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  1. TopTop #1
    hearthstone's Avatar
    hearthstone
     

    Why Prayers, Meditations, Wishes, etc., Don't Help to Establish a Lasting World Peace.

    Why Prayers, Meditations, Wishes, and Any Such Don't Help to Establish a Lasting Peace in the World.
    https://www.modelearth.org/praypeace.html

    It is a safe assumption that ever since humans started experiencing the horrors of warfare, they also started to wish to live in peace that would not end with a war again.

    Humans in great numbers have been wishing, praying, meditating for peace since time immemorial, but, so far, with no lasting results. Why should this be so?

    The answer might be that the very reason that wars always come back is precisely because that people do want to live in peace!--they don't, because their ideas of what peace should be differ from each other so greatly, that they go to war to settle their differences again and again.

    A lasting world peace is possible, of course--it is within human capabilities to effect this--but since our ideas of what such a peace should look like are so diverse, we have to learn how to resolve our differences peacefully, instead of choosing war every time we feel the desire for peace.

    This is what has to be done:
    All the people who pray, meditate, wish, and etc., for a lasting peace in the world have to get together one way or another, and come up with one unified design of a world they would like to live in. A design in which it would be possible to see how they all are to live together in one world in as small detail as possible. Differences that normally would get resolved in real life with often damaging results would be resolved harmlessly in a model during the process of hammering out of a design in which all of us would find a place in.
    More on how this could be done is presented at ModelEarth.

    The idea on how to create a lasting Peace in the world is also presented in a different form at: Designing a Lasting Peace.

    Thank you, Hearthstone.
    CREDIT and DEDICATION
    Last edited by hearthstone; 06-03-2009 at 05:43 AM. Reason: Inserting credit
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  2. TopTop #2
    ripplewindwanders
    Guest

    Re: Why Prayers, Meditations, Wishes, etc., Don't Help to Establish a Lasting Peace.

    I believe your right about the bulk of the work to be done is more complicated than prayer for a better world. I believe also that prayer and meditation are important. I think there's statistics even given in a few experiments where the crime was decreased dramatically when a group of people were sent in to a city to meditate. It is going to take a lot more than that to gets things right again,however. I completely agree. Thanks for the info.

    Bring out the elbow grease.

    Quote hearthstone wrote: View Post
    Why Prayers, Meditations, Wishes, and Any Such Don't Help to Establish a Lasting Peace in the World.
    https://www.modelearth.org/praypeace.html

    It is a safe assumption that ever since humans started experiencing the horrors of warfare, they also started to wish to live in peace that would not end with a war again.

    Humans in great numbers have been wishing, praying, meditating for peace since time immemorial, but, so far, with no lasting results. Why should this be so?

    The answer might be that the very reason that wars always come back is precisely because that people do want to live in peace!--they don't, because their ideas of what peace should be differ from each other so greatly, that they go to war to settle their differences again and again.

    A lasting world peace is possible, of course--it is within human capabilities to effect this--but since our ideas of what such a peace should look like are so diverse, we have to learn how to resolve our differences peacefully, instead of choosing war every time we feel the desire for peace.

    This is what has to be done:
    All the people who pray, meditate, wish, and etc., for a lasting peace in the world have to get together one way or another, and come up with one unified design of a world they would like to live in. A design in which it would be possible to see how they all are to live together in one world in as small detail as possible. Differences that normally would get resolved in real life with often damaging results would be resolved harmlessly in a model during the process of hammering out of a design in which all of us would find a place in.
    More on how this could be done is presented at ModelEarth.

    The idea on how to create a lasting Peace in the world is also presented in a different form at: Designing a Lasting Peace.
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  3. TopTop #3
    Gene's Avatar
    Gene
     

    Re: Why Prayers, Meditations, Wishes, etc., Don't Help to Establish a Lasting Peace.

    I think your missing the fact that the people rarely if ever choose war. It is always the political and military elite that choose war. The people merely fight them. Meditation, prayer and positive visualzation may be the best tools we have.
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  4. TopTop #4
    hearthstone's Avatar
    hearthstone
     

    Re: Why Prayers, Meditations, Wishes, etc., Don't Help to Establish a Lasting Peace.

