PGE Smart Meter being installed in Guerneville- yes or no

[edie]

PGE was at my place on Monday to install the Smart Meter. I told him no. He said Ok, they will be back. I asked him who else will have them installed today. Nobody in my close neighborhood. I said why only my place- he said "I don't know" (I am the only one without a gate here) most questions I asked him "he didn't know" anything about. The only thing he said was, that the reading will go up because the old meters do not read correctly. I told him thats a big "...."

I called some of my close neighbors and everybody told me they will say no, PGE has no right to change the meters. We may have to go to court. But many people do not know anything about the meters. When there are enough meters installed, we will have no meter-readers anymore.

Anybody know how often they will be back? Or will they turn the electric power off? Or charge us an estimated reading? Or we have to read the meter our self? WHO does know about all that- not even PGE seems to be clear about all that- its all such a wischiwaschy coodlmoodl...

Even if there is something like a last on the list thing- what then? Sooner or later we will all get them? Is that it? Do we all have to go to court later or will we just forget about it?

I understand everybody who has the Smart Meter in Santa Rosa has now a higher bill.

[2Bwacco]

TURN - the utility reform network - is helping folks in an Oakland neighborhood resist installation of smart meters - contacting them may be of benefit. Here is a story that CBS5 aired a while back. CBS5 is on top of the smart meter matters and is completely mindful this is all total BS.. good luck!

here is a link to TURN website: https://www.turn.org/article.php?id=1219

* * * * * * *

Oakland Neighborhood Resisting Smart Meters
by Joe Vazquez, CBS 5 News
May 20th, 2010
Some homeowners in Oakland's Manzanita neighborhood are putting Pacific Gas & Electric on notice: Keep those Smart Meters away.

The Utility Reform Network, a consumer group, is helping the neighborhood become a Smart Meter-free zone. The new meters send a customer's power usage to PG&E through a wireless transmitter.

CBS 5 Investigates has talked to numerous customers who have complained about bills suddenly doubling. PG&E recently admitted more than 20,000 customers may have received inaccurate bills.

[danejasper]

I got a new SmartMeter (in Forestville) a couple months ago, and just for the record, my bill hasn't gone up. PG&E has admitted that they did have some bad units that gave bogus data, but I don't think your claim that everyone in Santa Rosa now has a higher bill makes much sense.

As for turning away the installer, you can do that for a time, but eventually if you want to retain electric utility service you will need to let them meter it. I believe per the PUC, there is a end to end two year window for the total move to wireless metering, but we're already more than six months into that, so that's probably when you'd risk losing utility service. (Anyone have the facts on this timeline?)

The crummy thing is that all of the rate payers (that's us) are paying the cost of the repeated visits when folks turn away installers. It's a bit like when folks don't send in their census - it costs the rest of us money.

-Dane

[Karl Frederick]

Dane, I disagree. I don't see it as a "crummy" thing when those who feel railroaded by PG&E stand up for what they see as their rights (yes, please do include me in that group). I don't think your analogy is at all appropriate; it strikes me as a poorly-informed and mean-spirited potshot at a group of people whose priorities are not the same as yours. As a businessman who promotes and benefits from the increasingly widespread use of wireless technology, you could do yourself, your business, and your community a greater service by becoming well-informed about the growing body of evidence linking biological problems to exposure to levels of non-ionizing microwave radiation that are far lower than those permitted by the FCC.

Think of it as a kind of "road to Damascus" opportunity. You could be ahead of the curve, promoting wise and biologically responsible use of the technology.

. . . The crummy thing is that all of the rate payers (that's us) are paying the cost of the repeated visits when folks turn away installers. It's a bit like when folks don't send in their census - it costs the rest of us money.

-Dane

[Insights]

I live in Forestville and have had Smart Meters for a few months. (They were installed when we were not home). I have been diligently tracking my bills and there have been no changes. I was surprised recently when a PGE meter-reader came onto the property to read my meters. I asked him why he was reading the meters the 'old-fashioned way' when we have Smart meters. He told me that a grid has to be full before it can be activated. That activation is not one meter at a time. He was smiling as he left. I think he will have a job for awhile yet.

