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  1. TopTop #61
    scamperwillow's Avatar
    scamperwillow
     

    Re: CVS/Chase development proposal

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by dominus: View Post
    There will be a total of 3 store locations which are vacant at the Redwood Shopping Center after CVS relocates. Won't that current location become blight? How does the council plan to handle that?
    Plus Rite Aid will probably be vacant soon when CVS drives them out. Maybe we should be focussing on how to redo that parcel and make it part of a pedestrian friendly downtown.
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  3. TopTop #62

    Re: CVS/Chase development proposal

    One main point that ought to still really be emphasized regarding this CVS/Chase thing is
    the traffic. Bad enough they're putting in suburban sprawl, but drive-through means an untenable increase in car traffic at an already disproportionately congested intersection.
    How do they propose to address the vast increase in cars trying to turn left and right from both sides of that development? The developers should not be allowed to simply drop a traffic bomb on our town and then walk away with a pile of cash but no accountability.
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  5. TopTop #63
    Geni Houston's Avatar
    Geni Houston
     

    Re: CVS/Chase development proposal

    A little heavy on the Rite Aid comment - all of a sudden Rite Aid is the good guy?

    But you do bring up an interesting point, Marty. Get in front of those vacancies! Where was all this community input while Pellini's was just sitting there? You can't do nothing and then cry foul.

    I noticed a comment above regarding the "old warehouse area" across the street and what a blight it was and why could not not be mixed use with shops/retail. Sound familiar? I think that was a plan that got shot down.

    If it was Whole Foods moving there would we still have this discussion? Trader Joe's?
    Amy's Kitchen Restaurant?

    This is zoned correctly - it should not be a popularity or community vote. Our input needs to be at different levels. If you want this town to be absolutely no corporate entities - then change it - but you cannot pick and choose what business you like on a piecemeal basis.
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  7. TopTop #64
    scamperwillow's Avatar
    scamperwillow
     

    Re: CVS/Chase development proposal

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by genihouston: View Post
    A little heavy on the Rite Aid comment - all of a sudden Rite Aid is the good guy?
    I wasn't saying Rite Aid was the good guy. I was replying to the post about vacancies. It is not likely our small town can support them both and CVS has a track record of driving out competitors. It just seems like the writing on the wall, that this will drive Rite Aid out and then we have another big vacant space in the middle of downtown. I, by the way, supported the North East plan - because it was a "Plan" that could foresee such things. Too many people thought that it was a development proposal which it was not - only a plan for the area.
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  9. TopTop #65

    Re: CVS/Chase development proposal

    One thing that should probably be added to the mix is lack of good in-store awareness at CVS. Several months ago, employees began finding empty bottles of wine and beer in their public restroom. It seems that a customer or customers took bottles into the bathroom, chugged the contents and then slipped out. On at least one occasion, a single individual drank two 750ml bottles of wine and a large bottle of beer in just a few minutes. This happened early in the morning, indicating serious alcohol problems. I spoke with one of the managers about this and that manager confirmed the details and said they'd had several people mention it to them. This situation was bad enough at the current location but at such as a busy intersection as is currently proposed could result in tragedy. At a minimum, members of the city council should be made aware of this situation.
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  10. TopTop #66
    dominus's Avatar
    dominus
     

    Re: CVS/Chase development proposal

    For me, the issue isn't a matter of eliminating corporations entirely. The issue is what companies represent and are selling. I believe Whole Foods, Trader Joe's & Amy's are far better options for people and the planet because these companies make every effort to do business as non-toxically as possible. Not perfect, perhaps, but a lot better than the generic run of the mill CVS which sells a staggering amount of products from China. A friend of mine recently returned from a trip to China and told me that the pollution over there is terrible. We are in the mess that we are in this country and this world because so much of business is done without a sense of morality. CVS can put in solar panels, plant native species, etc. but the "outside" will not change the "inside." They will still sell a lot of junk which will make it's way into the landfill. They will still impact the traffic situation dramatically. They will still continue to do business as they always have.

    This issue is a matter of morality and what we stand for as a community.
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  11. TopTop #67
    Geni Houston's Avatar
    Geni Houston
     

    Re: CVS/Chase development proposal

    Sorry Marty! It did read like the entire response was to you - only first part and your good point! And I know you supported the Northeast project!

    I was actually responding to several emails all at once.

    And Dominus had good points above, too, however I throughly disagree with (Whole Foods, Trader Joe's & Amy's are far better options for people and the planet) . That's why I chose those three, very different, but that is a thread of a different color!
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  12. TopTop #68
    Howard's Avatar
    Howard
     

    Re: CVS/Chase development proposal

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by genihouston: View Post
    A little heavy on the Rite Aid comment - all of a sudden Rite Aid is the good guy?

