American Pride

[Tars]

The Pew Research Center

just published a poll, about which it said,"A new national survey by the Pew Research Center for the People & the Press, conducted June 24-27 among 1,001 adults, finds that more than eight-in-ten (83%) say they are either extremely proud (52%) or very proud (31%) to be an American. Just 14% say they are moderately proud (8%) or have little or no pride (6%) in being an American."

Given that it is the birthday of the United States, it might be an appropriate time for Sonoma County residents, visitors to WaccoBB, to indicate our individual perspectives on "American Pride".

(results are anonymous)

["Mad" Miles]

Tars,

You probably mean well with this poll, but like many of them over the past few years here, the question is too general and leaves out important aspects of the issue being raised.

It's not as bad as some of the polls which ask leading questions that are essentially irrelevant to the real issue. That's why I usually ignore the polls here. I can't account for the motivations of other non-responders, but the low participation rates may indicate that I'm not alone in this.

I might answer yes to the following choice:

I'm both proud and ashamed of my country. It has done great things and terrible, excreble things. The general values represented by the idea of American (U.S.) democracy are admirable and represent the best of what it means to be human in a community of humans. But the execution of those values, for the many, not the few, leaves so much to be desired that I often think that those values are only paid lip service and are not deeply held by those in power, and those who benefit from the social and economic structure of our nation. Still, I find many historical events, such as in the Revolutionary War, The Civil War, WWI and WWII, just to name some of the most painful episodes in our history, to be achingly, tragically beautiful and cause me to admire the sacrifices and courage of large numbers of U.S. citizens. So, Patriotism for me, is a complex, nuanced and painful question. If patriotism is defined as loving my country unconditionally, then I'm not a patriot. If it is possible to love critically, discriminating between the good and bad aspects of my country, regarding its history and its current situation, then yes, I love my country with immense intensity, and in that sense, I'm a patriot.

Often I feel that that love is tainted and unrequited. Although how a social construct such as a nation can have feelings of any kind, is a mystery to me! And a subject for discussion another day. I suppose one argument could be that love for ones country is necessarily a one way street, and that's not a bad thing.

And what is a "country", a "nation"? Is it the people? The land? The values espoused? Its history? Its Arts? It's Cultures? (A particularly complex phenomenon in the case of the USA) The government? The actions of the government? The actions of various of its people? All of the above?


Perhaps the problem I have with these polls is that they try to quantify the unquantifiable. The difficult issues that interest me can't simply be described in numbers, but can only be addressed by a discussion of the qualities of the issues. Statistics can illustrate complex social phenomena, so it's not simply a quantity vs. quality distinction. My bias is to emphasize quality when talking about what is meaningful in life.

Thanks for asking, Happy Fourth!

[Tars]

You probably mean well with this poll, but like many of them over the past few years here, the question is too general and leaves out important aspects of the issue being raised.

Thanks for your response. Since I'm the one who posted the poll, I obviously see it quite differently than you do. First, it's not intended as a survey, so it doesn't try to include every possible opinion about pride in America. But rather, as is the basic intention of polls, I tried to present a handful of choices, which broadly cover the probable range of opinion, with a catch-all "other" at the end.

My intention with the poll, or with any poll I'd post, is to encourage participation, and provoke discussion on a general subject. If people weren't allowed to post comments on the poll thread, I wouldn't post it in the first place.

Another main purpose of a poll is to provide a means for "lurkers" to give their opinion, without risking potential bruised feelings by having someone else reject their opinion. Again the intention is to encourage participation by lurkers, who, if the membership numbers are correct, probably comprise over 98% of the visitors here. I'd hope that they'd feel after choosing an option, that it might be safe after all to venture commenting on topics here.

Have a great holiday weekend y'all!

[someguy]

Anyone know why Barry's answer is 42? WTF is that all about? https://www.waccobb.net/forums/feedb...tml#post117528

[Larry Robinson]

If I had won the lottery - which I suppose I did by being born white in America in the 1940s - I would feel grateful and lucky. But proud? That word doesn't really apply.

[theindependenteye]

If you don't know about "42", you have a treat coming. Dig up "Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy."

