Be counted for humane tolerance

[Peace Seeker]

Updated introduction - May 21, 2008:

Dear friends and neighbors,

I am interested in an ongoing discussion with concerned, humanitarian members of our local Sonoma County community, about the nature and causes of prejudice, about remedies for prejudice, and about specific actions people are taking to remedy prejudice.

I plan to pursue this topical discussion of prejudice and its remedies, independently of discussions people conduct about other topics, on this thread.

If you would like to join this discussion about prejudice and its remedies, I invite you to respond here, or in direct correspondence with me at the following eMail address:

Al Salaam Alaykum, Shalom, Namaste, Peace

David L. Hoffman, Coordinator
Humanity Check
Interfaith Peace and Reconciliation Project
PMB 560, 122 Calistoga Road
Santa Rosa, CA 95409
USA
[email protected]

(added, May 21, 2008)

_____________________________________________________

FIRST POST to THREAD -- April 28, 2008:

I just found a great on-line project, set up by the Southern Poverty Law Center called "Stand Strong Against Hate".

You can include yourself on an online map of people in the U.S. standing against prejudice.

Go to https://www.splcenter.org/center/petitions/standstrong/

Enter your name, eMail address and Zip Code (this is kept confidential).

As people sign up, a map of the US gets shaded - by county -- into deeper and deeper shades of green (by "density" of supporters). This green overlay is placed over a U.S. map that already has red dots for the HQs of known US hate groups.

It's a relief to see the two displays combined, and be reminded that for each of these hate groups there are hundreds of determined people of good will going on record to stand for humane values.

I just entered my name. I immediately got this great (automated) response:

Thank you for standing strong against hate, David.

Standing strong with you are:

80 of your neighbors in SONOMA County

2073 fellow residents of CALIFORNIA.

Good News indeed!

If everyone on WaccoBB who shares Southern Poverty Law Center's vision of a humane, tolerant nationa signed in, we'd REALLY see a high number for Sonoma County!

David Hoffman

____________________________

Continuing the
Stand Strong Against Hate
Campaign

I encourage more readers to sign onto the Southern Poverty Law Center's (SPLC) Web Page, mapping people in the U.S. who Stand Strong Against Hate.


Here's the procedure:

2. Go to the campaign Web page: https://www.splcenter.org/center/petitions/standstrong/
3. Enter your name, eMail address and Zip Code (this is kept confidential).
4. As people sign, a map of the US gets shaded - by county -- into deeper and deeper shades of green (by "density" of supporters). This green overlay is placed over a U.S. map that already has red dots for the Headquarters of known US hate groups (as identified by SPLC).
5. You will get an automated reply, updating the number of campaign supporters who've signed from Sonoma County, and from California. Please cut and paste this updated report to us, in a message to this thread.

We first joined this campaign and started publicizing here and elsewhere in Sonoma County on April 28, 2008. There were already 80 Sonoma County signers. 5 days later there were 95 signers.

In other words, the results of our publicizing the Stand Strong Against Hate campaign on April 28, 2008 were:

The number of Sonoma County signers increased by about 20% within five days, from 80 to 95.

It's not certain whether all or only some of those 15 people signed on because of this initiative. I suspect that's true for most of them. I know people forwarded the information on - both within Sonoma County and elsewhere in the US, including posting to several other Listserves.

[Reportanddeport]

I DO stand strong against hate. That's why I stand strong against the Southern Perverty Law Center and their lies about pro-American and pro-law and order groups, like the Minutemen Civil Defense Corps and Save Our State. The SPLC is a communist and globalist front group, just like the ACLU. The SPLC has a massive enemies list, which they label as "hate groups". Some are legitimate hate groups, but most of them aren't.

The Globalists and Communists are working together, and the SPLC is part of that collaboration.

Whyyy will the FMLN be marching in Thursday's commie parade in Santa Rosa? Because they share common interests with the agri-business exploiters of illegal aliens. They are technically polar opposites, but they work together because the business and the commie side both benefit from illegal immigration. Politics makes strange bedfellows.

I just found a great on-line project, set up by the Southern Poverty Law Center called "Stand Strong Against Hate".

You can include yourself on an online map of people in the U.S. standing against prejudice.

Go to https://www.splcenter.org/center/petitions/standstrong/

Enter your name, eMail address and Zip Code (this is kept confidential).

