Efren will have his day in court!

[Geoff Johnson]

i know of a whom has been dating efren for couple years now. She often attended political parties with him, and they drank alcohol very often together. He promised to help her with some domestic court issues and she believed he was telling the truth.
Anyhow, i wish she would stand up for herself at this point, to let the courts know what a creep he can be...

If the prosecution thought such testimony would be admissible, no doubt they would have solicited it.

I like this sentence: "He promised to help her with some domestic court issues and she believed he was telling the truth." As in, "I'm a Supervisor, party with me, and I'll fix it for you"?

[Geoff Johnson]

I wonder if Efren was raised with constant praise to boost his self esteem? If whatever he did got positive feedback? Did he feel he could do no wrong? How was he taught to relate to women? What was he taught about Winning and Power?

As Lord Acton once said, "Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Great men are almost always bad men." Do we see some of that idea in this case?

I'm guessing he was constantly pushed beyond what he thought were his limits; and that he acquired only a juvenile understanding of the quality of "macho"

As a County Supe, Carrillo is not "great", nor is he entirely bad. But he was working at it.

[photolite]

]And what evidence do you have to support that Efren Carrillo would not engage in any type of sexual assault or misconduct?

You can't prove a negative.

photolite wrote:Yeah, but at least no one can accuse him of drinking shitty beer

This was such a blatant product placement endorsement after the fact; it's sick for someone supposedly out of rehab to essentially pitch support for a brand.

This was a joke. Please lighten up.

.

[photolite]

"Anybody who sees a psychiatrist should have their head examined"
Yogi Berra

Comments at the PD have downplayed his drinking as just self-indulgence. But I'm beginning to think that his admitted alcoholism (since high school, some 15 years) and hubris are closely associated.

His drinking may actually be self-medication for a bi-polar condition; or simply compensation for an inner understanding that he's been pushed too far, too fast. If there is a significant psychological component to his alcoholism, then he may not just be overly arrogant when drunk, but delusional.

When this is over, he probably should see a psychiatrist, before any further treatment for alcoholism.

[Dixon]

And what evidence do you have to support that Efren Carrillo would not engage in any type of sexual assault or misconduct? You just assume it.

Colleen, that's a straw figure argument. I have not taken the position that Efren would never engage in sexual assault--only that there is no evidence I've seen that he would. For all I know, he may have intended to rape, torture, kill and eat the woman. But in the absence of any evidence that he intended anything other than consensual sex--and keeping in mind the principles of "innocent until proven guilty" and benefit of the doubt--I insist that condemning him on the basis of people's speculation about what he might have intended is a harmful, not helpful, response.

I have heard too many statements from too many people to draw any conclusion other than he is a sexual predator...

What statements have you heard that have convinced you to make such a serious public accusation?

...how far that line extends was clear the night he was caught in underwear tearing a window screen where the victim was sleeping.

One of my main points is that Efren's intentions are not nearly as clear as some of you would like to think. I hate to deprive you folks of the self-righteous rush of condemning someone on the basis of poorly founded assumptions, but tolerance for uncertainty is a hallmark of maturity and rationality, and a prerequisite for real justice.

What may have happened if Efren had not thought he heard a man's voice and "bailed", or been caught by the cops that night is unknown.

Exactly! So I guess you agree with me that referring to his actions of that morning as attempted sexual assault is inappropriate given the lack of information.

Calling anther's statement on this a "rape fantasy" causes me to have concerns about you Dixon. Disturbing choice of words.

Hmmm...so you're not disturbed by people (including yourself) loosely slinging around words like "sexual predator", "rape" and "sexual assault", but when I accurately refer to someone's rape fantasy as such, that disturbs you. Just to be clear: I was not using the term "rape fantasy" in the erotic sense (though some people do have erotic fantasies of being raped). I was referring to the fact that, absent any evidence that nonconsensual sex was intended, assumptions of rape being involved are merely fantasy. There's nothing at all wrong with hypothesizing that Efren's intention was that dark (and, again, it could be true), but to jump from those speculations--fantasies--to public accusation and a call for indictment is, to put it politely, irresponsible and nonconstructive. And for you to suggest that my pointing out the lack of evidence for any intention of rape is "disturbing" says nothing about me and quite a bit about you.

