Be counted for humane tolerance

[Melodymama]

Zeno shares a report" There are even reports from zoos of female bonobos brutalizing a male so badly that his penis was severed."
https://www.americanscientist.org/template/AssetDetail/assetid/14721/page/3;jsessionid=baa9"

Well, obviously, they were getting into the stage of evolution that is Women's Liberation. Or, maybe they ate the wrong plants and were in a frenzy of penis envy. Who knows.

The fact is, we ARE smarter and can be in control of our impulses, despite genetics and upbringing. We are capable of being kinder and more thoughtful in our actions. Studying others is great for information and understanding, but it is not an excuse for humans to be brutal. We can take responsibility. And we can change ourselves when we choose to. Why don't you guys get together over tea or a beer and talk this all out and let us know the result? Laura

[babaruss]

I have to disagree with you Russ,
Not only are 'rape, rob, murder' judgmental, they are also a product of rules to govern and civilize a society.
Before we had an organized society, the cavemen had made it part of his daily life 'to rape, rob, murder', except that it didn't have the stigma of it being bad attached to it. It was part of survival

Are you telling me that 'to rape, rob, and murder' is the natural order of things human !
If that's the case...why bother being uspet when such things happen ?
May as well add such doings to a list which includes avalanches, mud slides, and earth quakes.
Call them acts of God right thereby needless punishment for those poor souls who are just following an inborn 'survivalist hand book' (when they rape, rob, and do murder).
Russ

Just trying to understand.
Russ

[Zeno Swijtink]

... reports from zoos...

Zeno, that doesn't sound like bonobos in the wild. I don't have time to read the article right now, but I hate it if you've burst my bubble. I've always wanted to come back as a bonobo (on another planet, of course, since they're approaching extinction here). I like the fantasy of solving social problems with orgies.

-Jeff

You must be of a further step in the human evolution, still a rare bird?

[Braggi]

You must be of a further step in the human evolution, still a rare bird?

Not as rare as you might think.

Google polyamory, the lifestyle, or swinging and you'll see a lot of bonobos out there.

-Jeff

PS. No, I'm not a swinger.

[Peace Seeker]

GOOD NEWS BULLETIN:

Peoples' recent discussion here regarding primate sexuality and aggression, Humanity's evolutionary legacy, and and the significance of polyamory -- has just converged with a major breakthrough advancing social inclusion, acceptance of diveristy, and the elimination of prejudice:


CALIFORNIA SUPREMES RULE:
BAN AGAINST SAME-SEX MARRIAGES
VIOLATES STATE CONSTITUTION


California Supreme Court
Rules in Marriage Cases



Press Release
California Judicial Council
(office of the state courts)
May 15, 2008


"San Francisco — The California Supreme Court today held that the California legislative and initiative measures limiting marriage to opposite-sex couples violate the state constitutional rights of same-sex couples and may not be used to preclude same-sex couples from marrying. (In re Marriage Cases, S147999.)"

For the full CJC press release, including analysis of the decision, go to:
https://www.courtinfo.ca.gov/presscenter/newsreleases/NR26-08.PDF


To read the full text of the Calif. Supreme Court's decision (PDF format), go to:

In re Marriage Cases, Docket No. S147999 (Calif. Supreme Court, May 15, 2008)

https://www.courtinfo.ca.gov/opinions/documents/S147999.PDF

Excerpt (emphasis added):

"The substantive right of two adults who share a loving relationship to join together to establish an officially recognized family of their own — and, if the couple chooses, to raise children within that family — constitutes a vitally important attribute of the fundamental interest in liberty and personal autonomy that the California Constitution secures to all persons for the benefit of both the individual and society.

"Furthermore, in contrast to earlier times, our state now recognizes that an individual’s capacity to establish a loving and long-term committed relationship with another person and responsibly to care for and raise children does not depend upon the individual’s sexual orientation, and, more generally, that an individual’s sexual orientation — like a person’s race or gender — does not constitute a legitimate basis upon which to deny or withhold legal rights.