[Sabrina]

...The crummy thing is that all of the rate payers (that's us) are paying the cost of the repeated visits when folks turn away installers. It's a bit like when folks don't send in their census - it costs the rest of us money.



The big difference between PG& E and the census, is the census IS our tax dollars at work to help serve us all; PG & E is a privately owned corporation with ONLY their financial gain in mind, NOT your well being, financial security, nor apparently your health safety with the largely untested "Smart Meters". Vote NO on 16, the PG& E power grab.

Vote No on Prop 16

[Sabrina]

Prop 16 action and CPUC hearing TONIGHT!

Please come to Santa Rosa City Council Chambers tonight to tell the CPUC what you think about PG&E's proposed $4 Billion rate increase. The hearing starts at 7, but we are gathering at 6:30 to express our opposition to Prop. 16. (come way early and check out Wed. night market on 4th St. too)

...The crummy thing is that all of the rate payers (that's us) are paying the cost of the repeated visits when folks turn away installers. It's a bit like when folks don't send in their census - it costs the rest of us money.



The big difference between PG& E and the census, is the census IS our tax dollars at work to help serve us all; PG & E is a privately owned corporation with ONLY their financial gain in mind, NOT your well being, financial security, nor apparently your health safety with the largely untested "Smart Meters". Vote NO on 16, the PG& E power grab.

Vote No on Prop 16

[CowGal]

I just had a visit from PG&E to look at my heater. I told him he better not install a Smart Meter, and he laughed. He said that they're already there. He was a really nice man and explained to me that if there are any problems with your SmartMeter, just call PG&E and they will come out and adjust it and credit your bill. He said the gas seems to be working okay, but the electric meters have had problems stemming from subcontractors that were hired to install the meters. They programmed them incorrectly and that is the reason for the problems. If you experience problems, you just call them and they will come out and fix it. I had no problem getting an appointment for them to check my heater, it took like 2 days, and it wasn't even an emergency.

I explained about the high price of electricity and how it is affecting people, he said he understood and that part of the reason is when cheap blocks of electricity are sold, they always go to the Municipal Utilities first, like SMUD (Sacramento Municipal Utility District) that are tax subsidized. Then companies like PG&E have to pay the market rate because they aren't tax subsidized. We are actually paying taxes so that people in Sacramento will have lower utility bills, and we will have higher utility bills because of it. This is what he had to say, and I don't know much about the subject because I haven't been reading up on it. But it seems to me that PG&E employs a lot of people in California, and they pay them well too. So the company is actually bolstering a failing economy. If you have a friend or relative that works for PG&E or a subcontractor of PG&E, you might take heed and be a little more investigative about what you are protesting about. I have no problem with protests, I think it's a good idea to keep big companies in check, especially the ones that have a monopoly on the power that we need to charge all our electrical devices that we can't do without. I am trying to get along without a microwave oven and it's pretty difficult.

Prop 16 action and CPUC hearing TONIGHT!

Please come to Santa Rosa City Council Chambers tonight to tell the CPUC what you think about PG&E's proposed $4 Billion rate increase. The hearing starts at 7, but we are gathering at 6:30 to express our opposition to Prop. 16. (come way early and check out Wed. night market on 4th St. too)

[danejasper]

Dane, I disagree. I don't see it as a "crummy" thing when those who feel railroaded by PG&E stand up for what they see as their rights (yes, please do include me in that group). I don't think your analogy is at all appropriate; it strikes me as a poorly-informed and mean-spirited potshot at a group of people whose priorities are not the same as yours. As a businessman who promotes and benefits from the increasingly widespread use of wireless technology, you could do yourself, your business, and your community a greater service by becoming well-informed about the growing body of evidence linking biological problems to exposure to levels of non-ionizing microwave radiation that are far lower than those permitted by the FCC.

Think of it as a kind of "road to Damascus" opportunity. You could be ahead of the curve, promoting wise and biologically responsible use of the technology.

I don't believe that there is any reasonable argument that could be made for any potential for harm from a SmartMeter specifically. It's all about power and distance - and these are very low power, and not exactly held up against your head for hours at a time.

