Be counted for humane tolerance

[Peace Seeker]

Updated introduction - May 21, 2008:

Dear friends and neighbors,

I am interested in an ongoing discussion with concerned, humanitarian members of our local Sonoma County community, about the nature and causes of prejudice, about remedies for prejudice, and about specific actions people are taking to remedy prejudice.

I plan to pursue this topical discussion of prejudice and its remedies, independently of discussions people conduct about other topics, on this thread.

If you would like to join this discussion about prejudice and its remedies, I invite you to respond here, or in direct correspondence with me at the following eMail address:

Al Salaam Alaykum, Shalom, Namaste, Peace

David L. Hoffman, Coordinator
Humanity Check
Interfaith Peace and Reconciliation Project
PMB 560, 122 Calistoga Road
Santa Rosa, CA 95409
USA
[email protected] ([email protected])
(added, May 21, 2008)


_____________________________________________________

FIRST POST to THREAD -- April 28, 2008:

I just found a great on-line project, set up by the Southern Poverty Law Center called "Stand Strong Against Hate".

You can include yourself on an online map of people in the U.S. standing against prejudice.

Go to https://www.splcenter.org/center/petitions/standstrong/

Enter your name, eMail address and Zip Code (this is kept confidential).

As people sign up, a map of the US gets shaded - by county -- into deeper and deeper shades of green (by "density" of supporters). This green overlay is placed over a U.S. map that already has red dots for the HQs of known US hate groups.

It's a relief to see the two displays combined, and be reminded that for each of these hate groups there are hundreds of determined people of good will going on record to stand for humane values.

I just entered my name. I immediately got this great (automated) response:



Thank you for standing strong against hate, David.
Standing strong with you are:
80 of your neighbors in SONOMA County
2073 fellow residents of CALIFORNIA. Good News indeed!

If everyone on WaccoBB who shares Southern Poverty Law Center's vision of a humane, tolerant nationa signed in, we'd REALLY see a high number for Sonoma County!

David Hoffman




____________________________



Continuing the
Stand Strong Against Hate
Campaign


I encourage more readers to sign onto the Southern Poverty Law Center's (SPLC) Web Page, mapping people in the U.S. who Stand Strong Against Hate.


Here's the procedure:

<LI class=list_spacer>Go to the campaign Web page: https://www.splcenter.org/center/petitions/standstrong/ (https://www.splcenter.org/center/petitions/standstrong/) <LI class=list_spacer>Enter your name, eMail address and Zip Code (this is kept confidential). <LI class=list_spacer>As people sign, a map of the US gets shaded - by county -- into deeper and deeper shades of green (by "density" of supporters). This green overlay is placed over a U.S. map that already has red dots for the Headquarters of known US hate groups (as identified by SPLC).
You will get an automated reply, updating the number of campaign supporters who've signed from Sonoma County, and from California. Please cut and paste this updated report to us, in a message to this thread.

We first joined this campaign and started publicizing here and elsewhere in Sonoma County on April 28, 2008. There were already 80 Sonoma County signers. 5 days later there were 95 signers.

In other words, the results of our publicizing the Stand Strong Against Hate campaign on April 28, 2008 were:

The number of Sonoma County signers increased by about 20% within five days, from 80 to 95.

It's not certain whether all or only some of those 15 people signed on because of this initiative. I suspect that's true for most of them. I know people forwarded the information on - both within Sonoma County and elsewhere in the US, including posting to several other Listserves.



<!-- / message --><!-- edit note -->

[Reportanddeport]

I DO stand strong against hate. That's why I stand strong against the Southern Perverty Law Center and their lies about pro-American and pro-law and order groups, like the Minutemen Civil Defense Corps and Save Our State. The SPLC is a communist and globalist front group, just like the ACLU. The SPLC has a massive enemies list, which they label as "hate groups". Some are legitimate hate groups, but most of them aren't.

The Globalists and Communists are working together, and the SPLC is part of that collaboration.

Whyyy will the FMLN be marching in Thursday's commie parade in Santa Rosa? Because they share common interests with the agri-business exploiters of illegal aliens. They are technically polar opposites, but they work together because the business and the commie side both benefit from illegal immigration. Politics makes strange bedfellows.


I just found a great on-line project, set up by the Southern Poverty Law Center called "Stand Strong Against Hate".

You can include yourself on an online map of people in the U.S. standing against prejudice.

Go to https://www.splcenter.org/center/petitions/standstrong/

Enter your name, eMail address and Zip Code (this is kept confidential).

As people sign up, a map of the US gets shaded - by county -- into deeper and deeper shades of green (by "density" of supporters). This green overlay is placed over a U.S. map that already has red dots for the HQs of known US hate groups.

It's a relief to see the two displays combined, and be reminded that for each of these hate groups there are hundreds of determined people of good will going on record to stand for humane values.

I just entered my name. I immediately got this great (automated) response:


Thank you for standing strong against hate, David.


Standing strong with you are:


80 of your neighbors in SONOMA County


2073 fellow residents of CALIFORNIA.
Good News indeed!

Of everyone on WaccoBB who shares Southern Poverty Law Center's vision of a humane, tolerant nationa signed in, we'd REALLY see a high number for Sonoma County!

David

[handy]

Democracy deserves what it tolerates.

Tolerance is a function of perceived superiority.
Distasteful at best...

[Reportanddeport]

The killer had been convicted of driving while intoxicated and received deferred adjudication (https://www.texasbar.com/Template.cfm?Section=Home&CONTENTID=14894&TEMPLATE=/ContentManagement/ContentDisplay.cfm) (charges were dismissed) for indecency with a child before he was deported in 1999. Then, he sneaked back into America, and after being arrested for speeding and driving without a license, pulled out a hidden gun and yelled racist “epithets” as he put four bullets into the back of the head of the African-American, Police Officer. Defense attorney Danalynn Recer said a childhood head injury caused Quintero anxiety attacks and staring spells for most of his life. She said Quintero began drinking alcohol when he was 8 and used alcohol to medicate himself. NOW, ALL GOOD LIBERALS CAN CRY FOR THE KILLER AND MAKE EXCUSES FOR THIS MURDER. WHERE is the Southern Poverty Law Center and the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People, organizations ALLEGEDLY opposed to racism, now that an African-American has been murdered in a “Hate Crime” committed by an illegal alien?
WWW.CHRON.COM (https://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/headline/metro/5737897.html) THE TRIAL OF JUAN LEONARDO QUINTERO

[Peace Seeker]

Dear Handy,

You wrote:

Democracy deserves what it tolerates.

Tolerance is a function of perceived superiority.
Distasteful at best...[/quote]

==============================

I understand the reasoning of your statement.

Here's how I see the reality of this question:

There is a false form of tolerance, where people see themselves as superior to others, who they condescendingly "tolerate".

True tolerance is respectful, appreciative coexistence with people who you perceive as dramatically different from yourself. I believe that's the meaning most people in our culture give to the word. Not superiority, or "barely tolerating" someone you secretly disrespect.

It's true -- as I think you're implying -- that some people imagine they are superior to others, based on perceived "greater tolerance". That's something we need to remember and check ourselves for.

I'd rather see people striving to be more tolerant, than have people give up for some reason, and not strive to be more tolerant.

But regardless of whether or not readers think tolerance entails some form of covert arrogance, I believe most WaccoBB readers support the values of intercommunal good will and peaceable coexistence. So I hope people will sign onto the Southern Poverty Law Center's Web page and Stand Strong Against Hate:

https://www.splcenter.org/center/petitions/standstrong/ (https://www.splcenter.org/center/petitions/standstrong/)


David

[Braggi]

Standing strong with you are:
87 of your neighbors in SONOMA County
2116 fellow residents of CALIFORNIA.

-Jeff



...
But regardless of whether or not readers think tolerance entails some form of covert arrogance, I believe most WaccoBB readers support the values of intercommunal good will and peaceable coexistence. So I hope people will sign onto the Southern Poverty Law Center's Web page and Stand Strong Against Hate:

https://www.splcenter.org/center/petitions/standstrong/ (https://www.splcenter.org/center/petitions/standstrong/)


David

[Zeno Swijtink]

Make that 88, and 2117.

Would be interesting to know the contrary map, of those who are not standing strong ...


Standing strong with you are:
87 of your neighbors in SONOMA County
2116 fellow residents of CALIFORNIA.

-Jeff

[Valley Oak]

This is what I read after I signed on against hate:

Standing strong with you are:
89 of your neighbors in SONOMA County
2120 fellow residents of CALIFORNIA.

And here is the email I received immediately afterwards:

Edward, thank you, again, for standing strong against hate by adding yourself to our map as a voice for tolerance. People of goodwill can make a difference in the fight to expose organized racism and hate in our country. Remember to be an advocate for justice and speak out against hate wherever and whenever you see it.

Tell your friends to stand strong against hate:
https://www.StandStrongAgainstHate.org (https://www.standstrongagainsthate.org/)

Learn about hate groups in your area on our Hate Map:
https://www.splcenter.org/intel/map/hate.jsp

Learn to respond to everyday bigotry and speak out against hate through our Speak Up! and 10 Ways to Fight Hate publications.
https://www.tolerance.org/speakup/index.html
https://www.tolerance.org/10_ways/index.html

Donate to the Southern Poverty Law Center and support our work for justice and tolerance.
https://secure.splcenter.org/donate/online/online.jsp

You can contact the Southern Poverty Law Center online:
https://www.splcenter.org/center/contact.jsp

Southern Poverty Law Center
400 Washington Ave.
Montgomery, AL 36104
334.956.8200
https://www.splcenter.org (https://www.splcenter.org/)

Sure feels good!

Edward



Make that 88, and 2117.

Would be interesting to know the contrary map, of those who are not standing strong ...

[Reportanddeport]

The killer had been convicted of driving while intoxicated and received deferred adjudication (https://www.texasbar.com/Template.cfm?Section=Home&CONTENTID=14894&TEMPLATE=/ContentManagement/ContentDisplay.cfm) (charges were dismissed) for indecency with a child before he was deported in 1999. Then, he sneaked back into America, and after being arrested for speeding and driving without a license, pulled out a hidden gun and yelled racist “epithets” as he put four bullets into the back of the head of the African-American, Police Officer. Defense attorney Danalynn Recer said a childhood head injury caused Quintero anxiety attacks and staring spells for most of his life. She said Quintero began drinking alcohol when he was 8 and used alcohol to medicate himself. NOW, ALL GOOD LIBERALS CAN CRY FOR THE KILLER AND MAKE EXCUSES FOR THIS MURDER. WHERE is the Southern Poverty Law Center and the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People, organizations ALLEGEDLY opposed to racism, now that an African-American has been murdered in a “Hate Crime” committed by an illegal alien?
WWW.CHRON.COM (https://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/headline/metro/5737897.html) THE TRIAL OF JUAN LEONARDO QUINTERO

[Melodymama]

Valley Oak wrote:This is what I read after I signed on against hate:

Standing strong with you are:
89 of your neighbors in SONOMA County
2120 fellow residents of CALIFORNIA.

And here is the email I received immediately afterwards:

Edward, thank you, again, for standing strong against hate by adding yourself to our map as a voice for tolerance. People of goodwill can make a difference in the fight to expose organized racism and hate in our country. Remember to be an advocate for justice and speak out against hate wherever and whenever you see it.

and now it is 90 from Sonoma County and 2121 from California.
Thanks for the referral. It is a daily journey to ask myself why I dismiss someone or find myself in judgement when my intention is to respect and find value. Old habits die hard, and yet this is such an important shift for self, for our community and the world. It feels good to be moving on the path in concert with other lovely humaniods. Laura

[Melodymama]

Reportanddeport wrote: The killer had been convicted ......

It is amazing to me that you are still hammering on and on with this redundant message. You have stated your case. It seems that you have only one message (your moniker) and yet you have to restate it daily. Thank you, it has been heard. I am trying hard to respect you and your right to express. Thank you for giving me this challenge. I do not understand what your goal is here and how you will ever know if you are attaining it. Therefore, I suppose we will continue to see your posts about the same issues with the same attitude. I wonder if you are clear on what your goal is. There is no need to reply.

[Reportanddeport]

No redundancy here, this was a new post, and it was relevant. In a thread promoting the SPLC, I presented the case of an African-American murdered by an illegal alien and that I did not receive any word of this from the SPLC. Maybe if you know the SPLC better than I do, then you can show me the URL where the SPLC condemned this murder.

The SPLC is a Globalist/Communist front group. They are NOT a civil rights organization. Whyyyyyy do "Progressives" support the very front groups that give cover to Corporatism?

Remember when Libs used to be OPPOSED to corporatism? WHAT HAPPENED to that movement?

WHERE WAS YOUR SPLC when this Black man was gunned down?

My "goal" is to support the U.S.A., not undercut it.

My "attitude" is that garbage is garbage and that it should be confronted in a firm and responsible way.



Reportanddeport wrote: The killer had been convicted ......

It is amazing to me that you are still hammering on and on with this redundant message. You have stated your case. It seems that you have only one message (your moniker) and yet you have to restate it daily. Thank you, it has been heard. I am trying hard to respect you and your right to express. Thank you for giving me this challenge. I do not understand what your goal is here and how you will ever know if you are attaining it. Therefore, I suppose we will continue to see your posts about the same issues with the same attitude. I wonder if you are clear on what your goal is. There is no need to reply.

[babaruss]

I DO stand strong against hate. That's why I stand strong against the Southern Perverty Law Center and their lies about pro-American and pro-law and order groups, like the Minutemen Civil Defense Corps and Save Our State. The SPLC is a communist and globalist front group, just like the ACLU. The SPLC has a massive enemies list, which they label as "hate groups". Some are legitimate hate groups, but most of them aren't.

The Globalists and Communists are working together, and the SPLC is part of that collaboration.

Whyyy will the FMLN be marching in Thursday's commie parade in Santa Rosa? Because they share common interests with the agri-business exploiters of illegal aliens. They are technically polar opposites, but they work together because the business and the commie side both benefit from illegal immigration. Politics makes strange bedfellows.


I'm not the brightest bulb in the house, but it seems to me that Report and Deport is really blind to his own bigotry.
Communists under every bush (leading every demonstration ?) wow...scary stuff. Whatever shall we do !! Run the sky is falling !!
What was wrong with someone being a Communist ?
This is America isn't it. We are all supposed to have the freedom to believe what we want...right ?
And no.... Communism doesn't appeal to me.
Neither does bigotry...the deal is that I can only successfully fight bigotry within myself.
I try not to get insane about those who don't, or won't take up that challenge.
That doesn't mean that I haven't tried to fight bigotry, and racism, first hand via politically motivated organizations.
Got by self pretty badly pummeled a few times in Mississippi and Alabama
in early 60's while making a show of support for equal rights, voting rights etc.
I didn't think a whole hell of a lot of the leadership of the organizations I was part of during that time. Who they were was not as import to me as what the particular goal was.
Sometime later I decided to do the same thing with Gay and Lesbian rights.
Lots of what can be called my 'bleeding heart liberalism' will be assumed regarding involvement with such causes, but that really was not the case.
As I learned new information about diverse people (which means I got out of my tiny little world, and into the larger world) I felt the need to lend what little support I could offer, which was mostly walking picket lines, participating in demonstrations etc.
It was never important to me that there might be Communists lurking in the shadows. What was import was for me to get my head out of my butt and do something !
I was amazed to realize how long I had been wandering about in my own personal bubble before I began notice such things as racial hatred, and other forms of bigotry were there.

I've tried a couple times to become involved in online communication here at WaccoBB and dropped out almost as quickly because of what I percieved to be zenophobia and racial hatred coming from people like Report and Deport ...who seems to be obsessed with murder, rape, and crimes committed by people in this country illegally... primarily Mexicans.
What a narrow little point of focus this is.
Crime is crime where ever it is....and crimes committed by illegals is just a drop in the bucket compared to all the other crimes committed in this nation.
I was ready for one hell of a rant, when it suddenly came to me that I was predjudiced and outright bigoted againt his prespective.
I still am...just wanted acknowledge that fact before I try to find a way to include people like him into my world.. a world of people to understand, tolerate, and accept. After all this is America (warts and all) and we are all entitled to our points of view.
Someone once said to me that "love was total acceptance of each person's
unique means of expressing his evoluting presence"
Guess I've got a way to go for that to happen.
Still I never hurts to take ownership for my deficiencies.
Once I can accept that I am off in my thinking, and actions, I can then seek out ways to get back on track.
Way too much rattling on here...another failing I'll have to find a solution to.
I wanted to try one more time to participate in these forums before decided to hang it up and go back to minding my own business.
Russ

[Peace Seeker]

Dear Russ,

Thank you for these righteous and truthful words:


I can only successfully fight bigotry within myself.

I try not to get insane about those who don't, or won't take up that challenge.

[ ... ]

I[t] never hurts to take ownership for my deficiencies.
Once I can accept that I am off in my thinking, and actions, I can then seek out ways to get back on track.


You closed by saying:


"I wanted to try one more time to participate in these forums before decided to hang it up and go back to minding my own business."
I can understand your frustration Russ. I've had many similar experiences with on-line discussions.

Maybe we can make this one better -- at least this thread. To do that, we will need everyone who can to bring her/his best self forward. I see that happening already on this thread, so I'm hopeful it can dontinue.


Here's my proposal to any interested readers:

=============================


Dear friends,

I would like to see two things happen on this thread, one of which Russ and several other thoughtful souls have done -- which is to wrestle more deeply with how we can remedy prejudice.

Discuss:


How can we better see and rein in our own reactive, stereotyping impulses?
How can we react beneficially to others, when we believe they are speaking or acting with prejudice?
What (if anything) can we do to ensure that others in our community aren't victimized by prejudice, or seduced into it (especially kids and teens)?
The other thing I hope continues via this thread is that more readers sign onto SPLC's Stand Strong Against Hate Web page, and update us with the new figures for Sonoma County and California.

I definitely DON'T want people to flame at each other about immigrants or Communists or the Minute Men or anyone else -- no matter how awful, or wrong-headed or dangerous you think they are.

In my case I am an Evangelical Christian, and a democratic, nonviolent, non-Machiavellian Marxist. Many inaccurate, harmful mis-perceptions about Marxism are prevalent in our political culture -- even among humanitarian progressive activists; certainly in mainstream US political discourse; and of course in hard right discourse. Some of these are simplistic, hostile sound-bites, demonizing Marxism with curses and insults, or by listing abuses which occurred in the USSR, or during Mao Tse Tung's Cultural Revolution, or in other flawed and tragic attempts to implement and enforce Marxist utopian visions. Others are more elaborate theoretical attacks, raised not in sincere truth-seeking but to poison intellectuals' minds against any form of Marxist thought, and thereby keep Marxist theory out of US mainstream politics. This makes it very difficult for principled, humanitarian Marxists to be heard in any way. For this reason, I would like to ask R&D to refrain from using words like "Commie" -- words which hurl simplistic, inaccurate and slanderous abuse at me and at many other principled activists.

Similar selective condemnation gets misused against Christianity (using horror stories from the Spanish Inquisition; religious rationalizations for chattel slavery and the extermination of North American aborigines; violent and preposterous ravings by contemporary hardline televangelists ...).

We need to separate our indictments of abuses perpetrated in the names of idealisms, from the positive, worthy passions which are present in those idealisms.

And on the other hand, we each need to be more candid and critical about the pitfalls and abuses of our own ideologies, and more appreciative of the good which others' ideologies offer to Humanity.

