Women's Gifting Circle redux

[Barry]

Some version of the Women's gifting circle seems to be floating around again these days.

What do you think about it? Is it a pyramid? Is it a scam? Is it a valid way to create wealth, community, inspiration, focus, and other worthy non-financial outcomes?

Did you participate the last time around? How did it work out for you? Are you doing it again?

[Dixon]

Some version of the Women's gifting circle seems to be floating around again these days.
What do you think about it? Is it a pyramid? Is it a scam? Is it a valid way to create wealth, community, inspiration, focus, and other worthy non-financial outcomes?
Did you participate the last time around? How did it work out for you? Are you doing it again?

Barry, I can answer some of those questions, as, you may recall, I researched the so-called Women's "Gifting" Circle several years ago. It was a typical pyramid scheme tarted up with New Agey spiritual jargon, and about 89% of the women who joined lost every penny they invested so the other 11% could profit from their gullibility. In other words, a con game fleecing the suckers.

I had hoped that the thread I started here on Wacco back in 2005 to educate people about pyramid schemes had inoculated our community against such ripoffs, but I guess the local con artistes have decided it's been long enough for people to have forgotten my warnings, so I'll repeat them. Below is my initial post from 2005; it contains everything you need to know to understand that the Women's "Gifting" Circle and similar "games" are just sleazy ripoffs. There is no way to participate in these things without soiling your karma or, more likely, losing your money.

MY ORIGINAL POST FROM 2005:

Sisters and Brothers;

...I have a little knowledge about this issue because, after a couple of people in our community tried to recruit me into 2 different scams, I did some research on it. I now want to share this info before anyone else in our community gets ripped off. This info is neither controversial nor subjective opinion; rather it is incontrovertible mathematical fact. I especially want to reach out to those of you who are tempted to stop reading this either because you’ve profited from one of these scams or hope to in the future. I challenge you to do the right thing: Drop your defensiveness and call upon your Higher Self to open your hearts and minds to this info.

Every few years they return in slightly different forms. In years past, the Bay area was infected by scams with names like “Airplane Game”, “Abundance Workshop”, “Holiday Magic”, “Dare to Be Great”, “Koscot Interplanetary”, “Circle of Gold”, etc. More recently, we had the “Circle of Friends”, the “Women’s Gifting Circle”, and another one that didn’t even have a name, and was usually just called “the activity”. I am especially familiar with these last 3, having studied their promotional materials, and they are all, despite their denials, classic pyramid schemes (yes, sisters, I obtained a copy of the Women’s Gifting Circle materials from a woman friend, and verified beyond a doubt that it too was a swindle).

Briefly, the typical Ponzi, or pyramid, scheme involves buying into the game (usually costing at least a couple thousand dollars nowadays), and then recruiting some number of people (usually 2 recruits per participant) to join on the level below you. Because each level is larger than the previous one (usually twice the size, as each participant recruits 2 more), the “base” grows exponentially larger than the “tip” (the person who began the scam), hence the pyramid metaphor. For you to profit, the game has to grow enough for 3 layers to be built up beneath you, as any money you receive will be the buy-in bucks from new recruits 3 layers below you—in other words, you’ll receive the $$ from the 8 people who were recruited by the 4 people who were recruited by the 2 people who were recruited by you, so your initial investment of, say, $2000 will get you $16,000 (8 people’s buy-in fees) if the pyramid doesn’t collapse before it’s your turn to get paid. So it’s a deferred debt, earlier players receiving $$ from later ones, who hope to profit from those who join even later. Of course, eventually the whole house of cards collapses as new recruits can no longer be found, at which point the last 3 layers of payers, (the ones who haven’t ascended high enough in the pyramid to get paid) lose every penny they invested, with no payoff. Their $$ went to someone 3 levels above them, while there isn’t anybody 3 levels below them to pay them off! And since each level is double the size of the previous one, the last 3 levels (the folks who lost their $$$ so that those above them could profit) comprise the vast majority of all who joined! In all such schemes, around 90% of participants get ripped off so the other 10% can profit, which is very different from the rosy picture that was painted for them when they were recruited!

