Reporter seeking "unbiased" information on Chemtrails

[podfish]

A suggestion: If you see a jet leaving behind a contrail, and you think it might be a sinister "chemtrail", just use FlightAware and look it up. From the location overhead and the direction of travel, you can identify the flight on the map.

that just means the airlines are complicit...

[Iolchan]

Dane Jasper wrote:
Zero.

Posting random pictures of jet airliner condensation trails doesn't mean anything .

Excuse me, Dane, but these photographs, taken by a friend with a digital camera from my deck two weeks ago, were not "random pictures of jet airliner condensation trails." And for several reasons:

In the first place, these photographs were taken in a Series; admittedly without a tripod, nevertheless, in the manner of time-lapse photography, about two minutes apart. Thus, they are not "random" at all. Furthermore, the jets which were laying these trails in the sky, on a warm day, at a relatively low altitude, towards the end of Indian Summer, were not your everyday average "jet airliners," either.

Jet airliners - which are passenger planes, and fly from one destination to another - are engaged in business. Jet airliners do not fly back and forth, and turn around, again and again, leaving "vapor trails" that fan into faux clouds. But the planes which produced these linear, wispy, false clouds the day these pictures were taken were doing just that...

And otherwise, it was - or would have been - a completely cloudless day. As it developed, the whole eastern sky, above the county line, became covered with a bank of clouds that might appear, to the untrained eye - or those who choose to be in denial of this phenomenon - as either Cirrus, or Nimbus, clouds. But such clouds are too low in altitude to be Cirrus clouds. Also, unlike Nimbus clouds; these are clouds without rain.

Indeed, clouds that are emitted out of the belly of C-100's are faux clouds - false clouds - just as phony as a three-dollar bill, or fast food from MacDonalds or Burger King. Lawsuits, anyone?

Look : you don't have to believe me; and those of you who find this Subject to be frightening =OR= disturbing to your comfort-zone, can find at least a dozen reasons to disbelieve my witness; I am sure...

Nevertheless, as I wrote earlier in this thread, I have seen thousands of these false clouds, since I became aware of the phenomenon of chemtrails back in the 1990's. And you have, too. All of you have; that is, if you actually look up. But, as Bob Dylan moaned, long ago:

"How many times must a man look up, before he can see the sky?"

And, as Solomon also intoned :

"He who observes the wind shall not sow;
and he that regards the clouds shall not reap."

to which I would add the corollary,

"He who spends too much time in front
of computer screen {or in commuter traffic}
shall not find time to observe the clouds."


Cirrusly,
& Seriously,

Mark Walter Evans

p.s.,

Here's a tidbit;
a Lecture,
by a cogent Woman:
Rosalind Peterson

[danejasper]

This brief video may help explain condensation trails: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IW9j-_1haGk

When fuel is burned, you get a few things - CO2, H2O (water), and carbon particulate. The carbon particulate is a great spot for water droplets to precipitate, and the water itself is a bit like when you exhale on a cold day - you get a bit of "steam" on a cold morning.

A jet engine burns lots of fuel, putting out water vapor in a high-altitude environment that might be -30 to -50 degrees. This is a prime environment for a sort of steam trail.

Now - why do they sometimes form in parallel lines, or even a grid pattern? Commercial jets generally travel along jetways, paths between intersections as dictated by air traffic control. At the same time, there is wind - so imagine a jet moving from S to N (say, LA to Sacramento) with wind from the West. As each jet flies by, it leaves a contrail, which slowly moves toward the East with the wind. A bit later, another jet flies the same jetway, leaving a parallel track, a bit Westward of the previous one. Repeat, and you can end up with parallel tracks.

A grid is even possible, if for example wind is from a 45 degree angle to two jetways which intersect at a 90 degree angle. So, imagine a jetway running N-S, and one E-W, while you've got wind from the NW (45 degrees to the two jetways). As each jet goes by, it leaves a contrail which moves toward the SE. If there are more than one in each jetway, you can end up with condensation trails that intersect at 90 degree angles, and which are in parallel tracks, forming a sort of "grid" pattern.

Contrails are no mystery - it's really basic science which anyone who's exhaled on a cold morning can understand. And no, it's not weather control or government mind control. "Chemtrails" are just a boogie-man, made up by someone who doesn't understand science and aviation.

-DJ

[Philip Tymon]

Dane,

I really appreciate that you take the time to explain these things to these loopy folks who have no common sense and can’t seem to engage in basic rational thinking. I just don’t have the patience.

After your last e-mail I tried talking some sense into a few people who had just seen the movie “Thrive” and were telling me all about aliens and how they’ve affected Earth’s history and the “galactic perspective”. My attempts to talk some common sense to them were met with extreme hostility. They said I was “close-minded”. (Well, I am very open-minded to evidence.)

I am less and less thinking it is all right for people to spout utter nonsense and woo-woo and stupid conspiracy theories when we face so many real problems that need all of our energy and focus such as catastrophic climate change and the destruction of American democracy by gigantic corporations and you know the rest. Only rational thinking can ever hope to solve these problems, not nutjob hysteria or my-God-is-stronger-than-your-God stuff. (Have you listened to Caroline Casey lately--- she literally bemoans the “reality police”.)

I almost wonder whether we need to form some sort of Rational Thinking Squads to challenge this growing anti-enlightenment, anti-rationality culture and say it’s just not alright.

Anyway, just want to say that I appreciate that you take the time and make the effort to respond to these folks. I just get frustrated and disgusted.

Best,

Philip Tymon

This brief video may help explain condensation trails: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IW9j-_1haGk

When fuel is burned, you get a few things - CO2, H2O (water), and carbon particulate. The carbon particulate is a great spot for water droplets to precipitate, and the water itself is a bit like when you exhale on a cold day - you get a bit of "steam" on a cold morning.

A jet engine burns lots of fuel, putting out water vapor in a high-altitude environment that might be -30 to -50 degrees. This is a prime environment for a sort of steam trail.