As people sign up, a map of the US gets shaded - by county -- into deeper and deeper shades of green (by "density" of supporters). This green overlay is placed over a U.S. map that already has red dots for the HQs of known US hate groups.

It's a relief to see the two displays combined, and be reminded that for each of these hate groups there are hundreds of determined people of good will going on record to stand for humane values.

I just entered my name. I immediately got this great (automated) response:

Thank you for standing strong against hate, David.

Standing strong with you are:

80 of your neighbors in SONOMA County

2073 fellow residents of CALIFORNIA.

Good News indeed!

Of everyone on WaccoBB who shares Southern Poverty Law Center's vision of a humane, tolerant nationa signed in, we'd REALLY see a high number for Sonoma County!

David

[handy]

Democracy deserves what it tolerates.

Tolerance is a function of perceived superiority.
Distasteful at best...

[Reportanddeport]

The killer had been convicted of driving while intoxicated and received deferred adjudication (charges were dismissed) for indecency with a child before he was deported in 1999. Then, he sneaked back into America, and after being arrested for speeding and driving without a license, pulled out a hidden gun and yelled racist “epithets” as he put four bullets into the back of the head of the African-American, Police Officer. Defense attorney Danalynn Recer said a childhood head injury caused Quintero anxiety attacks and staring spells for most of his life. She said Quintero began drinking alcohol when he was 8 and used alcohol to medicate himself. NOW, ALL GOOD LIBERALS CAN CRY FOR THE KILLER AND MAKE EXCUSES FOR THIS MURDER. WHERE is the Southern Poverty Law Center and the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People, organizations ALLEGEDLY opposed to racism, now that an African-American has been murdered in a “Hate Crime” committed by an illegal alien?
WWW.CHRON.COM THE TRIAL OF JUAN LEONARDO QUINTERO

[Peace Seeker]

Dear Handy,

You wrote:

Democracy deserves what it tolerates.

Tolerance is a function of perceived superiority.
Distasteful at best...[/quote]

==============================

I understand the reasoning of your statement.

Here's how I see the reality of this question:

There is a false form of tolerance, where people see themselves as superior to others, who they condescendingly "tolerate".

True tolerance is respectful, appreciative coexistence with people who you perceive as dramatically different from yourself. I believe that's the meaning most people in our culture give to the word. Not superiority, or "barely tolerating" someone you secretly disrespect.

It's true -- as I think you're implying -- that some people imagine they are superior to others, based on perceived "greater tolerance". That's something we need to remember and check ourselves for.

I'd rather see people striving to be more tolerant, than have people give up for some reason, and not strive to be more tolerant.

But regardless of whether or not readers think tolerance entails some form of covert arrogance, I believe most WaccoBB readers support the values of intercommunal good will and peaceable coexistence. So I hope people will sign onto the Southern Poverty Law Center's Web page and Stand Strong Against Hate:

https://www.splcenter.org/center/petitions/standstrong/


David

[Braggi]

Standing strong with you are:
87 of your neighbors in SONOMA County
2116 fellow residents of CALIFORNIA.

-Jeff

...
But regardless of whether or not readers think tolerance entails some form of covert arrogance, I believe most WaccoBB readers support the values of intercommunal good will and peaceable coexistence. So I hope people will sign onto the Southern Poverty Law Center's Web page and Stand Strong Against Hate:

https://www.splcenter.org/center/petitions/standstrong/


David

[Zeno Swijtink]

Make that 88, and 2117.

Would be interesting to know the contrary map, of those who are not standing strong ...

Standing strong with you are:
87 of your neighbors in SONOMA County
2116 fellow residents of CALIFORNIA.

-Jeff

[Valley Oak]

This is what I read after I signed on against hate:

Standing strong with you are:
89 of your neighbors in SONOMA County
2120 fellow residents of CALIFORNIA.

And here is the email I received immediately afterwards:

Edward, thank you, again, for standing strong against hate by adding yourself to our map as a voice for tolerance. People of goodwill can make a difference in the fight to expose organized racism and hate in our country. Remember to be an advocate for justice and speak out against hate wherever and whenever you see it.

