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  1. TopTop #1
    realfire's Avatar
    realfire
     

    What Happened to Our Political Savior , Obama ?

    What Happened to Our Potential Savior , Obama ?
    by Betina Mansbach


    " If people are troublesome, you have only to change your thought about them , and then they will change to, because your own concept is what you see " Emmet Fox




    This article is written to all those that would consider themselves to be either

    religious or spiritual . Believing in the idea, philosophy , or concept that advocates

    that love is the only answer . In order to make my intention for this article clear I need

    to go back in political time to the Bush administration ( oh no not that again ).

    Those years of amplified fear and aggression in the world , as well as within our

    individual lives and behavior.

    Many of us expended a great deal of energy and time being "anti" something during these

    past eight years . Knowing full well that what we resist against, persists. Knowing full

    well that love is the answer, prayer works, and holding the highest vision in a given

    situation often reaps the best results . Still , we demanded on being mad.


    Were we displaying those attributes we wanted to see in our previous president ? Are

    we exhibiting those qualities in light of a new president ?

    Or are we still pointing fingers ? Being disappointed ?

    We seek a person of justice , integrity of word, compassion for others , exceptional

    communication skills with delicate situations , and much more is expected of this one

    individual . I would not be honest if I were to say that I have fulfilled my own

    expectations of myself in these areas and have barely touched my potential . So I'll

    just work on me, keep the finger pointed at me , and do my best as I interact and react

    to my political leader . In fact, I must improve the way I exchange with the world

    before I demand it of anyone, including President Obama.



    When Obama got elected president I cried . Mostly because African American children now

    had a massive role model representing their own dream potential . In addition , I was

    ecstatic at the ripple effect of having an African American president upon the overall

    consciousness of humanity .I feel we have been raised up a notch in the realm of freedom .

    However, I feel strongly that I must eat my beets before I get to eat dessert. Meaning ,

    I think as a human spiritual race in the US we blew our opportunity , with the Bush

    Administration, to implement the holiest of truths . We were unable to pray for him , we

    were unable to send him love, we could not do positive visualizations for a desired

    outcome , and sadly enough we could not temper our anger( further amplifying the

    energy of war ) toward him . Many say he failed , I say we failed . We stayed with the

    mind and its opinions ( whether right or wrong )without honoring OUR OWN sacred truths

    about the nature of kindness, compassion,and LOVE.


    We did not apply the wisdom of the sages , teachers, and masters .

    We adorn our cars and homes with symbols of these great beings , but we could not become

    the gifts of knowing that they imparted . We could not implement the wisdom of the heart .

    We were unable to resist the urge to be right , to make hi pay, to name call like

    bullies in an elementary schoolyard,with little to no ethical etiquette.



    So when Obama became president we WON . We were rid of that ..........and now we

    have who WE want . A political leader reflects the dominating energy , vibe, or climate

    of the people of that nation. We did not eat our beets so why would we think we got

    the fancy chocolate dessert in Obama ?



    Bush was a face of our own inner demons and potentialities. We always had the freedom to

    choose to send him love ( not the same as agreeing with policies)or to send him hate .

    We could have reached our spiritual ideals( apply any of your heartfelt ones here ). It

    is said that we should bless the difficult people in our reality , for they are the

    true gifts , in that they show us where we are not up to speed with who we really want

    to be , what we really want to feel , and the authentic way we want to show up in the

    world. The bitter pill, the button pushers, the angels of lessons to learn .

    Obama is a face ...........The elevation of African Americans is a done deal . This was

    achieved through their hard work and determination for greater freedom and self-expression.

    Rosa and Martin paved the way and all those young children who dreamed of college went.

    I am proud to be part of this time in history . None of this infers that Obama is the

    political answer we had sought . It is almost like a second marriage and thinking , at

    least it is not him/her or Bush :) We also bring ourselves into each new relationship just

    like this one we have just begun with Obama .



    I live in in a pretty progressive town in northern California where there is an online

    bulletin board called waccobb.net where there is often a great deal of banter around

    political issues . One recent thread which may have inspired this article had been

    viewed by like 2,000 people ; it was titled something like Obama, what have we gotten

    ourselves into ? There were millions of criticisms, judgments, harsh words and

    anger..................sound familiar ?

    Let's get some balls/ovaries and remember that WE are the changes We seek . No one

    really knows what it is like to be the president of the US , especially in the state our

    country is in We have enough difficulty managing our own families, businesses,communities,

    etc. We are entrusted with these responsibilities . If someone had a microscope on us

    would we be considered successful in our attempts to handle the state of affairs of our

    own lives ? Personally , I would not want his job.



    We have no idea what he stepped into . We only have second hand impressions

    of our government .Even if our information comes from some really progressive source we have

    not sat with a president and joined him on a typical day .

    Maybe he really does not have the power to do what he wants to do . Sort of like a husband

    who has a difficult wife or vice versa . It may look on the outside that someone is in

    control but that may not be the behind the scenes reality . Think , walking in someone

    else's moccasins for a day , a week , or a month . If you think that Bush felt no pain when

    he received a call that US soldiers had died , that belief says more about you then about

    him . Where might you be heartless in your life .Three fingers always pointing back at us,

    as we point at them .