Now - why do they sometimes form in parallel lines, or even a grid pattern? Commercial jets generally travel along jetways, paths between intersections as dictated by air traffic control. At the same time, there is wind - so imagine a jet moving from S to N (say, LA to Sacramento) with wind from the West. As each jet flies by, it leaves a contrail, which slowly moves toward the East with the wind. A bit later, another jet flies the same jetway, leaving a parallel track, a bit Westward of the previous one. Repeat, and you can end up with parallel tracks.

A grid is even possible, if for example wind is from a 45 degree angle to two jetways which intersect at a 90 degree angle. So, imagine a jetway running N-S, and one E-W, while you've got wind from the NW (45 degrees to the two jetways). As each jet goes by, it leaves a contrail which moves toward the SE. If there are more than one in each jetway, you can end up with condensation trails that intersect at 90 degree angles, and which are in parallel tracks, forming a sort of "grid" pattern.

Contrails are no mystery - it's really basic science which anyone who's exhaled on a cold morning can understand. And no, it's not weather control or government mind control. "Chemtrails" are just a boogie-man, made up by someone who doesn't understand science and aviation.

-DJ

[Dixon]

Hey, phltymon, you sound like someone who would appreciate my monthly WaccoBB column "The Gospel According to Dixon", wherein I attempt to inoculate the Wacco community with an appreciation for rationality/critical thinking, etc. If you haven't seen it yet, check it out. Ten installments have been published so far, with the eleventh coming out shortly. Links to them can be found here. I look forward to getting your feedback on my effort to increase rationality in our community.

[Orm Embar]

As someone who has a curious attitude and has always appreciated the process of scientific inquiry, I have yet to hear or read a satisfactory explanation of my contrail observations. The video link demonstrates how variations in atmospheric movement and stability might effect lingering contrails. I have wondered why they linger in the first place. They always quickly dissipated. Then some started lingering . . . I observed this maybe 12 years ago.
I have heard that we may be seeing these contrails linger because a large volume of moisture has been introduce into altitudes where it would had never before been introduced, due to heavy air traffic in recent decades. The moisture-saturated air slows the dissipation process. This explanation may explain why I have seen lingering contrails in the last decade, when I did not observe them before.

And yet . . . None of the above explains an observation I made a few years ago. While I am not out combing the net for explanations, nor am I prone to conspiracy theories, I am still curious. Can someone explain this:

I watched an commercial airline-sized plane traverse the sky and produce a lingering contrail. Another similar sized plane crossed the sky at the same time and passed through the lingering contrail at a perpendicular angle. This passage cut a path through the lingering contrail and made some fun swirls. (there is much beauty to observe in the sky!) The second plane was at a close enough altitude to the first plane that it sliced a clean swath through the first plane's lingering contrail, but the second plane left a contrail that evaporated quickly. In addition, a plane was flying at a much higher altitude (relative to the others) at the same time and it's contrail dissipated quickly.

Why did that one contrail linger?

This brief video may help explain condensation trails: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IW9j-_1haGk

Contrails are no mystery - it's really basic science which anyone who's exhaled on a cold morning can understand. And no, it's not weather control or government mind control. "Chemtrails" are just a boogie-man, made up by someone who doesn't understand science and aviation.

-DJ

[podfish]

...Why did that one contrail linger?

several possible answers:
1) there are differences in the aerodynamics of the two planes that affect the air, and thus the condensation, in their wakes
2) there are differences in the exhaust gasses coming out of the engines (the engines might be different, the fuels might be different)
3) the planes may be close enough in altitude that their wakes interact (swirling one) but far apart enough that the gasses cause different visual trails (thinner or drier or cooler air behind one of them)
4) secret chemicals are being emitted by one or both
5) invisible sky-creatures are following one of them, breathing in the gasses and eliminating them from the atmosphere
6) invisible sky-creatures are following one of them, and you're see the effects of its last meal
7) the trails behind them are oriented differently and because they act as polarized light filters, the effects are different when the plane goes in a different direction
8) the visual effects are different because the perspective of the observer is different; if the trail crosses the field of view it looks thinner than if it's perpendicular

Some of the above sound scientific but actually aren't; some sound imaginary but can't be proven false. The planes are really far away, there are tremendous limitations to the quality of observations made from the ground, and it's essentially impossible to collect any data other than its visual effects. You can't tell what chemicals were there before the plane passed by, much less what chemicals are there afterward. You can't tell what temperature or moisture is or was. So it's all just fun speculation. There really is no reason it can't be some chemical being disbursed, but there's really no evidence to support that it might be.

[danejasper]

several possible answers:
3) the planes may be close enough in altitude that their wakes interact (swirling one) but far apart enough that the gasses cause different visual trails (thinner or drier or cooler air behind one of them)

As a pilot, I can comment on this one a bit. When large jets travel, their "wake" is a sort of downdraft, which moves down and back. (Small planes can be tossed about violently, so you should always pass a large jet's wake well above if you are behind!)

The smaller the jet, the less downdraft, and the smaller the wake. So, a smaller jet could pass by at 26,000ft, where an atmospheric layer was conducive to a contrail, then for example a larger one might cross at 29,000ft - 3,000ft above, where for example an atmospheric layer might be less prone to contrail formation, but the larger jet's downdraft could disturb the smaller jet's contrail. This would result in something like what the poster described; a contrail disturbed by the passage of another jet, which itself did not leave a contrail.

Thinking of it another way, why do clouds often form at one elevation and not another? They have a "bottom" (which pilots call a "ceiling", as it would be if you flew under it) and a "top" (which pilots would say as "tops at 25,000ft", as in what altitude you must climb to get over the cloud and into clear air.)

