Speaking of PG&E Scam...Analogue Meter Users Heads-Up

[kookla]

Since analogue meters are now read every other month, PG&E bills for an estimated usage on the off month.
The estimated gas usage on my more recent bills has been ridiculously inaccurate, having nothing to do with usage in previous years, or even the baseline 2 therms/day rate the billing clerk told me they use for estimates.

This has resulted in overly high estimated usage and thus billing me at higher tier rates, which are more expensive. If the estimates were accurate, I would've been billed at the appropriate Tier 1 rate and would not have been overcharged.

On my bill, this is more an issue with gas use than electrical use.

So, take a closer look at your bills and compare your current usage to past years. It may shed light on why your PG&E bill is so high this month (or next month).

[sharingwisdom]

I agree and actually spoke to a rep about this when I was no longer being charged for not having a smartmeter (after 3 years). At first they said I could read it and were very nice about helping me get the numbers off the analog. But then they changed their policies right after thus I brought up the same point in speaking with them. They are just another rip off corporation but have some nice people working for them who are also stuck paying outrageous bills and not liking smartmeters.

Since analogue meters are now read every other month, PG&E bills for an estimated usage on the off month.
The estimated gas usage on my more recent bills has been ridiculously inaccurate, having nothing to do with usage in previous years, or even the baseline 2 therms/day rate the billing clerk told me they use for estimates.

This has resulted in overly high estimated usage and thus billing me at higher tier rates, which are more expensive. If the estimates were accurate, I would've been billed at the appropriate Tier 1 rate and would not have been overcharged.

On my bill, this is more an issue with gas use than electrical use.

So, take a closer look at your bills and compare your current usage to past years. It may shed light on why your PG&E bill is so high this month (or next month).

[Dustyg]

I've had exactly the same experience with PG&E!

I agree and actually spoke to a rep about this ...

[foxrosie]

I live in Sebastopol, and just spoke with a PG&E customer service rep on the phone about this. I was concerned about the issue raised here. What she told me was that everyone in Sebastopol who is on an Analogue meter DOES have their meter read EVERY month. This is different than in most towns/cities, where NOT having a Smart Meter designates you as an OPT-OUT customer (triggering OPT-OUT fees, and a reduction in meter-reading frequency to alternate months). Sebastopol is different because, when Smart Meters were rolled out, our town PREVENTED PG&E from installing them here. (we are special; i knew that!).

Apparently that has now changed, and you can get a Smart Meter here if you call to request one specially. This would be a "voluntary OPT-IN". But those who choose NOT to voluntarily OPT-IN are NOT designated as OPT-OUT customers. The default is different in our town ... so (currently) you can leave your analogue meter in place, and still NOT be labeled an OPT-OUT customer. Thus, your meter will still be read EVERY month. You can check your bill to see that none of the meter readings are specified as estimates.

Therefore, unless those writing on this thread do NOT live in Sebastopol (which of course could easily be the case), I am confused by the experiences they refer to. I just spent a good deal of time finding the right person at PG&E to help me figure out what's up, so I wanted to make sure that other Sebastopol residents do not have to go thru the process I just went thru.

However, here's a "heads-up": Since Sebastopol - apparently - now DOES allow Smart Meters to be installed for those who request them, PG&E may in the future change those who do NOT voluntarily OPT-IN to an OPT-OUT status ... which would trigger fees and alternate month meter readings. But there should be ample notice before they do that. Meanwhile, just make sure that your bill does NOT show "estimated" meter readings. The word "estimate" would show up near your meter reading (at least on some of your bills) if they are reading only on alternate months. I can't tell you what that looks like, cuz my bill does not show it. According to the woman I spoke with, if your Meter Reading does NOT say "estimate", then it's the actual reading for the specified month.

