Ask Linda:Fantasizing about others

[Mrs. Wacco]

So a woman whose husband longed for another but never consummated the desire asks: Is it true that men fanasize about women all the time, even if they are married? I'd love to hear from the men and women out there, as this is often a deal breaker for many relationships.

Linda's take:

The short answer: yes

The long answer: I think it unrealistic to think someone, whether male or female, would never think about another in the course of a lifetime because they are married. So having some space for mental dalliances is a worthy thing. And if a relationship is very restrictive, it might even create the fertile ground for the fantasy to take hold in. Just like with teenagers, if something is denied, it becomes wanted even more because it is denied. Knowing your partner and accepting their nature in this regard is both wise and mature.

What one does with the fantasy is totally dependent on the agreement within the marriage and how one handles themself. If it becomes a distraction from the relationship or keeps someone from being present because they're always thinking of another, this can certainly be a problem and may be indicative of some bigger issue within the relationship. But if it's just fantasy, who cares? It may even be a benefit: it can be a way for someone to express/release desires safely. Or it can even bring a spark to a relationship. It's all in how you hold it.

While I love Mr Barry, it is highly unlikely that I will never think about another man. And I certainly know my beloved thinks about other women! (I know them all by name!) He wouldn't be Barry if he didn't. But we recognize this about each other so it's really a non-issue.

I'd love to hear from some other Waccos on the topic.

Linda

[Juggledude]

In the posted discussion, I became confused about the exact definitions of "fantasized","wondered","longed for", and the "lines" which were crossed. I believe that these things are not universal truths, but products of the agreements made in any particular relationship. As you point out, Dialog is key, and an open and honest dialog can set a stable foundation for a wonderful relationship, one which can even utilize the power of fantasy as a springboard to ever greater heights of ecstasy and understanding. A lack of such dialog can lead to assumptions, which can lead to pain, which can lead to attack/defend postures, an ugly downward spiral.

Do men wonder? I sure hope so! Wonder about women, wonder about life, wonder about God/Goddess, wonder about what feels good, wonder about what hurts... It is this process of wondering that leads to learning and growth... who was it who said "the unexamined life is not worth living?"

Now, actions, they are different. Each and every one of us stands wholly responsible for our own actions. If your actions are outside the bounds of a previously discussed agreement, well then you fucked up, and have some cleaning up to do. If your actions are outside the bounds of an undiscussed, assumed or projected agreement, well then your relationship could be a tad confused, and I would recommend opening an honest dialog on the subject.

Linda mentions that when the wondering takes a person out of the present, hinders the ability to "relate", it becomes a problem. So true, this is a perfect example of mental action, which is still solely the responsibility of each individual. Also reaction, anger, jealousy, fear, defensiveness, etc, are within the bounds of responsibility, though these reactions are usually deeply ingrained, hard to track and often times get blamed on the triggering stimulus, instead of owned.

Let's hear it for presence, truth, and honest complete communication!

hip hip, huzzah!

Royce

[Mrs. Wacco]

In the posted discussion, I became confused about the exact definitions of "fantasized","wondered","longed for", and the "lines" which were crossed. I believe that these things are not universal truths, but products of the agreements made in any particular relationship. As you point out, Dialog is key, and an open and honest dialog can set a stable foundation for a wonderful relationship, one which can even utilize the power of fantasy as a springboard to ever greater heights of ecstasy and understanding. A lack of such dialog can lead to assumptions, which can lead to pain, which can lead to attack/defend postures, an ugly downward spiral.

Do men wonder? I sure hope so! Wonder about women, wonder about life, wonder about God/Goddess, wonder about what feels good, wonder about what hurts... It is this process of wondering that leads to learning and growth... who was it who said "the unexamined life is not worth living?"

Now, actions, they are different. Each and every one of us stands wholly responsible for our own actions. If your actions are outside the bounds of a previously discussed agreement, well then you fucked up, and have some cleaning up to do. If your actions are outside the bounds of an undiscussed, assumed or projected agreement, well then your relationship could be a tad confused, and I would recommend opening an honest dialog on the subject.

Linda mentions that when the wondering takes a person out of the present, hinders the ability to "relate", it becomes a problem. So true, this is a perfect example of mental action, which is still solely the responsibility of each individual. Also reaction, anger, jealousy, fear, defensiveness, etc, are within the bounds of responsibility, though these reactions are usually deeply ingrained, hard to track and often times get blamed on the triggering stimulus, instead of owned.

Let's hear it for presence, truth, and honest complete communication!

hip hip, huzzah!

Royce

Royce - Thanks for your wise words. I do think there is a universal truth that men will wonder, fantasize, be distracted by other women. Maybe not all but a lot. The trouble starts when they act on those things outside the bounds of whatever agreements are made within a relationship. This is where self-responsibility comes in (I am a HUGE fan of self-responsibility!!) But I do not think you can have an agreement about fantasizing. What would that look like? "You may never be attracted to or think about another woman!" You cannot dictate what goes on in anothers mind.

