Occupy the language

[Califoon]

OK- So I got a few funny responses from folks who could identify with my frustration over careless typists/communicators. I thought I'd move the subject over here and see if anyone else cared to comment.

In my case I've been reading the news for a long time and year after year the sentence structure and grammar have continued to go downhill. The Press Democrat is a prime example. Evidently proofreading and editing have become too expensive. Add to this what I see day after day on Facebook and I've been building a burn for quite a while. Last Sunday while waiting for the farmer's market to open down at the plaza, I got some coffee and there was a fresh copy of the NY Times. I read it with building pleasure as there was not a single mistake, goof, typo, whatever, to be found. IT CAN BE DONE. 8>) This all lead me to the other night's off-topic outburst.

It's the little details of communication that grease the wheels of civility and culture...Take responsibility for your communications please. Yes, I understand that I sound cranky, LOL. It will pass.

Here's one note I received from funny-person Hogiemoon on the subject:
"I personally have experienced a significant decline in myown spelling skills. Speaking of grammer. One of my favorites is on restaurant menus where the French Dip Sandwich au jus is listed as "with au jus." Or worse when the waitress yells at the cook to give some more "Ah juice."

Add your own favorites- If you're stuck, just go get a Press Democrat and you can play too. Occupy the culture.
8>) Cal

[Weiser]

Califoon,

My follow up to the the French Dip comment is when I went to the Arby's in Rohnert Park. They had a sign proudly proclaiming they served roast beef sandwiches with "Au Jus Sause."

[Weiser]

Let me clairify. I called the manager on the sign while making my order. Keep in mind "Sause" was spelled by the Spanish speaking manager that worked there. Things may be more complex than you think.

For my own part I promise to try to do better.

[Dixon]

Add your own favorites- If you're stuck, just go get a Press Democrat and you can play too.

Okay, Cal, I'll play, but there's no need to get a Press Democrat to do a treasure hunt for errors; there are plenty in your post. For instance, in the passage quoted above, you use a hyphen as a dash (which should have been a plain old period anyway), and the spacing is wrong, too. And, "Press Democrat" should have been italicized.

This all lead me to the other night's off-topic outburst.

And in that sentence, "lead" should have been "led".
Wow--this is fun! Great idea, Cal!

Seriously, Bro (or is it Sis?), I understand how annoying it is to encounter so many errors in spelling, usage, grammar, punctuation, etc., and how tempting it is to see ourselves as better than those who are more raggedy than we are in these areas, but I have to remind myself that these errors are really only problematical when they interfere with the clarity of the message. It's fun to laugh at such errors, but making an issue of them when they really don't impact the clarity makes us look snotty and picayune. And if our own screed contains errors, the laugh is on us! :whackasmilie:

Recently, I publicly corrected a guy's error here on Wacco because it was in his ad for editing/proofreading services (!), and I felt it appropriate to warn prospective customers about the quality of his skills. He then sent me a private email in which he offered to demonstrate his skills by editing any material I'd send him, but I politely declined--partly because his offer included two misspellings and a spacing error!

I allow myself a number of non-standard spellings and other "errors", such as "gonna" and "wanna", in informal writing, but when editing/proofreading, I do it all as perfectly as I can. And as you've seen, I'm hawk-eyed. So here I'll just mention that anyone seeking top-notch writing/editing/proofreading services at bargain rates should contact me:
Dixon Wragg
(707) 527-6163
[email protected]

P.S. You might like the recently started Facebook page called "Apostrophes are for contractions and possessive forms, NOT plurals!" That's one of my pet peeves, and I'm sure it's one of yours, too!

[Califoon]

Ahh, Dixon...I knew you'd come gunning for this one. I could smell the smoke from your literary revolver even as I was looking at "lead" trying to remember if "led" was actually a word. Missed that one, huh? Hey, let me borrow that thing...:whackasmilie:...Good, much better. I'll probably remember it next time now.

Would you please refresh us as to the difference between the hyphen and the dash? That one escapes me and I know I tend to use it generically as a musician would use a dotted note, to hold the thought just a moment longer. Call it artistic license in that case, or maybe cross-pollenation. As for the italicization of the PD, I'm sorry but that's a bit too anal and picayune even for me. It's exactly the kind of thing I knew you'd find. Thanks for the learning moment. Next time I need a proof reader you're hired.

