Did Efren commit Burglary? What about punishment?

[soulange]

it is probable that mr. carrillo cannot say anything about the victim until the case is resolved. he did, however, move so the woman would not be threatened by his living in the neighborhood.

i did not vote for him either time, but i am surprised at the venom that is being spewed at him. as a feminist, i deplore his actions; but as a citizen, i would like him to have a trial before being sentenced in the court of public opinion.

[sebastacat]

Please be aware that there is an extremely high probability that this case will never go to trial, as the majority of criminal cases end in some type of plea. So if you think that we are going to get at the truth of this matter ONLY if there is a trial in the matter, that may just be wishful thinking.

but as a citizen, i would like him to have a trial before being sentenced in the court of public opinion.

[DreadTori]

Here's another misconception about police reports.....sigh......

it's not a matter of "...what the police decide to report...."

Police reports are seldom released to the public; there are real laws on the books governing privacy. When I got them during the course of my work, every person's name who was involved was redacted to protect their privacy. Their contact information was redacted too. Police reports are usually very dry; they tend to report "just the facts" with very little, if any conjecture about motives or reasons why someone did something unless it was stated by someone. Officers simply have no time to write long-winded reports; they are no longer allowed much overtime; they usually spend the time between calls trying to input their reports into their on-board laptops. Police reports cannot be changed once they have been submitted to the system and printed out, but they can have additions as new facts reveal themselves.

Detectives' reports are a little different and in my experience, would sometimes have a questioning or pondering tone about what might have happened or why someone did something, almost like thinking out loud (but really into a computer). It depended on the detective too; some were very verbose and others were incredibly tight-lipped.

When I worked in restorative justice, we didn't even get the police reports with all the names and contact info there; we had to ask for the complete one from Probation.

I understand that regular folks who have had no contact with law enforcement, the courts, or probation departments have no idea what the norm is and it's human nature to try to figure things out, which often leads to making stuff up or jumping to conclusions, which often turn out to be false.

I think what "we will find out when the police report comes out" is what the police decide to report.....

[Sara S]

What I meant was that the policeman decides what to put in the report that he turns in with the perp.

Here's another misconception about police reports.....sigh......

it's not a matter of "...what the police decide to report...."

[Thad]

A perp is a person, entitled to all considerations of human dignity and I guarantee 100% of the ( perps) became so out of desperation.

What I meant was that the policeman decides what to put in the report that he turns in with the perp.

[sharingwisdom]

arthunter,...You asked some great questions-thoughtful and provocative, ones that need to be addressed in very different ways than how it stands now… not in the old punitive ways. For over 25 years, I've worked with adults who were physically and sexually abused in childhood. I've also written books on the healing of abuse. I have heard the darkest of the Dark. I deeply understand what it takes to both remember these often repressed experiences, and the levels of pain one goes through to heal from this. I also understand about dissociative disorders due to childhood abuse, which are often not correctly identified and cause some to act out in behaviors that reenact the abuse they received to the level it was experienced (or worse). Most people don't recognize these patterns.

I agree that those who are actively perpetrating and are extremely dissociative, like they both know they did something to harm another and parts of them don't have a clue, need an area away from mainstream society to support their healing, not shut them away in the Prison corporations or the Big Pharm snake pits that exist. And not all want to heal, but they are still humans even if their actions speak differently. We have lived in a world of objectifying others, seeing them less than, and this needs to stop as well.

I don't have all the answers, for sure, as my focus is on helping with the healing aspect of trauma, but I know that there are think tanks and extremely creative and workable solutions being presented. Many people are bringing forth their brilliance in creating new healing modalities and communities, awakening to inspirational ideas that are manifesting in form on a daily basis. I've just been introduced to ways that help with PTSD quickly which was developed by a Vet looking at how to shift this faster. I've known there are many ways intuitively and have actually witnessed this occurring in the work that I do many times, but I'm always open to new ideas and applications. It's a time of 'what can be possible that supercedes what has been', and where do I want to fit into this with others. We are in very challenging but also incredibly transformative times.