    But you do bring up an interesting point, Marty. Get in front of those vacancies! Where was all this community input while Pellini's was just sitting there? You can't do nothing and then cry foul.

    I noticed a comment above regarding the "old warehouse area" across the street and what a blight it was and why could not not be mixed use with shops/retail. Sound familiar? I think that was a plan that got shot down.

    If it was Whole Foods moving there would we still have this discussion? Trader Joe's?
    Amy's Kitchen Restaurant?

    This is zoned correctly - it should not be a popularity or community vote. Our input needs to be at different levels. If you want this town to be absolutely no corporate entities - then change it - but you cannot pick and choose what business you like on a piecemeal basis.
    I find this discussion a bit ironic. Some of the very same people opposed to this project (not you Marty) were opposed to the Northeast Area Plan that would have made this a much more Sebastopol friendly project. The plan included incentives for green building, affordable housing, human scale architecture, public uses, etc. Buildings were to be located near the street and parking could have been put in structures away from high profile corners. The opposition, along with the council majority, thought that no plan meant no new development. They convinced many voters that a lack of a plan would keep things the way they are. Welcome to the real world.
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  13. TopTop #69
    scamperwillow's Avatar
    scamperwillow
     

    Re: CVS/Chase development proposal

    So what happened tonight???? I wasn't able to be there. Details please? Will there be another meeting??
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  14. TopTop #70
    tommy's Avatar
    tommy
     

    Re: CVS/Chase development proposal

    I was at the meeting & spoke, tho I didn't stay after the public comments. I believe Ms Mayor was there in the back. A member of the Planning Commission told me that for some reason their critical comments were not included in the minutes that went to City Council. The implication was that this may have resulted in the City Council approving the project.

    All of the approx 15 or so people who spoke were opposed to either the "shopping center" design, Chase and CVS residing on this prominent site, or design details... with the exception of a local business owner who lives in Forestville and who liked the project.

    I thought the most important comments were: desire for mixed use pedestrian oriented development, the green sustainable desire to save and rehab the Pellini building, design comments about the buildings & parking, and legal questions about the negative declaration and environmental issues.

    People I spoke to said the Design Review could send it back to the Planning Commission, I think essentially rejecting it, and that the City Council could rescind their approval.



    Quote Posted in reply to the post by scamperwillow: View Post
    So what happened tonight???? I wasn't able to be there. Details please? Will there be another meeting??
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  16. TopTop #71
    scamperwillow's Avatar
    scamperwillow
     

    Re: CVS/Chase development proposal

    Thanks Tommy! Anyone stay to the end? how did it end? Was the public comment period continued? Was it sent back to Planning Commission? What was the final result?


    Quote Posted in reply to the post by tommy: View Post
    I was at the meeting & spoke, tho I didn't stay after the public comments. I believe Ms Mayor was there in the back. A member of the Planning Commission told me that for some reason their critical comments were not included in the minutes that went to City Council. The implication was that this may have resulted in the City Council approving the project.

    All of the approx 15 or so people who spoke were opposed to either the "shopping center" design, Chase and CVS residing on this prominent site, or design details... with the exception of a local business owner who lives in Forestville and who liked the project.

    I thought the most important comments were: desire for mixed use pedestrian oriented development, the green sustainable desire to save and rehab the Pellini building, design comments about the buildings & parking, and legal questions about the negative declaration and environmental issues.

    People I spoke to said the Design Review could send it back to the Planning Commission, I think essentially rejecting it, and that the City Council could rescind their approval.
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  17. TopTop #72
    scamperwillow's Avatar
    scamperwillow
     

    Re: CVS/Chase development proposal

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by oliviathunderkitty: View Post
    One thing that should probably be added to the mix is lack of good in-store awareness at CVS. Several months ago, employees began finding empty bottles of wine and beer in their public restroom. It seems that a customer or customers took bottles into the bathroom, chugged the contents and then slipped out. On at least one occasion, a single individual drank two 750ml bottles of wine and a large bottle of beer in just a few minutes. This happened early in the morning, indicating serious alcohol problems. I spoke with one of the managers about this and that manager confirmed the details and said they'd had several people mention it to them. This situation was bad enough at the current location but at such as a busy intersection as is currently proposed could result in tragedy. At a minimum, members of the city council should be made aware of this situation.
    Yikes! and that person actually "walked" out??
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  18. TopTop #73

    Re: CVS/Chase development proposal

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by scamperwillow: View Post
    Yikes! and that person actually "walked" out??
    Yes, that person actually walked out, got into a car and drove away. Frightening.
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  19. TopTop #74
    1104GT's Avatar
    1104GT
     

    Re: CVS/Chase development proposal

    Thanks to all who attended the design review meeting and spoke their concerns about the CVS project. I think the community's comments were heard and, judging by the comments of the committee, taken seriously. I stayed until the end and heard all of the committee members comments. Many of them echoed our concerns and I think gave the applicant the impression that they were far from having an acceptable solution.

