Wolf Hybrid Buyer Beware

[jillybean]

What you have done by breeding these hybrids and then trying to sell them for a ridiculously high price is unethical! Hybrids are not to be taken lightly and sold as regular household pets, they are part wolf, and should only be in the hands of very savvy dog owners. To justify your high fee, b/c of feeding raw food is ludicrous as well. You are a backyard breeder who knows nothing about genetics and breeding and the world doesn't need more dogs, let alone wolf hybrids going to people who don't have a greater understanding of this breeding. People, BEWARE, don't get caught up in something you know very little about. Look at all the wildlife sanctuaries housing wild animals and hybrids, locked in cages, b/c these animals get big and can do great damage to you and your family.

GET EDUCATED before you waste your money, this is a scam!

go to: https://www.wolfsanctum.org/
www.dancingbrookelodge.org
www.howlingacres.org/

need I say more?

~jill
www.shewhisperer.com

[Malene]

Jill,

Your generalizations really doesnt reflect too well on you or your work. It also makes it harder to come through with valid points when you speak as harshly as this.

Malene

[Barbara]

Personally, I don't care what animal is being bred--dog/cat, etc. We need to STOP the breeding. Why? Because "born to die" is what is happening all over the country. Purebred dog/cat breeders are just as responsible for the killings as backyard breeders. The reason is usually the same ($) for purebred breeders and backyard breeders. Only breeders who are trying to preserve the best traits of their breeds should be breeding. If one is looking to buy a purebred dog/cat, one should ask the breeder "Why are you breeding?" If the answer is something less than preserving the best traits of the breed, (and what are they?) this is not a reputable breeder. One needs to educate oneself about breed problems before buying from a breeder (or God forbid, a petstore).

As far as wolf-hybreds, my limited knowledge is that they can attack owners if just a limp of the human is detected. These dogs (?) are not family pets. They are wild animals reacting to what nature intended--survival.

[Malene]

My call is to stop the sweeping statements that are based on a black and white mindset and generalizations.

Yes - I agree - too many pets are born to die. Too many breeders are irresponsible, too many humans mistreat their pets. Too many humans mistreat their children as well. I wish we could control the reproduction of humans at times... Just not do-able is it?

I agree it would be nice if much more effort were put into rescuing animals than breeding them. Incidentally I know some breeders who are also very involved with rescue efforts - again it is not a black and white thing.

Responsible breeders have huge expenses, and rarely recoup all of them. Which is the way it should be. There are actually responsible breeders on the market. There are breeders that work to enhance their breed. They work to enhance physical traits (who cares!), and they work to enhance certain character traits. Again - lets withhold the generalizations and sweeping statements!

In fact I wish the only animals being bred today was from responsible breeders. That would for certain stop a lot of the abuse. Instead some people point the fingers at responsible breeders for the acts of those humans (including irresponsible breeders) who mistreat their animals. Doesnt quite seem fair. Again - yes - I am aware many breeders are not responsible. I just dont like the finger pointing and generalizations going on.

All breeders are not bad.
All hybrids does not turn and attack their humans.

Yes - I am certain that some hybrids are not completely tameable. I am certain that early generation hybrids have very specific needs and are not for the general public. Some people will have the knowledge and patience to handle them.

Many dogs and cats can attack humans if humans are not educated on how to handle them. Hybrids need even more educated humans around them.

Again, lets just not generalize and make too sweeping statements. Lets not be prejudiced against everyone based on the actions of some.

Malene

Personally, I don't care what animal is being bred--dog/cat, etc. We need to STOP the breeding. Why? Because "born to die" is what is happening all over the country. Purebred dog/cat breeders are just as responsible for the killings as backyard breeders. The reason is usually the same ($) for purebred breeders and backyard breeders. Only breeders who are trying to preserve the best traits of their breeds should be breeding. If one is looking to buy a purebred dog/cat, one should ask the breeder "Why are you breeding?" If the answer is something less than preserving the best traits of the breed, (and what are they?) this is not a reputable breeder. One needs to educate oneself about breed problems before buying from a breeder (or God forbid, a petstore).

As far as wolf-hybreds, my limited knowledge is that they can attack owners if just a limp of the human is detected. These dogs (?) are not family pets. They are wild animals reacting to what nature intended--survival.

[Anagon]