One of the big things I feel is important is that people really learn to talk to each other in respectful ways so listening and sharing of ideas is possible. We are often so quick to overtalk and not hear what is being said, without asking the questions to get clarity. We trigger, stop being present with the other person and blame. We become sarcastic and shaming towards others. It's then not a place where open dialogue can really exist. This is the persecutor spot on the Drama Triangle. We often judge others before we actually know where they are coming from (right...like hasn't this been the controversial theme with Efren... but then he wasn't willing to talk at first either...and I really got that his statement to the supervisors was a huge deal for him and for those who could really 'hear' what it took to admit what he did). I'm a strong advocate of NVC and other communication techniques that help people pull out of the Drama Triangle.

I have had clients where family members were murdered. Through their deep inner strength, their amazing courage, and their awareness of not wanting to carry feelings of hatred, terror, despair as a life's burden, they chose to release into a process which allowed them to forgive those who did harm. It was so utterly sacred to be present for these situations. Again, it was a somatic, emotional, and spiritual experience for them. Let's not forget that there are lessons to be learned on both ends. And we are not responsible if the other learns them, just that we can experience peace of mind. The healing one doesn't even have to be in connection with the one who did harm or ever see them again (and many chose not to as it wouldn't benefit them in any way.) Once the lessons have been learned, they can be released. Decisions become a choice, not a 'Sophie's choice', when this healing process occurs. This is when the possibilities spring forth because there is a flow of energy that has opened up.

We can again look at what happened in South Africa during the apartheid period where people were tortured and murdered in front of others. Did you see the movie with Samuel L. Jackson, 'In My Country'? It was a story of admission, acknowledgment, releasing, redemption, about the Truth and Reconciliation Commission. It was so powerful!

If people truly understood that forgiveness is not what has been defined in an old world view of it and realize what it really is and entails, there might be more of a willingness to see how the outer world is reflecting already existing feelings within. I get that it’s a process, and it can take years depending on what happened, but it's still an energy of release moving in a direction of freedom...self liberation, and that's what we have to change first...ourselves. From there, the energy moves out into the world for expansion.

I appreciate that you asked the questions and hopefully others will join in with caring ideas. I may not participate that much, because I'm in the midst of writing another book about the healing of abuse. I care deeply about this world, but it has been in a Trauma Paradigm for way too long with a deep history of wars and the abuse. I have dreams that it can be a way better place once humanity has furthered its path of kindness and compassion. For me, that takes the path of forgiveness.

“You never change things by fighting the existing reality.
To change something, build a new model that makes the existing model obsolete.”
― Richard Buckminster Fuller

A beautiful concept, sharingwisdon, and an ideal to be taken seriously ...

I do wonder though, about the real possibility of this occurring. So often, aggressors are aggressive because of some inability to communicate about their pain ... not because of any fault in their character, but perhaps because of abuse in their own background which silences them and causes them to be distrusting and combative ... how can the community reach out to these people when they often hide this inner conflict?

Also, a lot of abuse in our world is ongoing and it's very difficult to forgive an oppressor for a situation which hasn't ended yet ... healing just isn't possible in the face of an attack ... when one is attacked the self-protection mechanism kicks in and defense and survival become the only reality ... how do we end these conflicts so that discussion and healing can actually take place?

Relatively small offenses, as in Efren's case, could definitely be forgiven, in my opinion ... but what about larger issues where family members are actually murdered? ... I know a local woman who claims that her child was murdered because of her political activism ... I don't know if this is true, but if it is, what possible resolution can she have? ... in cases like these, forgiveness is a tall order ...

Just my two cents worth ...

[arthunter]

Thank you sharingwisdom, ... you give me hope ...

These are tough times and I sometimes think that we are just beginning to emerge from some kind of murky, emotional Dark Ages ... a time when most people were abused or discredited by programmed habits of judgement and insensitivity ... best to remember that we are all vulnerable human beings prone to emotional pain and defense mechanisms like addiction ...