    Quote Gene wrote: View Post
    I think your missing the fact that the people rarely if ever choose war. It is always the political and military elite that choose war. The people merely fight them. Meditation, prayer and positive visualzation may be the best tools we have.


    It is merely enough not to define "peace" that we might want clearly enough to keep the politicians and the military who "choose war" in power.
    Fighting those politicians and the military who choose war will remain ineffectual without us (all of us) knowing clearly what peace should look like--we might all want different, often even even incompatible versions of "peace", and we might even never know that we are all after different things, unless we stop and unite/reconcile our ideas that we might have on the subject.
    As long as we don't know, into as little detail as possible, what the peace that we want should look like, not even "meditation, prayer and positive visualization" will ever achieve any substantial difference; they have not done so to this day-- war remains the main, the fundamental feature of this our culture.
    We still need to know what that something that we meditate on, pray for, and what we visualize should be to all of us who engage in such activities. It should be a coherent/clear "something" that we all share to want. Unclarities, non-unity, incongruities in our vision will make our efforts weak, if not outright null otherwise.

    Thank you, Hearthstone -
    www.ModelEarth.Org .
    Last edited by hearthstone; 06-03-2009 at 05:26 AM. Reason: font, grammar
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  5. TopTop #5
    hearthstone's Avatar
    hearthstone
     

    Re: Why Prayers, Meditations, Wishes, etc., Don't Help to Establish a Lasting Peace.

    Quote ripplewindwanders wrote: View Post
    Bring out the elbow grease.
    Elbow grease is a limited resource; Let's make sure that the common reality (lasting world peace) that we want to have is agreed upon/designed by all who are to share it beforehand, otherwise we end up fighting again.

    Thank you, Hearthstone - www.ModelEarth.Org .
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  6. TopTop #6
    mykil's Avatar
    mykil
    A Really Cute Guy

    Re: Why Prayers, Meditations, Wishes, etc., Don't Help to Establish a Lasting Peace.

    I once heard the Dali Lama say out loud that he did not have much faith in prayer; I got up and walked outů
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  7. TopTop #7
    MichaelF's Avatar
    MichaelF
     

    Re: Why Prayers, Meditations, Wishes, etc., Don't Help to Establish a Lasting Peace.

    From my reading in Spiral Dynamics (by Don Beck and Chris Cowan) it seems that war, disharmony, conflict and the culture wars have in common the tensions between values that are (or seem to be) irreconcilable. Values of individuals, groups and whole societies tend to coalesce and rigidify into mind-sets with little room for adjustment or accommodation. From warlords, gangs, various leaders-- at the egocentric level, to the Taliban, Fundamentalist Jews, Christians and those belonging to the American secular religion of flag and patriotism-- at the ethnocentric level, to toxic predatory capitalists and narrowly conceived scientism-- at the worldcentric level to hyper-green thought police and malinformed anti-holarchy types at the next level (higher worldcentric) we see the unfortunate justification for disagreement, enmity and war. Al Qaeda-- 'You do not agree with my values. You have no place for them in your hyper-modern world. So I will take action (usually violent). You cannot escape this conflict.'-- This happens between us and radical Islam, happens within countries (see the culture wars right here in the USA), groups and families where values are either stuck and rigid or are on the move to new levels. The sad part of all this is that the violence and misery is in part the effect of human growth and emergence where individuals, groups and cultures are (or can be) moving up the "ladder" of development to more integrated, balanced, humane and compassionate stages. Regrettably, we have, as yet, limited ways to change individuals or groups in positive directions. Of course, change of every stripe is already going on anyway. It is just chaotic and the media delivers it 24-7 to us in every imaginable form. Thus,from my perspective, prayer and meditation are probably as good a strategy as any. But not to affect events at a distance. Instead they give us, the riders of this breaking tsunami wave of post-modern craziness, the time to balance and transcend. And in meditative and prayerful states become compassionate observers of this chaos of relativity even as we work to change what we may. Michael
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  8. TopTop #8
    hales's Avatar
    hales
     

    Re: Why Prayers, Meditations, Wishes, etc., Don't Help to Establish a Lasting Peace.

    Mykil,
    I would have been curious why the Dalai Lama did not have much faith in prayer. I think it would be interesting to know more about why he did not have faith in it. Maybe because there are other things required, in addition to prayer.