As concerns my own feeling about the US of A, I think it's a great idea. I devoutly hope we all survive its present fits and stutters and don't surrender to the depair of feeling wholly owned by sociopathic greedheads. Be kind to one another, friends, ring the bells that still can ring, and remember how the light gets in.

Elizabeth Fuller

[Valley Oak]

Normally, I would have a great deal to say about this but my honest opinion would get me censored and into trouble.

[someguy]

No pride here.

[Barry]

No pride here.

What country would you be proud to be from?

[someguy]

What country would you be proud to be from?

I can't really think of one.

[alanora]

Am not sure that pride is a useful or desirable emotion or state of being. Seems like it would then lead to desire to protect a sense of seperateness that would be better off not protected. Would prefer a sense of unity. Can we be proud to be human or global citizens or members of the galactic confederate, or all parts of the "one" instead?

The Pew Research Center

just published a poll, about which it said,"A new national survey by the Pew Research Center for the People & the Press, conducted June 24-27 among 1,001 adults, finds that more than eight-in-ten (83%) say they are either extremely proud (52%) or very proud (31%) to be an American. Just 14% say they are moderately proud (8%) or have little or no pride (6%) in being an American."

Given that it is the birthday of the United States, it might be an appropriate time for Sonoma County residents, visitors to WaccoBB, to indicate our individual perspectives on "American Pride".

(results are anonymous)

[Valley Oak]

I found an honest reply that I can make to this thread. It is the lyrics to Bruce Springsteen's "Born In the USA." Although this only expresses a very small part of what I would like to say, it is at least something, however miniscule:

Born down in a dead man's town
The first kick I took was when I hit the ground
You end up like a dog that's been beat too much
'Til you spend half your life just covering up

[chorus:]
Born in the U.S.A.
Born in the U.S.A.
Born in the U.S.A.
Born in the U.S.A.

I got in a little hometown jam
And so they put a rifle in my hands
Sent me off to Vietnam
To go and kill the yellow man

[chorus]

Come back home to the refinery
Hiring man says "Son if it was up to me"
I go down to see the V.A. man
He said "Son don't you understand"

[chorus]

I had a buddy at Khe Sahn
Fighting off the Viet Cong
They're still there, he's all gone
He had a little girl in Saigon
I got a picture of him in her arms

Down in the shadow of the penitentiary
Out by the gas fires of the refinery
I'm ten years down the road
Nowhere to run, ain't got nowhere to go

I'm a long gone Daddy in the U.S.A.
Born in the U.S.A.
I'm a cool rocking Daddy in the U.S.A.
Born in the U.S.A.

[Barry]

I think pride can be healthy, as in being proud of your home or your family.

I see countries as a (massive) expansion of the concept of family, which includes "us" and "them" (not family).

Am not sure that pride is a useful or desirable emotion or state of being. Seems like it would then lead to desire to protect a sense of separateness that would be better off not protected. Would prefer a sense of unity. Can we be proud to be human or global citizens or members of the galactic confederate, or all parts of the "one" instead?

[podfish]

brings to mind another relevant quote (which I'll misquote, since I can't find the real thing:)
q: what do you think of American civilization?
a: I think it'd be a great idea.

[quote=theindependenteye;117593].... As concerns my own feeling about the US of A, I think it's a great idea.... /quote]

[alanora]

How healthy is an "us and them" mentality? When does pride turn to arrogance? Perhaps it is semantics, perhaps gender based, I just feel that attitude is problematic when extended outward across time as in a graph of future potentials it would show more wars, less bliss. That pride idea yields a "mine is better than yours" position somehow. I prefer the "family" of humanity idea. Just a little larger and more inclusive. Not separate and stuck in duality forevermore...amen? I just realized that you probably were speaking in mathematical type terms of sets of folks, "us" and "not us" being "A"+"B" Am now wondering about that small segment that fits in both sets, very small segment.......that is both us and not us.......

I think pride can be healthy, as in being proud of your home or your family.

I see countries as a (massive) expansion of the concept of family, which includes "us" and "them" (not family).