Self-styled progressives undermine the legitimacy of our own outrage, that R&D doesn't extend respect and thoughtful consideration to our values and passions, unless we extend comparable respect and thoughtful consideration to R&D and his ultimate values. I do see R&D's statements and actions as objectionable and wrong-headed. But I also believe that in his view, he is trying to safeguard things that are precious to him, which he believes are imperilled. I don't believe he accurately grasps the nature and implications of immigration, or the implications of his statements, actions and proposals. But that is not an excuse to demonize him.

I don't know whether we can establish this kind of respectful dialogue on this thread. If we do, I don't know who will participate constructively and who will mock and disrupt it. I recommend that if someone baits others, or vents rage or disrespect toward others, that the rest of us refrain from taking that bait, or fueling that rage, with reactive sarcasm or rage of our own. We can have a constructive discussion regardless of whether everyone who posts is participating in it constructively. It may take restraint and focus, but we can do it.

So I invite people to continue this conversation here -- or to eMail me privately -- about how to remedy prejudice. We can share our successes, frustrations and thoughts about efforts to remedy prejudice.


Two further thoughts:


There is a mature, beneficial use of anger: Channel it into calm determination.
True revolution mobilizes people against harmful situations. Not people against other people.
David Hoffman

[Reportanddeport]

Anti-Americanism is bigotry. Communism is bigotry against successful people and free people and private people. Just about anything a person is against can be construed as bigotry. I am definitely bigoted against illegal immigration and illegal immigrants. I am firmly against them and there's NOTHING WRONG with that.




I'm not the brightest bulb in the house, but it seems to me that Report and Deport is really blind to his own bigotry.
Communists under every bush (leading every demonstration ?) wow...scary stuff. Whatever shall we do !! Run the sky is falling !!
What was wrong with someone being a Communist ?
This is America isn't it. We are all supposed to have the freedom to believe what we want...right ?
And no.... Communism doesn't appeal to me.
Neither does bigotry...the deal is that I can only successfully fight bigotry within myself.
I try not to get insane about those who don't, or won't take up that challenge.
That doesn't mean that I haven't tried to fight bigotry, and racism, first hand via politically motivated organizations.
Got by self pretty badly pummeled a few times in Mississippi and Alabama
in early 60's while making a show of support for equal rights, voting rights etc.
I didn't think a whole hell of a lot of the leadership of the organizations I was part of during that time. Who they were was not as import to me as what the particular goal was.
Sometime later I decided to do the same thing with Gay and Lesbian rights.
Lots of what can be called my 'bleeding heart liberalism' will be assumed regarding involvement with such causes, but that really was not the case.
As I learned new information about diverse people (which means I got out of my tiny little world, and into the larger world) I felt the need to lend what little support I could offer, which was mostly walking picket lines, participating in demonstrations etc.
It was never important to me that there might be Communists lurking in the shadows. What was import was for me to get my head out of my butt and do something !
I was amazed to realize how long I had been wandering about in my own personal bubble before I began notice such things as racial hatred, and other forms of bigotry were there.

I've tried a couple times to become involved in online communication here at WaccoBB and dropped out almost as quickly because of what I percieved to be zenophobia and racial hatred coming from people like Report and Deport ...who seems to be obsessed with murder, rape, and crimes committed by people in this country illegally... primarily Mexicans.
What a narrow little point of focus this is.
Crime is crime where ever it is....and crimes committed by illegals is just a drop in the bucket compared to all the other crimes committed in this nation.
I was ready for one hell of a rant, when it suddenly came to me that I was predjudiced and outright bigoted againt his prespective.
I still am...just wanted acknowledge that fact before I try to find a way to include people like him into my world.. a world of people to understand, tolerate, and accept. After all this is America (warts and all) and we are all entitled to our points of view.
Someone once said to me that "love was total acceptance of each person's
unique means of expressing his evoluting presence"
Guess I've got a way to go for that to happen.
Still I never hurts to take ownership for my deficiencies.
Once I can accept that I am off in my thinking, and actions, I can then seek out ways to get back on track.
Way too much rattling on here...another failing I'll have to find a solution to.
I wanted to try one more time to participate in these forums before decided to hang it up and go back to minding my own business.
Russ

[Zeno Swijtink]

(...) I am definitely bigoted against illegal immigration and illegal immigrants. I am firmly against them and there's NOTHING WRONG with that.

It's not ALL wrong but there is SOMETHING wrong with that.

You're missing the details of their life story, how they, like you, try to build a happy life, try to do something that makes them recognized, just like you.

[santarosie]

All humans should be given an opportunity to be heard and appreciated for who and what they are, no matter how different from you they look, sound, or act. Relating to people from all different walks of life is mind and heart expanding, and can help bring your personal experience into a healthy perspective. I'd like to take tolerance a step further to appreciation. The more we practice this, the better our chances for cooperative survival.

Currently Standing strong with you are:
95 of your neighbors in SONOMA County :):
2142 fellow residents of CALIFORNIA.

THANKS!
-Jill




and now it is 90 from Sonoma County and 2121 from California.
Thanks for the referral. It is a daily journey to ask myself why I dismiss someone or find myself in judgement when my intention is to respect and find value. Old habits die hard, and yet this is such an important shift for self, for our community and the world. It feels good to be moving on the path in concert with other lovely humaniods. Laura

[MsTerry]

Most of these immigrants (95%) are staunch followers and supporters of Jesus Christ. In fact they have prayed to God for guidance and assistance to support their families. Their answer came in the form of a journey to 'El Norte'.
Since Christianity is such a strong force in their life, and Jesus himself was a lawbreaker, I think you would be better of eradicating Christianity if you want to fulfill your line of thinking. It would take away their motivation to come here.


Anti-Americanism is bigotry. Communism is bigotry against successful people and free people and private people. Just about anything a person is against can be construed as bigotry. I am definitely bigoted against illegal immigration and illegal immigrants. I am firmly against them and there's NOTHING WRONG with that.

[Valley Oak]

Astute observation.

If we apply the same principal in Ms Terry's observation to the political realm, a surprisingly significant number of once Mexican citizens who are now U.S. citizens, vote for the Republican Party and are ultra patriotic and right wing across the board; they are both fiscally and socially conservative. Although this is certainly not true of all or even most nationalized aliens of Mexican origin, it is highly unlikely that Schwarzneggar would have ever been elected if 100% of the Hispanic electorate had voted as a solid bloc for Bustamante or Davis back in the day.

Edward


Most of these immigrants (95%) are staunch followers and supporters of Jesus Christ. In fact they have prayed to God for guidance and assistance to support their families. Their answer came in the form of a journey to 'El Norte'.
Since Christianity is such a strong force in their life, and Jesus himself was a lawbreaker, I think you would be better of eradicating Christianity if you want to fulfill your line of thinking. It would take away their motivation to come here.

[Reportanddeport]

I am concerned about the lives and details of AMERICANS in AMERICA and of those immigrants who were decent enough to obey our laws. I see value in protecting the ground where my roots are planted. But I can't comprehend how throwing away nor making vulnerable that which is mine nor that which I share with others is in my best interest. I will not and can not carry the entire weight of the world. I have my own life to live and it is not enriched by boohooing for foreigners nor by picking the pockets of those who were more successful than me.


It's not ALL wrong but there is SOMETHING wrong with that.

You're missing the details of their life story, how they, like you, try to build a happy life, try to do something that makes them recognized, just like you.

[Reportanddeport]

I think that your habit of being persistently contrarian is merely to cover the fact that you don't understand many issues. Perhaps if you learned extensively about a particular subject, and stayed primarily on that subject, then you could speak authoritatively on something and not feel perpetually compelled to automatically disagree and/or to disagree in a nonsensical manner.

I do feel that though darkness can suck the light away, it is still less valuable and powerful than the light itself.


Most of these immigrants (95%) are staunch followers and supporters of Jesus Christ. In fact they have prayed to God for guidance and assistance to support their families. Their answer came in the form of a journey to 'El Norte'.
Since Christianity is such a strong force in their life, and Jesus himself was a lawbreaker, I think you would be better of eradicating Christianity if you want to fulfill your line of thinking. It would take away their motivation to come here.

[Zeno Swijtink]

I am concerned about the lives and details of AMERICANS in AMERICA and of those immigrants who were decent enough to obey our laws. I see value in protecting the ground where my roots are planted. But I can't comprehend how throwing away nor making vulnerable that which is mine nor that which I share with others is in my best interest. I will not and can not carry the entire weight of the world. I have my own life to live and it is not enriched by boohooing for foreigners nor by picking the pockets of those who were more successful than me.

It is likely that one of your forefathers came here illegally, or did not completely follow the law in other ways. Your wife's forefathers may have settled somewhere illegally, or the offspring of your offspring may marry into lineages of people you presently wish to report and deport.

Offspring of forefathers of the people you presently wish to eject were likely living in these lands you call your America and may have been killed in the battles that your forefathers fought to eject the forefathers of said people. Forefathers of yours may have fought on opposing sides of such battles.

It may be in your best interest to see the gray shades of everyone's life, including that of your own.

[Braggi]

... I will not and can not carry the entire weight of the world. ...

Aren't you glad you have all us helpful progressives to share the burden?

You can count on us!

-Jeff

[Reportanddeport]

My life began when I was born. I didn't pick the history of my ancestors, nor do I care what they did. Whether they obeyed all laws or broke all laws matters not all all to me because I am me.


It is likely that one of your forefathers came here illegally, or did not completely follow the law in other ways. Your wife's forefathers may have settled somewhere illegally, or the offspring of your offspring may marry into lineages of people you presently wish to report and deport.

Offspring of forefathers of the people you presently wish to eject were likely living in these lands you call your America and may have been killed in the battles that your forefathers fought to eject the forefathers of said people. Forefathers of yours may have fought on opposing sides of such battles.

It may be in your best interest to see the gray shades of everyone's life, including that of your own.

[Braggi]

...

I do feel that though darkness can suck the light away, it is still less valuable and powerful than the light itself.

A powerful statement.

I think that's the best post I've seen you make.

-Jeff

[MsTerry]

Yes, this is the most accurate description, that anyone has given of you!
I am happy to see that you do have insight in your self!:thumbsup:


I think that your habit of being persistently contrarian is merely to cover the fact that you don't understand many issues. Perhaps if you learned extensively about a particular subject, and stayed primarily on that subject, then you could speak authoritatively on something and not feel perpetually compelled to automatically disagree and/or to disagree in a nonsensical manner.

[Zeno Swijtink]

My life began when I was born. I didn't pick the history of my ancestors, nor do I care what they did. Whether they obeyed all laws or broke all laws matters not all all to me because I am me.

Sure, you are you.

But you were nurtured by surroundings not of you making, shaped by the deeds of your ancestors. Without that support your seed would have withered.

Not caring for the history of your ancestors is not caring for who you have become.

Not caring for the future of your children is rejecting the seeds in your own scrotum.

[Peace Seeker]

R&D and Ms Terry, your exchanges with each other seem more like a personal feud than a serious conversation. Your sarcasms don't come across to me as the kind of irony that clarifies truths. I'm not sure why you are doing this. I think it makes both of you look petty. And it doesn't represent either of your actual levels of intelligence - but at most a degree of verbal cleverness.

Ms Terry, when I read your posts to R&D I wonder if you are trying to punish R&D for having views you find objectionable; or if you are trying to discredit him with sarcastic attacks and ridicule, because you are worried that some people might be swayed by him.

I find many of R&D's views objectionable, and I worry that others could be swayed by some of what he posts. But I think the best way to address those concerns is by clearly, directly and respectfully stating my concerns to him and others, and explaining why I see them as serious problems.

As for him influencing others -- on this bulletin board, I don't think people are likely to emulate R&D's rage or adopt his beligerent hostility toward immigrants.

I do see some people voice inhumane and parochially limited reactions to human suffering, that sometimes coincides with some of R&D's views. But I suspect they developed those views and attitudes indedpendently of R&D, and that his posts aren't a pivotal factor in forming or hardening them. I think sarcastic attacks do lead people to harden their views, however.

R&D, when I read your posts I wonder whether you think that if you concede even a tiny point -- no matter how self-evident -- that this will betray causes and people you value, and imperil everything you are trying to protect. Because it seems to me that you make some statements out of defiance and combativeness, and to avoid letting anything pass.

Like claiming that you don't care about anyone or anything except yourself and your immediate family; or that you don't believe Americans have any moral obligation to respond to suffering elsewhere in the world; or that you see Americans as completely entitled to all the wealth we hog and hoard here, no matter how we got it, or how violently or dishonestly, or at whose expense. (At least that was how I interpreted what you posted.) You might actually believe all this, I suppose, but when I read it I suspect that you are deliberately stonewalling in order to win a public argument, not fully examiniing and sharing what you believe and think inwardly. I suppose you could actually hold all these views exactly the way you state them, but that seems improbable to me. For one thing you seem pretty intelligent, but some of the rhetoric you use is crude and simplistic. That strikes me as tactical and rhetorical, rather than fully candid.

Often when people bait and belittle each other online, the group as a whole gets drawn into an endless reactive exchange of mutual insults. I see that happening constantly on discussion boards and Listserves. This can provide short-term comic entertainment or stimulating and arousing blood sport, but in the longer view I think it perpetuates and deepens our problems, instead of reducing or curing them.

I think the stakes are pretty high in this case, because we are trying to problem solve and understand some very harmful social problems. I'd like to ask both of you to back off.

David

[MsTerry]

David,

It appears that you have appointed your self as the new "superior" being. In your previous post you used the word "superior" to fill in what you thought I was thinking.
Now again you are telling me what I am thinking (of course disguised diplomatically with the word 'I wonder") and what my motivation would be. When I asked you to clarify your post before, you ignored me
If you really want to be a Peace Seeker you could pull me aside privately and ASK ME what my motivation is.
Despite your good intentions, your post comes across as a self-righteous and judgmental lecture. But then again I don't know what your REAL intentions are.


R&D and Ms Terry, your exchanges with each other seem more like a personal feud than a serious conversation. Your sarcasms don't come across to me as the kind of irony that clarifies truths. I'm not sure why you are doing this. I think it makes both of you look petty. And it doesn't represent either of your actual levels of intelligence - but at most a degree of verbal cleverness.

Ms Terry, when I read your posts to R&D I wonder if you are trying to punish R&D for having views you find objectionable; or if you are trying to discredit him with sarcastic attacks and ridicule, because you are worried that some people might be swayed by him.


David

[handy]

Dear Handy,

You wrote:

Democracy deserves what it tolerates.

Tolerance is a function of perceived superiority.
Distasteful at best...

==============================

"I understand the reasoning of your statement."

---No, you don't.

"Here's how I see the reality of this question: "

--- Questions occur in conceptuality; reality is physical.

"There is a false form of tolerance, where people see themselves as superior to others, who they condescendingly "tolerate". "

--- This is precisely the meaning of tolerance. It is Not a "false form".

"True tolerance is respectful, appreciative coexistence with people who you perceive as dramatically different from yourself. I believe that's the meaning most people in our culture give to the word. Not superiority, or "barely tolerating" someone you secretly disrespect. "

---WRONG!!! Respectful, appreciative coexistence MEANS respectful, appreciative coexistence. Not tolerance.

Hint: Different words have Different Meanings.
That's why we use different words!

Attempting to assign approximate synonymity to distinctly different meanings WILL cause confusion and cripple your thinking process.

[Peace Seeker]

Dear Handy,

I don't agree with your analysis of the meaning and implications of the word "tolerance" -- though I think you are correct about its etiology and linguistic derivation. I think the word "tolerance" has valid utility, widespread in common discourse, simply to positively denote the antithesis of prejudice.

I think you expressing this concern: that by adopting the concept of tolerance, we trap ourselves into a kind of condescending or grudging attitude for things that we find objectionable, where we merely put up with them, while we continue to distance ourselves from them. I think you're correct that this can happen, and that we need to check ourselves fairly rigorously for this invidious and limiting attitude. I'm not convinced this error is an inevitable outcome of using the word "tolerance".

Another, different pitfall I see with tolerance, is it can be a rather easy and unproductive response. I can say, "I'll tolerate that" and then discontinue further thought about it, as though mere passive coexistence is all I owe to a difficult situation. I could use that false sense of having "given at the offrice" to dodge very compelling and critical problems. But I see that as a problem of conduct, not language.

You warned that assigning approximate synonimity could "cripple" my thinking process. I don't think that employing what I believe is a widely understood, common usage for the word "tolerance" creates ambiguity that disables my or others'mental understanding. I think that does happen with some terminology, but I don't believe it's true in this case.

But even though I remain skeptical about your critique of the word and concept of tolerance, I do want to identify better terminology when it is available. So if you have suggestions about a better term than tolerance, to positively denote the antithesis of prejudice, that information might contribute insight and clarity to this discussion about how to counteract and remedy prejudice. So please go for it.

David

[Braggi]

This seems like a bizarre thread to argue anything but I think common usage supports Peace Seeker's definition over Handy's.

This the #1 definition from Answers.com:
The capacity for or the practice of recognizing and respecting the beliefs or practices of others.

TheFreeDictionary.com :
1. The capacity for or the practice of recognizing and respecting the beliefs or practices of others.

mirriam-webster.com
1: capacity to endure pain or hardship : endurance, fortitude, stamina
2 a: sympathy or indulgence for beliefs or practices differing from or conflicting with one's own b: the act of allowing something : toleration

So, Handy, let Peace Seeker use his own definition. The experts agree. Besides, this is supposed to be a feel-good, patting ourselves on the back sort of process. You might suggest that such exercises are pointless, but some of us appreciate knowing there are others willing to take a few moments out of their busy days to make a positive statement.

Have a happy day.

-Jeff

[Braggi]

Once again, it's been nice hanging out on Waccobb, but I have to go do something socially conscious: play the latest version of Grand Theft Auto.

https://www.grandtheftchildhood.com/GTC/Home.html

https://www.amazon.com/Grand-Theft-Childhood-Surprising-Violent/dp/0743299515

-Jeff

[Reportanddeport]

Well, I have ignored most of her recent posts so it does not turn into a personal feud. But I was still trying to motivate her to get substantive on something. But don't worry about it. I can only TRY to make people understand me, but if it doesn't work out, then at least I tried.


R&D and Ms Terry, your exchanges with each other seem more like a personal feud than a serious conversation. Your sarcasms don't come across to me as the kind of irony that clarifies truths. I'm not sure why you are doing this. I think it makes both of you look petty. And it doesn't represent either of your actual levels of intelligence - but at most a degree of verbal cleverness.

Ms Terry, when I read your posts to R&D I wonder if you are trying to punish R&D for having views you find objectionable; or if you are trying to discredit him with sarcastic attacks and ridicule, because you are worried that some people might be swayed by him.

I find many of R&D's views objectionable, and I worry that others could be swayed by some of what he posts. But I think the best way to address those concerns is by clearly, directly and respectfully stating my concerns to him and others, and explaining why I see them as serious problems.

As for him influencing others -- on this bulletin board, I don't think people are likely to emulate R&D's rage or adopt his beligerent hostility toward immigrants.

I do see some people voice inhumane and parochially limited reactions to human suffering, that sometimes coincides with some of R&D's views. But I suspect they developed those views and attitudes indedpendently of R&D, and that his posts aren't a pivotal factor in forming or hardening them. I think sarcastic attacks do lead people to harden their views, however.

R&D, when I read your posts I wonder whether you think that if you concede even a tiny point -- no matter how self-evident -- that this will betray causes and people you value, and imperil everything you are trying to protect. Because it seems to me that you make some statements out of defiance and combativeness, and to avoid letting anything pass.

