Illegal Aliens

[Lenny]

Jeff, My suggestion to you is to spend some time in an ethnic neighborhood, maybe the Mission District in San Francisco and to see what its like when people are given a chance to live without being hassled about whether they have a green card or not. Look at the great restaurants and businesses that have arisen their hard work and expertise. Look at the pride the people have in their own neighborhoods. Granted, there is crime-but there's crime everywhere. Is the crime caused by an American citizen okay because they're legal?

Hey, why do you want to send him to my old neighborhood? Besides, he really would get hurt there. His eyes would give him away and the fellas would find and accommodate his fears, at least until he learned.
And sending him away would not really "cure" or help him, so I can't agree much there. After he runs out of hate, and he will as that is the nature: it eats itself up. Then maybe he will dialogue as a human being. Not an easy task for one such as he, but we can always hope.

[phooph]

Haven't you heard about the North American Union?`
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T74VA3xU0EA

And it's new currency, the Amero?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6hiPrsc9g98

BTW I love meeting people of other cultures. That's why I spent so much of my life traveling. And I welcome immigration. But I am against illegal immigration. I believe immigrants whether from the south or the north should have their criminal record and health records checked, as is required for immigrants from any country. I guess these beliefs make me a racist in some people's view. But I know that many Mexican-Americans feel the same way I do.

Did you know that the US now has cases of leprosy? Many now in Texas. Is it possible that unchecked immigration from third world countries is the cause of third world diseases now being here in the US?

Some may believe that countries shouldn't have borders. But they do - that's the reality. So they have to be dealt with. If the American people do not wish to have borders for our country anymore, we should change the current laws through the vote of the people or through Congress. Ignoring immigration laws and leaving borders wide open isn't a good idea in my opinion.

Ever wonder why the govt leaves the borders wide open during this time when we are supposed to be fearing terrorists? Go to www.youtube.com or to Google and search "North American Union". That should give you a clue.

And while you're at it, research "Aztlan", "Mecha", "La Raza", "La Reconquista", "Plan of San Diego"... We actually saw a gang member looking fellow with a Mecha tattoo on his neck in Santa Rosa. Also saw two guys walking down Graton Road outside of Graton and one was wearing an "Aztlan Warrior" t-shirt. This stuff is for real. I'm told they openly speak about this stuff on the Spanish radio stations. Here's a new ad by the Mexican ad firm Teran...



And here's a photo of one of the numerous billboards which ran in L.A...



And here's a video of a near riot in California when Mexicans took down a US flag and replaced it with a Mexican flag...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Y721T9nX0k



Better first look into what you are defending. One's anti "racism" stance may just be feeding a racist machine.

Aztec Al-Qaeda
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9CaEIKGWe7Q

The interesting thing about all this racist stuff is that it appears to be orchestrated by the U.S.'s Ford Foundation, part of the elite ruling class who are planning to bring in The North American Union and replace our dollar with the Amero. "Divide and Conquer", and "Order Out of Chaos" are their mottos. But that's a whole other subject...

[davin]

Reading over this thread, it seems that we could learn something from latin america, they been calling it neo-liberalism for a minute now, we haven't been listening. The governments been shifting to the hands of corporations since the 80's here, and for latin america thats aint nothing new (i.e. Ford Motors having torture chambers in their factories for union organizers in the 70's). We could hoot and holler all day about corruption in Mexico but we need to start pointing out the corrupters, and they the color green, 3 piece suits, wolves in wolves clothing, borderless. Mexico has an illigitamite conservative president thru a fraudluent election, and bush was the first to confirm him (as well as funneling funds). It seems funny that "patriots" here talk about mexicans making change in Mexico, cuz whenever the people do rise up over there, they coming "from below and to the left", and those bullets and Apache helicopters that fall on them weren't manafactured over there. Ever heard of 'Plan Mexico'? The bottom line for a hollow government is profit for corporations, dont get it twisted, and though we might all have different expectations from a government, this is a trend that has been promoted by Milton Friedman and the real real conservatives for some time now. NAFTA wasn't voted on by poor people, we aint politicians but we suffer the consequence. Immigration is a logical and unfortunate consecuence of these types of policies, but bashing the poor?! damn, thats a low blow knowing full well the policy comes from the top. This trend towards small government in the North is what has led to South Americas turn towards the left, and though some may not like it, if they were to keep going to the rightwing, they'd be too similar to Mexico (which has the largest diaspora on the globe).

As for researching 'Plan of San Diego', wasn't that some post-Mexican Revolution 1917 business?? damn. As for 'Aztlan', that were the Aztecs migrated from before settling on Lake Tenochtitlan (Mexico City), and is generally considered the Southwest United Sates. MEChA, you should definatley worry about their subversive taco sales on college campus's across the country, as well as the fact they trying to get young Raza into college. Yes, Raza. Thats what we call ourselves in our spanish, no too big a deal. La Reconquista, these are the types of fears you might conjure up when you rely on Youtube as the most relevant source of news and information. If you saw a MEChA tattoo on a young man that scared you, perhaps the fact that he was an educated gangster was cause for alarm (MEChA being a student organization), but maybe its cause not to judge the book by its cover. I think its important to read books, not video clips or soundbites from the Empires talking heads, and damn, I hope I never again spend 20 precious minutes responding to some blog type bull on a listserve.

[Reportanddeport]

This kind of nonsense is preaching to the choir of the "Blame America First" crowd, but it's utterly meaningless to Joe 6-pack who doesn't know or care about the alleged history of Latin America.

Corporations profit from illegal aliens, then buy the government to keep the borders open, to let more illegal aliens in, to work for corporations, who keep the cycle going.

The perpetual whining from communists about the poor people provides the PERFECT SUPPORT FOR THE VERY CORPORATIONS THAT EXPLOIT THE POOR PEOPLE.

America will NOT be secure and beneficial to AMERICAN CITIZENS until AMERICAN CITIZENS stand up for AMERICA, regardless of race, color or political affiliation.

America CAN not and WILL not save the world. We need to SAVE OUR COUNTRY.