A key to understanding this is to realize that, unlike multi-level marketing companies such as Amway, wherein a product or service is being sold, bringing in $$ from outside the system so that everyone in the system can profit with no one getting ripped off, a pyramid scheme has a finite amount of $$ (the number of participants times the buy-in amount) so that no one can profit without someone else losing their dough. Example: 100 total participants x $2000 buy-in fee = $200,000, which if divided equally gives each person $2000, exactly what they paid to join. There is no conceivable way that anyone can waltz away from this “game” with a profit unless they took someone else’s share. Thus, whether they know it or not, anyone who has profited from one of these scams has robbed someone (usually 8 someones)! Furthermore, I have racked my brains trying to figure out some ethical way I could participate in such a thing (I certainly need the $$!) and have determined that, for reasons I’ll be happy to explain to anyone, there is no way to profit from one of these “games” without ripping someone off!

One thing that makes all of this confusing is that many, maybe most, of the participants honestly don’t realize that it’s inherently a swindle. I don’t want to judge too harshly those who have made an honest mistake, though I have noticed with disgust how some people close their minds in order to defend themselves from being shown that they are engaged in a swindle. People don’t want to see that they’ve profited from a swindle, so that they can keep the $$ without having to feel the guilt that would appropriately accompany the knowledge that they had ripped off their brothers and sisters.

Also, much of the terminology is purposely deceptive. For instance, calling it “gifting” is just flat-out bullshit. Since when do we need a pyramid structure to give a gift? If you want to give someone a couple of thousand bucks, just give it to them! In a pyramid scheme, you’re sending your $$ to someone 3 levels above you, probably a total stranger, in hopes of getting 8 times as much $$ from those 3 levels below you. What the hell kind of “gifting” is that?

What’s really pathetic about many of these scams is the “spiritual” trappings. Phrases like “The universe is abundant” and “Get out of poverty consciousness and into prosperity consciousness” fool gullible seekers into mistaking a sleazy scam for some kind of personal growth workshop. How many of you want to get some “spiritual enlightenment” by paying some New Age ripoff artiste a couple thousand bucks for a lesson in your own greed and gullibility?

I know that some of you reading this have soiled your karma by profiting from one of these swindles (whether or not you knew at the time that it was a swindle); I even know who some of you are. Now here’s the question that will separate the men from the boys and the women from the girls, morally speaking: What’s more important to you, keeping the $$ or doing the right thing? If you want to do the right thing and clean up your karma, your course of action is obvious: you must return your ill-gotten profits to those you got them from, preferably with interest and an apology. The good news is that you also have every right to contact the person who took your money and demand it back.

Bottom line: if someone tells you to pay a certain amount of money so that you can receive several times that amount in profit by some magical process that doesn’t involve the hard work of selling some product or service, don’t do it! They’ll swear up and down that it’s not a pyramid scheme, that it’s legal, that it’s gifting, etc. ad nauseum—these are all lies designed to separate the gullible from their dough.

Part of the reason I went to the trouble to write this public service announcement is to assuage my own guilt for not reporting the people who tried to recruit me into such scams to the police. I tried to talk them out of participating in the scam, but with the smell of easy $$ caressing their nostrils, they were too rigidly defended to budge. I took the coward’s way out, avoiding the shit-storm of controversy that would ensue if I had done the right thing and called the cops. Next time, I will try to do better, and so should you. If some “friend” tries to recruit you into a scam, give them the benefit of the doubt; assume they honestly don’t know it’s a rip-off. Try to talk them out of it. If you can’t, give them my phone number (707-527-6163) so I can try to educate them. If they still insist on participating in the scam, do the right thing; call the cops and let them handle it. If that seems harsh, understand that our “friends” who persevere in these rotten scams are ripping people off just as surely as if they stuck a gun in someone’s ribs and took their wallet.

Do you think I’m mistaken about this? Call me and straighten me out! Any questions? Call me! Got a friend who’s tempted to join such a scheme? Give them my phone number!

Just trying to follow the Golden Rule;
Dixon
(707)527-6163

[Dixon]

A couple more things:

After I posted that educational post about pyramid schemes in 2005, I received several private emails from people who had been ripped off or had seen their friends ripped off by the Women's "Gifting" Circle and similar scams in our community. Unfortunately, people are usually too embarrassed to come forward publicly and admit to having been victimized by these things. That's too bad because it'd help inoculate our community against such things. Are any of you reading this willing to post on this thread and recount how you got ripped off by your "friends" spouting "spiritual" slogans?

Also, here's a link to another explanation of pyramid schemes:
https://skepdic.com/pyramid.html

[Barry]

Are any of you reading this willing to post on this thread and recount how you got ripped off by your "friends" spouting "spiritual" slogans?