Tell your friends to stand strong against hate:
https://www.StandStrongAgainstHate.org

Learn about hate groups in your area on our Hate Map:
https://www.splcenter.org/intel/map/hate.jsp

Learn to respond to everyday bigotry and speak out against hate through our Speak Up! and 10 Ways to Fight Hate publications.
https://www.tolerance.org/speakup/index.html
https://www.tolerance.org/10_ways/index.html

Donate to the Southern Poverty Law Center and support our work for justice and tolerance.
https://secure.splcenter.org/donate/online/online.jsp

You can contact the Southern Poverty Law Center online:
https://www.splcenter.org/center/contact.jsp

Southern Poverty Law Center
400 Washington Ave.
Montgomery, AL 36104
334.956.8200
https://www.splcenter.org

Sure feels good!

Edward

Make that 88, and 2117.

Would be interesting to know the contrary map, of those who are not standing strong ...

[Reportanddeport]

The killer had been convicted of driving while intoxicated and received deferred adjudication (charges were dismissed) for indecency with a child before he was deported in 1999. Then, he sneaked back into America, and after being arrested for speeding and driving without a license, pulled out a hidden gun and yelled racist “epithets” as he put four bullets into the back of the head of the African-American, Police Officer. Defense attorney Danalynn Recer said a childhood head injury caused Quintero anxiety attacks and staring spells for most of his life. She said Quintero began drinking alcohol when he was 8 and used alcohol to medicate himself. NOW, ALL GOOD LIBERALS CAN CRY FOR THE KILLER AND MAKE EXCUSES FOR THIS MURDER. WHERE is the Southern Poverty Law Center and the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People, organizations ALLEGEDLY opposed to racism, now that an African-American has been murdered in a “Hate Crime” committed by an illegal alien?
WWW.CHRON.COM THE TRIAL OF JUAN LEONARDO QUINTERO

[Melodymama]

Valley Oak wrote:This is what I read after I signed on against hate:

Standing strong with you are:
89 of your neighbors in SONOMA County
2120 fellow residents of CALIFORNIA.

And here is the email I received immediately afterwards:

Edward, thank you, again, for standing strong against hate by adding yourself to our map as a voice for tolerance. People of goodwill can make a difference in the fight to expose organized racism and hate in our country. Remember to be an advocate for justice and speak out against hate wherever and whenever you see it.

and now it is 90 from Sonoma County and 2121 from California.
Thanks for the referral. It is a daily journey to ask myself why I dismiss someone or find myself in judgement when my intention is to respect and find value. Old habits die hard, and yet this is such an important shift for self, for our community and the world. It feels good to be moving on the path in concert with other lovely humaniods. Laura

[Melodymama]

Reportanddeport wrote: The killer had been convicted ......

It is amazing to me that you are still hammering on and on with this redundant message. You have stated your case. It seems that you have only one message (your moniker) and yet you have to restate it daily. Thank you, it has been heard. I am trying hard to respect you and your right to express. Thank you for giving me this challenge. I do not understand what your goal is here and how you will ever know if you are attaining it. Therefore, I suppose we will continue to see your posts about the same issues with the same attitude. I wonder if you are clear on what your goal is. There is no need to reply.

[Reportanddeport]

No redundancy here, this was a new post, and it was relevant. In a thread promoting the SPLC, I presented the case of an African-American murdered by an illegal alien and that I did not receive any word of this from the SPLC. Maybe if you know the SPLC better than I do, then you can show me the URL where the SPLC condemned this murder.

The SPLC is a Globalist/Communist front group. They are NOT a civil rights organization. Whyyyyyy do "Progressives" support the very front groups that give cover to Corporatism?

Remember when Libs used to be OPPOSED to corporatism? WHAT HAPPENED to that movement?

WHERE WAS YOUR SPLC when this Black man was gunned down?

My "goal" is to support the U.S.A., not undercut it.

My "attitude" is that garbage is garbage and that it should be confronted in a firm and responsible way.

Reportanddeport wrote: The killer had been convicted ......

It is amazing to me that you are still hammering on and on with this redundant message. You have stated your case. It seems that you have only one message (your moniker) and yet you have to restate it daily. Thank you, it has been heard. I am trying hard to respect you and your right to express. Thank you for giving me this challenge. I do not understand what your goal is here and how you will ever know if you are attaining it. Therefore, I suppose we will continue to see your posts about the same issues with the same attitude. I wonder if you are clear on what your goal is. There is no need to reply.

[babaruss]

I DO stand strong against hate. That's why I stand strong against the Southern Perverty Law Center and their lies about pro-American and pro-law and order groups, like the Minutemen Civil Defense Corps and Save Our State. The SPLC is a communist and globalist front group, just like the ACLU. The SPLC has a massive enemies list, which they label as "hate groups". Some are legitimate hate groups, but most of them aren't.

