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Thread: Rain
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  1. TopTop #1
    Ice Queen's Avatar
    Ice Queen
     

    Rain

    O.K. Whoever did the rain dance can stop dancing now.
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  2. TopTop #2
    photolite's Avatar
    photolite
     

    Re: Rain

    No!!! Keep dancing! We need LOTS more rain!
    Photo

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by Ice Queen: View Post
    O.K. Whoever did the rain dance can stop dancing now.
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  3. TopTop #3
    massagemaiden
    Guest

    Re: Rain

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by Ice Queen: View Post
    O.K. Whoever did the rain dance can stop dancing now.
    I'm one of the rain dancers and have impressed myself with the power of our feet, our hearts, our thoughts.
    Unfortunately, we're not even close to being able to stop dancing. We've been in a drought for so long we've forgotten what a normal year's rainfall is.
    So I will keep dancing, affirming, praying for constant and consistent rain for at least another month, enjoying the magnificent Cumulous clouds and the way the sun sparkles off of everything whenever there is a break.
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  4. TopTop #4
    nurturetruth's Avatar
    nurturetruth
    Co-observing

    Re: Rain

    I am also one of those rain dancers . Thank u to all the rain dancers and to Gaia for the wonderful rain!

    I heard thunder the other morning for the first time this rain season!
    I soo enjoyed it
    and i just love walking in nature after a day of good rain...the smells are incredible!
    I have also seen about 8 rainbows so far during this rainy season!
    as a matter of fact, saw 1 today!
    There was just enough light and just enough rain clouds....

    Today, during the times of gorgeous sunlight, I ended up sunbathing in my garden as I hung out with my little winged bird friends.

    It was a good day. There is alot to be thankful for.

    I hear there are more sunny times to come before we have more rain.
    It will be a nice break.

    I will join u, massage maiden and all the other rain dancers out there...i
    continuing our dances, rituals and prayers for us to receive more rain .


    :columb:

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  5. TopTop #5
    Sara S's Avatar
    Sara S
    Auntie Wacco

    Re: Rain

    Check out Mark Morford's column today at sfgate.com: "We Are So Wet"

    https://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/artic...otes030609.DTL
    Last edited by Barry; 03-06-2009 at 12:27 PM.
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  6. TopTop #6
    Dixon's Avatar
    Dixon
     

    Re: Rain

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by massage maiden: View Post
    I'm one of the rain dancers and have impressed myself with the power of our feet, our hearts, our thoughts...
    So I will keep dancing, affirming, praying for constant and consistent rain ...
    I thought people were joking about the rain dancing. Stupid me--I'd forgotten that there's no belief so silly that someone in Sebastopol won't believe it, especially if it allows people to feel that they have power over things we're powerless over.

    Apparently rain is caused by dancing, praying and other forms of ritualizing instead of the silly scientific explanations of those benighted meteorologists who insist on attributing it to the wonderful water cycle that keeps our planet livable in spite of the actions of humans (so far, anyway).

    Of course, that begs the question: How did it rain so much in the billions of years before anyone existed to ritualize the rain into coming down? I'm sure the highly evolved pseudo-shamans of Sebastopol will have plenty of good answers for that one, presumably based on "New Science", "ancient wisdom traditions", "channeled information", or "womyn's ways of knowing", LOL!!!!

    Dixon
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  7. TopTop #7
    alanora's Avatar
    alanora
     

    Re: Rain

    I believe it was National Geographic on line where I read recently about how much rain was made to fall in china as a result of human intervention with clouds.....Mindy

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by Dixon: View Post
    I thought people were joking about the rain dancing. Stupid me--I'd forgotten that there's no belief so silly that someone in Sebastopol won't believe it, especially if it allows people to feel that they have power over things we're powerless over.

    Apparently rain is caused by dancing, praying and other forms of ritualizing instead of the silly scientific explanations of those benighted meteorologists who insist on attributing it to the wonderful water cycle that keeps our planet livable in spite of the actions of humans (so far, anyway).