[kane]

I wanted to mention that I recently learned from PGE, while discussing EV charging plans, that in addition to the "Wireless" Smart Meters which transmit via RF, there are also Smart Meters which are still read by a human, involving no transmission of RF energy. The benefit over Analog may be Time of Use rates.
I hadn't heard these mentioned before by PGE, so apparently they wanted everyone on their wireless meters.

Also, remember that as Analog meters age, the bearings wear out, causing the wheel to drag ever-so-slightly, resulting in under-reporting of actual kWh used.

[Sasu]

Attached is a document by Ron Powell, PhD Ranking electric meters by risk.

I wrote this post addressing PG&E's estimated bills. https://emfsafetynetwork.org/are-pge...ting-you-more/

The CPUC decision included bi-monthly reads, which meant estimated bills. Many smart meters are still being read by meter readers, so they would be subject to estimated bills too. We complained and got a refund. This issue should be brought back to the CPUC since PG&E has made such big mistakes with their estimates.

[SonomaPatientsCoop]

While I can't speak to the specific concerns raised per se, I will make a few points.

My understanding is PG&E is not allowed by the PUC to mark up gas, only charging a profit on the costs of the delivery system (worth noting that after the San Bruno pipeline explosion PG&E has been sinking a lot of money into that transmission system).

And gas prices (on the wholesale market) have climbed 21%+ over the past year, with the bulk of that coming this winter (a 16% increase).

And finally- we've had the first really cold, gray and wet winter in what, 7 years? So both gas and electric usage has spiked for most people.

And a side note- the use of analog meters (As opposed to smart meters) is a great cost to PG&E - a cost that must be passed on. The cost of paying meter readers. The vehicles and maintence thereof that the readers need. The innefeciencies of the way the data is collected and then put in the system. The high cost of insurance for meter readers (generally any employee who regularly goes into multiple properties unnanounced on a daily basis has high premiums because of the risks of dogs (and the risk of human violence as well).

[kookla]

Thank you Sasu for sharing your post addressing PG&E's estimated bills.
The description of your billing inaccuracies precisely matches mine…and the resolution info provided is helpful.

...The CPUC decision included bi-monthly reads, which meant estimated bills. ...

[Sasu]

Regarding the cost of meter readers...In 2012 a third of smart meters (millions of meters) were still being read by meter readers. I went to the CPUC hearings and the explanation from PG&E is this: PG&E requires that at least 90% of smart meters in a particular cell (say of 500 meters) are getting data to the utility. If not, all the meters in that cell will be read by meter readers. This was a big problem for PG&E. I don't know where it stands now. Smart meters are computers inside plastic covers and the failure rates are much higher than the analogs.

And a side note- the use of analog meters (As opposed to smart meters) is a great cost to PG&E - a cost that must be passed on....

[reeta]

PG&E can change your analog meter to a time of use meter, without going wireless. No charge. They just changed mine over.

[Sasu]

The CPUC will hold a voting meeting in Santa Rosa on Thursday April 6 at 9:30 am. This is a rare event, as these meetings are usually held in San Francisco. Sign up for public comments start at 9am till 9:30am. If you arrive after 9:30, you wait till all speakers finish and the President asks is there anyone else. Speakers likely get one minute.

If you are getting higher bills because of PG&E’s bi-monthly estimated reading this is a chance to speak directly to the CPUC about it.

Thursday April 6 at 9:30 am
Santa Rosa City Hall Council Chambers
100 Santa Rosa Ave., Santa Rosa
More details: https://docs.cpuc.ca.gov/PublishedDo.../182863586.PDF

[eeeeeeow]

Just got our bill about 15 minutes ago. $478.33 for the MONTH!!! It seems impossible. Our main source of heat over the winter and currently is a wood burning stove. We have a propane tank. We checked for water leaks to see if it was the pump. It wasn't. We've gone all over the system and cannot figure this out other than to agree with those who have concluded that PG&E is, literally robbing people. After I write this, I am writing every state representative I can dig up. It's disgusting and warrants a class action. Anyone know an independent usage analyst who can come to our property to investigate? I doubt I'm the only one who would benefit from a service like that. BTW, I do not have a so-called "smart" meter.

