Comments 'against' OWS...

[lynn]

For those that are fervently behind 'OWS'...
Just wonderin how/what you would say to these kinds of comments...
How would you 'promote' OWS?...in light of the criticisms in the article?...

Quote:

Oh, the sweet irony! Instead of "redistributing the wealth", the fat marxists at the top of this dung heap are sticking it in their pockets. Welcome to Communism 101, ya morons.

Quote:

They are turning into their own big corporation that they love to hate....$8000 for drums and a shed from Home depot? Sounds like the Stimulus plan to me...

Quote:

Did the Entertainment Committee build the flatscreen TV on site, or did they buy it from....a corporation?

Quote:

For all those "occupiers" that want a "free" education. The goverment has a scholarship program that pays for your college tuition, books, and a monthly stipend to pay for housing. Free ride plus an allowance. Easy to apply! My friends and I did it! Go to www.goarmy.com.

Quote:

Perhaps in the end this will be a life lesson for the occupiers. They are turning into exactly that which they claim to be against. A few of them are controlling the money instead of sharing it equaling, why? They are learning in that park what they should have been taught in school.

Quote:

Yes but they are fighting over "donated" $$$$$ can you imagine what it would be like if they actually had "worked" for the money.....that is the real irony IMHO....

https://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/m...#ixzz1bdegFJ6d

["Mad" Miles]

Consider the source. The NY Post? A rabidly hateful tabloid and confabulator? Nay sayers will always say nay. Not worth any time and effort to respond. And given your other post tonight, what are you doing to help? To contribute to the movement and the critique of the economic setup? I have my own reservations and concerns. If I want to air them, I'll take them to a General Assembly and wait for the right part to the agenda. Otherwise, this is the first popular, mass movement responding to economic injustice and a broad range of issues that fall within that, for some forty years. The kids are alright!

[lynn]

Okay Miles...
But, I think it's worth it to sometimes at least be willing to address what people's criticisms would be and are...
I really did want to hear what people would say to those who insult them about this movement, and think it's 'worthless', and all that...

And yes, I'm pissed that people whine about Obama and didn't even bother to go out and vote...While the tea-party got pissed, got active, got out and VOTED!!...
It's VERY disturbing and frustrating to see that! And it makes me worry about this next election year!...

There are sometimes reasons why 'libs' have the reputation of being whiny, spoiled jerks...

When people see somethin' worse comin' around the corner, and they don't even bother to vote...
All I can think of is...'When good people do nothing'....etc....

[podfish]

.... I think it's worth it to sometimes at least be willing to address what people's criticisms would be and are...
I really did want to hear what people would say to those who insult them about this movement, and think it's 'worthless', and all that...

I don't think any of the "comments" had any thought behind them; they were knee-jerk responses, mostly. For example, raising the Commie boogyman, or a paraphrased "hey, kid, get a job" (go into the army). Not worth a response.

And yes, I'm pissed that people whine about Obama and didn't even bother to go out and vote...While the tea-party got pissed, got active, got out and VOTED!!...

that sounds like an assumption based on stereotype; I don't know how you'd know who voted and who didn't.

[lynn]

podfish..."I don't think any of the "comments" had any thought behind them; they were knee-jerk responses, mostly. For example, raising the Commie boogyman, or a paraphrased "hey, kid, get a job" (go into the army). Not worth a response."

I agree, a lot of knee jerk stuff...But, these kinds of people are going to vote Repub. and they know how to fight, and fight to win...
And if others don't want the top 1% to get even more abusive power...Then people are going to need to respond, and get behind Obama, and be involved in the political process by working hard for Dem. candidates, and vote.
And I'm concerned about some things I'm hearing about 'OWS'...(like some people wanting a collapse of the system, or not caring about voting for Obama)....There's no clear leadership, and focus...etc...