I also welcome other points of view. I'm particularly interested in the non-financial aspects, friendships/mentorships that were built or destroyed, skills learned, adventures had, confidence built or dashed.... How has it affected your life in all aspects?

[MissElaineE.]

I have not participated. I sincerely doubt that there has ever been, or ever will be, a time in my life where I was free to "gift" the amount of $5000. Since that seems to be the amount one must ante up, I suspect I am protected to some extent by the fact that membership in this group is unaffordable to me.

That said, it is my personal opinion that this group is bad juju. Mixing up women's spirituality with monetary stuff like this is not a good idea, this is my opinion of course, but as an example, this particular group seems like it truly just proves the point. I think it takes advantage of women who have not been fortunate to have experienced a true spiritual circle and the hierarchy of the group is dis-empowering. That's not at all what I think women's spirituality should be about. If a friend of mine were to ask me whether to join or not, I would do whatever I could to convince her it's a bad idea!

Here's something I recently read on another site. This was written by a woman who did participate, and then left the group.

As an aside, the website where I read the post (RealitySandwich.com) has many other entries on topics which may be of interest to some Waccobbeans.

https://www.realitysandwich.com/womens_circle_pyramid

[Evalena Rose]

Hi Barry,
Thanks for asking. I know the Women's Gifting Circles sound good and seem like a valid way to make money, and they do make money for the first women who join. However, they do seem like a pyramid and require that women keep bringing in other women so, unless every one keeps buying back in, eventually you run out of people to ask. If everyone needs to bring in two people, and they two people, that seems like a pyramid that eventually doesn't get filled at the bottom.

I have tried it before and got to where I couldn't ask anyone to join as I knew, if they didn't complete their down levels, women would invest and lose their investment. That did happen to several friends and for me in a similar type of circle. Any scheme that requires one person bring in two more, the math in 10-20 levels gets to very large numbers and eventually there aren't enough people to keep it going. For 35 years, I've been around these types of schemes and have seen the first people make a lot, then it go bust and people get hurt. I certainly can't participate anymore knowing that.

I do find it works on upleveling people's consciousness about money, so it becomes like a Mastermind group, so it has that value. I think those in it for the non-financial rewards could find it useful in philosophies shared and mutual support for wealth. Most people, though, pin a lot of hopes on making money and only some succeed. I'd say only invest what you can easily afford to lose, if at all.

Blessings to all,
Evalena

Some version of the Women's gifting circle seems to be floating around again these days.

What do you think about it? Is it a pyramid? Is it a scam? Is it a valid way to create wealth, community, inspiration, focus, and other worthy non-financial outcomes?

Did you participate the last time around? How did it work out for you? Are you doing it again?

[Dixon]

Here's something I recently read on another site. This was written by a woman who did participate, and then left the group...
https://www.realitysandwich.com/womens_circle_pyramid

MissElaineE., thanks for sharing this fascinating article. I read the whole thing with interest and would recommend it (and most of the associated comments thread) to everyone. Those of you who are disinclined to read or believe my words (because I'm male, or because I'm a skeptic, or because I'm Dixon ) should read this article by a woman who's been through the Women's "Gifting" Circle culture.

It gave me new insight into the psychological and social forces that suck someone into the secretive, cult-like experience, and emphasized the non-financial price women pay for their involvement: disillusionment in and alienation from their "friends" when they realize they've been betrayed, with the attendant unravelling of people's social lives, deeper and deeper levels of self-deception with the muzzling of the internal voice of true honesty and wisdom in the service of greed, as well as the ostracization and slandering of those women who dare to question the cult, etc. (Some local women have privately described some of this to me regarding their involvement with the 2005 Women's "Gifting" Circle.) It's unutterably disgusting to see well-meaning women who are seeking fellowship, enlightenment and prosperity being suckered in with cynical talk about "empowering women", "prosperity consciousness", "Law of Attraction", etc. ad nauseam. Very interesting article indeed!

[Dixon]

Evalena, I wanna express appreciation to you for sharing your experience, and for your integrity in dropping out of these scams when you realized that they're pyramid schemes.

...women would invest and lose their investment. That did happen to several friends and for me in a similar type of circle.

Just for the sake of clarity, in a "circle" (pyramid) with an each-member-recruit-two structure like the 2005 Women's "Gifting" Circle (and I understand the current version is similar), that doesn't just happen to "several friends"; nearly 9 out of 10 who join lose every penny they invest (and yes, I'm joining you in calling it an investment, not a gift. Anyone who calls a pyramid scheme buy-in fee a "gift" is not being honest). The number who are ripped off in these scams is not readily apparent because nearly all of them are too embarrassed to talk about it (though some have told me about it privately).

