Only cops and crooks have benefited from $2.5 trillion spent fighting trafficking.

[thewholetruth]

Lenny, did you get my email this morning? I emailed to your address in your profile.

[thewholetruth]

It's late, Jeff, and you've said so much about so much that I'll get back to you in the morning.

It's nice that you're so openminded about all of this, sir! That's great to hear!

Don, I've tried to maintain my composure in the face of your immature claptrap on this list. I have put forth my sincere reports of my own experiences and those of my fellows. I have given links to the real, contemporary medical studies now underway as well as links to historical studies that support what I'm saying. The fact that you have learned nothing is not surprising to me. You have a very narrow point of view about all this based on your own personal experiences which you have made abundantly clear.

I have supported what I say with facts. You have offered your opinions which I have proven to be in error with facts. You obviously are not interested in doing your homework on this issue, which is strange to me since you claim to be a teacher and an exemplar in this field.

You complain of others using drugs as a crutch, while you submit to a religious cult that could easily be viewed by others as a crutch. It is a cult that divides families, steals time and money away from other pursuits, aggrandizes itself with the construction of massive monuments, focuses on the collection of "gold" (do a search on gold in your searchable Bible), defines and demonizes enemies (do a search on enemies in your searchable Bible), has empowered and sheltered child molesters, blames others for adherents bad behaviors (the Devil made me do it) and finally, offers instant gratification even following a life of evil and debauchery as long as there is a deathbed confession. Seems pretty sick to me, but I don't demand that cult be outlawed. That cult has arguably caused more harm and misery on this Earth than all other forces combined, certainly more than drug use and abuse, but I look to the fact there are good Christians out there. My own dear mother is one of them. A lot of your cult members are doing fine things as a result of their membership and I applaud them for that. I think the ones that harm others through the missapplication of their cultish powers should be punished and, thankfully, some few of them have been in recent years although the majority will probably never be caught.

I've never heard of a group of potheads starting a war. Pot is a lot safer than Christianity and I think that's well proven by history.

Despite all the problems I'm not calling for the outlawing of Christianity. I guess that makes me a lot more open minded than you, Don.

-Jeff

[Zeno Swijtink]

Attempts at inserting familiarity, and manners, si- um, I mean bro.

I'm surprised to hear you say it comes off as aggressive, Zeno. I would think that if I didn't make any attempt to be polite, you might find THAT more aggressive.

Frankly, I post the way I do because that's the way I speak to people - at least... perhaps that's not accurate. Perhaps I insert your name (and others') in order to create a pause, so that you might absorb what I just said, and then be prepared for the next part of my comment.

Hadn't given it much thought. I've posted on boards for about 15 years now. I just post how I post. I don't intentionally do either of those things.

I now wonder whether you served in a branch of the military. Remember seeing in some movies the phrase: "Permission to speak freely, Sir. "

In progressive circles around here this constant throwing in of sirs and ones name comes over as aggressive.

[Zeno Swijtink]

While I appreciate your personal testimony on Jeff's behalf, I find your inquiry regarding dancing, movies, musit, sports, etc. to be absurd. When doing all of those things, one is not intoxicated. If you want to make a comparison, Conrad, an accurate comparison would be getting drunk, getting wired - all forms of intoxication and inebriation. Watching movies doesn't cause intoxication, nor does listening to music. If you need to run someone to the hospital in an emergency situation - your child, perhaps - would you be equally capable to drive if you were loaded on LSD as you would be if your listening to music?

See the illogic in your comparison now?

If you find someone's posting absurd but really want to understand this person you need to hypothesize a pov from with the posting makes sense.

[thewholetruth]

I now wonder whether you served in a branch of the military. Remember seeing in some movies the phrase: "Permission to speak freely, Sir. "

In progressive circles around here this constant throwing in of sirs and ones name comes over as aggressive.

Interesting that a term of respect is considered aggressive by an entire group of individuals. I have to wonder why that is. Perhaps it's because it begs for the other person to be respectful, as well? What do you think?

BTW, you're the only one I recall having a problem with it...dood. ;-)

[thewholetruth]

If you find someone's posting absurd but really want to understand this person you need to hypothesize a pov from with the posting makes sense.

I'm afraid your comment didn't make sense to me...