Like claiming that you don't care about anyone or anything except yourself and your immediate family; or that you don't believe Americans have any moral obligation to respond to suffering elsewhere in the world; or that you see Americans as completely entitled to all the wealth we hog and hoard here, no matter how we got it, or how violently or dishonestly, or at whose expense. (At least that was how I interpreted what you posted.) You might actually believe all this, I suppose, but when I read it I suspect that you are deliberately stonewalling in order to win a public argument, not fully examiniing and sharing what you believe and think inwardly. I suppose you could actually hold all these views exactly the way you state them, but that seems improbable to me. For one thing you seem pretty intelligent, but some of the rhetoric you use is crude and simplistic. That strikes me as tactical and rhetorical, rather than fully candid.

Often when people bait and belittle each other online, the group as a whole gets drawn into an endless reactive exchange of mutual insults. I see that happening constantly on discussion boards and Listserves. This can provide short-term comic entertainment or stimulating and arousing blood sport, but in the longer view I think it perpetuates and deepens our problems, instead of reducing or curing them.

I think the stakes are pretty high in this case, because we are trying to problem solve and understand some very harmful social problems. I'd like to ask both of you to back off.

David

[Reportanddeport]

OK, YOU worry about YOUR ancestors all you want. Worry yourself into a nervous breakdown for all I care.


Sure, you are you.

But you were nurtured by surroundings not of you making, shaped by the deeds of your ancestors. Without that support your seed would have withered.

Not caring for the history of your ancestors is not caring for who you have become.

Not caring for the future of your children is rejecting the seeds in your own scrotum.

[MsTerry]

This is interesting, because everything you post is personal.
It is always about you, you and you.
You don't care about your neighbors, ancestors or anybody but you.
I didn't hear about how your wife is feeling, just about how long it took you to get her in your hands.



Well, I have ignored most of her recent posts so it does not turn into a personal feud.

[Zeno Swijtink]

OK, YOU worry about YOUR ancestors all you want. Worry yourself into a nervous breakdown for all I care.

Why would you caring about people beyond your single self slip off into worry, let alone worrying yourself into a nervous breakdown?

Why do you need to see our land, AMERICA, as a knight in shining armor, of a superior morality? Note that some of your fellow citizens, who agree with that sentiment, argue at length that certain places, like Guantanamo,

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/65/Camp_x-ray_detainees.jpg/599px-Camp_x-ray_detainees.jpg

are NON-AMERICA places, where Unamerican crimes can be freely committed, even by AMERICANS.

All this waving with AMERICAN/NONAMERICAN only blurs our vision of genuinely universal issues.

[Reportanddeport]

You're worried about my corrupting influence when I talk about obeying the laws and supporting the U.S.A.?

Actually, I have just as much belligerent hostility for liars like YOU than I do for illegal aliens. The illegal aliens are here BECAUSE OF the treachery of people like YOU. The Leftist obsession with word play is part of the Leftist philosophy of victory via deceit. So when you run into OPENLY MILITANT people like myself, you can pretend that you're peaceful and non-violent while you play word games.

I am not interested in conceding for the sake of conceding. Nor am I opposed to conceding something if I think I am wrong.

Combat is NOT an end in itself but is a MEANS to an end.

And I NEVER said I don't care about anything other than myself, I said I am not responsible for the immigration status of my ancestors and that I don't care what they did.

You are NOT trying to solve problems, you have demonstrated your commitment to lying, to victory via deceit and disinformation.

You should not assume that everyone is as naive and gullible as you want them to be. Those you seek to play to can see the same things that I do.




I find many of R&D's views objectionable, and I worry that others could be swayed by some of what he posts. But I think the best way to address those concerns is by clearly, directly and respectfully stating my concerns to him and others, and explaining why I see them as serious problems.

As for him influencing others -- on this bulletin board, I don't think people are likely to emulate R&D's rage or adopt his beligerent hostility toward immigrants.

I do see some people voice inhumane and parochially limited reactions to human suffering, that sometimes coincides with some of R&D's views. But I suspect they developed those views and attitudes indedpendently of R&D, and that his posts aren't a pivotal factor in forming or hardening them. I think sarcastic attacks do lead people to harden their views, however.

R&D, when I read your posts I wonder whether you think that if you concede even a tiny point -- no matter how self-evident -- that this will betray causes and people you value, and imperil everything you are trying to protect. Because it seems to me that you make some statements out of defiance and combativeness, and to avoid letting anything pass.

Like claiming that you don't care about anyone or anything except yourself and your immediate family; or that you don't believe Americans have any moral obligation to respond to suffering elsewhere in the world; or that you see Americans as completely entitled to all the wealth we hog and hoard here, no matter how we got it, or how violently or dishonestly, or at whose expense. (At least that was how I interpreted what you posted.) You might actually believe all this, I suppose, but when I read it I suspect that you are deliberately stonewalling in order to win a public argument, not fully examiniing and sharing what you believe and think inwardly. I suppose you could actually hold all these views exactly the way you state them, but that seems improbable to me. For one thing you seem pretty intelligent, but some of the rhetoric you use is crude and simplistic. That strikes me as tactical and rhetorical, rather than fully candid.

Often when people bait and belittle each other online, the group as a whole gets drawn into an endless reactive exchange of mutual insults. I see that happening constantly on discussion boards and Listserves. This can provide short-term comic entertainment or stimulating and arousing blood sport, but in the longer view I think it perpetuates and deepens our problems, instead of reducing or curing them.

I think the stakes are pretty high in this case, because we are trying to problem solve and understand some very harmful social problems. I'd like to ask both of you to back off.

David

[Reportanddeport]

I care about no one but myself? Obviously you haven't visited my blog and seen all the forced sex your illegal aliens have been having with American kids and women.
https://reportanddeport.wordpress.com/2008/05/03/illegal-aliens-demand-amnestyillegal-aliens-take-turns-molesting-little-girl/
https://reportanddeport.wordpress.com/2008/04/30/deported-child-molester-sneaks-back-in-then-murders-black-cop-illegal-rapes-girl-then-calls-her-for-date/
https://reportanddeport.wordpress.com/2008/04/25/illegal-aliens-human-smugglers-and-deported-returning-child-molester-arrested-in-arizona/
https://reportanddeport.wordpress.com/2008/04/24/illegal-alien-sodomizes-boy-gets-50-years-in-prison/
https://reportanddeport.wordpress.com/2008/04/23/illegal-alien-arranges-sex-with-10yo-and-other-has-kiddie-porn-collection/
https://reportanddeport.wordpress.com/2008/04/21/in-an-absolut-world-44-yo-illegal-alien-rapes-15-yo-girl/
https://reportanddeport.wordpress.com/2008/04/20/in-an-absolut-world-illegal-aliens-stab-mother-to-death/
https://reportanddeport.wordpress.com/2008/04/19/in-an-absolut-world-illegal-alien-rapes-girl/
https://reportanddeport.wordpress.com/2008/04/12/illegal-alien-sentenced-to-8-years-for-amputating-womans-legs/
https://home.pon.net/jeffandmaria/usdoj/lili.jpg
https://reportanddeport.wordpress.com/2008/04/09/sick-twisted-girl-lies-about-hispanic-attackers/
https://reportanddeport.wordpress.com/2008/04/05/illegal-alien-beats-lodi-man-to-death/
https://reportanddeport.wordpress.com/2008/04/04/importing-200-pounds-of-crystal-meth-a-month-into-the-us-from-mexico/
https://reportanddeport.wordpress.com/2008/03/25/bush-fails-in-attempt-to-save-murderer-from-mexico/
https://home.pon.net/jeffandmaria/novato/rapeandmurder.png


Why would you caring about people beyond your single self slip off into worry, let alone worrying yourself into a nervous breakdown?

Why do you need to see our land, AMERICA, as a knight in shining armor, of a superior morality? Note that some of your fellow citizens, who agree with that sentiment, argue at length that certain places, like Guantanamo,

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/65/Camp_x-ray_detainees.jpg/599px-Camp_x-ray_detainees.jpg

are NON-AMERICA places, where Unamerican crimes can be freely committed, even by AMERICANS.

All this waving with AMERICAN/NONAMERICAN only blurs our vision of genuinely universal issues.

[Peace Seeker]

Request and Proposal

Dear friends,

We have just had a series of intense -- sometimes enraged -- exchanges on this thread.

I want to re-state what I would like the focus for this thread to be:

I want to see whether we can maintain a specific, intentionally focussed WaccoBB topical discussion thread on remedying prejudice, and whether we can minimize interpersonal quarrels there. I think that would be a valuable accompllishment.

To accomplish that, I request that people refrain from digressing onto unrelated topics, and refrain from arguing with each other about whether they are off-topic, and refrain from personal insults, flames and flame-backs.

I ask people to post suggestions and thoughts here about:
<LI class=list_spacer>How we can remedy prejudice.<LI class=list_spacer>How we can better comprehend prejudice.<LI class=list_spacer>Actions we or others have taken to remedy prejudice.
Insights about how prejudice arises in ourselves, and ways we can correct it.If I think someone is posting combative personal attacks or criticisms, I will ask them to stop.

If I think someone is re-directing this thread onto an extended digression, away from the subject of prejudice and its remedies, I will ask people to move that discussion to a new or different thread.



Stand Strong Against Hate Campaign


I specifically encourage people to sign onto the Southern Poverty Law Center's (SPLC) Web Page, mapping people in the U.S. who Stand Strong Against Hate.


Here's the procedure:



<LI class=list_spacer><LI class=list_spacer>Go to the campaign Web page: https://www.splcenter.org/center/petitions/standstrong/ (https://www.splcenter.org/center/petitions/standstrong/)<LI class=list_spacer>Enter your name, eMail address and Zip Code (this is kept confidential).
As people sign, a map of the US gets shaded - by county -- into deeper and deeper shades of green (by "density" of supporters). This green overlay is placed over a U.S. map that already has red dots for the Headquarters of known US hate groups (as identified by SPLC).
You will get an automated reply, updating the number of campaign supporters who've signed from Sonoma County, and from California. Please cut and paste this updated report to us, in a message to this thread.

Our first update counted 80 Sonoma County signers. Our latest update -- 5 days later -- counted 95.


=================

So as the first formal report on this thread, about an action we've taken to remedy prejudice:


Seven days ago I posted information to this thread about SPLC's Stand Strong Against Hate campaign, and also eMailed the same information directly to quite a few interfaith and human rights contacts in Sonoma County. The result so far:

The number of Sonoma County signers increased by about 20% within five days, from 80 to 95. (Our most recent update).


It's not certain whether all or only some of those 15 people signed on because of this initiative. I suspect that's true for most of them. I know people forwarded the information on - both within Sonoma County and elsewhere in the US, including posting to several other Listserves.

I also encourage anyone reading this message to forward information widely, about SPLC's Stand Strong Against Hate campaign.



David Hoffman
May 6, 2008

[handy]

This seems like a bizarre thread to argue anything but I think common usage supports Peace Seeker's definition over Handy's.

This the #1 definition from Answers.com:
The capacity for or the practice of recognizing and respecting the beliefs or practices of others.

TheFreeDictionary.com :
1. The capacity for or the practice of recognizing and respecting the beliefs or practices of others.

mirriam-webster.com
1: capacity to endure pain or hardship : endurance, fortitude, stamina
2 a: sympathy or indulgence for beliefs or practices differing from or conflicting with one's own b: the act of allowing something : toleration

So, Handy, let Peace Seeker use his own definition. The experts agree. Besides, this is supposed to be a feel-good, patting ourselves on the back sort of process. You might suggest that such exercises are pointless, but some of us appreciate knowing there are others willing to take a few moments out of their busy days to make a positive statement.

Have a happy day.

-Jeff

Before dictionaries became politically correct, m-w's #2 definition was primary. With the wonders of the Web, we can change/destroy meanings almost overnight, and then point to "experts" who "agree". Probably the same quality of experts who brought us Weapons of Mass Destruction and Human caused Global Warming.

Yah, let everybody use "their own" definitions. So much for each new word being a specific tool for expressing a precise nuance of experience. Let them mean whatever you want, and you can play word games forever. The dumbing down continues, the quality of american education continues to fall, and the current crop doesn't (cannot) even see what's been lost. (How many current grade school teachers can diagram a complex sentence? Or teach a 5th grader the basics of grammatical structure?)

I'm going to go read Ron Paul's new book, "The Revolution: A Manifesto".
He has a certain respect for words that I find refreshing.

[babaruss]

[quote)
Well, I have ignored most of her recent posts so it does not turn into a personal feud. But I was still trying to motivate her to get substantive on something. But don't worry about it. I can only TRY to make people understand me, but if it doesn't work out, then at least I tried.[/quote]


Wasn't it Francis of Assisi who said " It is better to understand than to be understood."
My daily struggle is to stop putting barriers between myself, and others (by insisting that they see things my way).
For years it never occurred to me that the other person's point of view, albeit completely contrary to my own, is every bit as worthy as my own.
When I am able to see where the other person is coming from, and stop allowing myself to be threatened by it, true brotherhood (communication ?) seems possible.
Wish I practised this way of thinking a bit more honestly, but hey, progress is better than being stuck. I'm o.k. with not being as stuck as I have been.
Russ

[Lenny]

My life began when I was born. I didn't pick the history of my ancestors, nor do I care what they did. Whether they obeyed all laws or broke all laws matters not all all to me because I am me.

Rather limited, no?

[Peace Seeker]

Babaruss wrote:

For years it never occurred to me that the other person's point of view, albeit completely contrary to my own, is every bit as worthy as my own.
When I am able to see where the other person is coming from, and stop allowing myself to be threatened by it, true brotherhood (communication ?) seems possible.

Wish I practised this way of thinking a bit more honestly, but hey, progress is better than being stuck. I'm o.k. with not being as stuck as I have been.
Russ[/quote]

=======================

Hi Russ,

I really value what you bring to this discussion. I see similar compassion in others on this thread to, and want to acknowledge and commend it.

I definitely agree that we need to pursue deep, perceptive heart appreciation of those we perceive as adversaries or enemies, in order to accomplish peace which will last, and which will work for people who hold seemingly "incompatible" convictions and values. I do believe that form of prayerful reflection will help me recognize prejudices in myself that I tend to mistakenly think of as "righteous judgments" or "accurate" perceptions of others.


Still, I have a question for you:

How can we practice this aproach, while stell recognizing serious cases of bigotry, prejudicial incitement etc., and challenge them, or try to remedy them? How do we open our hearts to the humanity of our perceived nemesis -- when the problem we see is hateful, dangerous prejudice or incitement? I feel led to act, intervene or otherwise seek a remedy -- not to simply retreat into passive, benevolent reflection and contemplation.

How do you handle this dilemma?

David

[Lenny]

Why would you caring about people beyond your single self slip off into worry, let alone worrying yourself into a nervous breakdown? Why do you need to see our land, AMERICA, as a knight in shining armor, of a superior morality? Note that some of your fellow citizens, who agree with that sentiment, argue at length that certain places, like Guantanamo, are NON-AMERICA places, where Unamerican crimes can be freely committed, even by AMERICANS. All this waving with AMERICAN/NONAMERICAN only blurs our vision of genuinely universal issues.

Agree. The genuinely universal issues like those guys in orange trying to kill US in every way possible! For being not-their-religion all the time to their standards, homosexual, women who do not want cliterectomies or wish to drive cars, or go out alone, or vote, child labor laws, taxing survivors. Little things that would violate true universal issues that have been determined by our Western ways. We agree, FINALLY

[Lenny]

I can only successfully fight bigotry within myself.
David Hoffman

I grew up in a neighborhood where you can fight bigotry outside yourself, daily. Probably could find one around here easily, homes. THEN you can tell me about the above in the truest sense of the word.
Point: you ain't seen nothing yet. You are probably fighting the bigotry your family gave to you. Truly, good for you. It just gets a little thick when spread as such.




In my case I am an Evangelical Christian, and a democratic, nonviolent, non-Machiavellian Marxist.
David Hoffman

I look forward to seeing how you "do" the above. As it is a basic contradiction to be a Christian AND a Marxist. Matter of fact, it is dang near impossible to be a Marxist and not Machiavellian. And I like the way you put the "NON" next to Machiavelli's name. You are an admitted contradiction in terms, sir, and I await your future posts. Please, though, for the sake of brevity, be succinct in your missives. They do get a bit wordy. :2cents:

PS: YIPPEE. I figured out how to put those cool little boxes around "stuff". Old dog:tricks:new

[Reportanddeport]

I don't know a lot about Francis of Assisi. I hadn't given him or her much thought.
Maybe you can condense your main point, as this is nebulous to me.


[quote)
Well, I have ignored most of her recent posts so it does not turn into a personal feud. But I was still trying to motivate her to get substantive on something. But don't worry about it. I can only TRY to make people understand me, but if it doesn't work out, then at least I tried.


Wasn't it Francis of Assisi who said " It is better to understand than to be understood."
My daily struggle is to stop putting barriers between myself, and others (by insisting that they see things my way).
For years it never occurred to me that the other person's point of view, albeit completely contrary to my own, is every bit as worthy as my own.
When I am able to see where the other person is coming from, and stop allowing myself to be threatened by it, true brotherhood (communication ?) seems possible.
Wish I practised this way of thinking a bit more honestly, but hey, progress is better than being stuck. I'm o.k. with not being as stuck as I have been.
Russ[/quote]

[handy]

[QUOTE=Peace Seeker;57559]

Dear friends,

We have just had--- thread.

I want to re-state
I would like the focus for this thread to be:

[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]I want to see --- remedying prejudice
<SNIP>
To accomplish that, I request that people ---

<SNIP>

I ask people to post suggestions and thoughts here about:
<SNIP>
[LIST]<LI class=list_spacer>How we can remedy prejudice.<LI class=list_spacer>How we can better comprehend prejudice.<LI class=list_spacer>Actions we or others have taken to remedy prejudice.
Insights about how p<SNIP>
]If I think someone is posti

<SNIP>
If I think someone is re-directing, I will ask people
<SNIP>



Stand Strong A Campaign

<SNIP>
I specifically encourage p

[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]Here's the procedure:
<SNIP>

good grief!
snip slash cut chop etc !!
Jesusfuckenyoyostripesyoutakeyourselfwaayytooseriouslygiveitabreak!

When you get tired of "seeking" peace and pay attention, you'll find that peace has been right here, staring you right between the ears, patiently, for just about ever. There's just too much self righteous, ego tripping busyness of telling others what to do and how to behave better (like you) getting in the way. Sure, go join a petition if it makes you feel better...

Other than that, all seriousness aside... some moments of enlightenment occur when we just manage to

[babaruss]

[quote=Reportanddeport;57609]I don't know a lot about Francis of Assisi. I hadn't given him or her much thought.
Maybe you can condense your main point, as this is nebulous to me.


Sure...I'm willing to try.
Without bothering to go on about who Francis of Assisi was, I'll try to make a my thought clearer.
I have found (this is for myself only) that the more I was willing to get to know people who thought differently from me, the more I discovered what we had in common too.
It became clear to me that it was in no ones interest to devalue someone just because they held differing views.
It became more important to me to become open to opposing ideas rather than shutting that person out.
After all we are all human beings who are struggling through this thing called life together.
I began to ask myself 'how can someone who is for the most part the same as me (human) be cause for anger (just because that person expressed a view I don't share.).'
A great teaching tool has been my 5 children

One is an Evangelical Christian.
One is a convert to Islam.
Another is Agnostic.
Yet another is an avowed Athiest.
Last one prefers drugs and alcohol.