In other words, why does a cloud not go from ground level to the top of the atmosphere? The reason is temperatures and moisture levels at various altitudes. Between the "ceiling" and the "tops" (inside the cloud), conditions are right for cloud formation. Below and above, they're not. It might be too warm (warm air can hold more moisture), or too dry. Temperature as you climb normally "lapses" (declines), but you can also have an inversion, where warm air is over cold. There's a ton of complexity in the behavior of the atmosphere, which is why the weather man is so often wrong.

Read up on "dew point" for more on the topic of atmospheric saturation and temperature. This is key to contrail formation; if the air is near the dew point (saturation for a given temperature), the additional moisture of the jet exhaust will result in a contrail.

-Dane

[Orm Embar]

several possible answers:
There really is no reason it can't be some chemical being disbursed, but there's really no evidence to support that it might be.

I agree . . . interesting stuff to ponder once in a while. It sure would be great to have enough resources to test things out for myself and possibly answer my own questions. In the mean time the daily tasks of sheltering, feeding, clothing and transporting a family fill most of my thoughts.

: )

[Orm Embar]

Read up on "dew point" for more on the topic of atmospheric saturation and temperature. This is key to contrail formation; if the air is near the dew point (saturation for a given temperature), the additional moisture of the jet exhaust will result in a contrail.

-Dane

Thanks. I am sure this information will help others who haven't learned about atmospheric variations, dew point, temperature, wind, etc. I tried to keep my post as short as possible, therefore I did not include my familiarity with inversion layers, how our weather systems work, etc. I also realize that it is hard to trust that I have a good observational sense of altitude. This is something that could actually be tested if we can find some time. (after the New Year, please)

Of course, I could be wrong, but what I observed did not look like a downdraft slicing the lingering contrail. I've seen that happen. The path-clearing happened immediately, starting with the nose of the aircraft. There was no delay. Not even a minuscule delay, which is what I see when planes fly close to a contrail. It was also a clean slice. The swirling happened in the wake of the plane, after the plane made a clear cut across the trail.

I know atmospheric layering is pretty distinct. I've walked through an inversion layer while hiking downhill. (fun!) The change is almost immediate. Maybe these aircraft had only a 20 foot difference in altitude and were in completely different atmospheric zones?

As a pilot, have you noticed a difference in contrails over the last couple decades?

[Peace Voyager]

Why is it that folks like Dane J and Mark I are so quick to write this off?

Just so disconnected to nature you don't notice what's different in today's sky, vs the ones from before the last decade; you are afraid to learn the truth; or you know the truth, and you are one of the ones working to cover it up?

State Senator Leno knows it's real but won't talk; Tom Roth, who used to work for Congresswoman Woolsey, and now Noreen Evans, also knows but won't say much.

They aren't just using silver iodide; they also use vast amounts of aluminum and boron in GeoEngineering.

What I have noticed, besides how much weather modification has escalated ever since the last Governor did not get the water bond he wanted; is that the earthworms, which have always come out when it rains here at my Sebastopol condo, are nowhere to be seen this year.

If the earthworms are killed off, our soils will not get aerated and fertilized. Do you understand the consequences of that!?

When I told this to someone at the last Farmer's market, they just made fun of me.

Now along with the bees in peril; I'm very concerned about our species; especially with so many so fast to insult the messengers regarding the causes.

This was in Saturday's Press Democrat:

Santa Barbara County to try cloud seeding

The Associated Press
Posted: 11/25/2011 10:57:10 AM PST
Updated: 11/25/2011 10:57:10 AM PST


SANTA BARBARA, Calif.—Santa Barbara County has plans to begin cloud seeding over the next five years in an effort to replenish local watersheds.

Santa Barbara County Water Agency manager Matt Naftaly tells the San Luis Obispo Tribune (https://bit.ly/s8oAuR) that they will use planes to disperse silver iodide vapor into the atmosphere during winter storms to promote the formation of raindrops.

Naftaly says cloud seeding can increase rainfall by as much as 20 percent. The goal is to increase rainfall in local watersheds, but portions of San Luis Obispo County could also be affected.
The cloud seeding program costs about $300,000 a year and is paid for by the Santa Barbara County Water Agency and the various water districts that would benefit from it.
———
Information from: The Tribune, https://www.sanluisobispo.com

[Philip Tymon]

I'm glad that Dane and Peter both gave detailed answers so I wouldn't have to. So I'll just add two things:

1. You can't accurately "eyeball" stuff that's happening thousands of feet away in the sky. The human eye just is not designed to do it-- you are trying to interpret what is, essentially, a two-dimensional projection back into it's three dimensional reality, but our eyes are not engineered to do that accurately. As a result, people often think they see something of a certain size or distance in the sky, but they are often wrong. (A related phenomenon is observing the size of the moon at the horizon and when it is directly overhead--- it looks huge on the horizon and much smaller directly overhead. Do we attribute this to aliens or the government or the Illuminati manipulating the size of the Moon for nefarious purposes or the more common sense explanation that our eye/brain connection it simply not equipped to measure the size of the Moon accurately because it is too far away and so it misinterprets what it is seeing?)

2. My first housemate in Sonoma county was also the first licensed hot-air balloon pilot in the county. I crewed for him on a number of occasions and observed how he did things. Before launching the large hot-air balloon, he would send up a small party-sized balloon and carefully watch it. At various altitudes the wind would be blowing in different directions. Sometimes an altitude shift of just 50 or 100 feet would produce a dramatic shift in wind direction and/or speed. I got a sense for the vagaries of the wind that the average person may not have. And this was at 6 am in the morning when the air is relatively stable (one reason balloonists launch so early). Later in the day, the winds are much more chaotic and unstable.

So when you saw a plane "intersect" another plane's contrail, even if it was just a hundred or so feet above or below, it could be in a significantly different wind environment.

Or it could be a huge, secret government conspiracy (being conducted right in front of us, so we can all see it) for who-knows- what-nefarious secret government reasons. I'm sure that Dick Cheney and Michelle Obama are right now toasting their success at fooling all of us.