You want to reduce the power of corporations? Then do it by denying them an endless supply of cheap, foreign, illegal labor.

Reading over this thread, it seems that we could learn something from latin america, they been calling it neo-liberalism for a minute now, we haven't been listening. The governments been shifting to the hands of corporations since the 80's here, and for latin america thats aint nothing new (i.e. Ford Motors having torture chambers in their factories for union organizers in the 70's). We could hoot and holler all day about corruption in Mexico but we need to start pointing out the corrupters, and they the color green, 3 piece suits, wolves in wolves clothing, borderless. Mexico has an illigitamite conservative president thru a fraudluent election, and bush was the first to confirm him (as well as funneling funds). It seems funny that "patriots" here talk about mexicans making change in Mexico, cuz whenever the people do rise up over there, they coming "from below and to the left", and those bullets and Apache helicopters that fall on them weren't manafactured over there. Ever heard of 'Plan Mexico'? The bottom line for a hollow government is profit for corporations, dont get it twisted, and though we might all have different expectations from a government, this is a trend that has been promoted by Milton Friedman and the real real conservatives for some time now. NAFTA wasn't voted on by poor people, we aint politicians but we suffer the consequence. Immigration is a logical and unfortunate consecuence of these types of policies, but bashing the poor?! damn, thats a low blow knowing full well the policy comes from the top. This trend towards small government in the North is what has led to South Americas turn towards the left, and though some may not like it, if they were to keep going to the rightwing, they'd be too similar to Mexico (which has the largest diaspora on the globe).

As for researching 'Plan of San Diego', wasn't that some post-Mexican Revolution 1917 business?? damn. As for 'Aztlan', that were the Aztecs migrated from before settling on Lake Tenochtitlan (Mexico City), and is generally considered the Southwest United Sates. MEChA, you should definatley worry about their subversive taco sales on college campus's across the country, as well as the fact they trying to get young Raza into college. Yes, Raza. Thats what we call ourselves in our spanish, no too big a deal. La Reconquista, these are the types of fears you might conjure up when you rely on Youtube as the most relevant source of news and information. If you saw a MEChA tattoo on a young man that scared you, perhaps the fact that he was an educated gangster was cause for alarm (MEChA being a student organization), but maybe its cause not to judge the book by its cover. I think its important to read books, not video clips or soundbites from the Empires talking heads, and damn, I hope I never again spend 20 precious minutes responding to some blog type bull on a listserve.

[Reportanddeport]

Stop Global Corporations from Sponsoring Illegal Immigration! BOYCOTT ABSOLUT Friends of ALIPAC:
Americans for Legal Immigration PAC administers the NIIBC (National Illegal Immigration Boycott Coalition) which we built last year to boycott Bank of America for giving credit cards to illegal aliens (www dot bankofamericaboycott dot com).
ALIPAC is proud to have set the bar with the largest coalition efforts to date in our movement.
After consulting with our friends and allies that represent the approximately 100 organizations in the NIIBC, we have launched a national boycott of Absolut Vodka products.

[Braggi]

Stop Global Corporations from Sponsoring Illegal Immigration! BOYCOTT ABSOLUT ... [snip] ... we have launched a national boycott of Absolut Vodka products.

I have no problem supporting your boycott since I've never bought Absolut and I don't plan to. Also, when B of A bought our bank, we dumped the credit card, but I doubt your efforts will make much of a difference.

In any case, I support cleaning up the immigration red tape and I don't think many would argue that point. They could start by fully staffing support positions that you, Reportanddeport, found so dismally ineffective when you tried to get help.

If it was safer and easier to get legal, I'm sure more would.

I'm not very worried about losing California to Mexico. Once the kids grow up here they become "US-ified and I think few are interested in returning to Mexico in any way. I'm more concerned about our Government gradually dissolving the borders with "Free Trade" agreements.

What ever happened to treaties?

-Jeff

[Melodymama]

Stop Global Corporations from Sponsoring Illegal Immigration! BOYCOTT ABSOLUT Friends of ALIPAC:
Americans for Legal Immigration PAC administers the NIIBC (National Illegal Immigration Boycott Coalition) which we built last year to boycott Bank of America for giving credit cards to illegal aliens (www dot bankofamericaboycott dot com).
ALIPAC is proud to have set the bar with the largest coalition efforts to date in our movement.
After consulting with our friends and allies that represent the approximately 100 organizations in the NIIBC, we have launched a national boycott of Absolut Vodka products.

Thank you for identifying the organization you represent. It deserves some study. I am offended that you are so adamant and aggressive in your writing. I see the work you are doing and I wonder how you manage your anger in person. If it exudes from you so freely as it does in the writing, you may never get the respect you deserve in your job. Anger this flagrant is rarely just about the present, and often betrays a violent past or abusive past. There are many wonderful people around here. Most of us are not naive, and while we see many problems, we also focus on the positive people and activities in our lives to keep a balance. I wish you well, and I wish you would keep silent on this site until you are here longer and can understand this community more clearly. In the meantime, I will ignore your posts and I encourage Barry to monitor your posts carefully as it seems you are unable to contain your angry energy.

[MsTerry]

Yeah, you're right on
I think we should grab all those Aliens, throw them into their spaceship and tell them to go back where they came from!!!
I WANT AMERICA FOR REAL AMERICANS!!!
Let's clean up this place!!
If it ain't red, it's gonna be dead!
It is time that we get rid of those Asians, Caucasians, Blacks and all other kind of imported crap.
Who's going first?

This kind of nonsense is preaching to the choir of the "Blame America First" crowd, but it's utterly meaningless to Joe 6-pack who doesn't know or care about the alleged history of Latin America.

Corporations profit from illegal aliens, then buy the government to keep the borders open, to let more illegal aliens in, to work for corporations, who keep the cycle going.

The perpetual whining from communists about the poor people provides the PERFECT SUPPORT FOR THE VERY CORPORATIONS THAT EXPLOIT THE POOR PEOPLE.

America will NOT be secure and beneficial to AMERICAN CITIZENS until AMERICAN CITIZENS stand up for AMERICA, regardless of race, color or political affiliation.

