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  1. TopTop #31
    Dixon's Avatar
    Dixon
     

    Re: Women's Gifting Circle redux

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by rossmen: View Post
    ...its easy to judge them as greedy, or naive.
    Most of those who've contacted me privately about having been ripped off by these things have described themselves as naive, sometimes even using that word. How would it not be naive to engage in a scam that's about 89% likely to take your money? And regarding those who knowingly rip off their sisters or brothers, or engage in Herculean feats of denial/evasion/irrationality so they can bullshit themselves that it's not a scam--surely it's fair to call them greedy, no?

    Quote ...holding those they know are still involved with the care of confidentiality, perhaps that is their way of healing the biggest cost i see here, social damage.
    I don't see how refusing to hold people accountable for ripping off their sisters and brothers promotes healing. It simply guarantees that, in a few years after the current ferment dies down, they'll do it again because they profited with no consequences this time. What's to stop them? Certainly not anything so quaint as empathy or honor; they're not encumbered by such constraints. Do you think we should refrain from going after burglars, muggers and rapists too? Do you really see that much difference between a pyramid scheme ripoff and, e.g., a burglary?
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  3. TopTop #32
    rossmen
     

    Re: Women's Gifting Circle redux

    i do, and so do many of the victims and law enforcement. look at your own experience at trying to gather evidence for prosecution. if you were a witness to violence or a property crime a report would be taken and you might be called in to testify. i agree there is a good chance that some kind of womens gifting pyramid scam might move through the area in 10-15 years. i remember the last time and knew participants then too. this time the message seems more sophisticated/misleading. the more written, the better chance more invitees decline and warn others.

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by Dixon: View Post
    Most of those who've contacted me privately about having been ripped off by these things have described themselves as naive, sometimes even using that word. How would it not be naive to engage in a scam that's about 89% likely to take your money? And regarding those who knowingly rip off their sisters or brothers, or engage in Herculean feats of denial/evasion/irrationality so they can bullshit themselves that it's not a scam--surely it's fair to call them greedy, no?


    I don't see how refusing to hold people accountable for ripping off their sisters and brothers promotes healing. It simply guarantees that, in a few years after the current ferment dies down, they'll do it again because they profited with no consequences this time. What's to stop them? Certainly not anything so quaint as empathy or honor; they're not encumbered by such constraints. Do you think we should refrain from going after burglars, muggers and rapists too? Do you really see that much difference between a pyramid scheme ripoff and, e.g., a burglary?
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  5. TopTop #33
    Dixon's Avatar
    Dixon
     

    Re: Women's Gifting Circle redux

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by rossmen: View Post
    I do, and so do many of the victims and law enforcement. look at your own experience at trying to gather evidence for prosecution. if you were a witness to violence or a property crime a report would be taken and you might be called in to testify.
    Nobody bats an eye if we incarcerate some young black, brown or poor white guy(s) for burglarizing a home and getting, say, a few hundred bucks worth of stuff. Fine--they did the crime; let them do the time. But when some middle-aged white woman in "goddess" clothing, smelling of incense and with a permanently painted-on blissed-out smile bilks 8 of her sisters out of $5,000 each, somehow it doesn't seem appropriate to jail her. After all, the unspoken social contract is that jail is for young black, brown or poor white males, not "spiritual" middle/upper-middle class white women. Somehow it doesn't feel "right" to incarcerate them--even if they ripped off more people for more money than did the guys who populate our jails. Let me take this opportunity to challenge everyone who reads this to have an honest encounter with your unconscious inner racist/sexist/classist.

    Quote i agree there is a good chance that some kind of womens gifting pyramid scam might move through the area in 10-15 years.
    It only took about 8 years this last time--and that's only the ones I've heard about. In any case, if no one gets any consequences for profiting from a swindle this time, you can be sure it'll happen again. When it does, it won't be because I didn't try my best to stop it. Can you say the same?
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  7. TopTop #34
    PDines's Avatar
    PDines
     

    Re: Women's Gifting Circle redux

    Thanks for the conversation here. I'd like to add what might be a useful distinction: Just because AFTER the fact, a person might cope by shrugging and saying "I learned lesson X" doesn't mean that we shouldn't care about justice for them AND stopping the next person from being harmed. There's a difference between personal coping and having a fair system of justice and accountability.

    Also, one of the things I often hear people say after being ripped off is that they thought they were too smart to have it happen to them. That's why to me we can't rely on that. The charm and claims are designed to seduce. So to me the best antidote is to actually understand how cons work, so that we can see them underneath the smoke and mirrors.

    Also, in terms of the claims of personal empowerment, women's power, etc. -- I've said before but I think it bears repeating - if that's the goal, then charge a fee up front for that benefit, so that can be the focus. But to me that outcome is undermined at its foundation when charm covers deceptive and mathematically impossible claims -- which then lead to so much focus on attracting new victims, rather than doing the real work of personal growth. To me, that makes the offering rotten at the core. What lessons can they teach when the foundation lacks integrity?

    To me, the way to empower people in this case is to help them see when they're being conned -- so they can walk the other direction -- or, even better, report them to the cops. When we know we can take care of our own well-being -- now that's empowerment!