I found myself being conflicted about my children's various chosen belief systems, especially if we happen to all be under the same roof for a get together.
The only way out of stress and unhappiness for me was remind myself I love them love them And to accept that their choices are none of my business.
We sometimes have a few rough moments when one, or the other child, (adults really) becomes a bit zealous about their particular beliefs.
I am learning to not enter into the fray nor take sides.
I am now just watching to see how such comings together unfold.
Usually they sort it out and find something better to occupy their minds...sometimes though there are hard feelings. That too they have to deal with and sort out.
I've probably ran on a bit too much here.
I hope this gives you a better idea of what the idea I wanted to convey

Russ

[Valley Oak]

I'm itching to know which of those five is your first born?

I'm going to guess that he/she is either the agnostic or the atheist.

Edward




Sure...I'm willing to try.
Without bothering to go on about who Francis of Assisi was, I'll try to make a my thought clearer.
I have found (this is for myself only) that the more I was willing to get to know people who thought differently from me, the more I discovered what we had in common too.
It became clear to me that it was in no ones interest to devalue someone just because they held differing views.
It became more important to me to become open to opposing ideas rather than shutting that person out.
After all we are all human beings who are struggling through this thing called life together.
I began to ask myself 'how can someone who is for the most part the same as me (human) be cause for anger (just because that person expressed a view I don't share.).'
A great teaching tool has been my 5 children

One is an Evangelical Christian.
One is a convert to Islam.
Another is Agnostic.
Yet another is an avowed Athiest.
Last one prefers drugs and alcohol.

I found myself being conflicted about my children's various chosen belief systems, especially if we happen to all be under the same roof for a get together.
The only way out of stress and unhappiness for me was remind myself I love them love them And to accept that their choices are none of my business.
We sometimes have a few rough moments when one, or the other child, (adults really) becomes a bit zealous about their particular beliefs.
I am learning to not enter into the fray nor take sides.
I am now just watching to see how such comings together unfold.
Usually they sort it out and find something better to occupy their minds...sometimes though there are hard feelings. That too they have to deal with and sort out.
I've probably ran on a bit too much here.
I hope this gives you a better idea of what the idea I wanted to convey

Russ

[Reportanddeport]

It seems like that in your situation that you have to subordinate politics and religion to your desire to keep a relationship with your kids, which is understandable.

I said yesterday in this or another thread that what goes on in people's minds does not matter to me, but that when they turn those thoughts into actions that hurt others is when they become scum to me and I guess an enemy.

The world is ever-changing, so we can't know everything, and then we develop attitudes based on what we know or think. And then we act accordingly. So different beliefs lead to conflicts some times.

I guess you feel you HAVE to accept the differences between your kids. But of course not everyone in the world has to nor will accept differences that lead to or cause someone's suffering. And then there will be conflict.

Understanding someone else's point of view is some times, but not always, helpful. I'm not interested in learning the points of view of the throat slitters nor of the child molesters nor of the globalist elite.


[quote=Reportanddeport;57609]I don't know a lot about Francis of Assisi. I hadn't given him or her much thought.
Maybe you can condense your main point, as this is nebulous to me.


Sure...I'm willing to try.
Without bothering to go on about who Francis of Assisi was, I'll try to make a my thought clearer.
I have found (this is for myself only) that the more I was willing to get to know people who thought differently from me, the more I discovered what we had in common too.
It became clear to me that it was in no ones interest to devalue someone just because they held differing views.
It became more important to me to become open to opposing ideas rather than shutting that person out.
After all we are all human beings who are struggling through this thing called life together.
I began to ask myself 'how can someone who is for the most part the same as me (human) be cause for anger (just because that person expressed a view I don't share.).'
A great teaching tool has been my 5 children

One is an Evangelical Christian.
One is a convert to Islam.
Another is Agnostic.
Yet another is an avowed Athiest.
Last one prefers drugs and alcohol.

I found myself being conflicted about my children's various chosen belief systems, especially if we happen to all be under the same roof for a get together.
The only way out of stress and unhappiness for me was remind myself I love them love them And to accept that their choices are none of my business.
We sometimes have a few rough moments when one, or the other child, (adults really) becomes a bit zealous about their particular beliefs.
I am learning to not enter into the fray nor take sides.
I am now just watching to see how such comings together unfold.
Usually they sort it out and find something better to occupy their minds...sometimes though there are hard feelings. That too they have to deal with and sort out.
I've probably ran on a bit too much here.
I hope this gives you a better idea of what the idea I wanted to convey

Russ

[babaruss]

I'm itching to know which of those five is your first born?

I'm going to guess that he/she is either the agnostic or the atheist.

Edward

Your guess is quite right Edward....She is an Athiest.
Next one (Son) is an Agnostic.
Following one (daughter Evangelical Christian).
Next one (son) addict/alcoholic raging at the world.
Last child (daughter converted to Islam.
Russ

[babaruss]

[quote=Reportanddeport;57638]It seems like that in your situation that you have to subordinate politics and religion to your desire to keep a relationship with your kids, which is understandable.=quote}

In truth I choose to put aside problems of religion and politics to further family harmony. I would have a relationship with my kids regardless of whether we all got along waging ego centered battles over belief systems etc. or not.

{quote=I said yesterday in this or another thread that what goes on in people's minds does not matter to me, but that when they turn those thoughts into actions that hurt others is when they become scum to me and I guess an enemy.=quote}.

This sounds to me you will be forever finding 'scum' and enemies rather than finding solutions to behavior which damages others.
In my long and less than perfect life I have made many poor decisions which harmed others.
In your eyes, my failings would make me scum and therefore
your enemy.
Perhaps this is a bit short sighted, considering that you have no actual insight into cause and effect nor understanding of how long and difficult it was to acknowledge my errors and make appropriate correction in my thinking and acting.
I am more inclined toward understanding than I am at condemning, mainly because blanket condemnation shuts the door on the possiblity of change.
Acceptance and understanding can lead to the meaningful exchange of information and ideas which may bring about a desired change in person whose life is socially unacceptable.

{quote+The world is ever-changing, so we can't know everything, and then we develop attitudes based on what we know or think. And then we act accordingly. So different beliefs lead to conflicts some times.=]

I have absolutely no problem accepting that truth

[quote=I guess you feel you HAVE to accept the differences between your kids. But of course not everyone in the world has to nor will accept differences that lead to or cause someone's suffering. And then there will be conflict.=]

Again I don't have to do anything...I'm a free agent here.
I choose to do what to me makes the most sense and promotes the most harmony. And less you think me a complete phony..I fail more often than not
As to the rest of your statement you are again correct.
All the more reason to try where you can and let be the rest be.
For me... past anger, and frustration consumed me. My angry and conflicted responses to tough life situations caused me to suffer.
The world (I finally figured out) is fraught with conflicts, selfish and ugly behavior etc. There is nothing I can do about most of it.
The very most I can do is spot my own deficiencies and correct them as best I am able. Getting caught up emotionally over than which I can't alter in the slightest degree is a waste of my precious energy.
This of course does not mean that I should not align myself with causes which support my beliefs for a harmonious world. It just means I need lighten up on the emotionally charged way I respond to things which I am offended by.

{quote= understanding someone else's point of view is some times, but not always, helpful. I'm not interested in learning the points of view of the throat slitters nor of the child molesters nor of the globalist elite.=}

I respect your right to choose to not know these peoples points of view.
I on the other hand prefer to know cause and effect. More to learn what was the reasoning for this person to do whatever unacceptable thing it was that person did. "know thine enemy" and all that stuff.
I'm fighting an urge to get into the gigo aspect of behavioral learning and acting out of what has been learned ..say as a small child.
Think I'll spare your eyes further strain and leave things at this.
Thank you for allowing me learn a little more about how you view the world around you
Russ

[Braggi]

Once again, it's been nice hanging out on Waccobb, but I have to go do something socially conscious: play the latest version of Grand Theft Auto.

https://www.grandtheftchildhood.com/GTC/Home.html

https://www.amazon.com/Grand-Theft-Childhood-Surprising-Violent/dp/0743299515

OK, I have to cop to being dishonest in this post. I've never played any version of GTA. I did hope to get a few folks to follow those links to a book about the effects that violent video games have on kids who play them.

Hint: It's probably not what you think.

-Jeff

[Braggi]

My life began when I was born. I didn't pick the history of my ancestors, nor do I care what they did. Whether they obeyed all laws or broke all laws matters not all all to me because I am me.


You know, that's funny coming from you R&D. Most of our lives began at conception. I guess you were dead until you were born. :wink:

-Jeff

[babaruss]

[quote=How can we practice this aproach, while stell recognizing serious cases of bigotry, prejudicial incitement etc., and challenge them, or try to remedy them?=]

When I discovered that much of my beliefs were passed on via family and other enviornmental conditions, it came to me that nothing I believe is truly etched in stone. And is therefore subject to change. What made that discovery so valuable was my learning that garbage in equals garbage out.
What could probably be called 'normal' and 'appropriate' belief systems for my parents and grandparents ( via gigo) were becoming inappropriate and abnormal for my learning experience away from home.
Because of that so called personal discovery, I became certain that many other people were in patterns limited to specific input/experiences, and therefore not at all to be thought unkindly of.
It took me many years to rid myself of the coarser of my bigoted thoughts and 'beliefs'. Knowing this, I became more willing to accept that others may also have a period of experiencing differing ideas and views before making similar discoveries of their own.
In other words...in my world, my life is for learning, and it would seem that
time is given me to make that learning possible.
I believe it was Paul who said "We are transformed by the constant renewing of our minds, and daily dying."
'Daily dying' to me is having the courage to admit I was wrong in my thinking, and acting, and then learn to let go of that stuff which does not fit with my new discoveries.
When I began seeing my fellow human beings as in the same boat I was in only at a different level of experience, and understanding than mine, it became easier to let go of my disapproval of them, and to begin accepting them as equals. They are...whether we wish to believe that or not !!
I believe the carpenter who was the founder of your Christian belief taught (or perhaps it was his brother James) "what good is it to love only those who love us".
A system of belief based on such things forgiveness, love, and acceptance,
makes it difficult to shut people who think differently than I do.



[quote=]How do we open our hearts to the humanity of our perceived nemesis -- when the problem we see is hateful, dangerous prejudice or incitement? I feel led to act, intervene or otherwise seek a remedy -- not to simply retreat into passive, benevolent reflection and contemplation.=].

Once again I go back to the carpenter.
I think he said something like "behold, I make all things new"...somewhere in that statement he also said 'I give you but two commandments'....Love God, and love your neighbor as yourself'.
I can't do either if I am constantly trying to force upon others my belief
or my understanding regardless of how frightened their actions, and points of view make me feel.
Fear becomes the enemy of love...love may only mean acceptance of the other guys right to be here and discover for him/her self what life means.

{ quote= ] How do you handle this dilemma? =]

I have on occasion laid my life on the line for what I thought was the right thing.
I'm not much inclined to have that sort of thing happening anymore.

Fire as a means of change was what I thought necessary when young.
Today I think light is a better method.
Light may best be shown by my own changing behavior rather than me setting out to change the world.
In other words..if I do a good job of transforming myself others may notice and ask about it.
If not it is best to keep my mouth shut.

Once again all that I have written is what I do, have done, or am trying to do
and none of it may apply to how you percive your part in life.

The earth evolves...we evolve...consider the time it took for the earth to come into being.
Consider how long it took for man to crawl up out of the primordial ooze and do the things we do today.
We have many more generations to follow...I do not expect we will overcome a planet full of misunderstanding and fear in our life time.
I do expect me to do as much as I can to evolve myself in my life time.
This I believe to be my primary responsibility...and to take myself off of the hook of self condemnation...I remind myself learning is a no fault, no blame situation.

Russ

[Reportanddeport]

YES INDEED, there will ALWAYS be scum in this world that needs to be dealt with, and no internet philosophers will ever change that. The world is full of scum like Al Qaeda and illegal aliens.

There is NO "solution" for scum, other than to prosecute and/or kill them. Scumminess is an inevitable part of the human condition. You put one scumbag down, and more will pop up. I didn't ASK for that and I don't WANT it that way, but still it exists.

You may be scum, I don't know. And of course I have done scummy things.

You're NEVER going to be able to understand the minds of all people and understand their reasoning and thought processes and get an adequate and acceptable explanation for their behaviour. Not EVERYTHING can be understood, nor is worth understanding.

And NO ONE will EVER have a perfect plan for running their own minds. There's NO perfect philosophy.


[quote=Reportanddeport;57638]It seems like that in your situation that you have to subordinate politics and religion to your desire to keep a relationship with your kids, which is understandable.=quote}

In truth I choose to put aside problems of religion and politics to further family harmony. I would have a relationship with my kids regardless of whether we all got along waging ego centered battles over belief systems etc. or not.

{quote=I said yesterday in this or another thread that what goes on in people's minds does not matter to me, but that when they turn those thoughts into actions that hurt others is when they become scum to me and I guess an enemy.=quote}.

This sounds to me you will be forever finding 'scum' and enemies rather than finding solutions to behavior which damages others.
In my long and less than perfect life I have made many poor decisions which harmed others.
In your eyes, my failings would make me scum and therefore
your enemy.
Perhaps this is a bit short sighted, considering that you have no actual insight into cause and effect nor understanding of how long and difficult it was to acknowledge my errors and make appropriate correction in my thinking and acting.
I am more inclined toward understanding than I am at condemning, mainly because blanket condemnation shuts the door on the possiblity of change.
Acceptance and understanding can lead to the meaningful exchange of information and ideas which may bring about a desired change in person whose life is socially unacceptable.

{quote+The world is ever-changing, so we can't know everything, and then we develop attitudes based on what we know or think. And then we act accordingly. So different beliefs lead to conflicts some times.=]

I have absolutely no problem accepting that truth

[quote=I guess you feel you HAVE to accept the differences between your kids. But of course not everyone in the world has to nor will accept differences that lead to or cause someone's suffering. And then there will be conflict.=]

Again I don't have to do anything...I'm a free agent here.
I choose to do what to me makes the most sense and promotes the most harmony. And less you think me a complete phony..I fail more often than not
As to the rest of your statement you are again correct.
All the more reason to try where you can and let be the rest be.
For me... past anger, and frustration consumed me. My angry and conflicted responses to tough life situations caused me to suffer.
The world (I finally figured out) is fraught with conflicts, selfish and ugly behavior etc. There is nothing I can do about most of it.
The very most I can do is spot my own deficiencies and correct them as best I am able. Getting caught up emotionally over than which I can't alter in the slightest degree is a waste of my precious energy.
This of course does not mean that I should not align myself with causes which support my beliefs for a harmonious world. It just means I need lighten up on the emotionally charged way I respond to things which I am offended by.

{quote= understanding someone else's point of view is some times, but not always, helpful. I'm not interested in learning the points of view of the throat slitters nor of the child molesters nor of the globalist elite.=}

I respect your right to choose to not know these peoples points of view.
I on the other hand prefer to know cause and effect. More to learn what was the reasoning for this person to do whatever unacceptable thing it was that person did. "know thine enemy" and all that stuff.
I'm fighting an urge to get into the gigo aspect of behavioral learning and acting out of what has been learned ..say as a small child.
Think I'll spare your eyes further strain and leave things at this.
Thank you for allowing me learn a little more about how you view the world around you
Russ

[Reportanddeport]

That's dumb and you know it. I hope you're not going to turn into that annoying contrarian who also uses this forum.


You know, that's funny coming from you R&D. Most of our lives began at conception. I guess you were dead until you were born. :wink:

-Jeff

[Peace Seeker]

Hello there Handy,

I'm trying to do something about prejudice.

I don't think your posts will help that.

I wrote a long post that seemed really clever, but then I decided it would just get us into a lot of unproductive carping about each others' attitudes, motives etc. I decided to stick with working on prejudice issues.

Your post is insulting. I don't want to insult you.

Maybe a better course would be for you to find someone who is doing something you consider constructive and help them.

[Valley Oak]

Russ, this is fascinating.

I a couple of questions and I hope they are not intrusive and please don't answer them if you don't want to.

What was your personal view on religion while you were raising your kids?
Has that view changed? Or what is it now?

Scientific studies (a good quality research effort done the right way, using the scientific method) have demonstrated that the majority of first borns have better, happier, and more successful lives, even if they are less intelligent than their younger siblings.

Using my own interpretation, the typical first born enjoys being able to choose the best things in life, such as a more efficient outlook on religion, which is also the case of your second born as well. I am definitely mixing in my own bias here so at this point objectivity in my post is low. I am an atheist, although I have courted agnosticism. The interesting thing is that I am a second born. My older and only brother doesn't care for religion either but does not bother to label himself atheist or agnostic, although I don't know for sure where he is at these days.

My second guess and my fear would have been that your eldest was the fundamentalist. This would have indicated that she caved in to the dominant, mainstream culture. But she didn't, which is consistent with the benefits of being a first born.

Thank you for sharing,

Edward



Your guess is quite right Edward....She is an Athiest.
Next one (Son) is an Agnostic.
Following one (daughter Evangelical Christian).
Next one (son) addict/alcoholic raging at the world.
Last child (daughter converted to Islam.
Russ

[Peace Seeker]

This news report illustrates how people might get along, if we try.

Dwight Eisenhower once said, "Some day, when the people of the World want peace bad enough, maybe their governments will have to get out of the way and let them have it."


David



Hindus in Village Had No Temple,


So Muslims Built One


<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>



By Muzamil Jaleel*
Kashmir Live News Bureau<o:p></o:p>
July 10, 2003<o:p></o:p>
(https://www.expressindia.com/kashmir/index.php)
<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Full article on line at: https://www.expressindia.com/kashmir/full_story.php?content_id=27323
<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Excerpt:
<o:p></o:p>

Ichhigam, Budgam [(Kashmir, India)]: Deep in the Kashmir Valley and hundreds of miles from Ayodhya**, little Ichhigam's beeping a big message: you don't need the mandir‑masjid players** to keep your faith intact. People do it on their own, and very well at that.
<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Check with 60‑year‑old Brij Nath Bhat and 70‑year‑old Rupawati. They will tell you how they rang the bells today at the newly‑constructed Sharika Bhagwati temple in this village, 30 km from Srinagar.
<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
From the nearby mosque, they could hear the [call to prayer]. It were as if the Muslims had joined them in their prayers. Because it was they who had constructed the temple, even donated money and parted with land and trees.
<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Nine hundred Muslim families built this shrine for just eight Hindu families living in this village. And they did this just metres away from their own mosque, Khwaja Sabhun Aastan, on the banks of a stream that flows out of a sacred spring.
<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
Village elder Haji Hakeem Ghulam Mohammad, who heads the local [Muslim village council], was the moving spirit behind this. ''They wanted to construct a temple. They told us about it and we were more than willing to help our neighbours,'' he says. '' We have lived together for generations here and there was never any distance. Even the turmoil did not harm this bond.''
<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>

[ … ]

<o:p></o:p>
‘‘Today was our first day of prayers at this temple. It has been possible only because of our Muslim neighbours. For us, everything has always been normal,’’ says Bhat, who spearheaded the construction work.

<o:p></o:p>
‘‘They have always been helpful. When things went wrong and scores of Kashmiri [Hindus] left, the Muslims encouraged us to stay back. They stopped us, helped us when we felt scared, took care of our agricultural lands and orchards. They have always been there for us.’’

<o:p></o:p>

[ … ]

<o:p></o:p>
Abdul Gani Sheikh, [a] young [Muslim], believes politics is the source of all Hindu-Muslim strife. ‘‘I am sure common people are all alike. They want to live as we do here. But politicians foment trouble by dividing them on the basis of religion,’’ he says.