I agree . . . interesting stuff to ponder once in a while. It sure would be great to have enough resources to test things out for myself and possibly answer my own questions. In the mean time the daily tasks of sheltering, feeding, clothing and transporting a family fill most of my thoughts.

: )

[Peace Voyager]

Dane,

I really appreciate that you take the time to explain these things to these loopy folks who have no common sense and can’t seem to engage in basic rational thinking. I just don’t have the patience.

After your last e-mail I tried talking some sense into a few people who had just seen the movie “Thrive” and were telling me all about aliens and how they’ve affected Earth’s history and the “galactic perspective”. My attempts to talk some common sense to them were met with extreme hostility. They said I was “close-minded”. (Well, I am very open-minded to evidence.)

I am less and less thinking it is all right for people to spout utter nonsense and woo-woo and stupid conspiracy theories when we face so many real problems that need all of our energy and focus such as catastrophic climate change and the destruction of American democracy by gigantic corporations and you know the rest. Only rational thinking can ever hope to solve these problems, not nutjob hysteria or my-God-is-stronger-than-your-God stuff. (Have you listened to Caroline Casey lately--- she literally bemoans the “reality police”.)

I almost wonder whether we need to form some sort of Rational Thinking Squads to challenge this growing anti-enlightenment, anti-rationality culture and say it’s just not alright.

Anyway, just want to say that I appreciate that you take the time and make the effort to respond to these folks. I just get frustrated and disgusted.

Best,

Philip Tymon

For someone like you, as I remember, who works for an important organic farm operation and educational facility (OAEC); I am very dismayed Phil, at your lack of concern.

Most adults know why a jet makes a vapor trail, no science lesson needed.

Why you and the others cannot see the difference from a vapor trail which dissipates, and one that grows into an enormous sky cover is disturbing. Why such abnormal clouds and sky white outs taking place in Sonoma County almost daily, with photos of the same from around the world, would not wake up your curiosity, is quite alarming.

[danejasper]

Of course, I could be wrong, but what I observed did not look like a downdraft slicing the lingering contrail. I've seen that happen. The path-clearing happened immediately, starting with the nose of the aircraft. There was no delay. Not even a minuscule delay, which is what I see when planes fly close to a contrail. It was also a clean slice. The swirling happened in the wake of the plane, after the plane made a clear cut across the trail.

I know atmospheric layering is pretty distinct. I've walked through an inversion layer while hiking downhill. (fun!) The change is almost immediate. Maybe these aircraft had only a 20 foot difference in altitude and were in completely different atmospheric zones?

As a pilot, have you noticed a difference in contrails over the last couple decades?

The wake of a plane moves down and back - so if in fact the nose of the new plan cut right through the contrail of the plane that left the contrail, the first plane would have been higher than the one that subsequently intersected it. The second plane's wake will be behind and below it, thousands of feet lower.

Keep in mind also the difference between the size of engines, number of engines, level of thrust, etc - all influence the amount of water vapor in the exhaust.

Regarding your last question, no, the only difference is that there is more air traffic, more people travelling, and thus more contrails.

It's neat to be up there, particularly around the Bay Area, as they descend in to SFO and OAK. You can see the big "heavies" and interact with them (from a respectful distance) as they come in to the airports. There are no C-130s trailing plumes of chemicals, just lots of passenger jets.

-Dane

[Iolchan]

danejasper wrote: This brief video may help explain condensation trails: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IW9j-_1haGk

When fuel is burned, you get a few things - CO2, H2O (water), and carbon particulate. The carbon particulate is a great spot for water droplets to precipitate, and the water itself is a bit like when you exhale on a cold day - you get a bit of "steam" on a cold morning.

A jet engine burns lots of fuel, putting out water vapor in a high-altitude environment that might be -30 to -50 degrees. This is a prime environment for a sort of steam trail.

Now - why do they sometimes form in parallel lines, or even a grid pattern? Commercial jets generally travel along jetways, paths between intersections as dictated by air traffic control. At the same time, there is wind - so imagine a jet moving from S to N (say, LA to Sacramento) with wind from the West. As each jet flies by, it leaves a contrail, which slowly moves toward the East with the wind. A bit later, another jet flies the same jetway, leaving a parallel track, a bit Westward of the previous one. Repeat, and you can end up with parallel tracks.

A grid is even possible, if for example wind is from a 45 degree angle to two jetways which intersect at a 90 degree angle. So, imagine a jetway running N-S, and one E-W, while you've got wind from the NW (45 degrees to the two jetways). As each jet goes by, it leaves a contrail which moves toward the SE. If there are more than one in each jetway, you can end up with condensation trails that intersect at 90 degree angles, and which are in parallel tracks, forming a sort of "grid" pattern.

Contrails are no mystery - it's really basic science which anyone who's exhaled on a cold morning can understand. And no, it's not weather control or government mind control. "Chemtrails" are just a boogie-man, made up by someone who doesn't understand science and aviation.

-DJ

So, Dane, could you please explain { from the following pictures} what the planes which laid these "contrails" which fanned out into cloud formations were doing? Because they sure weren't flying from LA to Sacramento.

Attached Thumbnails (click for larger view)

I think people would find, were they to take the time to actually observe the sky for a few hours on a day when chemtrails are being laid, that it is the same planes that are flying back and forth, and in criss-cross patterns. Sometimes, they do circles and loops, as these photographs demonstrate.

Furthermore, if you take the time to take your binoculars out of their case, and use them, you will also observe - in most cases - that the jets that are leaving the trails that fan out into clouds are not passenger planes. Generally, they are C-100's and the like: Air Force, cargo planes.

More:

Catherine Austin-Fitts on the subject of Chemtrails:

https://solari.com/podcast/Solari_Report_Digest-11.m4a

Rosalind Peterson, on the subject of Chemtrails

Would you guys care to comment on what these two wise women have to say ?
=OR=
Are they just "confused," crazy, delusional, ignorant, "loopy" - and the like?

danejasper wrote:

"Chemtrails" are just a boogie-man, made up by someone who doesn't understand science and aviation.