Wouldn't it be wonderful if Efren's incident provoked some serious contemplation about compassion and forgiveness?... sometimes this seems like the hardest work on earth, but it sure would feel good to be on the receiving end of these gifts ....

arthunter,...You asked some great questions-thoughtful and provocative, ones that need to be addressed in very different ways than how it stands now… not in the old punitive ways. For over 25 years, I've worked with adults who were physically and sexually abused in childhood. I've also...

[DreadTori]

Thank you, Sara S. for clarifying what you meant.

Police reports are incredibly dry; it's not really a matter of what the officer "decides" to put in it. There are rules around what he/she can report and how. I repeatedly found that I couldn't get a handle on what really happened until I talked with the officer, and I usually had a long list of questions about behavior, attitude, body language, tone of voice, etc. of the involved parties. Just like in the old Dragnet TV show back in the 70s, they only get to report "just the facts." Personally, I'd love to read the police report, but it probably wouldn't give me much info to go on, unfortunately.

What I meant was that the policeman decides what to put in the report that he turns in with the perp.

[DreadTori]

Thank you, Sharingwisdom! You did honor to your name in this posting. I love to see this kind of deep, thoughtful response on these threads. I wonder are you familiar with Dr. Gabor Mate's work in Canada? I'm just reading his book In the Realm of Hungry Ghosts. It's a book I wish everyone would read.

arthunter,...You asked some great questions-thoughtful and provocative, ones that need to be addressed in very different ways than how it stands now… not in the old punitive ways. ...

[DreadTori]

Sebastacat, you are right that this will probably not make it to trial and it's true that the majority of criminal cases end in some type of plea.

I want people to understand why that is the norm now. Like everything else in our society, courts are dependent on funding, usually from the federal, state, and county governments. And they have been deeply affected by the bad economy. There aren't enough courtrooms available for everyone to have a trial, plus for some people, taking a plea bargain is preferable to taking a chance on the outcome of a trial. So, it saves money to "plea out."

There is another reason why our courts are swamped by cases. Over the last 10-15 years, more and more mandatory sentence laws have been passed, usually because the government wants to appear "tough on crime." Remember in my earlier posts on this thread I talked about our natural proclivity to move into "revenge mode" and demand punishment? Well, we, the people, keep electing the people who talk the "tough on crime" language.

Unfortunately, the number of people sentenced to prison has risen dramatically. I routinely read of doubling and tripling of prison populations; look at our own state system, which is a mess at TRIPLE the level that is considered at capacity. The privatizing of prisons has contributed as well. (Leave it to Americans to find a way to make a profit off putting people in prison) I just read a statistic yesterday that stated that we have 5% of the world's population, but we have the highest rate of incarceration at 25%! That means that 25% of the people in prison in the world today are Americans. So much for "land of the free."

There is also the right to privacy, which may be invoked in a plea bargain where the defending attorney asks that records be sealed or only minimal information gets released. I don't think that's right, but it is what it is.

Personally, I'm not as interested in the facts of this case as much as I am wanting to see everyone involved have a voice, especially the victim and her loved ones, in the outcome. And, I would very much like to see all involved get whatever support they need to heal as much as possible, and be able to move forward in their lives. And that includes Efren.

Please be aware that there is an extremely high probability that this case will never go to trial, as the majority of criminal cases end in some type of plea. So if you think that we are going to get at the truth of this matter ONLY if there is a trial in the matter, that may just be wishful thinking.

[sharingwisdom]

I looked up Dr. Mate, and interestingly, Amy Goodman, from 'Democracy Now' did an interview with him so anyone who is interested can get a feeling for this man's work. https://www.democracynow.org/2010/2/3/addiction I'm impressed with his understanding of the correlation between abuse and addiction. I appreciate that he showed how things are set up against the infant in their socio-economic and environmental backgrounds that affect the brain chemistry from the start and their development. I've written similarly. I'm wondering if he is aware that the brain chemistry imbalance actually starts in utero through the hormones released by the mother in her stress...probably does.