I do find it works on upleveling people's consciousness about money...

This reminds me of this quote from my long post (#2 in this thread): "How many of you want to get some “spiritual enlightenment” by paying some New Age ripoff artiste a couple thousand bucks for a lesson in your own greed and gullibility?" I'm really curious, Evalena, as to what you mean by "upleveling people's consciousness about money". Could you give an example or two of some learning afforded by participation in these scams that is likely to actually be true and is so wonderful that it's worth thousands of dollars plus the loss of friends, soiling of karma, and other costs of participating in a swindle?

[PDines]

Thanks Dixon for taking the time to caution people about this structure, in your past post and now. I think your message is so important and well-stated.

A number of years ago, a woman tried to recruit me to a women's circle kind of thing, and I saw right away that it was a pyramid scheme. Once you know the structure of one, it's pretty obvious. I told them that it was, but they argued adamantly that it wasn't. I just shrugged and moved on.

I'm fascinated by what I read, here and elsewhere, that people are seduced, manipulated, and pressured in to these schemes by all sorts of flattery, idealistic and empowering language, etc. That tells me that people have that need, but we need to separate that in our minds from the aspect that's about financial investments and claims.

If someone sincerely wants to provide a circle for women's empowerment, why don't they just do that, charge a fee, and be honest about it? To me, the fundamental lack of integrity in the structure and presentation undermines whatever teaching might be offered. I think that we can only offer a space for true healthy wisdom when we challenge ourselves to walk our talk and live in ways that are truly of service and integrity. Otherwise, we don't really know what that path entails...

[franjoy]

This is a repeat of something that went around about 15 years ago. You can call it whatever you want, it is a pyramid scheme.

[Dixon]

Those interested in this topic may wish to read my recent article "Pyramid of Betrayal" here, if you haven't already. Parts of it will be a bit redundant if you're among the few who read my lengthy post earlier in this thread, but the article goes into more depth about psychological and social factors that distort our judgment, etc. Also, post #9 in the comment thread following the article is an urgent call from me for information from those who have been victimized by any of the local pyramid schemes. Please check it out. Thanks!

[rossmen]

i struggle to understand your motivation here dixon. i know women still involved and appreciative, dropped out and silent, witnessing and empathetic, i understand it as evolving lessons in life, we all pay to learn. there are many scams in play. the criminal injustice system does not fit most lessons...

Those interested in this topic may wish to read my recent article "Pyramid of Betrayal" here, if you haven't already. Parts of it will be a bit redundant if you're among the few who read my lengthy post earlier in this thread, but the article goes into more depth about psychological and social factors that distort our judgment, etc. Also, post #9 in the comment thread following the article is an urgent call from me for information from those who have been victimized by any of the local pyramid schemes. Please check it out. Thanks!

[Dixon]

i struggle to understand your motivation here dixon.

Rossmen, I hate to see people get victimized, and I feel a social responsibility to try to do something about it. What's hard to understand about that?

i know women still involved and appreciative...

Those would be the ones who have profited from the swindle, or the ones who haven't found out yet that they're about to lose their money.

...dropped out and silent...

Their silence would be due to embarrassment at being suckered, and/or fear of being ostracized or attacked by their "friends" involved in the cultish scam if they speak up, or perhaps they made a bundle and don't want to discuss it for fear of getting busted for their crime.

...witnessing and empathetic...

Witnessing and empathizing is what I've been promoting all along. My efforts to dispel the smokescreens and educate folks about how these things really work is all about witnessing. And my desire to stop these swindles from happening is due to my empathy for the victims. Rossmen, your sanguine attitude toward such ripoffs would seem to reflect a notable lack of empathy for the victims. What part of "swindle" do you not understand?

i understand it as evolving lessons in life, we all pay to learn. there are many scams in play.

So, rossmen, if someone stuck a pistol in your ribs and took your wallet, or crawled through your window and burglarized your place, would you write if off as "evolving lessons in life" and not try to get the crook apprehended, letting him or her continue to victimize others?

...the criminal injustice system does not fit most lessons...