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by rossmen: View Post
    justice has many forms. pyramid schemes leave a long trail of victims and i don't think the originators make all that much. my guess is that most who get a payoff "reinvest". there seems to be a lot of sponsoring in this latest manifestation. so the money loss might be less cruel than simple calculation suggests.

    i admire your educational efforts and holding that objective rational thought is the best way to understand and make decisions in the world, especially around money. the women excited about being invited, feeling the support, and inviting others, its easy to judge them as greedy, or naive. but i don't know them like this. and if they have stepped away, holding those they know are still involved with the care of confidentiality, perhaps that is their way of healing the biggest cost i see here, social damage.

    maybe the women's wisdom circle name is true for participants in an unexpected way. you can call me unemphatic or mean for imagining there might be something positive in this. i certainly don't mean to defend it. maybe i am smug because i have never fallen for such a simple scam. maybe its just my way of coping with another sad thing we humans do to each other;.(
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  9. TopTop #35
    kpage9's Avatar
    kpage9
     

    Re: Women's Gifting Circle redux

    ditto the thanks!!!!

    i keep wondering...who's reading this excellent exchange and cringeing (cringing?), feeling kind of nailed, kind of ashamed, but maybe holding out hope that she can make it work for herself and her friends. or maybe just feeling offended and defensive, thinking that if she spoke up for HER reality, she would be derided, scorned, ostracized.

    There's a conspicuous silence coming from the direction of those still practicing. Logically enough.

    i also wonder what the conversation is within those circles... whether the scorn from the "outside" makes them pull together stronger, us against them.

    I really wish there were a way to make it safe for those involved to speak up and help us know their perspective but I think there is not.

    One last question: do you think it's just a cynical, greedy thing painted over with pretty hopes (um...lipstick on a pig...in goddess garb)? or--given that apparently much of the gains are put back in to sponsor others, could there be some part that IS genuinely giving?

    kathy

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by PDines: View Post
    Thanks for the conversation here. I'd like to add ...
    Last edited by Barry; 03-15-2014 at 05:30 PM.
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  11. TopTop #36
    PDines's Avatar
    PDines
     

    Re: Women's Gifting Circle redux

    Kathy - Thanks for your comments. Question - you say that "much of the gains are put back in to sponsor others". Is that really that common? I just can't believe that it would be. And when you say sponsor, do you mean a GIFT or a LOAN? I've only heard of this rarely, and as a LOAN that the person is expected to pay back. If it's a GIFT, do they still get money from the levels below them? If not, then it's an odd hybrid. The likelihood is that there still will be incentives of some kind for that recipient to use their time and connections to bring more people into the group, as that is a primary activity for everyone who wants their money back. The new people who come in will expect to be paid based on the claims and mathematically can't be. That's what makes it a pyramid scheme. Therefore, even if someone is sponsored in, to me they're still part of a con, just being staked to participate and use their skills to bring more people in. I just can't see it as generosity. If you give someone the tools to be a bank robber on your bank robbing team -- they're still a bank robber.

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by kpage9: View Post
    ditto the thanks!!!!...
    Last edited by Barry; 03-15-2014 at 05:31 PM.
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  13. TopTop #37
    Shandi's Avatar
    Shandi
     

    Re: Women's Gifting Circle redux

    There are so many ways to give/gift. I'd much rather give to some woman who's struggling to make ends meet, with no way of "gifting" $5,000. to a woman in a circle, let alone being able to feed/cloth herself and children. Those women would be joyful to receive anything, whether in the form of money, goods, services, education, or an emotional boost through genuine caring concern shown by listening.

    Last year I saw a woman with a young child, begging at a shopping center. I was in my car, and only had 50 cents on me, and not much more at home. I drove home, and got my $10 savings, and brought it back, along with a notebook and pen. I interviewed this woman to find out how she got in this position. Although I personally didn't have much money to share, I did agree to do weekly laundry for this family of 4, and carry food/water in my car for them. I helped them with transportation, and finding a place to sleep at night. They had once owned a home and lived in Sebastopol, when the father lost his construction job, and was unable to find more work. They lost their home, and their car due to unpaid registration. I continued to see them for about 6 months before they disappeared from the area.

    There's no shortage of ways for women (or men) to give to those in need.


    Quote Posted in reply to the post by kpage9: View Post
    ditto the thanks!!!!....
    Last edited by Barry; 03-15-2014 at 05:32 PM.
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  15. TopTop #38
    Shandi's Avatar
    Shandi
     

    Re: Women's Gifting Circle redux

    I did a search trying to find a "gifting circle" to join, but realize these aren't posted, but spread through secret phone conversations or in person. I did find several references to the circles being scams, but what was of particular interest was an article from the Big Island Weekly, where I lived when I was involved in the circle in the 80's.

    12:06 am - September 04, 2013 Big Island Weekly

    The Gift that Keeps on Taking
    Le’a Gleason


    Author’s Note: The names of the women interviewed have been changed to protect their anonymity.
    In recent months, an underground business called ‘Women’s Gifting Circles’ has made its way across East Hawaii, dividing people who disagree on the touchy subject of this investment model. To some it’s a ‘pyramid scheme,’ while others see it as a smart investment in a good cause.