[Icssoma]

i like this. we all are aware of the ugly american status. i think there is something to be said for barry's comments.
i just posted the american flag to my facebook page yesterday.
not easy, but important.
challenged friends to do the same with their favorite "patriotic quote". i posted 4, fdr, eleanor r., dwight d. & lincoln. i was going for a republican theme, but couldn't resist some of the other quotes. they talk about freedom/patriotism.
time that the concepts "peace is Patriotic". the american flag represents progressives as well as any.
that dwight. d. (a republican, before the immoral/moral majority) said "beware of the industrial complex". as well as warning us about entry into future wars.
how we got so far away from the advice of smart men (& a few out spoken, thank you!!!!, women) i don't understand.
fdr:
A conservative is a man with two perfectly good legs who, however, has never learned how to walk forward.
Franklin D. Roosevelt (i think it is a huge mistake that we call these right wing republicans conservative...reactionary is more fitting.)

A nation that destroys its soils destroys itself. Forests are the lungs of our land, purifying the air and giving fresh strength to our people.
Franklin D. Roosevelt
i am proud to be from a country, where we can take it back from the corporations. takes conviction. work.
i think some of us get awful comfortable, and a bit...lazy. and we wonder why we are disenfranchised.
i think without some pride, it is difficult, to want to work for the changes that we need to commit to. i don't think self-loathing is as empowering.
we need to take/embrace the symbols for ourselves as well.

I think pride can be healthy, as in being proud of your home or your family.

I see countries as a (massive) expansion of the concept of family, which includes "us" and "them" (not family).

[Gratongirl]

Grateful...that would be my reply after traveling here and yon...lucky might be another after experiencing the blowback against those who may not have been born here recently...we are both if fortunate to be born here, as we can chose to leave if we don't like it, or move elsewhere on a whim

[pbrinton]

I think pride can be healthy, as in being proud of your home or your family.

I see countries as a (massive) expansion of the concept of family, which includes "us" and "them" (not family).

It seems to me that there is a world of difference. Home and family (and I would add your local community and workplace) are the environment in which we carry on our daily lives. If we know and love people and places we are naturally proud of them, and hopefully of our part in the nurturing of them. A country, on the other hand is a political entity, and its extent and nature are the result of forces way beyond our personal experience, and often quite arbitrary. We had no choice what country we were born in. Indeed, in parts if Europe at least one could find oneself in a different country while staying in the same place at a number of times in history. We are inculcated with national pride for reasons of power and control, and in my opinion it would be a much better world if we reserved our pride for our neighborhood and turned on our more critical faculties when dealing with national matters.

Patrick Brinton

[jbox]

I can't really think of one.

I agree with you, someguy, I can't think of another country I'd rather be from. And I've been to about 35 countries all around this world. In Havana, except for the main tourist districts, nothing had been painted or maintained since 1959, so sorry Fidel. (Not to mention government policy forbids folks from leaving the island). Behind the iron curtain in the early 60's was really eye opening for a lad of 10, in east Berlin there was block after grey block of bombed out buildings from 1945, while half a mile away the city was full of life, lights, and jazz. In Bangkok and Kathmandu, free enterprise abounds and life and energy positively pulsates, along with ubiquitous, crushing poverty. In western Europe it is similar to the USA, except everything costs twice as much, but I didn't see anything like Sonoma county, let me tell ya. In eastern Europe the smog can be so thick you can't see more than a mile or two on a clear day. In Egypt you sure as hell better not be gay. In most places the people think I'm a rich American and I suppose I am, when I'm there. When I come home, I struggle to make ends meet like everyone else, and when I'm able maybe I'll do a little traveling, which always reminds me why the good old USA is the place I'm proud to call home. We take for granted the freedom and opportunity to be whoever you want to be because that right is granted. That is more true here over any other place on the planet I can think of. Why do people from all around the world want to emigrate here? A good question to ponder.....