"We therefore conclude that in view of the substance and significance of the fundamental constitutional right to form a family relationship, the California Constitution properly must be interpreted to guarantee this basic civil right to all Californians, whether gay[, lesbian] or heterosexual, and to same-sex couples as well as to opposite-sex couples."

[MsTerry]

Are you telling me that 'to rape, rob, and murder' is the natural order of things human !
If that's the case...why bother being uspet when such things happen ?

Russ

Just trying to understand.
Russ
We are conditioned into following certain rules and expectations in order to be more comfortable and to feel safe around each other.
So what is murder?
Is it just the mere act of killing someone?
I am sure you are able to sum up numerous acts of killing someone and not consider it murder. So then what is murder?
A child is brought up to learn the difference between good and bad, and the older they get, the more they see that there is more grey area than good or bad. Even what appears to be bad at one point can turn out to be very good in the long run. (someone getting very sick and finding a cure for that condition)
Does a child have an innate sense to not kill? At what point does the child think it is not OK? what if the parents teach them it is OK? how many will revolt against that?
'to not rape, rob, and murder' is a social conditioning, just like we have laws that change and are adjusted, we also change our mores and morals.(Gay marriage legalized in California !!! (https://www.waccobb.net/forums/showthread.php?t=36182))
Why would we write "thou shall not kill" as if it was coming from God, if it was already part of our make-up?

Being upset is an emotion that usually follows when our expectations or projections aren't met. So in a way you are right, why be upset about anything?

[babaruss]

[quote=MsTerry;58856]....So in a way you are right, why be upset about anything? =quote]

So it's down to : "Nothing is real...nothing to get hung about,...strawberry fields for ever".

Or maybe it's like the monk who came running in to his master to tell the master that his son was just killed.
The Master upon hearing this, wept, groaned loudly, and rolled on the floor, in abject misery over the loss of his only son.
The monk said to the master.."but I thought you said everything is an illusion".
To which the master responded: "yes...but this is very heavy illusion".
are
Guess that too would make it o.k. to rape, rob, and kill, because it isn't real.
Why get upset about such things..after all it's only an illusion.

If it is also 'natural' for us rape, rob, and do murder then why should we
bother with changing ourselves ?

I'd think I'd rather consider that the idea to not rape, rob, and do murder, is more of the same...ie; evolution.
I suspect that evolution just continues merry along it's way, and we humans are included in that process...regardless of what we think, say, and do.
Russ

[Peace Seeker]

These discussions about metaphysics, and about the nature and sources of human morality and standards of conduct are very interesting to me.

I still would like to explore the problem of prejudice on this thread, with other concerned readers. I will post some material directly pertinent to understanding and remedying prejudice. I invite others to comment.

David Hoffman

[Peace Seeker]

I believe that what author Arne Fritzson says here about church congregations applies to every sort of social group.




On Social Exclusion
(Excerpt from article by Arne Fritzson)

The problem is not how to include people whose way of being, think and feeling are the same in a community. The challenge is to go beyond the framework that gives us a feeling of security, to see that people with different experiences have a contribution.

When you feel an exclusion, when one’s knowledge and experiences are not respected and you are not given a real opportunity, one can experience pain. That pain hurts even if it was not given with intent. If someone were to step on your toes when you are standing in a queue it is probably by accident. That person tells you that they are sorry and you understand that it was not their intention. Even so you have to live with the pain for a while. But you might have a bad day and someone else steps on your toe.

The pain increases in spite of the fact that, that persons had no ill intentions whatsoever. If this happens many times you finally lose patience and scream: "Watch out!" It is no longer possible to smile and say that it does not matter. It does not matter that you do understand that no one had the intention to hurt you. It hurt so much you had to express what you feel.

In order to get a better knowledge about its’ own body a congregation has to see which factors work towards exclusion for different persons. We have to be open and see our own prejudices. That means that it is not enough to make small changes on the surface but to a deep consideration of our way of looking at each other. It is an act of love to include your fellow [people] in the community.