    In any case , there is an expression as in the microcosm , so in the macrocosm ;

    that which appears to exist on a global level is often a clear reflection of that which

    is occurring on the individual playing field . Make a list of all the changes you want

    to see Obama make and then fold the page and ask yourself how well you are accomplishing

    these goals/intentions.



    For example, we want Obama to cease war , cease fighting, follow through on his

    promises, not spend a lot of money on unimportant things . These are just a few. Are

    you able to keep the peace and be in harmony with your world ? Do you not fight with

    anyone about anything ? Do you not have current "wars" in your relations?

    Do you always choose compassion ? Are you impeccable with your word ? Do you only

    buy necessities and spend your money appropriately ?

    I think the point is made . When you point a finger out at someone , you will notice

    that there are three fingers pointing back at you . Interpret it as you may . What if

    we all keep the focus on the betterment of ourselves , would then the world around us

    begin to reflect that choice .Maybe we could sway the presidency with all that WE become !

    Another incentive is our physical health. Harsh words , judgements , anger , distrust,

    fear , and criticism all end up somewhere in your body . They run through your system

    and have been proven to create the potential for illness and disease. Hence, no one

    wins.............



    Let us try Love ,not some fu-fu spiritual concept that someone else told us to believe.

    But instead , try love beyond concept . Decide what love means to you , what is you

    truth about love and its expression. Then , make earnest attempts to be your definition

    of love. I believe that this would create a win-win situation.


    Side note: God, Jesus, Buddha , Allah, fill in your faith here they are not our savior,

    they were our teachers , our pointers to heightened behavior and beingness. We are

    meant to be self aware , self determined, and self monitored in accordance with what we

    believe about their teaching . Bush was not a savior and neither is Obama .



    It is my contention that we can co create this presidency and the outcomes that will
    result . I have the faith of a mustard seed . I know we have another opportunity to love
    better and raise up the vibe of the world .



    At this point it is best to read on to the article below called Why ,love Bush. Just

    replace the name with Obama and be grateful we have another chance to advance our own

    perceptions of ourselves and our relationship with our leader


    I wish for all us four years of evolution internally and externally .

    With all my love
    Betina


    To the reader : take a break and reflect on this article before chewing on the next

    ...........or move on here is the really bitter pill :)


    Why, Love Bush ?


    This was written like four years ago
    ( you can read it as Bush or Obama or both)



    It is my intention to ask you to reflect upon your convictions about love and peace. The

    United States projects a hip, loving, educated, awake, ecologically conscious country.

    This is certainly an aspect, however, we seem to not be able to love the person who

    needs it most. Peace is a choice it begins with your heart, thought, intention, word,

    and action.

    Love and Compassion
    We want a president who is compassionate to those less fortunate. Are we

    compassionate even in our own hometowns? Sonoma,CA and neighboring counties, as well as

    this entire country has homeless people, drug addicts, underage smoking / drinking, and

    high incidence of DWI 's. When we get real, loving and awake in our own community then

    we can expect that on a world level.


    Imbalance and Greed
    It is not Bush's fault that the average home in this county(Sonoma) is $450,000. This

    necessitates a $108,000 dollar yearly income. The median income is 55,000. We

    manifested a greedy president because we are a greedy community and nation. People have

    no homes and we have million dollar homes that are empty 10 months out of the year.

    How many of us drive luxury cars, not necessity cars?
    If 4,000 people in any wealthy community downsized their cars from $50,000 to $40,000

    how many people could eat that day? How many pieces of our jewelry collection could feed

    a small village for months?

    Hint: Obesity is the second largest killer in the United States!
    Heart Disease is the first. Too much food!!!
    Every aspect of our lives is excessive, not necessary.
    Nature is upset not because we don’t recycle, but we because we don’t share . Maybe the

    planet’s ills are a response to the pain inflicted by human action and maybe it would

    spontaneously heal itself if we were kinder and willing to sacrifice (a luxury or two)

    for others.

    Denial
    If our actions are oblivious to the suffering of others what can we expect of a

    president who represents the U.S?

    How many of us fly to these third world countries and partake in their beauty without

    contemplation of the life these people lead?
    Why not vacation for seven days and spend three days with the people helping in some

    capacity. Taking without giving is not real. If you believe that the money you give to

    tourism gets to the poor, you are in denial.
    I, we, act in denial= denying president
    I, we, act apathetically = apathetic president
    I, we, act selfishly = selfish president

    " Be the change you seek "


    Personal Responsibility
    What are you willing to do/change to shift the planet's current state; not for yourself,

    but for all. What do you want Bush to do that you are already doing? Is your speech

    violent towards others? Are your actions gentle in nature? Do you meditate for your

    peace or world peace?


    Oneness
    If we are truly ONE, One being, One energy, One self…than denying any aspect of Bush is

    denying our own self. Where does your idea of oneness stop? Would it beneficial to

    expand that idea?

    Honesty and Illusion
    Often heard " Bush is a liar " What does our own integrity look like? Where are we

    dishonest? Was it not a lie to believe that the current system of government would

    function so much better with Kerry. Talk about illusion. Kerry would have made many

    egos stand up and say " I WON ". We all lose if we miss the messages behind

    appearances.