[BobHeisler]

I agree. The gas portion of my P G & E bills in January and February were outrageous...over $200 for gas use alone. Granted, I was home a lot and my elderly parents were visiting me, but I had never had a combined bill more than about $160 to $170 before and each of those months exceeded $300. What made me suspicious was the fact that there was only a modest drop in usage in March, yet my entire bill was in the $130s. I believe that having a former P G & E executive heading the California PUC has been a pass for P G & E to pull whatever crap they want to!

[tommy]

I think the reason some do not want Smart meters, is that they transmit data by RF (Radio Frequency) energy. I've read that the energy transmission from a Smart meter is about equivalent to that of a cell phone... although the energy is variable, and some contest this comparison. I know some people don't like that energy - it gives them headaches, etc.

Do the people who don't want Smart meters not use cell phones?

Are some of those who don't like Smart meters ... anti PG&E in general?

[Sieglinde]

I asked for and had a Smart Meter installed a few months ago. I live in Sebastopol. Those who want them can get them. (Takes about a minute to replace and install the meter) I have noticed no difference in my power bill. I have heard about Smart Meters overcharging people but I have not had this experience. I use wifi throughout my house so any added RF in my house would not be noticed. (My extender is in my bedroom so I am obviously not worried about exposure)

The advantage is that you can monitor your power usage more closely.

I don't remember ever encountring a meter reader in my neighborhood and I am retired so I am home during the day.

[occihoff]

We use propane, and firewood from our forest, so for us PG&E is only for electricity. For many years we have qualified for a 30% low income discount under the CARE program. But recently I spent hours going over our old bills, and discovered that our CARE discount had been applied in an erratic and irregular way. We have two "smart" meters: one for the house, and another for a seldom used old cabin plus the pump that pumps our household water from our adjacent creek. The house uses far more electricity than the pump and cabin, yet the CARE discount was frequently and unpredictably given only for the cabin meter, instead of for both meters together as it should have been.

I contacted PG&E's CARE department, which resulted in a considerable rebate to be taken off future bills. But this bill analysis and telephone time with PG&E took a lot of work and hassle, and the CARE specialist could not explain how such a big and supposedly expert company could be so flaky in their billing process. If they had always low-balled us it would be one thing--they'd clearly be gypping us--but there had been no regular pattern in the ups and downs from month to month. So I'll have to watch my future bills like a hawk now, both for the bill itself and for how the rebate is applied!

The CARE specialist said he could not even see the fluctuations from month to month on his screen the way I can see them on my paper bills. He had to come up with another type of calculation, which fortunately coincided pretty well with my own. He said if I wanted to demand a fuller explanation of what's been going on here I would have to call PG&E again and ask to speak with a "billing specialist." We'll see where that goes. But clearly, given my experience and all the other experiences described in this Wacco thread, what is really needed is pressure put on the PUC to account for all this at best flaky and at worst crooked craziness!

[gypsey]

Very large quasi gov. corporations are beurocraices & so frequently less nimble or proactive so I am not surprised at the mistakes you describe--but why call it a scam or "crooked" when what was impressive was the CARE specialist working to help you solve your problem? As I see it, we all have to be our own advocate whether in health care, PG & E, or whatever other "authority" who can make silly or bureaucratic mistakes. Let us know how it goes with the billing specialist. The one who solved my own PG &E situation went out of her way to be helpful. Wishing you good luck!

We use propane, and firewood from our forest, so for us PG&E is only for electricity....

[Sieglinde]

I live in the 21st Century. I have wifi all throughout my house, don't have a land line and have cut the cable so my TV is streamed using Wifi. Also why would I go to the forest to harvest wood (Is this legal?) when I can buy wood pellets from the Feed Store? There is no gas to my house due to early stupid decisions in building my condo complex. My electricity bill has not changed since I got my smart meter. Looks like folks are having problems with their gas bills. I found when I had gas in another town that putting a thermostat that you could set a timer on helped. I used far less gas.