I also wonder if he might be aware that there are technologies and modalities that can stop the drug use rather than setting up a system where there is an allowance of the addiction. Healing the trauma is very important, of course, yet the physiological addiction needs a space to be eliminated. In fact, there is a clinic in Canada that works with lasers to stop addiction. I had a friend's husband stop his drinking this way. https://www.alphalaserinfo.com/ Perhaps a step at a time. I appreciate you sharing this.

Thank you, Sharingwisdom! You did honor to your name in this posting. I love to see this kind of deep, thoughtful response on these threads. I wonder are you familiar with Dr. Gabor Mate's work in Canada? I'm just reading his book In the Realm of Hungry Ghosts. It's a book I wish everyone would read.

[rossmen]

i disagree, pleas are the 90%+ norm for decades back because this is the way the punitive justice system works. is there any chance efren would choose to engage restorative practices in his criminal proceedings? in our justice system it is his choice which i imagine his lawyers advise him against since he is a power player with advantage. the obvious choice would be for him to step away from representing wacco land to focus on his personal issues with drinking, women and power. i don't see how he has any political future without doing this.

Sebastacat, you are right that this will probably not make it to trial and it's true that the majority of criminal cases end in some type of plea.

I want people to understand why that is the norm now. Like everything else in our society, courts are dependent on funding, usually from the federal, state, and county governments. And they have been deeply affected by the bad economy. There aren't enough courtrooms available for everyone to have a trial, plus for some people, taking a plea bargain is preferable to taking a chance on the outcome of a trial. So, it saves money to "plea out."

There is another reason why our courts are swamped by cases. Over the last 10-15 years, more and more mandatory sentence laws have been passed, usually because the government wants to appear "tough on crime." Remember in my earlier posts on this thread I talked about our natural proclivity to move into "revenge mode" and demand punishment? Well, we, the people, keep electing the people who talk the "tough on crime" language.

Unfortunately, the number of people sentenced to prison has risen dramatically. I routinely read of doubling and tripling of prison populations; look at our own state system, which is a mess at TRIPLE the level that is considered at capacity. The privatizing of prisons has contributed as well. (Leave it to Americans to find a way to make a profit off putting people in prison) I just read a statistic yesterday that stated that we have 5% of the world's population, but we have the highest rate of incarceration at 25%! That means that 25% of the people in prison in the world today are Americans. So much for "land of the free."

There is also the right to privacy, which may be invoked in a plea bargain where the defending attorney asks that records be sealed or only minimal information gets released. I don't think that's right, but it is what it is.

Personally, I'm not as interested in the facts of this case as much as I am wanting to see everyone involved have a voice, especially the victim and her loved ones, in the outcome. And, I would very much like to see all involved get whatever support they need to heal as much as possible, and be able to move forward in their lives. And that includes Efren.

[occihoff]

I very much appreciate this discussion. My point of view as a practitioner of Reichian work leads me to add that we should make a vital distinction between forgiveness on what we might call a spiritual or philosophical level, and forgiveness on a bioenergetic or physical level. On the philosophical level I would say that we are all driven to feel what we feel and do what we do by forces such as genetically determined personality tendencies and early family conditioning, plus what happens to us as we go on in life. From this standpoint it is meaningless to blame. We are what we are and do what we are impelled to do. From this standpoint even Hitler (always a favorite example!) was a victim, a victim of his own personality which led him to victimize others. We can feel compassion for this man who started out, like all of us, as an innocent child, whose painful experiences gradually turned him into a hateful psychopath. We can pity him even as we loathe him and the suffering he wreaked on others.