    It is important that we all attend these meetings and stay to hear what our representatives have to say. It's one thing to speak and hear community input, but if we don't stay, we don't know if we are heard. Leaving the meeting takes the heat off and makes the board members think we just came to vent. If we wont invest the same amount of time as the board members, our level conviction will be questioned.

    It's important to understand that this was a "Preliminary Review", not a response to a formal application or proposal. Since this was a preliminary review, no action was taken or decisions made by the committee. My understanding is that the applicant will take the input from the meeting and revise their plans to respond to the comments or not, depending on how much weight they place on each suggestion or comment. They will then make a formal application. That means that this process is really just beginning. We need to continue to voice our concerns and make sure the next version responds to our input, especially once a formal application is made. That's when it will really count.

    Since this project conforms to our lame zoning and our General Plan is fairly vague, my opinion is that design review is our best opportunity to demand an outstanding project. The challenge is that our design review committee typically deals with fairly minor issues on smaller projects and is not used to having to comment on larger issues like urban design and is not accustomed to wielding significant power. We need to continue to support and encourage their efforts in a positive way and let them know that we support their desire for a truly outstanding project on this property and nothing short of outstanding will do. Like I said when I spoke, if this project doesn't make our downtown significantly better, it isn't good enough.
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  21. TopTop #75
    scamperwillow's Avatar
    scamperwillow
     

    Re: CVS/Chase development proposal

    Thanks for your report! Did they say when they will be back again? Did you get a sense of what things in particular they were wanting improvement on?


    Quote Posted in reply to the post by 1104GT: View Post
    Thanks to all who attended the design review meeting and spoke their concerns about the CVS project. I think the community's comments were heard and, judging by the comments of the committee, taken seriously. I stayed until the end and heard all of the committee members comments. Many of them echoed our concerns and I think gave the applicant the impression that they were far from having an acceptable solution.

    It is important that we all attend these meetings and stay to hear what our representatives have to say. It's one thing to speak and hear community input, but if we don't stay, we don't know if we are heard. Leaving the meeting takes the heat off and makes the board members think we just came to vent. If we wont invest the same amount of time as the board members, our level conviction will be questioned.

    It's important to understand that this was a "Preliminary Review", not a response to a formal application or proposal. Since this was a preliminary review, no action was taken or decisions made by the committee. My understanding is that the applicant will take the input from the meeting and revise their plans to respond to the comments or not, depending on how much weight they place on each suggestion or comment. They will then make a formal application. That means that this process is really just beginning. We need to continue to voice our concerns and make sure the next version responds to our input, especially once a formal application is made. That's when it will really count.

    Since this project conforms to our lame zoning and our General Plan is fairly vague, my opinion is that design review is our best opportunity to demand an outstanding project. The challenge is that our design review committee typically deals with fairly minor issues on smaller projects and is not used to having to comment on larger issues like urban design and is not accustomed to wielding significant power. We need to continue to support and encourage their efforts in a positive way and let them know that we support their desire for a truly outstanding project on this property and nothing short of outstanding will do. Like I said when I spoke, if this project doesn't make our downtown significantly better, it isn't good enough.
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  22. TopTop #76

    Re: CVS/Chase development proposal

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by Pterosapiens: View Post
    Most likely this was one or two people too young to buy booze legally, or someone in need but unable to afford it going in, grabbing a bottle or two and then going into the bathroom and transferring the contents into one or two of those metal or plastic water bottles made for hiking or biking - I doubt anything was drunk on the premises, way too risky.
    Actually, this is not the case at all. The alcohol was indeed consumed on the premises by someone well over the age of 21 with a very serious alcohol problem. I know one of the individuals who did this and have verified the accuracy of the accusations. I wouldn't divulge their personal information, of course, and I don't know how many others may have done something similar. But I do know about this one, know that it was on more than one occasion, know that the alcohol was consumed on premise and know that the individual drove away after consuming it. This took place in August, 2010, and possibly in September, as well.
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  23. TopTop #77
    Dixon's Avatar
    Dixon
     