I just wanted to say that I agree with preserving the best traits but I don't think pure breds are very healthy. And also I think that "breeders" try and breed in the best traits based primarily on looks rather than character. Also there are many differences between wolf hybrids and it's important to note that it matters what percentage they are and perhaps more important is the Filial number, some more information: The filial number refers to the number of generations that a wolfdog is removed from a pure wolf. For example, an F1 wolfdog has one parent who is a pure wolf. The other parent can be a wolfdog or a dog. An F2 refers to an animal that has at least one grandparent who is a pure wolf. An F3 wolfdog is one that has at least one great grandparent who is a pure wolf; so this animal would be three generations removed from a wolf. With selective breeding for tameness, one could achieve domestication by the third generation. ¹ (NOTE: The previous assertion pertains to the selective breeding of a line of wolfdogs for tameness, not random breeding, and does not pertain to entire litters, but to specific animals within those litters.) The wolfdogs I have are NOT F1, nor were their parents or grandparents. They are extremely sweet and loving and have never attacked another person or even another dog. I have a male who is unneutered and has been attacked once by a giant pitbull and that is the only time he has been attacked because he is so friendly and good natured. He didn't fight back and he has certainly never attacked me or my family. On the contrary if I get hurt, I'm sick or I'm limping he's extra sweet and caring and takes care of me! Also it obviously depends more than anything how they are raised and treated. I give these beings as much love as I have to give and I get 10x that back from them. I don't keep them in cages or in the backyard etc, they are in the house with me or outside whenever they want. It also looks like Jillybean made a second thread here and so I will post my response to her here as well....

As stated before I'm not a "breeder" or a backyard breeder who knows nothing about genetics or wolf hybrids. I have had wolf hybrids for more than 10 years and have blessed my close friends and family members with these beautiful beings. They have created such joy in peoples lives that I have seen first hand that amazes me day after day. The second most important thing you may have missed is that I stated specifically families will be screened/interviewed before any of the puppies are placed in homes. Most likely I will only have 1-2 to actually sell and asking $2,500 is reasonable in my opinion. If you look online you'll see "breeders" selling wolves and wolf hybrids for $3k+ and they "ship anywhere". They are doing this as a business and often just keep their wolfdogs in cages for the majority of their lives. This is wrong, and this is not what I'm about in any way. I also stated if someone is very interested and is the perfect match for this special being that I would be willing to work with them. And frankly I don't understand how asking any amount has anything to do with anything else you said in your email. I understand that hybrids are not to be taken lightly and I'm not all about money and will sell them to the first interested person. And yes, vet bills, expensive organic raw meat dog food gets extremely high and it's nice to be able to recoup a portion of my costs. If I have the choice between selling a puppy for 2-3k to someone who knows nothing about wolfdogs and/or doesn't have the time necessary to spend with them vs someone who doesn't have the money but has the time and the heart, I'm definitely going to choose the person who might not be able to afford this. Countless times people have came up to me and inquired as to how my wolfdogs came to be so incredibly sweet, nonviolent, beautiful, kind and loving. Wolf hybrids are not for everyone but the lucky few who do have them (at least from me personally) have not regretted it with the exception of one woman who got in a car accident, called me and told me she didn't think she had the physical ability to give her wolfdog the care and attention he should have and so I found another home for him. I keep in touch with most, if not all of the puppies who have gone to homes with people and I check in on them to make sure everything is going okay. I am NOT a backyard breeder, nor am I a "scam" who is trying to make a bunch of money and in fact I don't make ANY money at all. If I break even it would be a miracle but it doesn't matter to me because I'm not doing it for the money period. The last litter of puppies I had was 5-6 years ago. I really wish you could understand how much I care and how much I am not those things you said in your public message to everyone. In the future it would be nice if you had questions or concerns that you would contact me directly, although I am thankful for the opportunity to share with more people. If you have any further questions, or if anyone else does I would be happy to talk with you on the phone or via email. I would request public messages not to be posted so email inboxes don't get clogged but if you feel you must I will be happy to reply publicly as well. Thank you and I hope that in the future you will talk with someone personally before publicly trying to discredit them when you know little about the situation you speak of.

Sincerely,
Analeah

Personally, I don't care what animal is being bred--dog/cat, etc. We need to STOP the breeding. Why? Because "born to die" is what is happening all over the country. Purebred dog/cat breeders are just as responsible for the killings as backyard breeders. The reason is usually the same ($) for purebred breeders and backyard breeders. Only breeders who are trying to preserve the best traits of their breeds should be breeding. If one is looking to buy a purebred dog/cat, one should ask the breeder "Why are you breeding?" If the answer is something less than preserving the best traits of the breed, (and what are they?) this is not a reputable breeder. One needs to educate oneself about breed problems before buying from a breeder (or God forbid, a petstore).

As far as wolf-hybreds, my limited knowledge is that they can attack owners if just a limp of the human is detected. These dogs (?) are not family pets. They are wild animals reacting to what nature intended--survival.

[Malene]

This is exactly why I call to not generalize all dogs of a certain breed, or all cats of a certain breed, or everyone who breeds those dogs and cats.

As with the bengal cats mentioned in my other email it is not surprising to me to hear that wolf dogs have to go through some generations before they are completely tameable. Bengal cats are not considered pets until they reach their 4th generation.

Breeding a wild related animal into our domestic population is a controversial endeavor. If I hadnt met my sweet boy Niles I would be vocal against it. Now I just cant do that. The results are too amazing!

Malene

[Moon]

I believe you when you say you really care about the animals you breed and the
humans who adopt them. There's still the problem, which has been mentioned
several times in this forum, that the US euthanizes millions of dogs and cats every year,
and those are the lucky ones. Every dog "bought" from a breeder is one fewer saved
from euthanasia. Dog lovers and cat lovers need to get together and
pick a tiny number of breeders to maintain each breed wisely. Before
anyone "buys" a dog or cat, spend a week holding animals while the shelter
vet euthanizes them.

