The politics of selling animals? was where to post critters for sale

[Deb]

Deb here...looking for some feedback.

Would you all like to see posts for pets for sale in this category (Pets and Other Critters) OR in the For Sale category. I am helping Barry with the moderating and was stumped with the "Arabian horses for sale" post.

Thanks to Wildflower for speaking to the double post.

Blessings,
Deb

[Moon]

I'd really rather not see Wacco used at all as a place to sell sapient beings. True, when someone can't keep a horse any more, they may have so much invested that they'd like to get, say, half of it back, but with so many dogs and cats available for free, there's no excuse for investing beyond food and vet care. If you really want to post such messages, i respectfully request that you do just one thing for me first: Volunteer for two weeks at your local shelter, early in the morning before work, holding the unadopted animals while
they're given their lethal injections.

Deb here...looking for some feedback.

Would you all like to see posts for pets for sale in this category (Pets and Other Critters) OR in the For Sale category. I am helping Barry with the moderating and was stumped with the "Arabian horses for sale" post.

Thanks to Wildflower for speaking to the double post.

Blessings,
Deb

[petermargolies]

Moon makes a good point and I wholeheartedly agree with what she says, however there are many other reasons to be listing critters of one sort or another, especially in an agriculture area like Sonoma County. There are 4H projects that involve, many types of animals, and there are working dogs that aren't likely to be found in animal shelters, to mention just a couple.
My sister-in-law used to raise angora rabbits for the fur. She didn't kill them, she brushed them and spun what she gathered to make all sorts of knitted angora stuff.
Dogs and cats in shelters are awful to contemplate, but not a reason to drop Barry's idea from consideration.

I'd really rather not see Wacco used at all as a place to sell sapient beings. True, when someone can't keep a horse any more, they may have so much invested that they'd like to get, say, half of it back, but with so many dogs and cats available for free, there's no excuse for investing beyond food and vet care. If you really want to post such messages, i respectfully request that you do just one thing for me first: Volunteer for two weeks at your local shelter, early in the morning before work, holding the unadopted animals while
they're given their lethal injections.

[helenscott08]

I DEFINITELY believe it should still be in the pets and critters. AS TO WHY SELL AN ANIMAL, see my posting for a cat that I have posted as FOR SALE. Many legitimate reasons why animals are in need of new loving homes. AND, FROM What I have heard and seen for myself, very often if you GIVE AN ANIMAL AWAY, the owners do not respect it and will again abandon it when it starts costing them money. IF you have to pay for it most people will do more to care for the animal. IT IS JUST A BIT OF INSURANCE. And, as you can see no one is making a profit from the sale.
The money can go to a very worthy animal rescue organization. A WIN WIN SITUATION, I would say.

helen s

Deb here...looking for some feedback.

Would you all like to see posts for pets for sale in this category (Pets and Other Critters) OR in the For Sale category. I am helping Barry with the moderating and was stumped with the "Arabian horses for sale" post.

Thanks to Wildflower for speaking to the double post.

Blessings,
Deb

[Moon]

Yeah, that's a very good point; if you ask a price--say, $25-50--that amounts to an adoption fee, great. I just wouldn't want to see wacco
used by people who intentionally cause more cats or dogs to be born
and want $100-300 a pop for taking part in slave trade. Just to give
you an idea of the atrocities some breeders (not, one hopes, any who
call themselves "politically progressive") get into: If the breeder wants
to combine two particular lines, and the female doesn't like the male,
instead of spending the money on artificial insemination, s/he'll find
a vet who's willing to bring about a "forced breeding" (and i think this
ought to be grounds for yanking the vet's license.) When the female
comes into heat, the vet gives her enough sedative to leave her conscious (since the male won't mount an inert female, no matter how she smells) of being raped but too out of it to defend herself. If you're new to an area
and want to find a vet who really cares about his/her patients, call around and ask whether they declaw cats and whether they do forced breedings--then go to one who says No and No.