    Society
    We are an " I " and " me " society. We are really primarily concerned with Our safety,

    Our family, Our needs, Our shelter, food, etc. We think because we sponsor a kid here

    and there we are truly giving of ourselves. Where is the inconvenience? How deep is

    your love for this world and its inhabitants?

    Bush as perfect mirror/lesson giver
    There is a reason why many wealthy people feel so tired. They are exhausted because

    they are not sharing the resources. It takes more energy to amass more things. Christmas

    is tiring because we shop too much. We complain about lines in the store and how long

    it took to wrap presents and send out cards. Spoiled children we are! "It's mine,

    mine, mine " Having as much as we do when others have nothing cannot be natural.

    Bush is the perfect mirror and lesson giver in the following areas:
    Greed, Apathy, Power of Love, Accepting What Is, Non- resistance Introspection, Heart

    opening, Compassion, and so much more. Just look inside and you will see why he is

    here.

    The lesson will repeat as it has for eons
    Bush is here for a reason. Our planet is not designed to be haphazard in its projection

    of reality .Who is designing it?

    Trust
    We would not be so afraid for the future if we really had faith, trust, and

    understanding of the Law of the Universe. We are creating imbalance with our lives!

    Heart
    Love is more powerful than hate. What is your heart's truth? Does your chamber harbor

    hate?

    Creating
    We want Bush to change a world he did not create alone. We are constantly creating

    reality and it took a certain kind of creating to manifest Bush for 8 years. Just as it

    took a certain consciousness to create a Hitler.

    Bush is but a puppet to our thoughts and feelings about him. What strings do you pull?

    What is your intention in the moment? Be rest assured that consciously or unconsciously

    you are a puppeteer!

    " He is the anti-christ " " He is the devil ". Possibly he is who
    you are creating him to be .

    Irony
    The people who voted for Bush and support him are may be less toxic to this world than

    we are?

    Forgiveness and Healing
    To disagree with policies and decisions regarding a person's actions is one thing BUT to

    expend the energy of hate, greed and resistance is quite another choice.

    As with forgiveness it does not justify the actions of another but what it does allow

    for is healing for both parties. What do your beliefs about healing and forgiveness

    mean if they cannot be applied to worldly situations and people?

    Creative Visualization
    Can you visualize Bush changing?
    Can you visualize a just government?
    Can you visualize no more homelessness or hunger?
    Can you visualize world peace ?
    Can you visualize one heart?

    If not you, who?

    Fear and Suffering
    False Evidence Appearing Real
    The more we fear the damnation of the world, the more it will exist. The more afraid of

    Bush and his actions we are, the more we will create suffering for all of us . There

    WILL come a time that the suffering of third world countries will be our own. Why wait

    til that happens to be more open and loving?


    Respect
    We honor and respect MLK , Ghandi , Princess Diana , Angels ,Buddha, Jesus, and Mother

    Teresa because they addressed needed change without hate or violence of any kind .

    Children
    Kids today wear outfits (sneakers, shirt, pants) that can be valued at over $250.00.

    This is just what they put on in the AM. How happy would a kid be to know that if he

    could cash in one outfit and turn that into food, he would feed a family for weeks. Who

    is supposed to teach this humility and appreciation to them?

    Eating disorders, anti-anxiety meds, ADD, all affecting our kids today. WHY? 12 Step

    programs are filled with people suffering from addictions to things that are used in

    excess without thought: gambling, alcohol, over eaters, and more.

    When I completed writing this article I was in a local sauna listening to a few high

    school students who were discussing that it is a shame that now that Bush is really

    president (post inauguration the people of the US are divided. “ United We Stand

    Divided we Fall “

    What the Bleep Do We Know Anyway
    The book Hidden Messages in Water explains that water is affected by the words that are

    wrapped around it while in a container. The significance was expounded upon in the

    above titled movie. If words can does this to water what can they do to us (the

    premise being that we are 90 % water) .So is the president? What worlds/words are we

    surrounding him in?


    Words from the Buddha
    For harsh words do not serve as a remedy

    Master Yourself
    To straighten the crooked
    You must first do the harder thing
    Straighten yourself

    The Sharpest Word
    The greatest gain is to give to others: the greatest loss is to receive without

    gratitude
    The most dangerous thief is an unwholesome thought: virtue is the most precious treasure

    Practical Application : How to Love Bush

    In the limited realm of human " beingness" love is a verb.
    So.....how could that love be expressed in action ?
    There are a myriad of ways:
    Watch our speech.... speaking through love
    Listening with compassion ...hearing with love
    Observing with love your own hateful, apathetic, and violent actions

    Love is a transformative tool for change
    Holding love and peace in your heart for those you dislike broadens your capacity to

    love. Is love your essence? Or are you just as ignorant about REAL LOVE as so many of

    us have demonstrated overtime?

    * I love Bush because the alternative puts blood on my hands, sadness in my mind, and a

    limited experience of my heart's capacity to give and receive love. I can assure you

    that I do not agree with 90% of his decisions. However, I recognize now, how I can

    change this and it is with love.

    Written by a child of earth, just like you and just like Bush
    If you would like to send responses: [email protected]
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  2. TopTop #2
    countrygirl
    Guest

    Re: What Happened to Our Political Savior , Obama ?