America CAN not and WILL not save the world. We need to SAVE OUR COUNTRY.

You want to reduce the power of corporations? Then do it by denying them an endless supply of cheap, foreign, illegal labor.

[davin]

wow, reportanddeport has some of the best arguments I've ever seen, the capital letters really hammer the main points home, especially when he capitalizes AMERICA, that really makes me proud. His equating communists with private corporate interest really made a lot of sense, and when he calls on citizens to "stand up", I really felt inspired and clear about what needs to be done. We must stand.

[Valley Oak]

I'M CLIMBING ON BOARD TOO!!! LET'S TAKE AMERIKKKA BACK FROM THE TRASH! LET'S PUT AMERIKKKA BACK ON ITS PEDESTAL FROM WHERE BUSH JR. KNOCKED HER DOWN FROM! LET'S GET REALLY RACIST LIKE IN THE GOOD OLD DAYS AND KICK EVERYONE OUT OF THIS COUNTRY WHO IS NOT A REAL OR TRULY PATRIOTIC AMERICAN! THIS IS BECOMING A PATRIOTIC MOVEMENT STARTED RIGHT HERE IN THE WACCO LIST!

THE PRIDE IS BACK! BACK IN AMERIKKKA! WE ARE UNSTOPPABLE NOW!

EDWARD!

FUCK!

wow, reportanddeport has some of the best arguments I've ever seen, the capital letters really hammer the main points home, especially when he capitalizes AMERICA, that really makes me proud. His equating communists with private corporate interest really made a lot of sense, and when he calls on citizens to "stand up", I really felt inspired and clear about what needs to be done. We must stand.

[PeriodThree]

Hi,

I am sort of confused by your message. You say you are offended that he is adamant and aggressive in his writing. But being adamant and aggressive seem like positive attributes in creating compelling argument.

And in reality, dismissing someone because you have interpreted their writing as meaning they are 'angry' is quite literally the quintessental ad hominem attack.

I don't think that his anger has any bearing on the rightness (or wrongness!) of his position, and so attacking him as it appears you do because you don't like the tone of his writing seems to me to be a deeply abusive act on your part.

I assume that you will disagree with my conclusion that your behavior towards him is deeply and horribly abusive and inappropriate. But it truly is my honest opinion.

I strongly believe that publicly shaming someone, which is how I read your actions here, because of the tone of their writing is an aggressive and truly violent and wrong action which destroys the chance of connection and community.

OTOH, I have had a recent wonderful exchange with another person in which we both realized that our interpretations of the words of the other were basically completely and totally opposite to what we meant, so I must assume that you are not a 'bad' person or anything, but I just need to let you know how I interpreted your words.

But seriously, he made an argument in favor of a position. You ignored his argument in favor of attacking him for what you perceive is his 'anger.' That really and truly is a classic ad hominem attack, which is one of the classic logical fallacies. Making this attack in public, as opposed to sending it to him privately, feels, to me, like an intentional attempt on your part to shame him. And honestly, I really really really hate it when people ignore issues in favor of publicly shaming other folks.

OTOH, and perhaps I am near to out of hands :-), I can imagine you having totally benign motives. All I can do is to emphasize that your message felt very very very bad, and mean, and shaming, and aggressive to me, and it wasn't even directed at me!

Cheers,
Rich

I am offended that you are so adamant and aggressive in your writing. I see the work you are doing and I wonder how you manage your anger in person. If it exudes from you so freely as it does in the writing, you may never get the respect you deserve in your job. Anger this flagrant is rarely just about the present, and often betrays a violent past or abusive past. There are many wonderful people around here. Most of us are not naive, and while we see many problems, we also focus on the positive people and activities in our lives to keep a balance. I wish you well, and I wish you would keep silent on this site until you are here longer and can understand this community more clearly. In the meantime, I will ignore your posts and I encourage Barry to monitor your posts carefully as it seems you are unable to contain your angry energy.

[Zeno Swijtink]

A Day without a Mexican is a great comedy that details the havoc that would be created by the project that Ratonandselldown seems to have made so central to his identity that he took it on as his name.

https://www.adaywithoutamexican.com/

[Reportanddeport]

No, I don't represent ALIPAC, I only work with them and support them. You're "offended"? OK, do your thing, take it however you want. Yes, I am adamant because of all the bullshit I had to go through getting my wife into the country. How I would have loooooooooved to have Maria with me those 2 1/2 years we were separated, even if it was illegal, just knowing that there would have been no consequences for the law breaking. When you can SEE and EXPERIENCE the immigration process firsthand, then see millions of others making an absolute MOCKERY of what you did, it tends to make you adamant.

But I don't know what you mean by "aggressive". I'm not forcing anything on anyone. I like free speech and I just DON'T WORRY about what I say. If you choose to be offended, my life will still go on. I'm not gonna cry just because others do.

How do I manage my anger? I have been shaped by hundreds of highly stressful experiences in my life that have taught me that anger is not always necessary.

No, it's not so much "anger" I see in myself, as it is strength, dedication and commitment.

I only want the respect of people that I respect. I mean, if George Bush or Albert Fish or Joe Stalin really admired me, what would I care?

YOU see "anger", while I see TOUGHNESS in myself. I rarely get actually angry, but it does sometimes happen. To me, anger should have a CONSTRUCTIVE PURPOSE. Maybe you're just weak is all.

Well, a violent past is not necessarily a bad thing. It just depends on how and why that violence was used.

You wish that I would keep silent? Well that's really so very kind and friendly of you to say such a thing. I can feel the and "positiveness" coming out of you.

Yes, yes, I KNOW I'm being very carefully monitored. I'm much too dangerous to be trusted around weak minds.
And WE'RE watching you too........

