something green and healthy. I came so close to going into Whole Foods cuz I new they had a great salad bar and some other really good fast stuff I could take to go. Then I remembered the Cornish game hen and burger beef that I took out of the freezer so I could defrost the freezer. And then I remembered all the rock cod fillet my neighbor gave me off the boat last night. And the wilting romaine lettuce in the fridge. Buying lettuce for a single person is not a very economical thing. Salad bar good. So I decide against going to Whole Foods. Why spend money when the fridge is full. Passing by Bill`s farm basket I thought I should get some stuff to satisfy the green craving. Got 3 organic over ripe bananas, 1 yellow peach, 2 small yellow squash ,1 small green squash and one yellow squash that looks like a spinning top, all for $2.11. Now I`m home bbq ing up the chicken and beef, should last a few days, and trying to figure out how to do this squash right, all with a beautiful sunset and lot of tweeting birds.
I guess Whole Foods is good for me, their deli is complete and healthy, the salad and soup bar are great and they are in my line of travel. That's very important.
I believe good things happen to good people. And good things will eventually prevail and thrive. My momma always said, if you keep doing something wrong, eventually it will catch up with you. From what I`ve seen, she was right
I guess if Whole Foods is as bad some people say it is, that someday the bad that is said to be doing will catch up with it. And it will either change or cease to exist.

[theindependenteye]

Friends, check out the WF CEO's op-ed in the WSJ of Aug 12, opposing plans for health care reform (really, insurance industry reform). He leads by quoting Margaret Thatcher: "The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money." Given that he is definitely among the Other People, whose wealth beggars the imagination, his opinion would certainly make sense to him. About as much sense as dismantling the civil society of the state of California in order to protect the royalty-free extraction of energy resources. Or refusing to return to past levels of taxation on the Megawealth folks, who used to pay their fare. Look at the crowds in LA waiting in line all night in the cold for the chance to get a tooth pulled or get a TB test. Am I the only one experiencing industrial-strength cognitive dissonance? I'm tempted to sink into a hissy-fit of rage, but actually, if we pointed at these clowns and began to laugh, out loud and in public, it would probably be a lot more fun, and maybe more effective. Charlie Chaplin did a really good number on Hitler. Tina nailed Sarah. Belly-laugh, anyone? -- Elizabeth Fuller

[scamperwillow]

And here's a comment from Daily Kos responding to that WSJ op-ed. I still shop at whole Foods - I find it less expensive than Pacific and more comprehensive than Andy's, but I may need to rethink:

To John Mackey at Whole Foods
by DarkSyde

Thu Aug 13, 2009 at 09:00:03 AM PDT

Since no one at Whole Foods Market Inc., can tell CEO and co-founder John Mackey just how bad he screwed up, I will. Mr. Mackey, your extremist views on employee benefits and unionization have, lucky for you, mostly flown under the progressive radar to date. Which is why pushing that luck with this screed on healthcare suggests you are either out of your flippin mind or have suffered a lapse in business acumen not seen since New Coke. And in the WSJ no less:

While we clearly need health-care reform, the last thing our country needs is a massive new health-care entitlement that will create hundreds of billions of dollars of new unfunded deficits and move us much closer to a government takeover of our health-care system. Instead, we should be trying to achieve reforms by moving in the opposite direction—toward less government control and more individual empowerment.

Mr. Mackey, I'm not sure if you understand who it is that shops at your organic grocery chain: a lot of progressives, vegetarians, professional and amateur athletes, and others who care so much about the environment and what they eat that they're still willing to shell out three bucks for an organic orange, even in the midst of the worst recession in sixty years. I was proud WFMI was based in my hometown of Austin, and defended it against most of the conservatives I knew growing up there, many of whom still hold your entire business in utter contempt. Some of them ridiculed me for shopping at Whole Foods, with all the "tree huggers and granola eaters and hippies" who, incidentally, made you a millionaire.

Mr. Mackey, you just shat all over your best customers. Given the years of pseudonymous postings on Yahoo finance slamming a competitor you were quietly trying to acquire at the time, double talk and unethical behavior arguably seems to be becoming a habit for you. So I will never, ever, shop at your stores again, unless you retract that op-ed, apologize for stabbing us in the back, or resign. In this day and age, it's just too easy to locate competitors. Until then, well, judging by the Whole Foods community forum, not to mention the discussion in Hopeful Skeptic's and Aptoklas' diaries, you've finally managed to universally piss off everyone. I predict the next few weeks of your life are going to suck, immensely.

Friends, check out the WF CEO's op-ed in the WSJ of Aug 12, opposing plans for health care reform (really, insurance industry reform). He leads by quoting Margaret Thatcher: "The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money."....

[cosmiccorn]

Here's the article from WSJ
(John Mackey: The Whole Foods Alternative to ObamaCare - WSJ.com (https://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204251404574342170072865070.html))
OPINION
AUGUST 11, 2009, 7:30 P.M. ET
The Whole Foods Alternative to ObamaCare
Eight things we can do to improve health care without adding to the deficit.
By JOHN MACKEY

"The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out
of other people's money."

—Margaret Thatcher


With a projected $1.8 trillion deficit for 2009, several trillions more in deficits projected over the next decade, and with both Medicare and Social Security entitlement spending about to ratchet up several notches over the next 15 years as Baby Boomers become eligible for both, we are rapidly running out of other people's money. These deficits are simply not sustainable. They are either going to result in unprecedented new taxes and inflation, or they will bankrupt us.

While we clearly need health-care reform, the last thing our country needs is a massive new health-care entitlement that will create hundreds of billions of dollars of new unfunded deficits and move us much closer to a government takeover of our health-care system. Instead, we should be trying to achieve reforms by moving in the opposite direction—toward less government control and more individual empowerment. Here are eight reforms that would greatly lower the cost of health care for everyone:

• Remove the legal obstacles that slow the creation of high-deductible health insurance plans and health savings accounts (HSAs). The combination of high-deductible health insurance and HSAs is one solution that could solve many of our health-care problems. For example, Whole Foods Market pays 100% of the premiums for all our team members who work 30 hours or more per week (about 89% of all team members) for our high-deductible health-insurance plan. We also provide up to $1,800 per year in additional health-care dollars through deposits into employees' Personal Wellness Accounts to spend as they choose on their own health and wellness.

Money not spent in one year rolls over to the next and grows over time. Our team members therefore spend their own health-care dollars until the annual deductible is covered (about $2,500) and the insurance plan kicks in. This creates incentives to spend the first $2,500 more carefully. Our plan's costs are much lower than typical health insurance, while providing a very high degree of worker satisfaction.

• Equalize the tax laws so that employer-provided health insurance and individually owned health insurance have the same tax benefits. Now employer health insurance benefits are fully tax deductible, but individual health insurance is not. This is unfair.

• Repeal all state laws which prevent insurance companies from competing across state lines. We should all have the legal right to purchase health insurance from any insurance company in any state and we should be able use that insurance wherever we live. Health insurance should be portable.

• Repeal government mandates regarding what insurance companies must cover. These mandates have increased the cost of health insurance by billions of dollars. What is insured and what is not insured should be determined by individual customer preferences and not through special-interest lobbying.

• Enact tort reform to end the ruinous lawsuits that force doctors to pay insurance costs of hundreds of thousands of dollars per year. These costs are passed back to us through much higher prices for health care.

• Make costs transparent so that consumers understand what health-care treatments cost. How many people know the total cost of their last doctor's visit and how that total breaks down? What other goods or services do we buy without knowing how much they will cost us?

• Enact Medicare reform. We need to face up to the actuarial fact that Medicare is heading towards bankruptcy and enact reforms that create greater patient empowerment, choice and responsibility.

• Finally, revise tax forms to make it easier for individuals to make a voluntary, tax-deductible donation to help the millions of people who have no insurance and aren't covered by Medicare, Medicaid or the State Children's Health Insurance Program.

Many promoters of health-care reform believe that people have an intrinsic ethical right to health care—to equal access to doctors, medicines and hospitals. While all of us empathize with those who are sick, how can we say that all people have more of an intrinsic right to health care than they have to food or shelter?

Health care is a service that we all need, but just like food and shelter it is best provided through voluntary and mutually beneficial market exchanges. A careful reading of both the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution will not reveal any intrinsic right to health care, food or shelter. That's because there isn't any. This "right" has never existed in America

Even in countries like Canada and the U.K., there is no intrinsic right to health care. Rather, citizens in these countries are told by government bureaucrats what health-care treatments they are eligible to receive and when they can receive them. All countries with socialized medicine ration health care by forcing their citizens to wait in lines to receive scarce treatments.

Although Canada has a population smaller than California, 830,000 Canadians are currently waiting to be admitted to a hospital or to get treatment, according to a report last month in Investor's Business Daily. In England, the waiting list is 1.8 million.

At Whole Foods we allow our team members to vote on what benefits they most want the company to fund. Our Canadian and British employees express their benefit preferences very clearly—they want supplemental health-care dollars that they can control and spend themselves without permission from their governments. Why would they want such additional health-care benefit dollars if they already have an "intrinsic right to health care"? The answer is clear—no such right truly exists in either Canada or the U.K.—or in any other country.

Rather than increase government spending and control, we need to address the root causes of poor health. This begins with the realization that every American adult is responsible for his or her own health.

Unfortunately many of our health-care problems are self-inflicted: two-thirds of Americans are now overweight and one-third are obese. Most of the diseases that kill us and account for about 70% of all health-care spending—heart disease, cancer, stroke, diabetes and obesity—are mostly preventable through proper diet, exercise, not smoking, minimal alcohol consumption and other healthy lifestyle choices.

Recent scientific and medical evidence shows that a diet consisting of foods that are plant-based, nutrient dense and low-fat will help prevent and often reverse most degenerative diseases that kill us and are expensive to treat. We should be able to live largely disease-free lives until we are well into our 90s and even past 100 years of age.

Health-care reform is very important. Whatever reforms are enacted it is essential that they be financially responsible, and that we have the freedom to choose doctors and the health-care services that best suit our own unique set of lifestyle choices. We are all responsible for our own lives and our own health. We should take that responsibility very seriously and use our freedom to make wise lifestyle choices that will protect our health. Doing so will enrich our lives and will help create a vibrant and sustainable American society.

Mr. Mackey is co-founder and CEO of Whole Foods Market Inc.



Friends, check out the WF CEO's op-ed in the WSJ of Aug 12, opposing plans for health care reform (really, insurance industry reform). He leads by quoting Margaret Thatcher: "The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money." Given that he is definitely among the Other People, whose wealth beggars the imagination, his opinion would certainly make sense to him. About as much sense as dismantling the civil society of the state of California in order to protect the royalty-free extraction of energy resources. Or refusing to return to past levels of taxation on the Megawealth folks, who used to pay their fare. Look at the crowds in LA waiting in line all night in the cold for the chance to get a tooth pulled or get a TB test. Am I the only one experiencing industrial-strength cognitive dissonance? I'm tempted to sink into a hissy-fit of rage, but actually, if we pointed at these clowns and began to laugh, out loud and in public, it would probably be a lot more fun, and maybe more effective. Charlie Chaplin did a really good number on Hitler. Tina nailed Sarah. Belly-laugh, anyone? -- Elizabeth Fuller

[bodegahead]

I really don`t like the Whole Foods corporation or what ever it is that they are. But if they have what I need, and have what I want and I can`t get it anywhere else without burning a bunch of gas, and as long as their employees are`t striking or protesting, then I am not going to go out of my way to shut them down. As I said previously, if their bad outweighs their good, eventually they will change or be gone. I only shop their when there is no sensible alternative. I think Macky is a jerk and the best thing and only acceptable thing to do is to get rid of him. Apologies not good enough in this case,

[DancingDeva]

Here's the article from WSJ
(John Mackey: The Whole Foods Alternative to ObamaCare - WSJ.com (https://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204251404574342170072865070.html))
OPINION
AUGUST 11, 2009, 7:30 P.M. ET
The Whole Foods Alternative to ObamaCare
Eight things we can do to improve health care without adding to the deficit.
By JOHN MACKEY

"The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out
of other people's money."

—Margaret Thatcher

...

Well its been a few weeks since I contributed something on this topic of the 'health' care 'reform' bill and I haven't been following it over these weeks due to much less internet access but I do notice that it seems to be a pretty emotional topic for people. This is understandable but I believe we really need to take a step back and examine the whole issue (and the bill) as analytically as possible.

Again I ask: who in this dialog has read the bill and really understands what it says? Or are we just being "knee jerk" and rooting for the bill because we believe in a nationalized 'health care'? Will THIS BILL on the table really give us what we want? Do we know exactly what we need and want and can it really be generalized to everyone? REALLY? As consumers we have one perspective. Employers have another.

I personally appreciate the perspective that WF CEO brings to the discussion and though I am not an owner of a big company, I can see that this is an issue that he has thought about a lot since it is a major part of being a business owner. I think Mackey made some great points and offered some valid solutions which are worth thinking about and examining along with all the rest of this issue!

There are no easy fixes or solutions here.

As I said in my previous post I think listening to people like Rep. Dr. Ron Paul and Dr. Mercola on this topic is worthwhile and we need to consider as Ron Paul mentions the history of what has happened with the health and insurance industry over the last 40 years. How do we see clearly where we need to go without an appreciation of where we are coming from?

We may want something from our government but what are you willing to give up to have that? The government doesn't give handouts 'for nothing'. There will be a price. Think about it! We're not going to get all this government intervention and buracracy without paying some price. I think if we read the bill we will find it proposes creating a HUGE burocracy (sorry about the spelling).

And I dare say I don't think most of us REALLY KNOW what this bill will deliver. That's why I recommend listening to some of the docs on this issue. I agree with Mackey that we need choices and to preserve our choices and I don't think the health care bill will do that.

So, rather than simply accepting that it must be good because our trusty leader wants it I suggest we roll up our sleeves and take a real good look at what it is they want to 'give' us and besides the needs it may (or may not) fulfill, what else is in it? What is in the fine print? Every bill of this proportion has plenty of that.

[n4rky]

I looked around for the whole case against Whole Foods today and posted my thoughts on my blog (https://www2.parts-unknown.org/serendipity/index.php?/archives/48-Surrender-at-the-grocery-store.html). In its entirety, it is a pretty damning and well documented case. I hit on a couple of highlights in my own thoughts, but there is more which I linked to in the body of the entry. I did not find comment on Whole Foods' treatment of suppliers.

I'll say it again: to those of you who are able to and actually do find what you need at other grocery stores, more power to you.

[Karen]

Oliver's has everything Whole Foods has and more...plus it's a lot cheaper with good sales every week.
Maybe you'd be interested in reading this article to see how Whole Foods is actually working to undermine the health of our community?

Why You Should Boycott Whole Foods (https://salsa.democracyinaction.org/dia/track.jsp?v=2&c=NpKw2xZmF0DNc4eiIzTHPUVm6pLjb7nW)
By Russell Mokhiber, CounterPunch
The company's CEO has just launched a major campaign to defeat a single payer national health insurance system. Read more » (https://salsa.democracyinaction.org/dia/track.jsp?v=2&c=n%2BLt%2BqzaMlQMsh3d8%2BL7GkVm6pLjb7nW)



I really don`t like the Whole Foods corporation or what ever it is that they are. But if they have what I need, and have what I want and I can`t get it anywhere else without burning a bunch of gas, and as long as their employees are`t striking or protesting, then I am not going to go out of my way to shut them down. As I said previously, if their bad outweighs their good, eventually they will change or be gone. I only shop their when there is no sensible alternative. I think Macky is a jerk and the best thing and only acceptable thing to do is to get rid of him. Apologies not good enough in this case,

[Karen]

According to Joshua Holland (article cited found below) "it's doubtful that at anytime in the history of our nation have a group of people been so furiously opposed to something that would so obviously be an improvement over what they now have. It's nothing less than a testament to the power of industry propaganda."