    Re: CVS/Chase development proposal

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by Pterosapiens: View Post
    I doubt anything was drunk on the premises, way too risky.
    Don't bet on it! When I used to work in mental health and took a mental health client from the residential facility to the dentist's office, the mouthwash bottles in the dentist's bathroom turned up empty real quick. My client was drinking all the mouthwash for the alcohol in it. We had to get special "mouth rinse" without alcohol for the residential facility. And it's not just mentally ill people who do this.
    Last edited by Dixon; 08-06-2011 at 02:48 AM.
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  25. TopTop #78
    scamperwillow's Avatar
    scamperwillow
     

    Re: CVS/Chase development proposal

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by Dixon: View Post
    Don't bet on it! When I used to work in mental health and took a mental health client from the residential facility to the dentists's office, the mouthwash bottles in the dentist's bathroom turned up empty real quick. My client was drinking all the mouthwash for the alcohol in it. We had to get special "mouth rinse" without alcohol for the residential facility. And it's not just mentally ill people who do this.
    Eeeeeeeew!
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  26. TopTop #79
    Barry's Avatar
    Barry
    Founder & Moderator

    Re: CVS/Chase development proposal


    Sebastopol group files suit demanding traffic study for new pharmacy

    BY BOB NORBERG
    THE PRESS DEMOCRAT
    Published: Tuesday, August 9, 2011 at 5:41 p.m.



    A Sebastopol group has filed a lawsuit challenging the City Council action that lets a CVS Pharmacy proposal proceed without a full environmental impact report.

    The suit alleges that the council did not take into consideration traffic that would be generated by a pharmacy and bank, both with drive-through service, and by two other planned projects.

    “They try to do these things like islands,” said Helen Shane of The Committee for Small Town Sebastopol. “In a town of 7,800 population, it doesn’t work.”

    The suit asks that the City Council’s decision be nullified and the proposal be sent back to the city’s Planning Commission until a full environmental impact report is done.

    The suit was filed Monday in Sonoma County Superior Court.

    Armstrong Development Properties Inc. of Sacramento proposes building a 14,576-square-foot CVS Pharmacy and a 4,327-square-foot Chase Bank branch at the site of the vacant Pellini Chevrolet dealership.

    It would be a $10 million project on 2.4 acres in one of Sebastopol’s most prominent locations and at one of Sebastopol’s busiest intersections.

    The existing CVS Pharmacy in the Redwood Market would move to the new location. It would be a smaller store than the existing pharmacy, but have a drive-through window.

    The project generated controversy when it was heard by the Planning Commission, which on June 14 decided there should be a full impact report.

    After a four-hour public hearing on July 5, the City Council sided with the developer and voted 4-1 to allow the project to proceed without a full environmental impact report. Councilwoman Sarah Gurney opposed the action.

    The suit contends that the pharmacy and bank branch will generate additional traffic which needs to be studied in detail.

    In addition, the suit contends that traffic study should include an analysis of traffic associated with two projects that are still in the proposal stage.

    Those are the Barlow Project, which calls for a farmers market, artist studios and children’s playground, and the proposed Laguna Vista housing project, which calls for a 145 housing units.

    The greenhouse gas emissions from all that traffic would also worsen climate change and may cause flooding and environmental damage, the suit contends.

    City Attorney Larry McLaughlin defended the City Council action.

    “From staff’s point of view, we don’t agree, we do believe that proper analysis was done,” McLaughlin said.

    A spokesman for Armstrong Development Properties was not available Tuesday.

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  28. TopTop #80
    scamperwillow's Avatar
    scamperwillow
     

    Re: CVS/Chase development proposal

    Does anyone know when this is coming back to Design Review?
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  29. TopTop #81
    Magick's Avatar
    Magick
     

    Re: CVS/Chase development proposal


    Who are we Sebastopol?

    by Magick Altman

    Published: Wednesday, August 3, 2011 3:52 PM PDT
    Are we a community that just gives in when the corporate world puts the screws on? Will we still pretend to feel good about ourselves bicycling to work in the traffic jam caused by drive-thru windows at CVS and Chase as they suck the money out of our town?

    Is the General Plan just a bundle of ‘aspirations’ or the constitution of a small town that has laid down policies and goals to maintain our integrity?


    Towns across the country are fighting CVS: check out
    www.newrules.org. We need to lead the way by fulfilling our destiny as a model of a locally owned, sustainable economy.

    Every day so many people come to me and say what can we do about CVS? People sense the domino affect about to happen. We stopped the last attempts to remake this town in the Northeast area, NEAP, by upholding our General Plan, (GP), which is our constitution. The GP is a carefully crafted legal document that took years to make by citizens with wisdom and foresight.


