Vitamin E supplements increase lung cancer risk

[Braggi]

https://www.buzzle.com/articles/181268.html

Yet another study shooting down the idea that taking vitamin pills is a good idea.

Save your money! Stop the bad drug habit.

Here's the real wisdom of the article summed up in the last two paragraphs:

... "Research repeatedly shows that a healthy, balanced diet can reduce your risk of some cancers while giving you all the vitamins you need. And quitting smoking remains the most effective way to avoid many cancers. There's no diet or vitamin supplement that could ever counter the toxic effects of cigarette smoke."

... "Supplements do not substitute for a healthy diet, although some people may be advised to take them at certain times in their lives. For example, doctors may advise women who are planning to have a baby to take a daily 400-microgram supplement of folic acid. And dark-skinned or elderly people may need to take vitamin D supplements since they need more sun exposure than other people to make enough vitamin D."

For those who are thinking about folic acid supplements remember this: folic acid comes from foliage. Eat lots of fresh plants and you'll have more folic acid than your body needs. It's possible to get folic acid poisoning. Just eat a big spinach salad every day and you're likely to wind up in the emergency room. If you eat lots of plants you have no need for supplements. Vitamin D same way. Eat plants and take a walk after lunch in the great outdoors.

We live in paradise on Earth. Enjoy it!

-Jeff

[nicofrog]

Dude;
Where is the "e "
you said there was a problem with vit. e, then failed to mention it in your rather unscientific sounding bit against vitamins.
There happen to be mountains of evidence, publishings from Linus Pauling on down that I tend to trust more than your passionate Naturalist
approach. I am a Naturalist to, but its important to note that
VITAMINS ARE FOOD not drugs, they are sometimes synthesized, and made by drug co's. but they are simply parts of food.
with the possible exception of vitamin "a" ,most vitamins pass right through with little or no effect whatsoever. I have taken way more than the recommended dose of many vitamins for 30 years , and I enjoy exceptionally good health,laugh at "flues" and control herpes for years at a time with their help. My mother fought"you have a year to live"cancer with vitamins for for forty years.Sure, it may have been placebo effect! but so what ,it worked! she believed in herself and her food,and it fed her well.
I also am a Vegetable-arien I eat more vegetables than my vegan friends who seem to subside on things like peanut butter,wheat and quinoa. overcooked and spiced vegetables (and really bad cookies) .
The Spinach example you give would probably NOT be a Folic acid problem as much as oxalic acid overdose, I don't think raw spinach is a good idea as oxalic acid blocks the uptake of minerals. true of raw kale and beets as well.
If we eat just table salt, or cloves etc. we die as well, heck no matter what we eat we will hopefully die eventually! Lets all eat 20 lbs. of carrots a day and turn yellow!
Anyway it's true and amazing that we live in a luxury life where we can choose so many foods,organic/non organic, all different nationalities!
local grown, processed,etc.!
I like that quote from ??Alstair Crowley? Jesus? the Bible???
whatever that says "Its More important what comes out of our mouth than what goes in it" If we go around saying"this is bad for you" and "that is also bad for you" it will probably create a self fulfilling prophesy where life may be pretty "bad for you" there may be Lyme disease ticks on every bush,mice will all have hantavirus, and the walls could come tumbling down.
Then again ..how about this amazing spring weather! and those little
flowers on top of the broccoli,kale!,raddish,and wild mustard ...yum yum yum Just eatum up!
Nicofrog

https://www.buzzle.com/articles/181268.html

Yet another study shooting down the idea that taking vitamin pills is a good idea.

Save your money! Stop the bad drug habit.

Here's the real wisdom of the article summed up in the last two paragraphs:

... "Research repeatedly shows that a healthy, balanced diet can reduce your risk of some cancers while giving you all the vitamins you need. And quitting smoking remains the most effective way to avoid many cancers. There's no diet or vitamin supplement that could ever counter the toxic effects of cigarette smoke."

... "Supplements do not substitute for a healthy diet, although some people may be advised to take them at certain times in their lives. For example, doctors may advise women who are planning to have a baby to take a daily 400-microgram supplement of folic acid. And dark-skinned or elderly people may need to take vitamin D supplements since they need more sun exposure than other people to make enough vitamin D."