On the bioenergetic or physical level, however, when we are abused or victimized we get angry, and the earlier it starts in childhood and the longer the abuse continues, the deeper and more ingrained in our emotional and physical being the anger becomes. This anger is not dissipated by higher philosophical attitudes of forgiveness. We may succeed in suppressing conscious feelings of rage, but the suppressed impulses live on in characterological defense mechanisms and chronic physical tensions that can create all kinds of problems. This physiologically ingrained anger can only be ameliorated by actual physical and emotional release, and this requires courage, commitment, and focused effort. I say these things not as a theoretician but out of direct personal experience.

arthunter,...You asked some great questions-thoughtful and provocative, ones that need to be addressed in very different ways than how it stands now… not in the old punitive ways. For over 25 years, I've worked with adults who were physically and sexually abused in childhood. I've also written books on the healing of abuse. I have heard the darkest of the Dark. I deeply understand what it takes to both remember these often repressed experiences, and the levels of pain one goes through to heal from this. I also understand about dissociative disorders due to childhood abuse, which are often not correctly identified and cause some to act out in behaviors that reenact the abuse they received to the level it was experienced (or worse). Most people don't recognize these patterns.

I agree that those who are actively perpetrating and are extremely dissociative, like they both know they did something to harm another and parts of them don't have a clue, need an area away from mainstream society to support their healing, not shut them away in the Prison corporations or the Big Pharm snake pits that exist. And not all want to heal, but they are still humans even if their actions speak differently. We have lived in a world of objectifying others, seeing them less than, and this needs to stop as well.

I don't have all the answers, for sure, as my focus is on helping with the healing aspect of trauma, but I know that there are think tanks and extremely creative and workable solutions being presented. Many people are bringing forth their brilliance in creating new healing modalities and communities, awakening to inspirational ideas that are manifesting in form on a daily basis. ...

[DreadTori]

Rossmen, I don't know how far back the plea deals go in our history; I only know about what I saw while working with that system. You may be correct. I do know that plea deals have increased in the last twenty years, but as I said in my posting, so have mandatory sentences & so has the number of people who have been incarcerated.

I have no idea if Efren or his attorneys would be open to a restorative process. As an adult it would not be his choice; it would have to be the judge's choice. He or his attorneys could ask for it, but there is no guarantee that the judge would approve or that the victim would agree to participate. Victims have all the rights in restorative justice(RJ for here on out) and none of the obligations that the guilty person has. That is because RJ is very focused on preventing re-victimization, which happens often in the punitive and adversarial system we have now. Sometimes, in my work, it was the victim who asked for RJ after hearing about it somewhere. Wouldn't it be interesting if this woman victim involved would ask for it? My understanding is that Restorative Resources can work with individuals up to and including 26 years of age. Efren is 31? 32? If the judge on this case was open to it, he or she could recommend it as part of the plea deal or terms of the sentence or probation.

New Zealand has begun doing adult cases after over 25 years of the entire juvenile justice system being restorative. If there was a political will, that could happen here. If the community demanded it, it could happen here, but Americans are unfortunately still stuck in adolescent revenge and punishment fantasies. They believe that punishment works to deter crime because our political leaders (I use that word very loosely) tell them that constantly. What's that quote about repeating a lie enough times, people believe that it's the truth?

There's also huge money in building and maintaining prisons, lots of jobs & services that support it; entire towns are "prison towns" the way that they used to be "company towns." Susanville here in California is an example of that, but there are lots more all over the country. The privatizing of prisons is very profitable now; why would anyone want to support restorative justice? There's no money in it. And like I've said before on this thread, leave it to Americans to make a profit on incarcerating its citizens.

I don't have all the answers about what needs to happen in this particular case. It's obvious that Efren has some serious issues with alcohol and possibly around inappropriate and predatory behavior towards women.
Because I come from a compassionate place rather than a punitive place, I just want to see everyone involved be supported in whatever way they need so that they can heal as much as is possible and be able to move forward with their lives.

If Efren is guilty of attempted sexual assault then the question that needs to be asked is what happened to him that this is something he would accept as okay to do?

i disagree, pleas are the 90%+ norm for decades back because this is the way the punitive justice system works. is there any chance efren would choose to engage restorative practices in his criminal proceedings? in our justice system it is his choice which i imagine his lawyers advise him against since he is a power player with advantage. the obvious choice would be for him to step away from representing wacco land to focus on his personal issues with drinking, women and power. i don't see how he has any political future without doing this.