    According to a statement from the Federal Trade Committee (FTC) in 1998, “Pyramid schemes now come in so many forms that they may be difficult to recognize immediately. However, they all share one overriding characteristic. They promise consumers or investors large profits based primarily on recruiting others to join their program, not based on profits from any real investment or real sale of goods to the public.”

    The statement elaborates that pyramid schemes are punishable by state and federal law in a variety of ways.

    “The U.S. Department of Justice, in collaboration with investigative agencies like the FBI, prosecutes pyramid schemes criminally…At the Commission, we bring cases against pyramid schemes under the FTC Act, which broadly prohibits ‘unfair or deceptive acts or practices in or affecting commerce’,” it says.
    ‘Gifting circles’ are not a new concept, and in fact were rumored to be happening in Hawaii in the late eighties and nineties.
    While some are co-ed, the women’s versions are marketed as a way to empower women financially through a tiered investment model, described with the analogy of dinner courses. At the bottom are eight ‘appetizers,’ who each donate $1,400. Above them are four ‘soup and salads’ and two ‘entrees.’ The woman at the very top is the ‘dessert,’ who collects $11,000. Then, the circle splits in two and each ‘entrée’ becomes the top of her own circle. In order for each woman to move up a level, the group must find eight more women. For one of the original eight women to become a ‘dessert,’ only 24 new women must be recruited. However, for every one of the original eight women to reach the top, a total of 192 women must be recruited. And for every one of the eight women from each new circle to receive their ‘gift,’ numbers quickly shoot into the thousands.

    Methods of recruitment and the unlikely return of the original investment have some women in the community concerned. In addition, women who are members are told not to speak publicly about their involvement. Circles have secret phone meetings where they discuss what they’ll do with the money, and exchange email called ‘hush mail.’

    Karen Souza became concerned when several women recruited her aggressively. She was first contacted about six months ago by a friend on the Mainland, and then was approached two separate times on-island.
    “This old friend of mine who I haven’t spoken with in years… ended up calling and said ‘I have something really exciting I wanna tell you but you have to promise you won’t tell anyone’. It could’ve been anything but there was something that raised a red flag immediately,” Souza said.
    She explained that the woman was “pushing to keep her on the phone,” and to arrange a time when they could talk further.

    From another woman, she received an email including a document detailing how the circle would work. In Souza’s case, it was called a “Wisdom Circle” and each woman was asked to donate $5,000, totaling $40,000 for the woman at the top. The document explained that the women need-not pay taxes, as the IRS allows up to a $12,000 gift.

    It read, “Our intention is to benefit women, PERIOD. We have discovered a way …to help women begin manifesting a solid financial foundation for their families and their projects. We have joined together in a sisterhood that is truly sacred community. Those who can accept that the true energy of intention is everything, will understand the energetic foundation of the Women’s Wisdom Circle.”

    It continued, “Limited by language, it is hard to convey the full nature of The Women’s Wisdom Circle; however, please know that by inviting you, we are asking you to receive support. Go within to a quiet centered place, use your intuition and make your decision.” To Souza, the email was very upsetting.

    “This language is targeting women who are trying to live a spiritual life. Anybody who’s not 100 percent confident in themselves is going to be susceptible. I’m struggling and all these women I know are basically living close to poverty and the chance to have a chunk of money to better themselves, that’s basically irresistible. Who’s responsible for this? I would love to see that person go to jail,” Souza said.
    Similar recruiting situations were true for Jennifer Willis, Kathleen Okuza, and Kanani Tavares. Each woman claims to have been “pushed” towards joining the circle.

    “I know a handful of smart women who have unfortunately put money towards this ‘circle.’ It is hard to say no when your good friends are asking you to join, whom you believe to be smart and kind-hearted people,” Willis said. Willis named one woman involved at an upper-level as a “well known” member of the empowered, strong, hippie, female community. “Allegedly she has made over $50,000 and has ‘rejoined’ the circle three times,” she said. The same woman was mentioned by three other sources as someone who pushed them to join.

    In Okuza’s case, it seemed enticing so she agreed.

    “When I wanted to figure out my finances for the ‘gift,’ they got very pushy. The leader sent me a couple text-messages with exclamation points. As time went by and I wasn’t ‘gifting’ it was like ‘when are you going to give the gift? Get back to me now. I’m going to check in with you. When can I?’ And then I said ‘you’re harassing me for money and I don’t appreciate it’,” Okuza said. Tavares was also approached several times.

    “It’s so insidious how they do this in Puna. I think it’s really cruel that they’re using that language to try to entice women. I get that. The idea of helping my sisters out is appealing to me,” she said, adding that the financial effects are “devastating.” “I think that’s possibly one of the most upsetting aspects of this whole gifting circle. This is the Big Island. Nobody’s particularly loaded, especially in our age group. I would have such a hard time accepting money from women knowing it was screwing them over in the process. It’s crazy, it’s illegal and it’s predatory,” Tavares said.