For those who are thinking about folic acid supplements remember this: folic acid comes from foliage. Eat lots of fresh plants and you'll have more folic acid than your body needs. It's possible to get folic acid poisoning. Just eat a big spinach salad every day and you're likely to wind up in the emergency room. If you eat lots of plants you have no need for supplements. Vitamin D same way. Eat plants and take a walk after lunch in the great outdoors.

We live in paradise on Earth. Enjoy it!

-Jeff

[Braggi]

Dude;
Where is the "e "
you said there was a problem with vit. e, then failed to mention it in your rather unscientific sounding bit against vitamins.
...

The article is linked. Click the link ...

...
There happen to be mountains of evidence, publishings from Linus Pauling on down that I tend to trust more than your passionate Naturalist
approach. ...

But Linus Pauling was wrong. We've known that for decades. Study up. Get current.

... I am a Naturalist to, but its important to note that VITAMINS ARE FOOD not drugs, they are sometimes synthesized, and made by drug co's. but they are simply parts of food.
...

What is being proven over and over in recent studies (recent, Nico) is that vitamin pills always, and necessarily, leave out a great many substances that Nature intended us to consume all together. Yes, vitamins are food as long as they are included in the food we eat. That's why whole grains are better for us than "degermed and enriched" grain products. But you knew that. You just don't apply it to the rest of your diet.

...
with the possible exception of vitamin "a" ,most vitamins pass right through with little or no effect whatsoever. I have taken way more than the recommended dose of many vitamins for 30 years , and I enjoy exceptionally good health...

Nico, that's quite a statement for someone who teaches others how to avoid polluting water. "Supplements" are one of the major sources of water pollution right now. Unnecessary prescription drugs are another. As a culture we really need to review our drug habits both prescription and nonprescription.

It's also worth noting that I also enjoy exceptionally good health and I take no supplements. Just goes to show that anecdotal stories are almost meaningless in the face of studies that cover thousands of people.

... "Its More important what comes out of our mouth than what goes in it" If we go around saying "this is bad for you" and "that is also bad for you" it will probably create a self fulfilling prophesy where life may be pretty "bad for you" ...

The whole story of "supplements" is an issue for me personally because I know so many really poor people who have cabinets full of snake oil and nonsense they've spent their meager life savings on. These poor folks impoverish themselves while enriching dope pushers at "health food" stores and websites who drive luxury cars and live in mansions and, as in the case of Airborne, occasionally pay a few millions in fines for illegally pedaling their trash to unsuspecting victims. The bottom line is the victims are no more healthy but they do pollute the water every time they excrete.

Imagine how much less pollution there would be if we, as a culture, didn't have to produce all those billions of plastic bottles the snake oil is packaged in. Just stopping the printing of all those brochures filled with lies would save millions of trees and tons of toxic inks every year.

But it's a religion. Those who cling to their "supplements" "believe" they are healthier because of them. It's pretty hard to open the mind of a true believer.

I'll keep posting results of recent studies just in case there are any sitting on the fence who really are interested in maximizing their health while getting the best value for their money.

I agree Nico. We need to take to take the time to smell the flowers and eat a few now and then too.

-Jeff

[decterlove]

The whole story of "supplements" is an issue for me personally because I know so many really poor people who have cabinets full of snake oil and nonsense they've spent their meager life savings on. The bottom line is the victims are no more healthy but they do pollute the water every time they excrete.
-Jeff

Well, Jeff...this at least gives up a clue to the emotional content you bring to this arena. Your bias clearly has some sort of experiential emotional basis. Very much like Dr. Dean Edell, who while otherwise is one of the most rational voices out there in the medical field, goes on a daily rampage against supplements that is completely irrational and extremist. Dr. Dean, apparently feels some guilt over the fact that his family of origin manufactured vitamins and made a good deal of money.


But Dr. Dean, who lives in China Camp by the way, failed to even know on one of his recent programs that ginger is a blood thinner much like garlic and was rampaging against health food clerks in the very same program who probably were quite aware of that simple fact. And then he recommends magnesium in the form of epsoms salts as a very simple remedy for some eye problem I believe.