If people who consider themselves part of the 99%, don't do anything to stop more of these extreme pro- Big Corporate right-wing Repubs. from getting elected...Then the protesting will be...
"Full of Sound and Fury signifying nothing"...
And all those kinds of people who write these types of 'knee-jerk' comments, and think you are some kind of nutcase commie are the ones that'll win!...And then this country will REALLY be in DEEP SHIT!
Does anyone reading this want that?

In the states where Repubs. have a lot of control, they are already putting steps in place to seriously discourage Dem. voter turnout. Dems. are going to need an army to win this next yr...
There is going to be tons of money and fighting energy on the Repub. side...

"that sounds like an assumption based on stereotype; I don't know how you'd know who voted and who didn't."...

Are you kidding me? I am completely astounded by that statemtent. I don't know where you've been...
Don't you know what happened in Nov. 2010?...Helllloooooooooooo - The House, Nancy Pelosi....
People like Feingold, and Grayson losing...
Repubs. like Scott Walker getting elected...
Several people predicted low voter turnout for Dems...And I figured it was coming too, based on all the whining, and lack of guts...

================================================================
...."What’s more, a recent poll by the liberal Daily Kos blog found just 56 percent of Democrats definitely or probably voting in 2010 vs. 81 percent of Republicans...Indeed, the prospect of a terrible 2010 environment has already pushed some veteran Democratic legislators in competitive districts into retirement such as John Tanner of Tennessee and Brian Baird of Washington."...
https://blogs.reuters.com/james-peth...house-in-2010/

Rep. Alan Grayson on Why the Democrats Lost Big
..."it’s a situation where Democratic voters didn’t vote. And when Democrats don’t vote, Democrats can’t win"…
https://blogs.alternet.org/grantlawrence/2010/11/06/rep-alan-grayson-on-why-the-democrats-lost-big/

[podfish]

I agree, a lot of knee jerk stuff...But, these kinds of people are going to vote Repub. and they know how to fight, and fight to win...

they are what they are. They're applying their own biases to what they see and those biases aren't going to change. The OWS has done an outstanding job so far as reassuring people who are open to them at all. The media isn't getting the equivalent of people calling returning GIs "baby killers"; those lessons were learned 40 years ago. Similarly the audience is more media savvy, too. They know they're getting pictures of any extreme behavior, whether it's representative or not - at least if they care to know.

people are going to need to respond, and get behind Obama, and be involved in the political process by working hard for Dem. candidates, and vote.
And I'm concerned about some things I'm hearing about 'OWS'...(like some people wanting a collapse of the system, or not caring about voting for Obama)....There's no clear leadership, and focus...etc...

Some do want that; but some aren't happy with taking the lesser of two evils. Returning to 1999 isn't the goal, here... People seem to want a transition similar to the one from the "gilded age" to the New Deal era. That's not just a change of parties in power. I think it's amazing that the public at large seems to be coming around to that awareness. Remember, Reagan changed from Democrat to Republican because of a marginal tax rate of 90%!!! can you even imagine a tax rate that high being seriously proposed by any politician today? and yet that's the environment we had not that long ago. The ideas up for discussion these days are horribly constrained, and OWS may create an atmosphere where that can change.

"that sounds like an assumption based on stereotype; I don't know how you'd know who voted and who didn't."...
Are you kidding me? I am completely astounded by that statemtent. I don't know where you've been...
Don't you know what happened in Nov. 2010?...Helllloooooooooooo - The House, Nancy Pelosi....
People like Feingold, and Grayson losing...Several people predicted low voter turnout for Dems...
...."What’s more, a recent poll by the liberal Daily Kos blog found just 56 percent of Democrats definitely or probably voting in 2010 vs. 81 percent of Republicans

this isn't the Democratic response to a Republican political effort! If that's your filter, you're right. "These people" who are OWS are more likely than not Democrats, true enough. If I were to make an assumption about their political history without bothering to get evidence, I'd guess that there's a big overlap between those willing to get out and protest, and those who were motivated to vote in what so many unaccountably thought was an unimportant 2010 election. I'd guess that those who couldn't be bothered to vote can't muster the initiative to get out to the streets.