Seems you are going after whatever new thing comes along, despite it being tiny, while big things are ignored. The Sebastopol City Hall complex hosts a huge mobile tower, KZST & KJZY etc are blasting megawatts, and everyone walking by on the street has a mobile in their pocket. Heck, beyond man-made sources, there's the sun, which bathes you in radiation.

Things like SmartMeters and WiFi just aren't the right target, if you do believe there is harm. They can't be relevant because the power levels are just tiny.

One technical question: what is the EMF field level of the AC wiring in an average home, a circuit breaker panel, etc? How does that level compare to the wireless networking of the new SmartMeter that meters it? Anyone have an EMF field meter to check this? (Dunno if this would really be possible, as the meter is at the breaker panel, so how does one separate the two sources? Compare EMF at a mains panel at a home with and without a SmartMeter perhaps?)

I wonder if the AC itself is a bigger EMF level than the wireless meter..? If so, solve both problems at the same time: no AC utility, thus no SmartMeter to meter it, less EMF!

While talking about off-the-grid along these lines, how's DC? Maybe a few solar panels to feed an array of batteries, to occasionally run a laptop and some basic lighting as needed. I know a few folks who do this in more rural areas.

-Dane

[Chris Murray]

Dane, I suspect you know better - AC and WiFi are apples and oranges. Yes they're both EMF, and amplitude does matter, but frequency is probably far more important.

[danejasper]

Dane, I suspect you know better - AC and WiFi are apples and oranges. Yes they're both EMF, and amplitude does matter, but frequency is probably far more important.

I think they're apples and apples - both harmless (unless you stick your finger in the socket!) both useful, and both unavoidable in modern society. To try to eliminate something like WiFi is simply quixotic, WiFi devices are multiplying like rabbits; the average household has a few today, and this count is growing more and more rapidly. Heck, Apple alone just sold 2,000,000 iPads in 60 days - every one of them with WiFi.

But let's set that aside and presume that frequency matters. If so, does _everyone_ who has refused a SmartMeter not have a cell phone? Do they all eschew downtown, where the big City Hall cell tower is? Have they painted their homes with signal blocking paint? These are simple measures that are more realistic perhaps, and they involve personal choice and empowerment, which I think we could all agree is a good thing.

My point here is that SmartMeters seem like a target of convenience because they're a new thing, not a credible risk by comparison to the other myriad sources which have far higher real world specific absorption rates (even if we only look at similar frequency ranges.)

-Dane

[Chris Murray]

WiFi is actually close to microwave frequency, gets those little water molecules in your body all excited. Having said that, I'm sitting here with my wireless router on the desk in front of me, so I tend to agree with you about the practical effects of it all. Signal level drops off as the square of the distance, I think, so perhaps I should move the router. However, its all about probabilities, and perhaps there's a relationship with the apparent rise in incidence of some cancers and the overall exposure to radiation. One day we'll know, if we're still alive :-)

[Barry]

...
My point here is that SmartMeters seem like a target of convenience because they're a new thing, not a credible risk by comparison to the other myriad sources which have far higher real world specific absorption rates (even if we only look at similar frequency ranges.)

-Dane

Things that also contribute to the RF concern is that someone from a big corporation is coming on to your property to install something that you don't want. I can understand feeling invaded. It can be a rather emotional issue.

The fact that in contributes a negligible amount to the total RF exposure gets lost in that emotional reaction. In fact since the science is undecided (about RF in general), the old meter seemed to work just fine, and the actual RF is invisible, it becomes the perfect receptor for all fears and concerns.

There are other, more plausible reasons not to want the SmartMeter, including accuracy, besides the rather dubious RF concerns.

[CowGal]

And tell me again why we aren't supposed to cook with microwaves? I have used the damn thing so long that I forgot why we weren't supposed to. I know that some people are really wierd about it. Sorry for my ignorance about things electronic, but it seems like there's this old hippy/new age wierdness about RF and microwaves.

Things that also contribute to the RF concern is that someone from a big corporation is coming on to your property to install something that you don't want. I can understand feeling invaded. It can be a rather emotional issue.