The Globalists and Communists are working together, and the SPLC is part of that collaboration.

Whyyy will the FMLN be marching in Thursday's commie parade in Santa Rosa? Because they share common interests with the agri-business exploiters of illegal aliens. They are technically polar opposites, but they work together because the business and the commie side both benefit from illegal immigration. Politics makes strange bedfellows.

I'm not the brightest bulb in the house, but it seems to me that Report and Deport is really blind to his own bigotry.
Communists under every bush (leading every demonstration ?) wow...scary stuff. Whatever shall we do !! Run the sky is falling !!
What was wrong with someone being a Communist ?
This is America isn't it. We are all supposed to have the freedom to believe what we want...right ?
And no.... Communism doesn't appeal to me.
Neither does bigotry...the deal is that I can only successfully fight bigotry within myself.
I try not to get insane about those who don't, or won't take up that challenge.
That doesn't mean that I haven't tried to fight bigotry, and racism, first hand via politically motivated organizations.
Got by self pretty badly pummeled a few times in Mississippi and Alabama
in early 60's while making a show of support for equal rights, voting rights etc.
I didn't think a whole hell of a lot of the leadership of the organizations I was part of during that time. Who they were was not as import to me as what the particular goal was.
Sometime later I decided to do the same thing with Gay and Lesbian rights.
Lots of what can be called my 'bleeding heart liberalism' will be assumed regarding involvement with such causes, but that really was not the case.
As I learned new information about diverse people (which means I got out of my tiny little world, and into the larger world) I felt the need to lend what little support I could offer, which was mostly walking picket lines, participating in demonstrations etc.
It was never important to me that there might be Communists lurking in the shadows. What was import was for me to get my head out of my butt and do something !
I was amazed to realize how long I had been wandering about in my own personal bubble before I began notice such things as racial hatred, and other forms of bigotry were there.

I've tried a couple times to become involved in online communication here at WaccoBB and dropped out almost as quickly because of what I percieved to be zenophobia and racial hatred coming from people like Report and Deport ...who seems to be obsessed with murder, rape, and crimes committed by people in this country illegally... primarily Mexicans.
What a narrow little point of focus this is.
Crime is crime where ever it is....and crimes committed by illegals is just a drop in the bucket compared to all the other crimes committed in this nation.
I was ready for one hell of a rant, when it suddenly came to me that I was predjudiced and outright bigoted againt his prespective.
I still am...just wanted acknowledge that fact before I try to find a way to include people like him into my world.. a world of people to understand, tolerate, and accept. After all this is America (warts and all) and we are all entitled to our points of view.
Someone once said to me that "love was total acceptance of each person's
unique means of expressing his evoluting presence"
Guess I've got a way to go for that to happen.
Still I never hurts to take ownership for my deficiencies.
Once I can accept that I am off in my thinking, and actions, I can then seek out ways to get back on track.
Way too much rattling on here...another failing I'll have to find a solution to.
I wanted to try one more time to participate in these forums before decided to hang it up and go back to minding my own business.
Russ

[Peace Seeker]

Dear Russ,

Thank you for these righteous and truthful words:

I can only successfully fight bigotry within myself.

I try not to get insane about those who don't, or won't take up that challenge.

[ ... ]

I[t] never hurts to take ownership for my deficiencies.
Once I can accept that I am off in my thinking, and actions, I can then seek out ways to get back on track.

You closed by saying:

"I wanted to try one more time to participate in these forums before decided to hang it up and go back to minding my own business."

I can understand your frustration Russ. I've had many similar experiences with on-line discussions.

Maybe we can make this one better -- at least this thread. To do that, we will need everyone who can to bring her/his best self forward. I see that happening already on this thread, so I'm hopeful it can dontinue.


Here's my proposal to any interested readers:

=============================


Dear friends,

I would like to see two things happen on this thread, one of which Russ and several other thoughtful souls have done -- which is to wrestle more deeply with how we can remedy prejudice.

Discuss:

• How can we better see and rein in our own reactive, stereotyping impulses?
• How can we react beneficially to others, when we believe they are speaking or acting with prejudice?
• What (if anything) can we do to ensure that others in our community aren't victimized by prejudice, or seduced into it (especially kids and teens)?