I DEFINITELY believe it should still be in the pets and critters. AS TO WHY SELL AN ANIMAL, see my posting for a cat that I have posted as FOR SALE. Many legitimate reasons why animals are in need of new loving homes. AND, FROM What I have heard and seen for myself, very often if you GIVE AN ANIMAL AWAY, the owners do not respect it and will again abandon it when it starts costing them money. IF you have to pay for it most people will do more to care for the animal. IT IS JUST A BIT OF INSURANCE. And, as you can see no one is making a profit from the sale.
The money can go to a very worthy animal rescue organization. A WIN WIN SITUATION, I would say.

helen s

[helenscott08]

I forgot to add another very good reason for SELLING AN ANIMAL. That is to keep it out of the hands of people who go around getting the FREE animals for labs and other horrible practices, such as bait for fighting dogs, and the latest I have seen here on this board, using dogs and cats as bait for sharks!!!! I don't think any animal should be sold for LESS THAN $50, and more if possible. Many people even today don't think a thing about loosing $50 but would think a bit more at $100. And, the animal rescue organizations certainly can use the money.

helen

Yeah, that's a very good point; if you ask a price--say, $25-50--that amounts to an adoption fee, great. I just wouldn't want to see wacco
used by people who intentionally cause more cats or dogs to be born
and want $100-300 a pop for taking part in slave trade. Just to give
you an idea of the atrocities some breeders (not, one hopes, any who
call themselves "politically progressive") get into: If the breeder wants
to combine two particular lines, and the female doesn't like the male,
instead of spending the money on artificial insemination, s/he'll find
a vet who's willing to bring about a "forced breeding" (and i think this
ought to be grounds for yanking the vet's license.) When the female
comes into heat, the vet gives her enough sedative to leave her conscious (since the male won't mount an inert female, no matter how she smells) of being raped but too out of it to defend herself. If you're new to an area
and want to find a vet who really cares about his/her patients, call around and ask whether they declaw cats and whether they do forced breedings--then go to one who says No and No.

[Deb]

Wow, You guys tweek my mind. Your anwswers weren't really what I was looking for (here or there) but definitely thought provoking.
Thanks for your input,
Deb

[psaltz]

> Yeah, that's a very good point; if you ask a price--say, $25-50--that
> amounts to an adoption fee, great.

You must not have been to the pound lately...We paid the pound $123 for our Molly in January 2004...

A purchased animal is one less animal for the pound or for abusers...I say let's give them away if we can, and sell them cheap if not. After all, you'd pay a hospital, doctor or midwife to help bring a child out of the womb into the world...

I say post them in "Pets & Other Critters" - that's what they are - if it's offensive, use your scroll bar and move on.

Just my humble opinion...

[Moon]

> Yeah, that's a very good point; if you ask a price--say, $25-50--that
> amounts to an adoption fee, great.
You must not have been to the pound lately...We paid the pound $123 for our Molly in January 2004...

The shelter's adoption fee includes neutering and other goodies.

A purchased animal is one less animal for the pound or for abusers...I say let's give them away if we can, and sell them cheap if not. After all, you'd pay a hospital, doctor or midwife to help bring a child out of the womb into the world...
I say post them in "Pets & Other Critters" - that's what they are - if it's offensive, use your scroll bar and move on.
Just my humble opinion...

A purchased animal is one more animal for the pound or for abusers. I hope you'll go back and look at my original posting, in which i responded to all
the arguments i've heard from breeders, but i'll cover this one again here. One thing people who, on purpose, cause more dogs or cats to be born say
is, "Every member of the litter has a home waiting." The thing is that each one who's sold is one more who won't be adopted from the shelter, and thus euthanized. It's not a question of offending me--it's a question of cutting short the lives of more dogs and cats who came into the world because
their greatx ["great to the x"] grandparents were abandoned by jerks, about whom we can do nothing immediately. We who subscribe to wacco are not TV-brained jerks; we're both willing and able to reason about what's the most helpful action for everyone involved in any given situation. (And no, before anyone even asks, i am not calling anyone on this service a jerk.) We don't need to provide professional breeders free-of-charge access to one more audience. If Rover and Tabitha will pardon my putting words in their mouths:
"Let my people go!"