[PeriodThree]

I'm going to go ahead and express my basic and speciistic biases here. i think there this discussion boils down to a difference in core values. Some people have decided, to quote Jeremy Rifkin, that "a rat is a pig is a boy is a dog").

These people have created an explicit moral equivalence between rats and pits and people. In this system of values, mistreating a rat is morally equivalent to mistreating a person.

In my system of values the problem of one human, say Moon, or jillybean, dumping their load of judgment and shoulds and woulds and coulds on to another human, say this person who has puppies she wants to sell, is _far greater_ and _far worse_ than the problem which you identify of 'the US' euthanizing millions of dogs and cats every year.

The 14th (and current) Dalai Lama has been quoted as saying "My religion is very simple. My religion is kindness."

I am open to change in my opinions, but at least right now, and from my perspective, what you (Moon) have done is to very explicitly accuse this person who loves dogs of being personally responsible for the 'millions of dogs' which some nebulous thing called 'the US' euthanizes each year.

From my deeply personal perspective, the people who have created this moral equivalence between what this person is doing by manifesting her love for these dogs and 'euthanizing millions of dogs' are intentionally inflicting the opposite of kindness on this woman who loves dogs.

I can sort of see the roots of your argument, but I have to come out swinging on the other side.

Trying to link what she is doing with killing millions of dogs is a cruel and nasty, and wrong thing for Moon and Jillybean to be doing.

I _know_ I am a freak and all, but I would rather have you torture my beloved dog than to inflict the level of hate you are inflicting on this woman.

In my value system (and I know there are other and different value systems) the emotional feelings of people are more important than the lives and feelings of dogs.

And I _know_ that a lot of local people disagree with me.

Funny, in a sort of sick way :0)

There's still the problem, which has been mentioned
several times in this forum, that the US euthanizes millions of dogs and cats every year,
and those are the lucky ones. Every dog "bought" from a breeder is one fewer saved
from euthanasia.

[Malene]

Hey Rich,

Interesting - I always thought that the Dalai Lama included animals as recipients of kindness.

I disagree with you slightly here.

It is wrong for us - all of us - to be a party to have millions of animals put to sleep every year.

It is wrong for irresponsible people to breed animals.

It is wrong to accuse those who do take care of their animal companions, or who breeds responsibly for the ills of the animal nation. The problems with euthanised animals is not caused by responsible breeders and animal guardians - but by irresponsible people not taking care of their own animal companions.

It is wrong to speak in a demeaning way to others.

Doing one of these wrongs does not make it ok for others to do another. IE - two wrongs doesnt make a right.

Malene

[PeriodThree]

Interesting - I always thought that the Dalai Lama included animals as recipients of kindness.

I don't have the same feelings, but I totally accept the legitimacy of the human-animal equivalence!

I disagree with you slightly here.

It is wrong for us - all of us - to be a party to have millions of animals put to sleep every year.

It is wrong for irresponsible people to breed animals.

It is wrong to accuse those who do take care of their animal companions, or who breeds responsibly for the ills of the animal nation. The problems with euthanised animals is not caused by responsible breeders and animal guardians - but by irresponsible people not taking care of their own animal companions.

It is wrong to speak in a demeaning way to others.

Doing one of these wrongs does not make it ok for others to do another. IE - two wrongs doesnt make a right.

Malene

I don't think I disagree with anything you wrote, other than perhaps to give _slightly_ different weightings to different wrongs.

I might thing that 'a' is _really_ bad, while you think it is 'somewhat' bad. I don't think I think anything is 'right' which you think is 'wrong' - all a matter of degree...

[Lenny]

Quote:

Interesting - I always thought that the Dalai Lama included animals as recipients of kindness.

I don't have the same feelings, but I totally accept the legitimacy of the human-animal equivalence!

PT, I've not had my first cuppa this morning, but are you stating you find the notion that pig=boy=rat to be a sound and valid position? Or you simply "accept" that there are people that hold that to be a valid and operable argument? I trust there are folks that hold that true, as I know there are folks that speak Javanese and I will never be able to communicate with them. Is that what you are putting out here?

[jillybean]

I must say that this is not about ego/judgment or hate, all of which is stated in this post.