Thank you for identifying the organization you represent. It deserves some study. I am offended that you are so adamant and aggressive in your writing. I see the work you are doing and I wonder how you manage your anger in person. If it exudes from you so freely as it does in the writing, you may never get the respect you deserve in your job. Anger this flagrant is rarely just about the present, and often betrays a violent past or abusive past. There are many wonderful people around here. Most of us are not naive, and while we see many problems, we also focus on the positive people and activities in our lives to keep a balance. I wish you well, and I wish you would keep silent on this site until you are here longer and can understand this community more clearly. In the meantime, I will ignore your posts and I encourage Barry to monitor your posts carefully as it seems you are unable to contain your angry energy.

[Valley Oak]

Dear R&D,

I don't know exactly what happened with you and your wife regarding getting her legal residency. I will tell you a little about our situation. When I sojourned in Europe for ten years, I met my wife, who is still a Spanish citizen (Spanish from Spain, the country in Europe). We got married in Spain and all of our paperwork was in order because of the Spanish and American authorities' requirements to formalize a nuptial agreement.

When the day came that we decided to come to the States to live, we went to the U.S. embassy in Madrid and they told us everything we had to do in order to go about it the right way. So we followed the rules, jumped all of their hoops (which were a few but not too many), paid about $1,000 in different kinds of administrative fees, medical exams, etc. The entire process took maybe three months, if that.

When we arrived at the airport in the U.S., the authorities were waiting for my wife, took her photograph, and gave her a permanent residence card on the spot, right there in the airport before we boarded another plane that took us across the U.S. to California, which was our final destination. I don't know what happened in your situation but I do know that one thing that governments really hate with a passion is when a foreigner, let's say a tourist, likes it so much that they suddenly decide to stay AND THEN try to do the paperwork to normalize their illegal stay in the country.

We followed the rules. How about you?

Edward

No, I don't represent ALIPAC, I only work with them and support them. You're "offended"? OK, do your thing, take it however you want. Yes, I am adamant because of all the bullshit I had to go through getting my wife into the country. How I would have loooooooooved to have Maria with me those 2 1/2 years we were separated, even if it was illegal, just knowing that there would have been no consequences for the law breaking. When you can SEE and EXPERIENCE the immigration process firsthand, then see millions of others making an absolute MOCKERY of what you did, it tends to make you adamant.

But I don't know what you mean by "aggressive". I'm not forcing anything on anyone. I like free speech and I just DON'T WORRY about what I say. If you choose to be offended, my life will still go on. I'm not gonna cry just because others do.

How do I manage my anger? I have been shaped by hundreds of highly stressful experiences in my life that have taught me that anger is not always necessary.

No, it's not so much "anger" I see in myself, as it is strength, dedication and commitment.

I only want the respect of people that I respect. I mean, if George Bush or Albert Fish or Joe Stalin really admired me, what would I care?

YOU see "anger", while I see TOUGHNESS in myself. I rarely get actually angry, but it does sometimes happen. To me, anger should have a CONSTRUCTIVE PURPOSE. Maybe you're just weak is all.

Well, a violent past is not necessarily a bad thing. It just depends on how and why that violence was used.

You wish that I would keep silent? Well that's really so very kind and friendly of you to say such a thing. I can feel the and "positiveness" coming out of you.

Yes, yes, I KNOW I'm being very carefully monitored. I'm much too dangerous to be trusted around weak minds.
And WE'RE watching you too........

[handy]

Fred Reed is an American expat who moved to Mexico a few years ago. I think this essay is pretty accurate.

https://www.fredoneverything.net/FOE_Frame_Column.htm

Immigration

The Art of Unpolicy



April 7, 2008


To grasp American immigration policy, to the extent that it can be grasped, one need only remember that the United States forbids smoking while subsidizing tobacco growers.

We say to impoverished Mexicans, “See this river? Don’t cross it. If you do, we’ll give you good jobs, a drivers license, citizenship for your kids born here and eventually for you, school for said kids, public assistance, governmental documents in Spanish for your convenience, and a much better future. There is no penalty for getting caught. Now, don’t cross this river, hear?”

How smart is that? We’re baiting them. It’s like putting out a salt lick and then complaining when deer come. As parents, the immigrants would be irresponsible not to cross.

The problem of immigration, note, is entirely self-inflicted. The US chose to let them in. It didn’t have to. They came to work. If Americans hadn’t hired them, they would have gone back.

We have immigration because we want immigration. Liberals favor immigration because it makes them feel warm and fuzzy and international and all, and from a genuine streak of decency. Conservative Republican businessman favor immigration, frequently sotto voce, because they want cheap labor that actually shows up and works.

It’s a story I’ve heard many times—from a landscaper, a construction firm, a junkyard owner, a group of plant nurserymen, and so on. “We need Mexicans.” You could yell “Migra!” in a lot of restaurants in Washington, and the entire staff would disappear out the back door. Do we expect businessmen to vote themselves out of business? That’s why we don’t take the obvious steps to control immigration (a thousand-dollar-a-day fine for hiring illegals, half to go anonymously to whoever informed on the employer).

In Jalisco, Mexico, where I live, crossing illegally is regarded as casually as pirating music or smoking a joint, and the coyotes who smuggle people across as a public utility, like light rail. The smuggling is frequently done by bribing the American border guards, who are notoriously corrupt.

Why corrupt? Money. In the book De Los Maras a Los Zetas, by a Mexican journalist, I find an account of a transborder tunnel he knew of that could put 150 illegals a day across the border. (I can’t confirm this.) The price is about $2000 a person. That’s $300,000 a day, tax-free. What does a border guard make? (And where can I find a shovel?) The author estimated that perhaps forty tunnels were active at any give time. Certainly some are. A woman I know says she came up in a restaurant and just walked out the door. Let’s hear it for Homeland Security: All together now….

The amusing thing is the extent to which American policy is not to have a policy. The open floodgates to the south are changing—have changed, will continue to change—the nature of the country forever. You may think this a good thing or a bad thing. It is certainly an important thing—the most important for us in at least a century. Surely (one might think) it deserves careful thought, national debate, prudence, things like that.