[podfish]

Here's a nice opinion piece, not particularly ideological (except insofar as the facts are ideological) that gives a good context for what's going on.

[lynn]

Here's a nice opinion piece, not particularly ideological (except insofar as the facts are ideological) that gives a good context for what's going on.

Yes, that's a thoughtful article - thanks for posting it...

Right now, I am feeling pretty negative about OWS....What's happening in Oakland is very disturbing...Local businesses are suffering, people feel unsafe about traveling through there...And if the focus is suppose to be on the corruption of banks and financial sectors, why bother with shutting down the port?...Why are kids and teachers leaving school for the day?...
What are the goals of OWS?...
MLK, and Ghandi had clear focus, and organization...Without leadership and clear goals, I don't see what is suppose to encourage more people to support it...
It starts to look like one big mess of people needing free food, and stuff all the time just to camp out and not do much of anything...

[Orm Embar]

What are the goals of OWS?...
MLK, and Ghandi had clear focus, and organization...Without leadership and clear goals, I don't see what is suppose to encourage more people to support it...

I went down to Occupy Sebastopol and asked the same question: What is the goal of Occupy Sebastopol? It sparked some interesting sharing and what I came away with was this: We can rest easy that there is no head-long rush into defining the goals of this movement. All we know is that things are not right and it is our responsibility - as the people of our community (be that Sebastopol, California, USA or the world) - to come together and do the hard work of making a shift.

I know this may seem unreasonable . . . but I believe the power of this movement rests in the fact that it cannot be pinned down and therefore ignored or refuted. By the time there is a clear singular goal there will be the entire mass of people behind it . . . less opportunity to splinter the movement or halt the momentum.

There are some interesting conversations taking place in our plaza . . . come join in. There is a bulletin board being set up today for ideas to be posted when these conversations result in something to be shared. There are General Assemblies (GAs) - any and all are invited to attend. Today (Mon) the GA is at 3pm.

The format for decision-making is Full Consensus. Consensus skills take some practice and many people are new to this way of making decisions, so group dynamics will be bumpy for a while. If you have facilitation experience, maybe you can come on down and help facilitate the infancy of this movement!

What do you want the goal to be?

[someguy]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16VN41bUuMs

This video might help explain the poor logic and hatred that some at the OccupyNY gathering are displaying.

[Sara S]

why is this post in the "Censored" category, which is usually for jokes?

I went down to Occupy Sebastopol and asked the same question: What is the goal of Occupy Sebastopol? It sparked some interesting sharing and what I came away with was this: We can rest easy that there is no head-long rush into defining the goals of this movement. All we know is that things are not right and it is our responsibility - as the people of our community (be that Sebastopol, California, USA or the world) - to come together and do the hard work of making a shift.

I know this may seem unreasonable . . . but I believe the power of this movement rests in the fact that it cannot be pinned down and therefore ignored or refuted. By the time there is a clear singular goal there will be the entire mass of people behind it . . . less opportunity to splinter the movement or halt the momentum.

There are some interesting conversations taking place in our plaza . . . come join in. There is a bulletin board being set up today for ideas to be posted when these conversations result in something to be shared. There are General Assemblies (GAs) - any and all are invited to attend. Today (Mon) the GA is at 3pm.

The format for decision-making is Full Consensus. Consensus skills take some practice and many people are new to this way of making decisions, so group dynamics will be bumpy for a while. If you have facilitation experience, maybe you can come on down and help facilitate the infancy of this movement!

What do you want the goal to be?

[Orm Embar]

why is this post in the "Censored" category, which is usually for jokes?