    But member Lisa Janneson feels that membership is voluntary and the risks are made clear. Janneson was “sponsored” into the circle, meaning that a friend paid for her. If Janneson makes it to the top, her friend gets half of the $11,000.
    “It was your decision to get involved in the first place. You never know what’s gonna happen, even when you give your money to a legitimate accountant they might take your money and launder it. You’re investing it in a woman. That woman is going to take that money and use it to better her life. It’s an investment in somebody else,” Janneson said. She explained that her circle is mainly comprised of people she knows, and she was invited by someone she can trust.

    “I definitely haven’t had any negative experience. I think there’s an issue in our culture about people being able to trust. The whole idea behind the women’s circle…it’s like the amount of faith you can manifest for it is how it works. I think that’s really scary for some people, being able to have that faith,” Janneson said.

    Neither the Pahoa or Hamakua Police departments have records of specific police reports regarding the circles, nor do police chiefs say they have any knowledge of what’s going on. According to media relations, were reports filed, they would be theft reports which would get lost amongst many other reports. The Hilo Police Chief was unable to be reached for comment. Also unavailable for comment was County Prosecutor Mitch Roth. Upon contacting his office, a representative said that Roth “no longer handles community prosecuting.”

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by kpage9: View Post
    ditto the thanks!!!!...
    Last edited by Barry; 03-15-2014 at 05:33 PM.
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  17. TopTop #39
    kpage9's Avatar
    kpage9
     

    Re: Women's Gifting Circle redux

    Thanks to Shandi for the article and this note. Of COURSE there are other, better, more honest and direct ways of giving, and Shandi deserves a position in the Good Person Hall of Fame for her actions. And there is no question that this is a pyramid scheme. My interest really is in what happens to the women in this circle...how does it affect their sense of connectedness to the larger community, and to their own inner compass. In what it feels like from inside them.

    I think the challenge here is to hold both the sense of right and wrong, and compassion and even maybe respect for the person

    kathy.

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by Shandi: View Post
    There are so many ways to give/gift. I'd much rathe...
    Last edited by Barry; 03-15-2014 at 05:34 PM.
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  19. TopTop #40
    PDines's Avatar
    PDines
     

    Re: Women's Gifting Circle redux

    Hi Kathy - I want to better understand your point. Are you saying that we shouldn't judge the people who get hooked into this? At what point does someone become responsible for their choices?

    I think it's great and important to understand the experiences of people in these groups. I'm a huge fan of compassion, and I understand that people can get brought into a game and not really understand it. But I feel the risk of it being too mushy around right and wrong here. I see people using language that removes responsibility for choices, and making the perpetrators the victims.

    To me, real harm is being done and it only stops when accountability starts. To me there are things that are just wrong, and taking money under false pretenses surely has to be on that list. To me, it isn't about blame but responsibility. The law has distinctions to try to capture level of innocence vs. intent, so I think that's fair.

    But what if a person refuses to hear warnings, to think out the math themselves? What if they keep insisting that it's about empowerment when it's about recruitment? I think it's important that we be compassionate but also street smart, and be willing to see when someone is stubbornly using wonderful spiritual language to coldly rip people off. If they say pretty words but don't care about the harm they do - and blame the victims for being harmed - then is it really a spiritual path of integrity? For me integrity requires people to step up to responsibility, not try to avoid it -- even when the harm they did was inadvertent. People of integrity might say " I didn't understand, I didn't know -- and now I want to make it right" -- and be willing to make sacrifices to do it. They don't just rest on innocence to excuse the harm.

    The harm of these schemes is so well-known. It's about promises/claims vs. reality, and being responsible about that. And it's not just about this particular scheme to me, but also the general principle of people being in integrity with what they claim vs. offer, and being responsible for the outcomes. I often see people offering spiritual words and loving claims while working their own scheme, doing harm, and not holding themselves accountable. As if the pretty words were all that mattered. So I would like to see us raise our spiritual intentions to include responsibility and integrity. To me, that provides a container that really does raise our spiritual vibrations, in ways that recklessness never can.

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by kpage9: View Post
    Thanks to Shandi for the article and this note. Of COURSE there are other, better, more honest and direct ways of giving, and Shandi deserves a position in the Good Person Hall of Fame for her actions. And there is no question that this is a pyramid scheme. My interest really is in what happens to the women in this circle...how does it affect their sense of connectedness to the larger community, and to their own inner compass. In what it feels like from inside them.

    I think the challenge here is to hold both the sense of right and wrong, and compassion and even maybe respect for the person

    kathy.
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  21. TopTop #41
    kpage9's Avatar
    kpage9
     

    Re: Women's Gifting Circle redux

    Dear P,

    I'm saying that it's a huge challenge, for me at least, to hold--like i said--a a fully informed sense of right and wrong (read: judgment) AND compassion/respect/curiosity, all at the same time. And i would love it if others felt the same challenge ...i'd take some comfort in our shared struggle to reach a difficult balance.

    There is a complex and somewhat paradoxical issue of boundaries here as well: to me, unless there are lies being told or the recruit is intellectually or otherwise impaired, the women who sign on are making their own decisions freely and it is not my job to stop them. To think it IS my job shades into self-righteous meddling.