Someone?

[danejasper]

So, Dane, could you please explain { from the following pictures} what the planes which laid these "contrails" which fanned out into cloud formations were doing? Because they sure weren't flying from LA to Sacramento.

Attached Thumbnails (click for larger view)

I think people would find, were they to take the time to actually observe the[FONT=Book Antiqua][SIZE=3] sky for a few hours on a day when chemtrails are being laid, that it is the same planes that are flying back and forth, and in criss-cross patterns. Sometimes, they do circles and loops, as these photographs demonstrate.

They are in a hold. When traffic is inbound to an airport that is busy, air traffic control will put them in a hold somewhere to space things out. These can be part of a published instrument approach, or in arbitrary locations. Often you'll see jets holding over waypoints such as VORs.

If you'd like to learn more about the skies above you, and the navigation that pilots are engaged in, you can obtain a map of the region by visiting the fixed base operator at the Santa Rosa airport, and buy a Northern California sectional map. They are about $7 for a really pretty and colorful paper map.

Here's an image of a sectional map, showing a VOR in the middle; it's the triangular thing with the circle around it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:VOR_on_sectional.gif

There is a VOR at most airports, plus various waypoints around the country. Locally for example at Pt. Reyes there is one, so sometimes you'll see jets holding over there prior to heading in to SFO or OAK.

ATC can have you hold over pretty much any waypoint, but generally it's an airport or VOR as that's easiest.

These two pages will make it clearer:

IFR Holding Pattern Entries Made Simple
How to...fly a hold

Your pic on the right is a textbook hold, you'll note the "racetrack" pattern. The one on the left is a poorly executed hold entry; I think he should have entered teardrop, but ended up having to do a 360 degree turn instead.

Regarding your assertion that the planes leaving "chemtrails" are military planes, I can assure you that I've seen passenger jets AND military jets leaving contrails. Just because condensation forms due to exhaust coming out the back-end of a C-130 doesn't mean it's any different than coming out of a 747 with the same sort of engine. They're jets dude, and they output moist and sooty jet exhaust!

(Now, we SHOULD be complaining about the CO2, global warming, etc - that's real science and a legitimate threat to us all, not mind-control woo-woo!)

Bonus points - I just found the very image you posted on the right above, here: https://contrailscience.com/racetrack-contrails/ - where the poster also explains holds. Doh!

Wow, NASA even offers a "contrails forecast", using data about the temperature and water content at various altitudes: https://www-angler.larc.nasa.gov/cgi...33&cmd=latest#

Side note: ever seen "Pushing Tin"? Neat movie.

-Dane

[Iolchan]

Thank you, Dane, for your swift, and lengthy answer. Next Question: Can you explain the Phenomenon of why the word "Chemtrails" has come into existence in the last twenty years or so, other than attributing it to the category of "Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds?"

danejasper wrote:

"Chemtrails" are just a boogie-man, made up by someone who doesn't understand science and aviation.

We, who think that the word "Chemtrails" has a certain legitimacy, {as a phenomenal category distinct from phenomena described by the words "clouds" and "contrails"} are not so quick to castigate those who do not perceive the distinction between natural clouds, classical "contrails" and Chemtrails, as "confused," crazy, delusional, ignorant, or "loopy." We are merely amazed that you folks are not able to perceive the distinctions. And that, somehow, you are not in touch with your own train of Memory...

Because, truly, there were no "Chemtrails" prior to 1984.

The record does not show that the little cabal of nay-sayers who have posted on this thread are qualified either as therapists or psychologists to aver that people who think they see "chemtrails" are either ignorant or crazy.

Turning the issue of "Contrails versus Chemtrails" into a psychological issue, and asserting that "believers" in Chemtrails are either deluded or ignorant, is a technique of discrediting. Such a tactic does not follow from a pure pursuit of Science. It flows, instead, from cant, and demagoguery.

Again, I request that you guys
- and you are all Men -
watch, or listen to the following:


Catherine Austin-Fitts on the subject of Chemtrails:
https://solari.com/podcast/Solari_Report_Digest-11.m4a

Rosalind Peterson, on the subject of Chemtrails

Would you guys care to comment on what these two wise women have to say ?
=OR=
Are they just "confused," crazy, delusional, ignorant, "loopy" - and the like?

*

Mark Walter Evans

["Mad" Miles]

Asked and answered Mark. See my first reply in this thread. #17. Calling people names is not an argument, by the way.

[danejasper]

Thank you, Dane, for your swift, and lengthy answer. Next Question: Can you explain the Phenomenon of why the word "Chemtrails" has come into existence in the last twenty years or so, other than attributing it to the category of "Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds?"

Nope, I've got no other explanation. You've pegged it.

Contrails have formed behind jets since jets the beginning of the "jet era", the late 1950's. The "phenomenon" of the word "chemtrails" can be attributed to people trying to explain what they don't understand (atmospheric condensation, holding patterns, etc.)

It's similar to how those in the dark ages attributed disease to spirits or "vapors", or thought that bloodletting would purge evil spirits. When you (as an individual or a society) do not understand what's going on around you, there is a tendency to make things up in order to create a zone of comfort.

The alternative is to accept that you don't know what you don't know, and to make an effort to learn the facts - rather than the woo-woo.

-Dane

[Iolchan]

"Mad" Miles wrote:

Asked and answered Mark. See my first reply in this thread. #17. Calling people names is not an argument, by the way.

Names? Which names are you referring to, Miles? : "nay-sayers" ? "guys" ? "Men" ?

All of which are benign terms, in comparison with the aspersions of Madness, Delusion, and Ignorance that your party has continually used in your invectives against those whom you typify as "believers" on this thread.