    That is alot of issues to take on. Can there really be one political Savior? I don't believe so. The beast is too big, it'll take alot of children of earth. I bellieve Obama is just the promise of hope at the end of Pandora's box. You still have to deal with the demons and they plentiful. You addressed so many and yet every one of those problems is complex to find a solution. Love, compassion, visualization are all necessary but it'll take much more strategic planning and implementing. People don't care about their own neighborhood enough to change it enough I agree. I'm not sure what it will take to convince enough people to actually care enough that it's finally important enough to get busy fixing their town, country, world. Sometimes it's hard for people to even address helping fix problems in their own family. I'm afraid that it'll take too much for them to finally make it a priority in their life. Even then it'll take more than spiritual endeavors to repair the damage. Though I'm sure such endeavors will have to remain part of the solution. I believe figuring out the nuts and bolts steps to be saved would be an important beginning. Now getting through the misinformation and fixed economic woes would be grand business for a savior or two. It'll probably take millions of saviors in the end to even begin the healing. Maybe hope is enough to at least begin the plans to salvation. Step by step. I wish there could be a savior or saviors to figure out a grand design that could convert the masses and bypass the hierarcy. I think people didn't like Bush because he represented the hierarcy to many people. No one can tolerate being ruled like that nor should they. No since in wasting time hating it just disregard it as false and resist. If only that was enough. Planning a better future will take vision and tenacity. I'm sure prayers and love will help us along the rocky road. We are the ones we have been waiting for still, God Speed to any savior to come help all us children of earth. So much to fix. How does the repair even begin?

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by realfire: View Post
    What Happened to Our Potential Savior , Obama ?
    by Betina Mansbach

    ...
    Last edited by Barry; 08-27-2009 at 10:00 AM.
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  3. TopTop #3
    Tars's Avatar
    Tars
     

    Re: What Happened to Our Political Savior , Obama ?

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by realfire: View Post
    We have no idea what he stepped into . We only have second hand impressions of our government .Even if our information comes from some really progressive source we have not sat with a president and joined him on a typical day .

    Maybe he really does not have the power to do what he wants to do .
    The salient point of the article.

    A president is not a king, who rules by decree, more like a herder of cats.

    Maybe it's just what I wanted to see in the article, but... Patience is a kind of love. Obama, and we, will benefit by practicing the exercise of patience, instead of wailing and gnashing of progressive teeth.

    "Walk in another's moccasins"? Who wears moccasins?


    ps. and apropos of nothing else in this thread...when, oh great moccasin-wearing spirit, will posters learn how to (or not to) quote posts?!
    Last edited by Tars; 08-27-2009 at 08:08 AM.
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  4. TopTop #4
    babaruss
    Guest

    Re: What Happened to Our Political Savior , Obama ?

    Have been looking for a semi appropriate place to present this guys lovely rant. Looks like this as good as it's going to get for tonight's digest.
    Babaruss

    By Michael Seitzman
    "Are you sick to death of the I-can-out-crazy-your-crazy screaming, the Obama-wants-to-kill-yo-mama infantilism, the he's-a-Kenyan-Nazi-Communist, America-doesn't-apologize, torture-shmorture, government-is-evil-except-when-it's-interrogating-Muslims, my-gun-gets-bigger-when-you-rub-it, and the O'Reilly-Beck-Hannity-Limbaugh Axis-of-Evil? If the answer is yes, I salute you. If the answer is no, I also salute you... with this one finger.
    I have some advice for all of us. Stop trying to get these people to realize how wrong they are and how right you are. Stop trying to apply reason to the profoundly unreasonable. Stop trying to mitigate or explain their collective temper tantrum. Stop trying to curry their favor, their votes, their attention. They don't care about truth, right and wrong, good or bad. They care about stomping feet, crying victim, and pointing fingers. Barney Frank had it exactly right, it's like arguing with a dining room table. Enough is enough. Fuck Kumbaya.
    I'm not sure what bothers me more, the profound and disturbing ignorance displayed by some, or the ones who know what's right but protest simply because what's right was proposed by the Left. Ironically, their elected representatives don't care about them any more than they care about us. They care about reelection, they care about influence and power, they care about themselves, and they mindlessly adhere to an antiquated ideology at our collective peril (see Sunday's Paul Krugman).
    Don't be afraid of them. Don't let them question (or make you question) your basic instincts for goodness, decency, humanitarianism, and the attainable America you want and deserve. Don't let them intimidate you. Think of Vivian Jones and James Hood trying to attend their first day of college, facing those bloodthirsty crowds led by none other than the Governor of Alabama seething, "Segregation now, segregation tomorrow, segregation forever!" Those kids didn't run. Martin Luther King didn't run when that same governor called him a communist threatening the fabric of America. If they didn't run at the first sounds of anger, the first sight of guns, the first smell of stubborn ignorance, neither should we. And neither should President Obama."