I am one of those who has spent probably too much for supplements over the course of my adult life. But my health now is pretty darn good at 56 and I have better energy overall than I did in my twenties. I have zero digestive problems but do need to take enzymes/hcl if I eat a hearty meal, especially high fat/high protein. I bike almost daily and and my knees, back, and joints are holding up pretty well in spite of problems in the past. If I take my preferred supplements and of course, regulate my diet as carefully as I can. I have a good friend that is not into supplements at all and just takes a little c and e he gets at Costco. He loves to play volleyball and is in his mid-sixties. Last year he started having problems with an ankle, after a few months got on msm, and presto....ankle problems gone!

Check out a good feed store locally and see all the supplements (msm included) that people use for their horses!

I watched had a roommate 5 years ago about the same age and watched his health go straight down the tubes as he started taking a prevpak for his heartburn (often caused by too little stomach acid rather than too much....food sits in the stomach too long and most people over 40 begin to produce less hcl naturally...) and cortisol for his knee pain.

Many people who are basically healthy, have good constitutions, healthy digestion, etc...simply can't appreciate how difficult it is for others of us who deal with a constant barage of mild to moderate health related problems, especially insidious ones like CFS. I KNOW what it's like to feel "normal" because I had very normal health, appetite, tolerance for various foods, etc all through my adolescence. But many people have no idea what it's like TO FEEL SICK ALL THE TIME and to deal with an issue like chronic fatigue.

For every ten supplements you try, probably nine do not contribute anything significantly overall to your physical health or well being. But that one out of ten can be life-saving in my experience. I would have given up long ago without the benefits of the supplements i have found useful in my adult life...especially the ones that have helped me overcome my tendency to chronic fatigue.

If money is tight and I can't afford a least a few key ones, my energy suffers greatly and I am prone to depression. Sometimes, I'll actually forget the connection and suddenly remember, oh yeah, I'd better get some good quality ginseng again or some cordyceps, or some magnesium....and within minutes after taking my energy is often restored.

That said, Jeff is probably right about the study he quotes about vitamin e. The body is COMPLEX! Vitamin e is a powerful antioxidant and even in studies where it may actually increase the rate of one disease (lung cancer) it may simultaneously be decreasing the likelihood of those participants dying of heart disease. There is still room for controversy regarding this vitamin, and all antioxidants run through a complex cycle in the body of actually becoming pro-oxidants at various stages of their metabolization. Vitamin C actually helps return the pro-oxidant stage of vitamin e back into a beneficial antioxidant. Lipoic acid help both recycle through varying metabolic steps. Beta carotene was shown to slightly increase the likelihood of lung cancer in smokers, but not in non-smokers!

Scientific studies are very odd ducks to begin and quite often come up with completely contradictory conclusions over the course of just a few years. Recently a study (Dr.Dean quoted...) apparently found that women who eat a high animal protein diet are less prone to breast cancer it was, I believe. This reversed previous findings. Scientists are constantly reversing themselves on these issues, but what I believe must be held sacred is the consumers right to choose for themselves in matters regarding their public health.

German doctors apparently prescribe many herbs and vitamins in their daily practices and patients are given a choice whether they would prefer a nature based remedy like St.Johnswort, or a purely synthetic one. But many European Union citizens have lost their rights to purchase these items directly on the retail level. Which maybe is a good thing in a way, or maybe a bad thing.

The is reason to cautious with vitamin e, beta carotene (but only if you are a smoker), possibly zinc and certainly selenium in very high doses, and fat soluble vitamins like vitamin A and D. But vitamins for the most part are vastly less problematic less than simple pharmaceuticals like tylenol and aspirin. Likewise there are very few herbs that one has to be cautious about; lobelia, wormwood, rue, some species of comfrey, maybe kava kava in some instances, and maybe a handful of others that are available in most commercial avenues. But I've tried every herb I've come across at the retail level, at one time or another, in the last 35 years and can't recall a single adverse reaction.

And finally your economic argument Jeff, probably has some good basis for your antagonistic attitude for supplement use but some of us just like to spend money on things that interest us. And in terms of real quality supplements out there.....the results can be quite delightful.....and the cheap stuff..........well, it's like buying car parts at Kragen's.

Water pollution? Come on, Jeff....compared to all the other crap that floats down the streams included very toxic pharmaceutical products...vitamins are probably the only thing keeping the fish alive these days.