The fact that in contributes a negligible amount to the total RF exposure gets lost in that emotional reaction. In fact since the science is undecided (about RF in general), the old meter seemed to work just fine, and the actual RF is invisible, it becomes the perfect receptor for all fears and concerns.

There are other, more plausible reasons not to want the SmartMeter, including accuracy, besides the rather dubious RF concerns.

[edie]

I don't believe rate payers are paying repeated costs- the installers have their hands full with a list to do and just hop over to a neighbor to install the smartdumpdumbmeeter we have to pay for.

A friend of mine had one installed, the TV went blank- black- out right there and then, had to call smartdumpdumbmeeter (the number they give you to call). While on the phone they said they hooked it up again. How does that work?
_______________________________________________________

The crummy thing is that all of the rate payers (that's us) are paying the cost of the repeated visits when folks turn away installers. It's a bit like when folks don't send in their census - it costs the rest of us money.

-Dane

[Debunker]

That you have used a microwave for years says nothing about whether it's harmful or not. Millions of people smoke cigarettes for decades and never get cancer, yet half a million a year die from the habit.

I'm not taking a position in this debate, just pointing out faulty logic. I hope you don't feel like I'm picking on you, the notion that our subjective experience trumps all else is widespread here.

And tell me again why we aren't supposed to cook with microwaves? I have used the damn thing so long that I forgot why we weren't supposed to. I know that some people are really wierd about it. Sorry for my ignorance about things electronic, but it seems like there's this old hippy/new age wierdness about RF and microwaves.

[edie]

Years ago i was reading up a lot on microwave-cooking. In Russia in the early days microwave ovens where prohibited- don't know about today. They said they did lots of research and where against it. There was a guy in Australia who wrote up a lot about it, that was interesting too- he was against it. Basically its supposed to change the chemicals of your food.

I am sure you can find lots of it- updated, on the Web. Just have to dig and you will find lots of info for and against the microwave oven. After that its a personal matter what to do with it.

Yesterday it was the microwave oven, today the smart meeter, tomorrow something else... we are piling them waves up (and might eventually crisscross cook our self slowly...) underground you got the gas- and oil- pipelines crossing continents... and in the next of years I am sure we add a few more things.

I think at this time nobody is sure what all this really does to us.







___________________________________________________

And tell me again why we aren't supposed to cook with microwaves? I have used the damn thing so long that I forgot why we weren't supposed to. I know that some people are really wierd about it. Sorry for my ignorance about things electronic, but it seems like there's this old hippy/new age wierdness about RF and microwaves.

[2Bwacco]

perhaps when the microwave oven (of any vintage) is operating, there may be leakage of microwaves -- not completely contained within the oven. Cautions have been posted for danger to people with pacemakers within their bodies... so the leaking microwaves can cause the pacemakers to function erratically.

no one seems to be concerned about the vulnerability of the dumm-o-meters to hacking - to monitoring of one's energy consumption (i.e. whether or not you are home, or what you are doing) and shut-off potential.

[nicofrog]

Ok
first of all ,SMART technology means
they are tied in with G e the biggest weapons contractors..
everything that needs a computer costs more, environmentally
Like everything else on the surface, it looks like they are saving Money
then they will have to UP_GRADE every 6 months and send the old stuff to china where they can burn it to get the lead out
and we breathe the results.
The money goes to Ge instead of your local walking workers.
A trillion dollars to buy widgets for hotel workers to support our troupes with ..Gee do you think they re-cycle in Iraq ??

I can see it now...Halliburton Waste Management inc.
Blackwater Composting facility...
The new GREEN C.I.A.

Next Its so well within reach for that meter to monitor almost anything
and everything that happens in your house...Not that the C I A would give a rip what happens in your house...but stilll..

Then theres the OLD STUPID Reason I dis like cellphones,((besides the fact that they are too dang small and hard to read and i can't make them work right)) That old reason is...
The blessed or CURSED Mineral essential for the wi'fi effect
is found ONLY in a small mine on the border of Zaiere ((Used to be called Belgian Congo and some other poorer tiny african country,and If I have this story correct..(check greenpeace) the major corporations have been
funding small armies to obtain control of the mineral rights back and forth
for every year since cell phones were invented..Thousand have died or been refugees.
Its called Congolium, or Zaiereium, or Obtanium or some such thing..
I'm installing a DIAL TELEPHONE ! on a land line, I might get one of those new fangled answering machines if I can figure out how to work it.
It's hard, cause the thrift store ones never have the instructions, and I think some little dealie might be missing......