The other thing I hope continues via this thread is that more readers sign onto SPLC's Stand Strong Against Hate Web page, and update us with the new figures for Sonoma County and California.

I definitely DON'T want people to flame at each other about immigrants or Communists or the Minute Men or anyone else -- no matter how awful, or wrong-headed or dangerous you think they are.

In my case I am an Evangelical Christian, and a democratic, nonviolent, non-Machiavellian Marxist. Many inaccurate, harmful mis-perceptions about Marxism are prevalent in our political culture -- even among humanitarian progressive activists; certainly in mainstream US political discourse; and of course in hard right discourse. Some of these are simplistic, hostile sound-bites, demonizing Marxism with curses and insults, or by listing abuses which occurred in the USSR, or during Mao Tse Tung's Cultural Revolution, or in other flawed and tragic attempts to implement and enforce Marxist utopian visions. Others are more elaborate theoretical attacks, raised not in sincere truth-seeking but to poison intellectuals' minds against any form of Marxist thought, and thereby keep Marxist theory out of US mainstream politics. This makes it very difficult for principled, humanitarian Marxists to be heard in any way. For this reason, I would like to ask R&D to refrain from using words like "Commie" -- words which hurl simplistic, inaccurate and slanderous abuse at me and at many other principled activists.

Similar selective condemnation gets misused against Christianity (using horror stories from the Spanish Inquisition; religious rationalizations for chattel slavery and the extermination of North American aborigines; violent and preposterous ravings by contemporary hardline televangelists ...).

We need to separate our indictments of abuses perpetrated in the names of idealisms, from the positive, worthy passions which are present in those idealisms.

And on the other hand, we each need to be more candid and critical about the pitfalls and abuses of our own ideologies, and more appreciative of the good which others' ideologies offer to Humanity.

Self-styled progressives undermine the legitimacy of our own outrage, that R&D doesn't extend respect and thoughtful consideration to our values and passions, unless we extend comparable respect and thoughtful consideration to R&D and his ultimate values. I do see R&D's statements and actions as objectionable and wrong-headed. But I also believe that in his view, he is trying to safeguard things that are precious to him, which he believes are imperilled. I don't believe he accurately grasps the nature and implications of immigration, or the implications of his statements, actions and proposals. But that is not an excuse to demonize him.

I don't know whether we can establish this kind of respectful dialogue on this thread. If we do, I don't know who will participate constructively and who will mock and disrupt it. I recommend that if someone baits others, or vents rage or disrespect toward others, that the rest of us refrain from taking that bait, or fueling that rage, with reactive sarcasm or rage of our own. We can have a constructive discussion regardless of whether everyone who posts is participating in it constructively. It may take restraint and focus, but we can do it.

So I invite people to continue this conversation here -- or to eMail me privately -- about how to remedy prejudice. We can share our successes, frustrations and thoughts about efforts to remedy prejudice.


Two further thoughts:

1. There is a mature, beneficial use of anger: Channel it into calm determination.
2. True revolution mobilizes people against harmful situations. Not people against other people.

David Hoffman

[Reportanddeport]

Anti-Americanism is bigotry. Communism is bigotry against successful people and free people and private people. Just about anything a person is against can be construed as bigotry. I am definitely bigoted against illegal immigration and illegal immigrants. I am firmly against them and there's NOTHING WRONG with that.

I'm not the brightest bulb in the house, but it seems to me that Report and Deport is really blind to his own bigotry.
Communists under every bush (leading every demonstration ?) wow...scary stuff. Whatever shall we do !! Run the sky is falling !!
What was wrong with someone being a Communist ?
This is America isn't it. We are all supposed to have the freedom to believe what we want...right ?
And no.... Communism doesn't appeal to me.
Neither does bigotry...the deal is that I can only successfully fight bigotry within myself.
I try not to get insane about those who don't, or won't take up that challenge.
That doesn't mean that I haven't tried to fight bigotry, and racism, first hand via politically motivated organizations.
Got by self pretty badly pummeled a few times in Mississippi and Alabama
in early 60's while making a show of support for equal rights, voting rights etc.
I didn't think a whole hell of a lot of the leadership of the organizations I was part of during that time. Who they were was not as import to me as what the particular goal was.
Sometime later I decided to do the same thing with Gay and Lesbian rights.
Lots of what can be called my 'bleeding heart liberalism' will be assumed regarding involvement with such causes, but that really was not the case.
As I learned new information about diverse people (which means I got out of my tiny little world, and into the larger world) I felt the need to lend what little support I could offer, which was mostly walking picket lines, participating in demonstrations etc.
It was never important to me that there might be Communists lurking in the shadows. What was import was for me to get my head out of my butt and do something !
I was amazed to realize how long I had been wandering about in my own personal bubble before I began notice such things as racial hatred, and other forms of bigotry were there.