    Of course, that begs the question: How did it rain so much in the billions of years before anyone existed to ritualize the rain into coming down? I'm sure the highly evolved pseudo-shamans of Sebastopol will have plenty of good answers for that one, presumably based on "New Science", "ancient wisdom traditions", "channeled information", or "womyn's ways of knowing", LOL!!!!

    Dixon
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  8. TopTop #8
    nurturetruth's Avatar
    nurturetruth
    Co-observing

    Re: Rain

    hmmm....

    can someone say....HAARP?!

    https://educate-yourself.org/cn/weac...vsky2000.shtml


    ahhhh.......till we get more rain...enjoy the sun!
    Last edited by nurturetruth; 03-09-2009 at 12:25 PM.
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  9. TopTop #9
    Dixon's Avatar
    Dixon
     

    Re: Rain

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by alanora: View Post
    I believe it was National Geographic on line where I read recently about how much rain was made to fall in china as a result of human intervention with clouds.....Mindy
    Here's the link for the National Geographic article which is probably the one you're referring to, Mindy:

    China's Rain-Free Olympics Plan Met With Skepticism

    Thanks for mentioning it; I found the explication of different attempts to create rain interesting. Some of them might even be somewhat efficacious, though that's apparently none too certain at this point. Of course, none of it has anything to do with people supposedly bringing on rain through dancing/praying/ritualizing.

    Cheers!

    Dixon

    P.S. It was nice meeting you the other day.
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  10. TopTop #10
    alanora's Avatar
    alanora
     

    Re: Rain

    At the point from which the article was written, the action and its results were seemingly known, no longer a plan. I am gonna see if I can find it...........Very nice meeting you as well.

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by Dixon: View Post
    Here's the link for the National Geographic article which is probably the one you're referring to, Mindy:

    China's Rain-Free Olympics Plan Met With Skepticism

    Thanks for mentioning it; I found the explication of different attempts to create rain interesting. Some of them might even be somewhat efficacious, though that's apparently none too certain at this point. Of course, none of it has anything to do with people supposedly bringing on rain through dancing/praying/ritualizing.

    Cheers!

    Dixon

    P.S. It was nice meeting you the other day.
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  11. TopTop #11
    Braggi's Avatar
    Braggi
     

    Re: Rain

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by Dixon: View Post
    ... Apparently rain is caused by dancing, praying and other forms of ritualizing ...
    Dixon, you missed something. Rain is cause FOR dancing, praying and ritualizing. Timing could be before, during or after rain.

    You could drop a tiny bit of your atheism and lean toward Paganism a little bit more and you'd do just fine. Stop focusing so much on the seeming illogic of it all and see it as various methods of celebrating all the amazing mysteries of life instead of as an attempt to move the mysteries through anything other than changing ourselves.

    Anodea Judith calls "Magic" probability enhancement. So a person who's working magic is attempting to cause an outcome, not necessarily by doing something ridiculous or illogical, but by working on whatever is necessary to enhance the probability of the outcome they wish for. I think very few rain dancers actually believe they're causing the rain. Demanding or pleading for gifts from the Gods is likely to be a disappointing task. However, if you wait for the forecast to predict rain tomorrow it's suddenly a great day to do a rain dance. If the outcome you're after is a medical degree, the best magic to cause that is enrolling in medical school. Both are working magic in my way of thinking, and both are cause for, and methods of celebrating life.

    -Jeff
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  12. TopTop #12
    Zeno Swijtink's Avatar
    Zeno Swijtink
     

    Re: Rain

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by Braggi: View Post
    Dixon, you missed something. Rain is cause FOR dancing, praying and ritualizing. Timing could be before, during or after rain.

    You could drop a tiny bit of your atheism and lean toward Paganism a little bit more and you'd do just fine. Stop focusing so much on the seeming illogic of it all and see it as various methods of celebrating all the amazing mysteries of life instead of as an attempt to move the mysteries through anything other than changing ourselves.

    Anodea Judith calls "Magic" probability enhancement. So a person who's working magic is attempting to cause an outcome, not necessarily by doing something ridiculous or illogical, but by working on whatever is necessary to enhance the probability of the outcome they wish for. I think very few rain dancers actually believe they're causing the rain. Demanding or pleading for gifts from the Gods is likely to be a disappointing task. However, if you wait for the forecast to predict rain tomorrow it's suddenly a great day to do a rain dance. If the outcome you're after is a medical degree, the best magic to cause that is enrolling in medical school. Both are working magic in my way of thinking, and both are cause for, and methods of celebrating life.