[Zeno Swijtink]

Interesting that a term of respect is considered aggressive by an entire group of individuals. I have to wonder why that is. Perhaps it's because it begs for the other person to be respectful, as well? What do you think?

BTW, you're the only one I recall having a problem with it...dood. ;-)

It's because sir-ring and using someone name when you talk to them - instead of a Thou -creates distance. It denies the bond that is supposed to be established by being in their presence. And it reminds people of the military.

[Zeno Swijtink]

BTW, you're the only one I recall having a problem with it...dood. ;-)

Conrad (The Independent Eye) expressed the same sentiment many moons ago.

[Dixon]

FWIW, I'll weigh in on this "sir" thing:

Interesting that a term of respect is considered aggressive by an entire group of individuals. I have to wonder why that is. Perhaps it's because it begs for the other person to be respectful, as well?

BTW, you're the only one I recall having a problem with it...dood. ;-)

I would not call it "aggressive" to use the term "sir", but I don't think "term of respect" describes its use quite accurately either. When I was required to call officers "sir" in the Army, they called it "respect", but it was clearly about submission, which is only mistaken for respect by those with authoritarian tendencies.

In civilian life, "sir" bothers me a bit because it usually seems to have a distancing effect, with undertones of hierarchical structuring of relationships (who's dominant, who's submissive). But in fairness, I think it is often intended as a term of respect.

I'm quite comfortable with you using "sir" if you want, Don. Heathen knows there are more important things to worry about. I'd like to give you the benefit of the doubt and think you use it as a term of respect, but perhaps you can see that it's hard to feel respected when you call us things like "fool" for disagreeing with you, or characterize our positions as "lies from Hell", or suggest we should be criminalized for using different drugs than you even if we're hurting no one. If you could show a little more respect in those ways, I'm sure the "sir' issue would disappear entirely.

Regards;

Dixon

[MsTerry]

BTW, you're the only one I recall having a problem with it...dood. ;-)

Not true, Sir Don Christian.

Interesting that a term of respect is considered aggressive by an entire group of individuals. I have to wonder why that is. Perhaps it's because it begs for the other person to be respectful, as well? What do you think?

Not true, Sir Don Christian.

[thewholetruth]

FWIW, I'll weigh in on this "sir" thing:



I would not call it "aggressive" to use the term "sir", but I don't think "term of respect" describes its use quite accurately either. When I was required to call officers "sir" in the Army, they called it "respect", but it was clearly about submission, which is only mistaken for respect by those with authoritarian tendencies.

In civilian life, "sir" bothers me a bit because it usually seems to have a distancing effect, with undertones of hierarchical structuring of relationships (who's dominant, who's submissive). But in fairness, I think it is often intended as a term of respect.

I'm quite comfortable with you using "sir" if you want, Don. Heathen knows there are more important things to worry about. I'd like to give you the benefit of the doubt and think you use it as a term of respect...

Thank you.

... but perhaps you can see that it's hard to feel respected when you call us things like "fool" for disagreeing with you...

It's an interesting place to be, a message board like this. I've always felt that either a person is open to learning the truth or they are not. As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another, and I've found message boards to serve that purpose for me personally, to the point of having significant impact and facilitating major change in my thinking and so, in my life. The changes which have taken place in my mind and in my heart, and so, in my life since I began to participate in boards like this would never have taken place if people hadn't shared openly and honestly their thoughts, knowledge and opinions. It's forced me to assess and reassess my own beliefs and opinions, and continues to do so today.

That being said, when someone posts foolishness (it has a definition, you know, as does "fool" - see https://dictionary.reference.com/browse/fool #12 for the opposite of "fool" which, IMO, should be the goal of adults, as iron sharpens iron, and as there is wisdom in the counsel of many), I see no reason not to say so, if that's is how I perceive it. I trust that if someone has some facts with which to show me that it's not foolishness at all, they will, in turn, present them. Our country has developed within her a horribly codependent nature that is based on foolishness and ignorance. I can't not see it. Driven by personal agenda ALWAYS (it either makes us feel good or serves to get people to like us, or supports our misconceived notion that anything might be more important than the truth (talking about adults now, not about children).

In short, someone has called me on my foolishness along the way and it's helped me (still helps me) to see the truth about many things, things about which I had bought into completely or partially, which had a significant impact on my life and relationships. If ever I refer to one's comments as those which are a fool's comments, please correct me if I'm wrong. If there are facts or circumstances which prove a given statement to be TRUE and NOT a lie from Hell, I trust that the adults who post here will offer that up in order to correct me.