The criminal "justice" system is, as you know, systemically corrupt and oppressive. But it also occasionally protects us from murderers, rapists, and swindlers. The refusal of people to allow themselves to be talked out of swindling their sisters and brothers is what makes a criminal justice system necessary. Sadly, our community, like all communities I guess, is infected with people whose empathy and sense of honor, if they exist at all, are overshadowed by their greed. Basic behavioral theory tells us that if their rapacious behaviors are rewarded, they'll continue and increase. If unrewarded or punished, the behaviors will extinguish. What's your plan for dealing with this very real problem, rossmen? Shrugging your shoulders with an insipid grin on your face and saying "Oh well, it's just evolving lessons in life. We all pay to learn."? You mentioned empathy. Try to grow some.

[tomcat]

When there is no product, only money changes hands and the first to invest are winners and the last to invest are losers... it's a pyramid scheme.

Multilevel Marketing businesses can also be pyramid schemes. I've heard heartbreaking stories about these also, although most people who lose at these are also too embarrassed to talk about it or will rationalize their loss as just not trying hard enough, or, sure they spent a lot of money, but they really learned a lot!

With most MLM's, you can work your ass off and be lucky to break even. The only way to make any real money is to recruit more people who will recruit more people, etc, etc, and you make a cut of all of their sales, So it's the ones at the top who really make the money.

Just do a search for MLM scams and you will find things like the following.


https://www.sec.gov/investor/alerts/ia_pyramid.htm

When considering joining an MLM program, beware of these hallmarks of a pyramid scheme:

• No genuine product or service. MLM programs involve selling a genuine product or service to people who are not in the program. Exercise caution if there is no underlying product or service being sold to others, or if what is being sold is speculative or appears inappropriately priced.
• Promises of high returns in a short time period. Be leery of pitches for exponential returns and "get rich quick" claims. High returns and fast cash in an MLM program may suggest that commissions are being paid out of money from new recruits rather than revenue generated by product sales.
• Easy money or passive income. Be wary if you are offered compensation in exchange for little work such as making payments, recruiting others, and placing advertisements.
• No demonstrated revenue from retail sales. Ask to see documents, such as financial statements audited by a certified public accountant (CPA), showing that the MLM company generates revenue from selling its products or services to people outside the program.
• Buy-in required. The goal of an MLM program is to sell products. Be careful if you are required to pay a buy-in to participate in the program, even if the buy-in is a nominal one-time or recurring fee (e.g., $10 or $10/month).
• Complex commission structure. Be concerned unless commissions are based on products or services that you or your recruits sell to people outside the program. If you do not understand how you will be compensated, be cautious.
• Emphasis on recruiting. If a program primarily focuses on recruiting others to join the program for a fee, it is likely a pyramid scheme. Be skeptical if you will receive more compensation for recruiting others than for product sales.

[joybird]

What are these women appreciating? I'd really like to know that.
Do they really understand that this is a pyramid scheme? I didn't appreciate learning that getting my money back was near to impossible.

Joy

i struggle to understand your motivation here dixon. i know women still involved and appreciative, dropped out and silent, witnessing and empathetic, i understand it as evolving lessons in life, we all pay to learn. there are many scams in play. the criminal injustice system does not fit most lessons...

[Shandi]

There are circles for women's empowerent, but there are sub-catagories of empowerment, and it may be that the lure of sisterly "financial" empowerment trumps spiritual or relationship power. The potential of getting rich quick will have an appeal to most of us. And if our best friend spins stories of other women doing it, we may believe we can too. And, then there are some who are already in the circle who are willing to "front" the money, giving the impression that they're confident about you making the payback, since they've made so much already through the method they're promoting..

I think I've already shared about my experience in Hawaii. The money was fronted for me, but after only a short time I wanted out, after watching a wealthy women burn a hundred dollar bill. I was allowed to leave, with no loss and no gain. This was in 1986. Word spread quickly that it was a scheme.

I was approached several years ago to join a "garden club" in Marin, but it had all the same elements that I was familiar with. I declined.

The sooner women can become aware of ways that they can be easily separated from their money, they'll be protecting themselves from predators who appear as friends.

Thanks Dixon for taking the time to caution people about this structure, in your past post and now. I think your message is so important and well-stated.

A number of years ago, a woman tried to recruit me to a women's circle kind of thing, and I saw right away that it was a pyramid scheme. Once you know the structure of one, it's pretty obvious. I told them that it was, but they argued adamantly that it wasn't. I just shrugged and moved on.