    -Jeff
    Jeff, are you saying that dancing for rain, when there is a 75% probability of rain tomorrow, increase the probability of rain over the 75%??
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  13. TopTop #13
    Braggi's Avatar
    Braggi
     

    Re: Rain

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by Zeno Swijtink: View Post
    Jeff, are you saying that dancing for rain, when there is a 75% probability of rain tomorrow, increase the probability of rain over the 75%??
    It increases the likelihood that you'll be happy about it.

    -Jeff
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  14. TopTop #14
    Zeno Swijtink's Avatar
    Zeno Swijtink
     

    Re: Rain

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by Braggi: View Post
    It increases the likelihood that you'll be happy about it.

    -Jeff
    Is this what Anodea Judith calls probability enhancement? I always wondered. So when you dance and rain doesn't come you feel more depressed: your life is enhanced, not so flat as the atheists have it. And when you want that MD but didn't go to medical school but you get the degree for your birthday from your sister-in-law who bought it on the internet, you feel happier? more depressed??

    I think I'm still confused.
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  15. TopTop #15
    Braggi's Avatar
    Braggi
     

    Re: Rain

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by Zeno Swijtink: View Post
    Is this what Anodea Judith calls probability enhancement? ...
    Probability enhancement is doing what's necessary to make your desire reality. In the case of rain, it could be called "getting your ducks in a row."

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by Zeno Swijtink: View Post
    ... So when you dance and rain doesn't come you feel more depressed: your life is enhanced, not so flat as the atheists have it. ...
    The rain always comes. It depends on certain (weather) factors how long it takes for the rain dance to work. Yes, I think most atheists live lives that are either "flat" (good word) or tense because it seems they're always ready to resist something. Relaxation helps. I'm not sure Paganism helps a lot. Perhaps Buddhism would work better.

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by Zeno Swijtink: View Post
    ... And when you want that MD but didn't go to medical school but you get the degree for your birthday from your sister-in-law who bought it on the internet, you feel happier? more depressed??

    I think I'm still confused.
    It will ever be thus Zeno. Learn to live with it. I'm trying.

    -Jeff
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  16. TopTop #16
    Zeno Swijtink's Avatar
    Zeno Swijtink
     

    Re: Rain

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by Braggi: View Post
    Probability enhancement is doing what's necessary to make your desire reality. In the case of rain, it could be called "getting your ducks in a row."
    A rather limited lifestyle I would think, not one that fits a worldview of chance and uncertainty:

    See here, for years we have had our ducks in a row for rain: English lawns, Cleopatraen showers, use of good water to flush our shit, to frost and heat protect our grapes, ...

    And behold, as we have lined up our ducks for our desire, we are in a drought, out of touch with the real.
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  17. TopTop #17
    alanora's Avatar
    alanora
     

    Re: Rain

    Turns out twas not national geographic but "Reuters"....I can't seem to add the link.........talks of 12 highways being closed!!!!! due to artificially induced snow......in china

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by Dixon: View Post
    Here's the link for the National Geographic article which is probably the one you're referring to, Mindy:

    China's Rain-Free Olympics Plan Met With Skepticism

    Thanks for mentioning it; I found the explication of different attempts to create rain interesting. Some of them might even be somewhat efficacious, though that's apparently none too certain at this point. Of course, none of it has anything to do with people supposedly bringing on rain through dancing/praying/ritualizing.

    Cheers!

    Dixon

    P.S. It was nice meeting you the other day.
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  18. TopTop #18
    Braggi's Avatar
    Braggi
     

    Re: Rain

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by alanora: View Post
    Try this: Artificial snow in China closes 12 highways | NowPublic News Coverage

    It doesn't sound like a very big deal.