For calling anyone here a "fool", I apologize. We all buy into foolish notions from time to time, and so the same could be said about all of us. Perhaps if I took more time to proofread, walk away, come back and reread what I'm about to post, most certainly my comments would be different than are with me posting on the fly like I do. Again, I apologize for calling anyone a "fool" here. What would have been more accurate would have been to refer to their comment as "foolishness".

...or characterize our positions as "lies from Hell", or suggest we should be criminalized for using different drugs than you even if we're hurting no one. If you could show a little more respect in those ways, I'm sure the "sir' issue would disappear entirely.

Regards;

Dixon

There is no doubt in my mind, sir, that if information being offered isn't the truth, then it is either a mistake or it is a blatant lie from Hell. I am one who subscribes to the belief that we are in the middle of spiritual warfare here in this life, and those things which are said which convince people of, or make people believe lies, IMO, are just that: lies from Hell. Frankly, if someone tells me that what I'm purporting to be truth is a lie from Hell, I'll quickly take a look at what my statement is based upon.

Like Bob Dylan so aptly noted: You gotta serve somebody. It might be the Devil or it might be the Lord but you gotta serve somebody. I believe that is the truth, and that Bob was right about that. Not everyone agrees, I know, but I will not compromise what I know to be truth in order not to hurt another adult's feelings. I have more respect than that for other people. Love your neighbor as your self? I would want to be told if someone thinks I've bought into lies from Hell, Dixon, so I can at least take a look at it. I hope this takes a little of the sting out of my remarks for you, Dixon, so that you might engage more fully, being less offended, knowing where I'm coming from. I'm simply iron, sharpening iron, or else the other iron is pulling away, in which case it is not being sharpened at all. In that case, I move on, seeking more iron with which to rub up against. And I understand that some iron isn't seeking to be sharpened. In those cases, a message board like this might not be the optimal place to spend their time, because someone just might care enought to disagree...

[thewholetruth]

Not true, Sir Don Christian.

Not true, Sir Don Christian.

Here to seek the truth and intelligent dialogue, I reach over and put Ms. Terry back onto my personal "ignore" list, until such time that her antiChristian bigotry no longer squirts out of her comments at me...

[MsTerry]

Here to seek the truth and intelligent dialogue, I reach over and put Ms. Terry back onto my personal "ignore" list, until such time that her antiChristian bigotry no longer squirts out of her comments at me...

I'm honored and flattered to know that you keep a special place for me
Oh, BTW, it was You Sir Don who asked me to address you with the word Christian

MsTerry wrote:
Should I start calling you names too? Which one do you prefer?

"Christian" would work for me. "Sir" works for me, as well,

Did you conveniently forget?
I thought I should follow your example, and address people like you politely.
How come you got offended now?

[Lorrie]

TWO WOLVES One evening an old Cherokee told his grandson about a battle that goes on inside all people. He said, 'My son, the battle is between two 'wolves' inside us all. One is Evil. It is anger, envy, jealousy, sorrow, regret, greed, arrogance, self-pity, guilt, resentment, inferiority, lies, false pride, superiority, and ego. The other is Good. It is joy, peace, love, hope, serenity, humility, kindness, benevolence, empathy, generosity, truth, compassion and faith.' The grandson thought about it for a minute and then asked his grandfather: 'Which wolf wins?' The old Cherokee simply replied, 'The one you feed.'

["Mad" Miles]

Re: "Sir" as a form of Respect,

For years, whenever someone addressed me as Sir, I would reply. Please don't call me Sir, I'm the son, grandson and great-great-grandson of Army officers, and now I'm an anti-militarist, when I was a kid I wanted to be a Medieval Knight, until I realized they were just the most successful rapist, pillagers and murderers of their time, I work for a living, don't call me Sir.

Then I became a school teacher, doing a lot of subbing in the beginning. Now I teach at San Quentin. I was, and am, addressed as Sir on a regular basis. I take Sir as a term of respect, I use it often now myself. Who has the time to explain over and over? (Although I do raise the issue once and while, like in this instance.)

Sir came from Master. Mister is a softening of the same, reflecting the rise of the egalitarian Middle Class.