[JollyJane]

Hi Deb
There are things I would post on here that do not have an appropriate forum, such as making arrangements to garden, farm or even raise or share animals as well as vegetables, in COOPERATION with each other.
My problem is basically that the forum we are using relates to a MONETARY SYSTEM of life, not a barter or work/share/sweat equity kind of system.
These non-monetary systems require a little DISCUSSION to come to terms
but how???

The other part of the difficulty in how to communicate is that some of the
posters in this category wish to control the others through their own personal beliefs, which is basically a RELIGION. THAT is illegal in our country, still !!!!
We have FREEDOM of religion. Also, it is LEGAL to raise animals for meat,
and ILLEGAL to discrimate in business practices....ie, what Wacco could
say is a business or not a business. Or if some business could advertise in
a newspaper, etc.

Thanks for being there Deb,
JJane

Wow, You guys tweek my mind. Your anwswers weren't really what I was looking for (here or there) but definitely thought provoking.
Thanks for your input,
Deb

[Sylvia]

Right on, Dian and I'm weighing in on this one, though not so eloquently.

First - might I encourage those with animals that need a different home to consider the term, "put up for adoption" vs. "sell". The connotation of "list for sale" is that of ownership/control and other similar concepts smacking of superiority.

If an animal is up for adoption and you are looking for a new Caregiver (vs. owner), you are speaking to your intent to act as steward/advocate in behalf of another soul (whose only crime is a different language and fewer legal rights).

So, back to the original post and first couple of responses. If you have an animal up for adoption, I strongly encourage that you ask for an adoption fee. This discourages people who will feed smaller animals, while still alive, to snakes or use any size animal for attack-dog training or target practice. If you are not part of a legitimate 501(c)3 animal welfare organization, heaven knows there are many, many of us out here who would happily accept that fee in donation.

Someone made the point that we should be helping each other by giving away animals and someone else suggested bartering. In my 16 years as a rescuer, I would agree to the concept of an animal moving from your care to another's without remunerative effort to safeguard the future of that animal - but only if you know the individual adopting the animal very, very well and have complete and absolute trust in him/her.

Similarly, I don't have issues with bartering as long as we are clear on the future of the animal and that the exchange actually MEANS something to the new caregiver. This is the rationale behind adoption fees - if a person invests a significant chunk of change to add a non-human companion to their lives, they are more likely to learn what to expect of the creature, to provide what the creature requires to live a full and healthy life and less likely to dump him/her the first time caring for that creature becomes inconvenient or less "fun".

In other words, in my view an adoption fee is not a capitalistic ploy to separate us from our money but instead a protective measure taken in behalf of an otherwise helpless being.

While I'm on this rant, I also want to invite those of us who have be-furred "folk" in our care who need to find a permanent family to consider writing up a simple adoption contract so that if something does not work out with the adoptive caregiver, that animal is not abandoned or dumped at a shelter but instead you are notified and given the opportunity to intervene in behalf of the animal. You can structure this contract to also require certain standards of care for the animal (for instance - that highly intelligent and social animals such as dogs and rabbits not be housed outside where they are subject to the elements, a sense of isolation and subsequently, depression; or that highly opinionated animals full of character and playfulness such as horses, dogs, cats, birds, rabbits - need I continue? - be given adequate space to walk about freely, play and otherwise enjoy being themselves if housed with others).

But I digress - our experience nationally is that the simplest adoption contract is legally binding (reply privately if you'd like to see a copy of what we do).

My personal experience is that such a document separates those who respect the animal and will act in his/her best interest from those who, given the slightest change in circumstance, will not - not to mention those who are securing the animal for their own personal gain (food, fur, protection, mousing, etc.) and therefore by definition never intended to act in the animal's best interest but only in their own.