[Braggi]

... Likewise there are very few herbs that one has to be cautious about; lobelia, wormwood, rue, some species of comfrey, maybe kava kava in some instances, and maybe a handful of others that are available in most commercial avenues....

Don't be dissin' my wormwood. Me and wormwood have a close personal relationship and it's all good.

...
And finally your economic argument Jeff, probably has some good basis for your antagonistic attitude for supplement use but some of us just like to spend money on things that interest us. And in terms of real quality supplements out there.....the results can be quite delightful.....and the cheap stuff..........well, it's like buying car parts at Kragen's.
...

Many of the parts Kragen's sells are quite good. Some, as you may have experienced, are not. I prefer Kragen's batteries to Costco's, for instance.

I just want folks to investigate a bit before hurting themselves financially to take something they haven't even looked into as far as efficaciousness (Gods, the spell checker let that through?) and safety.

I agree that most supplements are safe in reasonable doses. But a lot of folks take more than a reasonable dose. Some good ... more better. In nutrition and medicine, things usually don't work that way. Megadosing on vitamins is stupid and dangerous. There is no health condition that is treated by the medical profession this way. There are reasons for that.

...
Water pollution? Come on, Jeff....compared to all the other crap that floats down the streams included very toxic pharmaceutical products...vitamins are probably the only thing keeping the fish alive these days.

Perhaps you're right. But it's the Prozac that keeps them sane.


Overall, a very good post, Snake Friend. My wife actually gets a great deal of good out of microlactin as far as joint pain is concerned, FWIW. She hasn't tried MSM.

I'm actually not against taking supplements if they are focused on a particular issue and known to be effective for at least a significant percentage of the population. And I'm not against trying something as a "last resort" when other, more recognized methods have failed.

However, vitamin pills are showing in study after study to either do no good at all or to actually cause some harm. I think the message is getting clearer all the time: as Jethro Kloss taught: "What this nation needs is a few less doctors and a lot more good cooks."

-Jeff

[decterlove]

Maybe we're on the same page after all, Mr. Braggi, just different paragraphs. I knew my mentioning of wormwood would get your attention! lol...

Next picnic, I'm going to buy some of your magic elixir. I've shopped at Kragen, too...Jethro Kloss, 1971, Back to Eden, was where I began my study "useful" weeds.

Don't be dissin' my wormwood. Me and wormwood have a close personal relationship and it's all good. Jethro Kloss taught: "What this nation needs is a few less doctors and a lot more good cooks."

-Jeff

[alanora]

Too much raw spinach can be a problem with vitamin k and clotting times if I recall. People on blood thinners are required to have a stable intake of all fresh vegetables so that their medication can be monitored and the rate of blood thinners required will be more steady...ideally striking that delicate balance between stroking out and bleeding out........mindy oh yes and oxalic acid can make stones......

Dude;
Where is the "e "
you said there was a problem with vit. e, then failed to mention it in your rather unscientific sounding bit against vitamins.
There happen to be mountains of evidence, publishings from Linus Pauling on down that I tend to trust more than your passionate Naturalist
approach. I am a Naturalist to, but its important to note that
VITAMINS ARE FOOD not drugs, they are sometimes synthesized, and made by drug co's. but they are simply parts of food.
with the possible exception of vitamin "a" ,most vitamins pass right through with little or no effect whatsoever. I have taken way more than the recommended dose of many vitamins for 30 years , and I enjoy exceptionally good health,laugh at "flues" and control herpes for years at a time with their help. My mother fought"you have a year to live"cancer with vitamins for for forty years.Sure, it may have been placebo effect! but so what ,it worked! she believed in herself and her food,and it fed her well.
I also am a Vegetable-arien I eat more vegetables than my vegan friends who seem to subside on things like peanut butter,wheat and quinoa. overcooked and spiced vegetables (and really bad cookies) .
The Spinach example you give would probably NOT be a Folic acid problem as much as oxalic acid overdose, I don't think raw spinach is a good idea as oxalic acid blocks the uptake of minerals. true of raw kale and beets as well.
If we eat just table salt, or cloves etc. we die as well, heck no matter what we eat we will hopefully die eventually! Lets all eat 20 lbs. of carrots a day and turn yellow!
Anyway it's true and amazing that we live in a luxury life where we can choose so many foods,organic/non organic, all different nationalities!
local grown, processed,etc.!
I like that quote from ??Alstair Crowley? Jesus? the Bible???
whatever that says "Its More important what comes out of our mouth than what goes in it" If we go around saying"this is bad for you" and "that is also bad for you" it will probably create a self fulfilling prophesy where life may be pretty "bad for you" there may be Lyme disease ticks on every bush,mice will all have hantavirus, and the walls could come tumbling down.
Then again ..how about this amazing spring weather! and those little
flowers on top of the broccoli,kale!,raddish,and wild mustard ...yum yum yum Just eatum up!
Nicofrog