[Dixon]

I don't know how you can say nothing he did constituted attempted sexual assault:

Everything I've heard so far is consistent with Efren's story that he was seeking consensual sex. Of course, we don't know for sure that that's true, but how have you reasonably ruled out that interpretation? And do you see that if you haven't really ruled out his claim (with evidence, not assumptions), it's inappropriate to jump to the more negative interpretation? This is, among other things, a Golden Rule issue.

IF I showed up at your house at 3 am, drunk & wearing only bra & panties, fiddling around your window - what would you think?

I'd think "Hallelujah!" I'm available just about any night at 3 AM! Should we make an appointment?

Now that we've shared a little chuckle, here's my more serious response: Did you not see in my earlier posts that I acknowledged that Efren's behavior was wrong, intrusive, and would reasonably scare a person? It still wasn't sexual assault. If that's unclear to you, here is a definition of "sexual assault".

...men have got to be able to empathize with women (& the frequency of sexual violence against women) for justice to happen.

Do you think that accusing people of sexual assault in the absence of any evidence for it is an indication of empathy for women? Or that my insistence on not assuming people's guilt based on our fantasies about what might have happened indicates a lack of empathy? What does your willingness to make false public accusations of vile things like sexual assault say about your empathy, or lack of it? Sheeeesh!

[Dixon]

This is mysogynistic, Dixon

.
Anyone who knows me well, male or female, would laugh at your attribution of misogyny to me. But ironically, I'm getting the impression that you may be afflicted with misandry. I say that because of the ugly picture you have created of me, based on grossly inaccurate and unfair interpretations of my statements. For example:

To attribute "rape fantasies" to a female writer is akin to Freud attributing to little girl's thoughts jealosy of boys because of what Freud considered to be a preferable genital configuration.

As I've explained in my post #65 in this thread, I wasn't using the term "rape fantasy" in the sense of erotic fantasies. I was simply pointing out that, absent any evidence that rape was intended, speculations about it in this context are just that--speculation, i.e., fantasy.

Criminal behavior analyists have been writing for at least 30 years that this type of behavior (stalking, peeping) is part of a pathway to becoming a rapist...

Even if we assume that's true, it doesn't follow that most peepers would ever rape anybody. Learning to fly a plane is part of a pathway to flying a jet into a skyscraper, but most pilots don't do that. Are you suggesting that it would be appropriate to assume that if someone is found to be a peeper, they would rape? I hope you're more intelligent than that.

Your point of view is disturbing becuase it is part of an ethos that denegrades and degrades women...

This is a very serious accusation that is pretty much impossible to respond to because you haven't specified what you mean by "Your [my] point of view". I really am not clear on what ugly "point of view" you're attributing to me. Is it my insistence that people not be assumed guilty of horrible things based on others' fantasies about their intentions that bothers you? Or what? Really, daynurse, it's now incumbent on you to clarify what you mean by my "point of view" and make a case for its harming women, or else publicly apologize for publicly insulting me.

It bothers me that you identify with the man in this case...

It bothers me that you distort my position into something ugly and stupid. I have not identified with the man any more than I have identified with the woman in this occurrence. Did you not read my posts in this thread wherein I condemned his actions and validated her feeling of fear? If you equate my insisting that we refrain from nasty, poorly founded accusations with identifying with the guy--well, that's just crappy logic on your part, isn't it? It's also gratuitously insulting to me.
Having said that, I do think it's fair to say that you're identifying with the woman in this case. I'm trying to embody a more balanced approach.

Men don't sneak into women's homes at 3 am in order to establish an equal relationship. It bothers me that Efrin thought she would welcome his presence so much that she'd have sex with him.

Was he sneaking into her home, or was he rattling the blinds to get her to wake up and let him in? Are you giving the benefit of the doubt, or looking for a male sacrificial animal to atone for the sins of men in general? If he was trying to sneak into her home, why did he knock on her front door? Also, note that you contradict yourself. First you say he wasn't seeking an equal relationship, then you acknowledge that he expected she'd welcome his presence and choose to have consensual sex--an equal relationship!

This is how at leasty 60 percent of rapists (FBI's National Crime Victim's Survey) think when they begin what they consider to be seduction but turns out to be an acquaintance rape.

If you think it follows from this that Efren intended rape, you need to take a basic logic class.

Up to 85% of women are not reporting rape, only 40 percent of reported rapes in Sonoma are solved by the police, oly 25 percent in Marin. Women are still being treated like criminals themselves by both men and women police investigators because of the false, repeat false meme that only a "real rape" happens 1. by a stranger, 2. outside and 3. with a weapon.