Seriously, I'm don't intend to be a school marm on this issue. I have no ruler to slap knuckles with, I only ask that we review what we've written before we post. I'm not going to Wragg on anyone over it. I reviewed my post to the limits of my knowledge, which are probably much clearer to you (the professional) than they are to me. That's fine with me.

The apostrophe thing, we are truly brothers on that one. No doubt they're, their, and there send you right up the frickin wall as well.

Come on, you must have some great and funny examples to share on this subject. Give us a laugh won't you? It will help diffuse my cranky moment

Kids of all ages can play.

Your "Bro" Cal

Okay, Cal, I'll play, but there's no need to get a Press Democrat to do a treasure hunt for errors; there are plenty in your post. For instance, in the passage quoted above, you use a hyphen as a dash (which should have been a plain old period anyway), and the spacing is wrong, too. And, "Press Democrat" should have been italicized.

And in that sentence, "lead" should have been "led".
Wow--this is fun! Great idea, Cal!

Seriously, Bro (or is it Sis?), I understand how annoying it is to encounter so many errors in spelling, usage, grammar, punctuation, etc., and how tempting it is to see ourselves as better than those who are more raggedy than we are in these areas, but I have to remind myself that these errors are really only problematical when they interfere with the clarity of the message. It's fun to laugh at such errors, but making an issue of them when they really don't impact the clarity makes us look snotty and picayune. And if our own screed contains errors, the laugh is on us! :whackasmilie:

[Sara S]

But, Dixon, you say

" It's fun to laugh at such errors, but making an issue of them when they really don't impact the clarity makes us look snotty and picayune."

and yet, that's what you're doing here. The clarity of Cal's message wasn't "impacted" by using a hyphen instead of a dash, for god's sake, and you know it.

Okay, Cal, I'll play, but there's no need to get a Press Democrat to do a treasure hunt for errors; there are plenty in your post. For instance, in the passage quoted above, you use a hyphen as a dash (which should have been a plain old period anyway), and the spacing is wrong, too. And, "Press Democrat" should have been italicized.

And in that sentence, "lead" should have been "led".
Wow--this is fun! Great idea, Cal!

Seriously, Bro (or is it Sis?), I understand how annoying it is to encounter so many errors in spelling, usage, grammar, punctuation, etc., and how tempting it is to see ourselves as better than those who are more raggedy than we are in these areas, but I have to remind myself that these errors are really only problematical when they interfere with the clarity of the message. It's fun to laugh at such errors, but making an issue of them when they really don't impact the clarity makes us look snotty and picayune. And if our own screed contains errors, the laugh is on us! :whackasmilie:

Recently, I publicly corrected a guy's error here on Wacco because it was in his ad for editing/proofreading services (!), and I felt it appropriate to warn prospective customers about the quality of his skills. He then sent me a private email in which he offered to demonstrate his skills by editing any material I'd send him, but I politely declined--partly because his offer included two misspellings and a spacing error!

I allow myself a number of non-standard spellings and other "errors", such as "gonna" and "wanna", in informal writing, but when editing/proofreading, I do it all as perfectly as I can. And as you've seen, I'm hawk-eyed. So here I'll just mention that anyone seeking top-notch writing/editing/proofreading services at bargain rates should contact me:
Dixon Wragg
(707) 527-6163
[email protected]

P.S. You might like the recently started Facebook page called "Apostrophes are for contractions and possessive forms, NOT plurals!" That's one of my pet peeves, and I'm sure it's one of yours, too!

[wildflower]

Don't you mean....CLARIFY...not "CLAIRIFY"?
LoLoLoL!

Let me clairify. I called the manager on the sign while making my order. Keep in mind "Sause" was spelled by the Spanish speaking manager that worked there. Things may be more complex than you think.

For my own part I promise to try to do better.