I'll close by stating that I believe all living things are to be revered and if living half a century has taught me anything, it's that the best use of my time is helping another - human or non-human - achieve their potential.

My $.02
Sylvia

If honoring other animals by not enslaving them, using their bodies and thus their lives as if we had the right to do so is a religion, so be it. For me, it's more a matter of spirit.

I'm in basic agreement with Moon and Helen and would hate to see animals offered by breeders on this list. Right now, Craig's list is coming under fire for its animal postings.

As far as I can tell, we're posting our strongly-held opinions and why do these any more represent an attempt at controlling others' actions than the status quo, Jane? Right now, humans are pretty free to do anything they want with other animals, to the degradation of our environment, our health and our spirit.

Dian

[Sylvia]

Oh and sorry to have missed the point of Deb's question in my last post but I also think that animals up for adoption might be best listed in the "pets and critters" category and agree that breeders and others who lever the lives of animals for their own ends not be allowed to post in wacco.

Thx for your patience.
Sylvia

[SJM]

Oh my, where are you judgemental folks going to draw the line as to who you "allow" to post on WACCO? Your righteousness is embarassing.

Let people post what they want. If you find it distasteful then feel free to say so.

And feel free NOT to participate in their endeavors.

But don't take away the public nature of the bulletin board because YOU disapprove.

Please.

Oh and sorry to have missed the point of Deb's question in my last post but I also think that animals up for adoption might be best listed in the "pets and critters" category and agree that breeders and others who lever the lives of animals for their own ends not be allowed to post in wacco.

Thx for your patience.
Sylvia

[Moon]

I'm taking it upon myself to move this discussion to wacco-talk, since Barry has our input.

Oh my, where are you judgemental folks going to draw the line as to who you "allow" to post on WACCO? Your righteousness is embarassing.
Let people post what they want. If you find it distasteful then feel free to say so.
And feel free NOT to participate in their endeavors.
But don't take away the public nature of the bulletin board because YOU disapprove.
Please.

[Moon]

Oops, excuse me Deb; i ought to have said, "Barry and Deb."

I'm taking it upon myself to move this discussion to wacco-talk, since Barry has our input.

[Barry]

Hi,

Let me clear up a few things:

First, it was my friend and assistant moderator, Deb, who asked for input about where to post animals for sale, not I. I am fine with them being posted in either "For Sale/Free/Wanted" or "Pets and other Critters". I don't think we need a policy about such things other than posting to just one category.

Next, I am not going to prevent people from selling pets and other animals here. Please do not harass people from doing so.

And finally there is a "WaccoTalk" category on this website. Its just another category here. You are welcome to start a thread there (ie post) to discuss whatever you like, such as the ethics of selling animals or non-local political issues, such as the state initiatives. I may also move threads there whose subject has wandered off-topic of the category where it started or is otherwise highly active so that it becomes subject to people's subscription to the WaccoTalk category rather that the category where it started.

"Wacco-Talk" (note the dash) is a new Yahoogroup, not on WaccoBB.net, that was intended to replace the old WaccoTalk Yahoogroup. I'm told that Wacco-Talk is not used much. I encourage you to keep your conversations on WaccoBB.net. You are always welcome to reply publicly to any post if you think it is appropriate for the community at large to see it, rather than just the person you are replying to.

At any point if you want to tune out of a active thread (a "thread" is a post along with all of its replies), you can go to that thread on the website (by using the link in your email or digest) and click on "Unsubscribe from this thread". If you do so, then future replies will not be included in your digest or individual emails, but you will continue to receive all other new posts and replies to other threads in that category.

[SJM]

Barry: Thank you again and as usual for being the appropriate voice of "moderation". We are so much the poorer for hearing from you so much less frequently these days.