[occihoff]

My beef is not with the employees at PG&E. They have done their best to help me. My beef is with the corporation, which is loaded up with ratepayer profits but cannot seem to find the wherewithal to hire enough employees so that one does not have to wait 20 minutes on the phone to get a response, and to get their system to work efficiently so that ratepayers do not have to suffer the consequences of the kind of crazy billing errors that resulted in my finally having to spend an entire afternoon sorting out all my bills over the past three years (the time limit for which PG&E can be held responsible) in order to figure out what the hell was going on! In this process I also noticed how dramatically my charges have increased over this period, and not due to increased electrical usage on my part.

I saw no evidence of crookedness in my case, only incredible bureaucratic ineptitude. But PG&E certainly has been caught in plenty of crookedness in other situations.

Very large quasi gov. corporations are beurocraices & so frequently less nimble or proactive so I am not surprised at the mistakes you describe--but why call it a scam or "crooked" when what was impressive was the CARE specialist working to help you solve your problem? As I see it, we all have to be our own advocate whether in health care, PG & E, or whatever other "authority" who can make silly or bureaucratic mistakes. Let us know how it goes with the billing specialist. The one who solved my own PG &E situation went out of her way to be helpful. Wishing you good luck!

[santoshimatajaya]

~same

just wondering what can be DONE
to hold PF&E accountable
and not be manipulated by their self centered decision
to raise prices through the roof

this is not a Dictatorial Society
yet their actions reflect this

there should be some governing limits
in place
that protect consumers
and structure the bounds
of their pricing for energy
as they are a 'public service'
not a corporation or privately owned, run agency

i am a bit stimmied (sp?) by this whole thing
real lapse of Responsibility and Accountability on their part
out of the blue

my cost went from averaging $35/ month
to $145 !!!

not OK~

My beef is not with the employees at PG&E. They have done their best to help me. My beef is with the corporation, which is loaded up with ratepayer profits but cannot seem to find the wherewithal to hire enough employees so that one does not have to wait 20 minutes on the phone to get a response, and to get their system to work efficiently so that ratepayers do not have to suffer the consequences of the kind of crazy billing errors that resulted in my finally having to spend an entire afternoon sorting out all my bills over the past three years (the time limit for which PG&E can be held responsible) in order to figure out what the hell was going on! In this process I also noticed how dramatically my charges have increased over this period, and not due to increased electrical usage on my part.

I saw no evidence of crookedness in my case, only incredible bureaucratic ineptitude. But PG&E certainly has been caught in plenty of crookedness in other situations.

[Misty Me]

I know this is an older thread but i wanted to answer the question as to why some people may not want a smart meter.I have an analog meter and i chose not to have a smart meter put in because there is no Medical Guarantee for me or my family on long term RF exposure, no case studies , at this point the LED Street Lights have birds and plants very confused, so the environmental impact on wildlife and plants should have be done.I do not have a cell phone , very sensitive RF and Magnetic devices .My last MRI had me spastic and fatigued. Wii-fi and routers are far enough from me , i use EMF reader to distance myself but also my kids.I chose to opt out and the estimated billing is always high , i sometimes feel i am being punished for opting out. PG&E has limited oversight and basically investigate themselves, should an issue arise.
The Emissions by the way are steady and constant, it is not good on the Central Nervous System, because even that needs a break once in a while.

I think the reason some do not want Smart meters, is that they transmit data by RF (Radio Frequency) energy. I've read that the energy transmission from a Smart meter is about equivalent to that of a cell phone... although the energy is variable, and some contest this comparison. I know some people don't like that energy - it gives them headaches, etc.

Do the people who don't want Smart meters not use cell phones?

Are some of those who don't like Smart meters ... anti PG&E in general?