I'm fascinated by what I read, here and elsewhere, that people are seduced, manipulated, and pressured in to these schemes by all sorts of flattery, idealistic and empowering language, etc. That tells me that people have that need, but we need to separate that in our minds from the aspect that's about financial investments and claims.

If someone sincerely wants to provide a circle for women's empowerment, why don't they just do that, charge a fee, and be honest about it? To me, the fundamental lack of integrity in the structure and presentation undermines whatever teaching might be offered. I think that we can only offer a space for true healthy wisdom when we challenge ourselves to walk our talk and live in ways that are truly of service and integrity. Otherwise, we don't really know what that path entails...

[meherc]

Evalena: I liked yr post but don't quite understand what you mean by the group's value in "upleveling" people's consciousness about money. That they won't get fooled again; they come to see their relationship to money, how much energy they will put into getting it? What non-financial rewards and philosophies would they get since it seems the group revolves around getting money from the get go? I have never gotten involved in one of these groups so my questions are sincere.

Hi Barry,
Thanks for asking. I know the Women's Gifting Circles sound good and seem like a valid way to make money, and they do make money for the first women who join. However, they do seem like a pyramid and require that women keep bringing in other women so, unless every one keeps buying back in, eventually you run out of people to ask. If everyone needs to bring in two people, and they two people, that seems like a pyramid that eventually doesn't get filled at the bottom.

I have tried it before and got to where I couldn't ask anyone to join as I knew, if they didn't complete their down levels, women would invest and lose their investment. That did happen to several friends and for me in a similar type of circle. Any scheme that requires one person bring in two more, the math in 10-20 levels gets to very large numbers and eventually there aren't enough people to keep it going. For 35 years, I've been around these types of schemes and have seen the first people make a lot, then it go bust and people get hurt. I certainly can't participate anymore knowing that.

I do find it works on upleveling people's consciousness about money, so it becomes like a Mastermind group, so it has that value. I think those in it for the non-financial rewards could find it useful in philosophies shared and mutual support for wealth. Most people, though, pin a lot of hopes on making money and only some succeed. I'd say only invest what you can easily afford to lose, if at all.

Blessings to all,
Evalena

[joybird]

I went back in this thread and read this article that was previously posted on 8/11/13 by MissElaineE
https://realitysandwich.com/176721/w...ircle_pyramid/
Wow.
I joined one of these pyramid schemes about 25 years ago as I have said already on this thread. Reading this article makes me aware of the level of sophistication that has been added to the rhetoric.
And in a cruel twist makes me sorry that no one has asked me to join this time. Because being asked to join means you are spiritually advanced and ready to be part of the secret circle. And dang if I don't want to be seduced by my own deepness.
(Do I need to put in a wink ?)

What are these women appreciating? I'd really like to know that.
Do they really understand that this is a pyramid scheme? I didn't appreciate learning that getting my money back was near to impossible.

Joy

[Svea]

And in a cruel twist makes me sorry that no one has asked me to join this time. Because being asked to join means you are spiritually advanced and ready to be part of the secret circle. And dang if I don't want to be seduced by my own deepness.
(Do I need to put in a wink ?)

No Wink Necessary!!

An old friend who recently passed away was seduced into a local, west county "women's gifting circle" about 12-14 years ago. Being an accounting person, I argued and argued with her that this was a joke. She just didn't get it that it was a ponzi scheme. Some people are not able to think in those terms. These are in fact the people who have no business doing accounting work! They are also likely the victims of such ponzi schemes.

Buyer beware!!!!

Svea

[Vicky10]

Hi Evalena, et al.
I recently joined a circle and did so because in my mind I was comparing it to one of those micro-loans that foundations give women in developing countries... an alternative funding source for women. One of my best friends even warned me that it had ponzi scheme basics but I was focused on the alternative funding part. I didn't really comprehend the pyramid aspect of it. I understood that one might not get back their money... that it was an act of faith. But since I failed every math class I ever took (oh how those math classes dragged down my GPA! ) I didn't really comprehend the numerical unsustainability part. Oh well, live and learn I guess.

Hi Barry,
Thanks for asking. I know the Women's Gifting Circles sound good and seem like a valid way to make money, and they do make money for the first women who join. However, they do seem like a pyramid and require that women keep bringing in other women so, unless every one keeps buying back in, eventually you run out of people to ask. If everyone needs to bring in two people, and they two people, that seems like a pyramid that eventually doesn't get filled at the bottom.