[gnc sebastopol]

Jeff,

sorry I didn't get a chance to respond earlier. I have been busy driving around town in my luxury vehicle shopping for new furniture for my mansion.

I have been a pill pusher for over 30 years and was a sales rep for some of time calling on the 'health food stores', and I saw very few luxury vehicles or snake oil salesmen. Most of the people I met were selling pills because they believed in them. You may disagree with their belief, but it is unfair to disparage their character. There is a blossoming business of multilevel companies, which another issue that I am not familiar with.

I can assure that I am not getting rich, and I am in this business because I have experience with the healing properties of herbs and vitamins.


It is very compasionate of you to worry about your friends who spend money in way that you don't approve of.....

gotta go check on my polo pony..

Kathleen




The whole story of "supplements" is an issue for me personally because I know so many really poor people who have cabinets full of snake oil and nonsense they've spent their meager life savings on. These poor folks impoverish themselves while enriching dope pushers at "health food" stores and websites who drive luxury cars and live in mansions and, as in the case of Airborne, occasionally pay a few millions in fines for illegally pedaling their trash to unsuspecting victims. The bottom line is the victims are no more healthy but they do pollute the water every time they excrete.

[Braggi]

Jeff,

sorry I didn't get a chance to respond earlier. I have been busy driving around town in my luxury vehicle shopping for new furniture for my mansion.
...

I won't worry too much about GNC.

https://dealbook.blogs.nytimes.com/2...ands-over-gnc/
Apollo Hands Over GNC

February 12, 2007, 7:48 am
GNC, the leading retailer of vitamins and nutrition products, agreed to be acquired by Ares Management and the Ontario Teachers’ Pension Plan in a deal with a total enterprise value of $1.65 billion. In a statement on Friday, Ares and Ontario said Apollo Management, which owns about 97 percent of GNC’s common stock and controls all of the voting rights, approved the transaction. [end quote]

Enterprise value of $1.65 billion. I'd say someone in your organization is driving nice cars and living the plush life. I'd guess thoroughbreds rather than polo ponies. In fact, they probably own the racetrack. Maybe a chain of them.


Call Ares and let them know you deserve a raise.

Kathleen, I have little doubt that a lot of people in the industry "believe" in what they're doing. I don't doubt their sincerity. I doubt their education though. They may be well versed in the propaganda of the industry, but few are skeptical enough to actually look into valid, peer reviewed studies and keep up with current studies as they are published. I'd be impressed to learn a majority of GNC employees know what a peer reviewed medical journal article is. Perhaps you could share with us how your employees are trained about what they sell.


There are true charlatans in this business in addition to the well meaning workers you see on a daily basis. They advertise on the radio and they make millions of dollars with very little investment. You've heard them and you probably cringe as I do at the sound of the ads promoting weight loss, extra energy, acne cures, baldness remedies, improved memory, better eyesight and on and on. They stay in business for a few years and then get shut down by the FTC or some other august body of government that would do better to react more quickly. Airborne comes to mind. These folks make lots and lots of money, wind up paying a few million in fines, and then open up a new company a few months later doing something similar. Those folks get rich. So do the people in the "multi level marketing" scams. At least the ones at the top do.


You should know that I'm not against using herbs for healing. I'm an herbalist. Some folks reading this could testify to my skills. I teach workshops on the use of aphrodisiacs and could teach your employees a few things about some of the items they feature on your shelves.

I'm not against using herbal medicine as long as the herbs in question have proven safe and effective. Sadly, many of them have not. I've even toyed with the idea of starting an herbal business. I just couldn't sell many items in good conscience.

I still owe you one, though. And I do appreciate your sense of humor.