I've tried a couple times to become involved in online communication here at WaccoBB and dropped out almost as quickly because of what I percieved to be zenophobia and racial hatred coming from people like Report and Deport ...who seems to be obsessed with murder, rape, and crimes committed by people in this country illegally... primarily Mexicans.
What a narrow little point of focus this is.
Crime is crime where ever it is....and crimes committed by illegals is just a drop in the bucket compared to all the other crimes committed in this nation.
I was ready for one hell of a rant, when it suddenly came to me that I was predjudiced and outright bigoted againt his prespective.
I still am...just wanted acknowledge that fact before I try to find a way to include people like him into my world.. a world of people to understand, tolerate, and accept. After all this is America (warts and all) and we are all entitled to our points of view.
Someone once said to me that "love was total acceptance of each person's
unique means of expressing his evoluting presence"
Guess I've got a way to go for that to happen.
Still I never hurts to take ownership for my deficiencies.
Once I can accept that I am off in my thinking, and actions, I can then seek out ways to get back on track.
Way too much rattling on here...another failing I'll have to find a solution to.
I wanted to try one more time to participate in these forums before decided to hang it up and go back to minding my own business.
Russ

[Zeno Swijtink]

(...) I am definitely bigoted against illegal immigration and illegal immigrants. I am firmly against them and there's NOTHING WRONG with that.

It's not ALL wrong but there is SOMETHING wrong with that.

You're missing the details of their life story, how they, like you, try to build a happy life, try to do something that makes them recognized, just like you.

[santarosie]

All humans should be given an opportunity to be heard and appreciated for who and what they are, no matter how different from you they look, sound, or act. Relating to people from all different walks of life is mind and heart expanding, and can help bring your personal experience into a healthy perspective. I'd like to take tolerance a step further to appreciation. The more we practice this, the better our chances for cooperative survival.

Currently Standing strong with you are:
95 of your neighbors in SONOMA County
2142 fellow residents of CALIFORNIA.

THANKS!
-Jill

and now it is 90 from Sonoma County and 2121 from California.
Thanks for the referral. It is a daily journey to ask myself why I dismiss someone or find myself in judgement when my intention is to respect and find value. Old habits die hard, and yet this is such an important shift for self, for our community and the world. It feels good to be moving on the path in concert with other lovely humaniods. Laura

[MsTerry]

Most of these immigrants (95%) are staunch followers and supporters of Jesus Christ. In fact they have prayed to God for guidance and assistance to support their families. Their answer came in the form of a journey to 'El Norte'.
Since Christianity is such a strong force in their life, and Jesus himself was a lawbreaker, I think you would be better of eradicating Christianity if you want to fulfill your line of thinking. It would take away their motivation to come here.

Anti-Americanism is bigotry. Communism is bigotry against successful people and free people and private people. Just about anything a person is against can be construed as bigotry. I am definitely bigoted against illegal immigration and illegal immigrants. I am firmly against them and there's NOTHING WRONG with that.

[Valley Oak]

Astute observation.

If we apply the same principal in Ms Terry's observation to the political realm, a surprisingly significant number of once Mexican citizens who are now U.S. citizens, vote for the Republican Party and are ultra patriotic and right wing across the board; they are both fiscally and socially conservative. Although this is certainly not true of all or even most nationalized aliens of Mexican origin, it is highly unlikely that Schwarzneggar would have ever been elected if 100% of the Hispanic electorate had voted as a solid bloc for Bustamante or Davis back in the day.

Edward

Most of these immigrants (95%) are staunch followers and supporters of Jesus Christ. In fact they have prayed to God for guidance and assistance to support their families. Their answer came in the form of a journey to 'El Norte'.
Since Christianity is such a strong force in their life, and Jesus himself was a lawbreaker, I think you would be better of eradicating Christianity if you want to fulfill your line of thinking. It would take away their motivation to come here.