I'd have to agree. I've been a reader of Holland for a long time and he seems to consistently get it right.


10 Awesome Things That Would Happen if Health Reform Passes (https://salsa.democracyinaction.org/dia/track.jsp?v=2&c=F%2Fmt6c%2FKS4oKNYw4pWVMokVm6pLjb7nW)
By Joshua Holland, AlterNet
Forget the fear-mongering scare tactics of the right, here's how your life will actually be better. Read more » (https://salsa.democracyinaction.org/dia/track.jsp?v=2&c=o2Jg5v45HpPQ4nqthDtsrkVm6pLjb7nW)



Well its been a few weeks since I contributed something on this topic of the 'health' care 'reform' bill and I haven't been following it over these weeks due to much less internet access but I do notice that it seems to be a pretty emotional topic for people. This is understandable but I believe we really need to take a step back and examine the whole issue (and the bill) as analytically as possible.

Again I ask: who in this dialog has read the bill and really understands what it says? Or are we just being "knee jerk" and rooting for the bill because we believe in a nationalized 'health care'? Will THIS BILL on the table really give us what we want? Do we know exactly what we need and want and can it really be generalized to everyone? REALLY? As consumers we have one perspective. Employers have another.

I personally appreciate the perspective that WF CEO brings to the discussion and though I am not an owner of a big company, I can see that this is an issue that he has thought about a lot since it is a major part of being a business owner. I think Mackey made some great points and offered some valid solutions which are worth thinking about and examining along with all the rest of this issue!

There are no easy fixes or solutions here.

As I said in my previous post I think listening to people like Rep. Dr. Ron Paul and Dr. Mercola on this topic is worthwhile and we need to consider as Ron Paul mentions the history of what has happened with the health and insurance industry over the last 40 years. How do we see clearly where we need to go without an appreciation of where we are coming from?

We may want something from our government but what are you willing to give up to have that? The government doesn't give handouts 'for nothing'. There will be a price. Think about it! We're not going to get all this government intervention and buracracy without paying some price. I think if we read the bill we will find it proposes creating a HUGE burocracy (sorry about the spelling).

And I dare say I don't think most of us REALLY KNOW what this bill will deliver. That's why I recommend listening to some of the docs on this issue. I agree with Mackey that we need choices and to preserve our choices and I don't think the health care bill will do that.

So, rather than simply accepting that it must be good because our trusty leader wants it I suggest we roll up our sleeves and take a real good look at what it is they want to 'give' us and besides the needs it may (or may not) fulfill, what else is in it? What is in the fine print? Every bill of this proportion has plenty of that.

[bodegahead]

It`s an extra 40 minutes round trip and a couple gallons gas for me to get from the coast to Oliver`s as compared to WF. I really do like Olivers and enjoy shopping ther wheh I am nearby.
And as far as saying that WF is working to undremine the strenght of our communirty, I believe that`s a little far fetched. I think they are just out tring to make a buck. An overly big buck, but I still think that is their objective.

Oliver's has everything Whole Foods has and more...plus it's a lot cheaper with good sales every week.
Maybe you'd be interested in reading this article to see how Whole Foods is actually working to undermine the health of our community?

Why You Should Boycott Whole Foods (https://salsa.democracyinaction.org/dia/track.jsp?v=2&c=NpKw2xZmF0DNc4eiIzTHPUVm6pLjb7nW)
By Russell Mokhiber, CounterPunch
The company's CEO has just launched a major campaign to defeat a single payer national health insurance system. Read more » (https://salsa.democracyinaction.org/dia/track.jsp?v=2&c=n%2BLt%2BqzaMlQMsh3d8%2BL7GkVm6pLjb7nW)

[Karen]

You may be happy to learn that the Oliver's on Stony Point is only a little over 5 miles from WF, Sebastopol. I think it's worth it... I travel to Oliver's but Safeway is closer....am I making the wrong decision because of gas burning? Maybe...maybe not. It's so hard to be a human.


It`s an extra 40 minutes round trip and a couple gallons gas for me to get from the coast to Oliver`s as compared to WF. I really do like Olivers and enjoy shopping ther wheh I am nearby.
And as far as saying that WF is working to undremine the strenght of our communirty, I believe that`s a little far fetched. I think they are just out tring to make a buck. An overly big buck, but I still think that is their objective.

[Karen]

How would single payer health insurance prevent them from hocking their over-priced food? Are they also invested in the health insurance industry? I wonder just what is the motive of WF here? Hope you read the articles I sent ya!


It`s an extra 40 minutes round trip and a couple gallons gas for me to get from the coast to Oliver`s as compared to WF. I really do like Olivers and enjoy shopping ther wheh I am nearby.
And as far as saying that WF is working to undremine the strenght of our communirty, I believe that`s a little far fetched. I think they are just out tring to make a buck. An overly big buck, but I still think that is their objective.

[justme]

LMAO!!!!!!! :xtrmlaugh:

[n4rky]

How would single payer health insurance prevent them from hocking their over-priced food? Are they also invested in the health insurance industry? I wonder just what is the motive of WF here? Hope you read the articles I sent ya!

Of course it would not. John Mackey is Libertarian with a capital L and a capital C (for capitalism). That means he that while he acknowledges political hierarchy as a problem, he does not even acknowledge that economic hierarchy exists.

[federico]

How would single payer health insurance prevent them from hocking their over-priced food? Are they also invested in the health insurance industry? I wonder just what is the motive of WF here? Hope you read the articles I sent ya!


The Value of Whole Foods (WF)

Here's my second post on this board; I'm reflecting on my thirty years as an adult living in New England and Western Pennsylvania (Pittsburgh), ie NOT northern California; and now my two months living in Napa County.....

WF has provided much value to the communities where I've lived and worked, AND I also acknowledge that there are problems with this corporate mentality of WF. YES, the dynamics of positive - negative (yin-yang) exist simultaneously in the world!

Dynamics and dichotomies....

Such as driving an SUV, or 8 cylinder old car or truck to a WF; driving extra miles to another store; eating meat, or dairy, or drinking wine and alcohol; NOT showering into a bucket and schlepping the grey water to the yard; NOT spending some time every day on social change work (public option health care); having too much disposable money, while one-fifth of the world is hungry. And so on with my and your life....

How about the dichotomy of a 'holy attitude' about your opinions. I certainly fall into this almost ALL THE TIME. Somehow, I just KNOW that I am RIGHT! And I have certainly received some of this view in responses to my first post (a positive view of WF). You may remember that you were 'very correct' in your response to me...

Well, IMHO, this righteousness may be the most damaging personality - lifestyle trait. MLK Jr, and his long-time friend Thich Nhat Hanh, continuously remind(ed) us to pay attention to the heart, and act from a place of understanding the 'other' person.

So, can you appreciate this dichotomy about Whole Foods in my view? Can you understand that in Pittsburgh, PA., there really is NO other choice for thousands of shoppers who want to do the 'right thing' and buy organic? I admit that the dynamic co-op in Pittsburgh (with a booming credit union and veggie cafe as well) does NOT attract MANY people (it is three blocks from a VERY under-priviledged (poor) and mildly violent neighborhood (the 'hood' for August Wilson material). Many people are not all that comfortable shopping for food at a place with people with whom they cannot relate, in a hood that is threatening to them. I've been a co-op member here for nearly thirty years, and still shop there when I go 'home'....but MOST people want to shop elsewhere, like at WF.

In Pgh., WF decided to move to a LARGE, poor and bascially desolute neighborhood. They wanted to become the 'anchor' store in an urban redesign plan for this community. And it is working.....the neighborhood is starting to come back....

AND, I appreciate the anger w/the op-ed piece in the WSJ. I feel anger about that too! And I'm a strong believer in unions (yet I do not know if a co-op where the employees are organized).

I recall the GREAT film 'Food Inc', with Gary Hirshberg of New Hampshire, the founder of Stonyfield Yogurt -- he is MOST juiced these days that WAL MART (!) is carrying an entire section of organic foods! He basically smiles and shakes his head at us ole hippie types who are angry with WM and WON'T have anything to do with them. I can say I've never bought anything from a WALMART, BUT, more Americans go there than anywhere else. But you and I won't. I appreciate that too, for I feel that we are having some affect on WM, but maybe, just MAYBE, not as much affect as those who go there....

And now, today, tens of thousands of Americans are buying their organics at...WALMART....

Dichotomies (life) make me laugh and smile....at myself and my attitudes.

[tomcat]

Well, you could look at it this way too...
For years, us hippie types have been trying to 'change the world' by promoting organics & sustainable agriculture... and WE ARE WINNING!

You can now find organic foods at Target, Raleys, Safeway, Costco, as well as WF and our local health food stores.
That means that millions of people now have access to healthy food without crap in it and that millions of acres of farmland are now being farmed sustainably and with care.

Yes, I believe we are slowly winning and changing the way the world eats... one person at a time.

Great Job Everyone! Keep it up!
Tomcat


The Value of Whole Foods (WF)

Here's my second post on this board; I'm reflecting on my thirty years as an adult living in New England and Western Pennsylvania (Pittsburgh), ie NOT northern California; and now my two months living in Napa County.....

...

[Sara S]

Very well said, Federico! Just one correction, in this sentence:

"Well, IMHO, this righteousness may be the most damaging personality - lifestyle trait. MLK Jr, and his long-time friend Thich Nhat Hanh, continuously remind(ed) us to pay attention to the heart, and act from a place of understanding the 'other' person."

There is a huge difference between "righteous" and "self-righteous"; the latter is what you meant here, I'm sure.

Sara


The Value of Whole Foods (WF)

Here's my second post on this board; I'm reflecting on my thirty years as an adult living in New England and Western Pennsylvania (Pittsburgh), ie NOT northern California; and now my two months living in Napa County.....

WF has provided much value to the communities where I've lived and worked, AND I also acknowledge that there are problems with this corporate mentality of WF. YES, the dynamics of positive - negative (yin-yang) exist simultaneously in the world!

Dynamics and dichotomies....

Such as driving an SUV, or 8 cylinder old car or truck to a WF; driving extra miles to another store; eating meat, or dairy, or drinking wine and alcohol; NOT showering into a bucket and schlepping the grey water to the yard; NOT spending some time every day on social change work (public option health care); having too much disposable money, while one-fifth of the world is hungry. And so on with my and your life....

How about the dichotomy of a 'holy attitude' about your opinions. I certainly fall into this almost ALL THE TIME. Somehow, I just KNOW that I am RIGHT! And I have certainly received some of this view in responses to my first post (a positive view of WF). You may remember that you were 'very correct' in your response to me...

Well, IMHO, this righteousness may be the most damaging personality - lifestyle trait. MLK Jr, and his long-time friend Thich Nhat Hanh, continuously remind(ed) us to pay attention to the heart, and act from a place of understanding the 'other' person.

So, can you appreciate this dichotomy about Whole Foods in my view? Can you understand that in Pittsburgh, PA., there really is NO other choice for thousands of shoppers who want to do the 'right thing' and buy organic? I admit that the dynamic co-op in Pittsburgh (with a booming credit union and veggie cafe as well) does NOT attract MANY people (it is three blocks from a VERY under-priviledged (poor) and mildly violent neighborhood (the 'hood' for August Wilson material). Many people are not all that comfortable shopping for food at a place with people with whom they cannot relate, in a hood that is threatening to them. I've been a co-op member here for nearly thirty years, and still shop there when I go 'home'....but MOST people want to shop elsewhere, like at WF.

In Pgh., WF decided to move to a LARGE, poor and bascially desolute neighborhood. They wanted to become the 'anchor' store in an urban redesign plan for this community. And it is working.....the neighborhood is starting to come back....

AND, I appreciate the anger w/the op-ed piece in the WSJ. I feel anger about that too! And I'm a strong believer in unions (yet I do not know if a co-op where the employees are organized).

I recall the GREAT film 'Food Inc', with Gary Hirshberg of New Hampshire, the founder of Stonyfield Yogurt -- he is MOST juiced these days that WAL MART (!) is carrying an entire section of organic foods! He basically smiles and shakes his head at us ole hippie types who are angry with WM and WON'T have anything to do with them. I can say I've never bought anything from a WALMART, BUT, more Americans go there than anywhere else. But you and I won't. I appreciate that too, for I feel that we are having some affect on WM, but maybe, just MAYBE, not as much affect as those who go there....

And now, today, tens of thousands of Americans are buying their organics at...WALMART....

Dichotomies (life) make me laugh and smile....at myself and my attitudes.

[Barrie]

Boycotting is all and good, but it is a silent protest that takes time to have any effect. If you want to make a statement, then PICKET.

It seems to me that situation goes directly against the policies that WF seems to promote. I would imagine that many more people would cease shopping there, especially with the other excellent local grocery stores, if they were aware of the order.

I don't know what the picketing rules are in sebastopol, but I myslef would be happy to carry a sign and educate people. If the press ends up negative enough, WF can withdraw the subpeona (sp?).

If anyone else is interested in picketing, let me know. Also, pass on the article to as many people as you can, especially in other states who have WF, to spread the word. Grassroots activism!!

I am thoroughly sick of big businesses pushing out small business, and the God complex they develop. I vote with my dollar, and unless there is no way that I can find to get something from an small local business, I do not patronize big box stores.

I would be willing to pickett. It would be fun! When do you think is peak shopping time? I'll call the sebastopol police to see what the laws are.

Barrie 544-1893

[Dianala]

Mr. Mackey needs to be educated like the many white males who are in their own money towers. Someone send him the documentary "Unnatural Causes", as soon as possible. The health care backlash is about white privilege and keeping control big time.

Dianala



Below is an article about a recent boycott of whole foods being organized.
I will furnish anything anyone wants to order from UNFI aka MPW at the buyers club price plus a share of the delivery cost and you may contact me for a free catalog.
A.J.

Published on Saturday, August 15, 2009 by ABC News (https://abcnews.go.com/print?id=8322658)
Health Care Stirs Up Whole Foods CEO John Mackey,
Customers Boycott Organic Grocery Store

by Emily Friedman

Joshua has been taking the bus to his local Whole Foods in New York City every five days for the past two years. This week, he said he'll go elsewhere to fulfill his fresh vegetable and organic produce needs.

Customers are threatening to boycott Whole Foods stores after the company's CEO, John Mackey, wrote an op-ed discussing his ideas for health care reform.

"I will never shop there again," vowed Joshua, a 45-year-old blogger, who asked that his last name not be published.Like many of his fellow health food fanatics, Joshua said he will no longer patronize the store after learning about Whole Foods Market Inc.'s CEO John Mackey's views on health care reform, which were made public this week in an op-ed piece he wrote for The Wall Street Journal.

Michael Lent, another Whole Foods enthusiast in Long Beach, Calif., told ABCNews.com that he, too, will turn to other organic groceries for his weekly shopping list.

"I'm boycotting [Whole Foods] because all Americans need health care," said Lent, 33, who used to visit his local Whole Foods "several times a week." (To join the 'Whole Foods Boycott" on Facebook, click here: Boycott Whole Foods | Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=119099537379))

"While Mackey is worried about health care and stimulus spending, he doesn't seem too worried about expensive wars and tax breaks for the wealthy and big businesses such as his own that contribute to the deficit," said Lent.

