Religion contribute to Orlando massacre?

[Valley Oak]

Did religion contribute in any way to the 50 murdered gays in Orlando, Florida in June 2016?

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Shooter’s Father Says ‘God Himself Will Punish ... Homosexuality’

Seddique Mateen, the father of the Orlando shooter, has also appeared in video pretending to be the president of Afghanistan.
06/13/2016
Ron Dicker
General Assignment Reporter, The Huffington Post

The father of the Orlando shooter said early Monday that his son shouldn’t have killed patrons at the gay nightclub Pulse because God will punish them, The Washington Post reported.

Continues here.

[Thad]

I think the Catholic Church Crusades warped things a bit and I don't think American armament manufacturers have helped to solve much recently.

If your concerned with gun control I think it should be aimed at the military level.

Some global conversations about Ismael and Isaac could help settle things down a bit,

but the armament manufacturers wouldn't want that.

[Valley Oak]

The Roman Catholic Church (RCC), among other scandalous issues, still practices exorcism...yes, exorcism like in the movie, "The Exorcist." No, I'm not saying that the devil manifests itself like in the movie but the priests do practice the rituals and say the passages, and use holy water, etc. The RCC is a pretty spooky place but the deeper question is why in the 'hell' does anyone believe in ANY religion anymore??? (Catholicism is a Christian denomination and many people confuse it with being a religion itself.)

When people teach their children that homosexuality is sinful and disgusting and an illness, a perversion, that they follow satan, they will burn in hell, that gays are bad people putting things in the 'dirty hole,' etc, etc, that's when you will eventually get a homophobic, religious fanatic mass murderer like the Orlando shooter.

Get rid of the guns and get rid of religion. As a civilization, we will inevitably reach these milestones but right now those benchmarks are far off. The American people, tragically, are too blind with their dogma to do the right thing.

I think the Catholic Church Crusades warped things a bit and....

[Thad]

Why did you skip the thought of a global conversation of Ismael and Isaac ?

The Roman Catholic Church (RCC), among other scandalous issues, still practices exorcism....

[Valley Oak]

I don't know who you are referring to when you cite Ismael and Isaac. If you explain who they are and why they are pertinent then I will be happy to respond.

Why did you skip the thought of a global conversation of Ismael and Isaac ?

[Thad]

The three religions that are tearing our world apart are Christianity, Judaism, Islam. Funneling back into history to where the three were one comes to the time of Ismael and Isaac and the great lie and the perversion of history and logic

To look at that time and its dynamics could open dialogue, lance a festering boil which has festered through time and begin a healing that could save our world.

applying forensics to history would be very interesting

I don't know who you are referring to when you cite Ismael and Isaac. If you explain who they are and why they are pertinent then I will be happy to respond.

[Valley Oak]

To me, that means swimming around in theological trapeze work for which I have absolutely no interest in doing because I am atheist.

Rather than people wasting more of their time and money arguing over theological psychobabble they should instead simply stop believing in something that does not even exist in the first place.

That would solve all of the problems created by religion.

[Thad]

Thought experiment

someone has a gun its pointing at you and they are about to shoot you. You tell them to stop believing everything they believe in just so they won't shoot you.

How much good will that do you?

If someone is going to breakup with you. Do you address the edifice of excuses they have constructed or do you go back in time to where it was good and find then where it went bad or pretend that wrongs don't matter?

[Valley Oak]

Please, let's be realistic. Be careful when you use hypotheticals; they are often treacherous and deceiving and don't contribute anything to the debate.

First off, that situation you describe is not what happens in a crime scene. If so, it is extremely rare. What happens is that someone is committing a crime (sometimes including the police themselves). You do not have a conversation with a person pointing a gun at you. Again, if that happens it is rare and happens probably for good reason.

Is this scenario taking place at home? On a college campus? In a crowded shopping mall? Etc?

Usually, when a gun owner is attacked, he or she is not in a position to use their weapon. Furthermore, it has happened many times that the criminal takes the gun away from the gun owner. Finally, the numbers of gun owners getting hurt or killed by their own gun, or someone in their family, is MUCH higher than the occasions where the heroic narrative becomes a reality and they are actually able to shoot the criminal if not dissuade them.