But no. In the clownishness that we regard as presidential campaigning, none of the contenders has much to say on the matter. In a dance of evasion that has become customary, the candidates carefully ignore those matters of most import for the nation, since considering hard questions might be divisive. War, peace, race, immigration, affirmative action, the militarization of the economy, the desirability of empire—these play no part in the electoral discussion. We seem to regard large issues as we might the weather: interesting, but beyond control. It’s linger, loiter, dawdle and fumble and see what happens.

And so, while various conservative groups (not including businessmen) rush out to guard the borders, nice liberal professors in the Northeast hurried learn Spanish to help local illegals settle in. Many people, alienated from the United States by policies and trends they find odious, no longer care. There is no national consensus. The country fractures into a congeries of warring agglomerations and the resulting paralysis manifests itself in drift.

The problem with muddling through is that one may not like what lies on the other side of the muddle. Some day we may look back on the question of immigration and see that it all worked out well in the end and wonder what the fuss was about. Or we may not. No one will be able to charge us with having thought things through.

There is much billingsgate about whether to grant amnesty. The question strikes me as cosmetic. We are not going to round up millions of people and physically throw them across the border. Whether we should doesn’t matter. It’s fantasy. Too many people want them here, or don’t care that they are here, or don’t want to uproot families who have established new lives here. Ethnic cleansing is ugly. Further, the legal Latino population votes. It’s just starting to vote. A bumper crop of Mexican-American kids, possessed of citizenship, are growing headlong toward voting age. These are not throwable-out, even in principle.

People complain that Mexico doesn’t seal the borders. Huh? Mexico is a country, not a prison. It has no obligation to enforce American laws that America declines to enforce. Then there was the uproar when some fast-food restaurant in the US began accepting pesos. Why? Mexican border towns accept dollars. Next came outrage against Mexico because its consulates were issuing ID cards to illegals, which they then used to get drivers licenses. Why outrage? A country has every right to issue ID to its citizens. America doesn’t have to accept them. If it does, whose problem is that?

If you want to see a reasonable immigration policy, look to Mexico. You automatically get a ninety-day tourist visa when you land. No border Nazis. To get residency papers, you need two things (apart from photographs, passport, etc.) First, a valid tourist visa to show that you entered the country legally. Mexico doesn’t do illegal aliens. Second, a demonstrable income of $1000 a month. You are welcome to live in Mexico, but you are going to pay your own way. Sounds reasonable to me.

You want a Mexican passport? Mexico allows dual citizenship. You (usually) have to be a resident for five years before applying. You also have to speak Spanish. It’s the national language. What sense does it make to have citizens who can’t talk to anybody?

It looks to me as though America thoughtlessly adopted an unwise policy, continued it until reversal became approximately impossible, and now doesn’t like the results. It must be Mexico’s fault.
.

[Braggi]

Fred Reed is an American expat who moved to Mexico a few years ago. I think this essay is pretty accurate.

https://www.fredoneverything.net/FOE_Frame_Column.htm

Immigration

The Art of Unpolicy
...

A good essay. Thanks Handy for posting that. I would click "Gratitude" but I don't agree with everything the author says. Overall, I like the point that the immigration "problem" is a US problem. If it is to be solved, it will be a US solution. I also think it's so complex an issue that many solutions will be called for.

I wonder if there will be any changes with a new "leader" in the White House?

-Jeff

[alanora]

I understand your frustration with the personal aspects of your ins experience. I do not understand the ease with which blaming and otherness fuel your world. Yes, there are those that cheated to get here, and that infuriates you as you have done it the "right" way and been unable to have your needs met whether re; legislation, or sheer ineptitude, and actually failing to be heard and unable to get any information. About as disempowering an experience as one can get. All this re; someone as near, dear, and essential as your wife....Very frustrating on many levels. The choice to focus your energy on other imported humanity is perplexing when your frustration is with our non-functional system.Your attack and perception of evil on the part of beings from a different man-made category or locale alert me to the workings of your mind as possibly very differently skewed than my own. The self righteousness you exhibit could be a bit off-putting to others, or even frightening. A fence will work here as well as anywhere else a barrier has been erected.....not. Try and enlarge focus if you can to include such ideas as global community, and members of the human race, and equitable distribution of goods and services, and zero waste, and intentional zero growth of population on the planet and explore/consider soul growth/evolution as a possible direction for focus of your tremendous energies. Find something for which you are grateful and remember it often. Please. Thank you. I am sorry, please forgive me, I love you. Mindy

This was just sent to me. No, I didn't make it up. Maybe the vast, racist network of White people who stole North America invented the whole story.

As many as 20 students were involved. She was spit on and assaulted by male Hispanic students. They threatened to rape her, stab her, and kill her. The school staff ordered her to return to class and she not allowed to phone her parents.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mJSvGapFxmY

[Reportanddeport]

We got married in Jan of 01. I tried to petition her as soon as I got home, but THEN I learned that I had to have had a certain income for the previous 3 years PRIOR to getting married, regardless of what my income at the time was. The INS doesn't tell you what the actual income requirements are, they don't even know, so they refer you to ANOTHER government agency. NOTHING will actually happen on your case until you mail everything in, and unless you have money to buy a consultant, you have to figure everything out on your own, so I had to do it by myself. So in March 01 I thought I had enough forms and tax records and everything and I petitioned her. I got a reply back a month later saying it would take over 800 days to process the petition. I wrote back asking why it would take so long, and they never answered me. I called them to find out, but I was allowed about three questions, then they hung up on me. I called back and they wouldn't answer the phone. With their petition acknowledgment letter, they said no information about the case can by learned by calling the National Service Center, that you have to call the California Service Center. But if you call the CSC during the day, it is ALWAYS busy, so you can NEVER, EVER talk to a real person. The paperwork said you can call the automated system at night, which I did, but it didn't give any relevant info about my petition. So I had no answers. So in desperation, I called the National Service Center to complain and tell them that the CSC doesn't work and won't help, but the NSC couldn't care less, and did nothing but suggest I wait 18 months and just "see what happens". A year went by, and still nothing from the INS. No letters, no phone calls, no way of finding out info about the case. I had all my family members calling the CSC on and off for a year, hundreds of calls trying to get through, but none were ever successful. I met with the phony immigration consultant, Teresa Foster. She was as cold and uncaring as an INS officer, and there was nothing she could do for me any way. I sent about 40 letters to the INS, sometimes sending 5 letters of the same thing per day, but all of them were ignored. I sent a letter to Senator Feinsten, which in itself took six weeks to get a response. I asked Feinstein to look into it. 15 months after I mailed in the petition, I got a letter from the INS saying that they had sent me a letter a year ago asking for a copy of my divorce certificate. But I never got such a letter, and they had ignored all the letters during that first year when I tried to find out what the problem was. These F****** IDIOTS sat on this case for a year and ignored me, then had the nerve to say that I had failed to answer their correspondence. So I had to get a certified copy of the divorce decree from the court and mail it in. Two months later, I got approval of the PETITION ALONE. So the case then moved on to the State Department and another year of problems.