It's complicated. As in all things it's a matter of interpretation, and context.

Have a good evening Ladies and Gentlemen,

"Mad" Miles



P.S. I work with "cops and crooks" four days a week, ten hours a day. And yes a lot of it is about the war on drugs. Among other interrelated factors.
(Poverty, Racism, Broken families without support, overcrowded underfunded badly organized schools and no mental health care being the other big ones. And yes, there are a few sociopaths and psychopaths out there, and inside, but they are a very small minority.)

[thewholetruth]

I'm honored and flattered to know that you keep a special place for me
Oh, BTW, it was You Sir Don who asked me to address you with the word Christian

Did you conveniently forget?
I thought I should follow your example, and address people like you politely.
How come you got offended now?

I didn't ask you to address me with the word Christian, Ma'am. You are simply mistaken about that.

[thewholetruth]

Good for you, Miles. We work with the same kinds of individuals, although in different settings. I appreciate your work, sir.

Re: "Sir" as a form of Respect,

For years, whenever someone addressed me as Sir, I would reply. Please don't call me Sir, I'm the son, grandson and great-great-grandson of Army officers, and now I'm an anti-militarist, when I was a kid I wanted to be a Medieval Knight, until I realized they were just the most successful rapist, pillagers and murderers of their time, I work for a living, don't call me Sir.

Then I became a school teacher, doing a lot of subbing in the beginning. Now I teach at San Quentin. I was, and am, addressed as Sir on a regular basis. I take Sir as a term of respect, I use it often now myself. Who has the time to explain over and over? (Although I do raise the issue once and while, like in this instance.)

Sir came from Master. Mister is a softening of the same, reflecting the rise of the egalitarian Middle Class.

It's complicated. As in all things it's a matter of interpretation, and context.

Have a good evening Ladies and Gentlemen,

"Mad" Miles



P.S. I work with "cops and crooks" four days a week, ten hours a day. And yes a lot of it is about the war on drugs. Among other interrelated factors.
(Poverty, Racism, Broken families without support, overcrowded underfunded badly organized schools and no mental health care being the other big ones. And yes, there are a few sociopaths and psychopaths out there, and inside, but they are a very small minority.)

[thewholetruth]

I'm honored and flattered to know that you keep a special place for me
Oh, BTW, it was You Sir Don who asked me to address you with the word Christian

Did you conveniently forget?
I thought I should follow your example, and address people like you politely.
How come you got offended now?

I've not been Knighted, Ma'am, nor have I ever asked anyone to call me "Christian". I detect mucho sarcasm and acid attitude in your posts toward me, both generally and specifically from post to post.

I'm not offended. I simply ignore those who wish to do battle with me, most of the time.

[Zeno Swijtink]

Re: "Sir" as a form of Respect

One sir is ok. Sirring every third sentence feels like rhetorical gunfire.

[thewholetruth]

One sir is ok. Sirring every third sentence feels like rhetorical gunfire.

Feelings just are, sir. Don't put a lot of value on them personally, much of the time. They come, they go, sometimes valid, sometimes not, oftentimes random, sometimes foul, illegal, immoral, irrational, ridiculous, powerful, intense, amazing, incredible...but the truth is that they just are. They don't always mean something, nor is it necessary to say or do something just because I have one.

Seriously, if someone calling you sir on a regular basis, sir, "feels like rhetorical gunfire", then I would tend to abandon and ignore that feeling, myself. It's not worth the time it takes to even acknowledge it's there...IMHO, anyway.

[thewholetruth]

One sir is ok. Sirring every third sentence feels like rhetorical gunfire.

I'm in a big place 5 days a week, sometimes 50-60 hours a week (that dang salary). Nearly 100 beds and I call everyone either Mr. Soandso or sir. I counsel a lot of people every day, and I counsel the counselors, maintain ongoing active relationships with Parole, Probation, the DA's office, Public Defender's office, private attorneys, other treatment centers and local businesses and individuals seeking treatment for themselves or for a friend or family member. I talk to a lot of people. I use the term "sir" a lot every day.

Don't take it personally. I use it as a term of respect...sir.