    -Jeff
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  19. TopTop #19
    Sciguy
     

    Re: Rain

    Rain dancers and rain wishers all:

    There is an excellent presentation by Willy Smits on TED (TED: Ideas worth spreading) explaining how his group reforested and recovered denuded land in Indonesia. What captured my attention was his demonstration of the greatly increased rainfall over the newly forested section. He had satellite pictures of the extent to which the rainfall was affected. It seems that we do indeed have the ability to increase rainfall.

    Sciguy

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by alanora: View Post
    I believe it was National Geographic on line where I read recently about how much rain was made to fall in china as a result of human intervention with clouds.....Mindy
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  20. TopTop #20
    Dixon's Avatar
    Dixon
     

    Re: Rain

    Yes, trees are wonderful natural pumps that transport water from underground into the air, transforming the environment around them through increased precipitation etc.

    And conversely, removing trees will dry out an ecosystem. Extreme example: The inhabitants of the island we call Easter Island denuded their once-lush island of trees, largely for superstitious reasons (they used logs to roll their giant stone heads from the quarry down to the coastline in order to propitiate their gods--their version of "probability enhancement", magic, religion, or whatever you want to call it.) As a result, their ecosystem dried up. Many years later, when the first Europeans arrived, they found an unhealthy, degraded culture, barely eking out a living, who would probably have gone extinct without outside intervention.

    In other words, because they dealt with their problems superstitiously, through rituals propitiating their imaginary deities, instead of rationally, they substantially destroyed their world and themselves. I leave it to those of you Sonoma County New Agers, pagans and "shamans" who can be reasoned with to consider the parallels and take the obvious lesson. The rest of you are invited to make a doll of me and stick pins into it, put a hex on me, or whatever other type of "probability enhancement" floats your boat.

    Blessings;

    Dixon


    Quote Posted in reply to the post by Sciguy: View Post
    Rain dancers and rain wishers all:

    There is an excellent presentation by Willy Smits on TED (TED: Ideas worth spreading) explaining how his group reforested and recovered denuded land in Indonesia. What captured my attention was his demonstration of the greatly increased rainfall over the newly forested section. He had satellite pictures of the extent to which the rainfall was affected. It seems that we do indeed have the ability to increase rainfall.

    Sciguy
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  21. TopTop #21
    Braggi's Avatar
    Braggi
     

    Re: Rain

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by Dixon: View Post
    ... In other words, because they dealt with their problems superstitiously, through rituals propitiating their imaginary deities, instead of rationally, they substantially destroyed their world and themselves. I leave it to those of you Sonoma County New Agers, pagans and "shamans" who can be reasoned with to consider the parallels and take the obvious lesson. The rest of you are invited to make a doll of me and stick pins into it, put a hex on me, or whatever other type of "probability enhancement" floats your boat. ...
    Dixon, why so cynical and offensive? Did you have trouble understanding what I wrote? Your analogy is idiotic. I expect better of you.

    -Jeff
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  22. TopTop #22
    enigmaha
    Guest

    Re: Rain

    Though I think maintaining a healthy skepticism about things has its merits, so does remaining open-minded enough to consider that there are dimensions to reality that still remain hidden to most of us.

    I’m trained as a scientist yet I have personally experienced a multitude of occurrences that defy ‘logical’ explanation leaving not a shadow of a doubt that a ‘mystical’ element (something not yet explainable by science) was at play. Science is still in its infancy on many levels. Continued investigations into the realm of quantum physics will eventually turn our currently held notion of reality upside down (or, rather, inside-out). In fact, it has already begun to do this. What we presently attribute to the realm of the mystical may one day be able to be explained by science and potentially will then be more readily incorporated into our day-to-day awareness and approach to being alive.

    Our individual and collective psyches and intentions do indeed influence outcomes, although to varying degrees. We are helping to shape ‘reality’ through our evolving consciousness and awareness.

    On more than one occasion, I have personally witnessed the weather being directly and dramatically affected by energy/emotions/vibrations being generated by humans—from dense fog being dissipated in a ring overhead of a circle of meditators to a single raincloud forming overhead in what was an otherwise cloudless sunny sky and raining on the person who called it in. This phenomenon was repeated that same day three different times.