    During hearings on the NEAP a split surfaced in our community that was used by CVS to divide and conquer.


    But I don’t think we are really so far apart in what we want.


    Actually, most people that opposed NEAP would agree that density has its advantages when it creates space for local, sustainable businesses and truly affordable housing.


    But growth in and of itself is no longer a good thing. Water supply and level of service costs can no longer be numbers that are fudged by paid consultants.


    We need to get down to reality here. We are meant to be a model not a smug little town that praises itself for recycling and solar that is placed on corporate generic outlets that pay lousy wages here and whose products are made by children in Southeast Asia.


    While the Pellinis have been stalwarts of our town it is truly sad that they turned away two highly respected and innovative local businesses as soon as they had a “Big Fish” on the line. Ned Kahn, a world-renowned artist, and The Maker’s Fair, owned by O’Reilly, would’ve been ideal.


    So do we actually want to support local flavor with a global vision or is that just a branding that we paid $50,000 for to fool ourselves into thinking we care?


    It is time for the Council to revisit this project and galvanize all the experience of city staff to find a way to legally defeat this proposal.


    Send it back to the courageous Planning Commission and work as a team to write the findings. We already have Scott Stegeman’s excellent document, Helen Shane and Paul-Andre Schabracq’s clear examination of accumulated affects, Holly Hansen’s testimony about the completely inappropriate nature of this proposal and the voices of so many others.


    Our council needs to stop fearing lawsuits. Fear is not a place to act from; it is where you go to give up.


    And let’s brainstorm and use all the tools in our toolbox. How about a boycott: “If They Build It We Won’t Come”? The SESAW committee already had over 600 signatures against it, lets make it 6,000 including all of West county’s shoppers. CVS will cut their losses and go take its predator practices somewhere else.


    And when they do, we can tell that town how to get rid of them, until town-by-town we say no to everything that is wrong with this world today.


    And then when we shop in our farmer’s markets and see young people staying in our community we can feel we’ve done the right thing. We can offer cheap housing and financial support for incubator businesses and have rooftop gardens watered with greywater systems.


    We can daylight creeks, practice permaculture, and bring in classrooms of students to learn the methodology to take this model into the world.


    Miracles are made with the courage to simply do what’s right when what’s wrong is staring you in the face.


    Lets come together and make beauty, grow great food, dance to homegrown music and make our words mean what they say.


    Magick is a Sebastopol resident and can be reached at [email protected] for additional information.
    Last edited by Barry; 08-15-2011 at 05:53 PM.
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  31. TopTop #82
    Praksys's Avatar
    Praksys
     

    Issue a Bond? Back proven innovators/leaders

    Enliven downtown, attract eco/edu tourists and empower youth with useful skills for the future:

    Maybe we should provide scientists, engineers, tech leaders and art/science innovators funding incentives for running for political office. Phil Harriman, Robert Porter, Ned Kahn, Dale Dougherty, Bill Seidel, Dan Smith and many more local residents may have more gumption, practical ideas and solutions for local and regional issues than many of our elected officials. Certainly Sonoma County fares better than most when it comes to practical innovations; from the water agency’s solar advocacy to the county supervisors daring dive into chicken sh__ power. At least they are trying! Too bad we can’t find a way to purchase the Pellini property and put it into the hands of the innovators mentioned above. A hands-on Insitu U. – A training and demonstration Exploratorium Maker Facility with dormitories and learning environment for youth from our own region and beyond. The ongoing projects could be on display for all to see right on the main corner and entrance to Sebastopol. A fun place to play, make and show! With a well thought out financial plan, it might be possible to issue a corporate or even municipal bond to purchase and build a facility that attracts visitors from outside the region. If a stable income stream can be developed over time it can then support a bond. Could an ‘Exploratorium North’ with a ‘Maker Place’ attract a growing revenue stream and enliven our economy?
    Daniel Osmer, Realtor
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  33. TopTop #83
    Geni Houston's Avatar
    Geni Houston
     

    Re: CVS/Chase development proposal

    It is so frustrating to continually read and hear the "fact" spouted when they have no bearing on the truth. Go ahead, give you opinion, but don't lie or exaggerate to get your point accross.

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by Magick: View Post
    While the Pellinis have been stalwarts of our town it is truly sad that they turned away two highly respected and innovative local businesses as soon as they had a “Big Fish” on the line. Ned Kahn, a world-renowned artist, and The Maker’s Fair, owned by O’Reilly, would’ve been ideal.

    Read the current edition of the Sonoma West Times & News to get the real truth, directly from the Pellinis'.
    Anyone could have just asked them.