[Califoon]

BTW, the genesis of the phrase "Occupy the language" was my internal response to a sign on the occupy Sebastopol tent- A sign who's (?) grammatical error changed it's meaning entirely from what was intended. Did anyone else see that sign? It involved God and the possessive apostrophe...All those signs are gone now, I wish I could remember exactly what it said.

[Dixon]

But, Dixon, you say
" It's fun to laugh at such errors, but making an issue of them when they really don't impact the clarity makes us look snotty and picayune."
and yet, that's what you're doing here. The clarity of Cal's message wasn't "impacted" by using a hyphen instead of a dash, for god's sake, and you know it.

Right you are, Sara.

I didn't mention this in my last email—it didn't seem necessary in that context—but there are a couple of other situations in which I correct people's errors even if they don't impact the clarity. One is when I'm doing a proofreading or editing job, of course. Another is when someone is asking for it. In this case, Cal was "asking for it" both explicitly (by inviting us to play the "let's find errors" game) and implicitly (by ridiculing others for making errors).

Sometimes I also offer correction, even when there's no clarity issue involved, when the person I'm correcting is a friend who I'm pretty sure will take the correction in the helpful spirit intended rather than as a put-down like most people do.

[Dixon]

Ahh, Dixon...I knew you'd come gunning for this one.

Only because you asked for it—in more ways than one.

Would you please refresh us as to the difference between the hyphen and the dash?

Here's a good overview:
https://cutewriting.blogspot.com/200...nd-hyphen.html
I've just recently become aware that it's more complicated now than it was when I learned the rules, in the typewriter era. Now, in the computer era, there are two types of dashes (three including the hyphen). And the authorities don't always agree on some of the details of the rules.

I have embarrassed myself in the past by not keeping up with changes in the rules, such as by insisting, in an editing job, that a sentence should be followed by two spaces. Apparently one space is now standard, for some reason having to do with computers. But I still say two spaces makes more sense! Harrumph! :negative:

As for the italicization of the PD, I'm sorry but that's a bit too anal and picayune even for me.

No more so than the errors of others that you complain about.

Thanks for the learning moment.

Believe me; it was my pleasure.

Next time I need a proof reader you're hired.

Promises, promises. I'd say you need one right now. The numerous errors in your posts in this thread would be excusable in another context, but in a thread you created to complain about people's errors...?

Seriously, I'm don't intend to be a school marm on this issue. I have no ruler to slap knuckles with...

You seemed quite happy to slap knuckles until yours started getting slapped.

...I only ask that we review what we've written before we post...I reviewed my post to the limits of my knowledge...

How do you know that the people you criticize didn't do the same?

The apostrophe thing, we are truly brothers on that one. No doubt they're, their, and there send you right up the frickin wall as well.
Come on, you must have some great and funny examples to share on this subject. Give us a laugh won't you?

You mean on the subject of apostrophizin' errors? Okay, we can start with your leaving the apostrophe off "frickin'", which is a contraction of "fricking". But I wouldn't call that funny so much as ironic.

It will help diffuse my cranky moment

I'm not sure I can be very helpful with that. Have you tried medication?

[Sue]

I think you mean to say "A sign whose grammatical error changed its meaning entirely...". Respectfully submitted.

[Sara S]

Dixon, you aren't being accurate when you say that Cal was "asking" for your laser-scalpel surgery

"by ridiculing others for making errors"

I don't think. He was expressing a mild wine-fueled (which he immediately admitted and apologized for) disgust at what he saw as a laziness in an intelligent fellow's post. My take on it.

Sara

Right you are, Sara.

I didn't mention this in my last email—it didn't seem necessary in that context—but there are a couple of other situations in which I correct people's errors even if they don't impact the clarity. One is when I'm doing a proofreading or editing job, of course. Another is when someone is asking for it. In this case, Cal was "asking for it" both explicitly (by inviting us to play the "let's find errors" game) and implicitly (by ridiculing others for making errors).

Sometimes I also offer correction, even when there's no clarity issue involved, when the person I'm correcting is a friend who I'm pretty sure will take the correction in the helpful spirit intended rather than as a put-down like most people do.