I have tried it before and got to where I couldn't ask anyone to join as I knew, if they didn't complete their down levels, women would invest and lose their investment. That did happen to several friends and for me in a similar type of circle. Any scheme that requires one person bring in two more, the math in 10-20 levels gets to very large numbers and eventually there aren't enough people to keep it going. For 35 years, I've been around these types of schemes and have seen the first people make a lot, then it go bust and people get hurt. I certainly can't participate anymore knowing that.

I do find it works on upleveling people's consciousness about money, so it becomes like a Mastermind group, so it has that value. I think those in it for the non-financial rewards could find it useful in philosophies shared and mutual support for wealth. Most people, though, pin a lot of hopes on making money and only some succeed. I'd say only invest what you can easily afford to lose, if at all.

Blessings to all,
Evalena

[Svea]

Hi Evalena, et al.
I recently joined a circle and did so because in my mind I was comparing it to one of those micro-loans that foundations give women in developing countries... an alternative funding source for women. One of my best friends even warned me that it had ponzi scheme basics but I was focused on the alternative funding part. I didn't really comprehend the pyramid aspect of it. I understood that one might not get back their money... that it was an act of faith. But since I failed every math class I ever took (oh how those math classes dragged down my GPA! ) I didn't really comprehend the numerical unsustainability part. Oh well, live and learn I guess.

Vicky,
Some people are gifted at putting numbers together and seeing a realistic picture of where it is going, and some are gifted in other very different ways. I think that the folks who work the ponzi schemes are gifted at figuring out which is which and targeting those that serve them best.

Svea

[Shandi]

Do you know how much money she lost, or how long it took her to figure it out?

...An old friend who recently passed away was seduced into a local, west county "women's gifting circle" about 12-14 years ago. Being an accounting person, I argued and argued with her that this was a joke. She just didn't get it that it was a ponzi scheme. Some people are not able to think in those terms. ...Buyer beware!!!!

[Robyn Rosenwald]

I have a friend who belongs to two circles. She has found tremendous value in developing leadership, opening up to a community of women, empowerment, and other priceless gifts such as women supporting each other in fulfilling their goals. She has dedicated a lot of time and effort and energy to this.

She invited me to join and I declined because I saw it for what it was on a financial level... I think for women struggling with the current economic paradigm it is very seductive. We do need alternatives...

I did attend a phone call with a group and it was definitely a very supportive and empowering environment for the women involved on the call.

I don't know if it will ever pay off for her financially. I hope so. She has certainly put on the hours and more.

[Vicky10]

...I think for women struggling with the current economic paradigm it is very seductive. We do need alternatives...
I did attend a phone call with a group and it was definitely a very supportive and empowering environment for the women involved on the call.
I don't know if it will ever pay off for her financially. I hope so. She has certainly put on the hours and more.

This captures exactly my experience and how I feel.

These circles are most seductive for women struggling in the current sick and unjust economic paradigm and the calls are supportive and empowering, especially for the women struggling the most.

I too hope for my best friend, who invited me, and for all the others, that it will pay off financially as well. I just can't, in good conscience, invite anymore women into this now that I understand the mathematics of it.

In the documents there is a way that one can leave but I feel bad about that too because it means I get repaid by some other poor woman's money. That feels like doing unto someone what I wouldn't want done to me. I know the person who invited me did so with a pure heart just as I did with the woman I invited. I have apologized profusely to my invitee and have directed her to this conversation explaining that I didn't understand. I feel really bad about what I did.

[rossmen]

seems you misunderstood my question dixon. it was specific to the post i replied too. i appreciate your education efforts and especially the link to the first person account. i am just curious about why you want private accounts and your promise of possible refund. law enforcement efforts i know of are limited too education, and not nearly as thorough and engaging as yours. this is an extremely difficult scam to prosecute or litigate for many reasons. i am very interested in restorative justice and think it might help here. i am most saddened by the social damage done and worried about my friends;..(

Rossmen, I hate to see people get victimized, and I feel a social responsibility to try to do something about it. What's hard to understand about that?...

[theindependenteye]

I can imagine there's a positive energy in the inclusion of the Money factor in a support group. It's more than the possibility of gain, the good old greed factor that fuels con games historically. It's also a kind of magical focus of intention, like a ritual blood sacrifice or ordeal. Money, for most of us, is our most intimate self: lotsa people would more easily stand stark naked or talk intimately about sexual experience than reveal their bank accounts to friends. So an investment of money in a "gifting circle" partakes of that ritual power. Plus, as has been said, lotsa people need money.