I also think think the trouble starts when women think they can and choose to ask for that tho and think they'll get it. Women denying that men are made the way men are made is crazy making. Biologically men are still programmed to spread their seed far and wide. Evolutionarily, our biology has not caught up to our social conditioning. Now the case is made that men use this tidbit as an excuse to behave "badly" and not control themselves. There is truth to this as well. I say, all things in balance and moderation. I'm probably a bit more open-minded and forgiving than the average bear but guys need to be respectful of who they're with and make agreements they can keep and be cool! Looking with your tongue hanging out and drooling - not cool! (I'm speaking specifically and figuratively)

Again, it all comes back to being able to have honest dialog around the topic, be realistic about who you are and what your needs are, be real about who you're with, and make agreements which work for all parties. Women need to make it safe for men to be truthful without freaking out and men need to learn to be honest and honor their agreements and keep the "hound dog" on a leash appropriate to the relationship. But what goes on in the privacy of one's own mind - total freedom!

Linda

[Juggledude]

Royce - Thanks for your wise words. I do think there is a universal truth that men will wonder, fantasize, be distracted by other women. Maybe not all but a lot. The trouble starts when they act on those things outside the bounds of whatever agreements are made within a relationship. This is where self-responsibility comes in (I am a HUGE fan of self-responsibility!!) But I do not think you can have an agreement about fantasizing. What would that look like? "You may never be attracted to or think about another woman!" You cannot dictate what goes on in anothers mind.

I also think think the trouble starts when women think they can and choose to ask for that tho and think they'll get it. Women denying that men are made the way men are made is crazy making. Biologically men are still programmed to spread their seed far and wide. Evolutionarily, our biology has not caught up to our social conditioning. Now the case is made that men use this tidbit as an excuse to behave "badly" and not control themselves. There is truth to this as well. I say, all things in balance and moderation. I'm probably a bit more open-minded and forgiving than the average bear but guys need to be respectful of who they're with and make agreements they can keep and be cool! Looking with your tongue hanging out and drooling - not cool! (I'm speaking specifically and figuratively)

Again, it all comes back to being able to have honest dialog around the topic, be realistic about who you are and what your needs are, be real about who you're with, and make agreements which work for all parties. Women need to make it safe for men to be truthful without freaking out and men need to learn to be honest and honor their agreements and keep the "hound dog" on a leash appropriate to the relationship. But what goes on in the privacy of one's own mind - total freedom!

Linda

True, true...

when I expressed my confusion regarding the definitions of the words, I was more precisely expressing confusion about the specific "lines" which had been drawn in Conscious Person's relationship,and how the other words were being used in that context. In the more general notion of thought processes, I totally agree, thought is free, freer even than speech, and it's just plain silly to imagine circumscribing or otherwise limiting your own thoughts, let alone someone else's!

I'd like to explore further your thoughts on the differences between men and women. Truly, there are differences, and in the honoring of those differences comes much truth and pleasure. The biological imperatives you reference are certainly at work, and do play a role in influencing our social mores, yet I wonder if this concept can be taken too far. Certainly, when used as an excuse, either for a man 'spreading his seed' or a woman playing the field to find a more suitable provider, this transcends the boundaries of personal responsibility, and depending on the specific dialog, could frequently be outside of the discussed agreement.

I guess I have a vision of equality that I am trying to come to terms with in light of my understanding of the diversity between the sexes. I want to hold space for women to be truthful as well, and I'd like women to honor their agreements and keep their "dogs" on a leash as well (ooh, that could be fun!). All this while still acknowledging and celebrating the differences that make it so much fun to be together.

Royce

[Vet-To-Pet]

Simply put, if I were in a (committed) relationship with a man, I'd have to be naive to assume he wouldn't admire other women, in my presence or not. I often find myself "appreciating" a "man on the street" (grocery store, tarffic light, hardware store, etc), so I can only guess the same thing is going through a man's mind when he glances at an attractive woman. However, subtlety is wise (no whiplash cases trying to catch a glimpse of some hot teenager in shorts & a tank top). And, after you've had your brief fantasy or whatever the situation might be called, it might be a nice gesture to squeeze your "relationsher's" hand as a "Thanks for letting me be a guy, I know you're my real "raison d'etre"....that's all it is, just a sweet gesture to reassure someone that you're just window shopping, not looking to buy...

Smiles,
Vet To Pet

True, true...

when I expressed my confusion regarding the definitions of the words, I was more precisely expressing confusion about the specific "lines" which had been drawn in Conscious Person's relationship,and how the other words were being used in that context. In the more general notion of thought processes, I totally agree, thought is free, freer even than speech, and it's just plain silly to imagine circumscribing or otherwise limiting your own thoughts, let alone someone else's!