    I had concerns about the Obama campaign and it's emphasis on "hope", as well.. I wonder if hope is really a constructive emotion. It is an emotion that can be manipulated, though.. what we want in our deepest wishes, is the thing that can easily be used to motivate us..

    I don't believe in begging God for stuff.. if there is such an omniscient being, IMO, IT does not be told what to do, what we need, whether we deserve it, etc..

    In terms of manifesting something that we want, what I think works better, it to positively visualize the outcome desired, and have a strong belief in the outcome occurring as desired, in addition to doing all the things required to move towards that goal, as needed.

    I "hope" that my viewpoint is constructive.. Scott.

    Quote mykil wrote: View Post
    I once heard the Dali Lama say out loud that he did not have much faith in prayer; I got up and walked outů
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  9. TopTop #9
    newhome
    Guest

    Re: Why Prayers, Meditations, Wishes, etc., Don't Help to Establish a Lasting Peace.

    Very well-written personal commentary; of course, your headline is a grabber because we may individually wrestle with this exact seeming dilemma every day (in the world and thus in ourselves). Yes, at the center of prayers is the lasting peace of "Be Still and Know I AM". But that is not enough sometimes for the literal empathy we must stem in ourselves when bleeding for others. And so, I would offer the reminder that what we know about prayer thus far includes case study on both directed and undirected prayer, going back more than 25 years from this contemporary new beginning in science and spirituality investigations.

    My suggestion to all, is to remember your power to co-create in the world by entering prayer, meditation and wishes in your "private chamber" WORKS; as well as link with the thousands of prayer circles utilizing undirected prayer as a reverberating force of entrainment, causing toxic spew of world hate and discord to be instantaneously transmuted, if not gafted until the day of ultimate universal resolve of "the battle of good and evil". Carry on with your do-gooding!

    Thank you. Rev. Violet Kashewa, MscD.,MchD. Doctoral Candidate; METAinterface Corporate Services & Ministry
    Last edited by Barry; 01-07-2010 at 10:50 AM.
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  10. TopTop #10
    Sara S's Avatar
    Sara S
    Auntie Wacco

    Re: Why Prayers, Meditations, Wishes, etc., Don't Help to Establish a Lasting Peace.

    Dear Friends,
    A call out to all souls, January 15 - February 23, 2010.
    //www.youtube.com/watch?v=ld3jjDaVKGY

    May we all have peace.
    Love,
    Mudita
    ps January 15 is Murshid Sam's Urs!
    Winter Feast for the Soul - Welcome

    __._,_.___
    Last edited by Barry; 01-08-2010 at 08:29 AM.
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  11. TopTop #11
    kpage9's Avatar
    kpage9
     

    Re: Why Prayers, Meditations, Wishes, etc., Don't Help to Establish a Lasting Peace.

    is this meant to convey something to the rest of us?

    "ps January 15 is Murshid Sam's Urs!"


    __._,_.___
    Last edited by Barry; 01-09-2010 at 09:04 AM.
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  12. TopTop #12
    Sara S's Avatar
    Sara S
    Auntie Wacco

    Re: Why Prayers, Meditations, Wishes, etc., Don't Help to Establish a Lasting Peace.

    Oh, sorry; I should have deleted that! The post was a forward from a Sufi friend, and I imagine it's connected with Sufism.





    Quote kpage9 wrote: View Post
    is this meant to convey something to the rest of us?


    "ps January 15 is Murshid Sam's Urs!"


    __._,_.___
    [/quote]
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  13. TopTop #13
    notsomuch
    Guest

    Re: Why Prayers, Meditations, Wishes, etc., Don't Help to Establish a Lasting Peace.

    Notice how so many posts, and not just in this thread are basically a bunch of little monologues. Even if we read what other people write and write something in response, the basic intent is not to have an exchange, but merely to throw in what we think. Granted that might be a way to get started, but the basic pattern doesn't seem to help.

    To get down to basics, peace is about how we relate to each other, so how can we start to get at it if we're not even directly relating to each other, even if it is through concepts? Even if relating through concepts isn't as direct, we can at least communicate with each other more directly. I think often within spiritual circles these things are really used for the individuals benefit, and as a result there is really very little awareness regarding other people. Sure you might be very much at peace as an individual and that might rub off on other people, but strictly speaking that's an indirect effect, certainly within the context of living this life.