    Quote Posted in reply to the post by countrygirl: View Post
    That is alot of issues to take on. Can there really be one political Savior? I don't believe so. The beast is too big, it'll take alot of children of earth. I bellieve Obama is just the promise of hope at the end of Pandora's box. You still have to deal with the demons and they plentiful. You addressed so many and yet every one of those problems is complex to find a solution. Love, compassion, visualization are all necessary but it'll take much more strategic planning and implementing. People don't care about their own neighborhood enough to change it enough I agree. I'm not sure what it will take to convince enough people to actually care enough that it's finally important enough to get busy fixing their town, country, world. Sometimes it's hard for people to even address helping fix problems in their own family. I'm afraid that it'll take too much for them to finally make it a priority in their life. Even then it'll take more than spiritual endeavors to repair the damage. Though I'm sure such endeavors will have to remain part of the solution. I believe figuring out the nuts and bolts steps to be saved would be an important beginning. Now getting through the misinformation and fixed economic woes would be grand business for a savior or two. It'll probably take millions of saviors in the end to even begin the healing. Maybe hope is enough to at least begin the plans to salvation. Step by step. I wish there could be a savior or saviors to figure out a grand design that could convert the masses and bypass the hierarcy. I think people didn't like Bush because he represented the hierarcy to many people. No one can tolerate being ruled like that nor should they. No since in wasting time hating it just disregard it as false and resist. If only that was enough. Planning a better future will take vision and tenacity. I'm sure prayers and love will help us along the rocky road. We are the ones we have been waiting for still, God Speed to any savior to come help all us children of earth. So much to fix. How does the repair even begin?
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  5. TopTop #5
    Mike Van Horn
     

    Re: What Happened to Our Political Savior , Obama ?

    Quote I bellieve Obama is just the promise of hope at the end of Pandora's box. You still have to deal with the demons and they plentiful.
    I'm one of the demons referred to, I guess. I have many reservations about the laws passed or proposed by Obama and crew.

    Apparently many who post on this site cannot accept that well-meaning, serious people could question or disagree with anything Obama does. We must all be selfish, dupes, do-nothings, or agents of the dark forces of the dreaded Right.

    Does "progressive" mean demonizing those who think differently?

    I must say that Obamacare, as currently presented, scares the bejesus out of me.

    And I see nation-crippling deficits stretching beyond my lifetime.

    I believe that the only way to work through deficits is to stimulate business, so that jobs are created, and tax revenues go way up. We need government leaders who know how to stimulate business, esp. small business. But instead, the current government seems intent on squeezing as many tax increases from business and entrepreneurs as possible, thus crushing our ability to innovate, create jobs, and get things rolling again.

    Among all the top echelon of leaders, there's not a single person with any experience making a business hum, and their activities show it. They all have law degrees but apparently none ever took Econ 101.

    The government's model is, "We need more revenue, raise taxes." But this doesn't work. It's like BART: every time they raise fares, ridership declines. Or the Post Office; every time they raise postage rates, fewer first class letters are sent. Econ 101.

    It's no accident that the states that are doing best are those with the lowest tax rates, like Texas and Arizona. The states with the highest tax rates are fighting off bankruptcy: California, New York, Michigan. This is the route the USA is headed down.

    Progressive cheerleaders chant, "Tax the rich!" But the irony is, the new taxes coming out are quite regressive, and will hit the lower echelons hardest. Did you realize that the California state sales tax has increased 31% in the last few years? Who does that hit? And our state is STILL flirting with bankruptcy. The new cap and trade tax, should it pass, will hit low-income commuters harder than anybody else. The taxes and mandates on businesses will mean that millions of people will stay out of work much longer than they would otherwise.

    I'm one of those who would be creating jobs if I could afford to.

    Suppose Obama said, "I'm going to lower taxes enough so that every small business can afford to hire one more person." That's 10,000,000 new jobs. Would that make a difference in your community? In your family? All these newly hired people would be turning out desired products and services -- this is called "wealth creation." (Econ 102, macroeconomics) Would the payroll and business taxes collected from all these new employees and new wealth help cover the tab of a workable healthcare system? And without running up ruinous national debt?


    End of rant. I welcome your comments.

    mvh
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  6. TopTop #6

    Re: What Happened to Our Political Savior , Obama ?

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by Mike Van Horn: View Post
    I must say that Obamacare, as currently presented, scares the bejesus out of me.

    And I see nation-crippling deficits stretching beyond my lifetime.
    "ObamaCare" works very well in most western nations, they have far better health care than we do and it's far less expensive. Even Cuba's infant mortality rate is better than ours, and that is truly pathetic for a people that think we're number one in everything.

    And the nation was already crippled by the greatest debt in world history thanks to Bush - yes, Obama being another corporate shill, is continuing to charge it to our grandkids (nobody wants to actually pay for roads, schools, wars etc), but where was conservative concern while Bush was borrowing $3 billion a day for the last eight years? Then, to top it off, he gave his puppet masters a $700 billion gift on his way out the door. Where was Faux News and Rush Limbaugh then?

    WTF has happened to 'conservatives' in this country, have they completely lost the ability to think critically?
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  7. TopTop #7
    countrygirl
    Guest

    Re: What Happened to Our Political Savior , Obama ?