I'M GONNA STOP RIGHT HERE BECAUSE THIS IS UPSETTING ME AND IT'S TAKING TOO LONG. I can continue this in the future if you want.

Dear R&D,

I don't know exactly what happened with you and your wife regarding getting her legal residency. I will tell you a little about our situation. When I sojourned in Europe for ten years, I met my wife, who is still a Spanish citizen (Spanish from Spain, the country in Europe). We got married in Spain and all of our paperwork was in order because of the Spanish and American authorities' requirements to formalize a nuptial agreement.

When the day came that we decided to come to the States to live, we went to the U.S. embassy in Madrid and they told us everything we had to do in order to go about it the right way. So we followed the rules, jumped all of their hoops (which were a few but not too many), paid about $1,000 in different kinds of administrative fees, medical exams, etc. The entire process took maybe three months, if that.

When we arrived at the airport in the U.S., the authorities were waiting for my wife, took her photograph, and gave her a permanent residence card on the spot, right there in the airport before we boarded another plane that took us across the U.S. to California, which was our final destination. I don't know what happened in your situation but I do know that one thing that governments really hate with a passion is when a foreigner, let's say a tourist, likes it so much that they suddenly decide to stay AND THEN try to do the paperwork to normalize their illegal stay in the country.

We followed the rules. How about you?

Edward

[Reportanddeport]

"Blaming and otherness fuel your world"? I have no idea what that means.

If YOU stand in a long line at the grocery store, and you see others ALLOWED to cut in front of you, then WHAT will you do? When you ask the checker what the hell is going on, repeatedly, and they always ignore you, what will you do? When the establishment rules are for you to stand in line and wait your turn, but the rule followers are ignored by that very establishment, what will you do?

But your long, rambling letter with so many incorrect assumptions and lies about how I see the world can not be answered in totality, in part because I can't understand it and also because it's just too nonsensical to waste my time on.

I understand your frustration with the personal aspects of your ins experience. I do not understand the ease with which blaming and otherness fuel your world. Yes, there are those that cheated to get here, and that infuriates you as you have done it the "right" way and been unable to have your needs met whether re; legislation, or sheer ineptitude, and actually failing to be heard and unable to get any information. About as disempowering an experience as one can get. All this re; someone as near, dear, and essential as your wife....Very frustrating on many levels. The choice to focus your energy on other imported humanity is perplexing when your frustration is with our non-functional system.Your attack and perception of evil on the part of beings from a different man-made category or locale alert me to the workings of your mind as possibly very differently skewed than my own. The self righteousness you exhibit could be a bit off-putting to others, or even frightening. A fence will work here as well as anywhere else a barrier has been erected.....not. Try and enlarge focus if you can to include such ideas as global community, and members of the human race, and equitable distribution of goods and services, and zero waste, and intentional zero growth of population on the planet and explore/consider soul growth/evolution as a possible direction for focus of your tremendous energies. Find something for which you are grateful and remember it often. Please. Thank you. I am sorry, please forgive me, I love you. Mindy

[Melodymama]

Reportanddeport wrote: I'M GONNA STOP RIGHT HERE BECAUSE THIS IS UPSETTING ME AND IT'S TAKING TOO LONG. I can continue this in the future if you want.



I cannot imagine how difficult and frustrating this has been. And in the end you have her here with you. You must love her very much to have worked so hard to bring her here. Thank you for sharing this personal story. I would be interested in reading the continuation. Laura

[Valley Oak]

Dear Jeff (Wilson, not Jeff Winter),

I TOTALLY take your side with the horrifying experience and injustice that you have been put through! All of that horse shit the INS put you through is grossly unfair.

I would hire an attorney, although it appears that you were finally able to bring your wife to the States? Very often, the only right thing to do is to contact a lawyer asap, even if it's to set your mind at ease, answer some basic questions about your rights, or to deal with a serious issue such as yours. Too often people make the mistake of thinking that finding an attorney is like using an elephant gun to kill an ant and nothing could be further from the truth. There are legal insurance companies such as ARAG and Prepaid Legal Services that charge $25 a month and make most legal representation affordable.

I certainly hope that your marital life is squared away and that you both are now happy and living together here in the U.S. I would have been absolutely furious! I am sincerely interested in knowing if you have been successful in this.

On another point, I get the feeling that you are directing your anger in the wrong direction. On the surface, at least, despite the fact that your wife is herself an immigrant and you have both endured this repulsive ordeal, you take a very unsympathetic stance towards other immigrants. Why? The only thing that occurs to me is that because your matrimony was wrung through the system in such a barbaric manner on the one hand and then you see other illegal immigrants get 'amnesty' on the other hand, is what is probably eating you up.

If I were you, I would direct my anger towards the U.S. government and this administration in particular for having such a brutal policy towards immigrants such as your wife. It is conservative america that wants a 'zero tolerance' policy towards immigration. Just look at how Republicans boo McCain publicly because he wants to be lenient with immigrants (and I side with him on this notion).

Can you find another line of work? Because I also get the feeling that what you are doing for a living does not let you forget. There is an old term called 'purposeful change' that is for people who have undergone a terrible challenge in life, such as overcoming alcoholism, a death in the family, cancer, etc. Such a person can do a major lifestyle change such as moving to a new home, changing employment, move to another state or country, change a major lifestyle pattern, etc. You might want to consider these things and start putting it behind you. Seeking therapy is another good action to take in your set of circumstances. Another possibility would be for you to become a member of a political action group of some kind or some nonprofit that addresses social injustices such as the one that you were put through.