I don't know why the original poster started the thread in "censored". I posted here because I was responding to a post within the thread. I also posted my message in the "occupy" category, since I felt it was appropriate there.

cheers,
L

[lynn]

"What do you want the goal to be?"...
--------------------------------------------------------

When someone asks questions...They get questions back?...
So, it's a movement of conversations and more questions?...
Occupy will go no-where if they keep doing this...among other non-sensical things...

Apparently, camping out and using up local resources seems to be their goal...
Fighting over turf is what gangs do...

Occupy is pissing people off! People that are part of the 99%...
What was the reason today to block all that traffic in San Fran. on Black Friday?...
What's the message?...
People don't even know what it is, because it wasn't even there...
There's no there there...
It's pathetic...

Right now it looks like Occupiers are in love with idea of being Occupiers...And I see nothing but a bunch of very unfocused energy...

I'm going to try and get behind those Reps. running for office I like, and send 'em the few bucks I can every month since they are going to need it....A lot of Corp. money is going to be thrown to block these people from getting into office, or getting re-elected as the case may be...
I want those people to 'Occupy' D.C...

That's more clear than anything I've heard from the 'Occupy' people...

[zenekar]

"What do you want the goal to be?"...
--------------------------------------------------------

When someone asks questions...They get questions back?...
So, it's a movement of conversations and more questions?...
Occupy will go no-where if they keep doing this...among other non-sensical things...

Apparently, camping out and using up local resources seems to be their goal...
Fighting over turf is what gangs do...

Occupy is pissing people off! People that are part of the 99%...
What was the reason today to block all that traffic in San Fran. on Black Friday?...
What's the message?...
People don't even know what it is, because it wasn't even there...
There's no there there...
It's pathetic...

Right now it looks like Occupiers are in love with idea of being Occupiers...And I see nothing but a bunch of very unfocused energy...

I'm going to try and get behind those Reps. running for office I like, and send 'em the few bucks I can every month since they are going to need it....A lot of Corp. money is going to be thrown to block these people from getting into office, or getting re-elected as the case may be...
I want those people to 'Occupy' D.C...

That's more clear than anything I've heard from the 'Occupy' people...

I gather that you're pissed off at the Occupy Movement. But don't speak for everyone. People DO know what the message is and there is plenty good reason why they are in the streets. Electoral politics infused with millions of corporate dollars has failed at representing citizens. That doesn't mean you shouldn't put any energy into it to try to change it, esp. in the "Move to Amend" campaign. But the People's (Occupy) Movement is bigger than that. It is international with support from all sectors, except the less than 1% which controls the wealth and resources, and exploits people's labor around the world.

What was the reason for calling attention to "Black Friday?" Nearly everything in the stores are manufactured offshore, with corporations raking in huge profits from cheap labor, while people are without work in the US. This is an economic and moral issue and many in this country are realizing it and want to put a stop to it. Advertisements tell us to consume! consume! but the media doesn't address the consequences others suffer because of this nation's gluttonous over-consumption.

[zenekar]

Here is a panel discussion from Friday's Democracy Now program about the Occupy Movement, sponsored by the Nation Magazine. Some info to chew on for the nay-sayers. But after you watch it, go out talk with foks. As the saying goes, democracy in not a spectator sport!
https://www.democracynow.org/2011/11...re_naomi_klein

[sambacat]

For those who are unaware that the 1% have been tilting the scales of wealth away from the rest of us and who question the intent of the OWS, check out Myths #2, 3 and 4.

MYTH #1: The congressional Super Committee failed because both sides refuse to compromise.

REALITY: The Super Committee failed because Republicans' number one, non-negotiable priority is to protect millionaires and billionaires from paying even one more penny in taxes.1 Democrats repeatedly offered to make deep spending cuts—far deeper than most progressives would like—in exchange for raising taxes on the wealthy and closing corporate loopholes, only to be refused again and again.2 So even though the vast majority of Americans say they want to protect Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid benefits, and raise taxes on the rich and corporations,3 that won't happen until Republicans put aside their extremist stance.