    But what if a person refuses to hear warnings, to think out the math themselves?
    you ask. In what universe, honestly, is it our obligation or right to manage other people's choices?

    Please don't think I'm against holding up a huge neon sign that THIS IS A RIP-OFF.

    Going farther than that? Honestly what would you propose?

    But my personal interest--just because i am an incurable snoop about people's inner workings--lies in the phenomenology of this thing. The perceptions, emotions, thoughts and changes of the women involved.

    kathy

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by PDines: View Post
    Hi Kathy - I want to better understand your point.....
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  23. TopTop #42
    Dixon's Avatar
    Dixon
     

    Re: Women's Gifting Circle redux

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by kpage9: View Post
    ...unless there are lies being told...the women who sign on are making their own decisions freely and it is not my job to stop them.
    Kathy, there are lies being told. Pyramid schemes could never get enough recruits to function at all without misleading recruits about the likelihood of their profiting. They are not just idealistic ventures that don't happen to turn out well for a few of the investors; they are swindles based on lies. Or do you imagine that when new suckers are recruited they are being told that they have at least an 89% chance of losing their investment?

    Quote In what universe, honestly, is it our obligation or right to manage other people's choices?
    In this universe it is our obligation as a society, or even just as people who care about others, to manage people's choices when those choices involve victimizing others. Such management of choices ranges from education (as I've been trying to do) to enforcing penalties to deter such rapacious behavior.
    Last edited by Dixon; 03-15-2014 at 11:35 PM.
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  25. TopTop #43
    PDines's Avatar
    PDines
     

    Re: Women's Gifting Circle redux

    Hi Kathy - Thanks very much for sharing more of your thoughts.

    To me this isn't about protecting a woman who makes a truly informed choice based on factual information that only impacts her well- being. But that's not what's happening here. If you want to understand nuances, I really encourage you to understand how a pyramid scheme works - both in functionality, and how people get conned into it. And I encourage you to understand that people are being persuaded to enter a game where they will then be conning other people into the game. This doesn't just effect the first person, but a chain of people into the community.

    There's lots of emotional/psychological packaging -- including peer pressure and leveraging off relationships and other people's credibility -- and manipulating people based on their underlying needs. That might be interesting to study til the cows come home.

    However, underneath is a very powerful lie. It's in the math. And it is NOT disclosed up front. That's the point. People are told that they will give money but get back lots more. Whatever intangibles they're offered, whatever packaging, that's the core promise. They are NOT told that the statistical odds are that they won't get these promised riches - and that getting any money depends on them recruiting lots of other people with that promise who will not get the promised riches -- including friends, people who are giving their last dime, etc. Even if they get money, the people they recruit down the line WILL NOT. If you do the math, it gets exponential VERY FAST. It's literally impossible for very many levels to get their money back.

    To me, that should be not OK. And frankly I think it's heartless to say "Tough luck" and not warn people that they're being conned. That to me is an example of this culture's hyper-individualism, which doesn't even see the value of community or relationship at all, just money and how much we can accumulate, impacts be darned.

    I also want to note that warning others can come in many forms. It doesn't have to be personal. It can be just what this thread is -- helping people see the pattern. To me the best way to empower people is to educate them on the underlying lie.

    Let me ask you another question -- if there was a company that had a track record of selling people products and not delivering them -- had done it for years, jumping from state to state ahead of the law -- but the evidence was solid - and your friend was about to give them money -- would you really not raise a word of warning? Don't you see that as service? Wouldn't it be non-compassionate to your friend to bring it up?

    As I said - I think there's a difference between judgment/blame and responsibility/accountability. I understand not wanting to be "too judgmental," which we associate with arrogant, not compassionate, etc. But I think that can go too far to the other extreme, where we lose accountability and let liars and thieves and con men get off scott free. Believe me, they LOVE suckers who think only about compassion and never hold them accountable for their scams. They seek such people out! And I think it's frankly heartless not to care about warning people when there are scams afoot.

    I think that people of good heart need to be smart and watch out for each other -- just as on a hike, we might say, "Watch out, there's a tricky area on the path there." Would you just let a fellow hiker fall, because it was their choice to put their foot there? None of us know everything, see everything. It's worse when there are liars and manipulators at play. Let's all watch out for the dangers so we can make the space safer for everyone.

    To me, what's key here is holding both compassion and responsibility together. This to me is not about being judgmental or blaming -- but helping people see the full picture that is not in the pitch. And it's about seeing that emotionally healthy people and communities don't try to avoid blame but step up to be responsible. If they don't, then to hold them accountable isn't making them a victim. It's about stopping them from hurting others. And maybe even encouraging them to be their better selves. To draw a line that says, "In our community, we don't rip each other off. That's not ok with us."

    I don't think letting con men run wild without anyone bringing it up would create a safe and loving society. I think it would create a fearful closed society, where people either join the con game or hide in their homes.

    Instead, I encourage people of good heart to care about helping to create a safe society, by helping watch out for each other, so that we can focus our attention on giving our unique gifts, not staving off charming lying predators.