In his op-ed, "The Whole Foods Alternative to ObamaCare," published Tuesday, Mackey criticized President Barack Obama's health care plan.

Mackey provided eight "reforms" he argued the U.S. can do to improve health care without increasing the deficit. He suggested that tax forms be revised to "make it easier for individuals to make a voluntary, tax-deductible donation to help the millions of people who have no insurance."

Mackey also called for a move toward "less government control and more individual empowerment" instead of "a massive new health care entitlement that will create hundreds of billions of dollars of new unfunded deficits."

He added that many of the country's health care problems are "self-inflicted" and are preventable through "proper diet, exercise, not smoking, minimal alcohol consumption and other healthy lifestyle choices."

In the op-ed, Mackey outlines Whole Foods' employee health insurance policy. According to Mackey, Whole Foods pays 100 percent of the premiums for all employees who work 30 hours or more per week -- about 89 percent of his workforce.

Additionally, the company gives each employee $1,800 per year in "health-care dollars," says Mackey, that they can use at their own discretion for health and wellness expenses. This money can be put toward the $2,500 annual deductible that must be covered before Mackey says the company's "insurance plan kicks in."

Whole Foods Shoppers Weigh In
The op-ed piece, which begins with a Margaret Thatcher quote, "The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money," has left some Whole Foods loyalists enraged. Many say Mackey was out of line to opine against the liberal base that has made his fortune possible.

Christine Taylor, a 34-year-old New Jersey shopper, vowed never to step foot in another Whole Foods again.
"I will no longer be shopping at Whole Foods," Taylor told ABCNews.com. "I think a CEO should take care that if he speaks about politics, that his beliefs reflect at least the majority of his clients."

Countless Whole Foods shoppers have taken their gripes with Mackey's op-ed to the Internet, where people on the social networking sites Twitter and Facebook are calling for a boycott of the store.

A commenter on the Whole Foods forum, identified only by his handle, "PracticePreach," wrote, "It is an absolute slap in the face to the millions of progressive-minded consumers that have made [Whole Foods] what it is today."

"You should know who butters your hearth-baked bread, John," wrote the commenter. "Last time I checked it wasn't the insurance industry conservatives who made you a millionaire a hundred times over."

While Mackey reduced his annual salary to one dollar in 2007, after explaining to employees he was "no longer interested in working for money," Mackey is still the head of the 10th largest food and drug store in the U.S.

Whole Foods Market Inc. reported that sales for the last quarter rose by 2 percent to $1.878 billion. It is consistently ranked a Fortune 500 company.

And not all Whole Foods customers were upset by Mackey's op-ed.

Many posted online that they agreed with his message and would try to shop at the chain more often.

Frank Federer wrote ABCNews.com, expressing fatigue with the knee-jerk reaction of other shoppers.

"You can count me as one vote FOR Whole Foods' CEO," wrote Federer. "At a time when most folks are more inclined toward rancor than discussion of facts, I applaud John Mackey."

Despite his financial success, this is not the first time Mackey has become fodder for criticism. In 2007, it was discovered that Mackey had been using a pseudonym to post blogs lambasting Whole Foods' competitor, Wild Oats Market, and questioning the worth of the company's stock.

The postings were made public when Mackey announced his desire to buy Wild Oats Market, and a lawsuit was filed by the Federal Trade Commission over concerns that the purchase would violate antitrust laws.

The FTC eventually let the sale go through, provided that Mackey sold 31 of the Wild Oats stores, and the Securities and Exchange Commission, which had launched an investigation into the online postings, did not press charges.

Libba Letton, a Whole Foods spokeswoman, told ABCNews.com that Mackey was unavailable for an interview and said that the op-ed "stands on its own." Letton offered no further comment regarding customers' threats to boycott the store.

When a CEO Speaks Out...
According to Robert Passikoff, the founder of Brand Keys, a N.Y.-based consulting firm, what a CEO says or does can often have a direct impact on consumers' pocketbooks.

"You can have a tremendous effect as a CEO, but it's a double-edge sword in that you'll have people who will support your position and feel better about your brand because of what you say," said Passikoff. "But equally so, you'll have people who think you're crazy and because they can't take it out on you, the CEO, they'll take it out on the company."
It is the risk of losing customers, said Passikoff, which more often than not leads CEOs to keep their mouths shut, at least when it comes to polarizing issues such as health care.

Tom Monaghan, the founder of Domino's Pizza who was outspoken in the pro-life movement, ostracized many of his consumers who weren't sure how much of the money he earned making pizza was then going to support the pro-life movement.

Lynn Upshaw, a brand marketing consultant at Upshaw Brand Consulting in Kentfield, Calif., said that more often it is the actions of an entire company, and not just of a CEO, that lead to boycotting by consumers.

For example, Upshaw remembers when, in the late 1970s, Nestle angered consumers with a baby formula product it claimed to be a healthy alternative to breast-feeding.

"It's relatively unusual for a CEO to be as outspoken as Mackey has been," said Upshaw. "Because any time you weigh in to something political, you're bound to have loyal customers who will question [your] point of view, and that can have a very negative effect."

Upshaw added that Mackey's op-ed may have done more harm than might be typical because of the unique makeup of his clientele.

"You have more activist consumers going to Whole Foods than other stores," said Upshaw. "They're not just simply expressing an opinion, they do something about it.

"These are people who have already gone out of the way to find a place that is more expensive to buy certain types of food," he said. "So in theory, they might be more willing to take the action to go somewhere else if they don't agree with Mackey."

[Sara S]

The best thing I've read yet on Whole Foods and its CEO, Mr. Mackay:

Mark Morford's column today at sfgate.com

[Barry]

The best thing I've read yet on Whole Foods and its CEO, Mr. Mackay:

Mark Morford's column today at sfgate.com


See it here: Down with crab cakes! Ban Whole Foods! / On the ludicrous outcry against a brilliant, oddball CEO and his unfortunate opinion (https://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/g/a/2009/08/21/notes082109.DTL&feed=rss.mmorford)

["Mad" Miles]

I read Mark F. today. As I do everything he publishes.

Normally I'm on the same page with him. But I didn't like his take on the WholePayCheck CEO, nor his (Morford's) facile dismissal of us critics.

Morford downplays the importance of the right to organize a union. He gives credit to what's-his-name for things he didn't do (i.e. responsibility for legitimizing the market for local, organic and sustainably grown food).

The organic market has been effectively exploited by FoodForGold, but they didn't invent it, nor are they the sole proselytizers for it. The Hole Food monopoly is more responsible for trying to drive other organic food purveyors out of business, having done so to many, than for much of anything else.

If anyone gets credit for the spread of organics, I would give it to the counter-culture. In other words, all you original hippies out here in the West County and all the other centers of sometime resistence who started food coops back in the day.

How many of those coops are still around?

And how many were crushed by the WhoFarted? megamachine?

Cheers,

"Mad" Miles

:burngrnbounce:

[Deborah Thayer]

I love the people that work at our Whole Foods store. I'm really disappointed that the company has invested thousands of dollars, as has Starbucks and Costco, to defeat the Employee free-choice act. I'm appreciating Safeway a little more these days.

[Sara S]

Well, your post here made me go back and read MM's column again, since I didn't think he said those things. And he didn't, actually.

What he said was that Whole Foods' success made Walmart (!) and Safeway begin to stock organic food; not that Mackay "legitimized" that market, nor that he was the "sole" proselytizer for it.

I rarely shop there, because I'm too thrifty; but I saw co-ops go under here in the west county long before there was any large organic market at all.

Also, for another experience with the conglomerate, see Federico's post above.

I remember Shepherd Bliss' letter to the Sebastopol Paper after Whole Foods bought out Food for Thought; he said that Whole Foods wasn't going to buy local, organic farmers' produce because the output was too small for them. I thought that was awful and hypocritical of Whole Foods, but, really, dispassionately, it is simply business.

Mainly, I just always like to hear someone espouse a bit of the middle way, rather than jump on the bandwagon of either side, especially when there are, as is usual, grey areas in the topic of discussion.

This is all IMHO, of course.

And, I love your wordplays on the name!




I read Mark F. today. As I do everything he publishes.

Normally I'm on the same page with him. But I didn't like his take on the WholePayCheck CEO, nor his (Morford's) facile dismissal of us critics.

Morford downplays the importance of the right to organize a union. He gives credit to what's-his-name for things he didn't do (i.e. responsibility for legitimizing the market for local, organic and sustainably grown food).

The organic market has been effectively exploited by FoodForGold, but they didn't invent it, nor are they the sole proselytizers for it. The Hole Food monopoly is more responsible for trying to drive other organic food purveyors out of business, having done so to many, than for much of anything else.

If anyone gets credit for the spread of organics, I would give it to the counter-culture. In other words, all you original hippies out here in the West County and all the other centers of sometime resistence who started food coops back in the day.

How many of those coops are still around?

And how many were crushed by the WhoFarted? megamachine?

Cheers,

"Mad" Miles

:burngrnbounce:

[Barrie]

I love the people that work at our Whole Foods store. I'm really disappointed that the company has invested thousands of dollars, as has Starbucks and Costco, to defeat the Employee free-choice act. I'm appreciating Safeway a little more these days.


My concern with Mr. Mackey's column was that he thinks that if a person gets sick it is always their fault, because they are eating bad food, not exercising, or are smoking. I have known too many people who live very healty lives and come down with catostrophic illnesses. Also, children don't get to buy and prepare their own food, so much of what happens to us early in life, the most important years, are not what we choose. He seems very arrogant. I think we all live with risk and insurance should be a way to share the risk, not be a fund to make greedy people wealthy. That is why I support Obama's public plan.

Barrie

[bodegahead]

I support our President`s public health plan and I really like Whole Foods salad bar and deli. I`m getting confused. Are we supposed to be boycotting Whole Foods or protesting Mr. Mackey, or boycotting Whole Foods because Mr. Mackey is running the operation.


My concern with Mr. Mackey's column was that he thinks that if a person gets sick it is always their fault, because they are eating bad food, not exercising, or are smoking. I have known too many people who live very healty lives and come down with catostrophic illnesses. Also, children don't get to buy and prepare their own food, so much of what happens to us early in life, the most important years, are not what we choose. He seems very arrogant. I think we all live with risk and insurance should be a way to share the risk, not be a fund to make greedy people wealthy. That is why I support Obama's public plan.

Barrie

[Barrie]

It's not a "supposed to" thing. I am doing what I feel like doing, which is not spending a penny at Whole Foods. I live near Oliver's, so it's not a hard ship for me. :yinyang:

Barrie

[bodegahead]

If I could re word that I would change "are we supposed to be" to "what should we be doing".
Sure wished I lived near Olivers. Good thing I don`t. Oliver`s is so good I`d be in there all the time spending more money than I can afford. As is is it`s about 1hr RT and 7$ gas to get to Sebastopol so I just hit Safeway(it`s getting better all the time) and splurge at WF salad bar every once in a while.


It's not a "supposed to" thing. I am doing what I feel like doing, which is not spending a penny at Whole Foods. I live near Oliver's, so it's not a hard ship for me. :yinyang:

Barrie

[lynn]

bodega,

I'd boycott a business because of their practices, not because of the CEO's pov on something like this...

I don't mind Mackey's pov. on the health care situation at all...He's welcome to his opinion, and he might have some decent ideas there...It's an extremely confusing issue anyway - so the more (ideas to offer to better 'the system') - the better...I'm not sure why people are boycotting WF for that...That seems like a silly reaction to me...

"I support our President`s public health plan and I really like Whole Foods salad bar and deli. I`m getting confused. Are we supposed to be boycotting Whole Foods or protesting Mr. Mackey, or boycotting Whole Foods because Mr. Mackey is running the operation."

====================================


Barrie,

If Mackey implied that...Then he's being idiotic...A lot of bad health is occuring because of bad eating, living habits...But, it's never any gurantee of course...Anyone can get cancer, or have some kind unfortunate accident...


My concern with Mr. Mackey's column was that he thinks that if a person gets sick it is always their fault, because they are eating bad food, not exercising, or are smoking. I have known too many people who live very healty lives and come down with catostrophic illnesses."

[tomcat]

Dear Mr Miles, let's not confuse people who don't know the difference between a coop and a co-op. (sorry, hehe, couldn't help it).

Yes, the counter-culture did our best to change the world by promoting organics and sustainable agriculture, but we can't let our guard down for a second or the lobbyists for big agribusiness will dilute what we have accomplished.

Buy Organic if it's available... WHEREVER you shop, please.

There are still buying clubs around, but most storefront food co-ops went out of business long ago. The only fairly local exception I can think of is the Community Market in Santa Rosa... and the only surviving worker co-op in the area that I know of is Alvarado Street Bakery (STILL ORGANIC!).

The failed local food co-ops were not "crushed" by the likes of Whole Foods, but by business inexperience, political infighting, excessive worker turnover and lack of broad consumer support (among other things) ...in my opinion.

Well capitalized supermarkets like Whole Foods have made organics available to the masses (who can afford it) and I am happy about that, but I hope that we all remember to support our local growers and suppliers also.
Imwalle's Gardens on Third street is a great place to shop. You can see the food growing as you drive in. It truly is a flash from the past and I hope they survive.
Support the local Farmer's Markets too, and Community Market in Santa Rosa NEEDS your support.

If we don't support the small businesses in our area... they will disappear... and then we will be bitching about only having big name 'big box stores' to shop at.

Tom's :2cents:


I read Mark F. today. As I do everything he publishes.

Normally I'm on the same page with him. But I didn't like his take on the WholePayCheck CEO, nor his (Morford's) facile dismissal of us critics.

Morford downplays the importance of the right to organize a union. He gives credit to what's-his-name for things he didn't do (i.e. responsibility for legitimizing the market for local, organic and sustainably grown food).

The organic market has been effectively exploited by FoodForGold, but they didn't invent it, nor are they the sole proselytizers for it. The Hole Food monopoly is more responsible for trying to drive other organic food purveyors out of business, having done so to many, than for much of anything else.

If anyone gets credit for the spread of organics, I would give it to the counter-culture. In other words, all you original hippies out here in the West County and all the other centers of sometime resistence who started food coops back in the day.

How many of those coops are still around?

And how many were crushed by the WhoFarted? megamachine?

Cheers,

"Mad" Miles

:burngrnbounce:

["Mad" Miles]

Tom,

Well said. One correction. Community Market in Santa Rosa is not a Co-Op food store. It is worker run, but not owned.

As for who did what to who, for us to reach the current state of affairs, both you and Sara S. have added valuable details.

I still stand by my claim that for Mark Morford to credit Mackey/Holy Fools for the success of the organic food industry, and it's acceptance by mega-distributors such as Wally World, etc. is Booo-Sheeaaat!

What we can credit Mackey with are his obtuse views in the public health care debate, his anti-union / anti-worker policies, his excessive prices and his boutique, elitist green-washing approach to food retailing, and the fact that he's a scumbag liar who posed as someone else on an industry bulletin board to undercut his rival who he was in the process of absorbing into his monopoly business. All of these are facts, well-documented and well-discussed over the last several years on this board.

So, I don't shop at Food Hole, and never have, because of all of the above, and the fact that knowing someone and his management team are lying to me and everyone else, by saying and demonstrating one thing, while really doing the exact opposite, is an offense to my sense of justice and community well-being.