    There are many mysteries that have yet to be explained! As a lover of the Great Adventure, I’m glad that this is so and I celebrate the wonder, rain or shine!
    Last edited by enigmaha; 03-11-2009 at 02:48 PM.
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  23. TopTop #23
    Barry's Avatar
    Barry
    Founder & Moderator

    Re: Rain

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by enigmaha: View Post
    On more than one occasion, I have personally witnessed the weather being directly and dramatically affected by energy/emotions/vibrations being generated by humans—from dense fog being dissipated in a ring overhead of a circle of meditators to a single raincloud forming overhead in what was an otherwise cloudless sunny sky and raining on the person who called it in. This phenomenon was repeated that same day three different times.
    I have also witnessed uncanny weather 'coincidences' around Grateful Dead concerts (and, no, I didn't hallucinate them!) Like the time when mist rolled in and rolled out during a great "Franklin's Tower" and a brief rain during "Cold Rain and Snow" at the Greek Theater.

    And the there was rally for the Headwaters forest, maybe 10 years ago, up in Humboldt and after the rally a fabulous, "solid" double (or was it triple?) rainbow appeared directly behind the stage and stayed there for an hour or two!
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  24. TopTop #24
    photolite's Avatar
    photolite
     

    Re: Rain

    I find Dixon's analogy neither idiotic nor offensive. He's merely citing two instances of measurerable and quantifiable cause and effect that are relevant to this discussion.

    Enigmaha seems to have experienced some extraordinary weather phenomenon during a sublime moment(s). There didn't appear to be any conclusive evidence that "magic" or "mystcism" was afoot however. Enigmaha apparently perceived it as such but there is no substantiation other than personal opinion. I'd also apply the same statement to Barry's experience, and even some of my own.

    Photo

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by Braggi: View Post
    Dixon, why so cynical and offensive? Did you have trouble understanding what I wrote? Your analogy is idiotic. I expect better of you.

    -Jeff
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  25. TopTop #25
    Sciguy
     

    Re: Rain

    Enigmaha:
    I see that you claim the mantle of scientific training, yet you express ideas that almost all physical scientists eschew so I wonder if I might respectfully ask what kind of science training you are referring to?


    There are so many kinds of "science" claims now that it is hard to keep score. There is even "noetic science" whatever that might be (just religion in a new package so far I can tell).


    "Remaining open minded" is often code for remaining ignorant of scientific knowledge. "Hidden dimensions to reality" sounds like a rejection of what has actually been discovered by science. I am quite surprised to hear this coming from someone claiming to have been trained in science. Unless the training failed to stick, or was rejected.


    Thanks,



    Sciguy
    Chemist, PhD, Yale, 1966

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by enigmaha: View Post
    Though I think maintaining a healthy skepticism about things has its merits, so does remaining open-minded enough to consider that there are dimensions to reality that still remain hidden to most of us.

    I’m trained as a scientist yet I have personally experienced a multitude of occurrences that defy ‘logical’ explanation leaving not a shadow of a doubt that a ‘mystical’ element (something not yet explainable by science) was at play. Science is still in its infancy on many levels. Continued investigations into the realm of quantum physics will eventually turn our currently held notion of reality upside down (or, rather, inside-out). In fact, it has already begun to do this. What we presently attribute to the realm of the mystical may one day be able to be explained by science and potentially will then be more readily incorporated into our day-to-day awareness and approach to being alive.

    Our individual and collective psyches and intentions do indeed influence outcomes, although to varying degrees. We are helping to shape ‘reality’ through our evolving consciousness and awareness.

    On more than one occasion, I have personally witnessed the weather being directly and dramatically affected by energy/emotions/vibrations being generated by humans—from dense fog being dissipated in a ring overhead of a circle of meditators to a single raincloud forming overhead in what was an otherwise cloudless sunny sky and raining on the person who called it in. This phenomenon was repeated that same day three different times.

    There are many mysteries that have yet to be explained! As a lover of the Great Adventure, I’m glad that this is so and I celebrate the wonder, rain or shine!
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  26. TopTop #26
    The A Team's Avatar
    The A Team
    Supporting Member

    Re: Rain

    An inspiring video from trees for the future:
    Trees for the Future > Resource Center > Technical Data
    everyone- have a look.