Hi,

Let me clear up a few things:

First, it was my friend and assistant moderator, Deb, who asked for input about where to post animals for sale, not I. I am fine with them being posted in either "For Sale/Free/Wanted" or "Pets and other Critters". I don't think we need a policy about such things other than posting to just one category.

Next, I am not going to prevent people from selling pets and other animals here. Please do not harass people from doing so.

And finally there is a "WaccoTalk" category on this website. Its just another category here. You are welcome to start a thread there (ie post) to discuss whatever you like, such as the ethics of selling animals or non-local political issues, such as the state initiatives. I may also move threads there whose subject has wandered off-topic of the category where it started or is otherwise highly active so that it becomes subject to people's subscription to the WaccoTalk category rather that the category where it started.

"Wacco-Talk" (note the dash) is a new Yahoogroup, not on WaccoBB.net, that was intended to replace the old WaccoTalk Yahoogroup. I'm told that Wacco-Talk is not used much. I encourage you to keep your conversations on WaccoBB.net. You are always welcome to reply publicly to any post if you think it is appropriate for the community at large to see it, rather than just the person you are replying to.

At any point if you want to tune out of a active thread (a "thread" is a post along with all of its replies), you can go to that thread on the website (by using the link in your email or digest) and click on "Unsubscribe from this thread". If you do so, then future replies will not be included in your digest or individual emails, but you will continue to receive all other new posts and replies to other threads in that category.

[wildflower]

I certainly don't want to see any selling or breeding of animals supported by a supposed "conscious community"! Isn't that our mission?
If you don't know about the "animal industry(raising animals for meat, breeding for sale etc)", then educate yourself. You might be shocked. You might undergo an awakening, a change of heart towards other species and the suffering they endure at our hands.
How can we as a progressive community, exclude the other species from our parameters of compassion? What mechanism causes us to draw these phony boundaries that allows this harm to continue?
I feel shocked and disappointed that some of us don't allow our supposed "ethics" to include the other species.
Should we allow sex offenders and murderers to use wacco to look for their next victim? Where do we draw the line? Where are the lines? Is there some democratic process here whereby all members preferences are considered and honored?

In "Conscious Community"
Karin Lease

[Barry]

I am slowly returning from my retreat. Thanks for welcoming me back, Susan.

Barry: Thank you again and as usual for being the appropriate voice of "moderation". We are so much the poorer for hearing from you so much less frequently these days.

[JollyJane]

Hi Barry
I agree with Susan....moderation and sanity! Thanks Barry!

What if some people joined who don't like body decorations or nude massage?
Would we allow those who like tatoos and massage or give those services to
be excluded from the community website listings?

I am NOT answering any of these emails personally, as I have spent enough
time in my life answering all these questions and no longer wish to discuss
any of it with any individual person. NO INFORMATION POSTED was new to
me, and the "Factory Farming" is the reason WHY I raised all our meat when
I was out Bodega Highway for 15 years.

I will post that I raise rabbits, but probably not til Spring.
Raising rabbits for meat is economically a BY-PRODUCT of the
great benefits of the manure for the gardens of the world.
It is not a money making situation, but an educational one for me!
My sales just about cover my feed costs!!!!!

HUMAN RIGHTS allow choice in these areas, and when
militant vegetarians try to refuse us these rights, it is
the "same old, same old" judgmental stuff /prejudice.
No amount of intellectual bantering changes that!

JJane

I am slowly returning from my retreat. Thanks for welcoming me back, Susan.

[Deb]

Let me clear up a few things:

First, it was my friend and assistant moderator, Deb, who asked for input about where to post animals for sale, not I. I am fine with them being posted in either "For Sale/Free/Wanted" or "Pets and other Critters". I don't think we need a policy about such things other than posting to just one category.

For the sake of clarity, I was not looking to create a new policy either, I was just looking for some feedback from the animal folks because there was a double post...Arabian horses for sale... posted on Pets and For Sale.

Not wanting to assume anything in the future I wanted to get some feedback from y'all in case that sort of thing happened again as we do have a general policy of no double posting.