My intention in my post to the sale of wolf/hybrids, is about a species of animals that is being sold to the general public w/out the education behind it. As an animal behaviorist for 30+yrs, and seeing the problems people have w/ our typical domesticated dogs, w/ aggression, chewing, normal puppy stuff and then for whatever reason, they don't stay committed to their puppy, and it ends up in many homes, in a shelter, on the street, whatever..... The hybrid is a completely different animal, and should not be taken lightly or misrepresented as a great household pet dog. When I put the links to only 3 of many wolf and hybrid santuaries, I was hoping that people would educate themselves about this breed and see that this cute little puppy will grow up and be much more difficult to have as a household pet, thereby making a responsible decision and hopefully turn anyone else on, who is thinking about BUYING one of these wolfdogs, so that we can spread the word about responsible ownership.
We have domesticated these dogs, but instinct is instinct and if one doesn't completely understand the nature of a dog or the nature of a wolf, or the nature of a wolf/hybrid, then we are clearly in trouble. Look around folks, look how many shelters, animal sanctuaries, humane societies we have across the nation, and then choose what's best and most responsible when deciding on which breed to get or to rescue a dog.
This posting has brought up many very relevant issues, here, and this is always good. We are thinking, more clearly about the whole notion of dogs as pets, at ownership, at our responsibilities, at more sustainable choices we DO have, buying vs rescuing, about the nature of the beast, about educating ourselves on what a hybrid really is, and what are the pros and cons of owning a wolf/dog.

The Dali Lama, St Francis of Assissi, and more speak to kindness to all sentient beings, but do we have to quote one of these beings, to know what's right in our own hearts? I say, NO, WE KNOW! We know, not to eat too much to be healthy, we know not to be excessive in our daily lives, we know what's good for us, we know war is not the answer, we know, sex is not love, we know, but do we always follow our gut/instinct, do we always do what's right? NO!

In this light, we are all speaking our passion and we all have valid points, and the big picture here, is to be a conscious in our endeavors, conscious in our responsibility to ourselves, our neighbor, our animal kingdom, and our planet.

Is breeding and selling wolf/hybrids a sustainable, responsible and kind thing for us to be doing right here, right now, on this planet.

We have a recession going on, people are starving, homeless, being left behind, and the list goes on.

FOR SALE: WOLFDOGS: $2500, come and get em!

I think not.

~jill

I'm going to go ahead and express my basic and speciistic biases here. i think there this discussion boils down to a difference in core values. Some people have decided, to quote Jeremy Rifkin, that "a rat is a pig is a boy is a dog").

These people have created an explicit moral equivalence between rats and pits and people. In this system of values, mistreating a rat is morally equivalent to mistreating a person.

In my system of values the problem of one human, say Moon, or jillybean, dumping their load of judgment and shoulds and woulds and coulds on to another human, say this person who has puppies she wants to sell, is _far greater_ and _far worse_ than the problem which you identify of 'the US' euthanizing millions of dogs and cats every year.

The 14th (and current) Dalai Lama has been quoted as saying "My religion is very simple. My religion is kindness."

I am open to change in my opinions, but at least right now, and from my perspective, what you (Moon) have done is to very explicitly accuse this person who loves dogs of being personally responsible for the 'millions of dogs' which some nebulous thing called 'the US' euthanizes each year.

From my deeply personal perspective, the people who have created this moral equivalence between what this person is doing by manifesting her love for these dogs and 'euthanizing millions of dogs' are intentionally inflicting the opposite of kindness on this woman who loves dogs.

I can sort of see the roots of your argument, but I have to come out swinging on the other side.

Trying to link what she is doing with killing millions of dogs is a cruel and nasty, and wrong thing for Moon and Jillybean to be doing.

I _know_ I am a freak and all, but I would rather have you torture my beloved dog than to inflict the level of hate you are inflicting on this woman.

In my value system (and I know there are other and different value systems) the emotional feelings of people are more important than the lives and feelings of dogs.

And I _know_ that a lot of local people disagree with me.

Funny, in a sort of sick way :0)

[Malene]

I still see so much black and white thinking in this post.

As mentioned above it matters a great deal how far the pup is away from its wild ancestor. In bengal cats the cat is not seen as a domesticated cat until its 4th generation removed from its wild ancestor. I think it was mentioned above that wolf dog hybrids should be three generations removed from its wild ancestor.

This makes perfect sense - and will have a huge impact on the temperament of the dog. I know at 4 generations removed from its wild ancestor the bengal cat is a house cat with some peculiarities. Occassionally you will find a 4 - 6 generation bengal who is either a bit aggressive or shy. I always tend to think it is either because of its upbringing or irresponsible breeding - IE breeding for looks not character. Our boy is certainly not aggressive - quite on the contrary.

Yes - humans have trouble with their animal companions (and the animal companions have even more trouble with their human guardians).

This should not be the precursor to condemn a breed, and those breed it. Individuals who are not knowledgeable about their breed, its needs and who does not have the time / desire to put into their companion can be judged.

I never thought I would say this - truly I used to look at things the way you do - until I realized my one cat is a hybrid, and have had all this time to be amazed and thrilled by his personality. FYI - the hybrid is the gentlest of my cats, his nickname is Teddy Bear. The kids of this complex loves him, and often comes to our door asking if Niles can come out and play, and I am starting to groom him to become a hospital therapy cat.

Now - I truly believe that responsible hybrid breeders do breathe some new life into the species. It is very difficult to do though, and few breeders are responsible. I have no clue whether or not the original poster of this message is a responsible breeder, I cant know based on what I see here. So I will have to give her the benefit of the doubt.