So yes, we're being asked to boycott Whale Fudge both because of the company's policies, and the views and actions of its CEO. Which are in many ways, but not all (i.e. "you're sick because you can't afford my wares, and since you don't buy them, it's your fault, so fuck you"), part and parcel of the same.

"Mad" Miles

:burngrnbounce:

[flygal]

Why Organic Consumers and Fair Trade Advocates Are Pressuring Whole Foods and UNFI

Corporate Takeovers & Monopolistic Practices
The $25 Billion organic marketplace has enjoyed substantial growth for over a decade, thanks to growing consumer consciousness and farmer innovation. No longer a passing trend or simply a niche market, organic food and farming are proving to be a viable alternative to the unhealthy, unsustainable and unjust conventional food system. Unfortunately unprecedented wholesale and retail control of the organic marketplace by UNFI and Whole Foods, employing a business model of selling twice as much so-called "natural" food as certified organic food, coupled with the takeover of many organic companies by bottom line multinational food corporations such as Dean Foods/Horizon
(https://organicconsumers.org/Organic/OrganicTop25Jul07.pdf), threatens the growth of the organic movement.

Perpetrating "Natural" Fraud
Consumers are confused about the difference between conventional
products marketed as "natural," and those nutritionally and environmentally superior products that are "certified organic." Retail stores like WFM and wholesale distributors like UNFI have failed to educate their customers about the qualitative difference between natural and organic. A troubling trend in organics today is the calculated shift on the part of certain large
companies from certified organic ingredients and products to so-called "natural" products. With the exception of the "natural" meat sector, where there are limited voluntary guidelines, there is no definition of "natural."

In the majority of cases, "natural" products are greenwashed conventional products, with "natural" label claims neither policed nor monitored. Whole Foods and UNFI are maximizing their profits by selling quasi-natural products at premium organic prices. Organic consumers are increasingly left without certified organic choices while organic farmers continue to lose market share to "natural" imposters. It's no wonder that less than 1% of American farmland is certified organic.

https://organicconsumers.org/images/unfi-flier.jpg



Excluding Small and Family Farms
Whole Foods and UNFI's business model of centralized sourcing and
prioritizing natural products over organic rewards large corporate farms and processors, to the detriment of local and regional small-scale organic farmers and brands. Organic farmers must "get big or get out" to be able to compete and have free access to markets. Many industrial organic farms and dairy operations reflect the same abuses and problems of the conventional food system: extremely energy intensive, systematic abuse of workers, reduced food quality, and damage to biodiversity. And of course so-called "natural" products, since they are actually in most cases conventional products in disguise, are being sold at lower prices than genuine organic products--thereby retarding the growth of the organic sector.

Organic and Local Food?
In light of the food system's significant contribution to the climate
crisis and the deepening economic troubles facing local food economies, it is more important than ever to prioritize locally produced organic food.

Though Whole Foods talks a lot about supporting local food and producers, the fact is that the vast majority of their products are not local, and much of what they sell is sourced from a small number of industrial organic operations in California, often owned by the same conventional food conglomerates responsible for destroying the world's food system.

Organic Monopoly and the "Whole Paycheck" Phenomena
UNFI has undermined the growth of the organic movement by implementing an unfair tiered pricing system that gives Whole Foods deep discounts while other grocers, coops and independent retailers pay significantly higher prices, in effect subsidizing UNFI for its reduced profits at Whole Foods.
With UNFI as the largest organic (but of course their sales are mostly
so-called "natural" products) food wholesaler and Whole Foods as the largest organic (like UNFI most of its sales are "natural") food retailer, organic consumers are assured higher prices, lower quality and fewer choices.

Cancer in a Bottle?
In 2008, the Organic Consumers Association exposed a problem which
particularly threatenss women - a large number of leading conventional as well as "natural" and "organic" brands of shampoos, lotions, cosmetics and household cleaning products which contained the carcinogen 1,4-Dioxane.
Included in the list of products were several Whole Food's 365 brand
products and many products in the UNFI catalog. While several dozen
companies have committed to eliminating the 1,4-Dioxane, neither Whole Foods, nor UNFI, have endorsed OCA's Coming Clean Campaign (https://www.organicconsumers.org/bodycare/index.cfm), nor have they called on the USDA to crack down on blatant labeling fraud in the organic personal care and cosmetics sector.

Corporate Consolidation of Organics
In the last decade, the organic marketplace has experienced hyper
consolidation, with numerous small to medium-sized farmers, manufacturers and retailers being taken over by larger, profit-hungry corporations. Whole Foods has employed an expansion strategy that resembles Wal-Mart with its targeting of local and independent retailers with new store locations while steadily buying out competitors like Wild Oats. UNFI has also grown rapidly over the last decade, in part by aggressively taking over other
distributors, regional wholesalers and manufacturers.

Organics for Elites?
The organic food and farming movements were born out of the desire to provide healthy and safe food to all. Whole Foods' business model: selling overpriced conventional foods as "natural," with organics in a subordinate role, is a recipe for maximizing profits rather than maximizing the growth of organic food and farming. Worse yet, Whole Food's high prices have not translated into larger profits for family farms or small-scale manufacturers. Likewise, UNFI's growing market share and near-monopoly of the organic and "natural" market has reduced the options for consumers and
independent retailers alike, undermining the growth of consumer buying clubs and the lower-cost alternatives.

Anti-worker
UNFI and Whole Foods have a history of cutting workers' benefits. Both have gone to extreme lengths to block their employees from choosing to unionize. Whole Foods has long fought unionization of its retail locations, largely ignored the demands of farm workers organizations, like the United Farm Workers, and kept workers' wages consistently low by industry standards. UNFI has repeatedly fought efforts by its employees to fight for better pay, benefits and working conditions. Where workers have successfully formed unions, UNFI has begun moving jobs to new, non-union locations.

[Barrie]

Why Organic Consumers and Fair Trade Advocates Are Pressuring Whole Foods and UNFI

Corporate Takeovers & Monopolistic Practices... Thanks a lot for this well researched information! It confirms what I "smelled" at Whole Foods. Barrie

[tomcat]

I heard on NPR that 30,000 people had signed on to a 'Boycott Whole Foods' group on Facebook, so Mackey has evidently really put his foot in it this time over his Health Care statements. I also heard a guy on Air America call for a boycott of WF.
I wonder if... instead of a boycott, everyone who is upset by Mackey's statements (and other things) were to write letters to Whole Foods Board of Directors and picket the stores to demand that Mackey be fired and talk to the store managers every time they shop. Perhaps a huge group of loyal customers protesting Mackey might sway the WF Board more than the disappearance of a smaller group from the stores. Out of sight is out of mind you know. They will just blame the slower sales on the bad economy.
I would really like to see WF change to a better way of doing business instead of disappearing. They could be a really great store if they tried and they do employ a lot of really nice people.
Tom's :2cents::2cents:

[Braggi]

I heard on NPR that 30,000 people had signed on to a 'Boycott Whole Foods' group on Facebook, ...

I have an idea. How about everyone just carries on with their lives and leaves Whole Foods alone? So one person who works for the company made his point of view known in a popular media outlet. So what? He's one person! Yes, he happens to be the CEO. So what? He's one person! Oh, I said that. I guess that's the point. He's not the whole company. Why hurt all the people who work there and all their suppliers because one person made a statement you don't personally agree with?

What all this fuss is doing is creating a whole new market for Whole Foods. The "other half" of the country that would never have gone into Whole Foods for fearing of getting too close to a liberal is now embracing Whole Foods because of all this added publicity.

Carry on with your lives citizens. There is no emergency at Whole Foods that requires your attention. Well, not this one anyway.

-Jeff

[n4rky]

I would really like to see WF change to a better way of doing business instead of disappearing. They could be a really great store if they tried and they do employ a lot of really nice people.
Tom's :2cents::2cents:

You touch on something that does disturb me about the idea of inflicting serious pain on Whole Foods, even as I now try to shop there less. (Yes, I've found Oliver's, and no, it is not an adequate substitute.) We can despise upper management including John Mackey, but I'm guessing the larger portion of Whole Foods' employees are progressive sorts of people whom we should support. And right now, the latter depend on the former for their livelihoods and they don't have a lot of alternatives.

This is more insidious than a hostage situation. A better analogy is with human shields. Because you know Whole Foods' corporate management will lay off "team members" long before they fire themselves. It is a paralyzing paradox.

[n4rky]

So what? [John Mackey's] one person! Yes, he happens to be the CEO. So what? He's one person!

This isn't quite true. He founded Whole Foods. He likely has the support of the board of directors. He may well have chosen upper management according to his personal values. So despite the many good people who work there (at lower levels) and a despite a capitalist decision to exploit a progressive market by espousing certain values we hold dear, Whole Foods also reflects some values many of us find inimical.

The difficulty is in weighing these combinations of values. A number of vegans see Mackey as a vegan (despite his consumption of eggs) and therefore think it stupid to boycott Whole Foods. I also see vegans who will support any vegan restaurant regardless of how it treats its employees. For these people, veganism takes precedence over all other sets of values.

I am vegan, but philosophically, I am an anarchist, opposing hierarchy, first. That hierarchy includes but is by no means limited to the ranking of humans over animals. I also oppose the privileging of the wealthy over everyone else, management over labor, men over women, whites over others, humans over the environment, etc.

And for me, there is no dichotomy between shopping at even more offensive chains, such as Safeway, and Whole Foods. It is exceedingly rare that I go into Safeway. The issue for me is, where practical, to increase my patronage of locally-owned operations such as Fircrest, Oliver's, and Andy's and to decrease my reliance upon Whole Foods.

[Braggi]

This isn't quite true. He founded Whole Foods. He likely has the support of the board of directors. ...

Last I heard, he was only one person, so it is true. Quite true.

He may be an influential person but he's still only one guy. If you don't like the store, don't go there. If you do like the store the CEO's opinion shouldn't stop you from going there. If it does, you're a pretty sensitive person. So be it.

It still makes little sense to me to attempt to boycott or picket a store you don't shop at anyway. I don't go there either. I have my own problems with the store, but I'm not about to damn the whole chain of stores and harm all the suppliers just because I have a difference of opinion with one of their employees. It just seems real lame. YMMV.

-Jeff

[The Owl]

:2cents:

This isn't quite true. He founded Whole Foods. He likely has the support of the board of directors. He may well have chosen upper management according to his personal values. So despite the many good people who work there (at lower levels) and a despite a capitalist decision to exploit a progressive market by espousing certain values we hold dear, Whole Foods also reflects some values many of us find inimical.

The difficulty is in weighing these combinations of values. A number of vegans see Mackey as a vegan (despite his consumption of eggs) and therefore think it stupid to boycott Whole Foods. I also see vegans who will support any vegan restaurant regardless of how it treats its employees. For these people, veganism takes precedence over all other sets of values.

I am vegan, but philosophically, I am an anarchist, opposing hierarchy, first. That hierarchy includes but is by no means limited to the ranking of humans over animals. I also oppose the privileging of the wealthy over everyone else, management over labor, men over women, whites over others, humans over the environment, etc.

And for me, there is no dichotomy between shopping at even more offensive chains, such as Safeway, and Whole Foods. It is exceedingly rare that I go into Safeway. The issue for me is, where practical, to increase my patronage of locally-owned operations such as Fircrest, Oliver's, and Andy's and to decrease my reliance upon Whole Foods.

This thread gets loonier all the time... He "likely has" the support of his board of directors... He "may well have" chosen upper management according to his personal values... Kind of building a big castle out of nothing there, aren't you? Contrary to what you apparently believe, we live under a Capitalist System, Whole Foods is a corporation that is part of that system. Sure, their CEO is a fool, but so are most of them. Right now, fools have all the money, and look at the planet as a result.
As a store, WF is way better than Safeway... sure there are some conventional produce at WF but overall the organics prevail by quite a margin. At Safeway, MOST of the produce (and everything else) is conventional (read poisoned) with a token section of organics. If you want to knock down WF, another entity very much like it will take it's place... if you want true change you must go deeper than that.
Corporate Capitalism is destroying the only planet we have... work to change that and I'm on board... but taking pot shots at a store chain that happens to employ a lot of my friends?... this petty sniping is like pissing into the wind. Gives you some personal relief but in the end everyone can see you're all wet.

[Barry]

I appreciate how thoughtful and (generally) respectful this conversation has been! :tiphat:


I invite you guys to guys to rate this thread so others can know how worthwhile it is.

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This is a standard feature available on all threads. There is a minimum number of votes that are needed before the rating is shown on the thread list. :vote:

[flygal]

It appears by your reply that you have not read through this entire post nor have you read the beginning threads. Although this particular incident with Mackey has recently occurred, Whole Foods market is a disaster in many ways--and by shopping there you are simply continuing the cycle.

I suggest you try reading back through the all of the posts and learn about other ways in which Whole Foods is wrecking things. So don't just carry on and get back to your lives, get educated and then do something about it!


I have an idea. How about everyone just carries on with their lives and leaves Whole Foods alone? So one person who works for the company made his point of view known in a popular media outlet. So what? He's one person! Yes, he happens to be the CEO. So what? He's one person! Oh, I said that. I guess that's the point. He's not the whole company. Why hurt all the people who work there and all their suppliers because one person made a statement you don't personally agree with?

What all this fuss is doing is creating a whole new market for Whole Foods. The "other half" of the country that would never have gone into Whole Foods for fearing of getting too close to a liberal is now embracing Whole Foods because of all this added publicity.

Carry on with your lives citizens. There is no emergency at Whole Foods that requires your attention. Well, not this one anyway.

-Jeff

[Barrie]

It appears by your reply that you have not read through this entire post nor have you read the beginning threads. Although this particular incident with Mackey has recently occurred, Whole Foods market is a disaster in many ways--and by shopping there you are simply continuing the cycle.

I suggest you try reading back through the all of the posts and learn about other ways in which Whole Foods is wrecking things. So don't just carry on and get back to your lives, get educated and then do something about it!

Whole Foods may carry some healthy foods, but they don't buy from local farmers, they run small businesses out of town, and they cater to people who can afford to pay the highest prices with no concern for the public at large. Nice people work there, but they work for low wages and don't have much say in how the stores are run.

Safeway workers have a union, get health insurance and decent wages.

Barrie

[DancingDeva]

I have an idea. How about everyone just carries on with their lives and leaves Whole Foods alone? So one person who works for the company made his point of view known in a popular media outlet. So what? He's one person! Yes, he happens to be the CEO. So what? He's one person! Oh, I said that. I guess that's the point. He's not the whole company. Why hurt all the people who work there and all their suppliers because one person made a statement you don't personally agree with?

What all this fuss is doing is creating a whole new market for Whole Foods. The "other half" of the country that would never have gone into Whole Foods for fearing of getting too close to a liberal is now embracing Whole Foods because of all this added publicity.

Carry on with your lives citizens. There is no emergency at Whole Foods that requires your attention. Well, not this one anyway.

-Jeff
I agree Jeff,
All this reactivity seems so overblown!
We do live in a country where it's still possible to
express an opinion without getting arrested. So what's
the big deal? We're all entitled to our views and for them
even to be public. I thought the CEO added some relevant
food for thought. We all need to be thinking about and analyzing
what our government is churning out and not just accepting it
blindly! Come on people!

[Dionysos]

I agree Jeff,
All this reactivity seems so overblown!
We do live in a country where it's still possible to
express an opinion without getting arrested. So what's
the big deal? We're all entitled to our views and for them
even to be public. I thought the CEO added some relevant
food for thought. We all need to be thinking about and analyzing
what our government is churning out and not just accepting it
blindly! Come on people!