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by Magick: View Post
    So do we actually want to support local flavor with a global vision or is that just a branding that we paid $50,000 for to fool ourselves into thinking we care?


    The City of Sebastopol and certainly not the quoter is not pay for $50,000 for a branding program. The Sebastopol Area Chamber of Commerce, a membership organization supporting Commerce contracted the program for $48,000 for which the City contributed $10,000.

    An email has been circulating that Marshalls is now coming to town to replace CVS in the Redwood Market. Heck, it may be true, but I also heard Olivers and Ross are coming.
    What's a small town girl like me to believe?

    Activism is powerful - it is useful - it is necessary - but not when you distort the truth to get there.

    Last edited by Barry; 08-19-2011 at 04:50 PM.
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  35. TopTop #84
    Magick's Avatar
    Magick
     

    Re: CVS/Chase development proposal

    I just want to clarify that in the article I did not state what kind of interest was shown by Ned Kahn and O'Reilly as you can see by the quote you mentioned. Yes, I am aware that the Chamber paid the larger portion of the branding costs and I should've been more clear about that. There was no intention to deceive and your clarification is correct.
    I stand by my article and the principles that were stated therein. I support respectful dialogue.
    Quote Posted in reply to the post by genihouston: View Post
    [
    It is so frustrating to continually read and hear the "fact" spouted when they have no bearing on the truth. Go ahead, give you opinion, but don't lie or exaggerate to get your point accross.

    Quoted: While the Pellinis have been stalwarts of our town it is truly sad that they turned away two highly respected and innovative local businesses as soon as they had a “Big Fish” on the line. Ned Kahn, a world-renowned artist, and The Maker’s Fair, owned by O’Reilly, would’ve been ideal.

    Read the current edition of the Sonoma West Times & News to get the real truth, directly from the Pellinis'.
    Anyone could have just asked them.

    Quoted: So do we actually want to support local flavor with a global vision or is that just a branding that we paid $50,000 for to fool ourselves into thinking we care?


    The City of Sebastopol and certainly not the quoter is not pay for $50,000 for a branding program. The Sebastopol Area Chamber of Commerce, a membership organization supporting Commerce contracted the program for $48,000 for which the City contributed $10,000.

    An email has been circulating that Marshalls is now coming to town to replace CVS in the Redwood Market. Heck, it may be true, but I also heard Olivers and Ross are coming.
    What's a small town girl like me to believe?

    Activism is powerful - it is useful - it is necessary - but not when you distort the truth to get there.

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  36. TopTop #85
    scamperwillow's Avatar
    scamperwillow
     

    Re: CVS/Chase development proposal

    I for one like the idea of a Marshall's or Ross coming to town. Maybe they are chain stores, but wouldn't it be nice to have some affordable clothing for sale here in town without having to drive around to get it? And underwear!

    Quote An email has been circulating that Marshalls is now coming to town to replace CVS in the Redwood Market. Heck, it may be true, but I also heard Olivers and Ross are coming.
    What's a small town girl like me to believe?

    Activism is powerful - it is useful - it is necessary - but not when you distort the truth to get there.

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  37. TopTop #86
    Magick's Avatar
    Magick
     

    Re: CVS/Chase development proposal

    We may think that clothes are less expensive until you look at the hidden costs

    1) Cheap labor in poor countries means 12 -16 hour days, in unhealthy factories often including child labor where any attempt to organize is met by firings and often blacklisting.

    2) Corporations extracting nature's riches and producing materials choose countries with lax environmental laws that perpetuate pollution and degradation of nature and the people in these exploited areas do not see any financial returns, only the corporations.

    3) The use of fossil fuels to transport the products all the way across the world is wasteful, polluting and unsustainable.
    There are people right here making clothing, some from recycled materials, who are not transporting long distances, exploiting labor or the environment.

    Not to mention the exploitation of the labor force in the stores and the lack of a service because there are so few employees all they have time for is restocking and cleaning.

    So what is the the real cost in human lives and our beautiful world?
    Think about it...Can we pretend any longer not to know?


    I know that people reading this are not intentionally being apart of this tragedy I know you are at heart good people please just think about.

    We need to look at our values and the REAL cost of cheap products.

    If you have any doubts about this just check the labels and research the companies and note where they are made. Liz Claiborne is a classic example.

    Here is a summary of the conditions of a company that manufactures for Liz Claiborne
    Doall Factory Conditions (Summary) Korean owned company in El Salvador....