– From Arne Fritzson, “One Body? Church, Disability and Credibility,” EDAN Newsletter

Full article available on line -- included in complete EDAN journal, at: https://www.wcc-coe.org/wcc/what/jpc/edan-news.pdf (https://www.wcc-coe.org/wcc/what/jpc/edan-news.pdf)

EDAN is a quarterly publication of the World Council of Churches Programme on Persons with Disabilities. EDAN is published in Nairobi, Kenya.

[Lenny]

There is no evidence to support that and I think it's untrue. Partnership and friendship are much better survival skills than robbing and murder. It is against the "gut instinct" to even hurt an animal for food let alone kill another human. Why do you think the military spends so much time conditioning the humanity out of soldiers before sending them to war? Aboriginal tribes have many ritualized trainings that teach young men to get over their revulsion at killing animals for food.

Dare I suggest looking to the Hebrew Bible for all the times "God" told the Hebrew soldiers to kill their enemies? First the native peoples had to be defined, not only as enemies of the Hebrews, but as enemies of "God." (Kind of like now.) What the Hebrews actually wanted to do was party with the locals which the Levites (the scribes who wrote the Bible) railed against throughout the old books. But mysterious messages from "God" ordered the destruction of city after city and if the Hebrews didn't comply they were put to death by their own kinsman. That's how severely and savagely the soldiers had to be threatened before they would fight and kill their neighbors.It's not natural to rape, murder and rob. You'll find no evidence supporting that assertion.-Jeff

Can't quite agree here, ol' boy. Seems babies have no capacity to understand complex issues, so when siblings, parents, others, etc. remove the pleasure object, the capacity to anger, hate, and therefore to kill become apparent. It is a primitive approach and I must agree with Ms Terry.
Furthermore, another way of reading that old book is to think of Abraham and his few family members living as nomads, accounting for nothing to no one, and because of "whatever" they decided to move into cities, or become civilized or expand their tribe, or what ever one may call it, so there had to be some rules: 10 for the basic. That does not stop them from killing "the other" outside their tribe. That's OK, condoned, and found beneficial (economic conditions, resources, etc) but WITHIN the tribe, no murdering allowed is one of the 10 Recommendations (free will is also a bugger). Thus we are conditioned!
Consider the other tribes now, and one may see they are conditioned that it is all right to kill. We are not that far behind our own damn selves.

[Lenny]

Are you telling me that 'to rape, rob, and murder' is the natural order of things human !
If that's the case...why bother being uspet when such things happen ?
May as well add such doings to a list which includes avalanches, mud slides, and earth quakes.
Call them acts of God right thereby needless punishment for those poor souls who are just following an inborn 'survivalist hand book' (when they rape, rob, and do murder). Just trying to understand. Russ

The "upset" is the conditioning, and that is a "good" thing, if one may be so judgmental. You wish to live WITHIN a group and therefore "give up" or even sublimate such impulses, and part of that is being upset. Without that, and Justice, we would be tribes brutalizing each other, as in "the good ole' days".
However we can alter our behavior and thoughts thus reaffirming the goodness of our selves, collectively and individually. We get upset at the atrocities of a single person that violates our code.
We can't do that with mudslides and quakes. Then we may seek answers outside of ourselves for "correct-ability". And in so doing we discover how to build better buildings and divert water so there won't be a slide next season, if we get any rain at all!

[Peace Seeker]

Here is another piece of significant information about prejudice and its remedies:



Whitehouse Envoy 'Welcomes' Inclusion of US
in UN's Global Racism Probe,
but Denies any 'Real Problem'

__________


U.S. Welcomes U.N. Investigator's
Racism Probe


By Louis Charbonneau and Cynthia Osterman
Reuters News Service
May 19, 2008


Full article on line at: https://www.reuters.com/article/newsOne/idUSN1956434320080519?sp=true (https://www.reuters.com/article/newsOne/idUSN1956434320080519?sp=true)
Excerpt:


"The U.S. envoy to the United Nations on Monday[, May 19, 2008] welcomed the visit of a special U.N. human rights investigator to probe racism but said the Human Rights Council should focus on 'real problems' elsewhere.