I agree with Deva. The CEO is a libertarian. So what? It's a respectable position whether or not you agree with it. I'm very far from knowing what the "best" health care system would look like. What we can hope for is some reform and improvement, but it will have to be a compromise. There's no point in demonizing people you don't agree with.

[n4rky]

It appears by your reply that you have not read through this entire post nor have you read the beginning threads.

So I'm reading ahead to the posts that occur in sequence after this one. Ummmmm.....

And now I have a question. You see, I have a B.A. in Mass Communication and an M.A. in Speech Communication. I've been on the Internet now for something like eleven years; I have participated in numerous email lists, administered a few, and been on a few forums such as this. So I'm under the impression I should know something about this. Clearly, I don't.

Barrie offers an extremely abbreviated but, I'll have to admit, decent summary of what now amounts to four quite long pages of discussion. No mean feat.

Now read the posts following his. Somehow, we're right back to the notion that this is exclusively about health care.

Even if I take the view that it is bad netiquette to simply post whatever you like on a thread completely without regard to what has been said before, with Barrie's contribution, this still exceptionally bad form. Astonishing, in fact.

If I take the view that these are capitalist Libertarians who get all their information from the Cato Institute and don't figure they need to listen to anyone else (except of course, other capitalist Libertarians), then that begs the question of why they're even bothering to read the subject lines here.

Obviously, I'm missing a perspective here.

[ChristineL]

Knowing several people who work for Safeway...no they do not get decent wages, their Union is relatively powerless and the dues can be a real hardship when someone is only working 24 hours a week. As I've stated on previous threads; Safeway starting wages are around $8.00/hr. Whenever Safeway does any kind of remodeling, most of the employees are reduced to 24 hours a week (the minimum allowed by the Union Contract). Near as I can tell from the continuous understaffing up here in Guerneville, that's how they're paying for their new "low low prices". Only a few years ago Safeway employees were paid enough of a living wage they could raise families on them. Due to having to compete with Walmart, they have lowered wages and benefits tremendously. Interestingly enough, they still hold employees to the same high standards and they are still subject to secret shoppers.

If there was any way to do it, I would love to see the Guerneville Safeway replaced by G&G or Trader Joe. Their employees are better paid and better treated.

The new manager at the Guerneville Safeway has no trouble doing whatever it takes to increase her productivity and lowering costs bonuses even if it means the employees can't afford to shop Safeway. The service has become very poor due to understaffing.




Whole Foods may carry some healthy foods, but they don't buy from local farmers, they run small businesses out of town, and they cater to people who can afford to pay the highest prices with no concern for the public at large. Nice people work there, but they work for low wages and don't have much say in how the stores are run.

Safeway workers have a union, get health insurance and decent wages.

Barrie

[Dionysos]

So I'm reading ahead to the posts that occur in sequence after this one. Ummmmm.....

And now I have a question. You see, I have a B.A. in Mass Communication and an M.A. in Speech Communication. I've been on the Internet now for something like eleven years; I have participated in numerous email lists, administered a few, and been on a few forums such as this. So I'm under the impression I should know something about this. Clearly, I don't.

Barrie offers an extremely abbreviated but, I'll have to admit, decent summary of what now amounts to four quite long pages of discussion. No mean feat.

Now read the posts following his. Somehow, we're right back to the notion that this is exclusively about health care.

Even if I take the view that it is bad netiquette to simply post whatever you like on a thread completely without regard to what has been said before, with Barrie's contribution, this still exceptionally bad form. Astonishing, in fact.

If I take the view that these are capitalist Libertarians who get all their information from the Cato Institute and don't figure they need to listen to anyone else (except of course, other capitalist Libertarians), then that begs the question of why they're even bothering to read the subject lines here.

Obviously, I'm missing a perspective here.

You're also misusing the phrase "begs the question."
:wink:

[n4rky]

You're also misusing the phrase "begs the question."
:wink:

[snicker] Not quite. Consider this argument structure:

They are capitalist Libertarians who get all their information from Cato Institute and don't see a need to consult with anyone else (except other capitalist Libertarians).
How do I know?
Because they obviously haven't read previous postings.If #1 is true, and previous information comes from non-members of the class of capitalist Libertarians (the class of capitalist Libertarians includes the Cato Institute, but I'm guessing you know that), then #3 in the narrow context of this thread nearly restates #1, fulfilling the condition of circular logic required for proper use of the phrase, "begging the question."

I will acknowledge, however, abusing the phrase.

[babaruss]

I appreciate how thoughtful and (generally) respectful this conversation has been! :tiphat:


I invite you guys to guys to rate this thread so others can know how worthwhile it is.

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Can't get the buttons to work, but from my point of view this thread is or at least should be tossed into the compost heap.
It's certainly run it's course and by now probably dead.
babaruss
babaruss

[federico]

It appears by your reply that you have not read through this entire post nor have you read the beginning threads. Although this particular incident with Mackey has recently occurred, Whole Foods market is a disaster in many ways--and by shopping there you are simply continuing the cycle.

I suggest you try reading back through the all of the posts and learn about other ways in which Whole Foods is wrecking things. [i][b]So don't just carry on and get back to your lives, get educated and then do something about it!


:Yinyangv: Flygal and others: IMHO, the case with Whole Foods is not that black and white, cut and dry. Very little in life is actually so simple (oh, so ying-yang encompasses ALL these dualities inherent in life). You see WF as a 'disaster'. I disagree. I do see some problems, IMO, of course. But I see other issues as well.

To me, WF is so popular because they reach many Americans who evidently do not feel comfortable at the local co-op or health food store. Why else would WF be so big, and all others are small scale? I've seen WF appeal in 'middle America' where no locals or co-op ventured, or the co-op appeared 'fringe.' SO, what would you recommend to these people? These ARE the growing numbers of Americans who support this industry. I say, "welcome aboard."

Also, I feel the case presented here in 'Why Organic Consumers and Fair Trade Advocates Are Pressuring Whole Foods and UNFI' is quite weak, and based largely on generalities.

For example, item #1, 'Corporate Takeovers & Monopolistic Practices'; in only one paragraph to make this point, they observe that the organic movement is growing and threatened at the same time. Huh? I see that now Mal Wart (MW) is selling more and more organics, basically because of the success of WF. So the numbers of 'wholesome' shoppers is off the wall, and continues to grow. In a capitalist economy, we'll see the bigger fish (MW) trying to catch a slice of the pie; that is the capitalist system. That is not the fault of WF or any other retailer. The co-ops (more 'pure?') never captured this market. Why? We can thank WF for helping with this growth; and now, MW. And that's tough to swallow, but true.

In point two, 'Perpetrating "Natural" Fraud', they generalize throughout. IMHO, it reads like an editorial. 'Failed to educate' is the claim against WF. Who says so? Does the writer feel the shoppers are uneducated? I see plenty of info at WF, more so than the local stores. But the larger point, is that this is a generality. As is the next line, 'a troubling trend'. Any facts here? No.

To make a case as this document attempts requires facts, then conclusions, then a suggested alternative, IMHO. Otherwise, it reads like someone's opinion. But that opinion can be taken as truth, as I often see happening in today's media. And here it happens with WF.

So, ultimately, here we end up with opinions. Hey, guess what?, they differ. I can live with that. I hope you can too, and still be peaceful.

May we remember how beloved Teddy Kennedy was by conservative stalwarts. He knew how to break the bread, every day (organic, I'm sure, from the old Bread and Circus, now WF).

I shop at my 'home' co-op, when I'm there. It's still 'fringe'. I support the local Cal Mart 'wholesome foods' section. No other local place near me. But I see value in WF, and will continue to shop there.

AND, I will spend some time this weekend working toward the Public Option choice in health care. Why don't you join me in the way you feel works for you. THAT would be a nice personal way to counter the op-ed by John Mackey (whose piece I disagree with).

As flygal suggested, 'do something about it.'

[Dionysos]

[snicker] Not quite. Consider this argument structure:

They are capitalist Libertarians who get all their information from Cato Institute and don't see a need to consult with anyone else (except other capitalist Libertarians).
How do I know?
Because they obviously haven't read previous postings.If #1 is true, and previous information comes from non-members of the class of capitalist Libertarians (the class of capitalist Libertarians includes the Cato Institute, but I'm guessing you know that), then #3 in the narrow context of this thread nearly restates #1, fulfilling the condition of circular logic required for proper use of the phrase, "begging the question."

I will acknowledge, however, abusing the phrase.

Well done!

[Barrie]

Knowing several people who work for Safeway...no they do not get decent wages, their Union is relatively powerless and the dues can be a real hardship when someone is only working 24 hours a week. As I've stated on previous threads; Safeway starting wages are around $8.00/hr. Whenever Safeway does any kind of remodeling, most of the employees are reduced to 24 hours a week (the minimum allowed by the Union Contract). Near as I can tell from the continuous understaffing up here in Guerneville, that's how they're paying for their new "low low prices". Only a few years ago Safeway employees were paid enough of a living wage they could raise families on them. Due to having to compete with Walmart, they have lowered wages and benefits tremendously. Interestingly enough, they still hold employees to the same high standards and they are still subject to secret shoppers.

If there was any way to do it, I would love to see the Guerneville Safeway replaced by G&G or Trader Joe. Their employees are better paid and better treated.

The new manager at the Guerneville Safeway has no trouble doing whatever it takes to increase her productivity and lowering costs bonuses even if it means the employees can't afford to shop Safeway. The service has become very poor due to understaffing.

I'm sorry to hear about the changes at Safeway. I shop at Oliver's, Andy's, and Community Market.

[Braggi]

It appears by your reply that you have not read through this entire post nor have you read the beginning threads. Although this particular incident with Mackey has recently occurred, Whole Foods market ... So don't just carry on and get back to your lives, get educated and then do something about it!

Funny, flygal. By your comment here it appears that you haven't read the whole thread. I am doing something about it. I'm writing here and trying to make some sense out of all the histrionics.

It's so funny to me how everyone thinks everyone else just needs to "get educated" then we can be just like them and do and think just like they do.

Perhaps we are educated flygal. Differently educated. Different from you. That's not necessarily a bad thing. Maybe we have a broader point of view.

-Jeff

[n4rky]

Funny, flygal. By your comment here it appears that you haven't read the whole thread. I am doing something about it. I'm writing here and trying to make some sense out of all the histrionics.

It's so funny to me how everyone thinks everyone else just needs to "get educated" then we can be just like them and do and think just like they do.

Perhaps we are educated flygal. Differently educated. Different from you. That's not necessarily a bad thing. Maybe we have a broader point of view.

-Jeff

John Mackey's name does not appear in this thread before February 2009. The first reference to health care or health insurance appears in the same posting. The thread was already over a year old at that time.

If you are indeed "trying to do something about all the histrionics," then please address issues specifically. Like even the very, very high deductible on the health insurance that Whole Foods offers its employees, like other aspects of its treatment of its employees, like its treatment of suppliers, like its monopolistic practices, like its high prices. These are all substantive issues that go far beyond "one person who works for the company [who] made his point of view known in a popular media outlet."

But your use of the word "histrionics" denies that these issues have even been raised. To quote a dictionary definition, "Insincere, exaggeratedly emotional or overly dramatical speech or behavior performed to create an impression rather than as an expression of true feeling; feigned emotion." In the context of a lengthy, substantial conversation, this is an ill-founded, highly offensive, and even inflammatory charge.

[n4rky]

To me, WF is so popular because they reach many Americans who evidently do not feel comfortable at the local co-op or health food store. Why else would WF be so big, and all others are small scale? I've seen WF appeal in 'middle America' where no locals or co-op ventured, or the co-op appeared 'fringe.' SO, what would you recommend to these people? These ARE the growing numbers of Americans who support this industry. I say, "welcome aboard."

I'm guessing that many experience similar difficulties (if not for the same reasons) as me. Smaller stores require many more stops to complete a shopping list. Many more stops, means much more time and much more gas.

The trouble is that this is not a self-correcting tendency. Whole Foods can occupy large spaces because it has the money to do so. Shopping at Whole Foods increases this money, so it can continue to occupy larger and larger spaces. The outcome of this can be seen by comparing, for example, the Sebastopol store to the recently added Mountain View or Cupertino stores. The latter are huge.

Meanwhile, smaller competitors are deprived of the opportunity to expand, because so many of their customers now go to Whole Foods. At best, they are able to sustain themselves as they are.


Also, I feel the case presented here in 'Why Organic Consumers and Fair Trade Advocates Are Pressuring Whole Foods and UNFI' is quite weak, and based largely on generalities.

For example, item #1, 'Corporate Takeovers & Monopolistic Practices'; in only one paragraph to make this point, they observe that the organic movement is growing and threatened at the same time. Huh? I see that now Mal Wart (MW) is selling more and more organics, basically because of the success of WF. So the numbers of 'wholesome' shoppers is off the wall, and continues to grow. In a capitalist economy, we'll see the bigger fish (MW) trying to catch a slice of the pie; that is the capitalist system. That is not the fault of WF or any other retailer. The co-ops (more 'pure?') never captured this market. Why? We can thank WF for helping with this growth; and now, MW. And that's tough to swallow, but true.

See my previous point. This does not matter if you do not distinguish between national megaliths and local businesses. If, however, you are concerned about the money that gets sucked out of a local area by national and multinational chains and about the devastation (see the DVD, Wal-Mart: The High Cost of a Low Price) wrought on local communities, it matters a great deal.

[JaneyPDelaney]

Let me say from the outset, that I was never a big shopper at WF. I did shop there occasionally, usually after a visit to my hair salon as it's in that same section of town. I liked the large ready made selection of foods on days I didn't feel like cooking, and of course, I got that lovely virtuous feeling of buying organic!

Since reading Mr. Mackey's op ed, I made the decision to stop shopping at WF completely. I wrote to the local store, and appreciate the very gracious response I got in reply. Still, I will take my limited grocery budget elsewhere, to local businesses. I like Oliver's, Andy's Produce is great, and the Saturday morning Farmer's Market is a once-a-month pleasure as well.

[Sara S]

On your way to Andy's, stop at Hale's Apple Ranch! They not only have wonderful apples, and tomatoes, and pumpkins later on, but they are benefactors of local programs for kids.

They also have gold-medal-winning apple juice-the best I ever tasted.




I'm sorry to hear about the changes at Safeway. I shop at Oliver's, Andy's, and Community Market.

[Dianala]

Go to the Events section to see when the viewing of "Unnatural Causes" will be shown.
Dianala




Why Organic Consumers and Fair Trade Advocates Are Pressuring Whole Foods and UNFI

Corporate Takeovers & Monopolistic Practices
<LI class=list_spacer>The $25 Billion organic marketplace has enjoyed substantial growth for over a decade, thanks to growing consumer consciousness and farmer innovation. No longer a passing trend or simply a niche market, organic food and farming are proving to be a viable alternative to the unhealthy, unsustainable and unjust conventional food system. Unfortunately unprecedented wholesale and retail control of the organic marketplace by UNFI and Whole Foods, employing a business model of selling twice as much so-called "natural" food as certified organic food, coupled with the takeover of many organic companies by bottom line multinational food corporations such as Dean Foods/Horizon
(https://organicconsumers.org/Organic/OrganicTop25Jul07.pdf), threatens the growth of the organic movement.