[Reportanddeport]

I am concerned about the lives and details of AMERICANS in AMERICA and of those immigrants who were decent enough to obey our laws. I see value in protecting the ground where my roots are planted. But I can't comprehend how throwing away nor making vulnerable that which is mine nor that which I share with others is in my best interest. I will not and can not carry the entire weight of the world. I have my own life to live and it is not enriched by boohooing for foreigners nor by picking the pockets of those who were more successful than me.

It's not ALL wrong but there is SOMETHING wrong with that.

You're missing the details of their life story, how they, like you, try to build a happy life, try to do something that makes them recognized, just like you.

[Reportanddeport]

I think that your habit of being persistently contrarian is merely to cover the fact that you don't understand many issues. Perhaps if you learned extensively about a particular subject, and stayed primarily on that subject, then you could speak authoritatively on something and not feel perpetually compelled to automatically disagree and/or to disagree in a nonsensical manner.

I do feel that though darkness can suck the light away, it is still less valuable and powerful than the light itself.

Most of these immigrants (95%) are staunch followers and supporters of Jesus Christ. In fact they have prayed to God for guidance and assistance to support their families. Their answer came in the form of a journey to 'El Norte'.
Since Christianity is such a strong force in their life, and Jesus himself was a lawbreaker, I think you would be better of eradicating Christianity if you want to fulfill your line of thinking. It would take away their motivation to come here.

[Zeno Swijtink]

I am concerned about the lives and details of AMERICANS in AMERICA and of those immigrants who were decent enough to obey our laws. I see value in protecting the ground where my roots are planted. But I can't comprehend how throwing away nor making vulnerable that which is mine nor that which I share with others is in my best interest. I will not and can not carry the entire weight of the world. I have my own life to live and it is not enriched by boohooing for foreigners nor by picking the pockets of those who were more successful than me.

It is likely that one of your forefathers came here illegally, or did not completely follow the law in other ways. Your wife's forefathers may have settled somewhere illegally, or the offspring of your offspring may marry into lineages of people you presently wish to report and deport.

Offspring of forefathers of the people you presently wish to eject were likely living in these lands you call your America and may have been killed in the battles that your forefathers fought to eject the forefathers of said people. Forefathers of yours may have fought on opposing sides of such battles.

It may be in your best interest to see the gray shades of everyone's life, including that of your own.

[Braggi]

... I will not and can not carry the entire weight of the world. ...

Aren't you glad you have all us helpful progressives to share the burden?

You can count on us!

-Jeff

[Reportanddeport]

My life began when I was born. I didn't pick the history of my ancestors, nor do I care what they did. Whether they obeyed all laws or broke all laws matters not all all to me because I am me.

It is likely that one of your forefathers came here illegally, or did not completely follow the law in other ways. Your wife's forefathers may have settled somewhere illegally, or the offspring of your offspring may marry into lineages of people you presently wish to report and deport.

Offspring of forefathers of the people you presently wish to eject were likely living in these lands you call your America and may have been killed in the battles that your forefathers fought to eject the forefathers of said people. Forefathers of yours may have fought on opposing sides of such battles.

It may be in your best interest to see the gray shades of everyone's life, including that of your own.

[Braggi]

...

I do feel that though darkness can suck the light away, it is still less valuable and powerful than the light itself.

A powerful statement.

I think that's the best post I've seen you make.

-Jeff

[MsTerry]

Yes, this is the most accurate description, that anyone has given of you!
I am happy to see that you do have insight in your self!

I think that your habit of being persistently contrarian is merely to cover the fact that you don't understand many issues. Perhaps if you learned extensively about a particular subject, and stayed primarily on that subject, then you could speak authoritatively on something and not feel perpetually compelled to automatically disagree and/or to disagree in a nonsensical manner.

[Zeno Swijtink]

My life began when I was born. I didn't pick the history of my ancestors, nor do I care what they did. Whether they obeyed all laws or broke all laws matters not all all to me because I am me.

Sure, you are you.

But you were nurtured by surroundings not of you making, shaped by the deeds of your ancestors. Without that support your seed would have withered.

Not caring for the history of your ancestors is not caring for who you have become.

Not caring for the future of your children is rejecting the seeds in your own scrotum.

[Peace Seeker]

R&D and Ms Terry, your exchanges with each other seem more like a personal feud than a serious conversation. Your sarcasms don't come across to me as the kind of irony that clarifies truths. I'm not sure why you are doing this. I think it makes both of you look petty. And it doesn't represent either of your actual levels of intelligence - but at most a degree of verbal cleverness.