-Jeff

[nicofrog]

Well right you are Jeff!
I forgot to click! I guess I really am not worried about lung cancer! Or any other cancer for that matter,just another way to keep us humans from staying around for ever,We're really way to addicted to long life!
My excreta,however goes mostly directly into mother earth(through composting systems)Hopefully all of our Liquid waste will be managed locally in the next 20 years or so.If you want to alarm people, don't forget to tell them that ALL LIQUIDS accepting water and milk are considered toxic waste,need to be used up, or disposed of correctly.or taken to toxic waste facilities.
It is insane to flush anything into the bay or water-table,the worst pollutant on earth is Chlorine,it was clearly established
as the principal cause of ozone depletion in 1986 or so(( look up Adam Trombly,the meteorologist who worked with Buckminster fuller on creating the first computer models of world overpopulation-ozone depletion and potential global warming))He was a govt. scientist who was immediately
fired and went in to exile due to death threats etc.(he was also the one who first discovered that ozone depletion existed) The chlorine industry is
surprisingly huge and powerful . every water system and sewage system in the world "needs" chlorine. even the all knowledgeable Al Gore dares not mention this piece.
So all the "Snake oil" ranting is really just for dramatic effect!, and like with anything else, moderation and intelligent review is probably the best policy.
I see it a little more like Dexter,and I respect the protective space you come from! APHRODESIACS !! Now we're talking why didn't you start out with that, way more interesting than vitamins! do you have any raps up about THAT? Also Herbs ROCK, I actually like all the natural super-foods and use them way more often than vitamins.
I have been more broke than anyone you ever met all my life and I don't consider vitamins expensive,I often get them for free, and my rich friends give me LOTS of other fancy stuff.Every fancy electronic gadget needs replacing every 8 months or so,so as I see it they are free.
very lightly steamed KALE with carrots,other vegetables all brassicas
salads, beans and tortillas chilies and garlic! thats my recipe for happy
life.mmmmm nice day huh!
Nico

I won't worry too much about GNC.

https://dealbook.blogs.nytimes.com/2...ands-over-gnc/
Apollo Hands Over GNC

February 12, 2007, 7:48 am
GNC, the leading retailer of vitamins and nutrition products, agreed to be acquired by Ares Management and the Ontario Teachers’ Pension Plan in a deal with a total enterprise value of $1.65 billion. In a statement on Friday, Ares and Ontario said Apollo Management, which owns about 97 percent of GNC’s common stock and controls all of the voting rights, approved the transaction. [end quote]

Enterprise value of $1.65 billion. I'd say someone in your organization is driving nice cars and living the plush life. I'd guess thoroughbreds rather than polo ponies. In fact, they probably own the racetrack. Maybe a chain of them.


Call Ares and let them know you deserve a raise.

Kathleen, I have little doubt that a lot of people in the industry "believe" in what they're doing. I don't doubt their sincerity. I doubt their education though. They may be well versed in the propaganda of the industry, but few are skeptical enough to actually look into valid, peer reviewed studies and keep up with current studies as they are published. I'd be impressed to learn a majority of GNC employees know what a peer reviewed medical journal article is. Perhaps you could share with us how your employees are trained about what they sell.


There are true charlatans in this business in addition to the well meaning workers you see on a daily basis. They advertise on the radio and they make millions of dollars with very little investment. You've heard them and you probably cringe as I do at the sound of the ads promoting weight loss, extra energy, acne cures, baldness remedies, improved memory, better eyesight and on and on. They stay in business for a few years and then get shut down by the FTC or some other august body of government that would do better to react more quickly. Airborne comes to mind. These folks make lots and lots of money, wind up paying a few million in fines, and then open up a new company a few months later doing something similar. Those folks get rich. So do the people in the "multi level marketing" scams. At least the ones at the top do.


You should know that I'm not against using herbs for healing. I'm an herbalist. Some folks reading this could testify to my skills. I teach workshops on the use of aphrodisiacs and could teach your employees a few things about some of the items they feature on your shelves.

I'm not against using herbal medicine as long as the herbs in question have proven safe and effective. Sadly, many of them have not. I've even toyed with the idea of starting an herbal business. I just couldn't sell many items in good conscience.

I still owe you one, though. And I do appreciate your sense of humor.



-Jeff