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by Sciguy: View Post
    Rain dancers and rain wishers all:

    There is an excellent presentation by Willy Smits on TED (TED: Ideas worth spreading) explaining how his group reforested and recovered denuded land in Indonesia. What captured my attention was his demonstration of the greatly increased rainfall over the newly forested section. He had satellite pictures of the extent to which the rainfall was affected. It seems that we do indeed have the ability to increase rainfall.

    Sciguy
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  27. TopTop #27
    Braggi's Avatar
    Braggi
     

    Re: Rain

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by photolite: View Post
    I find Dixon's analogy neither idiotic nor offensive. He's merely citing two instances of measurerable and quantifiable cause and effect that are relevant to this discussion. ...
    Dixon's analogy, that someone today, who is doing a dance to celebrate nature and it's processes (in particular, the gift of rain), is doing the same thing as Easter islanders deforesting an island to appease their "God" is idiotic. Sorry, I can't think of a better word to describe it. It read to me as an intended offense to me based on his wording and his quote of my words. Not sure how else to describe it.

    A similar analogy is that all physicians are trying to poison their patients because George Washington's physicians killed him with lead and mercury treatments. Therefore all physicians are poisoners with no more knowledge than those of hundreds of years ago.

    Yup, that's idiotic and I believe Dixon was being intentionally offensive.

    As I said, I expect better of Dixon, who is somebody I know, like and respect.

    -Jeff
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  28. TopTop #28
    Braggi's Avatar
    Braggi
     

    Re: Rain

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by TheATeam: View Post
    An inspiring video from trees for the future:
    Trees for the Future > Resource Center > Technical Data
    everyone- have a look.
    Inspiring indeed. That's the kind of "probability enhancement" I was talking about. With work like that a desert can be turned into a paradise.

    Now that's magic.

    -Jeff
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  29. TopTop #29
    enigmaha
    Guest

    Re: Rain

    Hi Sciguy,

    What I was addressing is not at odds with science; it’s on the cutting edge of science! And, you’re right, many physical scientists have not yet caught up but they shouldn’t be faulted for that.

    We’re in the process of a new paradigm shift on a scale equivalent, if not greater, to that of the Copernican Revoultion. Growing pains can be difficult.

    I invite you to read the works of two contemporary physicists who are also excellent writers: Brian Greene and Brian Swimme.
    I found their books to be extremely informative and exciting.
    Below are titles I particularly enjoyed and brief blurbs about them:

    The Fabric of the Cosmos: space, time and the texture of reality
    - by Brian Greene
    - From Brian Greene, one of the world’s leading physicists, comes a grand tour of the universe that makes us look at reality in a completely different way.

    The Fabric of the Cosmos is the second book on theoretical physics, cosmology and string theory written by Brian Greene, professor and co-director of Columbia's Institute for Strings, Cosmology, and Astroparticle Physics (ISCAP)

    Greene guides us toward modern science’s new and deeper understanding of the universe. From Newton’s unchanging realm in which space and time are absolute, to Einstein’s fluid conception of spacetime, to quantum mechanics’ entangled arena where vastly distant objects can bridge their spatial separation to instantaneously coordinate their behavior or even undergo teleportation, Greene reveals our world to be very different from what common experience leads us to believe. Focusing on the enigma of time, Greene establishes that nothing in the laws of physics insists that it run in any particular direction and that “time’s arrow” is a relic of the universe’s condition at the moment of the big bang. And in explaining the big bang itself, Greene shows how recent cutting-edge developments in superstring and M-theory may reconcile the behavior of everything from the smallest particle to the largest black hole. This startling vision culminates in a vibrant eleven-dimensional “multiverse,” pulsating with ever-changing textures, where space and time themselves may dissolve into subtler, more fundamental entities.