[rossmen]

i also don't know the exact stats for criminal cases filed and also experience the trend being more plea resolutions. my guess is the underfunding of public defenders has the most to do with it. the stats are hard to come by because da's keep them secret. ravitch hasn't released any data. i read the 90%+ statistic recently in an article advocating for jury trial as the basis for the us justice system.

the restorative justice process i am most familiar with is restorative circles. new zealand family councils are similar to what restorative resources does for juveniles here in sonoma county, they are requested by either the offender or involved authorities.

what i would love effren to do is hold a public forum to address his actions with the community. restorative resources, recourse and world work facilitators, all active restorative practitioners here in sonoma county, could design a format. the peace and justice center and nvc community might provide additional support for all voices being heard.

true restorative practice requires the willingness for honesty and deep self reflection. it is both infinitely more difficult and rewarding than punishment biased justice. it is part of the work we as a society need to do to survive and thrive through an increasingly rapid state of change. effren has a chance here for inspirational leadership. i just don't think he has the balls.

Rossmen, I don't know how far back the plea deals go in our history; I only know about what I saw while working with that system. You may be correct. I do know...

[sharingwisdom]

I wonder if you missed the point of what I wrote as the process of forgiveness in my explanation of it, Richard. I wrote it in two postings so maybe you didn't see the first one. I said it IS a process of release, so I don't disagree with you. I wasn't being ungrounded or pollyannish about this at all. I understand what it takes to uncover the depths of feelings and issues in abuse and then allow for the release, but forgiveness is not separate from this...it is the process of release that can go through many levels until there is no charge toward the situation or person, like a plug pulled out of a socket. a complete discharge, and a higher level of awareness of the entire situation is experienced. I invite you to re-read what I wrote for clarity.

I very much appreciate this discussion. My point of view as a practitioner of Reichian work leads me to add that we should make a vital distinction between forgiveness on what we might call a spiritual or philosophical level, and forgiveness on a bioenergetic or physical level. On the philosophical level I would say that we are all driven to feel what we feel and do what we do by forces such as genetically determined personality tendencies and early family conditioning, plus what happens to us as we go on in life. From this standpoint it is meaningless to blame. We are what we are and do what we are impelled to do. From this standpoint even Hitler (always a favorite example!) was a victim, a victim of his own personality which led him to victimize others. We can feel compassion for this man who started out, like all of us, as an innocent child, whose painful experiences gradually turned him into a hateful psychopath. We can pity him even as we loathe him and the suffering he wreaked on others.

On the bioenergetic or physical level, however, when we are abused or victimized we get angry, and the earlier it starts in childhood and the longer the abuse continues, the deeper and more ingrained in our emotional and physical being the anger becomes. This anger is not dissipated by higher philosophical attitudes of forgiveness. We may succeed in suppressing conscious feelings of rage, but the suppressed impulses live on in characterological defense mechanisms and chronic physical tensions that can create all kinds of problems. This physiologically ingrained anger can only be ameliorated by actual physical and emotional release, and this requires courage, commitment, and focused effort. I say these things not as a theoretician but out of direct personal experience.

[occihoff]

Sharingwisdom, I'm sorry to say I never saw your post, but I imagine it was a good one. I try not to get too dragged in to these discussions because I have so many other things I must do, and these posts can get so engrossing!

I wonder if you missed the point of what I wrote as the process of forgiveness in my explanation of it, Richard. I wrote it in two postings so maybe you didn't see the first one. I said it IS a process of release, so I don't disagree with you. I wasn't being ungrounded or pollyannish about this at all. I understand what it takes to uncover the depths of feelings and issues in abuse and then allow for the release, but forgiveness is not separate from this...it is the process of release that can go through many levels until there is no charge toward the situation or person, like a plug pulled out of a socket. a complete discharge, and a higher level of awareness of the entire situation is experienced. I invite you to re-read what I wrote for clarity.

[Barry]

Efren was charged with the misdemeanor of "peeking" today. I have started a new thread called "Efren charged with "misdemeanor peeking" in General Community to discuss this. I am closing this thread.