<o:p></o:p>
<o:p>
* Muzamil Jaleel is a Kashmiri journalist who writes prolifically on communal relations in the Kashmir valley. You can retrieve an extensive archive of Jaleel’s columns by Googling: site:www.expressindia.com (https://www.expressindia.com) "Muzamil Jaleel"
<o:p></o:p>
</o:p>
** “Avodhya” and “mandir-masjid players” -- These are references to a tragic situation well known throughout India. The writer is contrasting the Muslim-Hindu good will he describes in the current story with riots which have flared between Hindus and Muslims, over the contested “mandir-masjid” religious site near the Indian village of Avodhya:
<o:p></o:p>


"The dispute is over a plot of land which Hindus believe is the[/FONT]
[FONT='Georgia','serif']birthplace of the Hindu deity Ram. Hence the name Ram Janmabhoomi (or Ram's place of birth). A temple that stood on this site was destroyed by Muslim invaders, who then built a mosque there. In December 1992, Hindu extremists, led by the Vishwa Hindu Parishad (VHP - World Hindu Forum) tore down the 16th century mosque. While the dispute over the site has existed for centuries, it is only over the past decade that it has assumed immense significance in India's politics.

“The VHP, a constituent of the Sangh Parivar - a family of Hindu extremist parties and organizations - of which ruling Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) is a part, is in favor of a temple being built at the site and routinely initiates agitations and campaigns to push for the construction of a temple. The Ayodhya dispute has set off bloody riots across the country.”

-- From “Dalai Lama treads where others fear to go” (news article reporting Dalai Lama’s offer to mediate the Avodhya temple dispute – [I]Asia Times, and World Tibet Network News, January 24, 2004 -- https://www.tibet.ca/en/newsroom/wtn/archive/old?y=2004&m=1&p=24_2 (https://www.tibet.ca/en/newsroom/wtn/archive/old?y=2004&m=1&p=24_2)

[Peace Seeker]

Edward,

You make alot of valuable points, but this statement was overbroad and stereotyping:

"My fear would have been that your eldest was the fundamentalist. This would have indicated that she caved in to the dominant, mainstream culture."

Peoples' spiritual convictions come from a huge variety of motives and experiences -- some private and intimate, some profoundly ethical and humane, and others more materialistic or socially shallow.

"Fundamentalist Christian" is a phrase many skeptics use pejoratively and very loosely to label anyone who follows a traditional, Gospel-grounded, devotional life. Stereotypes this phrase evokes include ignorance, intellectual inferiority, superstition, dogmatism and intolerance. One reason this stereotype works is that many notorious, self-proclaimed "Fundamentalist" demagogues exhibit those faults.

But if you're broke and hungry, there are lots of devout fundamentalist Christians who will give you help and sympathy. Some throw in an earful of pious talk, and some don't. Their motives can range from deep lovingkindness, to covert proselytization, to straightforward scriptural obedience ("The Bible told me to love my neighbor, so I'm going to do it." -- I can think of plenty worse kinds of deference to scriptural authority.)

The civil rights movement's rank and file and core leadership included tens of thousands of Baptist and Holiness Christian believers and many Fundamentalist congregations. It would be very inaccurate to describe them as "caving in to the dominant, mainstream culture". (They were joined by other thousands of Jews, Catholics, Communists, secular humanists and others.)

Any religion can bring out the worst in people or the best, including Fundamentalist Christianity. Or atheism (think about Stalin and Pol Pot.)

German and Italian fascists both fancied their movements to be "modernizing" programs that freed them from the shackles of Christian self-sacrificing moralism. Core fascist ideology is either explicitly atheist, or transfers divine authority to a human maximum leader.

CIA supported counter-revolutionary death squad recruiters in Central America used posters describing themelves as "Soldiers for Christ".) It always helps to have God on your side when you want to commit mass murder. But if you don't believe in God, Marxist proletarian awakening and destiny, or the survival of your race or tribe are just as effective. In fact most supposed "religious" violence on the planet is more tribal and communalist than "religious". Alot of thugs nail religious and utopian symbols onto their bloody clubs, and recite mantras of "purity" to focus their mercilessness.

In Turkey it was the secularizing, "modernizing" regime of Ataturk that planned and directed the Armenian genocide. They also had "modernity squads" who would pull into a village with armed backup, round up anyone wearing "backward" head gear (fezzes or headscarves), and throw them into prison. Sometimes for years. A lot of traditional, theologically conservative Muslim religious leaders opposed these abuses. (This wasn't a simple situation. Ataturk also exploited Muslim religious prejudice against Armenians -- who were Christian -- to incite pogroms and motivate many his killing squads. I'm sure plenty of English and French anti-Turkish warmongers, and supporters pf French and British Middle East colonialism invoked the name of Christ during the same period.

David

[MsTerry]

Your post is insulting. I don't want to insult you.
.
This is a hypocritical contradiction.
May I suggest you use non-violent communication.

[Peace Seeker]

LENNY wrote:

I grew up in a neighborhood where you can fight bigotry outside yourself, daily. Probably could find one around here easily, homes. THEN you can tell me about the above in the truest sense of the word.


Even the word "bigotry" can be prejudicial: It sets up anyone with a prejudice we don't share -- or who we think is "unacceptably extreme" (as opposed to just "normal-range biased" as some kind of "inferior" defective, or monster. I tend to use the word "bigotry" to mean consciously harboring explicitly hateful or violent attitudes. But at the same time every time I read or use the word "bigot" I know that it's calling up a fear, hate or horror charged stereotype in myself and others. I've had some really close friends, in terms of how they treated me, who would say really gnarly things about other ethnic groups -- but while in their own minds, denying any malicious.

Point: you ain't seen nothing yet.
If you mean that inter-group hostility is going to break out in rougher, blunter and more extreme ways, as our economy lurches back into balance with the rest of the planet -- that's definitely true. As this economy unravels, people are going to freak. And it's alot easier to make up some explanation for my misfortune that blames a scapegoat group, than to look at how the social and economic system we're all stuck in is bleeding me and everyone else. Or to look into my own self to gather strength and endurance.

That's what anti-Jewish prejudice is all about: Fantasizing some mythic image of a roomfull of "alien" conspirators secretly twisting the levers of power to serve their secret agenda. Then blasting my own inner stew of rage, pain, shame and self-blame (shame, because I came up so short of my own success fantasies) at my nightmare picture of my imagined arch-enemies.

The same process drives "anti-terrorism" panic and paranoia.

You are probably fighting the bigotry your family gave to you.


There's some of that, definitely. My family of origin criticized prejudice, in principle. But still went on about Roman Catholics in really strange, hostile ways, and believed that "property values would drop" if a black family moved onto our block. Alot of them thought anti-segregation demonstrators should just calm down and count their (supposed) blessings. Things were gradually "getting better". They imagined that segregation -- left to itself -- segregation would gradually disappear over a couple of generations. So they should be happy and stop demanding so much from us white people.

On top of this, we were all spoon fed wildly skewed misconceptions about mens' and womens' natural roles, and about how sick and pathetic gays were. So yeah, that's alot to unsnarl, just from upbringing.


Truly, good for you. It just gets a little thick when spread as such.
Yeah - doubtless it comes across that way. I'm watching a dangerous situation turn worse, faster than peoples' present responses can stop it. I'm looking for people willing to pitch in and help bump the elimination of prejudice (and related suffering) to a higher level. Other people could do this more artfully than I can. But they're not stepping up. So it's on the rest of us to cover, with whatever shortcomings we bring along.
I look forward to seeing how you "do" [being a Marxist and Christian]. As it is a basic contradiction to be a Christian AND a Marxist. Matter of fact, it is dang near impossible to be a Marxist and not Machiavellian. And I like the way you put the "NON" next to Machiavelli's name. You are an admitted contradiction in terms, sir, and I await your future posts.

Yep. I know about the contradiction. Christian dogmatists insisting social progressivism is Godlessly materialistic or even demonic. Marxist-Leninists "proving scientifically" that Christian spirituality is a way to ignore and paper over our bourgeois collusion with an oppressive status-quo.

Here are some ways bring Christ and Marx into allignment:

1. If you understand Christianity as -- among other things -- an imperative to constantly err on the side of compassion, then solidarity with the oppressed becomes real consistent with the teachings of Jesus, real fast.

2. I don't embrace "dialectical materialism" or other rigorous Hegellian Marxist reasoning. Genius or not, Hegel gives me a headache. And Hegelian dialectics doesn't square with my understanding of either concrete reality or more transcendant spiritual Truth.

I do agree with Marx's class-based, consequential analysis of economics and social relations -- or with later Marxists' updated and refined versions of those approaches. I also agree with Marx's and Gramsci's theory of hegemony. Those approaches yield insights we can use to make our economy and society way healthier and happier, world wide. We need to use those Marxist tools as an integral part of our social and political understanding. Not flee from them, for fear using any Marxian reasoning will turn us all into little Stalins; or rob us of Christian salvation; or destroy us in some other way.

3. I share Marx's judgment about all of Humanity being jointly entitled to our Planet's collective wealth -- with private profiteers having no legitimate moral claim to amass and hog a pig's share. Not as "reward for innovation" or the prize for being the "most industrious" or the "most gifted". Those hoards of wealth are actually spoils, going to the most "competitive" -- which in our present system becomes the most cut-throat.

4. Machiavellianism isn't an inevitable conclusion from Marx's most valid insights. Marx's Machiavellianism is a product of his rejection of spirituality and of altruism, in favor of hard-eyed materialism. I think he was mistaken. But in his day, religion meant booking into a prejudiced set of sanctimonious rationalizations for the status quo. And Marx was a Jew stuck in a nasty, anti-Semitic Lutheran and Roman Catholic society. So it's understandable he found no redeeming potential in spirituality.

5. When Marx said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" he was only 95% correct. Since then percentages have shifted slightly for the better. Today I think he'd only be about 85% correct.

6. This isn't something unique to me, that I dreamed up. Italian and Central American Marxists and Christians have been teaching and practicing Christian Marxism for decades. That's what Liberation Theology is.



Please, though, for the sake of brevity, be succinct in your missives. They do get a bit wordy. :2cents:


I'm trying all the time. But this is probably as good as it's going to get.

Thanks for your intelligent interest.
David

[babaruss]

[quote=Reportanddeport;57687]YES INDEED, there will ALWAYS be scum in this world that needs to be dealt with, and no internet philosophers will ever change that. The world is full of scum like Al Qaeda and illegal aliens.=]

If I come across as an internet philosopher then I apologize for whatever part I played in that perception.
I already know how to be filled with hate, and anger (at all the apparent evil in the world, as well as those things I didn't want to take the time to understand).
At some point I realized that I didn't like the way anger, and hate, left me feeling, so I decided to try another approach.
That was my main point....sharing what I chose to do to become more comfortable in my own skin.
Hardly into saving the world there...was just try to save my own sorry self.


[quote=]There is NO "solution" for scum, other than to prosecute and/or kill them. Scumminess is an inevitable part of the human condition. You put one scumbag down, and more will pop up. I didn't ASK for that and I don't WANT it that way, but still it exists. =]

There are people in this world who do horrific things to one another.
From their point of view they may believe they are eliminating scum too.
Others are trying to find 'good' in sick, and harmful, ways.
None of us asked for these kinds of things to be happening, but since they are not going away anytime soon, I try to remember a few things.
We can only be that which we know, and not a hell of a lot more. This fact of life (barring new information to draw from) locks many people into a life time of destructive thought, and action.
When I take life a little less personally, work on my own flaws, and try to be open to differing points of view, I notice a slight shifts inside me.
Even right now I'm trying to take care of me.
I have noticed that since I started doing things this way...I was treating people, and situations, which once appaled me, in a kinder, more accepting manner.

[quote=]You may be scum, I don't know. And of course I have done scummy things.=]

I found it easier for me to change once I decided to opt for the word 'erred' in regards to my past failures (to respond in kind' and helpful ways to people).
I is very hard for 'scum' to move toward change. That lable sort of says it all...so why bother if I'm nothing more than a floating turd, or worse.
It is however infinitely more possible for someone who is just in error to become willing to correct that mistake.
Again...this is just my take on things. A personal take which is helpful enabling me own up to my mistakes, and correct them.


[quote=You're NEVER going to be able to understand the minds of all people and understand their reasoning and thought processes and get an adequate and acceptable explanation for their behaviour. Not EVERYTHING can be understood, nor is worth understanding.=]

The operative word here is 'all'
Of course no one will be able to understand the minds of all people.
The simple wanting to want to understand is enough for me to become more at peace with myself, and others.
When my focus is changed to wanting to understand ,and be helpful, I am working towards a solution instead of adding to the problem.
I don't have the time, energy, nor the intelligence, to understand everything.
I do have the ability to understand a little bit more each day.
Gradual, and incremental, learning is all I'll ever be able to accomplish.
It is (to me) worth whatever effort it takes... to gain understanding, and insights, into how other people see the world around them.


[quote=And NO ONE will EVER have a perfect plan for running their own minds. There's NO perfect philosophy.=]

A great big fat 'Amen !' goes along with that statement.
Progress towards a gaining greater understanding of myself and others is the most I could hope for. I'm willing to accept that for myself.
I doubt I'll ever run my own mind...maybe I'll get a little better use out of it if i can stop being so frustrated by things i have no real ability to change.
Philosophy...(perfect or otherwise) seem to me pipe dreams that we wish to be real.
They will always be impossible to attain.
Still to stop dreaming may be to die, so I opt for progress not perfection.
Hope I wasn't too philosophical this time out.
Russ

[Sabrina]

This is really great! I just signed it and sent it to everyone in my mailbox. Sorry for anybody who's already on wacco, I tried to leave some of those out who may already read this. I'm going to ad this info to the illegal alien thread in case some folks did not see this. I missed it till now.


I just found a great on-line project, set up by the Southern Poverty Law Center called "Stand Strong Against Hate".

You can include yourself on an online map of people in the U.S. standing against prejudice.

Go to https://www.splcenter.org/center/petitions/standstrong/

Enter your name, eMail address and Zip Code (this is kept confidential).

As people sign up, a map of the US gets shaded - by county -- into deeper and deeper shades of green (by "density" of supporters). This green overlay is placed over a U.S. map that already has red dots for the HQs of known US hate groups.

It's a relief to see the two displays combined, and be reminded that for each of these hate groups there are hundreds of determined people of good will going on record to stand for humane values.

I just entered my name. I immediately got this great (automated) response:


Thank you for standing strong against hate, David.

Standing strong with you are:
80 of your neighbors in SONOMA County
2073 fellow residents of CALIFORNIA. Good News indeed!

If everyone on WaccoBB who shares Southern Poverty Law Center's vision of a humane, tolerant nationa signed in, we'd REALLY see a high number for Sonoma County!

David

[Reportanddeport]

I don't so much have a problem with philosophy itself, but rather, anyone who used a philosophical approach as part of a pushy, sales job, would tend to make me rebel against an insincere philosopher or weak philosophy.

I don't believe that I can necessarily think my way into any better philosophy, because my mind constantly receives input from the outside world which I think is perpetually creating an evolving philosophy within me on the fly, as I react to the world based on my experiences.

Of those who do evil and scummy things, I think it is more important to try to stop them from doing those things than it is to try to understand why they do what they do.

You can get raped and murdered a lot faster than you can ever figure out WHY someone did it.




[quote=Reportanddeport;57687]YES INDEED, there will ALWAYS be scum in this world that needs to be dealt with, and no internet philosophers will ever change that. The world is full of scum like Al Qaeda and illegal aliens.=]

If I come across as an internet philosopher then I apologize for whatever part I played in that perception.
I already know how to be filled with hate, and anger (at all the apparent evil in the world, as well as those things I didn't want to take the time to understand).
At some point I realized that I didn't like the way anger, and hate, left me feeling, so I decided to try another approach.
That was my main point....sharing what I chose to do to become more comfortable in my own skin.
Hardly into saving the world there...was just try to save my own sorry self.


[quote]There is NO "solution" for scum, other than to prosecute and/or kill them. Scumminess is an inevitable part of the human condition. You put one scumbag down, and more will pop up. I didn't ASK for that and I don't WANT it that way, but still it exists. =]

There are people in this world who do horrific things to one another.
From their point of view they may believe they are eliminating scum too.
Others are trying to find 'good' in sick, and harmful, ways.
None of us asked for these kinds of things to be happening, but since they are not going away anytime soon, I try to remember a few things.
We can only be that which we know, and not a hell of a lot more. This fact of life (barring new information to draw from) locks many people into a life time of destructive thought, and action.
When I take life a little less personally, work on my own flaws, and try to be open to differing points of view, I notice a slight shifts inside me.
Even right now I'm trying to take care of me.
I have noticed that since I started doing things this way...I was treating people, and situations, which once appaled me, in a kinder, more accepting manner.

[quote]You may be scum, I don't know. And of course I have done scummy things.=]

I found it easier for me to change once I decided to opt for the word 'erred' in regards to my past failures (to respond in kind' and helpful ways to people).
I is very hard for 'scum' to move toward change. That lable sort of says it all...so why bother if I'm nothing more than a floating turd, or worse.
It is however infinitely more possible for someone who is just in error to become willing to correct that mistake.
Again...this is just my take on things. A personal take which is helpful enabling me own up to my mistakes, and correct them.


[quote=You're NEVER going to be able to understand the minds of all people and understand their reasoning and thought processes and get an adequate and acceptable explanation for their behaviour. Not EVERYTHING can be understood, nor is worth understanding.=]

The operative word here is 'all'
Of course no one will be able to understand the minds of all people.
The simple wanting to want to understand is enough for me to become more at peace with myself, and others.
When my focus is changed to wanting to understand ,and be helpful, I am working towards a solution instead of adding to the problem.
I don't have the time, energy, nor the intelligence, to understand everything.
I do have the ability to understand a little bit more each day.
Gradual, and incremental, learning is all I'll ever be able to accomplish.
It is (to me) worth whatever effort it takes... to gain understanding, and insights, into how other people see the world around them.


[quote=And NO ONE will EVER have a perfect plan for running their own minds. There's NO perfect philosophy.=]

A great big fat 'Amen !' goes along with that statement.
Progress towards a gaining greater understanding of myself and others is the most I could hope for. I'm willing to accept that for myself.
I doubt I'll ever run my own mind...maybe I'll get a little better use out of it if i can stop being so frustrated by things i have no real ability to change.
Philosophy...(perfect or otherwise) seem to me pipe dreams that we wish to be real.
They will always be impossible to attain.
Still to stop dreaming may be to die, so I opt for progress not perfection.
Hope I wasn't too philosophical this time out.
Russ

[babaruss]

[quote=Reportanddeport;58113]I don't so much have a problem with philosophy itself, but rather, anyone who used a philosophical approach as part of a pushy, sales job, would tend to make me rebel against an insincere philosopher or weak philosophy.=]

I'm in full agreement with that statement.

[quote=I don't believe that I can necessarily think my way into any better philosophy, because my mind constantly receives input from the outsideworld which I think is perpetually creating an evolving philosophy within me on the fly, as I react to the world based on my experiences.=]


Once again I agree with you...I do however, take time to read, and or check in on other people's ideas (as an adjucnt to my daily experiences) just to see where I stand by comparison.
Not a sure fire way for deciding what's right, or wrong, but it is an excellent way for me to make sure my ego isn't taken me too far a field.
That's been a problem I've dealt with for years (the feeling positive my understanding of things was etched in stone) !