Breeding hybrid dogs or cats is extremely expensive and I think that does justify the expense. The other reason I think its good to charge extra money for this kind of animal companion is that it is necessary to find guardians who has the time, money, desire and passion to spend on their new companion. While money doesnt guarantee this, it certainly makes it harder for everyone to get the dog and that can be a kind of safe guard as well.

While it is true that we have a horrific amount of unwanted companion animals in this country it doesnt seem fair to blame responsible breeders for this. They usually spend a great deal of time qualifying the guardians for their charges, and they certainly spend the money etc on making sure their animal companions are well cared for.

We should judge those that does the deed - IE those that in some way or another mistreats the animal. Then we - as a community - should devote whatever efforts we can to minimize the impact of irresponsible humans on our animal companions.

I will say again, as mentioned before, I have met several breeders who are very involved with animal rescue - just because they like me - cant help themselves.

So again - its not black and white - there are nuances and considerations to be taken into account.

Malene

I must say that this is not about ego/judgment or hate, all of which is stated in this post.

My intention in my post to the sale of wolf/hybrids, is about a species of animals that is being sold to the general public w/out the education behind it. As an animal behaviorist for 30+yrs, and seeing the problems people have w/ our typical domesticated dogs, w/ aggression, chewing, normal puppy stuff and then for whatever reason, they don't stay committed to their puppy, and it ends up in many homes, in a shelter, on the street, whatever..... The hybrid is a completely different animal, and should not be taken lightly or misrepresented as a great household pet dog. When I put the links to only 3 of many wolf and hybrid santuaries, I was hoping that people would educate themselves about this breed and see that this cute little puppy will grow up and be much more difficult to have as a household pet, thereby making a responsible decision and hopefully turn anyone else on, who is thinking about BUYING one of these wolfdogs, so that we can spread the word about responsible ownership.
We have domesticated these dogs, but instinct is instinct and if one doesn't completely understand the nature of a dog or the nature of a wolf, or the nature of a wolf/hybrid, then we are clearly in trouble. Look around folks, look how many shelters, animal sanctuaries, humane societies we have across the nation, and then choose what's best and most responsible when deciding on which breed to get or to rescue a dog.
This posting has brought up many very relevant issues, here, and this is always good. We are thinking, more clearly about the whole notion of dogs as pets, at ownership, at our responsibilities, at more sustainable choices we DO have, buying vs rescuing, about the nature of the beast, about educating ourselves on what a hybrid really is, and what are the pros and cons of owning a wolf/dog.

The Dali Lama, St Francis of Assissi, and more speak to kindness to all sentient beings, but do we have to quote one of these beings, to know what's right in our own hearts? I say, NO, WE KNOW! We know, not to eat too much to be healthy, we know not to be excessive in our daily lives, we know what's good for us, we know war is not the answer, we know, sex is not love, we know, but do we always follow our gut/instinct, do we always do what's right? NO!

In this light, we are all speaking our passion and we all have valid points, and the big picture here, is to be a conscious in our endeavors, conscious in our responsibility to ourselves, our neighbor, our animal kingdom, and our planet.

Is breeding and selling wolf/hybrids a sustainable, responsible and kind thing for us to be doing right here, right now, on this planet.

We have a recession going on, people are starving, homeless, being left behind, and the list goes on.

FOR SALE: WOLFDOGS: $2500, come and get em!

I think not.

~jill

[PeriodThree]

The wonderful thing about America is that within some general constraints you don't get to decide what other people do.

Freedom is a wonderful thing.

Judgmental activists, not so wonderful.

Is breeding and selling wolf/hybrids a sustainable, responsible and kind thing for us to be doing right here, right now, on this planet.

We have a recession going on, people are starving, homeless, being left behind, and the list goes on.

FOR SALE: WOLFDOGS: $2500, come and get em!

I think not.

~jill

[Malene]

SHEESH

Where is the kindness in that statement? We all owe activists a debt of gratitude, their tireless work on behalf of those who are not so strong has made this country a better place to be.

Judgmental activists, not so wonderful.

[llovejoy]

It is wrong to speak in a demeaning way to others.

Doing one of these wrongs does not make it ok for others to do another. IE - TWO WRONGS DOESN'T MAKE A RIGHT.

I just wanted to inject some old wisdom-humor here and remind you all the above is so, and...
THREE RIGHTS DO MAKE A LEFT.

[Moon]

I still see so much black and white thinking in this post.

I never thought I would say this - truly I used to look at things the way you do - until I realized my one cat is a hybrid, and have had all this time to be amazed and thrilled by his personality. FYI - the hybrid is the gentlest of my cats, his nickname is Teddy Bear. The kids of this complex loves him, and often comes to our door asking if Niles can come out and play, and I am starting to groom him to become a hospital therapy cat.
What kind of hybrid is your cat friend? House cat/bobcat? House cat/cerval? The discussion has been
about interspecies hybridization, and i think you're talking about different ancestries within a species.