[spam1]

The Emissions by the way are steady and constant, it is not good on the Central Nervous System, because even that needs a break once in a while.

This is not true. I have measured them myself. They are few and fleeting. In fact it is rather difficult to measure them as you have to have a real-time spectrum analyzer to even see them when they come (which I borrowed one to be sure I was doing the best job that I could to measure the system). PGE just installed my smart meeting, and the signal transmits about every 4 minutes, and last a few thousandths of a second. Power appears to be about -30 dBm (about 1 microwatt) at a distance of a 2-3 meters. While there are lots of reasons to not want a smart meter (older analog meters often under-record usage so you get a deal there, and the remote cut-off feature is troubling), constant emission is not one of them.

I also measured my wifi router. It is nearly continuous (as one might expect when streaming, etc) but about the same power density.

Based on these measurements, the claim that smart meters emit 5000 times less total power than wifi seems justified.

[Misty Me]

I am not sure if your your trying to divert attention away from the facts such as long term exposure on humans and wildlife( you know-trails and tests) you got them? What about a nice Health Guarantee to go along with all your information here, that isn't exactly supported by clinical trails?

My conclusion is your are probably a PG&E Representative , trying to support Smart Meters, if I am wrong your trying to justify and validate your decision on getting a smart meter w/o sufficient health guarantee, case studies and trails.You obviously care about your health and want to promote all things good, show these reports and give the people a health guarantee, at least PG&E should stand behind there product, like your doing.

This is not true. I have measured them myself. They are few and fleeting. ....
Based on these measurements, the claim that smart meters emit 5000 times less total power than wifi seems justified.

[podfish]

.... What about a nice Health Guarantee to go along with all your information here, that isn't exactly supported by clinical trails?....

where are the Health Guarantees and clinical trails about things like 'organic foods', or various herbal health aides, or any of the things grandma told you were good for you, or for that matter most of the things, whatever they are, that you believe are healthy? People in general just go with what feels truthy to themselves and that either works for them or at least feels like it does. They don't demand guarantees, which aren't universally available and, in fact, are only worthwhile if backed by reputable organizations. And we all know there's generally consensus on who's reputable, right??

there's a lot more clinical evidence that emf is harmless than that it's harmful, especially when you consider how difficult it is to prove a negative.

[spam1]

My conclusion is your are probably a PG&E Representative , trying to support Smart Meters, if I am wrong .

Indeed, you are wrong. I am not affiliated with PG&E in any way. I am I guy who lives in the woods, and for some reason PG&E just got around to installing a smart meter. Since I have access to very good measurement equipment, I tried to be objective and make a real-life measurement on the smart meter, and report the results. Which are that the claim that smart meters produce 5000 times less EMF than a wifi router appear to be justified. Unlike almost everyone else here, I didn't take anyone's word for it, I measured it myself.

Now, if you have wifi in your house, or you live in a city with wifi coverage, or you have a cell phone, or a cordless phone, or live near an FM radio station, you are, without very much doubt, being exposed to thousands of times greater EMF than a smart meter. And if you are worried about smart meters instead the other sources then you are not being rational.

As I said, there are many reasons to be wary of smart meters; EMF, compared to the rest of the environment, is not one of them.

[Shandi]

Just wondering if smart phones come with a Health Guarantee....

I am not sure if your your trying to divert attention away from the facts such as long term exposure on humans and wildlife( you know-trails and tests) you got them? What about a nice Health Guarantee to go along with all your information here, that isn't exactly supported by clinical trails?

My conclusion is your are probably a PG&E Representative , trying to support Smart Meters, if I am wrong your trying to justify and validate your decision on getting a smart meter w/o sufficient health guarantee, case studies and trails.You obviously care about your health and want to promote all things good, show these reports and give the people a health guarantee, at least PG&E should stand behind there product, like your doing.