Again, I request that you guys
- and you are all Men -
watch, or listen to the following:


Catherine Austin-Fitts on the subject of Chemtrails:
https://solari.com/podcast/Solari_Report_Digest-11.m4a

Rosalind Peterson, on the subject of Chemtrails

Would you guys care to comment on what these two wise women have to say ?
=OR=
Are they just "confused," crazy, delusional, ignorant, "loopy" - and the like?

*

[danejasper]

Would you guys care to comment on what these two wise women have to say ?
=OR=
Are they just "confused," crazy, delusional, ignorant, "loopy" - and the like?

Bingo!

-DJ

[danejasper]

Mark, you might enjoy:

https://youtu.be/qqWAosLWMQs

Lots of folks have posted videos on Youtube which might help you understand the science and facts behind contrail formation.

Or, you can take normal things like condensation and holding patterns and ascribe mystical and magical beliefs to them.

But, that's really not rational.

-DJ

[Peace Voyager]

Bingo!

-DJ

So even after posting the article on cloud seeding in Santa Barbara; some are still in denial?

Funny how the article states they're doing it to protect the watershed; without considering what the concentration of the materials involved will do to everyone's habitat, or the consequences of different region's weather modification programs impacting each other.

The real reason is more likely that, the cities have not learned to live within their limits of water supply. So as usual, they use artificial means, to support unsustainable growth with complete disregard for the consequences.

Climate change is man-made, both as a consequence of our lifestyles, and just like with GMO's, by trying to out-engineer Nature, instead of just adjusting our lives to do less harm.

The "ignorant" description fits those on this list who are IGNORING what is in plain sight; and IGNORING the facts which support what is really going on. Is this willful, or just lazy? Do the naysayers own stock in these faux Green technologies?

I doubt they reviewed the information on the Rosalind Peterson website, www.californiaskywatch.com. Perhaps even my older post, which mentions she worked for the County of Mendocino on crop loss assessment. Having spent time with her; I know she does not fit the adjectives mentioned above.

FYI, I grew up on Air Force bases; took the aviation course at SRJC, and flying lessons from Dragonfly Aviation at the SC Airport, in the early 80's; also have been painting and photographing clouds for decades.

Vapor trails still look just the same; but our sky has changed because of the many, varied GeoEngineering methods!!!

The worms have not come out during the rains this year, as they have for the last 3 I've been here. I used to scoop them up by the dozen to relocate them in my container garden, before they were flushed down the storm drain. Not one has appeared this year.



This is not delusion, it's astute observation!

The lack of it, from those who deem themselves rooted in science, is astounding.

Anyone here able to make a time lapse video on heavy spray days?

[Iolchan]

iolchan wrote:

Thank you, Dane, for your swift, and lengthy answer. Next Question: Can you explain the Phenomenon of why the word "Chemtrails" has come into existence in the last twenty years or so, other than attributing it to the category of "Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds?"

danejasper wrote:

Nope, I've got no other explanation. You've pegged it.

Contrails have formed behind jets since jets the beginning of the "jet era", the late 1950's. The "phenomenon" of the word "chemtrails" can be attributed to people trying to explain what they don't understand (atmospheric condensation, holding patterns, etc.)

It's similar to how those in the dark ages attributed disease to spirits or "vapors", or thought that bloodletting would purge evil spirits. When you (as an individual or a society) do not understand what's going on around you, there is a tendency to make things up in order to create a zone of comfort.

The alternative is to accept that you don't know what you don't know, and to make an effort to learn the facts - rather than the woo-woo.

-Dane

Zone of Comfort?

It is hardly "comforting" to entertain - even for a moment - the notion that rogue elements in the Federal government could be, or are, doing one iota of all the things that are alleged to be happening, regarding this issue of Chemtrails. So I hardly think that this point of your argument holds water. On the other hand, I completely agree with this sentence:

danejasper wrote:

The alternative is to accept that you don't know what you don't know, and to make an effort to learn the facts - rather than the woo-woo.

- With the hope that you, Dane, and you, All, might learn to realize that this applies to you, too. I don't claim to know what is going on with these chemtrail-clouds, and I have stated as much, repeatedly, and mildly, on this thread.

I have been accused, in this thread of "fear-mongering." I did not answer the charge at the time, because to me, it was absurd. Because fear-mongering, like "going about willfully to deceive," implies a degree of malicious intent, and I know, in my own heart, that this is not the case... I also know, from experience, how hard it is to maintain a position of active opposition to the oligarchy. The powers that be have developed Silent weapons for Quiet wars; and they use them.

Sebtown1968 wrote:

What you are doing is far from "Reporting." It is fear mongering. You are merely linking sources from dubious websites that draw wild conclusions form anecodotal evidence. What I am simply doing is calling "Bulls%&t" and attempting to balance this discussion with a sprinkling of sanity. Others on this thread have made similar attempts. Not to change your mind- as it is already convinced, but to offer a balanced discussion for others who stumble on this thread and have not formed opinions on this matter.

So which is it - Comfort or Fear - that this topic evokes in People? Get it straight. I, for one, derive neither comfort, or pleasure from the subject. It's a hard subject; an unpleasant one.

But, even if I were blind, and could not verify the existence of this new phenomena with my own eyes, >which I can do, and have done< I would maintain, from a philosophical standpoint - from a position of Phenomenology - that the simple and mere existence of this new word, Chemtrails, {concerning which, there are upwards of seven million, two hundred eighty thousands hits on Google, at this date} is significant, in and of itself, and can not be dismissed and swept away so readily, and blithely as you have done, Dane. With all due respect.

- Mark

[jbox]

Zone of Comfort?

It is hardly "comforting" to entertain - even for a moment - the notion that rogue elements in the Federal government could be, or are, doing one iota of all the things that are alleged to be happening, regarding this issue of Chemtrails. So I hardly think that this point of your argument holds water. On the other hand, I completely agree with this sentence:

- With the hope that you, Dane, and you, All, might learn to realize that this applies to you, too. I don't claim to know what is going on with these chemtrail-clouds, and I have stated as much, repeatedly, and mildly, on this thread.