[Dixon]

Dixon, you aren't being accurate when you say that Cal was "asking" for your laser-scalpel surgery "by ridiculing others for making errors"
I don't think. He was expressing a mild wine-fueled (which he immediately admitted and apologized for) disgust at what he saw as a laziness in an intelligent fellow's post. My take on it.

We differ on that, Sara. I stand by everything I said.

One more thing: I don't see how it's at all relevant to mention that his needling of others was "wine-fueled". Do you mean to imply that that means he's not responsible for his behavior? I hope not; that would be alcoholic thinking.

[Califoon]

OK you two, cut it out. I can speak for myself Sara. Dixon, I meant absolutely no ridicule to the gentleman whatsoever. It was never mean-spirited, I was just frustrated. He was a flashpoint in an ongoing situation I had. I knew you'd get involved because I've been reading the digest for a while now and I knew that you consider the mechanics of language to be your turf. I don't really care if you want to keep needling me, it doesn't land anywhere vital. It is a reflection of you at this point. I owned up to my little mistake of form and brought it over here to encourage like-minded folks to discuss it freely. I offer no poison to this community. I never claimed to be a high scholar or professional writer. I think I apologized and worked to turn it into a positive. That is responsible. Now, pull your panties out of your crack and be nice or I'll tell everyone what size bra you wear...
Your Bro,
Cal

We differ on that, Sara. I stand by everything I said.

One more thing: I don't see how it's at all relevant to mention that his needling of others was "wine-fueled". Do you mean to imply that that means he's not responsible for his behavior? I hope not; that would be alcoholic thinking.

[Dixon]

...Now, pull your panties out of your crack and be nice...

I never stopped being nice, Cal. My involvement in this thread was motivated mainly by feeling you were being a bit rough on people who make harmless errors in writing, so I gave you a taste of your own medicine, which you were certainly asking for. Calling what you did "ridicule" may not have been the most precisely accurate wording, so I'll retract that word if you're uncomfortable with it. Let's just say you got a bit snarky with people for making errors while you yourself made similar errors, so I got similarly snarky with you as a way of, hopefully, increasing your empathy for others who make minor errors. I was responding to what you call an expression of frustration, which came across to me as a bit mean-spirited and superior. Now let's put this tempest in a teapot behind us and be friends, eh?

[Sara S]

Thanks, Cal; you said it better than I could.

OK you two, cut it out. I can speak for myself Sara. Dixon, I meant absolutely no ridicule to the gentleman whatsoever. It was never mean-spirited, I was just frustrated. He was a flashpoint in an ongoing situation I had. I knew you'd get involved because I've been reading the digest for a while now and I knew that you consider the mechanics of language to be your turf. I don't really care if you want to keep needling me, it doesn't land anywhere vital. It is a reflection of you at this point. I owned up to my little mistake of form and brought it over here to encourage like-minded folks to discuss it freely. I offer no poison to this community. I never claimed to be a high scholar or professional writer. I think I apologized and worked to turn it into a positive. That is responsible. Now, pull your panties out of your crack and be nice or I'll tell everyone what size bra you wear...
Your Bro,
Cal

[Califoon]

Dalai Lama


Warm-heartedness reinforces our self-confidence – giving us not a blind confidence, but a sense of confidence based on reason. When you have that you can act transparently, with nothing to hide! Likewise, if you are honest, the community will trust you. Trust brings friendship, as a result of which you can always feel happy. Whether you look to the right or the left, you will always be able to smile.

Here's a case where I'm really not concerned about the dashes and spaces, even though I notice them...He's a Facebook pal 8>)

Cal

[Bird Watcher]

Ah, but single spaces between sentences are now the accepted style, ever since the advent of computer word-processing. Double spaces are only necessary in print with non-proportional type, such as generated by a typewriter.

I love that, "...rivers of white." Beautiful!

I wonder what no-nothing writer and editor wrote and published the following. Surely not professionals! All those spaced em dashes! Oh, my! And single spaces between sentences. And no rivers of white. O, wondrous wordsmiths! Have at the scoundrels!