    Why can't we carry that kind of intent in everything we do, instead of making prayer, meditation etc. be a separate activity? It's about a certain state of mind isn't it? Sure you focus more if you sit and take time out for it, but I believe that understanding is largely missing when you compartmentalize that kind of spiritual activity from other life activities.
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  14. TopTop #14
    Sara S's Avatar
    Sara S
    Auntie Wacco

    Re: Why Prayers, Meditations, Wishes, etc., Don't Help to Establish a Lasting Peace.

    Beautifully put, and so true.

    I suggest that you check out Vajrayana Buddhism (Tibetan) for a path that relates to and connects us all (even more radically than one might imagine!).

    Quote notsomuch wrote: View Post
    Notice how so many posts, and not just in this thread are basically a bunch of little monologues. Even if we read what other people write and write something in response, the basic intent is not to have an exchange, but merely to throw in what we think. Granted that might be a way to get started, but the basic pattern doesn't seem to help.

    To get down to basics, peace is about how we relate to each other, so how can we start to get at it if we're not even directly relating to each other, even if it is through concepts? Even if relating through concepts isn't as direct, we can at least communicate with each other more directly. I think often within spiritual circles these things are really used for the individuals benefit, and as a result there is really very little awareness regarding other people. Sure you might be very much at peace as an individual and that might rub off on other people, but strictly speaking that's an indirect effect, certainly within the context of living this life.

    Why can't we carry that kind of intent in everything we do, instead of making prayer, meditation etc. be a separate activity? It's about a certain state of mind isn't it? Sure you focus more if you sit and take time out for it, but I believe that understanding is largely missing when you compartmentalize that kind of spiritual activity from other life activities.
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  15. TopTop #15
    notsomuch
    Guest

    Re: Why Prayers, Meditations, Wishes, etc., Don't Help to Establish a Lasting Peace.

    I do have some familiarity with Vajrayana paths and I appreciate the principles in Buddhism, but I just don't know how following any particular spiritual path necessarily helps me be more connected in my particular life situation. (unless it just fits at the time) I may cross paths with it again within this context, in fact I'm meeting someone today who I originally found via an article on the Rainbow Body, though we're not planning on discussing anything in particular. So I'm open to it but there does seem to be many sects like anything else, a while back I came across that place in Petaluma but then found out their leader disagrees with the Dalai Lama over this practice and there's all this politics around it - I'd rather just get at the essentials and see how it relates to life than be caught up in some spiritual drama.

    Quote Sara S wrote: View Post
    Beautifully put, and so true.

    I suggest that you check out Vajrayana Buddhism (Tibetan) for a path that relates to and connects us all (even more radically than one might imagine!).
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  16. TopTop #16
    Thad's Avatar
    Thad
     

    Re: Why Prayers, Meditations, Wishes, etc., Don't Help to Establish a Lasting Peace.

    If one is to be a devotee of any practice, the historical context of its origins should be considered.

    Not to offend anyone here of this particular reference but it highlights what I mean and applies across the board.

    When Christianity first came into play as a named practice Romans held all the cards. There were no personal rights to privacy unless you were a Roman Citizen so Christians were counseled to be happy in their condition because there wasn't any alternative...

    following this thread of logic, there would never have been an American Revolution.

    The point of this,

    I find it to be more a matter of convenience that this smorgasboard of spiritual practices doesn't have more choices of homegrown styles which speak in the prevailing vernacular and don't require credentials nor translations and the fluency of other languages

    I believe the problem that is particularly American, has a particularly American solution...

    Being unhappy in a war zone has a different practice than being unhappy in the midst of plenty.







    Quote notsomuch wrote: View Post
    I do have some familiarity with Vajrayana paths and I appreciate the principles in Buddhism, but I just don't know how following any particular spiritual path necessarily helps me be more connected in my particular life situation. (unless it just fits at the time) I may cross paths with it again within this context, in fact I'm meeting someone today who I originally found via an article on the Rainbow Body, though we're not planning on discussing anything in particular. So I'm open to it but there does seem to be many sects like anything else, a while back I came across that place in Petaluma but then found out their leader disagrees with the Dalai Lama over this practice and there's all this politics around it - I'd rather just get at the essentials and see how it relates to life than be caught up in some spiritual drama.
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  17. TopTop #17
    hearthstone's Avatar
    hearthstone
     

    Re: Why Prayers, Meditations, Wishes, etc., Don't Help to Establish a Lasting Peace.