    The Elegant Universe - superstrings, hidden dimensions, and the quest for the ultimate theory
    by Brian Greene


    The Earth’s Imagination
    by Brian Swimme

    In The Earth's Imagination, cosmologist Brian Swimme places the human psyche within the fifteen billion year cosmic process in order to highlight the directions in which human consciousness is evolving today and into the future


    The Universe Story : From the Primordial Flaring Forth to the Ecozoic Era--A Celebration of the Unfolding of the Cosmos
    by Brian Swimme

    From the big bang to the present and into the next millenium, The Universe Story unites science and the humanities in a dramatic exploration of the unfolding of the universe, humanity's evolving place in the cosmos, and the boundless possibilities for our future.


    It has been some years since I read these books.
    In typing up this list for you, I was amused to see that the subtitle of Swimme’s book on string theory, ‘The Elegant Universe’, includes mention of ‘hidden dimensions’—words that caused you unnecessary alarm in my previous email.

    To date, physicists have proven the existence of 18 dimensions! I conjecture that future findings will reveal it doesn’t stop there!

    Given your love of science and your inquiring mind, I think you will enjoy these leads. I hope so, anyway.

    It’s an amazing time to be alive!

    enigmaha

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by Sciguy: View Post
    Enigmaha:
    I see that you claim the mantle of scientific training, yet you express ideas that almost all physical scientists eschew so I wonder if I might respectfully ask what kind of science training you are referring to?


    There are so many kinds of "science" claims now that it is hard to keep score. There is even "noetic science" whatever that might be (just religion in a new package so far I can tell).


    "Remaining open minded" is often code for remaining ignorant of scientific knowledge. "Hidden dimensions to reality" sounds like a rejection of what has actually been discovered by science. I am quite surprised to hear this coming from someone claiming to have been trained in science. Unless the training failed to stick, or was rejected.


    Thanks,



    Sciguy
    Chemist, PhD, Yale, 1966

    Last edited by enigmaha; 03-12-2009 at 02:54 PM.
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  30. TopTop #30
    photolite's Avatar
    photolite
     

    Re: Rain

    Apparently you have an established relationship with Dixon that might bring some baggage into your and his dialogue. I'm only remarking upon your respective words posted here.

    He didn't remark on your "celebrating" the rain with dance. He remarked on the suggestion you might "create" the rain with dance.

    You state to him...
    "You could drop a tiny bit of your atheism and lean toward Paganism a little bit more and you'd do just fine. Stop focusing so much on the seeming illogic of it all and see it as various methods of celebrating all the amazing mysteries of life instead of as an attempt to move the mysteries through anything other than changing ourselves."

    But that statement contradicts itself. The intent and purpose of pagan ritual is to "move the mysteries" as you put it.

    Your analogy of physicians with lead and mercury would be apt if physicians still treated patients as such. They don't.

    I understand your position to be somewhat superstitious and void of science. Dixon's example as I understood it is that the Easter Islanders practiced a belief system necessarily void of scientific insight with catastrophic results. You have the benefit of 21st century knowledge at your disposal but suggest, in this instance at least, it's logical to choose to ignore it in favor of superstition.

    "So a person who's working magic is attempting to cause an outcome, not necessarily by doing something ridiculous or illogical, but by working on whatever is necessary to enhance the probability of the outcome they wish for."

    The "necessary" you refer to here I understand to be superstitious ritual.
    If a physician today chose to ignore what we now know of treating humans with lead and mercury the results would also likely be catastrophic.

    What I'm hearing from you is that you don't necessarily embrace paganism or any other ism to the exclusion of science but your words sometimes sound contradictory and defensive.

    Photo

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by Braggi: View Post
    Dixon's analogy, that someone today, who is doing a dance to celebrate nature and it's processes (in particular, the gift of rain), is doing the same thing as Easter islanders deforesting an island to appease their "God" is idiotic. Sorry, I can't think of a better word to describe it. It read to me as an intended offense to me based on his wording and his quote of my words. Not sure how else to describe it.

    A similar analogy is that all physicians are trying to poison their patients because George Washington's physicians killed him with lead and mercury treatments. Therefore all physicians are poisoners with no more knowledge than those of hundreds of years ago.

    Yup, that's idiotic and I believe Dixon was being intentionally offensive.

    As I said, I expect better of Dixon, who is somebody I know, like and respect.

    -Jeff
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