Now - I truly believe that responsible hybrid breeders do breathe some new life into the species. It is very difficult to do though, and few breeders are responsible. I have no clue whether or not the original poster of this message is a responsible breeder, I cant know based on what I see here. So I will have to give her the benefit of the doubt.
Malene

Nevertheless, i stand by my original statement: "Dog lovers and cat lovers need to get together and
pick a tiny number of breeders to maintain each breed wisely." Also, propagating the idea that dogs
can be bought and sold implicitly bolsters the idea that they're property, and that's not good for them either.
The very few breeders who ought to be chosen to maintain certain breeds could ask adopters
for enough to enable them to break even, but i really wish they wouldn't advertise them as "for sale."
No one can own a person, human or non-. Abolish slavery in our lifetime!

[PeriodThree]

Nevertheless, i stand by my original statement: "Dog lovers and cat lovers need to get together and
pick a tiny number of breeders to maintain each breed wisely." Also, propagating the idea that dogs
can be bought and sold implicitly bolsters the idea that they're property, and that's not good for them either.
The very few breeders who ought to be chosen to maintain certain breeds could ask adopters
for enough to enable them to break even, but i really wish they wouldn't advertise them as "for sale."
No one can own a person, human or non-. Abolish slavery in our lifetime!

I disagree with every aspect of your world view expressed in this post.
I appreciate that we simply 'disagree' but so be it.

Frankly, I think that the ideas in your world view would, if enacted, make our world a far far worse place. 4

First, limiting who has the 'right' to breed animals is _to me_ a basic violation of our human rights and freedoms.

Second, I believe that animals are property.

Third, your idea that 'we' would 'let' breeders charge enough to break even implies a view of economic freedom (or the denial of same) which, to me, is disgusting.

And finally, animals are not people. Owning animals is not slavery.

Trying to make that moral equivalence that owning animals is akin to slavery, or akin to concentration camps, is an argument which I find deeply morally repugnant.

But then, I also don't agree with you views on 'womon,' But other than those points we agree on everything.

[Malene]

I agree with some of what you say here. Animal companions shouldnt be property. Yet - I am not sure how to make the laws different. We are still their guardians, and should be responsible for the animals we have.

I also would by far prefer that we managed to make it only responsible breeders that could breed companion animals. Responsible breeders would have to make a living just like the rest of us. Even if we dont consider the companion animals property the breeders still have to make a living.

As far as Niles - as you can read in a prior post I wrote about the controversies of breeding hybrids he is indeed a hybrid. The bengal breed started to be established about 20 years ago. It is a mix between a housecat and a Asian Leopard Cat. So there truly is wild ancestor(s) in his lineage not that far back. We believe he is a bengal / siamese mix. Most of the bengals out there right now are 4 - 7 generations removed from a wild ancestor. Cats prior to 3 - 5 generations removed from the wild ancestor produces sterile males. In order for a bengal to be considered a true bengal, and be acknowledged by whatever organizations it has to be at least 4 generations removed from the wild ancestor. Bengals less than 4 generations removed from the wild ancestor are not considered "pets". By 4th generation they breed bengal to bengal, so there is more than one wild ancestor around.

I wrote at length about it in a post below this one though so you can read it there.

Also - please note all my cats are rescues - and I participate extensively in fostering lost cats as well as feeding feral cats. Niles was a total fluke, and I did not know I had a hybrid on my hands until after we got him.

Malene

Nevertheless, i stand by my original statement: "Dog lovers and cat lovers need to get together and
pick a tiny number of breeders to maintain each breed wisely." Also, propagating the idea that dogs
can be bought and sold implicitly bolsters the idea that they're property, and that's not good for them either.
The very few breeders who ought to be chosen to maintain certain breeds could ask adopters
for enough to enable them to break even, but i really wish they wouldn't advertise them as "for sale."
No one can own a person, human or non-. Abolish slavery in our lifetime!

[Zeno Swijtink]

Reading thru this conversation I feel it lacks concreteness. It's too intellectuaal (sp??).

[Moon]

In my system of values the problem of one human, say Moon, or jillybean, dumping their load of judgment and shoulds and woulds and coulds on to another human, say this person who has puppies she wants to sell, is _far greater_ and _far worse_ than the problem which you identify of 'the US' euthanizing millions of dogs and cats every year.
I am open to change in my opinions, but at least right now, and from my perspective, what you (Moon) have done is to very explicitly accuse this person who loves dogs of being personally responsible for the 'millions of dogs' which some nebulous thing called 'the US' euthanizes each year.
From my deeply personal perspective, the people who have created this moral equivalence between what this person is doing by manifesting her love for these dogs and 'euthanizing millions of dogs' are intentionally inflicting the opposite of kindness on this woman who loves dogs.

I'm skeptical that anyone could really infer that from what i said, which was, to open with, that i believe
Malene when she says she really cares about the animals she breeds and the humans who adopt them. I
think she's trying to do something helpful for both dogs and humans and is mistaken in some of her methods.
She obviously can't be responsible for millions of euthanasias, since she's not breeding millions of dogs.

Trying to link what she is doing with killing millions of dogs is a cruel and nasty, and wrong thing for Moon and Jillybean to be doing.