    No, small business owners aren't demons. Though I'm sure greed was one of them. Even Econ 101 is paid and presented in the Universities by a big business agenda now days. Yes, Cuba and many other countries are have much better healthcare than ours. Capitalism can collapse on itself sometimes. Power corrupts and absolute power.......... Jobs aren't being created, their being outsourced by big business for the bottom line of bottom line. It's a self destructive course and big business usually escapes those higher tax rates. It's not who thinks differently, it's all who's treated differently. The whole economic structure needs to be thought of differently and nobody can seem to think differently, outside the box, which is more like a trap at this point. Produce more products for who? to go where? to make jobs for more people so they can buy more products to sell to who? How is any of this going to make a sustainable future for all the children of Earth? It has to be a given that most of the powers that be don't really care about all the children but we all have to because we know it's right. How is the economic and spiritual finally come together? I'd welcome any Savior like anybody else but just because they seem like a good enough candidate doesn't mean they are. Who's got the good beginning structural plans that will get us to a future that we're not scared of, even with all the different fears that abound?
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  8. TopTop #8
    Hotspring 44's Avatar
    Hotspring 44
     

    Re: What Happened to Our Political Savior , Obama ?


    [quote]
    Quote Posted in reply to the post by Mike Van Horn: View Post
    “Does "progressive" mean demonizing those who think differently?”
    No.

    [quote]
    Quote Posted in reply to the post by Mike Van Horn: View Post
    “I must say that Obamacare as currently presented scares the bejesus out of me.”
    And who is it that you're listening to that is presenting it? I hope it's not Sara Palen!

    [quote]
    Quote Posted in reply to the post by Mike Van Horn: View Post
    “And I see nation crippling deficits stretching beyond my lifetime.”
    Yes, so do I but I don't blame it on health care; if I have to blame it on anything I blame it on greed and naivety.


    [quote]
    Quote Posted in reply to the post by Mike Van Horn: View Post
    “Suppose Obama said, "I'm going to lower taxes enough so that every small business can afford to hire one more person." That's 10,000,000 new jobs. Would that make a difference in your community? In your family? All these newly hired people would be turning out desired products and services -- this is called "wealth creation." (Econ 102, macroeconomics) Would the payroll and business taxes collected from all these new employees and new wealth help cover the tab of a workable healthcare system? And without running up ruinous national debt?


    End of rant. I welcome your comments.”
    Do you have any idea how much is enough? I don't really have any idea of exact numbers, but maybe you do. Is there enough demand in your trade that you could actually afford to hire one more person if your taxes were lowered or would you have to have your taxes completely eliminated? Could you afford to pay a living wage to all your employees, in the area where you live? What is a “desired product” or “service”?

    It seems like when we need it medical services are a desired service. When we need it, hospitals are desired services. Homes are a desired product, but right now, hardly anybody can afford any new homes.
    Renewable energy sources are very desirable products, but who's going to pay for the initial output? I foresee another government stimulus package, for the output of renewable energy generation. I don't think there are many entrepreneurs that can afford the initial investment for such things. Not everybody is T. Boone Pickens.

    “Econ 102, macroeconomics”; sounds like another buzzword to me. I think I've heard something like that one before in regards to bailing out the banks. I seem to remember the term “too big to fail” in the recent past. Is that “macroeconomics”?
    I think Ultra-rich multinational corporations have been exempt too long from paying their fair share, plain and simple.

    How come it's always the employer that wants a tax brake and expects all the little people under them to have the tax burden and the employers to be the only ones that are exempt? Employers may be above their employees in that particular trade, in that particular worksite but in society we are all supposed to be equals.

    I think instead of the employer based health care system that we have now; which is getting skimmed 30% right off the top by the private health care, so-called providers; everybody should be taxed for health care in a progressive way so that those who have far more than they need can pay more than somebody that can't afford to pay anything, whereas everybody gets healthcare; not just insurance in case they get injured at work, but actual preventative maintenance nondiscriminatory type of health care.

    I think part of the problem with certain people not liking healthcare is that employers seem to believe that they have to pay for their employees’ healthcare. Well, actually, that's true right now under the present system we have (getting skimmed 30% off the top by greedy, so-called healthcare providers), but if it were changed to single-payer, then everybody would pay with their taxes for medical facilities, doctors, nurses, ambulances, etc. the entrepreneurs would be the ones that build those places, train those professionals, maintain those ambulances, and create and maintain the infrastructure necessary for it to function properly.

    Part of the change I think is supposed to be that employers should not be so burdened with somebody else's healthcare (wasting precious time filling out a bunch of stupid forms); rather, everybody should be reasonably burdened for their own health care and in a progressive tax structure where as to make available to others that can’t afford it so that they are covered too. It's just like people saying, we pay for roads, law-enforcement, fire protection, dams, and various aspects of infrastructures that keep our society happening; so healthcare could just be another integral part of that entire infrastructure.

    [quote]
    Quote Posted in reply to the post by Mike Van Horn: View Post
    “I believe that the only way to work through deficits is to stimulate business so that jobs are created and tax revenues go way up. We need government leaders who know how to stimulate business esp. small business. But instead the current government seems intent on squeezing as many tax increases from business and entrepreneurs as possible thus crushing our ability to innovate create jobs and get things rolling again.”
    Just think all of the jobs people would have if we were to put together a very large, alternative energy infrastructure, before we become desperate for energy.