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by kpage9: View Post
    I'm saying that it's a huge challenge, for me at least, ...
    Last edited by Barry; 03-16-2014 at 11:49 AM.
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  27. TopTop #44
    kpage9's Avatar
    kpage9
     

    Re: Women's Gifting Circle redux

    P: it ISN'T ok. I KNOW ABOUT PYRAMID SCHEMES. I am recommending telling others about the tricky patch up ahead. A company's taking money for goods and not delivering them is remediable by law. Not a ONE of us is recommending withholding information about this danger.

    All the above is to say: I have my perspective, knowledge and intention--pretty clearly stated in my posts. I'm not sure you're recognizing all--or any--of that. in fact i am feeling a bit condescended-to. Probably a little like what a woman who--however misguidedly we think--decides to join one of these circles might feel. This will never open her mind to your perspective.

    k
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  29. TopTop #45
    PDines's Avatar
    PDines
     

    Re: Women's Gifting Circle redux

    Kathy - I'm uncomfortable with your comment and find it inconsistent with the facts or a constructive approach. For myself, I know that I was overtly curious to understand your viewpoint, and invited you to say more. Then I sought to speak with clear responsible I statements about my perspective and values. I also think that if you go back and look at your comments, you can see for instance that you said that unless someone lies, this is a woman's choice and we shouldn't tell her what to do. That to me reflects that you factually don't understand the underlying structure of a ponzi scheme. They are always based on a lie - or they're something else.

    So I think it's clear that I shared this added information in the spirit of helpfulness. I invite you to receive it that way, and not project your negative story onto others in this group. To instead simply be open that there might be more for you to understand here. I'm also concerned that your approach can be used to keep these games going, even if you don't see the connection. I think that compassion for the victims should be a high priority in all of this.

    In any case, I hope that my comments have been of use to the folks who are curious to know more. And I'm outa here.



    Quote Posted in reply to the post by kpage9: View Post
    P: it ISN'T ok. I KNOW ABOUT PYRAMID SCHEMES. I am recommending telling others about the tricky patch up ahead. A company's taking money for goods and not delivering them is remediable by law. Not a ONE of us is recommending withholding information about this danger.

    All the above is to say: I have my perspective, knowledge and intention--pretty clearly stated in my posts. I'm not sure you're recognizing all--or any--of that. in fact i am feeling a bit condescended-to. Probably a little like what a woman who--however misguidedly we think--decides to join one of these circles might feel. This will never open her mind to your perspective.

    k
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  31. TopTop #46
    Dixon's Avatar
    Dixon
     

    Re: Women's Gifting Circle redux

    Kathy, I want to publicly acknowledge that you've made it clear in previous posts that you're agreeing that people should be warned about pyramid schemes and that we should publicly stand against them. If Patricia (whose basic message I strongly support) implied otherwise, she was misrepresenting your expressed position. And I agree with you about holding empathy for all and responsibility/justice in our heads/hearts at the same time (a difficult task!). The only quibble I have with you at this point is that I think you still tend to downplay the scam as an investment with a "tricky patch up ahead", rather than the out-and-out swindle it actually is, and I don't get the impression that you support holding the perpetrators legally liable for their crimes.

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by kpage9: View Post
    P: it ISN'T ok. I KNOW ABOUT PYRAMID SCHEMES. I am recommending telling others about the tricky patch up ahead. ....
    Last edited by Barry; 03-16-2014 at 11:53 AM.
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  33. TopTop #47
    kpage9's Avatar
    kpage9
     

    Re: Women's Gifting Circle redux

    ah. ok. yes i definitely support holding the originators accountable, morally in the court of public opinion; legally if there is a law being broken. the "tricky patch" reference was a quote from patricia--i definitely see it as insidious, more like quicksand.

    I am still curious to know what patricia would have us do, specificially, in the effort to hold the originators accountable.

    Also--i DO see the victim/perpetrator line as nonexistent here, at least after the first roll-out.

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by Dixon: View Post
    Kathy, I want to publicly acknowledge that you've made it clear in previous posts that you're agreeing that people should be warned about pyramid schemes and that we should publicly stand against them. If Patricia...
    Last edited by Barry; 03-16-2014 at 11:53 AM.
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  35. TopTop #48

    Re: Women's Gifting Circle redux

    It seems to me that perhaps this conversation needs a lot more input from women who are in these gifting circles.
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  37. TopTop #49
    PDines's Avatar
    PDines
     

    Re: Women's Gifting Circle redux

    Absolutely! Dixon has made that request, and their viewpoints are welcome. I speak as someone who they tried to recruit and I declined, so I can observe the dynamics from that viewpoint.

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by Robyn Rosenwald: View Post
    It seems to me that perhaps this conversation needs a lot more input from women who are in these gifting circles.
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  39. TopTop #50
    PDines's Avatar
    PDines
     

    Re: Women's Gifting Circle redux

    Hi - Can you say more about what you mean by the line being nonexistent, at least after the first roll-out? Do you mean that all participants are both victims and perpetrators? By first rollout, what do you mean? The people who initiate the scheme? Just want to see what you're seeing there.