[quote=Of those who do evil and scummy things, I think it is more important to try to stop them from doing those things than it is to try to understand why they do what they do. =]

Well here I'll take another direction from yours.
Trying to eliminate those people you call scum from doing wrong on an individual basis is sort of like playing 'whack a mole'.
One pops up, gets whacked, and then another one does the same thing.
Obviously laws alone won't staunch the flow of wrong doers.
It only addresses those caught, tried and convicted.
Vigilantism doesn't really address the problem much either....still whack a mole, but with many moles instead of just the occasional one.
Understanding 'cause and effect' may (possibly) lead to a means of eliminating greater numbers of (would be) offenders early on....long before they ever get a chance to do wrong.

[quote=You can get raped and murdered a lot faster than you can ever figure out WHY someone did it.=]

No arguement there.
I have no intention of thinking to myself (as I'm being stabbed, or shot)
'well my goodness...here's a poor sick, misunderstood, human being...how can I ever be of help to him' !!
Fight or flight...my basic survival instincts will no doubt be the order of that day !!
I do think we can, through examining enviornmental, (and other forms of conditioning) begin to find ways to eliminate some of these people from ever becoming 'scum' in the first place.
I don't think my ideas are 'pie in the sky, bleeding heart, liberal', material, so much as just another idea to put forward for solving some of the problems which currently cause you anger, and frustration.
Learning 'cause and effect' reasons in, and of it self is usless.
Implementing these discoveries in a consistent, and meaningful way would also be needed.
Like I said before.
Just my take on things, and nothing more.
Russ

[Reportanddeport]

Yes, confronting scumbags is an endless "whack-a-mole" process. Because the moles can not not always be successfully addressed in a non-physical and/or non-violent way. I can see the DESIRE to communicate with and understand the moles, but the mere ATTEMPT at understanding does not always produce results. MOLES WON'T STOP MAKING PROBLEMS, no matter how hard you try to understand them.

Cause and Effect can and should be addressed in all corrective actions. So if the cause of the Turd World's invasion of the U.S.A. is indeed U.S. trade policies, then I don't see how see how surrendering the U.S.A. to the Turd Worlders is going to make either the U.S.A. or the Turd World better. You can gulp down GALLONS of pus, but there will still ALWAYS be infection somewhere.

You can try to reduce scum, but you're NOT going to get RID of scum. In this forum I am considered scum by many people, but there's NOTHING you can do for ME to make me stop being scum in the eyes of many wacco babies.

So if you realize that you can't get rid of scum, then you should also realize that sometimes you have to resort to the whack-a-mole.





Well here I'll take another direction from yours.
Trying to eliminate those people you call scum from doing wrong on an individual basis is sort of like playing 'whack a mole'.
One pops up, gets whacked, and then another one does the same thing.
Obviously laws alone won't staunch the flow of wrong doers.
It only addresses those caught, tried and convicted.
Vigilantism doesn't really address the problem much either....still whack a mole, but with many moles instead of just the occasional one.
Understanding 'cause and effect' may (possibly) lead to a means of eliminating greater numbers of (would be) offenders early on....long before they ever get a chance to do wrong.

[quote=You can get raped and murdered a lot faster than you can ever figure out WHY someone did it.=]

No arguement there.
I have no intention of thinking to myself (as I'm being stabbed, or shot)
'well my goodness...here's a poor sick, misunderstood, human being...how can I ever be of help to him' !!
Fight or flight...my basic survival instincts will no doubt be the order of that day !!
I do think we can, through examining enviornmental, (and other forms of conditioning) begin to find ways to eliminate some of these people from ever becoming 'scum' in the first place.
I don't think my ideas are 'pie in the sky, bleeding heart, liberal', material, so much as just another idea to put forward for solving some of the problems which currently cause you anger, and frustration.
Learning 'cause and effect' reasons in, and of it self is usless.
Implementing these discoveries in a consistent, and meaningful way would also be needed.
Like I said before.
Just my take on things, and nothing more.
Russ

[Peace Seeker]

This is challenging to read, R&D -- because you make some valid and thoughtful points, but then you say vicious things that don't square with thoughtful awareness. In your most recent message you talked about the "turd world's invasion of the U.S.A." But you say elsewhere that you're not prejudiced or hateful toward people in other countries, and other races. In fact, you stress, you married someone you met while in a third world country. But don't you think she, her parents and other relatives would be extremely hurt to hear you talk that way about their people? Turds?

There has to be some extreme disconnect operating in your thoughts and feelings, to talk this way about people you obviously care about.

I realize this is very personal ground, so I'll understand if you don't want to discuss it publicly. But wow.

David

[babaruss]

[quote=Reportanddeport;58139....Because the moles can not not always be successfully addressed in a non-physical and/or non-violent way.=]

Agreed, but I'm willing to accept progress where I can, and keep looking for other more productive means for correcting ugly, life problems

[quote= I can see the DESIRE to communicate with and understand the moles, but the mere ATTEMPT at understanding does not always produce results.=]

Just because my efforts do not always produce emmediate results is not sufficient reason to quit trying. Eddison tried thousands of times to perfect the filiment in the light bulb, before he finally found something which worked.
That light bulb is still burning somewhere I recently read. That sort of focused effort impresses me.

[quote=MOLES WON'T STOP MAKING PROBLEMS, no matter how hard you try to understand them.=]

For sure, there will always be new moles popping up, but my belief is that the problems will be fewer, and farther between...at least as far as the original more violent issues were concerned (presupposing we found solutions to that problem).
Searching for, and then solving social problems, before they get out of control makes more far sense than using a perpertual 'whack a mole' approach for a solution.
After all we do have the collective resources, and intelligence, it's just that we have yet to come up with the will to put those resources into action.


[quote=Cause and Effect can and should be addressed in all corrective actions. So if the cause of the Turd World's invasion of the U.S.A. is indeed U.S. trade policies, then I don't see how see how surrendering the U.S.A. to the Turd Worlders is going to make either the U.S.A. or the Turd World better. You can gulp down GALLONS of pus, but there will still ALWAYS be infection somewhere.=]

Examining trade policies may well be a useful approach to 'invasion' problem.
Trade policies alone won't solve the issues related to violent crime committed by illegal immigrants. So possibly other venues here, and in the country of origin, may also need to be addressed.
Draining puss is a good first effort at getting a clearing idea of what the wound is all about.
Better to have cleared that much away than to have it burst.
Also, a clean wound is always better than a festering wound.
Sometimes treatment takes a bit more time than we would like, but a little infection is not too bad to deal with (now that we've found what the problem realy is)

[quote=You can try to reduce scum, but you're NOT going to get RID of scum.=]

Absolutely true....but reducing a problem's size is good reason to continue seeking solutions...reduced size means making headway to me. Progress shown, headway gained, however slow, is reason enough continue towards the goal.


[quote= In this forum I am considered scum by many people, but there's NOTHING you can do for ME to make me stop being scum in the eyes of many wacco babies.=]


It is possible to lessen conflict by focusing on what is important.
Name calling, confrontational tactics, and shunning, all prove useless for promoting openess, an understanding.
Just try calling me names, and pelting me with rocks, prior to having me sign your petition !!
Erecting barriers to meaningful dialoge seems like bad way to solve problems.
People see what they want to see, hear what they want to hear, and for the most part say what they want to say.
If I begin to take those opinions too seriously I'll find myself in a lot of trouble. Anger, frustration and other less than healthy emotions, crop up to cloud my judgement.

Granny said " opinions is like bottoms...we all got 'em....I'm' mo's happy when we all jest sit on 'em".
Russ



Russ

[Lenny]

[quote=Reportanddeport;58113]I don't so much have a problem with philosophy itself, but rather, anyone who used a philosophical approach as part of a pushy, sales job, would tend to make me rebel against an insincere philosopher or weak philosophy.I don't believe that I can necessarily think my way into any better philosophy, because my mind constantly receives input from the outside world which I think is perpetually creating an evolving philosophy within me on the fly, as I react to the world based on my experiences.
[quote}

It has been my experience that philosophy is not arrived at on the fly, nor while one is being bombarded by the outside world, save a quiet conversation with a friend. But rather reflection quietly found in mediation, reflection, and communication. And as for finding any one philosophy that is NOT weak or have fault, when you do, let us all know. You'll make a gazillion dollars, and be happy. Or, as you learn to live in this world with your own philosophy, be imperfectly happy.

[Lenny]

LENNY wrote:

I grew up in a neighborhood where you can fight bigotry outside yourself, daily. Probably could find one around here easily, homes. THEN you can tell me about the above in the truest sense of the word.
Even the word "bigotry" can be prejudicial: It sets up anyone with a prejudice we don't share -- or who we think is "unacceptably extreme" (as opposed to just "normal-range biased" as some kind of "inferior" defective, or monster. I tend to use the word "bigotry" to mean consciously harboring explicitly hateful or violent attitudes. But at the same time every time I read or use the word "bigot" I know that it's calling up a fear, hate or horror charged stereotype in myself and others. I've had some really close friends, in terms of how they treated me, who would say really gnarly things about other ethnic groups -- but while in their own minds, denying any malicious.

Well, I've had great conversations, and even a few decent friends that have admitted their "hatred" of us mud people, and then just kept on moving on down the road. The term is not to be avoided, or cause you to take a quick shallow breath. It is to describe a real condition of our heart. If you look across the savanna and see another set of monkeys, it's OK to have all that. As a brave one, you move out of that feeling when you encounter the other tribe, and behave "civilized", but all the other cues are there and not to denied.
Point: you ain't seen nothing yet.
If you mean that inter-group hostility is going to break out in rougher, blunter and more extreme ways, as our economy lurches back into balance with the rest of the planet -- that's definitely true. As this economy unravels, people are going to freak. And it's alot easier to make up some explanation for my misfortune that blames a scapegoat group, than to look at how the social and economic system we're all stuck in is bleeding me and everyone else. Or to look into my own self to gather strength and endurance.

Well, if you being "far sighted", then I can't agree with your basic assumption. If you are being dramatic, then the element of truth may be over played. Yeah, things could get worse, and in fact, for the chronic poor and 4th world, they would be better off if we bombed them straight out rather than die slowly due to our "treatment" of the condition we placed them upon them. And the public is "shocked" due to some minister stating, "goddamn America for treating people less than human".

That's what anti-Jewish prejudice is all about: Fantasizing some mythic image of a roomfull of "alien" conspirators secretly twisting the levers of power to serve their secret agenda. Then blasting my own inner stew of rage, pain, shame and self-blame (shame, because I came up so short of my own success fantasies) at my nightmare picture of my imagined arch-enemies.

Funny. Other thread about Farakahan has a thread about anti-Jewish notions. It is not without precedence that folks do get together and breath the same air while fomenting plans on the destruction of others.

The same process drives "anti-terrorism" panic and paranoia.

You are getting to far out for me on the above. It is THEIR claim to want to kill us. Proof: WTC, 1994 and 2001. Plus there press releases: "we want to kill you". I am missing your point, though I've read the above a couple of times. Fill me in on the "clueless" part.
You know, you read as a Ghandi type of guy. Please understand that he was an idiot. If you don't get that part, then we are at an impasse. He wanted the Brits to lay down to the German invasion. No resistance, he spouted. Makes me wonder about his hidden agenda relative to British power, but still had they done that it would have been idiocy.
You are probably fighting the bigotry your family gave to you.
There's some of that, definitely. My family of origin criticized prejudice, in principle. But still went on about Roman Catholics in really strange, hostile ways, and believed that "property values would drop" if a black family moved onto our block. Alot of them thought anti-segregation demonstrators should just calm down and count their (supposed) blessings. Things were gradually "getting better". They imagined that segregation -- left to itself -- segregation would gradually disappear over a couple of generations. So they should be happy and stop demanding so much from us white people.

Not to put to fine a point on it: when "colored folks" move in, property values DO go down. Folks SHOULD count their blessings, as things have gotten a lot better. Yes, I know at the cost of many, but they have. And as for a coule of generations to have segregation to melt away, have you seen whose running for president lately?
Point: maybe your folks knew SOMETHING?

On top of this, we were all spoon fed wildly skewed misconceptions about mens' and womens' natural roles, and about how sick and pathetic gays were. So yeah, that's alot to unsnarl, just from upbringing.

Well, we keep finding out about males and females natural roles and what comes from them, like division of labor, which is still being worked out after 2M generations. Of course you realize why we are so hated all over the world. You can blame George, but when we go into countries and villages that prize their own ways, like virginity, family, and relition, and tell them about gays, abortion, promiscuity, etc. they get a little bent out of shape, don't cha' know. And then we act all "superior", due to our "misconception about men's and women's NATURAL roles....gays...". And we've been promulgating these things for about 40 years!
Truly, good for you. It just gets a little thick when spread as such.
Yeah - doubtless it comes across that way. I'm watching a dangerous situation turn worse, faster than peoples' present responses can stop it. I'm looking for people willing to pitch in and help bump the elimination of prejudice (and related suffering) to a higher level. Other people could do this more artfully than I can. But they're not stepping up. So it's on the rest of us to cover, with whatever shortcomings we bring along. I look forward to seeing how you "do" [being a Marxist and Christian]. As it is a basic contradiction to be a Christian AND a Marxist. Matter of fact, it is dang near impossible to be a Marxist and not Machiavellian. And I like the way you put the "NON" next to Machiavelli's name. You are an admitted contradiction in terms, sir, and I await your future posts.

Yep. I know about the contradiction. Christian dogmatists insisting social progressivism is Godlessly materialistic or even demonic. Marxist-Leninists "proving scientifically" that Christian spirituality is a way to ignore and paper over our bourgeois collusion with an oppressive status-quo.

Well, I am sure Liberation Theology is big in a few shrinking places, but to not see the contradiction between Mammon and Spirit is to be in denial.
All "status-quo" is "oppressive". Even your language is Marxist, and as I recall, Marx proclaimed religion to be an opiate. For him, I am sure it was,and it can well be STILL. But your notion is just as wrong, as it is a religion, from the gate. Look up the latin origin of the word "religion" and you must agree, I should think. When EVER we "bind together" we must give up to a higher authority. No matter in gov't, religion, or basketball. Once we do THAT, we cut ourself off from the very thing we want most. So, contradiction, they name is man.

Here are some ways bring Christ and Marx into allignment:

1. If you understand Christianity as -- among other things -- an imperative to constantly err on the side of compassion, then solidarity with the oppressed becomes real consistent with the teachings of Jesus, real fast.

Thanks. Really. That lays out a fundamental flaw with "the Social Gospel" and the message of Jesus. Buddha taught compassion. Go to him and start your stuff. You missed the Jesus issue, for sure.You want the social part to be of the highest importance, as in social-ist. Sorry, no soap. Sorry for being so trite, but go read about it from that guy at all the football games.

2. I don't embrace "dialectical materialism" or other rigorous Hegellian Marxist reasoning. Genius or not, Hegel gives me a headache. And Hegelian dialectics doesn't square with my understanding of either concrete reality or more transcendant spiritual Truth.

While there is no "absolute truth" in dialectical materialism", like Aristotelian logic, there is a good tool there to make points. But even the best of genius cannot take the whole material market into scope for drawing any serious conclusions or determinations for the individual and thus simply thwarts the very people it "supposedly" tries to help.
Oh, and the Jesus issue is not "transcendental" as there is NOTHING intuitive that Jesus taught. We cannot get to it by reflection, experience, or any other way. Buddha at least taught those "truths" he expounded on existed whether he pronounced them or not. And that anybody can get to
the same truths as he did. Jesus made no such claim. He declared the nature of reality and it was NOT transcendental or reachable by nature. Just the opposite.

I do agree with Marx's class-based, consequential analysis of economics and social relations -- or with later Marxists' updated and refined versions of those approaches. I also agree with Marx's and Gramsci's theory of hegemony. Those approaches yield insights we can use to make our economy and society way healthier and happier, world wide. We need to use those Marxist tools as an integral part of our social and political understanding. Not flee from them, for fear using any Marxian reasoning will turn us all into little Stalins; or rob us of Christian salvation; or destroy us in some other way.

Your path to hell is clear. Obviously you are not pretty enough to join the true cultural elite that is changing our society: the entertainment industry. That is the culutral hegemony that will take us to hell quickest, along with and next to your notion of "christianity". As you join with your comrade in arms across the cultural milieu, please come to know that though your heart is "pure" in your convictions, you are dead wrong.

To the end.

3. I share Marx's judgment about all of Humanity being jointly entitled to our Planet's collective wealth -- with private profiteers having no legitimate moral claim to amass and hog a pig's share. Not as "reward for innovation" or the prize for being the "most industrious" or the "most gifted". Those hoards of wealth are actually spoils, going to the most "competitive" -- which in our present system becomes the most cut-throat.

4. Machiavellianism isn't an inevitable conclusion from Marx's most valid insights. Marx's Machiavellianism is a product of his rejection of spirituality and of altruism, in favor of hard-eyed materialism. I think he was mistaken. But in his day, religion meant booking into a prejudiced set of sanctimonious rationalizations for the status quo. And Marx was a Jew stuck in a nasty, anti-Semitic Lutheran and Roman Catholic society. So it's understandable he found no redeeming potential in spirituality.

5. When Marx said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" he was only 95% correct. Since then percentages have shifted slightly for the better. Today I think he'd only be about 85% correct.

6. This isn't something unique to me, that I dreamed up. Italian and Central American Marxists and Christians have been teaching and practicing Christian Marxism for decades. That's what Liberation Theology is.

Please, though, for the sake of brevity, be succinct in your missives. They do get a bit wordy. :2cents:

I'm trying all the time. But this is probably as good as it's going to get.

Thanks for your intelligent interest.
David

David, after showing your hand in the above, I've nothing left to discuss with you. Except please consider me an enemy of your belief system. There is no point in answering your scree, one by one, as you are gone as in being a True Believer (a al Erich Hoffer), and are beyond my time, abilities, or interest. Safe to say, your approach is to enslave me and all others with that pap you promulgate. And some of my ancestors lived in enough slavery to last to my generation, without you trying to put more chains on me. Never again.You can go to hell.

[Braggi]

... Well, I am sure Liberation Theology is big in a few shrinking places, but to not see the contradiction between Mammon and Spirit is to be in denial.
...

Teach me, Lenny, about the contradiction. Please define, at least in part, what Mammon and Spirit mean to you.


... Even your language is Marxist, and as I recall, Marx proclaimed religion to be an opiate. For him, I am sure it was,and it can well be STILL. ...

Just curious here Lenny; a lot of people make that Marx quote, but few know what he was talking about, or have read it in context. What do you mean by it?

-Jeff

[Reportanddeport]

"Vicious"? Sometimes, reality is unpleasant. But merely giving something a pleasant, sugar coating, does not change the contents within. If I described shit as "smelly, brown, full of bacteria and covered with flies", I would expect many wacco babies to pound me and say that I say "vicious things" and lack "thoughtful awareness". But an angry and/or condescending attitude towards my attitude would NOT change my attitude.

Yes, I expected a shocked reaction to my use of the term, "Turd World", but I did not use that term for mere, cheap, shock value. I DO believe that the the Third World IS the Turd World. The Turd World is full of crude, cruel, uncivilized and barbaric practices, and for me to fail to express my true attitude towards it would not make the Turd World better, nor would a resulting condemnation of me change my attitude.

I do NOT consider myself to be a prejudicial person, nor do I consider myself to be a racist. I am AWARE of certain things that a typical, America-hating Lib does not want to seriously consider.

I think my wife's parents would be embarrassed if they knew what I thought of their home and of The Philippines in general, but I don't think they would be terribly HURT.