(How ever often YOU needed a computer or a new stereo,the army needed one TWICE as often)

as to the micro waves...anybody heard of the woman who sayed she could transmute any energy!?? she went to a nuke faciliy for a tour, slipped away from the guards and stuck her head inside a reactor!!
to prove her point!! I'm just wondering how that worked out for her.??

A Powerful electro-magnet maybe? sooner Of grid is good.
Good luck,
Nico

PGE was at my place on Monday to install the Smart Meter. I told him no. He said Ok, they will be back. I asked him who else will have them installed today. Nobody in my close neighborhood. I said why only my place- he said "I don't know" (I am the only one without a gate here) most questions I asked him "he didn't know" anything about. The only thing he said was, that the reading will go up because the old meters do not read correctly. I told him thats a big "...."

I called some of my close neighbors and everybody told me they will say no, PGE has no right to change the meters. We may have to go to court. But many people do not know anything about the meters. When there are enough meters installed, we will have no meter-readers anymore.

Anybody know how often they will be back? Or will they turn the electric power off? Or charge us an estimated reading? Or we have to read the meter our self? WHO does know about all that- not even PGE seems to be clear about all that- its all such a wischiwaschy coodlmoodl...

Even if there is something like a last on the list thing- what then? Sooner or later we will all get them? Is that it? Do we all have to go to court later or will we just forget about it?

I understand everybody who has the Smart Meter in Santa Rosa has now a higher bill.

[danejasper]

Ok
first of all ,SMART technology means
they are tied in with G e the biggest weapons contractors..
everything that needs a computer costs more, environmentally
Like everything else on the surface, it looks like they are saving Money
then they will have to UP_GRADE every 6 months and send the old stuff to china where they can burn it to get the lead out
and we breathe the results.
The money goes to Ge instead of your local walking workers.
A trillion dollars to buy widgets for hotel workers to support our troupes with ..Gee do you think they re-cycle in Iraq ??

I can see it now...Halliburton Waste Management inc.
Blackwater Composting facility...
The new GREEN C.I.A.

Next Its so well within reach for that meter to monitor almost anything
and everything that happens in your house...Not that the C I A would give a rip what happens in your house...but stilll..

Then theres the OLD STUPID Reason I dis like cellphones,((besides the fact that they are too dang small and hard to read and i can't make them work right)) That old reason is...
The blessed or CURSED Mineral essential for the wi'fi effect
is found ONLY in a small mine on the border of Zaiere ((Used to be called Belgian Congo and some other poorer tiny african country,and If I have this story correct..(check greenpeace) the major corporations have been
funding small armies to obtain control of the mineral rights back and forth
for every year since cell phones were invented..Thousand have died or been refugees.
Its called Congolium, or Zaiereium, or Obtanium or some such thing..
I'm installing a DIAL TELEPHONE ! on a land line, I might get one of those new fangled answering machines if I can figure out how to work it.
It's hard, cause the thrift store ones never have the instructions, and I think some little dealie might be missing......

(How ever often YOU needed a computer or a new stereo,the army needed one TWICE as often)

as to the micro waves...anybody heard of the woman who sayed she could transmute any energy!?? she went to a nuke faciliy for a tour, slipped away from the guards and stuck her head inside a reactor!!
to prove her point!! I'm just wondering how that worked out for her.??

A Powerful electro-magnet maybe? sooner Of grid is good.
Good luck,
Nico

Awesome.

[2Bwacco]

Sonoma West Times & News June 3, 2010 issue had an article on front page (above the fold, lower right side) about PG&E meters being installed in west county over objections.

Look for next week's issue to have story (complete with quotes from the long suffering - but soon to be even longer-suffering! folks LIVING in the area) on WINE FACTORY coming soon to your neighborhood.