    • Systematic and widespread violation of basic human and worker rights.
    • 13-to-15-hour workshifts; 85-to-92-hour work weeks.
    • Forced Overtime--often from 6:45 a.m. to 10:30 p.m.--mandatory all-night shifts; working seven days a week. Typically, one worker had just three days off in a nine-month period. Workers complain that their feet swell up due to the excessively long hours--most take a "No Doze" stimulant to stay awake.
    • 60-cent-an-hour wages: The 60-cent-an-hour wage is well below subsistence levels, meeting only 51 percent of the basic basket of goods necessary to survive in relative poverty, and only 27 percent of what it would cost to live poorly, but with a modicum of decency (though, of course, without luxuries or savings.)
    • Pregnancy Tests--New workers are tested and fired if they are pregnant.
    • Bathroom visits are strictly monitored, and limited to two uses per day.
    • No sick days are given, even to a mother whose child is seriously ill. Permission to use the Social Security health clinic is almost never granted.
    • High production goals, which are arbitrarily raised; pressure to meet those goals. Supervisors yell and curse at the workers.
    • Fear and intimidation--At the first sign of a grievance the leaders are fired. At the mere hint of a union, those suspected are immediately, and illegally, fired.
    • Eighteen workers were fired on August 5 for daring to protest being forced to work overtime on a major national holiday--also, Doall suspected these workers might attempt to organize a union.
    • At least five organizing drives at Doall factories have been crushed with illegal firings.
    • No worker had heard of the Liz Claiborne Code of Conduct--and certainly no explanation was ever given to the workers regarding their basic rights that the code is supposed to guarantee. Visits by North American company representatives are staged events. The factory is cleaned ahead of time. Workers are pre-chosen by Doall managers to speak with the North Americans. No attempt has ever been made to meet with workers in a safe location, where they would be free to speak.
    • Enormous Exploitation--The young Salvadoran women at Doall are paid just 84 cents for every $194 Liz Claiborne jacket they sew! The sewers wages equal just 4/10ths of 1 percent of the sales price of the Liz Claiborne jacket.
    • Systematic and widespread violation of basic human and worker rights.
    • 13-to-15-hour workshifts; 85-to-92-hour work weeks.
    • Forced Overtime--often from 6:45 a.m. to 10:30 p.m.--mandatory all-night shifts; working seven days a week. Typically, one worker had just three days off in a nine-month period. Workers complain that their feet swell up due to the excessively long hours--most take a "No Doze" stimulant to stay awake.
    • 60-cent-an-hour wages: The 60-cent-an-hour wage is well below subsistence levels, meeting only 51 percent of the basic basket of goods necessary to survive in relative poverty, and only 27 percent of what it would cost to live poorly, but with a modicum of decency (though, of course, without luxuries or savings.)
    • Pregnancy Tests--New workers are tested and fired if they are pregnant.
    • Bathroom visits are strictly monitored, and limited to two uses per day.
    • No sick days are given, even to a mother whose child is seriously ill. Permission to use the Social Security health clinic is almost never granted.
    • High production goals, which are arbitrarily raised; pressure to meet those goals. Supervisors yell and curse at the workers.
    • Fear and intimidation--At the first sign of a grievance the leaders are fired. At the mere hint of a union, those suspected are immediately, and illegally, fired.
    • Eighteen workers were fired on August 5 for daring to protest being forced to work overtime on a major national holiday--also, Doall suspected these workers might attempt to organize a union.
    • At least five organizing drives at Doall factories have been crushed with illegal firings.
    • No worker had heard of the Liz Claiborne Code of Conduct--and certainly no explanation was ever given to the workers regarding their basic rights that the code is supposed to guarantee. Visits by North American company representatives are staged events. The factory is cleaned ahead of time. Workers are pre-chosen by Doall managers to speak with the North Americans. No attempt has ever been made to meet with workers in a safe location, where they would be free to speak.
    • Enormous Exploitation--The young Salvadoran women at Doall are paid just 84 cents for every $194 Liz Claiborne jacket they sew! The sewers wages equal just 4/10ths of 1 percent of the sales price of the Liz Claiborne jacket.
    • No visitors are allowed at the Doall factories, which operate behind locked metal gates, barbed wire and heavily armed guards.

    In August and September 1998, the National Labor Committee arranged several meetings in safe locations with Doall workers, who provided the following information on factory conditions. The workers were very afraid, explaining they could be fired for speaking to us. The National Labor Committee has been tracking conditions at Doall since 1995, at which point we informed Liz Claiborne of the numerous serious violations. The company took no real action.