From the air, even at night, you can see how rundown and dirty the Manila area is. When you first breathe the air, you can smell it and feel the assault on your lungs. It makes Los Angeles air look and smell clean in comparison. There is no regular, garbage service in most areas, so household garbage is collected in the yard, attracting rats and roaches and flies. The garbage is burned in people's yard's, daily. In the cities, workers sweep up garbage and leaves, and burn it in the gutter. There is no such thing as pollution control equipment on vehicles, so you can see smoke coming out of cars and gushing out of trucks and buses. All these things explain the horribly, filthy air.

My In-Laws, like most Filipino families, have mostly accepted the rats and mice and roaches that scamper through their house. Sitting in the living room, watching TV, you see a rat run through the room every few minutes. No one in the family will patch the holes in the walls that let the rats in. The only times traps are used is when I bring them from California. Cats and dogs are not allowed in the house to chase down the vermin.

The streets are very narrow and congested and people drive like maniacs. There are traffic laws, but people ignore them. If you get pulled over, you just give the cop some money, and the ticket goes away. Syndicates of homeless children, run by adults, stand on street corners to beg. The money they collect is then taken by their handlers. Maria told me of handlers amputating the legs of their kept children, to enable them to collect more money, exploiting compassionate people. Unregulated shacks pop up in any empty space, with power stolen directly from the power line. It is legal to urinate ANYWHERE. The homeless people pull down their pants and do their business in plain sight. Parents pull down the pants of little boys, and have them pee in the middle of parking lots in plain sight.

When we go outside Metro Manila, I have to stay close to my family, since I am a target for kidnapping by Communists (NPA) because I am White, and they assume I am rich. The southern islands are heavily populated by Muslim terrorists (Abu Sayaf), who would happily kidnap me or slit my throat. My Wife's brother-in-law led the mission that killed the terrorists that kidnapped the American couple from the vacation resort island.

Military and police units patrol the airports with machine guns held at waist level. All major malls are accessible only if you pass a wanding and a search of your bags. Almost all security guards are armed with shotguns, M-1 carbines or sidearms. Armed security guards in uniform also bus tables at restaurants.

If your employer wants you to work overtime, then you work overtime. No, you don't get overtime PAY, you get NOTHING for overtime. If you don't like it, then you can get another job.

Cemetery workers live in tombs in the cemeteries, under the condition that they leave while the dead person's family visits. The eat, sleep, cook and raise children in mausoleums. Since tomb space is limited, it is rented for a few years, then the tomb dwellers dig out the bones from the crypts so someone else's body can be placed there.

In Africa, women and little girls are held down and they have their clitorises cut out. In Afghanistan, women who escape abusive husbands are arrested and imprisoned for being a runaway. In Saudi Arabia, teenage girls were forced to burn to death, because they were not allowed to escape a burning building because they did not have their veils on. In Iran, homosexuals are hung on public streets from mobile hanging vehicles that look tow trucks BECAUSE they are homosexual. In India, women frequently have acid thrown on their faces if the dowry is not big enough. Also, in India, the prostitute caste auctions off virgins for the first, most expensive fuck. In Mexico, police chiefs are regularly gunned down by the drug mafia. Yesterday, the 4th most powerful cop in Mexico was assassinated. He was responsible for preventing kidnappings. In China, people are executed and their body organs are stolen for sale. In China, cats are stuffed in sacks and are boiled alive, to make it easier to pull their skins off. In China, Raccoon Dogs are grabbed while still alive, smacked on the ground to stun them, then they have their skin pulled of WHILE STILL ALIVE. They are then thrown down, while they crawl around for a few minutes, their eyes blinking, before they die. In China, bears live in tiny cages with tubes stuck in their chests to extract gall bladder fluid. Throughout Asia, tigers and bears are being exterminated to collect body parts for "medicine".

What part of TURD WORLD don't you understand?







This is challenging to read, R&D -- because you make some valid and thoughtful points, but then you say vicious things that don't square with thoughtful awareness. In your most recent message you talked about the "turd world's invasion of the U.S.A." But you say elsewhere that you're not prejudiced or hateful toward people in other countries, and other races. In fact, you stress, you married someone you met while in a third world country. But don't you think she, her parents and other relatives would be extremely hurt to hear you talk that way about their people? Turds?

There has to be some extreme disconnect operating in your thoughts and feelings, to talk this way about people you obviously care about.

I realize this is very personal ground, so I'll understand if you don't want to discuss it publicly. But wow.

David

[Peace Seeker]

Lenny,

I have no idea what led you to write so viciously.

I responded in good faith to what I reasonably took to be a mutually respectful, genuinely curious inquiry about how I reconcile Marx ahd Chrsitianity.

You slammed back up with a scurrilous, hateful trashing.

Had I realized how hatefully you actually intended your questions, I would never have offered up cherished values and convictions for the sneering personal bashing that you dealt out.

Apparently you are extremely bitter. Apparently you imagine that entitles you to hatefully ambush and bash an utter stranger. as an outlet and scapegoat for that bitterness.

How dare you? What gratuitously ugly, hateful, twisted conduct. Morally, you had absolutely zero right to do that.

Worse yet, you're pouring that poison into a world where my child and alot of other innocent, impressionable children have to survive. Thanks so much for polluting their world even worse than you found it. For what? To regurgitate the fatuous bromides of Eric Hoeffer? To spew a series of dogmatic attacks on imaginary targets that bear zero resemblance to the cartoon figures you've substituted for them?

I have to conclude you are tormented in some very sad way, that prompted you to act as you did. I am sorry for whatever abuse or injury reduced you to such a miserable state. But you have a responsiblity to recognize that your actions are harmful, and do something to stop yourself.

Don't drag me into your perversely abusive games again.

[Valley Oak]

Lenny, are you related to Lenny Bruce? You are really funny! Or are you like Lenin, very harsh and dictatorial and will always have his way!

But I understand, Lenny, because David is a direct descendent of Stalin and if you are not careful with him then he will bring Red Slavery to the United States! And you will be in shackles! So be ready to fight and insult and put down everyone on this list in order to save america from Communism!

Lenny, you deserve the medal of honor for ensuring our safety by expressing your Rush Limbaugh style posts.

I am in your debt; we all are!

Edward



LENNY wrote:

David, after showing your hand in the above, I've nothing left to discuss with you. Except please consider me an enemy of your belief system. There is no point in answering your scree, one by one, as you are gone as in being a True Believer (a al Erich Hoffer), and are beyond my time, abilities, or interest. Safe to say, your approach is to enslave me and all others with that pap you promulgate. And some of my ancestors lived in enough slavery to last to my generation, without you trying to put more chains on me. Never again.You can go to hell.

[MsTerry]

Your word of the day Xenophobia


"Vicious"? Sometimes, reality is unpleasant. But merely giving something a pleasant, sugar coating, does not change the contents within. If I described shit as "smelly, brown, full of bacteria and covered with flies", I would expect many wacco babies to pound me and say that I say "vicious things" and lack "thoughtful awareness". But an angry and/or condescending attitude towards my attitude would NOT change my attitude.

Yes, I expected a shocked reaction to my use of the term, "Turd World", but I did not use that term for mere, cheap, shock value. I DO believe that the the Third World IS the Turd World. The Turd World is full of crude, cruel, uncivilized and barbaric practices, and for me to fail to express my true attitude towards it would not make the Turd World better, nor would a resulting condemnation of me change my attitude.

I do NOT consider myself to be a prejudicial person, nor do I consider myself to be a racist. I am AWARE of certain things that a typical, America-hating Lib does not want to seriously consider.

I think my wife's parents would be embarrassed if they knew what I thought of their home and of The Philippines in general, but I don't think they would be terribly HURT.

From the air, even at night, you can see how rundown and dirty the Manila area is. When you first breathe the air, you can smell it and feel the assault on your lungs. It makes Los Angeles air look and smell clean in comparison. There is no regular, garbage service in most areas, so household garbage is collected in the yard, attracting rats and roaches and flies. The garbage is burned in people's yard's, daily. In the cities, workers sweep up garbage and leaves, and burn it in the gutter. There is no such thing as pollution control equipment on vehicles, so you can see smoke coming out of cars and gushing out of trucks and buses. All these things explain the horribly, filthy air.

My In-Laws, like most Filipino families, have mostly accepted the rats and mice and roaches that scamper through their house. Sitting in the living room, watching TV, you see a rat run through the room every few minutes. No one in the family will patch the holes in the walls that let the rats in. The only times traps are used is when I bring them from California. Cats and dogs are not allowed in the house to chase down the vermin.

The streets are very narrow and congested and people drive like maniacs. There are traffic laws, but people ignore them. If you get pulled over, you just give the cop some money, and the ticket goes away. Syndicates of homeless children, run by adults, stand on street corners to beg. The money they collect is then taken by their handlers. Maria told me of handlers amputating the legs of their kept children, to enable them to collect more money, exploiting compassionate people. Unregulated shacks pop up in any empty space, with power stolen directly from the power line. It is legal to urinate ANYWHERE. The homeless people pull down their pants and do their business in plain sight. Parents pull down the pants of little boys, and have them pee in the middle of parking lots in plain sight.

When we go outside Metro Manila, I have to stay close to my family, since I am a target for kidnapping by Communists (NPA) because I am White, and they assume I am rich. The southern islands are heavily populated by Muslim terrorists (Abu Sayaf), who would happily kidnap me or slit my throat. My Wife's brother-in-law led the mission that killed the terrorists that kidnapped the American couple from the vacation resort island.

Military and police units patrol the airports with machine guns held at waist level. All major malls are accessible only if you pass a wanding and a search of your bags. Almost all security guards are armed with shotguns, M-1 carbines or sidearms. Armed security guards in uniform also bus tables at restaurants.

If your employer wants you to work overtime, then you work overtime. No, you don't get overtime PAY, you get NOTHING for overtime. If you don't like it, then you can get another job.

Cemetery workers live in tombs in the cemeteries, under the condition that they leave while the dead person's family visits. The eat, sleep, cook and raise children in mausoleums. Since tomb space is limited, it is rented for a few years, then the tomb dwellers dig out the bones from the crypts so someone else's body can be placed there.

In Africa, women and little girls are held down and they have their clitorises cut out. In Afghanistan, women who escape abusive husbands are arrested and imprisoned for being a runaway. In Saudi Arabia, teenage girls were forced to burn to death, because they were not allowed to escape a burning building because they did not have their veils on. In Iran, homosexuals are hung on public streets from mobile hanging vehicles that look tow trucks BECAUSE they are homosexual. In India, women frequently have acid thrown on their faces if the dowry is not big enough. Also, in India, the prostitute caste auctions off virgins for the first, most expensive fuck. In Mexico, police chiefs are regularly gunned down by the drug mafia. Yesterday, the 4th most powerful cop in Mexico was assassinated. He was responsible for preventing kidnappings. In China, people are executed and their body organs are stolen for sale. In China, cats are stuffed in sacks and are boiled alive, to make it easier to pull their skins off. In China, Raccoon Dogs are grabbed while still alive, smacked on the ground to stun them, then they have their skin pulled of WHILE STILL ALIVE. They are then thrown down, while they crawl around for a few minutes, their eyes blinking, before they die. In China, bears live in tiny cages with tubes stuck in their chests to extract gall bladder fluid. Throughout Asia, tigers and bears are being exterminated to collect body parts for "medicine".

What part of TURD WORLD don't you understand?

[Lenny]

Teach me, Lenny, about the contradiction. Please define, at least in part, what Mammon and Spirit mean to you. Just curious here Lenny; a lot of people make that Marx quote, but few know what he was talking about, or have read it in context. What do you mean by it?
-Jeff

What he meant! In essence he would wipe out all religions, because of religion, ..."since the human essence has not acquired any true reality". As I read it he also wars on all notions of any god with..."man is no abstract being squatting outside the world. Man is the world of man—state, society". He hated the very stench of religion.."The struggle against religion is, therefore, indirectly the struggle against that world whose spiritual aroma is religion".
So, in context Marx hated religion (sometimes no one can blame him) and God (again, nothing new as in Christianity hating God is PART of the deal, while in Islam their is a submitting relationship, which some viewed as an animosity).
As for teaching anyone, I am sorry. Can't be done. You are your own, so if there is anything I can tell you: look to your own way, and all the shadows there.

Dfn Mammon: that which is made by man. That which engages us, made by man, that take us off our path. Neurosis and behavior, by more modern nomenclature.
Dfn Spirit: no, I won't EVEN try. To even attempt is missing the mark.
But thanks for the opportunity.
Now, back to the flame wars!


Below is what Karl Marx wrote.
Introduction to Critique of Hegel's Philosophy of Right (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critique_of_Hegel%27s_Philosophy_of_Right): "Religion is, indeed, the self-consciousness and self-esteem of man who has either not yet won through to himself, or has already lost himself again. But man is no abstract being squatting outside the world. Man is the world of man—state, society. This state and this society produce religion, which is an inverted consciousness of the world, because they are an inverted world. Religion is the general theory of this world, its encyclopedic compendium, its logic in popular form, its spiritual point d'honneur, its enthusiasm, its moral sanction, its solemn complement, and its universal basis of consolation and justification. It is the fantastic realization of the human essence since the human essence has not acquired any true reality. The struggle against religion is, therefore, indirectly the struggle against that world whose spiritual aroma is religion.
Religious suffering is, at one and the same time, the expression of real suffering and a protest against real suffering. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people [Emphasis added]
The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is the demand for their real happiness. To call on them to give up their illusions about their condition is to call on them to give up a condition that requires illusions. The criticism of religion is, therefore, in embryo, the criticism of that vale of tears of which religion is the halo.

[Lenny]

Lenny, are you related to Lenny Bruce? You are really funny! Or are you like Lenin, very harsh and dictatorial and will always have his way!

Yes.


But I understand, Lenny, because David is a direct descendant of Stalin and if you are not careful with him then he will bring Red Slavery to the United States! And you will be in shackles! So be ready to fight and insult and put down everyone on this list in order to save america from Communism!

Finally, you get a point! But I disagree, for those like me, and probably you, there will be no shackles, just a quick dirt nap. And I don't know jack about Russ Limbaugh, at least for the last 10 years. But I'll bet you listen to that other hater, Savage, at least once a week, no, make it three times a month. Come on, you can tell me. Nobody watching but us penguins.

[Valley Oak]

I have heard of a commentator called 'Savage.' I don't know what to think about anyone who gives themselves a nickname like that. I did read his commentary once online, reproaching a candidate for being a third party spoiler in an election for the Senate and that he could care less if that idiot (the spoiler candidate) rimmed him everyday.

I also read, within the same column, that it was racist for white people to find it erotic that a black man have sex with their wives. There is some kind of a trend going on in the underworld sex scene where a 'cuckold' is the new rage in some places; that is what Savage was commenting on.

But aside from those charming statements I read that day, I never listen or read anything else Savage says.

Kisses,

Edward


Yes.

Finally, you get a point! But I disagree, for those like me, and probably you, there will be no shackles, just a quick dirt nap. And I don't know jack about Russ Limbaugh, at least for the last 10 years. But I'll bet you listen to that other hater, Savage, at least once a week, no, make it three times a month. Come on, you can tell me. Nobody watching but us penguins.

[babaruss]

[quote=Valley Oak;57701]Russ, this is fascinating.

"What was your personal view on religion while you were raising your kids?
Has that view changed? Or what is it now?"

At that time I was vehemently opposed to religion.
I still oppose religion, but have learned to let others sort out their own ideas about the value of religion... sans my bias.
I do try to find what the original teaching was all about (before a series of what I percieve to be opportunists, came along and corrupted the teaching).
I examine what I find (in what I hope to be an original teaching) for whatever ideas it holds which will further my spiritual growth.
There is no way of knowing that a real truth is to be found in what I examine, or if I'll correctly understand what it is I find.
If I learn nothing, o.k.
If I find something I determine is woth considering then at the very least I'll have a couple new ideas to try out.
Trying new ideas out, discarding ideas which are no longer useful .....repeat process until death puts a stop to it.
Not much of a game plan, but it's what I'm doing today
Russ

[Valley Oak]

That's really cool.

I remember being vehemently against religion as well but I am more tolerant today. Essentially, like you I continue to be against religion but my mind has opened up a bit. I don't pay much attention to the ideologies but I do enjoy the 'community' that the Pagans and Unitarians have to offer. The only group of folks that I've heard might also be interesting to hang out with are the Quakers but I've never had the chance and I'm probably not going to go out of my way to check them out.

For me, religion and religious groups are less about philosophy than it is about developing a social life. But curiously, it is precisely because of the high level of tolerance and acceptance of diversity of both the Pagans and the Unitarians that has attracted me to them.

I have already found my truth as an atheist but I can learn and appreciate anything that life has to gift me with.

Thanks again,

Edward


[quote=Valley Oak;57701]Russ, this is fascinating.

"What was your personal view on religion while you were raising your kids?
Has that view changed? Or what is it now?"

At that time I was vehemently opposed to religion.
I still oppose religion, but have learned to let others sort out their own ideas about the value of religion... sans my bias.
I do try to find what the original teaching was all about (before a series of what I percieve to be opportunists, came along and corrupted the teaching).
I examine what I find (in what I hope to be an original teaching) for whatever ideas it holds which will further my spiritual growth.
There is no way of knowing that a real truth is to be found in what I examine, or if I'll correctly understand what it is I find.
If I learn nothing, o.k.
If I find something I determine is woth considering then at the very least I'll have a couple new ideas to try out.
Trying new ideas out, discarding ideas which are no longer useful .....repeat process until death puts a stop to it.
Not much of a game plan, but it's what I'm doing today
Russ

[Reportanddeport]

Michael Savage is a Conservative, radio, talk show host on KNEW, 910 AM, from 3-6 p.m., Mon-Fri. He also had a short-lived TV show on MSNBC. He was fired by MSNBC for telling a caller that he hoped he got AIDS and died.

Savage's real last name is "Weiner". He made the stage name, "Savage", and I guess it reflects his view of America and the world, which I strongly agree with. In the 60s, Savage hung out with people like Jerry Rubin, Abbie Hoffman, and various leftist, scumbags in San Francisco. He also was a perpetual student, and he has Bachelor Degrees, a Master's Degree and a Ph.D.

Savage used to be VERY good, because he would tell it like it is, without worrying about political correctness. And he would, and still does, deliver the most vile poison on people who deserve it.

But over the past year, I've been losing my respect and admiration for him. I think he is starting to get Alzheimer's, because he is doing more ranting than making sense. He too often screams at people and puts them down, instead of dealing with the facts and letting the facts speak for themselves. He also is rather obsessed with himself, and talks relentlessly about his accomplishments and has nonsensical and hateful names for other, competitor, talk show hosts.

On Friday, he spent the whole show talking about Bernie Ward, and what a creep and loser and child molester he is. Of course, I agree with him on that, but I thought 2 or 3 hours of bashing someone is tacky and tasteless, and is not becoming of a Conservative.

On January 17 of this year, he had Sylvester Stallone on his show, and talked about what a great hero and patriot Rambo is. BUT, last year, Stallone was in MEXICO CITY, denouncing American attempts to secure the border, build the wall and deal with the illegal alien problem. At that point, I became an instant Stallone hater. So when, Savage had him on the show, my respect for Savage plummeted.

This sucking up to a phony like Stallone made Savage a hypocrite in my eyes, because Savage had always denounced illegal immigration and had always supported the building of the wall.

I met Savage a few times at my former work place, and I even put a parking ticket on his Ferrari. I recognized him, shook his hand and got to pet his dog. Savage is very friendly and charismatic person IN PERSON, but I know him best through his radio show. And his show is almost not worth listening to any more.