MYTH #2: Nobody knows what Occupy Wall Street is about.

REALITY: Occupy Wall Street may not have a formal list of demands, but anyone who's been paying attention understands the core problems that occupiers are protesting—that corporations have far too much power in our political system, that Wall Street banks crashed our economy but were never held accountable, and that the richest 400 Americans have more wealth than half of all Americans—156 million people—combined.4

MYTH #3: Occupiers should stop protesting and just get a job.

REALITY: As anybody who's looked for a job in the last few years knows, there just aren't jobs out there. That's a big part of why occupiers are protesting. In September, there were four times as many unemployed people as job openings.5 And for those who are lucky enough to find a job, median wages today are lower than they were a decade ago.6

MYTH #4: Occupy Wall Street is intent on provoking violence, especially against banks and the police.

REALITY: Occupations across the country have committed themselves to nonviolent protest, in the greatest traditions of protest movements. Some of their protests have been met with acts of police violence—tear gas, pepper spray, rubber bullets7—but in many cases, protesters have reminded police that the police officers are part of the 99%, too.8 And in the few cases when people have shown up at Occupy demonstrations and committed acts of vandalism, other protesters have even repaired their acts of vandalism.9

MYTH #5: The biggest crisis facing our country is out of control government spending.

REALITY: The two biggest drivers of our deficit—by far—are the economic crash and the Bush tax cuts.10 We have millions of people out of work, corporations hoarding cash, and factories sitting idle. If we put all those people back to work—rebuilding infrastructure, educating our children, and researching new technologies—it'll shrink the deficit and make our economy stronger for the long haul. And we can easily afford it if we make sure the rich—who are taking home a larger percentage of income than any time since 191711—pay their fair share.

Sources:

1. "No, 'both sides' aren't equally to blame for supercommittee failure," The Washington Post, November 21, 2011
https://www.moveon.org/r?r=268071&id...71-LMqvbVx&t=4

2. "Wonkbook: In supercommittee, Dems moved right and Republicans moved righter," The Washington Post, November 22, 2011
https://www.moveon.org/r?r=268072&id...71-LMqvbVx&t=5

3. "CNN Poll: What The Super Committee Produced Is...Exactly What We Don't Want," Talking Points Memo, November 21, 2011
https://www.moveon.org/r?r=268073&id...71-LMqvbVx&t=6

"Medicare, Social Security & The Deficit," National Committee to Preserve Social Security & Medicare, September 2011
https://www.ncpssm.org/pdf/poll.pdf

4. "Michael Moore says 400 Americans have more wealth than half of all Americans combined," Politifact Wisconsin, March 10, 2011
https://www.moveon.org/r?r=268074&id...71-LMqvbVx&t=7

5. "Fact: 4 job seekers per opening in U.S.," CNN, September 12, 2011
https://www.moveon.org/r?r=268075&id...71-LMqvbVx&t=8

6. "Median household income," Wikipedia, Accessed November 22, 2011
https://www.moveon.org/r?r=268076&id...71-LMqvbVx&t=9

7. "Occupy movement: police reaction in pictures," The Guardian, November 21, 2011
https://www.moveon.org/r?r=268077&id...1-LMqvbVx&t=10

8. "Occupy Demonstrators Mark Two Months of Protests," NPR, November 17, 2011
https://www.moveon.org/r?r=268078&id...1-LMqvbVx&t=11

9. "Occupy Oakland protesters assist in cleanup efforts," News 10 ABC, November 3, 2011
https://www.news10.net/news/article/...eanup-efforts-

10. "Economic Downturn and Bush Policies Continue to Drive Large Projected Deficits," Center on Budget and Policy Priorities, May 10, 2011
https://www.cbpp.org/cms/?fa=view&id=3490

11. "Income Inequality Is At An All-Time High: STUDY," The Huffington Post, September 14, 2009
https://www.moveon.org/r?r=268079&id...1-LMqvbVx&t=12