[Zeno Swijtink]

Feelings just are, sir. Don't put a lot of value on them personally, much of the time. They come, they go, sometimes valid, sometimes not, oftentimes random, sometimes foul, illegal, immoral, irrational, ridiculous, powerful, intense, amazing, incredible...but the truth is that they just are. They don't always mean something, nor is it necessary to say or do something just because I have one.

Seriously, if someone calling you sir on a regular basis, sir, "feels like rhetorical gunfire", then I would tend to abandon and ignore that feeling, myself. It's not worth the time it takes to even acknowledge it's there...IMHO, anyway.

But doesn't your intention to be polite have a lot to do with an expectation that being polite evokes feelings of amity? You must have some interest and attach some importance to feelings.

[Zeno Swijtink]

I'm in a big place 5 days a week, sometimes 50-60 hours a week (that dang salary). Nearly 100 beds and I call everyone either Mr. Soandso or sir. I counsel a lot of people every day, and I counsel the counselors, maintain ongoing active relationships with Parole, Probation, the DA's office, Public Defender's office, private attorneys, other treatment centers and local businesses and individuals seeking treatment for themselves or for a friend or family member. I talk to a lot of people. I use the term "sir" a lot every day.

Don't take it personally. I use it as a term of respect...sir.

But if you sir every third sentence, isn't that a sign that you are on autopilot? Relax, this is not work, and there is no salary

[Lenny]

Quote:
Lenny wrote:
History, Jeff.
Chinese to be specific, circa 1700 to 1904.
Or more recently, a quick snapshot of USA, circa 1964, prior to LSD becoming illegal.
Maybe that's why it became illegal? Do ya think?
Fire good. No, Fire bad.......

Couple of minor points Lenny: we aren't in China. The year is 2008. Things are different.

You are right. It is a minor point. No matter what group, race, place or year, human beings are human. The availability of drugs in the mass population will lead to the problems of that period: folks getting strung out. Just as it happened with US from 1880 to 1914 as you pointed out in the "History of Bayer" or heroin you cited. Decriminalize and they will come in increasing numbers, ruinous to the population. Not a minor point, simply history.

So let's look at 1964. What happened? Perhaps you could remind us.
And this was the question that you didn't answer:

Quote:
Braggi wrote:
So, Lenny, would you start habitually taking LSD if it were legalized tomorrow? How many people that you know well would?
Perhaps you could try again.
-Jeff

Well, Jeff, that was personal and anecdotal for the most part. Having grown up in San Francisco and being on "the scene" that was the year in California LSD became illegal to sell or posses. This was due to folks taking it and "getting out there" with not a lot of anybody knowing how to deal with it. Actually I think it became illegal to sell and then a few months later, illegal to posses. Actually folks were out here for a couple of years prior to that taking LSD. As Timothy Leary and Richard Alpert and a few others were still at Harvard touting their East Coast trips, out here folks were doing other things with that acid. Lots of folks out here booed Leary and associates as he wanted folks to take acid HIS way and he was thought as a "fascist" type of guy!
Anyway, it is clear and easy to see why LSD was made illegal.
Oh,and to answer your personal question: no, LSD would not be taken daily, though I know of those that did back in the day. Too bad. But then LSD is not that kind of drug now, is it? As is other Class 1 drugs are, no?

[MsTerry]

I didn't ask you to address me with the word Christian, Ma'am. You are simply mistaken about that.

No Don, thewholetruth is that you are lying now.

"Christian" would work for me. "Sir" works for me, as well,

[MsTerry]

I've not been Knighted, Ma'am, nor have I ever asked anyone to call me "Christian".

you are repeating a lie

"Christian" would work for me. "Sir" works for me, as well,

[MsTerry]

I'm not offended. I simply ignore those who wish to do battle with me, most of the time.

How many time does the rooster have to crow, Don???

[thewholetruth]

But if you sir every third sentence, isn't that a sign that you are on autopilot? Relax, this is not work, and there is no salary

No, sir. It's a sign of respect.

[thewholetruth]

How many time does the rooster have to crow, Don???

To get to the other side?

Ohhh, that's the chicken riddle I'm thinking of. I'll bite. How many, Ma'am?

[thewholetruth]

you are repeating a lie

I didn't ask you to call me that, like you said I did, Ma'am. I simply said it would work for me. Your intentional disrespect is glaringly obvious, Ms. Terry. I'm not going to play this game where you pretend it's not.

Have a nice day, Ma'am...