I must say that this is not about ego/judgment or hate, all of which is stated in this post.
The hybrid is a completely different animal, and should not be taken lightly or misrepresented as a great household pet dog. When I put the links to only 3 of many wolf and hybrid sanctuaries, I was hoping that people would educate themselves about this breed and see that this cute little puppy will grow up and be much more difficult to have as a household pet, thereby making a responsible decision and hopefully turn anyone else on, who is thinking about BUYING one of these wolfdogs, so that we can spread the word about responsible ownership.
The Dali Lama, St Francis of Assisi, and more speak to kindness to all sentient beings, but do we have to quote one of these beings, to know what's right in our own hearts? I say, NO, WE KNOW! We know, not to eat too much to be healthy, we know not to be excessive in our daily lives, we know what's good for us, we know war is not the answer, we know, sex is not love, we know, but do we always follow our gut/instinct, do we always do what's right? NO!
Is breeding and selling wolf/hybrids a sustainable, responsible and kind thing for us to be doing right here, right now, on this planet.
FOR SALE: WOLFDOGS: $2500, come and get em!
I think not.
~jill

[Lenny]

And who gave you permission to use a picture of me?

Reading thru this conversation I feel it lacks concreteness. It's too intellectuaal (sp??).

[Malene]

Holy Crap what a distortion!!!!!

Please, please read over the thread, and another related post I made about the controversies of hybrid dogs and cats.

I do not breed any animals. I am involved with rescue work of cats. I happen to have a part bengal cat in my house. The bengal cats are hybrids and so I have been speaking out on behalf of the breed.

There is nothing in anything I have written that should make you think that I breed, or condone breeding by anyone but the most ethical of breeders.

It makes me very uncomfortable to see my words so distorted. In fact - it is time I bow out of this conversation. This reminds me once again how easy it is online to see what you say distorted and turned into something its not. Please pay attention to the threads and the conversations when you respond.

Malene

I'm skeptical that anyone could really infer that from what i said, which was, to open with, that i believe
Malene when she says she really cares about the animals she breeds and the humans who adopt them. I
think she's trying to do something helpful for both dogs and humans and is mistaken in some of her methods.
She obviously can't be responsible for millions of euthanasias, since she's not breeding millions of dogs.

[Moon]

Blue: Moon

I agree with some of what you say here. Animal companions shouldn't be property. Yet - I am not sure how to make the laws different. We are still their guardians, and should be responsible for the animals we have.

In concrete, practical terms, one thing i'd like to see is for the kidnapping of a non-human
animal to be acknowledged as a kidnapping and not brushed off as (petty!) "theft," so
that police can get a search warrant and find the kidnapped animal in the kidnapper's house.

I also would by far prefer that we managed to make it only responsible breeders that could breed companion animals.

We're moving toward that here in California, with the requirement that all cats and dogs
be neutered by a certain age, unless the human in the household qualifies for a special
permit; i think even that still leaves too many people breeding dogs and cats, though.

Responsible breeders would have to make a living just like the rest of us. Even if we don't consider the companion animals property the breeders still have to make a living.

True; that's why i say they could ask for enough money to make it possible for them
to do that work, which is different from "selling" the animals or calling oneself their "owner."

As far as Niles - as you can read in a prior post I wrote about the controversies of breeding hybrids he is indeed a hybrid. The bengal breed started to be established about 20 years ago. It is a mix between a housecat and a Asian Leopard Cat. So there truly is wild ancestor(s) in his lineage not that far back. We believe he is a bengal / siamese mix. Most of the bengals out there right now are 4 - 7 generations removed from a wild ancestor. Cats prior to 3 - 5 generations removed from the wild ancestor produces sterile males. In order for a bengal to be considered a true bengal, and be acknowledged by whatever organizations it has to be at least 4 generations removed from the wild ancestor. Bengals less than 4 generations removed from the wild ancestor are not considered "pets". By 4th generation they breed bengal to bengal, so there is more than one wild ancestor around.

Wow! I've seen some pictures of those cats, and they're gorgeous
--even for cats! How's their temperament?

I wrote at length about it in a post below this one though so you can read it there.

Also - please note all my cats are rescues - and I participate extensively in fostering lost cats as well as feeding feral cats.

That's really great; good for you. Have the ferals been trapped and neutered?
If not, i have a lot of experience with animal rescue and would be willing to help.

Niles was a total fluke, and I did not know I had a hybrid on my hands until after we got him.

Malene

[pzZAZzy]

...it is not surprising to me to hear that wolf dogs have to go through some generations before they are completely tameable. Bengal cats are not considered pets until they reach their 4th generation.

Malene

I had a gorgeous, loving, gentle, white, F1 wolf-dog, Leila, for 13 years. She was born in a wolf den in Montana. Her mother was a pure, wild, grey wolf. Leila was so trustworthy that once, while hiking, we came across a wild fox and I just whispered "sit" which she immediately did. The fox then sat, too, only about 15' away from us. We three just looked curiously at each other for what seemed like at least five minutes. Then the fox casually got up and walked away, and so did we. We had similar encounters with wild deer. I could absolutely trust Leila with babies, chickens, anything. I believe, from her looks, that her father was a Samoyed. I do believe that the other half of the hybrid is significant. Samoyeds are gentle by nature. Breeding with headstrong Akitas, Malamutes, or inbred German Shepherds, might produce very different results.