Yeah, all of this is horrible. But why are you lecturing us about rape? Do you imagine that anyone involved in this discussion endorses or tries to justify rape? I'm really feeling that you're not talking to me at all; instead you're addressing some stereotypical sexist male boogie-man that you've projected onto me.

Please, Dixon, try to look at this from the victim's perspective ... at least for the sake of discussion, if not for the sake of genuine human compassion.

Your notion that I'm not already doing that indicates that you haven't read my posts closely, or that your perception of me is grossly distorted by your stereotypes and projections. Now I invite you to look at this from a perspective that doesn't equate empathy for the victim with victimizing someone else by attributing to him crimes for which there is no compelling evidence. I have shown empathy for everybody in this situation, while I see you having empathy for only the woman. Again, I'm not misogynous, but you may be misandrous.

[Dixon]

These are weighty social issues that must be discussed in a non-emotional, logical manner. I truly hope a valuable discourse ensues from this. It is my personal opinion that speculation on what would've or could've happened or what may or may not have been thoughts in a given person's mind should be left out of it.

Bingo! That's what I've been saying all along. In response, I've been accused of misogyny, of lacking empathy for the woman, etc. It'll be interesting to see if those who've been slapping me around for taking this position now level similar accusations at you. I'm guessing that they reserve their nasty, distorted critique for males and will be gentler with you...

(I experienced a peeking incident a few months ago that left me quite rattled; so, my plea for logic and facts, as well as my willingness to discuss personal and societal attitudes around gender and power, are both heartfelt and peaceful in intent.)

[GardenGoddess]

GardenGoddess wrote:
These are weighty social issues that must be discussed in a non-emotional, logical manner. I truly hope a valuable discourse ensues from this. It is my personal opinion that speculation on what would've or could've happened or what may or may not have been thoughts in a given person's mind should be left out of it."



dixon wrote: "Bingo! That's what I've been saying all along. In response, I've been accused of misogyny, of lacking empathy for the woman, etc. It'll be interesting to see if those who've been slapping me around for taking this position now level similar accusations at you. I'm guessing that they reserve their nasty, distorted critique for males and will be gentler with you..."

Historically, my opinions are extremely unpopular, especially at social gatherings. Since I don't take sides and insist on facts, many people become uncomfortable. They demand I play a game and conform to the idea that all discussions are able to be polarized into two distinct sides of an issue. (This polarization is illogical in itself and cannot lead to a useful discussion.)

Also, I don't follow the course of trying to find an entity to blame for a situation or make up stories of what others are thinking. I can't know what's inside another person's head. Since I can't be put into a box or quantified, I find that I am distrusted, given a blank stare or laughed at as being ignorant. I was actually expecting to be blasted for my post....Thank you to all who expressed gratitude.

[podfish]

Since it seems that many assume that Carillo would have raped Jane Doe if he'd had a chance, I'm wondering about other women he may have succeeded in raping, since it's a pretty obvious assumption, by now that he's an alcoholic and a sexual predator. I assume and expect that other women will come forward, who haven't been as lucky as Jane Doe. At 33 years old, he's had plenty of time to rape many women, so it will be interesting to see who shows up to tell their tale.

"Assuming" that Carillo would have raped her is more likely, than "assuming" that he wouldn't have....or is it? If I were on trial, I'd be glad that assumptions aren't part of the evidence considered.

I'm just gonna assume your assumptions are presumptuous, preposterous, a little pompous and best kept private, Shandi.

I think you missed her point.

[daynurse]

Quod erat demonstrandum.

.
Anyone who knows me well, male or female, would laugh at your attribution of misogyny to me. But ironically, I'm getting the impression that you may be afflicted with misandry. I say that because of the ugly picture you have created of me, based on grossly inaccurate and unfair interpretations of my statements. For example:...

[podfish]

Quod erat demonstrandum.

et demonstrandum bonum quoque


ratione demonstratum, non praeiudicius.

to be clear.

[Dixon]

Quod erat demonstrandum.

That's the sort of evasive cop-out response we see from people who cannot refute the other discussant's points but are unwilling to acknowledge that they may be mistaken.

[Barry]

Efren has been judged to be NOT GUILTY.

Please direct further discussion to the new thread:

Verdict: Carrillo Not Guilty