Perpetrating "Natural" Fraud<LI class=list_spacer>Consumers are confused about the difference between conventional
products marketed as "natural," and those nutritionally and environmentally superior products that are "certified organic." Retail stores like WFM and wholesale distributors like UNFI have failed to educate their customers about the qualitative difference between natural and organic. A troubling trend in organics today is the calculated shift on the part of certain large
companies from certified organic ingredients and products to so-called "natural" products. With the exception of the "natural" meat sector, where there are limited voluntary guidelines, there is no definition of "natural."

In the majority of cases, "natural" products are greenwashed conventional products, with "natural" label claims neither policed nor monitored. Whole Foods and UNFI are maximizing their profits by selling quasi-natural products at premium organic prices. Organic consumers are increasingly left without certified organic choices while organic farmers continue to lose market share to "natural" imposters. It's no wonder that less than 1% of American farmland is certified organic.<LI class=list_spacer>
https://organicconsumers.org/images/unfi-flier.jpg
Excluding Small and Family Farms<LI class=list_spacer>Whole Foods and UNFI's business model of centralized sourcing and
prioritizing natural products over organic rewards large corporate farms and processors, to the detriment of local and regional small-scale organic farmers and brands. Organic farmers must "get big or get out" to be able to compete and have free access to markets. Many industrial organic farms and dairy operations reflect the same abuses and problems of the conventional food system: extremely energy intensive, systematic abuse of workers, reduced food quality, and damage to biodiversity. And of course so-called "natural" products, since they are actually in most cases conventional products in disguise, are being sold at lower prices than genuine organic products--thereby retarding the growth of the organic sector.

Organic and Local Food?<LI class=list_spacer>In light of the food system's significant contribution to the climate
crisis and the deepening economic troubles facing local food economies, it is more important than ever to prioritize locally produced organic food.

Though Whole Foods talks a lot about supporting local food and producers, the fact is that the vast majority of their products are not local, and much of what they sell is sourced from a small number of industrial organic operations in California, often owned by the same conventional food conglomerates responsible for destroying the world's food system.

Organic Monopoly and the "Whole Paycheck" Phenomena<LI class=list_spacer>UNFI has undermined the growth of the organic movement by implementing an unfair tiered pricing system that gives Whole Foods deep discounts while other grocers, coops and independent retailers pay significantly higher prices, in effect subsidizing UNFI for its reduced profits at Whole Foods.
With UNFI as the largest organic (but of course their sales are mostly
so-called "natural" products) food wholesaler and Whole Foods as the largest organic (like UNFI most of its sales are "natural") food retailer, organic consumers are assured higher prices, lower quality and fewer choices.

Cancer in a Bottle?<LI class=list_spacer>In 2008, the Organic Consumers Association exposed a problem which
particularly threatenss women - a large number of leading conventional as well as "natural" and "organic" brands of shampoos, lotions, cosmetics and household cleaning products which contained the carcinogen 1,4-Dioxane.
Included in the list of products were several Whole Food's 365 brand
products and many products in the UNFI catalog. While several dozen
companies have committed to eliminating the 1,4-Dioxane, neither Whole Foods, nor UNFI, have endorsed OCA's Coming Clean Campaign (https://www.organicconsumers.org/bodycare/index.cfm), nor have they called on the USDA to crack down on blatant labeling fraud in the organic personal care and cosmetics sector.

Corporate Consolidation of Organics<LI class=list_spacer>In the last decade, the organic marketplace has experienced hyper
consolidation, with numerous small to medium-sized farmers, manufacturers and retailers being taken over by larger, profit-hungry corporations. Whole Foods has employed an expansion strategy that resembles Wal-Mart with its targeting of local and independent retailers with new store locations while steadily buying out competitors like Wild Oats. UNFI has also grown rapidly over the last decade, in part by aggressively taking over other
distributors, regional wholesalers and manufacturers.

Organics for Elites?<LI class=list_spacer>The organic food and farming movements were born out of the desire to provide healthy and safe food to all. Whole Foods' business model: selling overpriced conventional foods as "natural," with organics in a subordinate role, is a recipe for maximizing profits rather than maximizing the growth of organic food and farming. Worse yet, Whole Food's high prices have not translated into larger profits for family farms or small-scale manufacturers. Likewise, UNFI's growing market share and near-monopoly of the organic and "natural" market has reduced the options for consumers and
independent retailers alike, undermining the growth of consumer buying clubs and the lower-cost alternatives.

Anti-worker
UNFI and Whole Foods have a history of cutting workers' benefits. Both have gone to extreme lengths to block their employees from choosing to unionize. Whole Foods has long fought unionization of its retail locations, largely ignored the demands of farm workers organizations, like the United Farm Workers, and kept workers' wages consistently low by industry standards. UNFI has repeatedly fought efforts by its employees to fight for better pay, benefits and working conditions. Where workers have successfully formed unions, UNFI has begun moving jobs to new, non-union locations.

[tomcat]

Gee, what a brilliant marketing tool :idea:




What all this fuss is doing is creating a whole new market for Whole Foods. The "other half" of the country that would never have gone into Whole Foods for fearing of getting too close to a liberal is now embracing Whole Foods because of all this added publicity.

-Jeff

[tomcat]

Yes, I agree with this part of what you said and feel that people need to protest the CEO and not the company, but that's just me. Everyone has their own agenda. Beware of the unintended consequences folks. WF could actually GAIN sales because of Mackey's statement and a boycott.


Why hurt all the people who work there and all their suppliers because one person made a statement you don't personally agree with?

What all this fuss is doing is creating a whole new market for Whole Foods. The "other half" of the country that would never have gone into Whole Foods for fearing of getting too close to a liberal is now embracing Whole Foods because of all this added publicity.

-Jeff

[flygal]

The ABC I-Team exposes Whole Foods as they mislead consumers into thinking their 365 brand is truly organic. A must see video!

YouTube - Whole Foods Market "Organic" food made in China !!!! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQ31Ljd9T_Y)

Yet another convincing reason to NOT shop at Whole Foods!

[scamperwillow]

The key is to buy the locally grown produce that is IN season and not packaged in plastic.  I always look to see where produce is grown before buying it - no matter where I am shopping. We all need to learn to read labels and shop with our values - Whole Foods is no worse than any of the others.

A couple years ago a friend bought a package of dried APPLES at Andy's in Sebastopol to bring on a trip to China. In china on the bus, she brought out the package and it said Made in China!! Apples from Andy's!!

And may I mention the bottled water that many of us buy that is flown over from Italy!!



The ABC I-Team exposes Whole Foods as they mislead consumers into thinking their 365 brand is truly organic. A must see video!

YouTube - Whole Foods Market "Organic" food made in China !!!! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQ31Ljd9T_Y)

Yet another convincing reason to NOT shop at Whole Foods!

[Indigo Crystal Angel]

yes! buy local (in) season... =) WF has had me wonder for some time now... it seems that if i find myself shopping in the seb town health food dept there, i point out things that should or shouldnt be there... recently, WF were carrying the liquid Chlorophyll in the bottle by World Organics Corp & some of the all natural ingredients were parabens! ... i informed them & they immediately took all of this product off the shelf & said they would stop ordering that particular one... World Organics does make another liquid drinkable Chlorophyll that appears to safe. they are carrying that now.

also here's a link to a review i wrote on our closest local market which i have boycotted. Bohemian Market, Occidental, CA : Reviews and maps - Yahoo! Local (https://local.yahoo.com/info-21697379-bohemian-market-occidental)

for our community garden this summer - we are purchasing a few years worth of Heirloom organic NON MONSANTO seeds & will again be enjoying fresh produce from our garden.

speaking of Monsanto, I wonder if WF deals with that on ANY levels?

hmmmm..
until next time.
be blessed.
jerica



The key is to buy the locally grown produce that is IN season and not packaged in plastic.  I always look to see where produce is grown before buying it - no matter where I am shopping. We all need to learn to read labels and shop with our values - Whole Foods is no worse than any of the others.

A couple years ago a friend bought a package of dried APPLES at Andy's in Sebastopol to bring on a trip to China. In china on the bus, she brought out the package and it said Made in China!! Apples from Andy's!!

And may I mention the bottled water that many of us buy that is flown over from Italy!!

[joehogan]

Okay, I will never go into that dammed Whole Foods store again! (unless I am really hungry and need to eat some of their free samples from their deli.


The key is to buy the locally grown produce that is IN season and not packaged in plastic.  I always look to see where produce is grown before buying it - no matter where I am shopping. We all need to learn to read labels and shop with our values - Whole Foods is no worse than any of the others.

A couple years ago a friend bought a package of dried APPLES at Andy's in Sebastopol to bring on a trip to China. In china on the bus, she brought out the package and it said Made in China!! Apples from Andy's!!

And may I mention the bottled water that many of us buy that is flown over from Italy!!

[scamperwillow]

Just remember, you are likely to run into the same thing no matter where you shop. (unless it is Community Market - wish there was one in Sebastopol)
Read the labels and Buy Local!


Okay, I will never go into that dammed Whole Foods store again! (unless I am really hungry and need to eat some of their free samples from their deli.

[The Owl]

Just remember, you are likely to run into the same thing no matter where you shop. (unless it is Community Market - wish there was one in Sebastopol)
Read the labels and Buy Local!

There used to be community markets in Guerneville and Monte Rio... in fact, the SR Community Market was actually an offshoot of the Monte Rio market back in the time of The Counterculture... before everyone lost their nerve during the oil crisis of the mid 70s and went running back to mama mainstream... both places were arsoned by disgruntled rednecks of the time who didn't like the hippies moving into "their" towns.
It just takes people willing to do it... a Sebastopol Community Market would be a huge success.

[daynurse]

:hmmm:
I'm just loving this idea and wish I had thought of it first! There is so much in the way of local products right in Sebastopol.
Unfortunately, I don't live in Seb anymore but I'd be happy to keep my fingers tapping to help make it happen. How bout we start a new thread with a new title?
Who would like to contribute to the formation of a new community market? Who can organize a preliminary meeting? Does someone know the original people who formed the first community markets?
I'll help all I can from Pt. Reyes.
Peggy

[The Owl]

:hmmm:
I'm just loving this idea and wish I had thought of it first! There is so much in the way of local products right in Sebastopol.
Unfortunately, I don't live in Seb anymore but I'd be happy to keep my fingers tapping to help make it happen. How bout we start a new thread with a new title?
Who would like to contribute to the formation of a new community market? Who can organize a preliminary meeting? Does someone know the original people who formed the first community markets?
I'll help all I can from Pt. Reyes.
Peggy

I wasn't a founding member but I worked at the Monte Rio Market for years before it burned down... One of the originators, ironically, now works as a checker at Seb Whole Foods. Another is in WF regional management. I'd want to speak with the checker first to see if it's OK to mention his name here.

[feltonius]

The key is to buy the locally grown produce that is IN season and not packaged in plastic.  I always look to see where produce is grown before buying it - no matter where I am shopping. We all need to learn to read labels and shop with our values - Whole Foods is no worse than any of the others.


No need to limit yourself to produce, there are local producers who raise humane, environmentally beneficial chicken and pork as well. Look for us advertising on Wacco. Just take a look at what Weston A Price Foundation has to say about phytates in soy robbing your system of iron and calcium before you try to use tofu or other unfermented soy products as a protein source.

On the note of local independant grocers, Bill's Farm Basket on hwy 12 at Sexton Rd. I had a chicken flyer there until someone took it down (thanks for that btw) and my pasture fed eggs are also there and usually in stock now that the days are getting longer...

thanks,
-marc

[Richard Nichols]

Why would anyone with a shred of conscious thought ever shop in WF. Pricey, the CEO is a jerk, we don't need most of that stuff to have a healthy life.


Okay, I will never go into that dammed Whole Foods store again! (unless I am really hungry and need to eat some of their free samples from their deli.

[scamperwillow]

Richard - where do you shop?



Why would anyone with a shred of conscious thought ever shop in WF. Pricey, the CEO is a jerk, we don't need most of that stuff to have a healthy life.

[feltonius]

hm, you make some interesting claims here. I wonder if these are true, or libelous?


Whole Foods may carry some healthy foods, but they don't buy from local farmers, they run small businesses out of town, and they cater to people who can afford to pay the highest prices with no concern for the public at large. Nice people work there, but they work for low wages and don't have much say in how the stores are run.

Safeway workers have a union, get health insurance and decent wages.

Barrie

I have seen eggs from Clark Summit Farm in Tomales at Whole Foods. Eggs from chickens that are actually let outdoors on pasture. Other than my own eggs, and Silva Star's, these are the ones I'd be willing to eat. survey says=X strike one

next you claim that Safeway workers make more "decent wages" than the workers at Whole Foods. And what evidence do you have for that claim? Have you done a survey? Is it just because you know that one is a union shop and the other is not, therefore it MUST be true? that logic, is, um....

I wonder if you thought through how it feels to a whole foods employee to read that? I don't work there but I'm disgusted on their behalf that you'd belittle their salaries. Unless you know for a FACT you shouldn't be dis'ing someone's wages in public. Likely if you did know the facts you'd show some respect.

So I'm going to say that's strike 2 because you provided no evidence to substantiate your claim and its quite likely you have no way of knowing if its true or not.

And then you say they cater only to rich people, because they are the only ones who can afford to pay high prices for food. Yet on the other hand you claim to care about local farmers and their well being. You clearly are not a local farmer and have never tried to be one. We pay less for food now than ever before in history, and its only because of how shamelessly we are spending our grandchildren's inheritance by using up all the planet's stored fuel resources and topsoil and climate stability. You probably drive a BMW but would FREAK out at the idea of an 8 dollar dozen of eggs. They should cost at least that much if the chickens are daily let outdoors on carefully farmed grassy/leguminous pastures to live like chickens deserve to live. Let me tell you it takes a LOT of work to farm well and I want to get PAID for that, at least so folks like you can't jump on Wacco and brag about you beat me down at the farmer's market and are pretty sure that I make less than the union guys over at Harris Ranch and Petaluma Poultry. People prioritize how they want to spend their money, and I bet there's lots of people who work really hard to shop at whole foods as much as possible and forgo lots of other goodies in life to do it. Good for them! 40 dollars is what the local wineries think is a fair price for a good single bottle of pinot noir. Why do the veggies and meats have to be so darn cheap?
Strike 3.

also the claim that they run small businesses out of town. this kind of claim can perhaps be made about companies with documentable predatory practices (usually from internal memos or emails), like we heard about starbucks deliberately opening next to existing coffee shops, or MSFT forcing manufacturers not to load other software. but I have seen nor heard no evidence of a deliberate attempt by whole foods to do anything provably predatory, other than open a successful store and sell some food, or buy another business who must have been willing to sell it and must have felt they got a good price. Someone told me the whole foods is in a location that was once such a store, and those owners made a good bit of money on that. Was it a hostile takeover? I think not. Does anybody on this forum actually run a business?

Do you provide evidence for this claim? No, in fact, you dont even list one single thing you think they are doing, other than business, which is perfectly legal even in Sebastopol, that runs other businesses out of town. Strike 4.

Do I think whole foods is 100% the shizzat? no, I think they could sell less stuff shipped from overseas. I think they could work harder to source and sell produce from local farmers. But I see more of it from them than I do at Safeway, that's for DARN sure. I went to safeway last month to get some balloons for my kids' birthday and my jaw literally dropped. I had the experience you hear people from other countries have, it had been that long for me. So much food-like-substance! so much of it processed, packaged, and pre-digested. yuck! I can at least handle a trip down the aisles in whole foods without wanting to shed tears for the loss of my environment to all this snazzy cheap food. Whole Foods is better than the rest of the big ones. Lets not let good be the enemy of great here!