    Just think of all the jobs we would have building new hospitals training new doctors, nurses and other maintenance personnel and then filling those hospitals and doctors offices with enough doctors, nurses, and other maintenance personnel to actually do a decent job. Personally I think there would be much more than 10 million jobs just to do that. Then there would be more people (that have money from being paid a decent wage) to purchase whatever it is that you do if you don't build renewable energy infrastructure, doctors’ offices or hospitals or train nurses, doctors, or other maintenance personnel. Besides that, consider the infrastructure that would be needed to make the improvements that we need to make before we get desperate (for either healthcare or energy), would employ a lot of people.
    There's a lot of revenue to be generated from taxing people that can actually afford it (like maybe the top 2%). But a lot of people need the work first.

    So my questions to you are: “Econ 102, macroeconomics”, is that a buzzword or is there really a college course that actually has that name?

    Who are the prospective students going to work for when they get out of a class like that? Halliburton, AIG, Fannie Mae, private health-care insurance providers, think tank employees?

    Is it possible that maybe instead of bailing out any more banks (too big to fail excuse) we should concentrate on building our infrastructure and energy sources (too important to fail reasoning), before we reach a point where it becomes a disaster? (I think it's called a tipping point.).

    People have to get something valuable for their hard labor; life is not just about paying mortgage to greedy investors and bank profiteers, or working for exempt Employer-Emperor's that make 10 times more money than they do.

    I'm not saying smalltime employer's should be overburdened; I realize that when it comes to workmen's Comp. (for example) to have one employee (even part-time, or even once during a year); you still have to pay that initial $10,000. For a lot of smalltime entrepreneurs that don't even have enough money to hire somebody full-time, that is way too much! But it's my understanding that in California that’s how much it costs.

    I am basically saying that I realize that everybody has to pitch in. I'm also saying that; I don't know about you or anybody else, but I know that the 1% of people who control over 80% of the economy are not paying their fair share by a long shot! As matter of fact, I'm saying that they have been ripping us off for too long. And that is one of the necessary changes that need to be made.
    But of course as soon as somebody says something like that they get accused of being a communist or socialist.

    What's wrong with being a fair share democratic republic, Humanist? Is there really such a thing? Does capitalism really mean Darwinian-isim? Does capitalism really mean or supposed to mean big fish eat little fish? Should capitalism mean economic cannibalism? Is anybody else that is using this thread, get the feeling like I do that, somehow, Money and economics have been weponized by the few to conquer the many? Can anybody explain any good reason why there should be less than 3% of the population controlling 90% of the wealth? Can anybody explain to me why that 2% that controls 80% of the economy pays less than 50% of all taxes on that 100% of all Taxes?

    [quote]
    Quote Posted in reply to the post by Mike Van Horn: View Post
    “It's no accident that the states that are doing best are those with the lowest tax rates like Texas and Arizona. The states with the highest tax rates are fighting off bankruptcy: California New York Michigan. This is the route the USA is headed down.”
    If those places are so great, why aren’t you in Texas or Arizona? I think I know the answer to that, because those places suck!

    [quote]
    Quote Posted in reply to the post by Mike Van Horn: View Post
    “I'm one of those who would be creating jobs if I could afford to”
    If taxes are your main reason and you live in California, why don't you just move to Nevada or Texas?

    [quote]
    Quote Posted in reply to the post by Mike Van Horn: View Post
    “Apparently many who post on this site cannot accept that well meaning, serious people could question or disagree with anything Obama does. We must all be selfish, dupes, do nothings, or agents of the dark forces of the dreaded Right.”
    I don't know about you or anybody else here, but I have disagreed with what Obama has said in the case of health care specifically, I have wrote directly to Obama on the Internet stating what and why I disagree with him about it. Have you?
    I can tell you several things that I disagree with Obama on but I will keep on subject as far as the e-mails I sent are concerned.
    When they (more specifically, Obama administration) kept single-payer off the table and did not even have anybody representing single-payer health care in their discussions; as far as I'm concerned, I think that was very wrong, also that I thought it made the whole thing doomed to get screwed up or fail; that is essentially what I told the White House I thought about it in the e-mails that I wrote and sent.

    Some of us just don't think, live, or even want to be inside the box. Some of us are not necessarily ‘socialists’ and some of us are not ‘communist’; Nor are we do nothings, or agents of the dark forces of the dreaded left, either.
    Just because we (some of us) think that single-payer healthcare is the way that will work doesn't make us what some names people tend to call us or imply.

    Another main thing that I have where I disagree with Obama is the issue about the rule of law. Specifically, him stating that he wanted to look forward and not look back when it comes to “alleged” war crimes committed by certain officials within the previous administration.
    Torture, extraordinary rendition, the removal of habeas corpus, violations of the FICA act, removal of federal judges for political reasons, giving classified information to a civilian for the specific purpose of outing a CIA agent that was in covert action, whereas that was a continuation of the lies that were used in regards to WOMD in Iraq being a “imminent threat” to “America within our soil, and our interests abroad”.

    Those are just a few things that we already know about.
    But anyway the point is that it seems to me that unless they prosecute or at least investigate those "alleged" (obvious) high crimes, then Obama would appear to be just another elitist, high-echelon, politician, just like the majority of them that also appear to be like that.

    It's probably too early to judge harshly, but time will tell, so far not doing so well on those at this point in time.

    since when is somebody that is just doing their job correctly considered a savior anyway?
    I don't know about anybody else here, but I don't expect a "savior" president, however I do expect the president to do the job where it really matters the most. showing that nobody is above the law does matter a lot.