I have been accused, in this thread of "fear-mongering." I did not answer the charge at the time, because to me, it was absurd. Because fear-mongering, like "going about willfully to deceive," implies a degree of malicious intent, and I know, in my own heart, that this is not the case... I also know, from experience, how hard it is to maintain a position of active opposition to the oligarchy. The powers that be have developed Silent weapons for Quiet wars; and they use them.


So which is it - Comfort or Fear - that this topic evokes in People? Get it straight. I, for one, derive neither comfort, or pleasure from the subject. It's a hard subject; an unpleasant one.

But, even if I were blind, and could not verify the existence of this new phenomena with my own eyes, >which I can do, and have done< I would maintain, from a philosophical standpoint - from a position of Phenomenology - that the simple and mere existence of this new word, Chemtrails, {concerning which, there are upwards of seven million, two hundred eighty thousands hits on Google, at this date} is significant, in and of itself, and can not be dismissed and swept away so readily, and blithely as you have done, Dane. With all due respect.

- Mark

Hi Mark,

I guess for me it's just not enough to say contrails have become chemtrails and it's gotta be true. I remember when I was a kid and I looked into the sky and saw jets leaving contrails. These didn't dissipate in a minute or two but lasted a long time. So far nobody has answered the essential questions like who is doing the spraying, who is paying for it, why is it being done, and why does it span many years with many political changes taking place. Why has there been no compelling evidence of it, why hasn't it become a huge scandal, why hasn't anyone come forth to "out" the practice who is credible with incontravertable evidence.

A worldwide conspiracy to foist chemtrails upon an unsuspecting public just seems so laughable, especially when they can so easily be explained as simple contrails. Give me some evidence and I'll listen but until then the scientific reasoning of folks like Dane have the upper hand. Do you at least grant that he answered your questions about your "photographic evidence"?

[Peace Voyager]

Hi Mark,

I guess for me it's just not enough to say contrails have become chemtrails and it's gotta be true. I remember when I was a kid and I looked into the sky and saw jets leaving contrails. These didn't dissipate in a minute or two but lasted a long time. So far nobody has answered the essential questions like who is doing the spraying, who is paying for it, why is it being done, and why does it span many years with many political changes taking place. Why has there been no compelling evidence of it, why hasn't it become a huge scandal, why hasn't anyone come forth to "out" the practice who is credible with incontravertable evidence.

A worldwide conspiracy to foist chemtrails upon an unsuspecting public just seems so laughable, especially when they can so easily be explained as simple contrails. Give me some evidence and I'll listen but until then the scientific reasoning of folks like Dane have the upper hand. Do you at least grant that he answered your questions about your "photographic evidence"?

Aside from having hundreds of my own photos as evidence; I researched. Please do the same. Just google Weather Modification and Geo Engineering.

(Sad the science minded here fall short on doing simple research.)

When I did this a few years ago, I saw the firms who were under contract to do this, and have advertised for at least 10 years that they have been doing business with local governments and folks like PG & E (to increase hydro power production by increasing the snow pack.)

Then look at how Congress made climate change a national security issue in 2006. Even though it's known that the Navy and Air Force are involved, the can keep the cloak of secrecy going.

Just start making a sky observance diary for yourself. You WILL see.

You are breathing this stuff; wake up and smell the chemicals before they completely clog your ability to think for yourself.

[podfish]

.... So far nobody has answered the essential questions like who is doing the spraying, who is paying for it, why is it being done, and why does it span many years with many political changes taking place. Why has there been no compelling evidence of it, why hasn't it become a huge scandal, why hasn't anyone come forth to "out" the practice who is credible with incontravertable evidence. ... A worldwide conspiracy to foist chemtrails upon an unsuspecting public just seems so laughable,

That's your problem! Obviously it doesn't seem so laughable to the chemtrail crowd. And there are lots of answers to your questions. It's just that neither you nor I find them credible. Lump that with PV's tack, where she finds that the mere existence of any cloud seeding programs supports the claims that (all? large numbers?) of the atmospheric effects are incontrovertible evidence of deliberate spraying, and you get your explanation of why this won't go away.

[daynurse]

Wow. I'm amazed that this topic has engendered so many passionate, thoughtful, and sometimes hurtful replies. I was the original poster and, as far as I know, the reporter requesting information has not tuned in to take note of the responses. I sent him two emails with links to the thread and have not heard back from him at all. He's in Mendo County and part of an Investigative Reporters group I belong to.

I posted this because I have a dear friend of 60 years I grew up with, 90 miles from the Laguardia Airport. I spent many an afternoon at home, lying on the grass, staring at the white trails from planes that were circling above, watching them dissipate -- or not, while opening my heart to my young friends. Marty saw those same plumes. Over the years, Marty seems to have become afraid of many phenomena: extraterrestrials, a group he describes as devoted to a concept called "predetermined consensus" (google it) and now, chemtrails.

When I posted I thought I might learn something new that would make me believe that the Powers That Be have a true interest in usng the skies above to harm us. Since the day I wrote that original post, the Occupy Movement has taken a human form and has paved a clear Path to the true Evil in our world - a Path that I believe we need to be focusing on now. We need to follow, support, and empower those courageous youth who are saving our country, our lives and our planet. Scott Olsen is recovering and now able to speak about how his right to free speech was literally taken from him. Michael Moore has painted a picture of the embodiment of Greed known as Wall Street.

The very few people who actually run our country, and world, by dumbing down and enslaving the masses have no problem with dropping nuclear plants (read bombs) into the middle of the masses, destroying the water tables under the farms and homes with a process known as fracking, drilling for oil and hiding ecological disasters under media and advertising voodoo, dumping plastics into the lifeblood of the earth, the oceans, raising the CO2 levels causing ocean acidification to a level not known for 500,000 years, masterminding massive worldwide wars using the children of the masses to enrich themselves, and on and on --- and on. Seems to me, there is no need for them to hide their activities up in the sky when they can openly pillar and purge the "peasants" (their word, not mine) into Believing -- sometimes with great enthusiasm (tea baggers).