Boycott whole foods if you want. I'm not going to read this whole thread. It would likely make my head explode to do so. I accidentally came across this post that I couldn't let stand by naively clicking from the digest and then I posted a response to something I thought reasonable and then somehow this one that made me say OMG was just there.

I understand that "organic" is an almost useless term usurped by industrial agriculture and that you probably can't create a perfect merger between small independent farmers and huge corporate giants. You can spray all kinds of "natural" chemicals on organic produce and you can raise them in huge mother nature hating mono-crops importing all your fertility without any on-farm livestock whatever. (Mother Nature never attempts to farm without livestock) But if you are going to talk smack, and not hurt your own cause, lets stick to the facts ma'am. Don't say stuff that you don't know is true. Definitely don't put such things in writing. Mommy taught me the first one and lawyers the second.

One thing whole foods is doing that I really respect, is they are working on a project on the east coast to enable small farmers who raise chickens in non-disgusting manners to process their chickens onsite in a USDA inspected mobile facility. Processing is a roadblock that keeps many small farmers out of the business so Tyson has a lock on it and they do it the yucky and cheap but environmentally expensive and horrible for the chickens way. So while we are here having fun making up stuff that they do is so wrong, they are actually working on ways to help change the food system. That is just ONE thing they are doing, I'm not a follower of what whole foods is up to, but saw that tweet and almost cried because I've got my processing equipment on a trailer too and I was trying to do the same thing: someday get it USDA inspected so local farmers who raise chickens on pasture could sell retail and to restaurants. They stole my idea (not really of course they just had the same idea simultaneously) and have so much greater chance at success than I do! However, I came to realize its amazing that they are also doing it, and it shows that whatever failings they have they are NOT rotten to the core.

Now, I probably should sit on this a little before I submit, I think I got a touch irate and that's never good for clarity...but what the heck, its getting late. nobody else seems to be showing any restraint....I have too much work that I'm not getting paid all that much for to read everything that gets posted to Wacco, so probably I wont even have to see it when everybody who's been having fun piling on whole foods here rips me a new one. :)

["Mad" Miles]

Feltonius,

Thank you for raising clean, organic, sustainable chickens who/which don't suffer until the very last minute and from what I vaguely recall other kinds of animal protein for human (and companion animal?) consumption.

Please read, or skim, the whole thread. Lots of posts, but a good discussion and plenty of info available. I promise, your head won't explode. As long as you take your time. Don't worry, it's all there waiting for you, and anyone else willing to make the effort. Just take your time and enjoy the erudition and factual recitations of your fellow waccobites.

As for late night posting, I only went on line to look up Jeremy Sisto, because of a movie he's in on IFC, and I thought I knew him from another piece. And I was right! He plays the crazy brother of the wackie Aussie in "Six Feet Under" whose the straight brothers main love interest. Not Jeremy, the wackie Ozzy.

Anyway. I'm an addictive checker of my email and the waccobb traffic, so here I am.

Whole Foods is not where I shop, ever. For reasons explicitly stated by me many months back and well articulated by others on this thread.

Can you say Green Washing? Union Busting? Lieing? CEO arrogance and insult? Forget the prices and hype. Consider the process and sourcing. Life is as much about how we do things, as it is about the results. In fact, the process is the result, in most things that matter.

It's all there. And as you work so hard to provide, there are many, many other alternatives.

Before anyone asks, I shop at Pacific/Fiesta, Speers, Community Market and best of all Bottle Barn!?

Hah!

"Mad" Miles

:burngrnbounce:

[n4rky]

This is from memory, so please forgive if I'm hazy or even incorrect on details. In partial answer to Feltonius, just to recap some points made earlier, mostly not by me, I think on this thread:

First, Safeway, et al, workers are being hired pretty close to minimum wage. Whole Foods workers are doing a little better, but still not really getting a living wage. Safeway indeed has a labor union, but it isn't taking care of its members. From what I gather, the health insurance plan at Whole Foods is fairly malicious with a weird combination of outrageous deductible and some kind of a credit that softens the first few hundred dollars of it.

Second, a number of local farmers have had very bad experiences with Whole Foods.

Third, apart from the detestable political views of the CEO (and probably the larger part of Whole Foods management), a big problem with shopping at Whole Foods is that shopping at any corporate chain with headquarters outside the area is that the money you spend gets sucked out of the local economy.

Fourth, there have been complaints about mislabeling of, for example, bananas as local produce. Some have complained that natural foods are not necessarily organic and felt that they were misled as to which was which.

Finally, while there are complaints about "Whole Paycheck" prices, I have personally found that if you shop carefully, you can do reasonably well. Still, I'm shopping more at Fiesta, Andy's, the grocery store at the south end of Sebastopol whose name escapes me at the moment, and at Oliver's. I still go into Whole Foods occasionally, but am trying to do it less.

[feltonius]

Feltonius,

Thank you for raising clean, organic, sustainable chickens who/which don't suffer until the very last minute and from what I vaguely recall other kinds of animal protein for human (and companion animal?) consumption.

Please read, or skim, the whole thread. Lots of posts, but a good discussion and plenty of info available. I promise, your head won't explode. As long as you take your time. Don't worry, it's all there waiting for you, and anyone else willing to make the effort. Just take your time and enjoy the erudition and factual recitations of your fellow waccobites.

[...snip...]

Whole Foods is not where I shop, ever. For reasons explicitly stated by me many months back and well articulated by others on this thread.

Can you say Green Washing? Union Busting? Lieing? CEO arrogance and insult? Forget the prices and hype. Consider the process and sourcing. Life is as much about how we do things, as it is about the results. In fact, the process is the result, in most things that matter.


ok. I feel vaguely guilty now that I've been responded to in such a peace loving manner. I will make time to read the thread, since you are sure I wont see too many posts that are waaay off base and full of unsubstantiated claims that show very little understanding of farming or the food system or the economy that like it or not, we must participate in because barter-for-everything is just not happening when you have 3 kids.

as for green washing, I completely agree, "certified organic" is certifiably bullsh!t. Knowing your farmer is the only remedy. I hope everyone on this thread is a member of Laguna Farm's CSA, or how about First Light Farm? People are saying that corporate food sucks out of one side of their mouths while at the same time they are saying high prices suck. People: duh! If you want better than you get at whole foods, you need to be willing to pay MORE than you do at whole foods. I'm sorry, but that's the fact. Scott and Nathan deserve top dollar for the work they and their employees do. I guess we'll all have to work as hard as they do.

as for the CEO, dont you feel just a little sorry for, or at least somewhat amused at, someone who's so insecure as to sock-puppet online making comments about how "cute" he is and his nice hair? that's funny. Wanna hate someone? Glenn Beck is pure evil. He said at CPAC that learned about the evils of taxes and progressivism at the "library, where books are free!" Can you be a more obvious idiot/hypocrite than that? (thanks Daily Show)

Mackey, he strikes me as a slight doofus who's head and shoulders less dangerous than every single republican senator who are simply lying when they say Americans don't want that health care bill to pass. I want it passed, and I have a passport. therefore, Mitch Mc-evil lies on microphone. Did Mackey outright lie or just say his own opinion? I really dont know what he said, but if he was just saying his views, even if they conflict with what we think they should be, that's not really evil-doing.



It's all there. And as you work so hard to provide, there are many, many other alternatives.

Before anyone asks, I shop at Pacific/Fiesta, Speers, Community Market and best of all Bottle Barn!?

Hah!

"Mad" Miles

:burngrnbounce:

thanks for that response, it totally calmed me down. I met the owner of Pacific at a Michael Pollan talk and he practically begged me to sell to him, but fact is I haven't cracked the veggie code yet and probably dont have enough arable land yet in my control to do it profitably. So I do what I can, because mainly, I want to contribute to a fix for all this in whatever way my current farming resources will allow.

Its likely I will continue to think that the demonization is going too far here, and, it might be a conservative talking point that I'm shockingly borrowing here, but if you want to make change, you need some kind of wedge, something that gets it started, and by tearing down Whole Foods we might be attacking the very wedge that is starting to make change in our food system.

It wouldn't be fun to attack Safeway, we all know what they are, but I even hear that Trader Joe's Organic milk gets very low ratings by folks who care, whereas you can find both Clover and Strauss at WF who both get the top ratings. There are SOME good selections at Whole Foods. If we shop at WF but ONLY for the good local stuff that they do sell and never buy stuff from Chile or with too much packaging etc they will respond because that's the only way they can survive. Should we instead know our farmers and buy direct? You bet! They aren't really mutually exclusive. I know of no maple syrup farms around here. Or sugar cane. Shop at Pacific? Definitely! Ken is a local owner and it is much better for our local economy to enrich him and his enterprise than a business headquartered elsewhere. He wants to buy from local farmers, I can attest to that. How much local product is on his shelves vs. WF? I am afraid I haven't surveyed it. Maybe someone else can answer that one...But put local money into a local business and the money is just sloshing around there's no new money. To enrich our economy we need to export product elsewhere and draw outside money in. That's why, as bad for the environment as it is to have so much acreage monocropped (but they earn enough money that many if not most of them do a fine job of stewardship), wine is so darn good for our county. Personally, I'm very proud of the fact that people from SF drive up to my farm to buy chicken and eggs. They might stop at Twin Hills to get some apple bread, then a local gas station, perhaps even check out downtown, grab an ice cream at Screamin' Mimi's and then get intrigued by Silk Moon or head over to Lynmar to really make a day of it.

We can't all get it all at the farmer's market, its dominated by candles and clothes and baskets and happens during church in my case, its just not a viable solution for everyone to get all their food. And I can't even get in there cause I just grow the same stuff as everyone else only not as much of it. I wish there was an easy way for a local farmer to sell produce. I'm still thinking really hard about that one. I'd welcome a thread about THAT, how can we make it easy for me to sell whatever produce I grow, in whatever amount I happen to grow it, whenever it happens to be ready to be harvested, for a really good price? There just isn't a good answer to that right now, because that's the planet saving question and tons of people are already thinking about it, but haven't figured it out.

[feltonius]

OK, took 40 minutes because I am a slow reader and followed many links, but I am now done with tab 1. and so far, just about every argument I made was already there in 2008 and 2009.
yes, their lawyers tried to do something naughty to a portland store when their merger was getting harrassed after it had already been completed. that's pretty much what lawyers do, and the company fought it, doesn't say but I bet successfully.

Was stoked to see a whole foods employee speak up. You Go!

Was even more stoked to see first light farm's Nathan himself post! I swear I mentioned him before reading tab1 because I volunteered once to help pack his boxes and got to help harvest salad mix. Right on!

and I saw a lot of arguments about why this or that market is better because the prices are lower. this is people "not getting it" IMO for reasons I've explained...you dont help local farmers or score yourself high quality food by shopping for price.

a few clueful comments also about the economy and running a business on tab1. I definitely now agree people should not post until they read tab1. Sure, its from a year ago, but for every wacky random post there is a counterpost with thought that seems quite lucid compared the few posts I read on tab4

tab 2 tomorrow...

[feltonius]

crap, I need to go to bed. is it obvious that I am obsessed with food issues and their impact on the environment and in fact our very survival as a species? have been since I studied the environment in college I'm afraid...



This is from memory, so please forgive if I'm hazy or even incorrect on details. In partial answer to Feltonius, just to recap some points made earlier, mostly not by me, I think on this thread:

First, Safeway, et al, workers are being hired pretty close to minimum wage. Whole Foods workers are doing a little better, but still not really getting a living wage. Safeway indeed has a labor union, but it isn't taking care of its members. From what I gather, the health insurance plan at Whole Foods is fairly malicious with a weird combination of outrageous deductible and some kind of a credit that softens the first few hundred dollars of it.


first, thank you too for such a nice recap. I still am committed to reading it all when I can make time because Miles asked me to.

On this point, I want to ask you what wage you think we farmers are able to pay? Do you think I can profitably steal some of WF's fine employees? I'd sure love to be able to. Some farmers I know get health care from West County Health Clinics because they don't themselves have health insurance. Can't afford it. So maybe WF isn't as good as they maybe could be, but they dont seem as bad either. somewhere in the middle, right?
If we farmers are going to be able to come even close to the awesome salary whole foods can afford to pay its employees (maybe I'm stretching a tad here) then we are going to need YOUR help, parting with your hard earned dollars to pay $6/lb for chicken because you know it was farmed right.



Second, a number of local farmers have had very bad experiences with Whole Foods.


OK, maybe this is on tab2 or 3. There was one such comment on tab1 but it was 3rd party heresay and as such completely useless as a comment. If we get some firsthand testimony on the other tabs I'll be interested to hear it.



Third, apart from the detestable political views of the CEO (and probably the larger part of Whole Foods management), a big problem with shopping at Whole Foods is that shopping at any corporate chain with headquarters outside the area is that the money you spend gets sucked out of the local economy.


true, some of it is bled off in the form of CEO and mgmt salary, a pretty small amount. Mackey makes a tiny fraction of what most corporate CEO's make in salary and that makes him one of the good guys. 300K/year is a lot more reasonable than 3 or 30 million/year. Not-that-high-ranking bankers just got 300K bonuses!

you know what sucks even more money out of the economy? Buying ANYTHING that was manufactured or produced elsewhere. That's the real deal killer. If we dont produce/manufacture it here, but we buy it, we are sending money out of our economy, whether we buy it from a locally owned store or not. Trip out on that for a minute. Where is the manufacturing in Sonoma County? We oppose on environmental grounds many attempts to source local raw materials, but fact is, we need to find ways to sustainably keep as much production here in Sonoma County as we can. Manufacturing, agriculture, even rock quarries and forestry is a lot better than strip malls and condos for our local economy. Can we screw up our environment while we are at it? No, for obvious reasons. We need to put our brain power and money towards ways to do it compatibly with all that lives and breathes.



Fourth, there have been complaints about mislabeling of, for example, bananas as local produce. Some have complained that natural foods are not necessarily organic and felt that they were misled as to which was which.


never saw that one whenever I've been sent there with a list, but admittedly I'm the most unwilling of food shoppers and I get tunnel vision and near vertigo in any shopping environment. I like to bring the kids along to give me something else to pay attention to.

natural, organic, whatever, you can't believe anything a big corporation tells you, they are in it for the money. I laughed when someone accused whole foods of wanting to "dominate" and "crush the competition" and then with the very next breath they said how good competition is and how important competition is to benefit the consumer. Has that person ever competed? Did that experience produce in them a desire to lose? Were they about to win but then right at the finish line stop and say "no, please, you first?" Guess what, competition produces a desire to crush the competition, to be dominant. Every competitor is supposed to desire a monopoly. Greed has become a virtue in our economy, all in the name of healthy competition. I'm not saying its great, but its one reason we need a government to prevent people breaking the law to do it. Wendell Berry blew my mind by saying in an interview that if we are to start paying attention to all this talk about the environment, we need to hear some simultaneous talk about lowering the standard of living. wow. that's truth, but it sure hurts. Cooperation instead of competition in healthy communities is going to mean sacrifices galore. Smacking WF around aint even close to the real answer if you ask me.