Let's be honest. Let's get rid of guns before they continue killing us. Enough of the 2nd Amendment fairytales we were taught by our irresponsible grownups when we were all children. It's time open our eyes to the lies we were brainwashed with as little kids. There is no Santa Clause, there is no god, and there is no "right to bear arms" fantasy.

We have a horrifically dangerous amendment in the US Constitution that needs to be repealed. The sooner the better. Meanwhile, the cadavers keep piling up all over the country. Orlando is not the last and everybody knows it; yourself included.

[Thad]

Are you waiting for that to happen ?

The era of Isaac and Ismael is where the lesson of "blind obedience to authority" is taught to all three religions

.....they should instead simply stop believing in something that does not even exist in the first place.....

[Valley Oak]

No, I'm not expecting that to simply happen. But the more people who have a college education then the more atheists and agnostics we will have and that is progress. Free college education for everyone is a huge investment that we need to make in America. As a society, we get a return of $7 for every $1 that is invested in a college graduate.

There are 3 Abrahamic religions: Judaism, which came first; Christianity, 2nd; Islam, 3rd. There is also Hinduism and the Eastern philosophies, such as Buddhism, and others.

I never learned that concept in my Catholic catechism classes as a kid. Perhaps because I was too bored to pay attention or because the RCC doesn't want people to learn that lesson. Don't know, don't care. (You know my position on religion, anyhow.)

Obviously, no one should pay blind obedience to authority. Hitler is only one example. Another example is the dictatorship of the majority of Americans who hold that EVERYONE in the USA must be able to buy machine guns, risking mass shootings by lunatics who never should have had access to such deadly weapons.

It's truly insane; it is a collective insanity that most people in this country honesty believe in this fantasy that ALL Americans must have guns in order to keep the US government democratic for fear that someday it will turn into a totalitarian state. And that if we do have gun control then that is the first step towards such a fate.

How sad and how pathetic we humans can be. When people study history and look back at us in 2016 they will shake their heads in disbelief. But they will have at least some understanding of what the absurd arguments were.

When slavery existed in the United States, people argued in favor of it to NO END! But they were wrong and we can see that clearly today. We were blind by our dogma, economic interests, and fantasies back then.

Are you waiting for that to happen ?

The era of Isaac and Ismael is where the lesson of "blind obedience to authority" is taught to all three religions

[Valley Oak]

Here are a couple of short videos (5 min each) from The Young Turks news network on the subject of homophobia and religion, below. Turns out the shooter himself was gay:

Are you waiting for that to happen ?

The era of Isaac and Ismael is where the lesson of "blind obedience to authority" is taught to all three religions

[podfish]

The era of Isaac and Ismael is where the lesson of "blind obedience to authority" is taught to all three religions

"blind obedience to authority" is an irreligous concept - it is something that arises from many people's world view. They value order and security and thus offer their respect to those who they hope will provide it. You can't teach it to someone who doesn't have those characteristics.

[Valley Oak]

Please elaborate. Be a little more explicit. What do you mean exactly?

"blind obedience to authority" is an irreligous concept - it is something that arises from many people's world view. They value order and security and thus offer their respect to those who they hope will provide it. You can't teach it to someone who doesn't have those characteristics.

[podfish]

Please elaborate (on why "blind obedience for authority" is irreligious??). Be a little more explicit. What do you mean exactly?

there's not a perfect correlation between being religious and being overly respectful of authority. It's true that the three major religions Thad mentions are hierarchical and based on deference to authority. It's true that they teach it as a value, too. But I think he goes too far in assigning responsibility/blame for 'respect for authority' on the teachings of those religions.
Some people seek an authority. Actually, they just do - you can give a reason (e.g. they want someone else to take responsibility for their welfare and make decisions for them) but that's not necessary or all that defensible. You can observe that people do that. Other people resist authority. 'Why' is again not necessarily relevant. There are other spectra of attitudes that people can be measured against, too. My claim is that the external (the church, in this case) can't create the tendency. So people who value authority are likely to be drawn to the three religions mentioned. The religious organizations didn't create them.

Now, they CAN help shape a society that reinforces such attitudes, and makes it uncomfortable for those who don't share them. But that's not Thad's claim.