I'd like to explore further your thoughts on the differences between men and women. Truly, there are differences, and in the honoring of those differences comes much truth and pleasure. The biological imperatives you reference are certainly at work, and do play a role in influencing our social mores, yet I wonder if this concept can be taken too far. Certainly, when used as an excuse, either for a man 'spreading his seed' or a woman playing the field to find a more suitable provider, this transcends the boundaries of personal responsibility, and depending on the specific dialog, could frequently be outside of the discussed agreement.

I guess I have a vision of equality that I am trying to come to terms with in light of my understanding of the diversity between the sexes. I want to hold space for women to be truthful as well, and I'd like women to honor their agreements and keep their "dogs" on a leash as well (ooh, that could be fun!). All this while still acknowledging and celebrating the differences that make it so much fun to be together.

Royce

[alanora]

So a woman whose husband longed for another but never consummated the desire asks: Is it true that men fanasize about women all the time, even if they are married? I'd love to hear from the men and women out there, as this is often a deal breaker for many relationships.

Linda's take:

The short answer: yes

The long answer: I think it unrealistic to think someone, whether male or female, would never think about another in the course of a lifetime because they are married. So having some space for mental dalliances is a worthy thing. And if a relationship is very restrictive, it might even create the fertile ground for the fantasy to take hold in. Just like with teenagers, if something is denied, it becomes wanted even more because it is denied. Knowing your partner and accepting their nature in this regard is both wise and mature.

What one does with the fantasy is totally dependent on the agreement within the marriage and how one handles themself. If it becomes a distraction from the relationship or keeps someone from being present because they're always thinking of another, this can certainly be a problem and may be indicative of some bigger issue within the relationship. But if it's just fantasy, who cares? It may even be a benefit: it can be a way for someone to express/release desires safely. Or it can even bring a spark to a relationship. It's all in how you hold it.

While I love Mr Barry, it is highly unlikely that I will never think about another man. And I certainly know my beloved thinks about other women! (I know them all by name!) He wouldn't be Barry if he didn't. But we recognize this about each other so it's really a non-issue.

I'd love to hear from some other Waccos on the topic.

Linda

So what happens to the idea curently in vogue that thoughts are things and are creative? Just trying to unite disparate ideas so that they fit into existing schemata....also very surprised that there were no comments regarding my posting re the safe sex misnomer!
Mindy

[Mrs. Wacco]

Simply put, if I were in a (committed) relationship with a man, I'd have to be naive to assume he wouldn't admire other women, in my presence or not. I often find myself "appreciating" a "man on the street" (grocery store, tarffic light, hardware store, etc), so I can only guess the same thing is going through a man's mind when he glances at an attractive woman. However, subtlety is wise (no whiplash cases trying to catch a glimpse of some hot teenager in shorts & a tank top). And, after you've had your brief fantasy or whatever the situation might be called, it might be a nice gesture to squeeze your "relationsher's" hand as a "Thanks for letting me be a guy, I know you're my real "raison d'etre"....that's all it is, just a sweet gesture to reassure someone that you're just window shopping, not looking to buy...

Smiles,
Vet To Pet

Vet to Pet- you make a very good point about reassurance. Whatever the bounds of the relationship: wide open or very closed, it's good relationship business to give one's partner reassurance that "they're the one". Creates a sense of safety, as what get's most folks all in a tizzy about fantasy, flirting, etc. is the fear that someone else is better and you might lose your partner. And the level of reassurance depends on the person; some people are insecure and need a a lot, others just a reminder.

Linda

[Mrs. Wacco]

So what happens to the idea curently in vogue that thoughts are things and are creative? Just trying to unite disparate ideas so that they fit into existing schemata....also very surprised that there were no comments regarding my posting re the safe sex misnomer!
Mindy

I think the key is whether you're looking to manifest something vs just a random, albeit pleasurable, thought. I agree that what we hold in our head has a huge influence in the life we create for ourselves. If you can't invision something and put real intention in the vision, there's a very good chance you won't manifest whatever you desire.

Granted a fantasy can easily turn into a reality, if one takes action, which could be as subtle as just sending energy to someone. Like the glance across a room. I'm just saying if one ISN"T taking action, what's the big deal.

Linda

[Juggledude]

I think the key is whether you're looking to manifest something vs just a random, albeit pleasurable, thought. I agree that what we hold in our head has a huge influence in the life we create for ourselves. If you can't invision something and put real intention in the vision, there's a very good chance you won't manifest whatever you desire.

Granted a fantasy can easily turn into a reality, if one takes action, which could be as subtle as just sending energy to someone. Like the glance across a room. I'm just saying if one ISN"T taking action, what's the big deal.

Linda

Another take on the manifestation subject, I would like to manifest a reality in which beauty can be appreciated, the beauty of a sunset, a flower, or a human. My appreciation of that beauty does not manifest a reality separate from my current relationship.

This takes a slightly different turn when fantasizing enters the picture, yet still, if I'm fantasizing about a relationship other than the one I am in, I could see myself manifesting aspects of that fantasy in the current relationship, not necessarily with a different person.

Royce