[Sara S]

from delancyplace.com:

In today's encore excerpt - certain grammatical "rules" that are widely viewed as
correct come from the invalid application of grammatical rules from Classical Latin
and Greek to the English language by British authors writing hundreds of years ago.
Two such "rules"-which have been beautifully and routinely violated by writers from
Shakespeare to Hemingway-are the prohibitions against split infinitives and ending
a sentence with a preposition:

"The first prohibition against the split infinitive occurs in an 1834 article by
an author identified only as 'P.' After that, increasingly over the course of the
nineteenth century, a 'rule' banning split infinitives began ricocheting from grammar
book to grammar book, until every self-conscious English-speaker 'knew' that to
put a word between 'to' and a verb in its infinitive was barbaric.

"The split-infinitive rule may represent mindless prescriptivism's greatest height.
It was foreign. (It was almost certainty based on the inability to split infinitives
in Latin and Greek, since they consist of one word only.) It had been routinely
violated by the great writers in English; one 1931 study found split infinitives
in English literature from every century, beginning with the fourteenth-century
epic poem Sir Gawain and the Green Knight, through wrongdoers such as William Tyndale,
Oliver Cromwell, Samuel Pepys, Daniel Defoe, John Donne, Benjamin Franklin, Samuel
Johnson, Edmund Burke, Samuel Taylor Coleridge, Elizabeth Barrett Browning, and
others.

"Rewording split infinitives can introduce ambiguity: 'He failed entirely to comprehend
it' can mean he failed entirely, or he comprehended, but not entirely. Only putting
'entirely' between 'to' and 'comprehend' can convey clearly 'he comprehended most,
but not all.' True, sentences can be reworded to work around the problem ('He failed
to comprehend everything'), but there is no reason to do so. While many prescriptive
rules falsely claim to improve readability and clarity, this one is worse, introducing
a problem that wasn't there in the first place. Yet as split infinitives in fact
became more common in nineteenth-century writing, condemnations of it grew equally
strongly. The idea that 'rules' were more important than history, elegance, or actual
practice ... held writers and speakers in terror of making them. ...

"Why is it 'wrong' to end a sentence with a preposition? ... Who, upon seeing a
cake in the office break room, says, 'For whom is this cake?' instead of 'Who's
the cake for?' Where did this rule come from?

"The answer will surprise even most English teachers: John Dryden, the seventeenth-century
poet less well known as an early, influential stickler. In a 1672 essay, he criticized
his literary predecessor Ben Jonson for writing 'The bodies that these souls were
frightened from.' Why the prepositional bee in Dryden's syntactical bonnet? This
pseudo-rule probably springs from the same source many others do: the classical
languages. Dryden said he liked to compose in Latin and translate into English,
as he valued the precision and clarity he believed Latin required of writers. The
preposition-final construction is impossible in Latin. Hence: it is impossible in
English. Confused by his logic? Linguists remain so to this day. But once Dryden
proclaimed the rule, it made its way into the first generation of English usage
books roughly a century later and thence into the minds of two hundred years of
English teachers and copy editors.

"The rule has no basis in clarity ('Who's that cake for?' is perfectly clear); history
(it was made up from whole cloth); literary tradition (Shakespeare, Jane Austen,
Samuel Johnson, Lord Byron, Henry Adams, Lewis Carroll, James Joyce, and dozens
of other great writers have violated it); or purity (it isn't native to English
but probably stolen from Latin; clause-final prepositions exist in English's cousin
languages such as Danish and Icelandic). Many people know that the Dryden rule is
nonsense. From the great usage-book writer Henry Fowler in the early twentieth century,
usage experts began to caution readers to ignore it. The New York Times flouts it.
The 'rule' should be put to death, but it may never be. Even those who know it is
ridiculous observe it for fear of annoying others."

Author: Robert Lane Greene
Title: You Are What You Speak
Publisher: Delacorte Press
Date: Copyright 2011 by Robert Lane Greene
Pages: 33-34, 24-25
You Are What You Speak: Grammar Grouches, Language Laws, and the Politics of Identity
by Robert Lane Greene by Delacorte Press
Hardcover ~ Release Date: 2011-03-08

Ah, but single spaces between sentences are now the accepted style, ever since the advent of computer word-processing. Double spaces are only necessary in print with non-proportional type, such as generated by a typewriter.