I have heard of a commentator called 'Savage.' I don't know what to think about anyone who gives themselves a nickname like that. I did read his commentary once online, reproaching a candidate for being a third party spoiler in an election for the Senate and that he could care less if that idiot (the spoiler candidate) rimmed him everyday.

I also read, within the same column, that it was racist for white people to find it erotic that a black man have sex with their wives. There is some kind of a trend going on in the underworld sex scene where a 'cuckold' is the new rage in some places; that is what Savage was commenting on.

But aside from those charming statements I read that day, I never listen or read anything else Savage says.

Kisses,

Edward

[Lenny]

Lenny,
I have no idea what led you to write so viciously.
I responded in good faith to what I reasonably took to be a mutually respectful, genuinely curious inquiry about how I reconcile Marx and Chrsitianity.
You slammed back up with a scurrilous, hateful trashing.
Had I realized how hatefully you actually intended your questions, I would never have offered up cherished values and convictions for the sneering personal bashing that you dealt out.
Apparently you are extremely bitter. Apparently you imagine that entitles you to hatefully ambush and bash an utter stranger. as an outlet and scapegoat for that bitterness.
How dare you? What gratuitously ugly, hateful, twisted conduct. Morally, you had absolutely zero right to do that.
Worse yet, you're pouring that poison into a world where my child and alot of other innocent, impressionable children have to survive. Thanks so much for polluting their world even worse than you found it. For what? To regurgitate the fatuous bromides of Eric Hoeffer? To spew a series of dogmatic attacks on imaginary targets that bear zero resemblance to the cartoon figures you've substituted for them?
I have to conclude you are tormented in some very sad way, that prompted you to act as you did. I am sorry for whatever abuse or injury reduced you to such a miserable state. But you have a responsiblity to recognize that your actions are harmful, and do something to stop yourself.
Don't drag me into your perversely abusive games again.

Sorry your feelings were hurt. It's to bad. If you read my response to you, you may find that I was attempting to respond piece to piece, until you said something about "dialectical materialism" and more Marxian crap. Your feelings aside, your belief system is nothing more than your mouthing "Christian religion" to foist your political agenda on folks. You get into the door with that, "Hey, I'm a christian too" and then slip the position into their Kool-aid. I was born in and grew up near Rev. Jim Jones and had friends go down in Guyana. There was no "hateful trashing" you felt from me. You just felt your own towards me. But if you felt wrath, then you are not too far off the mark. It was disrespect and disdain that I projected. But feelings aside, you can not refute what I posted in any real way. And I didn't really loose it UNTIL that point in your letter regarding Marx and your "feelings" for his work.
A real communist I can respect. Their position allows them to come out and say that they are atheists. Not MUCH respect, but at least they promulgate their notions of slavery from a solid point. The sheeps clothing you don deserves no respect, and as a recent hero of mine stated, "Goddamn America means that there are some things that God hates about America", and what you put out there for God's children is one of them.
If your "cherished beliefs" cannot stand the harsh light of the sun, then you may consider reviewing the apologetics that underpin them.
As for my moral beliefs, again you miss the mark. It is my duty to oppose, absolutely oppose, what you are attempting to do to people in your enslavement of religion and Marx. Every and any notion of Marx has NO moral basis to it, other than self serving, expedient, and convenient to the moment. So please, as you attempt to take the moral high ground of "victim", be advised, there is nothing beneath you to hold you up.
There is an "Ignore List" on this website, and I wish there was a tracking list, as the crap you are attempting to promulgate should be stopped at every minor point I've not the time, and you are to long winded and full of yourself to measure up to, but I look forward to your posts, just for sport. You may be a fine human being, and your belief system is really not worth :2cents:

[Peace Seeker]

Lenny,

You really pile it on, apparently grasping for some kind of catharsis through constructing a fictional substitute for me, which corresponds to some pre-conceived internal nightmare, which you hate and fear as your "nemesis", and then unloading rage at that fictional projection, but calling it me.

In spite of your repeated ballistic accusations, you don't and can't know what my belief system is. We have not discussed it enough for you to know. For example you cited Rev. Wright as "one of your heroes". I am pretty certain he includes at least as much Marxist perspective with his Christian spirituality as I set out, when I attempted to explain my views to you. I can't tell you whether my convictions and Rev. Wrights differ or coincide, because I haven't studied his writing. You could not possibly know whether or how my views and his coincide or differ, from our very limited exchange.

Yes, I would prefer that you place me on your ignore list. I want to be able to express my concerns and views here, and discuss them with others, without being attacked violently, publicly and hatefully. This exchange of ours will not in any way assist anyone to find remedies for prejudice -- except perhaps as a somewhat anomalous specimen of religious prejudice. I think we've presented enough already to serve that purpose.

Perhaps somehow, some time, we will encounter each other under different circumstances, and interact in a non-damaging way -- maybe even do something constructive together.

I don't want people to drag this out with further bystander comments -- whether you agree with me or sympathize with me, or otherwise.
Please see if you can find something to say that addresses sources of prejudice and remedies for it. And please fucking drop this nasty battle between me and Lenny -- don't pretend you're using my exchange with Lenny as a "case study", in order to dump further personal attacks, ridicule or destructive wrangling onto this thread. (I've seen that happen here already, so I'm mentioning it clearly.)

If you want to do something responsible and helpful for either me or Lenny, in response to our argument, do it privately, and off this thread.

David Hoffman

[Lenny]

[quote=Peace Seeker;58449]Lenny, You really pile it on, apparently grasping for some kind of catharsis through constructing a fictional substitute for me, which corresponds to some pre-conceived internal nightmare, which you hate and fear as your "nemesis", and then unloading rage at that fictional projection, but calling it me.[quote=Peace Seeker;58449]

No, it is not as simple as all that. You see, you wish to have folks buy into something that is bad. Why is it so wrong that you are opposed, or some one passionately disagrees? If you found me molesting a child or in the act of murder, would you not oppose me?

[quote] In spite of your repeated ballistic accusations, you don't and can't know what my belief system is. We have not discussed it enough for you to know. For example you cited Rev. Wright as "one of your heroes". I am pretty certain he includes at least as much Marxist perspective with his Christian spirituality as I set out, when I attempted to explain my views to you. I can't tell you whether my convictions and Rev. Wrights differ or coincide, because I haven't studied his writing. You could not possibly know whether or how my views and his coincide or differ, from our very limited exchange. [quote]

Well, I have to wonder about a few things. You are probably right, as Rev Wright has some Marxist notion, since he mixes the word "Black" with "Liberation Theology". Maybe you do not know about "Liberation Theology"? Their background or history? Their origin a' la' Marx? Or read about the blood shed that brings disgrace to those that have some notion of religion? Many around us condemn Christianity for blood shed of 100, 300, a thousand years ago, but few condemn it for what has happened since "Liberation Theology" took root in the 60's in South and Central America! Certainly not the Marxists, who condemned religion for what happened in the far past by pointing to century old historys. As "Liberation Theology" is a syncretical mix of the teachings of Jesus with Marx from the 1960s, with the outcome being the WORST form of "religion" or way for any individual or group of people to live.


Yes, I would prefer that you place me on your ignore list. I want to be able to express my concerns and views here, and discuss them with others, without being attacked violently, publicly and hatefully. This exchange of ours will not in any way assist anyone to find remedies for prejudice -- except perhaps as a somewhat anomalous specimen of religious prejudice. I think we've presented enough already to serve that purpose.
Perhaps somehow, some time, we will encounter each other under different circumstances, and interact in a non-damaging way -- maybe even do something constructive together.
I don't want people to drag this out with further bystander comments -- whether you agree with me or sympathize with me, or otherwise.
Please see if you can find something to say that addresses sources of prejudice and remedies for it. And please fucking drop this nasty battle between me and Lenny -- don't pretend you're using my exchange with Lenny as a "case study", in order to dump further personal attacks, ridicule or destructive wrangling onto this thread. (I've seen that happen here already, so I'm mentioning it clearly.)
If you want to do something responsible and helpful for either me or Lenny, in response to our argument, do it privately, and off this thread.
David Hoffman

Wow, I am surprised at your language! But not really.
As for the "hatred", please, once again, that is the mirror in your heart. One of the issues put out by the media regarding Rev Wright was his "hatred" of whites. Do you think he hated folks that happened to be white? or just white folks? He had them sitting in his congregation, no? Sorry, but I've never said, "I hate you", what I did say is that your belief system has no respect coming, is disdainful, and not worthy of merit. You are probably a fine person, trying to do what you think is right and good. Yeah for you, the man, you are as OK as the next. What you teach, preach and otherwise promulgate is damnable. Now if what you see is hate, then it is not me that sees it, nor from me it comes. Check yourself. I don't know you! So how can I "hate" you?
Well, David, I am sure if we meet in person we could have some laughs, some coffee, a passionate explanation and clarification of what we believe. But let us not hold our breath. As for personal attacks on you or me, how can they hurt or help, as they don't know US. Only the things we stand for, no? And if they wish to do that, then that IS the purpose of this site. The ad hominums suck major, though I am at fault at times for falling into that as well. Let us all stick to the issue, not the person.
It is not the hand we holler at, it is the moon. We agree: this is over.

PS: except for the cool QUOTE box which SOMETIMES I can get and other times NOT. Boo hoo.

[Peace Seeker]

Dear readers of this thread:

Please do both Lenny and me a favor: Don't offer further responses or comments about Lenny's WaccoBB posts to me or about me, or about my WaccoBB posts to Lenny or about Lenny.

If you think I am making some serious mistake in requesting this moratorium, or if you think I'm inflicting an injustice of any kind on Lenny, please write to me privately about that concern.

I think if Lenny and I prolong our conflict, it could seriously harm both of us. I think it's time to let that conflict fade away.

Please let that happen.

David Hoffman

<o:p></o:p>

[theindependenteye]

>>The Turd World is full of crude, cruel, uncivilized and barbaric practices, and for me to fail to express my true attitude towards it would not make the Turd World better...

Friends--

I agree with Report on this, up to the point that my mindless liberal bias allows me to. The examples he lists could be multiplied much further.

What flows from that? Taken at a literal level, it's only saying there are horrible living conditions, horrible traditional practices, crime and cruelty in the world beyond Sonoma County and the civilized parts of America. Various answers are proposed: more foreign aid, more missions, more free trade, more bombs, or more barriers to keep us in and them out.

I'm not qualified to argue what should or shouldn't be done about the vast gap in wealth between our (alas, sickening) economy and the devastation of the post-colonial world. But what I see in the daily news is a gradual acceptance of the notion that all the inhabitants of the Turd World are, in fact, shit.

In our own military tactics, and in those of Israel, the possibility of assassinating one insurgency leader totally justifies any degree of "collateral damage," even if that means 20 civilians; precisely the same is true of the insurgents. Only difference seems to be that we "express regrets" and they don't -- to me, "regrets" are shit. We blame the insurgency for putting their own people at risk -- and yes, I believe they do, but it's my tax dollars buying those bombs. Would we drop bombs into Santa Rosa on questionable information that a gang leader was hiding in a particular house? (Well, yes, that did happen in Philadelphia, when the police bombed the MOVE house and leveled two city blocks, but it was, after all, in North Philly, kinda part of Turd World West.)

I'm not at all suggesting that Report is characterizing his in-laws in the Philippines as worthy of extermination if our anti-terrorist measures target their city block. But as we start phrasing the rest of the world as a dung heap, it's a very short step to regarding the rest of the world's human beings as expendable garbage. I'm not speaking of personal attitudes; I'm speaking of federal foreign policy.

I guess I have a much lower expectation of human beings than most people, and so I tend to regard the litany of atrocity as just par for the course, and take enormous delight in every human action that's filled with joy, beauty & generosity. Even Hitler may have had beautiful ears. And while I'm pretty protective of my own ass & wallet, I'm more inclined, as the Quakers say, to look for "that of God" in people. Paradoxically, I don't believe vile behavior is natural to the human race; mostly it's induced by conditions of economics & power structures & perceived threat. We live by symbol: that's both our gift and our fatal flaw.

However, YMMV.

Peace--
Conrad

[MsTerry]

David,

You once again are overstepping your boundaries.
You have the right to pull out of a conversation graciously, but please let Lenny and others decide for themselves!
You do not know what is good for Lenny or anybody else that you haven't met. If you want to solve this conflict in private with Lenny, that is great, but please don't decide for others what is harmful for them, it comes across as condescending.


Dear readers of this thread:

Please do both Lenny and me a favor: Don't offer further responses or comments about Lenny's WaccoBB posts to me or about me, or about my WaccoBB posts to Lenny or about Lenny.

If you think I am making some serious mistake in requesting this moratorium, or if you think I'm inflicting an injustice of any kind on Lenny, please write to me privately about that concern.

I think if Lenny and I prolong our conflict, it could seriously harm both of us. I think it's time to let that conflict fade away.

Please let that happen.

David Hoffman

<o:p></o:p>

[MsTerry]

Taken at a literal level, it's only saying there are horrible living conditions, horrible traditional practices, crime and cruelty in the world beyond Sonoma County and the civilized parts of America.
Conrad

First, Conrad, which parts of America do you consider civilized?
Second, how many countries have you visited and experienced the things you describe?
Third, are there no more " crude, cruel, uncivilized and barbaric practices," in the USA?

[babaruss]

[quote=Paradoxically, I don't believe vile behavior is natural to the human race; mostly it's induced by conditions of economics & power structures & perceived threat.=]

Exactly the thought I have been trying to convey.
Enviornmental conditioning can easily cloud and distort people's natural desires to live peacefully. I'm making a huge assumption here re: 'natural desires'. I believe it is not our primary instinct which causes us to rape, rob, murder etc.
Russ

[MsTerry]

.
Enviornmental conditioning can easily cloud and distort people's natural desires to live peacefully. I'm making a huge assumption here re: 'natural desires'. I believe it is not our primary instinct which causes us to rape, rob, murder etc.
Russ

I have to disagree with you Russ,
Not only are 'rape, rob, murder' judgmental, they are also a product of rules to govern and civilize a society.
Before we had an organized society, the cavemen had made it part of his daily life 'to rape, rob, murder', except that it didn't have the stigma of it being bad attached to it. It was part of survival

[handy]

David,

You once again are overstepping your boundaries.
You have the right to pull out of a conversation graciously, but please let Lenny and others decide for themselves!
You do not know what is good for Lenny or anybody else that you haven't met. If you want to solve this conflict in private with Lenny, that is great, but please don't decide for others what is harmful for them, it comes across as condescending.

I agree. And I repeat:

Democracy deserves what it tolerates.

Tolerance is a function of perceived superiority.
Distasteful at best...

[Braggi]

...
Before we had an organized society, the cavemen had made it part of his daily life 'to rape, rob, murder', except that it didn't have the stigma of it being bad attached to it. It was part of survival

There is no evidence to support that and I think it's untrue. Partnership and friendship are much better survival skills than robbing and murder. It is against the "gut instinct" to even hurt an animal for food let alone kill another human. Why do you think the military spends so much time conditioning the humanity out of soldiers before sending them to war? Aboriginal tribes have many ritualized trainings that teach young men to get over their revulsion at killing animals for food.

Dare I suggest looking to the Hebrew Bible for all the times "God" told the Hebrew soldiers to kill their enemies? First the native peoples had to be defined, not only as enemies of the Hebrews, but as enemies of "God." (Kind of like now.) What the Hebrews actually wanted to do was party with the locals which the Levites (the scribes who wrote the Bible) railed against throughout the old books. But mysterious messages from "God" ordered the destruction of city after city and if the Hebrews didn't comply they were put to death by their own kinsman. That's how severely and savagely the soldiers had to be threatened before they would fight and kill their neighbors.

It's not natural to rape, murder and rob. You'll find no evidence supporting that assertion.

-Jeff

[Braggi]

...
Tolerance is a function of perceived superiority.
Distasteful at best...

That is, as has been stated previously, your own definition and isn't supported by dictionaries or by anyone I know.

-Jeff

[MsTerry]

well, if you believe in evolution and see how animals "rape, murder and rob", it is only logical to conclude that we came from the same line of survival.
The words 'rape, murder and rob', have a sentiment attached to it, that you wouldn't use if you see a wild animal do it.
You have to establish an ownership to things that aren't really yours to begin with to be able to say you were robbed.
Who is the owner of the Earth and all of it's resources anyway?

When a country goes to war and takes away land, has sex with their women and kills most of the natives, we don't call it 'rape, murder and rob', no we call it the good old USA


There is no evidence to support that and I think it's untrue. Partnership and friendship are much better survival skills than robbing and murder. It is against the "gut instinct" to even hurt an animal for food let alone kill another human. Why do you think the military spends so much time conditioning the humanity out of soldiers before sending them to war? Aboriginal tribes have many ritualized trainings that teach young men to get over their revulsion at killing animals for food.

Dare I suggest looking to the Hebrew Bible for all the times "God" told the Hebrew soldiers to kill their enemies? First the native peoples had to be defined, not only as enemies of the Hebrews, but as enemies of "God." (Kind of like now.) What the Hebrews actually wanted to do was party with the locals which the Levites (the scribes who wrote the Bible) railed against throughout the old books. But mysterious messages from "God" ordered the destruction of city after city and if the Hebrews didn't comply they were put to death by their own kinsman. That's how severely and savagely the soldiers had to be threatened before they would fight and kill their neighbors.

It's not natural to rape, murder and rob. You'll find no evidence supporting that assertion.

-Jeff

[Braggi]

well, if you believe in evolution and see how animals "rape, murder and rob", it is only logical to conclude that we came from the same line of survival.
...

Gorillas rape, murder and rob. Bonobos don't. We are much more closely linked to bonobos, genetically and socially, than gorillas, thankfully.

Gorillas, BTW, have the smallest penises compared to body size of any primate. Bonobos and humans are much better endowed. I think is is not a coincidence that humans, in a natural setting, behave more like bonobos than gorillas.

-Jeff

[Zeno Swijtink]

Gorillas rape, murder and rob. Bonobos don't. We are much more closely linked to bonobos, genetically and socially, than gorillas, thankfully.

Gorillas, BTW, have the smallest penises compared to body size of any primate. Bonobos and humans are much better endowed. I think is is not a coincidence that humans, in a natural setting, behave more like bonobos than gorillas.

-Jeff

I thought this quote from an article in American Scientist "The Brutal Ape vs. the Sexy Ape?" was amusing. Apparently some of the myths surrounding bonobos is based on comparing captive bonobos with chimpanzees in the wild.

"And are bonobos entirely peace-loving? About half of all the intercommunity encounters seen by Kano's team involved aggression of some sort. The difference between chimpanzee aggression and bonobo aggression is that bonobo attacks and injuries are often directed by females at males, rather than the reverse as in chimpanzees. There are even reports from zoos of female bonobos brutalizing a male so badly that his penis was severed."
https://www.americanscientist.org/template/AssetDetail/assetid/14721/page/3;jsessionid=baa9...

[Braggi]

... The difference between chimpanzee aggression and bonobo aggression is that bonobo attacks and injuries are often directed by females at males, rather than the reverse as in chimpanzees. There are even reports from zoos of female bonobos brutalizing a male so badly that his penis was severed."
...

... reports from zoos...

Zeno, that doesn't sound like bonobos in the wild. I don't have time to read the article right now, but I hate it if you've burst my bubble. I've always wanted to come back as a bonobo (on another planet, of course, since they're approaching extinction here). I like the fantasy of solving social problems with orgies.

-Jeff