    Yours in truth, Magick
    Quote Posted in reply to the post by scamperwillow: View Post
    I for one like the idea of a Marshall's or Ross coming to town. Maybe they are chain stores, but wouldn't it be nice to have some affordable clothing for sale here in town without having to drive around to get it? And underwear!
    Last edited by Barry; 08-19-2011 at 04:57 PM.
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  39. TopTop #87
    Weiser's Avatar
    Weiser
     

    Re: CVS/Chase development proposal

    Even if everything you say is the gospel truth your still missing the point. Its not up to the city council and the planning commission to make consumer decisions for everyone. If people agree that the store is a bad actor then they won't shop there and the business will fail. Prohibition doesn't work and its an affront to people who are perfectly capable of making their own choices.

    Mark
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  40. TopTop #88
    Magick's Avatar
    Magick
     

    Re: CVS/Chase development proposal

    I was not referring to the decision making process of Sebastopol when I was speaking of the exploitative practices of the corporate world. But on that note, Sonoma is considering a big box ban and Community Impact Reports are also an tool in the local toolbox. You might want to research these options. The Living Wage Coalition can be of help.
    I was asking us to consider our relationship to "cheap imports" of free but not fair trade. I do advocate boycotts as effective methods to choose, as a community and a people, what kind of world we want to sustain.
    Now, will you consider the information I related about the sad reality of cheap merchandise?
    Saw a great bumper sticker today, 'Non-judgment day draws near', may we learn compassionate action and find common ground, I am willing, and learning and growing in this direction...can we help each other?
    Quote Posted in reply to the post by banjoguy: View Post
    Even if everything you say is the gospel truth your still missing the point. Its not up to the city council and the planning commission to make consumer decisions for everyone. If people agree that the store is a bad actor then they won't shop there and the business will fail. Prohibition doesn't work and its an affront to people who are perfectly capable of making their own choices.

    Mark
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  41. TopTop #89
    scamperwillow's Avatar
    scamperwillow
     

    Re: CVS/Chase development proposal

    This sure does sound awful! What country is this in?

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by Magick: View Post

    We need to look at our values and the REAL cost of cheap products.
    If you have any doubts about this just check the labels and research the companies and note where they are made.
    Liz Claiborne is a classic example.
    Here is a summary of the conditions of a company that manufactures for Liz Claiborne
    Doall Factory Conditions (Summary) Korean owned company in El Salvador....

    Systematic and widespread violation of basic human and worker rights.
    13-to-15-hour workshifts; 85-to-92-hour work weeks.
    ...
    Last edited by Barry; 08-19-2011 at 04:59 PM.
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  42. TopTop #90
    John Eder's Avatar
    John Eder
    Former Seb City Council Member

    Re: CVS/Chase development proposal

    The title of this thread is "CVS/Chase development proposal". While the issues of working conditions in other countries, the power of large corporations, people drinking in store bathrooms, what chain store(s) may be coming to our town, etc. are all important and deserve to be discussed, it looks like we may have taken our eye off of the ball. While the debate continues over issues that have very little, if any, tangible impact on the future of this project, the developers proceed forward with their plans to break ground.

    It would seem as if most people would generally fall into one of five categories regarding the proposed CVS/Chase development:

    1.) Ardent supporter- there are more than you may think, and they can be formidable, especially with friends in high places.

    2.) Ardent opponent to any development in Sebastopol- what are you doing to actively stop the progress of this proposal?
    Complaining on this forum is of little impact. While it may feel righteous, it won't stop the bulldozers. Are you supporting
    ($) the lawsuit against the City Council approval of the project that seeks to have an EIR completed for the project?

    3.) Ardent opponent to this specific development in Sebastopol- what are you doing to actively stop the progress of this
    proposal and/or bring a realistic, economically-viable alternative up for consideration? Again, complaining here is of little
    impact- watch out for the bulldozers. Are you supporting ($) the lawsuit against the City Council?

    4.) Cautiously resigned to the high likelihood that this project will get built- what are you doing to work towards maximizing
    it's potential aesthetically, functionally and environmentally? At least when it is built, some influence of the community
    may be incorporated into it.

    5.) Apathetic- otherwise occupied, "whatever...."

    None of these positions is "better" or "more correct" than any of the others; we are all different. We must all ask ourselves what we are doing to actively promote our beliefs in a manner that has a tangible impact on this project. I do not believe that either the Sebastopol City Council or Armstrong Development Properties, Inc. will be dissuaded from moving forward as a result of discussions regarding the evils of cheap underwear. They may actually appreciate that we, as a community, appear to be so distracted from their ongoing activities.

    In my view, it comes down to taking one of four courses of action: Join the fight to stop it, join the fight to change it to a different/better project, join the fight to make it the best project that it can be, or sit back and watch the wrecking ball, either through apathy or support for the project...
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