"The United Nations has said Doudou Diene will meet federal and local officials, lawmakers and judicial authorities during his visit, which runs from [May 20, 2008 to June 6, 2008]. The focus of the visit is racism, which has become an issue in this year's U.S. presidential election campaign.

<CENTER>[ ... ]</CENTER><CENTER></CENTER>"Diene's three-week visit, officially sanctioned by the U.S. government, will cover eight cities -- Washington, New York, Chicago, Omaha, Los Angeles, New Orleans, Miami and San Juan, Puerto Rico.


"Diene, a Senegalese lawyer who has served in the independent post since 2002, will report his findings to the U.N. Human Rights Council [in 2009]. ... The United States is not among the 47 member states of the Geneva-based forum, but has observer status."



NOTE:
It's significant and troubling that -- in US political culture -- a 3-week visit by a major World figure to the US, extending a Global probe of Racism to include our society -- and to invite reportage by concerned US residents -- gets virtually zero mainstream US press attention. Our mainstream media are more interested in Tom Cruise's dirty underwear than in the progress and outcome of a high-ranking UN examination of Racism in our society. Is this the face we want to show the rest of the Humanity? Are those the values and priorities we want to impart to our kids?


David Hoffman
May 21, 2008



For more information:
See the Web page for the Special Rapporteur on Contemporary Forms of Racism, Racial Discrimination, Xenophobia and Related Intolerance (Office of the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights):



https://www2.ohchr.org/english/issues/racism/rapporteur/index.htm (https://www2.ohchr.org/english/issues/racism/rapporteur/index.htm)



The Special Rapporteur's Web page includes contact information and links to many relevant background documents. The link for instructions to submit individual complaints to the Special Rapporteur isn't working. However people and groups can still submit information, documents etc. to him, about racism in the U.S., since his eMail and other contact information is posted there.

__________________


Continuing Invitation:

I am interested in an ongoing discussion with concerned, humanitarian members of our local Sonoma County community, about the nature and causes of prejudice, about remedies for prejudice, and about specific actions people are taking to remedy prejudice.

I plan to pursue this topical discussion of prejudice and its remedies, independently of discussions people conduct about other topics, on this thread.

If you would like to join this discussion about prejudice and its remedies, I invite you to respond here, or in direct correspondence with me at the following eMail address:


Al Salaam Alaykum, Shalom, Namaste, Peace



David L. Hoffman, Coordinator
Humanity Check
Interfaith Peace and Reconciliation Project
PMB 560, 122 Calistoga Road
Santa Rosa, CA 95409


[email protected] ([email protected])

[Peace Seeker]

Santa Rosa 'Christian' group
distributesAnti-Muslim slander tract
in Sebastopol

As an Evangelical Christian I was repelled and embarassed (hardly the first time, however), to learn that a supposedly "Christian" anti-Muslim hate tract was left on someone's car seat in Sebastopol last week.

The group calls itself "Truth be Told" and lists a Santa Rosa post office box. The tract is obviously one of many -- probably created by some outside organization fomenting religious prejudice: It was numbered "Islam #11" and titled "The Truth about ISLAM -- Can a Good MUSLIM Be a Good AMERICAN?"

What followed was a long series of falsehoods and miststatements about Islam and Muslims, each one supposedly "proving" that a Muslim cannot be a "Good American."

The people sneaking around, dropping this material into strangers' cars, apparently imagines that prejudice-inciting behavior somehow qualifies as being both a "Good American" and a "Good Christian."

What do WE believe would constitute a "righteous American" response to this hate tract?

For those of us who follow Christian and other Faiths (including Islam): What response would be consistent with OUR values, teachings and scriptures?

I invite others' thoughts and suggestions, either on this thread, or directly at the following eMail address:


Al Salaam Alaykum, Shalom, Namaste, Peace
David L. Hoffman, Coordinator
Humanity Check
Interfaith Peace and Reconciliation Project
PMB 560, 122 Calistoga Road
Santa Rosa, CA 95409

[email protected] ([email protected])<!-- / message --><!-- Waccco: reduce Top Margin <div style="margin-top: 10px" align="right"> -->