[scatalano79]

I would like to go hypothetical here, as I am not sure of the laws on having a wolf half breed canine...

So let's say I have this beautiful cross breed... sit down first... Wolf and Chihuahua. She would be the most beautiful, intelligent canine I have ever encountered. She would be protective of me (not viciously) and have no problems with our cats or our 150lb dummy dog. She will have never attached anyone, ever, though she could have a past problem with birds. Her previous family might have trained her to hunt and kill chickens due to an over population from the neighbors. Everyone would might meet her would instantly fall in love, and be mesmerized by her. I would be able to take her to work with me on occasion, with no problems, and I would in retail. I would have no problems with her, other then she is too smart for her own good sometimes... I would not be able to stop talking about how wonderful she is! There is more, but I am sure you are getting the point.

This is what she could look like:
https://s156.photobucket.com/albums/t21/scatalano79/Shasta/

I feel that it judging her because of her bloodlines would be like judge a rottie or a boxer as vicious attack dogs, without having meet or known the dog. A breed might have drawbacks, but not all of the breed will have the same characteristics. This is why you can have a huge rottie be the biggest love you have ever seen, or a pug be a mean, attacking dog.

In Summary:
Don't judge a book by its cover, no matter what the subject is!!

[Anagon]

I understand exactly what you're saying. While some breeds may be predisposed to have certain characteristics, I believe the environment in which they are raised and the quality of love and attention they receive makes much more of a difference! By the way your hybrid is beautiful! Also I have 2 females left... they are about 81/2 weeks old and cute as ever. If anyone is interested feel free to reply to me privately. If money is an issue I'm willing to work with someone if they have the right living/job situation and the right heart etc.

I would like to go hypothetical here, as I am not sure of the laws on having a wolf half breed canine...

So let's say I have this beautiful cross breed... sit down first... Wolf and Chihuahua. She would be the most beautiful, intelligent canine I have ever encountered. She would be protective of me (not viciously) and have no problems with our cats or our 150lb dummy dog. She will have never attached anyone, ever, though she could have a past problem with birds. Her previous family might have trained her to hunt and kill chickens due to an over population from the neighbors. Everyone would might meet her would instantly fall in love, and be mesmerized by her. I would be able to take her to work with me on occasion, with no problems, and I would in retail. I would have no problems with her, other then she is too smart for her own good sometimes... I would not be able to stop talking about how wonderful she is! There is more, but I am sure you are getting the point.

This is what she could look like:
https://s156.photobucket.com/albums/t21/scatalano79/Shasta/

I feel that it judging her because of her bloodlines would be like judge a rottie or a boxer as vicious attack dogs, without having meet or known the dog. A breed might have drawbacks, but not all of the breed will have the same characteristics. This is why you can have a huge rottie be the biggest love you have ever seen, or a pug be a mean, attacking dog.

In Summary:
Don't judge a book by its cover, no matter what the subject is!!

[Veeja]

WOW! I'm still stuck here. Please! inflict all the hate you want toward me if it will save torturing animal or humane. I'm not trying to be mean. But I hope you don't have a dog. No one will ever torture my animal for no reason. Words are just that!

I _know_ I am a freak and all, but I would rather have you torture my beloved dog than to inflict the level of hate you are inflicting on this woman.

I'm going to go ahead and express my basic and speciistic biases here. i think there this discussion boils down to a difference in core values. Some people have decided, to quote Jeremy Rifkin, that "a rat is a pig is a boy is a dog").

These people have created an explicit moral equivalence between rats and pits and people. In this system of values, mistreating a rat is morally equivalent to mistreating a person.

In my system of values the problem of one human, say Moon, or jillybean, dumping their load of judgment and shoulds and woulds and coulds on to another human, say this person who has puppies she wants to sell, is _far greater_ and _far worse_ than the problem which you identify of 'the US' euthanizing millions of dogs and cats every year.

The 14th (and current) Dalai Lama has been quoted as saying "My religion is very simple. My religion is kindness."

I am open to change in my opinions, but at least right now, and from my perspective, what you (Moon) have done is to very explicitly accuse this person who loves dogs of being personally responsible for the 'millions of dogs' which some nebulous thing called 'the US' euthanizes each year.

From my deeply personal perspective, the people who have created this moral equivalence between what this person is doing by manifesting her love for these dogs and 'euthanizing millions of dogs' are intentionally inflicting the opposite of kindness on this woman who loves dogs.

I can sort of see the roots of your argument, but I have to come out swinging on the other side.

Trying to link what she is doing with killing millions of dogs is a cruel and nasty, and wrong thing for Moon and Jillybean to be doing.



In my value system (and I know there are other and different value systems) the emotional feelings of people are more important than the lives and feelings of dogs.

And I _know_ that a lot of local people disagree with me.

Funny, in a sort of sick way :0)