Peace be with you,

Edward

We got married in Jan of 01. I tried to petition her as soon as I got home, but THEN I learned that I had to have had a certain income for the previous 3 years PRIOR to getting married, regardless of what my income at the time was. The INS doesn't tell you what the actual income requirements are, they don't even know, so they refer you to ANOTHER government agency. NOTHING will actually happen on your case until you mail everything in, and unless you have money to buy a consultant, you have to figure everything out on your own, so I had to do it by myself. So in March 01 I thought I had enough forms and tax records and everything and I petitioned her. I got a reply back a month later saying it would take over 800 days to process the petition. I wrote back asking why it would take so long, and they never answered me. I called them to find out, but I was allowed about three questions, then they hung up on me. I called back and they wouldn't answer the phone. With their petition acknowledgment letter, they said no information about the case can by learned by calling the National Service Center, that you have to call the California Service Center. But if you call the CSC during the day, it is ALWAYS busy, so you can NEVER, EVER talk to a real person. The paperwork said you can call the automated system at night, which I did, but it didn't give any relevant info about my petition. So I had no answers. So in desperation, I called the National Service Center to complain and tell them that the CSC doesn't work and won't help, but the NSC couldn't care less, and did nothing but suggest I wait 18 months and just "see what happens". A year went by, and still nothing from the INS. No letters, no phone calls, no way of finding out info about the case. I had all my family members calling the CSC on and off for a year, hundreds of calls trying to get through, but none were ever successful. I met with the phony immigration consultant, Teresa Foster. She was as cold and uncaring as an INS officer, and there was nothing she could do for me any way. I sent about 40 letters to the INS, sometimes sending 5 letters of the same thing per day, but all of them were ignored. I sent a letter to Senator Feinsten, which in itself took six weeks to get a response. I asked Feinstein to look into it. 15 months after I mailed in the petition, I got a letter from the INS saying that they had sent me a letter a year ago asking for a copy of my divorce certificate. But I never got such a letter, and they had ignored all the letters during that first year when I tried to find out what the problem was. These F****** IDIOTS sat on this case for a year and ignored me, then had the nerve to say that I had failed to answer their correspondence. So I had to get a certified copy of the divorce decree from the court and mail it in. Two months later, I got approval of the PETITION ALONE. So the case then moved on to the State Department and another year of problems.

I'M GONNA STOP RIGHT HERE BECAUSE THIS IS UPSETTING ME AND IT'S TAKING TOO LONG. I can continue this in the future if you want.

[Reportanddeport]

Anger in the wrong direction? So when the trespassers are breaking into your house, and you've ALREADY CALLED THE POLICE and the police just don't care, THEN what do you do? You DON'T take on the trespassers yourself, because that would be "directing your anger in the wrong direction"?

Bush IS my number 1 enemy, but the INS policies were in place BEFORE Bush came into office. Bush was in office for 2 mos when I petitioned Maria. I got married 3 days after Bush was sworn in.

What Bush does is keep the borders open to ALLOW illegal immigration. You may hate Bush for other reasons, but if you love illegal immigration, then BUSH IS YOUR BEST FRIEND. If you love corporate welfare, then BUSH IS YOUR BEST FRIEND. If you like low wages for everyone in the country, then BUSH IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.

There's soooooo much that you either don't know, or maybe you're just totally opposed to an independent, sovereign U.S.A., altogether. I don't know where you're coming from.

Dear Jeff (Wilson, not Jeff Winter),

I TOTALLY take your side with the horrifying experience and injustice that you have been put through! All of that horse shit the INS put you through is grossly unfair.

I would hire an attorney, although it appears that you were finally able to bring your wife to the States? Very often, the only right thing to do is to contact a lawyer asap, even if it's to set your mind at ease, answer some basic questions about your rights, or to deal with a serious issue such as yours. Too often people make the mistake of thinking that finding an attorney is like using an elephant gun to kill an ant and nothing could be further from the truth. There are legal insurance companies such as ARAG and Prepaid Legal Services that charge $25 a month and make most legal representation affordable.

I certainly hope that your marital life is squared away and that you both are now happy and living together here in the U.S. I would have been absolutely furious! I am sincerely interested in knowing if you have been successful in this.

On another point, I get the feeling that you are directing your anger in the wrong direction. On the surface, at least, despite the fact that your wife is herself an immigrant and you have both endured this repulsive ordeal, you take a very unsympathetic stance towards other immigrants. Why? The only thing that occurs to me is that because your matrimony was wrung through the system in such a barbaric manner on the one hand and then you see other illegal immigrants get 'amnesty' on the other hand, is what is probably eating you up.

If I were you, I would direct my anger towards the U.S. government and this administration in particular for having such a brutal policy towards immigrants such as your wife. It is conservative america that wants a 'zero tolerance' policy towards immigration. Just look at how Republicans boo McCain publicly because he wants to be lenient with immigrants (and I side with him on this notion).

Can you find another line of work? Because I also get the feeling that what you are doing for a living does not let you forget. There is an old term called 'purposeful change' that is for people who have undergone a terrible challenge in life, such as overcoming alcoholism, a death in the family, cancer, etc. Such a person can do a major lifestyle change such as moving to a new home, changing employment, move to another state or country, change a major lifestyle pattern, etc. You might want to consider these things and start putting it behind you. Seeking therapy is another good action to take in your set of circumstances. Another possibility would be for you to become a member of a political action group of some kind or some nonprofit that addresses social injustices such as the one that you were put through.