I love that, "...rivers of white." Beautiful!

[meherc]

And I hate using words that are traditionally nouns as verbs, like "to impact" instead of " the impact of" There's a lot more that have become popular in the last few years but I'm too tired to think of them now.

[Califoon]

You mean like:
We were dialoging
It's a smarter way to office
text me
I Googled you
Quit horsing around!
I think we get used to them over time or they fade away with the technology or culture that brought them.

Calvin: I like to verb words.
Hobbes: What?
Calvin: I take nouns and adjectives and use them as verbs. Remember when "access" was a thing? Now it's something you do. It got verbed. . . . Verbing weirds language.
Hobbes: Maybe we can eventually make language a complete impediment to understanding.

And I hate using words that are traditionally nouns as verbs, like "to impact" instead of " the impact of" There's a lot more that have become popular in the last few years but I'm too tired to think of them now.

["Mad" Miles]

concern(ing). As in, "That is concerning."

Which concerns me a great deal. And is a matter of concern.

[Dixon]

And I hate using words that are traditionally nouns as verbs, like "to impact" instead of " the impact of" There's a lot more that have become popular in the last few years but I'm too tired to think of them now.

I myself have no problem at all with "verbing" nouns. It seems quite natural and often enhances clarity. In any case, that's how the language evolves. Note that the language has an officially endorsed, "correct" way of "nouning" verbs—the gerund, as in "I like fishing" or "She studied singing and dancing", so why not "verb" nouns? Of course, you're entitled to feel however you feel about it. I think most of us are bothered by something harmless, in language usage as well as other areas of life.

[meherc]

That is true and it bothers me but not all that much. Not enough to even mention it ordinarily. It's just whirling around in my brain.

I myself have no problem at all with "verbing" nouns. It seems quite natural and often enhances clarity. In any case, that's how the language evolves. Note that the language has an officially endorsed, "correct" way of "nouning" verbs—the gerund, as in "I like fishing" or "She studied singing and dancing", so why not "verb" nouns? Of course, you're entitled to feel however you feel about it. I think most of us are bothered by something harmless, in language usage as well as other areas of life.

[Califoon]

That pretty much sums it up for me as well. it's inevitable.

- This all started because I was bothered by someone who started a word with 3 Rs and used scrupulous instead of its opposite, unscrupulous, in the same post without noticing any of it...I was just calling for responsibility in communication. Now that we've been hijacked to the poetry section I'm done with this one. That's not what it was meant to be.

PS- if I had had any idea how much more proofreading time this was going to cost me just to keep Dixon off my case I would have never said a thing... (but of course I'm better off for it)

Cal

That is true and it bothers me but not all that much. Not enough to even mention it ordinarily. It's just whirling around in my brain.

[Barry]

That's not what it was meant to be.

What was it meant to be? What do you think is the appropriate category for it?

I think it's gone on too long to be in General Community. I left a persistent link in GC.

[Califoon]

Dixon, perhaps you could help me with something. I have a basic confusion over the use of semi-colons and I know they must be good for something. Your thoughts? -Cal

[Califoon]

Barry, in retrospect I have decided this is a good place for it and also that it's probably a good idea that it exists at all. Where else could I complain that my spell check has decided that every corporate name MUST be capitalized?
Cal

What was it meant to be? What do you think is the appropriate category for it?

I think it's gone on too long to be in General Community. I left a persistent link in GC.

[Califoon]

Grammer is a piano I play by ear, since I seem to have been out of school the year the rules were mentioned. All I know about grammer is its infinite power. To shift the structure of a sentence alters the meaning of that sentence, as definitely and as inflexibly as the position of a camera alters the meaning of the object photographed. -Joan Didion

[Bird Watcher]

Dixon, perhaps you could help me with something. I have a basic confusion over the use of semi-colons and I know they must be good for something. Your thoughts? -Cal

Pardon me not being Dixon here, but I'm a copy editor and love questions about punctuation. Semi-colons join two phrases that could grammatically stand alone as complete sentences, but for reasons that Joan Didion (and all of us) might not be able to explain, it's desirable to keep them together. -Pam