Ms Terry, when I read your posts to R&D I wonder if you are trying to punish R&D for having views you find objectionable; or if you are trying to discredit him with sarcastic attacks and ridicule, because you are worried that some people might be swayed by him.

I find many of R&D's views objectionable, and I worry that others could be swayed by some of what he posts. But I think the best way to address those concerns is by clearly, directly and respectfully stating my concerns to him and others, and explaining why I see them as serious problems.

As for him influencing others -- on this bulletin board, I don't think people are likely to emulate R&D's rage or adopt his beligerent hostility toward immigrants.

I do see some people voice inhumane and parochially limited reactions to human suffering, that sometimes coincides with some of R&D's views. But I suspect they developed those views and attitudes indedpendently of R&D, and that his posts aren't a pivotal factor in forming or hardening them. I think sarcastic attacks do lead people to harden their views, however.

R&D, when I read your posts I wonder whether you think that if you concede even a tiny point -- no matter how self-evident -- that this will betray causes and people you value, and imperil everything you are trying to protect. Because it seems to me that you make some statements out of defiance and combativeness, and to avoid letting anything pass.

Like claiming that you don't care about anyone or anything except yourself and your immediate family; or that you don't believe Americans have any moral obligation to respond to suffering elsewhere in the world; or that you see Americans as completely entitled to all the wealth we hog and hoard here, no matter how we got it, or how violently or dishonestly, or at whose expense. (At least that was how I interpreted what you posted.) You might actually believe all this, I suppose, but when I read it I suspect that you are deliberately stonewalling in order to win a public argument, not fully examiniing and sharing what you believe and think inwardly. I suppose you could actually hold all these views exactly the way you state them, but that seems improbable to me. For one thing you seem pretty intelligent, but some of the rhetoric you use is crude and simplistic. That strikes me as tactical and rhetorical, rather than fully candid.

Often when people bait and belittle each other online, the group as a whole gets drawn into an endless reactive exchange of mutual insults. I see that happening constantly on discussion boards and Listserves. This can provide short-term comic entertainment or stimulating and arousing blood sport, but in the longer view I think it perpetuates and deepens our problems, instead of reducing or curing them.

I think the stakes are pretty high in this case, because we are trying to problem solve and understand some very harmful social problems. I'd like to ask both of you to back off.

David

[MsTerry]

David,

It appears that you have appointed your self as the new "superior" being. In your previous post you used the word "superior" to fill in what you thought I was thinking.
Now again you are telling me what I am thinking (of course disguised diplomatically with the word 'I wonder") and what my motivation would be. When I asked you to clarify your post before, you ignored me
If you really want to be a Peace Seeker you could pull me aside privately and ASK ME what my motivation is.
Despite your good intentions, your post comes across as a self-righteous and judgmental lecture. But then again I don't know what your REAL intentions are.

R&D and Ms Terry, your exchanges with each other seem more like a personal feud than a serious conversation. Your sarcasms don't come across to me as the kind of irony that clarifies truths. I'm not sure why you are doing this. I think it makes both of you look petty. And it doesn't represent either of your actual levels of intelligence - but at most a degree of verbal cleverness.

Ms Terry, when I read your posts to R&D I wonder if you are trying to punish R&D for having views you find objectionable; or if you are trying to discredit him with sarcastic attacks and ridicule, because you are worried that some people might be swayed by him.


David

[handy]

Dear Handy,

You wrote:

Democracy deserves what it tolerates.

Tolerance is a function of perceived superiority.
Distasteful at best...

==============================

"I understand the reasoning of your statement."

---No, you don't.

"Here's how I see the reality of this question: "

--- Questions occur in conceptuality; reality is physical.

"There is a false form of tolerance, where people see themselves as superior to others, who they condescendingly "tolerate". "

--- This is precisely the meaning of tolerance. It is Not a "false form".

"True tolerance is respectful, appreciative coexistence with people who you perceive as dramatically different from yourself. I believe that's the meaning most people in our culture give to the word. Not superiority, or "barely tolerating" someone you secretly disrespect. "

---WRONG!!! Respectful, appreciative coexistence MEANS respectful, appreciative coexistence. Not tolerance.

Hint: Different words have Different Meanings.
That's why we use different words!

Attempting to assign approximate synonymity to distinctly different meanings WILL cause confusion and cripple your thinking process.