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by kpage9: View Post
    Also--i DO see the victim/perpetrator line as nonexistent here, at least after the first roll-out.
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  41. TopTop #51
    PDines's Avatar
    PDines
     

    Re: Women's Gifting Circle redux

    Hey Dixon - I was thinking that it'd be nice to have a stat that reflects the asymmetrical odds with a pyramid scheme. 89% is interesting, but it makes it sound like everyone has those odds -- one in ten. But I think the actual odds would start high with the originators and go down progressively with each level to become zero at a certain level. It'd be great to capture that mathematically somehow. I think it'd show why it's scam and not just a long-shot investment. Just an idea, if you've run into something like that, or saw a way to convey it.

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by Dixon: View Post
    Barry, I can answer some of those questions, as, you may recall, I researched the so-called Women's "Gifting" Circle several years ago. It was a typical pyramid scheme tarted up with New Agey spiritual jargon, and about 89% of the women who joined lost every penny they invested so the other 11% could profit from their gullibility. In other words, a con game fleecing the suckers.
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  43. TopTop #52
    Ted Pole's Avatar
    Ted Pole
     

    Women's Grifting Circle

    In reading this thread, I am struck with a couple of thoughts. First, it seems like otherwise smart women who would never respond to a $5 chain letter, are perfectly willing to send thousands of dollars to a total stranger in the same scam tarted up with the language of sisterhood and empowerment. Second, there is an old axiom for grifters that everyone involved in the grift, perp and victim, is essentially greedy. "You're telling me I'm gonna get $11,000 if I just give you $1,000?" It's the same angle the victims of Bernie Madoff had. Something seems too good to be true, so I'm gonna get me some.

    Finally, it may be the case that everyone in the current version of the grifting circle had no idea it was a con. The original "desserts" may have known what they were doing, but everyone else, including the second and third generation "desserts" may have actually thought they were creating "green energy" to help women realize their goals. It worked for them, why wouldn't it work for all the other sisters further down the food chain?

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  45. TopTop #53
    kpage9's Avatar
    kpage9
     

    Re: Women's Gifting Circle redux

    Assuming that the people start the pyramid are fully aware that most participants will not be able to realize the promises made to them--and that those who follow are somehow convinced otherwise--yes, that's exactly what i mean.

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by PDines: View Post
    Hi - Can you say more about what you mean by the line being nonexistent, at least after the first roll-out? Do you mean that all participants are both victims and perpetrators? By first rollout, what do you mean? The people who initiate the scheme? Just want to see what you're seeing there.
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  46. TopTop #54
    Dixon's Avatar
    Dixon
     

    Re: Women's Grifting Circle

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by Ted Pole: View Post
    Finally, it may be the case that everyone in the current version of the grifting circle had no idea it was a con. The original "desserts" may have known what they were doing, but everyone else, including the second and third generation "desserts" may have actually thought they were creating "green energy" to help women realize their goals. It worked for them, why wouldn't it work for all the other sisters further down the food chain?
    Anybody who's serious about making sure they're doing the right thing can find out the truth about pyramid schemes in 10 minutes on the Internet. Lots of these people read Wacco, and they'd have to work pretty hard to avoid my (and others') rants on the subject, including this thread. It's hard to believe that anyone who is at all honest can't see that it's a swindle if they really want to.

    Part of the problem is the culture of New Age irrationality that pervades Wacco and the whole West County area. It's considered perfectly respectable to ignore good logic and follow your "heart" or your "intuition" or "faith" or your "spirit guide"--i.e., believe whatever you need to believe to justify ripping people off. Insisting that people have a moral/social responsibility to be logical about these things can get you labeled a curmudgeon, a bully, a patriarchal oppressor, etc. If you wanna see a couple of examples of the sort of wild flights of irrationality local people I know have allowed themselves in order to BS themselves that pyramid schemes are okay, read my article "Pyramid of Betrayal".
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  48. TopTop #55
    Dixon's Avatar
    Dixon
     

    Re: Women's Gifting Circle redux

    Patricia, I'm no math whiz, but I can tell you this: The odds of making money versus losing your investment, whether you're on the 3rd, 6th, 8th or whatever level, depend entirely on whether three levels of payers get filled up below you. If the scam collapses before the 3rd level below you gets filled with suckers, your chance of profiting is zero and your chance of losing your investment is 100%. If the 3rd level below you does get filled with suckers before the thing collapses, your chance of profiting is 100% and your chance of losing your money is zero. So there's really no way of telling if you're gonna win or lose until the thing has died, except that each successive level has less chance of profiting than the one before it and, ultimately, around 9 out of 10 participants will lose no matter how long the thing goes on. If we had figures for how many levels the average pyramid scheme lasts before collapsing, we could give rough estimates for each level's probability of "success", but I doubt such figures exist.

    Incidentally, if the level 3 levels below you only gets partly filled with suckers before the scam collapses, you'll still profit, but it'll be less than the full amount expected. For instance, in the Women's "Wisdom" Circle, with a buy-in of $5000, a "winner" would get a $40,000 payday if the 3rd level below her has all 8 slots filled (8 x 5,000), but if the scam collapses when only, say, 3 of the slots on that level are filled, she'd "only" get $15,000 (3 x $5000). If only one of the slots is filled, she'd get $5000, breaking even.