Seems to me that, if all the energy spent on this long thread on Wacco about chemtrails were used to alleviate just one of the disasters above, we could move toward taking the country back to the 50's, when I was dreamily watching the white trails in the sky.

And you, my treasured Waccoians, are part of this History. Your words rise above, then dissipate down over this conscious community of almost 11,000. Take care with your writing. Read what you are about to send twice over. Slipping into two common shortcuts, (1) referencing another opinion as insane (loony, nuts, crazy, paranoid, etc.) and (2) saying they are under-informed (uneducated, in denial, not scientific, stupid, etc) doesn't lead to the clear communication your own ideas. Instead, it causes the reader to lose his way. Your point of view and information can stand alone and become a strong message with a clear, clean impact.

Thank you, everyone for caring so much and keeping this consciousness breathing.

Peggy Day, grandmother.

[geomancer]

Look, up in the sky! It’s a bird, it’s a plane, it’s (wait for it) - CHEMTRALS! Chicken Little was right! OMG, vapor trails high in the air, we’re all gonna die, or breathe aluminum dust or something else really, really bad. And the evidence is: scary vapor trails high in the air. Oy.

Pardon my French, but this has got to be one of the most retarded conspiracy theories of all time, and that is saying something. My evidence? Occam’s Razor (look it up if you’re clueless). Incidentally, I have viewed enough dumbass YouTube videos on this subject to last a lifetime, so forget about sending me more links.

Snarking aside, I want to thank the experienced pilots who have contributed to this thread, I’ve learned some interesting things about the atmosphere.

(Apologies to Peggy Day, but, when reason fails, ridicule to the rescue!)

Richard

[Iolchan]

jbox wrote:

Hi Mark,

I guess for me it's just not enough to say contrails have become chemtrails and it's gotta be true. I remember when I was a kid and I looked into the sky and saw jets leaving contrails. These didn't dissipate in a minute or two but lasted a long time. So far nobody has answered the essential questions like who is doing the spraying, who is paying for it, why is it being done, and why does it span many years with many political changes taking place. Why has there been no compelling evidence of it, why hasn't it become a huge scandal, why hasn't anyone come forth to "out" the practice who is credible with incontravertable evidence.

A worldwide conspiracy to foist chemtrails upon an unsuspecting public just seems so laughable, especially when they can so easily be explained as simple contrails. Give me some evidence and I'll listen but until then the scientific reasoning of folks like Dane have the upper hand. Do you at least grant that he answered your questions about your "photographic evidence"?

Jon,
Contrails have not become chemtrails. Contrails are still contrails - and ever will be, while there are jet engines on airplanes... Chemtrails are a new phenomena, that, beginning in 1984, and especially since 1989, have made a spectacular appearance in our skies. Unlike classical jet contrails, chemtrails are not ice crystals. Unlike "contrails," chemtrails are not a high altitude phenomena. Unlike "classical" jet contrails, chemtrails fan out into clouds, and often become a haze that covers the whole sky.

Unlike the typical, "classical" jet contrail, that made its advent in 1945, with the development of the jet engine, chemtrails are often sporadic, & manifest as faux clouds, in line-segments. Indeed, it does appear, that there is a spigot inside the plane that is being turned on and off; opened and closed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hh5z...eature=related

As far the question of who is doing it, that is fairly clear, from the materiel that is available on the internet. The feds are doing it - or at east an element among them that has been called, variously, over the years, the "invisible government," "the secret government," or "the secret team." Remember Danny Sheehan?

As to why it is being done; well there are a lot of theories there, and a number of them may intersect. The power elite are taught about "elegant solutions" in Prep School, and they love them. I had a friend, long ago, who went to Case Western Reserve Academy, and he filled me in on that score. The scions of privilege learn about elegant solutions, beginning in the eighth grade. So the purpose of these clouds, of this haze, that is emitted these days from the bellies of the C-100's that are spewing out this stuff, may be manifold.

As far as the answers Dane gave? Well, he did give an answer - that the planes were "in a hold;" in other words, waiting to land at some airport. That's one answer. It may not be correct, however. It involves a certain amount of presumption; since neither Dane nor I were present, or took those particular photographs. We just were not there. The planes in question might have been many miles from any airport, for all we know. I would argue, however, that the trails left by those planes were not classical contrails, since the plumes of the trails are fairly wide, and dense.

I do know about the photographs that I posted on this thread, {#58,#59} for I was present when my friend took them with her digital camera, from my deck. Those were authentic "Chemtrails" and not classical contrails. They fanned out into clouds, and eventually filled most of the sky with haze, over the Mayacama Ridge. I am a witness to that; for I was there...

Do listen to what Catherine Austin-Fitts has to say, here: https://solari.com/podcast/Solari_Report_Digest-11.m4a

Also, I would encourage everyone to invest an hour of their time to listen to this talk by
Rosalind Peterson, on the subject of Chemtrails

And check out her website, here: www.californiaskywatch.com.

Frankly, I found Dane's one word answer to my Question regarding the testimony of these two women to be a little too glib:

Iolchan wrote:

Would you guys care to comment on what these two wise women have to say ?
=OR=
Are they just "confused," crazy, delusional, ignorant, "loopy" - and the like?

danejasper wrote:

Bingo!

-DJ

That, after all, is not exactly a critique... Causing me to wonder if he actually opened up the links...


I'll leave it to the goddess gals out there in the west county to find other possible errors of judgment in the brevity of his commentary. And I encourage you women, and ye wymyn, to listen to, and to watch Catherine Austin-Fitts, and Rosalind Peterson; two accomplished and saavy women, each discoursing on the same subject : of how they first became aware of this new phenomenon, Chemtrails.

I also challenge all of you men out there - the science-minded, self-defined, Rationalists among you - to take the time to listen to what these two women have to say.

- Mark