Finally, while there are complaints about "Whole Paycheck" prices, I have personally found that if you shop carefully, you can do reasonably well. Still, I'm shopping more at Fiesta, Andy's, the grocery store at the south end of Sebastopol whose name escapes me at the moment, and at Oliver's. I still go into Whole Foods occasionally, but am trying to do it less.

a lot really turns on your time. How much time do you have to be spending money, vs. making it? My wife, when I've given her a hard time about shopping there, has pointed to our kids and raised an eyebrow, indicating that I'm to drop the subject. She knows that sometimes she has to because reasonably quickly she can nail her whole list. She has invited me to grow as much as I can and she's made a great effort to cook more to utilize it. Now THAT saves lots of money. More people would do it, if, as I wish for, they could easily sell their surplus zucchini in the middle of summer. he he he

[Richard Nichols]

My wife and I are not purists, but we do grow our own. Otherwise Andys produce, Fircrest (it is close to our home and locally owned). Also one can get weekly veggie delivery from Laguna Farms.

I was a little to strong about WF. People should be aware of where they shop and what they buy, and who they are supporting, but if folks don't have any problem with WF, then go for it.
We indeed did shop there for a particular kind of acidolphilus to take during our recent trip to Mexico, becuase it was the obvious place to find that item and it saved going to S Rosa.

Richard - where do you shop?

[scamperwillow]

Richard, did you see my post about Andy's apples from China? In Sebastopol!!

My point is, none of these places are pure. It is up to us to shop wisely wherever it is we shop. Read labels, buy local and in season and so forth.




My wife and I are not purists, but we do grow our own. Otherwise Andys produce, Fircrest (it is close to our home and locally owned). Also one can get weekly veggie delivery from Laguna Farms.

I was a little to strong about WF. People should be aware of where they shop and what they buy, and who they are supporting, but if folks don't have any problem with WF, then go for it.
We indeed did shop there for a particular kind of acidolphilus to take during our recent trip to Mexico, becuase it was the obvious place to find that item and it saved going to S Rosa.

[Richard Nichols]

Scamperwillow, I'm with you. We have worked at being more local, it just takes more effort considering globalization. Chinese apples, Chile wine, the list is long.

[n4rky]

and I saw a lot of arguments about why this or that market is better because the prices are lower. this is people "not getting it" IMO for reasons I've explained...you dont help local farmers or score yourself high quality food by shopping for price.

I've been thinking about this point. And I think we have a problem here, and not because Feltonius is wrong. Quite the contrary.

Probably just about anyone who has worked for tips knows that, generally speaking, the rich are the worst tippers of the lot. They're the ones who think that generosity means letting you keep the coins from the change while they keep the bills.

Extrapolate from that, and you realize that the way the rich get richer is by devaluing everyone else. You're supposed to be so grateful for their business that you shouldn't expect a fair price. Or we're supposed to be so grateful for a job that we shouldn't expect a fair, living wage.

Like I said, Feltonius has a point.

The trouble is that the rest of us have been so devalued that we are now forced into the same behavior with everyone else, looking for the best deal, shopping at Wal-Mart, and so on. It is a charming scam that drives more business to big box discount retailers. As someone pointed out, Wal-Mart is profiting on the impoverishment of the United States.

Whole Foods has been labeled as the Wal-Mart of natural foods. And while I think the claim is a little overwrought, it is also not completely wrong. Whole Foods is, of course, not competing with Wal-Mart on price, but I do remember early in this recession that at least some stores posted sample shopping receipts from competitors along side receipts from their own stores to show how it was possible to shop competitively at Whole Foods.

Certainly Whole Foods could treat its employees better. Spare them the "team member" euphemism, let them organize a union, pay them better, let them have a decent health care plan. (Perhaps they have other grievances I don't know about.) Wal-Mart employees have parallel grievances and a lot more.

As to executive level salaries, I'm not inclined to let John Mackey off the hook for a relatively low salary until I know the value of his stock. I imagine that as a co-founder, he's probably doing quite nicely off of it. And I haven't heard that Whole Foods employees are sharing in company equity. But again, I imagine Mackey's compensation falls far short of that of your typical member of the Walton family.

In some ways, Wal-Mart has been a poster child for the abuses of globalization and corporate greed. It might be fair to note that Whole Foods' behavior has, as far as I know, not been nearly so egregious.

So a lot of the arguments against Whole Foods are really arguments against our economic system. Any system of exchange privileges the parties most able to say no. The well off inherently have luxuries in making deals that the poor, the indigent, and the desperate do not. We need to think about that. And I think the conclusion that emerges is that much of the attack against Whole Foods is misplaced.

That doesn't mean we shouldn't shop locally when possible. As long as we're stuck with a social, political, and economic system that assumes the worst in human nature, we should do everything possible to limit the power of greed. But it does suggest a more nuanced view of Whole Foods.

[jwheaton]

At the risk of of being slightly self-serving, I do want to mention that the local Whole Foods market does make generous donations to various local causes. In fact, on next Wednesday, March 3rd, they will be donating 5% of their take for that day to the Sebastopol Independent Charter School (the downtown Waldorf school on Burnett St.). This can be $2 - $3,000 dollars. So if you do shop and Whole Foods, please consider saving up your shopping for that day to help our local charter school!

Also, they recently did away with their membership in e-scrip - ostensibly because they didn't like to support the "middleman" - i.e. give any money to "e-scrip" corporation. They finally started their own program. If your non-profit org. wants to take on the burden of selling gift cards, you can purchase them for 96% of face value. When you sell them to your community at face-value, it is essentially the same as WF giving 4% directly to your organization.

Like most things in life, there are pros and cons of shopping there. But the educated consumer is the better-off consumer! Caveat Emptor!

-Jim Wheaton

[scamperwillow]

I contacted our local Whole Foods about this and they sent me this play by play response to the TV news story:

Whole Story Whole Foods Market responds to WJLA (https://blog.wholefoodsmarket.com/whole-foods-market-responds-to-wjla/)

Whole Foods Market responds to WJLA

This is a response to a news segment aired on WJLA (Washington, DC) on May 21, 2008.

I’m Joe Dickson, Organic Certification Coordinator for Whole Foods Market. I read WJLA’s news script with disbelief and disappointment, as it is totally misleading. To help clarify, I have taken the time to address the various claims made in the news segment to offer clarification and our point of view......and it goes on.....

[n4rky]

I contacted our local Whole Foods about this and they sent me this play by play response to the TV news story:

Whole Story Whole Foods Market responds to WJLA (https://blog.wholefoodsmarket.com/whole-foods-market-responds-to-wjla/)

One thing that troubles me about this--and I see it not only in this response to some sensational and dubious television journalism--is whether we should trust the U.S. government to certify organic food. There's been quite some controversy (https://www.organicconsumers.org/articles/article_18764.cfm) over whether genetically modified organisms can be considered organic; from what I can see, it looks like, for the moment, the USDA does not, but only because of strident consumer protest.

That does not mean it will remain so. If there is one thing the first year of the Obama administration has made blatantly clear, it is the unseemly influence of corporations on policy. USDA is the same agency whose regulation of and cozy relationship with the meat industry has been and remains (https://articles.latimes.com/2008/feb/07/local/me-usda7) subject to serious criticism (https://www.organicconsumers.org/toxic/chixpus.cfm).

In their response, Whole Foods claims that it allow "California Certified Organic Farmers" into its stores to assure the veracity of its handling. But when people worry about whether a product is organic, they worry more about what happens at nearly every step of the production/growing process before products are loaded into trucks and transported to market. So this claim seems specious.

I would be much more comfortable if Whole Foods relied on another organic standard.

[just right repair]

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Locked="false" Priority="33" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" QFormat="true" Name="Book Title"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="37" Name="Bibliography"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="39" QFormat="true" Name="TOC Heading"/> </w:LatentStyles> </xml><![endif]--><style> <!-- /* Font Definitions */ @font-face {font-family:"Cambria Math"; panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4; mso-font-charset:0; mso-generic-font-family:roman; mso-font-pitch:variable; mso-font-signature:-1610611985 1107304683 0 0 415 0;} @font-face {font-family:Calibri; panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4; mso-font-charset:0; mso-generic-font-family:swiss; mso-font-pitch:variable; mso-font-signature:-520092929 1073786111 9 0 415 0;} /* Style Definitions */ p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal {mso-style-unhide:no; mso-style-qformat:yes; mso-style-parent:""; margin-top:0in; margin-right:0in; margin-bottom:10.0pt; margin-left:0in; text-indent:.5in; line-height:115%; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; 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mso-fareast-theme-font:minor-fareast; mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri; mso-hansi-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-theme-font:minor-bidi;} </style> <![endif]--> Whole Foods, Did we get fooled again? Michael Blue Jay, details the positive aspects of Whole Foods as well as many negative ones in an article which can be found by going to Bing and looking for Whole Foods. In a very eloquent way, he lays out the facts. It seems Whole Foods is running a Wal-Mart style business which is anti-union, anti-community and unscrupulous. John Mackey, the CEO of Whole Foods has fired workers in Wisconsin for wanting to be part of a union, and squashed smaller local natural food stores and wrote an op-ed column in which he decried the president’s proposed health care reforms. I would suggest that the employees of whole foods stand up to John Mackey and demand a union. The change can start here in Sebastopol. The people here would support you. It’s a good store with an unscrupulous owner.



Why would anyone with a shred of conscious thought ever shop in WF. Pricey, the CEO is a jerk, we don't need most of that stuff to have a healthy life.

[just right repair]

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Locked="false" Priority="33" SemiHidden="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" QFormat="true" Name="Book Title"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="37" Name="Bibliography"/> <w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="39" QFormat="true" Name="TOC Heading"/> </w:LatentStyles> </xml><![endif]--><style> <!-- /* Font Definitions */ @font-face {font-family:"Cambria Math"; panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4; mso-font-charset:0; mso-generic-font-family:roman; mso-font-pitch:variable; mso-font-signature:-1610611985 1107304683 0 0 415 0;} @font-face {font-family:Calibri; panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4; mso-font-charset:0; mso-generic-font-family:swiss; mso-font-pitch:variable; mso-font-signature:-520092929 1073786111 9 0 415 0;} /* Style Definitions */ p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal {mso-style-unhide:no; mso-style-qformat:yes; mso-style-parent:""; margin-top:0in; margin-right:0in; margin-bottom:10.0pt; margin-left:0in; text-indent:.5in; line-height:115%; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:12.0pt; mso-bidi-font-size:14.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"; mso-fareast-font-family:Calibri;} .MsoChpDefault {mso-style-type:export-only; mso-default-props:yes; font-size:10.0pt; mso-ansi-font-size:10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-size:10.0pt; mso-fareast-font-family:Calibri;} @page Section1 {size:8.5in 11.0in; margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in; mso-header-margin:.5in; mso-footer-margin:.5in; mso-paper-source:0;} div.Section1 {page:Section1;} --> </style><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style> /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-priority:99; mso-style-qformat:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0in; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri; mso-ascii-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-theme-font:minor-fareast; mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri; mso-hansi-theme-font:minor-latin; mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-theme-font:minor-bidi;} </style> <![endif]--> Whole Foods, Did we get fooled again? Michael Blue Jay, details the positive aspects of Whole Foods as well as many negative ones in an article which can be found by going to Bing and looking for Whole Foods. In a very eloquent way, he lays out the facts. It seems Whole Foods is running a Wal-Mart style business which is anti-union, anti-community and unscrupulous. John Mackey, the CEO of Whole Foods has fired workers in Wisconsin for wanting to be part of a union, and squashed smaller local natural food stores and wrote an op-ed column in which he decried the president’s proposed health care reforms. I would suggest that the employees of whole foods stand up to John Mackey and demand a union. The change can start here in Sebastopol. The people here would support you. It’s a good store with an unscrupulous owner.

[flygal]

Personally, I would rather spend my money to support our local farmers, etc and have some money left over to make a direct donation to your organization. Then, I would feel doubly good and still wouldn't have to spend my whole paycheck at Whole Foods.


At the risk of of being slightly self-serving, I do want to mention that the local Whole Foods market does make generous donations to various local causes. In fact, on next Wednesday, March 3rd, they will be donating 5% of their take for that day to the Sebastopol Independent Charter School (the downtown Waldorf school on Burnett St.). This can be $2 - $3,000 dollars. So if you do shop and Whole Foods, please consider saving up your shopping for that day to help our local charter school!

Also, they recently did away with their membership in e-scrip - ostensibly because they didn't like to support the "middleman" - i.e. give any money to "e-scrip" corporation. They finally started their own program. If your non-profit org. wants to take on the burden of selling gift cards, you can purchase them for 96% of face value. When you sell them to your community at face-value, it is essentially the same as WF giving 4% directly to your organization.

Like most things in life, there are pros and cons of shopping there. But the educated consumer is the better-off consumer! Caveat Emptor!

-Jim Wheaton

[Clancy]

Publicizing donations to charity IS self serving. I don't think it's really charity when you get to write it off and use it to attract business and polish your corporate image, especially considering WF gouges the poor people so.



At the risk of of being slightly self-serving, I do want to mention that the local Whole Foods market does make generous donations to various local causes. In fact, on next Wednesday, March 3rd, they will be donating 5% of their take for that day to the Sebastopol Independent Charter School (the downtown Waldorf school on Burnett St.). This can be $2 - $3,000 dollars. So if you do shop and Whole Foods, please consider saving up your shopping for that day to help our local charter school!

Also, they recently did away with their membership in e-scrip - ostensibly because they didn't like to support the "middleman" - i.e. give any money to "e-scrip" corporation. They finally started their own program. If your non-profit org. wants to take on the burden of selling gift cards, you can purchase them for 96% of face value. When you sell them to your community at face-value, it is essentially the same as WF giving 4% directly to your organization.

Like most things in life, there are pros and cons of shopping there. But the educated consumer is the better-off consumer! Caveat Emptor!

-Jim Wheaton

[BancheroTreeService]

I think the issue I take most with Whole Foods is that, Whole Foods doesn't have an ideology, they have a brand image.

They do sometimes carry local products, if they can make a decent margin on it.

They also carry the BS certified organic Chinese stuff if they can make a decent margin on it.

Whole Foods is a publicly traded company they have a legal responsibility to make the maximum possible return for their investors...PERIOD

I am reminded of the story of Mercedes cars coming to America. After World War II it was very difficult for Mercedes to break into the American market. Mercedes at first tried to compete with their pricing structure from Germany, pricing their cars very close to their American competitors. Mercedes wasn't really successful in the States until they decided to capture the elite market by simply raising prices. Raising prices gave the cars status and they sold like crazy.

When I walk into a Whole Foods and I look at a product that isn't produced locally, isn't organic, produced in a monoculture system with economies of scale and still costs more...that sucks. There are still people out there who shop at whole foods because they have been brainwashed with sophisticated marketing to believe that they will be a better person for paying more at whole foods. I think whole foods capitalizes on peoples insecurities about how to fit harmoniously into a world that is so out of balance.

[lynn]

...There are still people out there who shop at whole foods because they have been brainwashed with sophisticated marketing to believe that they will be a better person for paying more at whole foods. I think whole foods capitalizes on peoples insecurities about how to fit harmoniously into a world that is so out of balance."...

Well, I don't know about that...But, what I do know is that when you walk in their store (in S.R.) where do you walk in at?...Right by the yummy smelling bakery...Yummy comfort food, which gives you a nice, wonderful warmy feeling right away...THAT's good marketing - right on the physical/emotional survival level...

Their stores do have a very nice overall feeling to them with the bakery/deli's/olive bars...Making it all very enticing - esp. if you're hungry...Plenty of marketing research went into that I'm sure...

They have their 'cheap' 365 brand...They do carry the good producers like Lundberg, and have good meats...So, that must be a help for the more conscientious farmers...

And besides...no-one else I know of has that pineapple-chicken- sausage...It's so darn good...:)...