    Hotspring 44.
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  9. TopTop #9
    Jupiter13
    Guest

    Re: What Happened to Our Political Savior , Obama ?

    When people say "ObamaCare" are they referring to the kind of health caare that resembles other western countries? (universal health care for provided by government, not corporations.) If so, I'm confused - that is not what Obama is proposing. He and the Democrats seem to have compromised so completely on healthcare that any true reform looks unlikely. As I understand it, people will have to buy private insurance from the current health care providers - their dream come true. If there is a "public option" it will be set up to be so weak that if fails. Then the insurance companies will proclaim that reform doesn't work.

    My understanding is that Boxer nor Feinstein have taken a strong stance on even the watered down "public option" strategy.

    It baffles me that the right are acting as if we are on the brink of socialism. If only we could be so lucky...

    Wow. I sound so cynical. But that's the story I've been following.


    Quote Posted in reply to the post by Clancy: View Post
    "ObamaCare" works very well in most western nations, they have far better health care than we do and it's far less expensive. Even Cuba's infant mortality rate is better than ours, and that is truly pathetic for a people that think we're number one in everything.

    And the nation was already crippled by the greatest debt in world history thanks to Bush - yes, Obama being another corporate shill, is continuing to charge it to our grandkids (nobody wants to actually pay for roads, schools, wars etc), but where was conservative concern while Bush was borrowing $3 billion a day for the last eight years? Then, to top it off, he gave his puppet masters a $700 billion gift on his way out the door. Where was Faux News and Rush Limbaugh then?

    WTF has happened to 'conservatives' in this country, have they completely lost the ability to think critically?
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  10. TopTop #10

    Re: What Happened to Our Political Savior , Obama ?

    I think you summed it up pretty accurately.

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by Jupiter13: View Post
    When people say "ObamaCare" are they referring to the kind of health caare that resembles other western countries? (universal health care for provided by government, not corporations.) If so, I'm confused - that is not what Obama is proposing. He and the Democrats seem to have compromised so completely on healthcare that any true reform looks unlikely. As I understand it, people will have to buy private insurance from the current health care providers - their dream come true. If there is a "public option" it will be set up to be so weak that if fails. Then the insurance companies will proclaim that reform doesn't work.

    My understanding is that Boxer nor Feinstein have taken a strong stance on even the watered down "public option" strategy.

    It baffles me that the right are acting as if we are on the brink of socialism. If only we could be so lucky...

    Wow. I sound so cynical. But that's the story I've been following.
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  11. TopTop #11
    Tars's Avatar
    Tars
     

    Re: What Happened to Our Political Savior , Obama ?

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by Jupiter13: View Post
    When people say "ObamaCare" are they referring to the kind of health caare that resembles other western countries?
    Not really. Political buzzword, to associate the bill with Obama. Just the same as "HillaryCare". Anyone who has anxiety about Obama will transfer their anxiety to the healthcare reform project.

    Quote My understanding is that Boxer nor Feinstein have taken a strong stance on even the watered down "public option" strategy.
    The stance of both senators seems to be = "no public option, no passed bill". Boxer was upfront about it right off; Feinstein hemmed & hawed, but eventually started vocally supporting "universal healthcare".

    Quote It baffles me that the right are acting as if we are on the brink of socialism. If only we could be so lucky...
    Huh? Nobody's gonna make the U.S. over into a socialist system! Jeez - that's just the GOP "fearhetoric". The fact that it's being discussed at all means that the fear tactic has worked.

    From the Daily Dish:

    “I’ll be danged if I am going to give up my Social Security because of socialism,” councilman LeRoy Schaffer, addressing Michele Bachmann at a town hall."

    Heh heh heh...what a maroon!

    For GOP spinmeisters, trolling "liberuhl" West Coast websites for quotes to incite their base - SOCIALISM IS NOT THE GOAL. It's been demonstrated over & over that Socialism doesn't work, except possibly in small agrarian communities.
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  12. TopTop #12
    Jupiter13
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    Re: What Happened to Our Political Savior , Obama ?

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by Tars: View Post
    ...The stance of both senators seems to be = "no public option, no passed bill". Boxer was upfront about it right off; Feinstein hemmed & hawed, but eventually started vocally supporting "universal healthcare".
    Thanks for the update. Good.


    Quote Posted in reply to the post by Tars: View Post
    Huh? Nobody's gonna make the U.S. over into a socialist system! Jeez - that's just the GOP "fearhetoric". The fact that it's being discussed at all means that the fear tactic has worked.
    Yeah, that is clear. I was being sarcastic. We are so far from that and any real movement towards that, it is laughable. What I meant by "we should be so lucky" is that if that was an actual strategy by the powers that be, we might actually get universal healthcare, free education, generous paid family leave to care for our children on the road to socialism. I wasn't saying socialism works. I believe we have to take action to hold onto our democracy which is slipping away before our eyes.

    But, at the moment I'm just feeling discouraged by how far we are from creating the kind of society that honors basic human needs and protects the most vulnerable among us.
    Last edited by Barry; 08-29-2009 at 03:23 PM.
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