    Quote MichaelF wrote: View Post
    ...Thus,from my perspective, prayer and meditation are probably as good a strategy as any....

    Exactly--and as long as there are no clearly defined objectives for our actions meant to benefit us all (be those prayers, meditations, what-ever actions), that long there will be no satisfactory results achieved, ever.
    In order to achieve any worthwhile results that would be good for all of us, we need to collectively decide what those results ought to be , so that we all know what it is that we all are together striving for.

    Thank you, Hearthstone.
    --
    Creating Lasting Peace:
    creating peace on earth cooperatively

    If we, the people, were really sincere about having real Peace in the
    world, we would pursue creating Peace by peaceful means more actively
    rather than by relying on our military might!

    Quote MichaelF wrote: View Post
    From my reading in Spiral Dynamics (by Don Beck and Chris Cowan) it seems that war, disharmony, conflict and the culture wars have in common the tensions between values that are (or seem to be) irreconcilable. Values of individuals, groups and whole societies tend to coalesce and rigidify into mind-sets with little room for adjustment or accommodation. From warlords, gangs, various leaders-- at the egocentric level, to the Taliban, Fundamentalist Jews, Christians and those belonging to the American secular religion of flag and patriotism-- at the ethnocentric level, to toxic predatory capitalists and narrowly conceived scientism-- at the worldcentric level to hyper-green thought police and malinformed anti-holarchy types at the next level (higher worldcentric) we see the unfortunate justification for disagreement, enmity and war. Al Qaeda-- 'You do not agree with my values. You have no place for them in your hyper-modern world. So I will take action (usually violent). You cannot escape this conflict.'-- This happens between us and radical Islam, happens within countries (see the culture wars right here in the USA), groups and families where values are either stuck and rigid or are on the move to new levels. The sad part of all this is that the violence and misery is in part the effect of human growth and emergence where individuals, groups and cultures are (or can be) moving up the "ladder" of development to more integrated, balanced, humane and compassionate stages. Regrettably, we have, as yet, limited ways to change individuals or groups in positive directions. Of course, change of every stripe is already going on anyway. It is just chaotic and the media delivers it 24-7 to us in every imaginable form. Thus,from my perspective, prayer and meditation are probably as good a strategy as any. But not to affect events at a distance. Instead they give us, the riders of this breaking tsunami wave of post-modern craziness, the time to balance and transcend. And in meditative and prayerful states become compassionate observers of this chaos of relativity even as we work to change what we may. Michael
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  18. TopTop #18
    hearthstone's Avatar
    hearthstone
     

    Re: Why Prayers, Meditations, Wishes, etc., Don't Help to Establish a Lasting Peace.

    Quote newhome wrote: View Post
    ...My suggestion to all, is to remember your power to co-create in the world by entering prayer, meditation and wishes in your "private chamber" WORKS; as well as link with the thousands of prayer circles utilizing undirected prayer as a reverberating force of entrainment, causing toxic spew of world hate and discord to be instantaneously transmuted, if not gafted until the day of ultimate universal resolve of "the battle of good and evil"....
    Again:

    meditations, wishes, and "undirected" prayers have been used for a long time now, but things, overally, are not getting better on Earth. What would change that, so that things on Earth would be getting better, would be that we use *directed* meditatons, wishes, and prayers--directed in the sense that we agree on what it is that we are meditating, wishing, and praying for. So that when we say "peace", it means the same (or as same as possible) thing to all of us.

    As it is today, how can we be sure that anybody's meaning of peace is the same as everybody else's meaning of peace? All that is same is the word! Not necessarily the meaning.

    Thanks, Hearthstone - Designing the future collectively, Creating Peace,
    --
    Creating Lasting Peace:
    creating peace on earth cooperatively

    If we, the people, were really sincere about having real Peace in the
    world, we would pursue creating Peace by peaceful means more actively
    rather than by relying on our military might!
    Last edited by hearthstone; 01-13-2010 at 01:04 PM. Reason: signature
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