Peace be with you,

Edward

[alanora]

When in line at the grocery store and I am cut in on in line, I have a plethora of choices of my actions and thoughts with which to respond. Initially probably thoughts of annoyance or the value of my time might pass through my mind. Hopefully, before I opened my mouth to say anything, I would remember times that I had been in a hurry and asked to go ahead and was grateful my request was honored. There are times I am not in a hurry and I can silently thank the person for keeping me in line just that moment longer enough to avoid an accident or enable a meeting with a friend that other wise might have been missed. It can be an opportunity to observe human behavior in that incident. I could be practicing staying open and expansive vs, tense and angry and been granted a gift. I could be hate filled for the rule breakers and apparent authorities, or I could step back and understand. I could leave, never to shop there again, or I could come back later. I could choose less busy times and/or decide to avoid that checker in the future. I hope that helps clear up my position. In the prior rambling note to you I had been repeating what I thought you had meant, in an attempt to understand you. By "blaming" I was referring to your anger with undocumented folk from other countries as if it was them responsible for your problems, admittedly astoundingly frustrating, with ins. Otherness means looking at someone of another nationality and feeling very different, rather than like a fellow traveler on the road of life. I hope this is more clear. When younger I was more angry like you, but angry with the racists and nationalists rather than the new immigrant. My ancestors emigrated here and I think all but the mexican and native americans did, and each group thought themselves more deserving of citizenship than the next wave.
I do not remember asking you anything. I risked this final message at you, even though you attempted degradation by calling my posting nonsensical and a waste of your time. I hope it has proved clarifying. No reply required, any and all welcome. mindy

"Blaming and otherness fuel your world"? I have no idea what that means.

If YOU stand in a long line at the grocery store, and you see others ALLOWED to cut in front of you, then WHAT will you do? When you ask the checker what the hell is going on, repeatedly, and they always ignore you, what will you do? When the establishment rules are for you to stand in line and wait your turn, but the rule followers are ignored by that very establishment, what will you do?

But your long, rambling letter with so many incorrect assumptions and lies about how I see the world can not be answered in totality, in part because I can't understand it and also because it's just too nonsensical to waste my time on.

[Reportanddeport]

It's not your KNOWLEDGE of a topic that matters to you, it's your FEELINGS about it that give you self-validation. Irrelevant nonsense is OK, as long as you FEEL GOOD ABOUT IT.

When in line at the grocery store and I am cut in on in line, I have a plethora of choices of my actions and thoughts with which to respond. Initially probably thoughts of annoyance or the value of my time might pass through my mind. Hopefully, before I opened my mouth to say anything, I would remember times that I had been in a hurry and asked to go ahead and was grateful my request was honored. There are times I am not in a hurry and I can silently thank the person for keeping me in line just that moment longer enough to avoid an accident or enable a meeting with a friend that other wise might have been missed. It can be an opportunity to observe human behavior in that incident. I could be practicing staying open and expansive vs, tense and angry and been granted a gift. I could be hate filled for the rule breakers and apparent authorities, or I could step back and understand. I could leave, never to shop there again, or I could come back later. I could choose less busy times and/or decide to avoid that checker in the future. I hope that helps clear up my position. In the prior rambling note to you I had been repeating what I thought you had meant, in an attempt to understand you. By "blaming" I was referring to your anger with undocumented folk from other countries as if it was them responsible for your problems, admittedly astoundingly frustrating, with ins. Otherness means looking at someone of another nationality and feeling very different, rather than like a fellow traveler on the road of life. I hope this is more clear. When younger I was more angry like you, but angry with the racists and nationalists rather than the new immigrant. My ancestors emigrated here and I think all but the mexican and native americans did, and each group thought themselves more deserving of citizenship than the next wave.
I do not remember asking you anything. I risked this final message at you, even though you attempted degradation by calling my posting nonsensical and a waste of your time. I hope it has proved clarifying. No reply required, any and all welcome. mindy

[MsTerry]

I don't know where you're coming from.

I have noticed that in most of your reply's.
Do you really think everybody is wrong?
So far, your solutions don't seem to be very effective, do you think it is possible that maybe you are too angry to hear how people are trying to help you?

[OrchardDweller]

Make sure you watch the video till the very end

https://www.aztlan.net/anchor_baby_power.htm

[Valley Oak]

I'm really scared that the Mexicans are taking over our country. Instead of shipping them back with their 'anchor babies,' we should simply start ethnic cleansing like Hitler did with the Jews.

Edward

Make sure you watch the video till the very end

https://www.aztlan.net/anchor_baby_power.htm

[Reportanddeport]

Yes, OF COURSE they're wrong. You either want a legal, orderly immigration process designed to protect the citizens of the receiving country, or you want illegal, disorganized immigration which allows in unknown people and drugs and weapons and criminals.

Whyyyyyyy have immigration laws or ANY law for that matter if you're free to break it at any time? WHAT WOULD BE THE POINT?

Help me out? I've seen almost nothing but people here calling me a "racist" and "angry". I've never expected help from anybody here. I have explained what has happened for the good of the country. I can't make you care about anything, I can only inform you.

I have noticed that in most of your reply's.
Do you really think everybody is wrong?
So far, your solutions don't seem to be very effective, do you think it is possible that maybe you are too angry to hear how people are trying to help you?

[Valley Oak]

I propose that we all put Mr. 'Report & Deport' on our ignore lists. I'm doing so now.

Zeig Heil, R&D!

Edward

[MsTerry]

]Yes, OF COURSE they're wrong. You either want a legal, orderly immigration process designed to protect the citizens of the receiving country, or you want illegal, disorganized immigration which allows in unknown people and drugs and weapons and criminals.

So your point is that if we build a wall along the Mexicxan/American border, in one big swoop we can stop all crime, drugs and weapons?

Whyyyyyyy have immigration laws or ANY law for that matter if you're free to break it at any time? WHAT WOULD BE THE POINT?

Just because we have laws, that doesn't mean the laws are just.
You can ask black people or women what that means if you don't get it.
Or you can look at your own life

Help me out? I've seen almost nothing but people here calling me a "racist" and "angry". I've never expected help from anybody here. I have explained what has happened for the good of the country. I can't make you care about anything, I can only inform you.

[/quote]
You need to help me out too, so what do you think would be good for the country? I mean, who is going to do the work? You? Or are we going to import food from China too?