[Misty Me]

Not sure i don't own a smart phone, if you're question is not motivated by sarcasm than i would research the statistics on the subject.It is a controversial issue and it is important to know, people have a right to know.

https://youtu.be/kL2ncKs9K8o
https://youtu.be/GM8V1DZq1LA

Just wondering if smart phones come with a Health Guarantee....

[Misty Me]

So you live in the woods surrounded by trees, which give off clean oxygen during photosynthesis, you honestly believe your findings and measurements will be accurate for all people?Honestly your environment will effect your results, not everyone lives in the woods, some of us are city dwellers and some of us are not.You want to truly objection take your equipment and go into city dwellings , try several different environments , rural, suburban, city, your results will differ in each reading and measurement. Living in the woods , if i had a thermal heat camera it would be difficult to even find you, the trees alone would emit heat and oxygen, it just scrambles sensors. So if it does this to regular heat senor cameras, expect your environment to play a much bigger role in the outcome of your readings.

Indeed, you are wrong. I am not affiliated with PG&E in any way. I am I guy who lives in the woods, and for some reason PG&E just got around to installing a smart meter. Since I have access to very good measurement equipment,...

[podfish]

Honestly your environment will effect your results, not everyone lives in the woods, some of us are city dwellers and some of us are not.

it would be an interesting exercise for someone so interested in environmental hazards to analyze all the different components. I think vehicle emissions would be the most prevalent harmful substance, but maybe it's carpet or cooking emissions. Or cleaning products. Or noise, which is proven to impact wellness in the broad sense of the term. Second hand smoke.. there's a lot to worry about.

[kane]

Hi, curious what power levels did you see with your equipment?

Cell Phones produce up to 5 Watts or so(maybe less now?). Frequencies vary a little to a lot by carrier; which bands they use, 900mHz range or 2.1gHz range. Water is resonant around 2gHz(microwave ovens), Humans are up to 60% water, our brains and hearts up to 73% water, and our lungs up to 83% water.
Resonance means the electromagnetic radiation at 2gHz will heat the water in anything, tater tots or live brain cells.

If you're further from a cell tower your phone will ramp-up to max power to stay connected. Thus, if you're rural and far from nearest tower, and hold your phone to your head, you'll get more exposure from your own phone than someone in town or otherwise near the tower they're connecting to, where the phone will use minimum necessary power output to conserve battery charge.

WiFi output is about 1 Watt at 2.4 and/or 5 gHz
SmartMeters 1-2.5 Watts at 900mHz(PGE)
Bluetooth LE produces output power of approx. 10mW (10/1,000's of a Watt)

for quick comparison:
Cell phones 5,000/1,000's of a Watt; aka 5.00 Watts
SmartMeters 1,000-2,500/1,000's of a Watt; aka 1.00-2.50 Watts
WiFi 1,000/1,000's of a Watt; aka 1.00 Watt
Bluetooth 4 (aka BLE) 10/1,000's of a Watt; aka 0.010 Watts

A couple conclusions;
Smart Meters at 900mHz may have less water heating effect than WiFi(2.4gHz).
Cell Phones operating around 2.1gHz may potentially produce more water heating than WiFi or Smart Meters.
Bluetooth is a relatively low-exposure way to isolate yourself from Cell Phone EMF while using your cell phone(up to 30' away via Bluetooth). Earbuds good isolators too(distance).

We don't really know what the resonant frequency might be for many bodily tissues and structures; blood cells, organs, skin, retinal structures etc. But there may be heating effects other than for our bodily water at the frequencies of various RF & Microwave transmissions.

I personally opted out of Smart because our headboard is very close to our electrical panel, and we're rural, so transmissions will likely be at Max power, whatever that is, 1W? And PGE couldn't wouldn't tell me if it was transmitting all the time, every minute, second, hour etc. There are always "Housekeeping" transmissions throughout a day, devoid of customers usage data; keeping connection alive, diagnostics etc.

Over and Out
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