Deb

[wildflower]

What is this about?
"and the latest I have seen here on this board, using dogs and cats as bait for sharks!!!!"

I forgot to add another very good reason for SELLING AN ANIMAL. That is to keep it out of the hands of people who go around getting the FREE animals for labs and other horrible practices, such as bait for fighting dogs, and the latest I have seen here on this board, using dogs and cats as bait for sharks!!!! I don't think any animal should be sold for LESS THAN $50, and more if possible. Many people even today don't think a thing about loosing $50 but would think a bit more at $100. And, the animal rescue organizations certainly can use the money.

helen

[Deb]

(portions removed)
I certainly don't want to see any selling or breeding of animals supported by a supposed "conscious community"! Isn't that our mission?
...How can we as a progressive community, exclude the other species from our parameters of compassion? What mechanism causes us to draw these phony boundaries that allows this harm to continue?
I feel shocked and disappointed that some of us don't allow our supposed "ethics" to include the other species.
...Where do we draw the line? Where are the lines? Is there some democratic process here whereby all members preferences are considered and honored?

In "Conscious Community"
Karin Lease

These are really good questions...

What does it mean to be in conscious community? I don't know that everyone in waccoland has signed on for that intention and for those who have I think it means different things for different people.

I think that people have varied relationships with animals and it is not our job to judge them. I do support everyone getting to know each other with respect. The chicken farmers in Petaluma, for example, have a history they are deeply embedded in. For us to stand in our rightiousness about what they do for their livelihood, in my opinion, is doing more violence.

What I would like to see is more conversation around understanding. If I can come to a person whose practices I may not agree with and try to understand where they are coming from and show respect, then maybe that person might be open to the ideas and suggestions I have to share.

If someone comes at me (and I do consider myself a conscious being) and starts attacking my ethics and integrity I may tighten up and withdraw because I feel defensive by the nature of the exchange.

I am not perfect AND I am open to expanding my consciousness, I have considered the questions of the animal industry and have NOT made the choice to become a vegetarian. I do not want to be attacked and challenged by this group. I can only take on so much at a time. I shouldn't have to appologize for that. If you took the time to get to know me and what I am up to in my life you will see that I am a good person and am doing good work and hold good space AND eat meat. (this isn't directed at Karin, she is one of the people here who knows me more than most) I use myself as an example of how I would like to see "consciousness" expressed in our community.

As for the "democracy" of wacco, we are not a group making group decisions. We are a group of people using a common service run by Barry, the benevolent dictator, who is open to our input, but can in no way please all the people all the time. I know that Barry does take everything in and some things are just not in the scope of this site. It is his line to draw, at his discretion.

As for the "mission" of wacco, I think that is Barry's work, not ours. If we agree with what he states as his intention then we stay and play, if not, we don't. I think we all have different intentions for being here and the more we can understand and accept that, the better we can get along.

Here is a question for you all. If your are against animal breeding and Barry says his intention is to NOT exclude ads from people breeding animals do you take a stand for your integrity and stop using this service? Or, do you accept and honor his position and appreciate what he IS offering and make the most of what is here?

We all have choice. I may not like anyone's specific choices, it is not for me to make them wrong for it. If I don't like their choice I can do my best to understand it, to share my views about it and to influence change. If change is not forthcoming, it is time for me to move on. The question for me is: Where and how are my unique gifts best used? Life is short and my time is valuable. I spend time here in waccoland because the conversation is rich and the connections made here are dear. It gives me an opportunity to bring my self to something that has meaning for me...my diverse community.

Thanks for considering these thoughts, too.
Blessings,
Deb

[Barry]

Has this conversation now been rerouted from Talk to waccobb.net? Because Talk is a discussion group and I'm concerned that these kind of discussions will flourish here, if this is the decision of the moderator.

This conversation is in the WaccoTalk category of Waccobb.net. Discussion on any topic is welcome here.

Barry