    Also, note that the swindler who starts the pyramid gets more than $40,000. She gets the buy-in fees from the 1st, 2nd and 3rd levels below her, since there's no one above her in the pyramid to pass the money from those first two levels up to. So it'd be (2 + 4 + 8 =) 14 x $5000 = $70,000--on an investment of $0, 'cause she didn't have to pay to join! One of the victims of the Women's "Wisdom" Circle tells me privately that the woman who started it here had fled the police in Ashland, Oregon and brought the infection to Sonoma County. Unfortunately, this victim refuses to go to the cops about it, despite my urgings. So this asshole will be free to victimize others.

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by PDines: View Post
    Hey Dixon - I was thinking that it'd be nice to have a stat that reflects the asymmetrical odds with a pyramid scheme. 89% is interesting, but it makes it sound like everyone has those odds -- one in ten. But I think the actual odds would start high with the originators and go down progressively with each level to become zero at a certain level. It'd be great to capture that mathematically somehow. I think it'd show why it's scam and not just a long-shot investment. Just an idea, if you've run into something like that, or saw a way to convey it.
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  50. TopTop #56
    Dixon's Avatar
    Dixon
     

    Re: Women's Grifting Circle

    BTW, Ted Pole, I love the title you came up with: Women's Grifting Circle!
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  52. TopTop #57
    Shandi's Avatar
    Shandi
     

    Re: Women's Gifting Circle redux

    PDines,


    You echo my thoughts and feelings! Thank you so much for expressing your thoughtful, compassionate, and just wisdom. My heart and mind resonates with all that you've said.

    I also had another thought about these circles, which is why men aren't invited. I guess there are many reasons, but one could be that men being known for having more logic and more experience in the business world, would sniff this out quickly. More than likely they wouldn't be as naive as most women with little or no experience. Women who do have more business smarts may see this as an opportunity "made in heaven".


    Quote Posted in reply to the post by PDines: View Post
    Hi Kathy - Thanks very much for sharing more of your thoughts.

    To me this isn't about protecting a woman who makes a truly informed choice...
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  54. TopTop #58
    Shandi's Avatar
    Shandi
     

    Re: Women's Gifting Circle redux

    Kathy,
    There actually has been one woman who has indicated her feelings, although posted in another thread "WoMan's Gifting Circles". I'm just copying some of her post here. I do wonder about the other women of Wacco (hey, that's catchy!) who may have had and still hold their experiences as positive, and may even be looking to participate in one now. K may be not be the only one, but so far the only one brave enough to step forward and stand in her own truth. Would she join or start one herself today? Is she still in contact with others who feel as she does? How would she counsel those who feel differently? These are just questions that go through my mind when someone defends a situation where many others have obviously been hurt financially and emotionally. I was one of the fortunate ones who escaped without losing money, but I did lose faith in circles of women, which was confirmed by two other experiences, not related to "gifting". These experiences were 20 years apart, so my willingness to step in once again, proved disastrous emotionally. Enough of me, let's hear from K:


    "Many years ago I participated in a GIFTING community............and it was truly amazing.

    The initiations we all had to go through about what was a GIFT (a thing given willingly to someone without payment; a present ).....was deeply awakening to how I had misplaced expectations, how I was not clear in my intentions, how I only heard what I wanted to hear, how I was full of fear around many old dead patriarchal beliefs, how my energy was primarily placed on me, not the we, how I was more attached to my beliefs at times than the truth of reality. How could one possibly be upset with gifting a sister for her to improve her life in some small way?

    Have any of you ever given a large gift completely unconditionally? Really?

    We are adults and we all get to CHOOSE. In fact if you notice the title of GIFTing Cirlces, there is a hint.
    It has been going for over 30 years....women play the way they play, leave it along........

    I am deeply grateful for the experience I had in the past, regardless if I did not receive any gifts via that venue, guess life is like that....we don't always get to control what comes to us.....HOW REFRESHING

    LETS stop the witch hunt!
    ________________________________________________________________________________________
    Quote Posted in reply to the post by kpage9: View Post
    Thanks to Shandi for the article and this note. Of COURSE there are other, better, more honest and direct ways of giving, and Shandi deserves a position in the Good Person Hall of Fame for her actions. And there is no question that this is a pyramid scheme. My interest really is in what happens to the women in this circle...how does it affect their sense of connectedness to the larger community, and to their own inner compass. In what it feels like from inside them.

    I think the challenge here is to hold both the sense of right and wrong, and compassion and even maybe respect for the person

    kathy.
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  56. TopTop #59
    kpage9's Avatar
    kpage9
     

    Re: Women's Gifting Circle redux

    here's a really good article about the ashland version of this thing, along with the name of the originator...back to google to see if i can find her. thanks to shandi for pointing me northward.

    https://www.dailytidings.com/apps/pb...WS02/201190302
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  58. TopTop #60
    kpage9's Avatar
    kpage9
     

    Re: Women's Gifting Circle redux

    the first thing i notice about jumana king-harris--from her facebook page--is that she's promoting the sale of wolf puppies.

    what a peach.
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