[Icssoma]

great post. thanks. those of us who are on the progressive side of social change are so focused on what we want to change, we forget, a context.
yes, the netherlands, sweden, and third world countries, where people are poor & seem happy & giving.
we have to ground ourselves so often.
we have so much.
and so many have worked to make it available. it is our obligation/job to make things better, so we have more to be proud about.
l.
sj

I agree with you, someguy, I can't think of another country I'd rather be from. And I've been to about 35 countries all around this world. In Havana, except for the main tourist districts, nothing had been painted or maintained since 1959, so sorry Fidel. (Not to mention government policy forbids folks from leaving the island). Behind the iron curtain in the early 60's was really eye opening for a lad of 10, in east Berlin there was block after grey block of bombed out buildings from 1945, while half a mile away the city was full of life, lights, and jazz. In Bangkok and Kathmandu, free enterprise abounds and life and energy positively pulsates, along with ubiquitous, crushing poverty. In western Europe it is similar to the USA, except everything costs twice as much, but I didn't see anything like Sonoma county, let me tell ya. In eastern Europe the smog can be so thick you can't see more than a mile or two on a clear day. In Egypt you sure as hell better not be gay. In most places the people think I'm a rich American and I suppose I am, when I'm there. When I come home, I struggle to make ends meet like everyone else, and when I'm able maybe I'll do a little traveling, which always reminds me why the good old USA is the place I'm proud to call home. We take for granted the freedom and opportunity to be whoever you want to be because that right is granted. That is more true here over any other place on the planet I can think of. Why do people from all around the world want to emigrate here? A good question to ponder.....

[Valley Oak]

I sojourned in Europe for 10 years, Spain & Denmark. And both of those countries are far better to live in than the US!

Please stop deluding yourselves. Or if you must fool yourselves, please don't lie to other people.

I agree with you, someguy, I can't think of another country I'd rather be from. And I've been to about 35 countries all around this world. In Havana, except for the main tourist districts, nothing had been painted or maintained since 1959, so sorry Fidel. (Not to mention government policy forbids folks from leaving the island). Behind the iron curtain in the early 60's was really eye opening for a lad of 10, in east Berlin there was block after grey block of bombed out buildings from 1945, while half a mile away the city was full of life, lights, and jazz. In Bangkok and Kathmandu, free enterprise abounds and life and energy positively pulsates, along with ubiquitous, crushing poverty. In western Europe it is similar to the USA, except everything costs twice as much, but I didn't see anything like Sonoma county, let me tell ya. In eastern Europe the smog can be so thick you can't see more than a mile or two on a clear day. In Egypt you sure as hell better not be gay. In most places the people think I'm a rich American and I suppose I am, when I'm there. When I come home, I struggle to make ends meet like everyone else, and when I'm able maybe I'll do a little traveling, which always reminds me why the good old USA is the place I'm proud to call home. We take for granted the freedom and opportunity to be whoever you want to be because that right is granted. That is more true here over any other place on the planet I can think of. Why do people from all around the world want to emigrate here? A good question to ponder.....

[Icssoma]

i think i am moving so fast, forgot to say, that in most other countries, they do not have the mix we have here. it is so much easier to have a homogeneous population.
pride. spain. ask the basques. much blood on the hands. not that we don't. we just can't look at these things in a vacuum.
perhaps we can keep this discussion, a tad more respectful and a little more caring.
how we treat people is of the utmost importance. as americans & individuals.
thanks for your input.
my best,
sj

I sojourned in Europe for 10 years, Spain & Denmark. And both of those countries are far better to live in than the US!

Please stop deluding yourselves. Or if you must fool yourselves, please don't lie to other people.

[ian-snazz]

When doing polls like this it is very important to define the terms as vividly as possible. What is America? What is pride? I could think of many definitions of America especially. Do you mean the government, or the geographical location, or the people, the culture........................

[Tars]

When doing polls like this it is very important to define the terms as vividly as possible. What is America? What is pride? I could think of many definitions of America especially. Do you mean the government, or the geographical location, or the people, the culture........................

Yes, all of those definitions, or others, as you see fit. A vote on the poll would be nice, if there's a category you feel comes close. Your verbal impression/opinion would be of more interest.

[Roland Jacopetti]

Yes, all of those definitions, or others, as you see fit. A vote on the poll would be nice, if there's a category you feel comes close. Your verbal impression/opinion would be of more interest.

Pride is not only one of the Seven Deadly Sins, but it also goeth before a fall, and it's the fuel of wars. Beware!

Roland

[Pawtucket Redemption]

One of the Scandinavian countries where the infant mortality rate is better than it is here. Also, the Kurds have no real country as they are dispersed over four different nations, but I think if they had a country, I would be proud to be a part of it, regardless of the honor killings which I'm sure happen in all nations, just in different ways.

What country would you be proud to be from?