Why not a support group requiring the same investment for purposes of micro-financing? Or even to invest group funds in buying lottery tickets or playing the stock market or the horses? It's the inclusion of the classic Ponzi structure that screws up the works. Creating & evolving a support group that encompassed true financial support would be tremendously difficult, because it pulls against all our learned instincts (whereas the Ponzi model feels so lubricated), but it would be a true test and contribution to our capacity for building community.

Cheers—
Conrad
www.DamnedFool.com

[Dixon]

I did attend a phone call with a group and it was definitely a very supportive and empowering environment for the women involved on the call.
I don't know if it will ever pay off for her financially. I hope so. She has certainly put on the hours and more.

Robyn, I have calculated the numbers for a pyramid scheme of this particular type (each one recruit two others and receive the buy-in fees from those 3 levels below). About 89% of the women who participate will lose their investment so the 11% who got in earlier can profit from their gullibility. I assume you have enough empathy for those who get ripped off to agree with me that even if your friend profits, the pyramid can't be said to have a good outcome. One wonders how "supported and empowered" the majority of the participants ultimately feel when they realize their money is gone. Let's be very clear: the net result of scams like the Women's "Wisdom" Circle is not support or empowerment of the community of women; it's betrayal, disillusionment, and corruption of the community.

[Dixon]

In the documents there is a way that one can leave but I feel bad about that too because it means I get repaid by some other poor woman's money. That feels like doing unto someone what I wouldn't want done to me. I know the person who invited me did so with a pure heart just as I did with the woman I invited. I have apologized profusely to my invitee and have directed her to this conversation explaining that I didn't understand. I feel really bad about what I did.

Hi, Vicky--
I want to express my appreciation for your integrity in leaving the circle when you understood what it really was, and in sharing your experience publicly here. Unfortunately, a lot of folks are too embarrassed to share their similar experiences publicly, so these schemes continue to infect our community periodically for lack of education/consciousness on the subject.

If there's anyone else you know who needs education about this sort of thing, you may wish to direct them to my recent article on the subject, which explains the mathematical realities very clearly, and also goes into some of the psychological/social aspects. It can be found here.

[Dixon]

Rossmen, thanks for your clarification. To answer your question: I was hoping to get specific info from actual victims of these scams to provide to the appropriate authorities so that some of the swindlers could actually be prosecuted. Sadly but truly, that seems to be the only way to stop those who are unconstrained by conscience or empathy from victimizing others. However, while some are willing to complain about having been ripped off, no one seems willing to do what's necessary to stop it from happening to the next bunch of victims. Their empathy and social consciousness are tiny compared to their self-pity. At this point, after putting lots of energy into trying to protect the community from this sort of violation, I'm trying not to cry too much over the vicitimization of a community that has no commitment to doing what they can to stop it. I guess the community will get the justice it deserves--none at all. Sad though.

[rossmen]

justice has many forms. pyramid schemes leave a long trail of victims and i don't think the originators make all that much. my guess is that most who get a payoff "reinvest". there seems to be a lot of sponsoring in this latest manifestation. so the money loss might be less cruel than simple calculation suggests.

i admire your educational efforts and holding that objective rational thought is the best way to understand and make decisions in the world, especially around money. the women excited about being invited, feeling the support, and inviting others, its easy to judge them as greedy, or naive. but i don't know them like this. and if they have stepped away, holding those they know are still involved with the care of confidentiality, perhaps that is their way of healing the biggest cost i see here, social damage.

maybe the women's wisdom circle name is true for participants in an unexpected way. you can call me unemphatic or mean for imagining there might be something positive in this. i certainly don't mean to defend it. maybe i am smug because i have never fallen for such a simple scam. maybe its just my way of coping with another sad thing we humans do to each other;.(

Rossmen, thanks for your clarification. To answer your question: I was hoping to get specific info from actual victims of these scams to provide to the appropriate authorities so that some of the swindlers could actually be prosecuted. Sadly but truly, that seems to be the only way to stop those who are unconstrained by conscience or empathy from victimizing others. However, while some are willing to complain about having been ripped off, no one seems willing to do what's necessary to stop it from happening to the next bunch of victims. Their empathy and social consciousness are tiny compared to their self-pity. At this point, after putting lots of energy into trying to protect the community from this sort of violation, I'm trying not to cry too much over the vicitimization of a community that has no commitment to doing what they can to stop it. I guess the community will get the justice it deserves--none at all. Sad though.