Gay marriage prohibition = Nazi persecution

[Valley Oak]

The passage of Prop. 8 is the same as the Nazi persecution in Germany under Hitler. Along with Jews, gays were labeled but with a pink triangle. Make no mistake about it. This bigotry today in California is evil persecution that goes back clearly to the mass murder of homosexuals by the Nazis in the 1930s and 40s. If I had been in Germany back then I would have been executed alongside the Jews in the gas chambers and crematoriums, as many of my cohorts were. It was also the Homosexual Holocaust.

https://cghs.dade.k12.fl.us/holocaust/pink_triangle.jpg

https://cghs.dade.k12.fl.us/holocaust/homosexuals.htm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pink_triangle

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_c...on_camp_badges

https://sxnews.e-p.net.au/feature/in-memorium-4851.html

https://andrejkoymasky.com/mem/holocaust/ho08.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sydney_Pride_Centre

Edward

[Braggi]

The passage of Prop. 8 is the same as the Nazi persecution in Germany under Hitler. ...

No, it's not.

Take down this thread.

There is almost no similarity at all.

-Jeff

[artfulme]

Agree completely!!

When one group is labeled by the government/people in power as less entitled to benefits conferred on the others, THAT is fascism. A form of dictatorship, the opposite of democracy.

Thus, the violation of a basic foundation of democracy : a government of the people and answerable to the people with EVERYBODY entitled to equal rights and responsibilities, regardless of race, ethnicity, and religion, as in the 14th amendment to our constitution.

Together with the 13th amendment, that ASSURED that all citizens have, BY LAW, individually, the equal protection of the law. This basic aspect of our country, its foundation, and its promise for continuation for our children and theirs...is a matter to be celebrated as hope for all people...not just the majority, or those captured by their religion, or the well-connected.

Thus, the centuries of prejudice, bigotry and violence done to the former slaves brought to the US against their will....... was (reluctantly) recognized as citizens and were entitled to--likewise--equal rights along with the majority.

The continuing demeaning of people for their sexual proclivities and life-style is--as seen in Prop 8, the latest exercise by THE CHURCH to have all of Americans accept its own "biblical" demeaning of this group...along with its fear, hatred, and terror about ALL sex other than for procreation.

If that is YOUR theme, do it for yourself, but leave all others to their own way of life. Consenting adults people should not be hindered in their lives for the benefit of others. The inability of homosexuals
to reproduce between themselves is used to add another "justification" to reducing their worthiness and making them subject to GOVERNMENT bigotry/prejudice at the behest of THE CHURCH!!

Thus, a clear and obvious violation of the church-state separation under the constitution.

Any church, religious or other group advocating the adoption of ITS RELIGIOUS viewpoint by government (Prop 8) is advocating a violation of the constitution, clearly.

Prejudice is NOT what this country was meant to be by the BRILLIANT founders....with the 5/8-blacks rules finally overcome by the 13th and 14th, as said.

I BELIEVE IN THE SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND HATE!!!

[Valley Oak]

You are very alone on this one, Jeff. Also, I am surprised at the degree to which you are wrong as well as how arrogant.

Maybe you should delete your post before anyone else reads it?

Edward

No, it's not.

Take down this thread.

There is almost no similarity at all.

-Jeff

[Zeno Swijtink]

When one group is labeled by the government/people in power as less entitled to benefits conferred on the others, THAT is fascism. A form of dictatorship, the opposite of democracy.

I think the way you state this is too strong.

Not all differential treatment is necessarily bad. For example, children are treated differently under the law. That's good in general. Handicapped people also have special rights that depend on their handicap.

[artfulme]

You fail to understand.

->TAKING AWAY RIGHTS<- IS VASTLY DIFFERENT THAN GIVING MORE BECAUSE OF SPECIAL CIRCUMSTANCES.

The idea expressed in my post is correct...IF you are NOT denying rights to some that are GIVEN to others.

Equality of Rights, not failing to consider some people's special circumstances. If there is a reason for affirmative action, that was/is it. Even our mostly conservative recent Supreme Court recognized that, in part.

[Hot Compost]

the treatment of gay people in California is quite different from the treatment of gay people in Nazi Germany.

that would be an understatement.

the gay people that i know and that i see and read about in California are quite completely integrated into the society.

at the same time, there are many people in California that are not comfortable with gay marriage. and they expressed themselves with the Prop. 8 vote.

they're not going away, just as citizens of California who are gay are not going away.

Prop. 8 passed and California, in most places, is still a safe place to be gay. It's paradoxical, and odd - i didn't think Prop. 8 would pass.

[Braggi]

the treatment of gay people in California is quite different from the treatment of gay people in Nazi Germany.

that would be an understatement. ...

Uh, yeah. No joke. Suggesting that denial of a piece of paper to people that otherwise live in luxury is somehow comparable to the torments, degradations, and downright murder of the victims of Nazi Germany demeans the suffering of those victims. There is no comparison. None.

Prop 8 is a demonstration of the failure of a true democracy to protect minorities and that's why the founding families of this republic railed against the notion that the US should be a democracy. We have a constitutional republic founded upon the notion of individual rights that the government is supposed to be powerless to take away. We have a system of checks and balances that is supposed to insure that.

The proposition system in California is a way around the will of the founders and is a terrible way to do business, as proven by Prop 8 and so many other dogs we've passed. It is the courts that we must look to so that this wrong can be overturned.

Prop 8 is nothing like Nazism where limitations of personal freedoms came down by proclamation from the top. Prop 8 is an example of "the tyranny of the majority" which our form of government is supposed to protect us from.

Prop 8 will be overturned, either by the California Supreme Court, or, at some point by the Federal Supreme Court, assuming the people of California don't overturn it by election in the meantime.

Let's pray the CA Supremes put it right.

-Jeff

PS. I personally think the governments of these United States should have no laws having anything to do with marriage since marriage is a religious and social contract.

[MsTerry]

PS. I personally think the governments of these United States should have no laws having anything to do with marriage since marriage is a religious and social contract.

I guess you have never gone through a divorce?

[artfulme]

Take note:

A "divorce" has nothing to do with government control.

The "enforcement" of the rules of divorce is a CIVIL MATTER...and like other civil matters that courts will enforce at the behest of the parties WHO VOLUNTARILY entered into a MARITAL CONTRACTUAL relationship....like other contracts between people. The courts deem that you will honor the contract; if it is broken, there is to be a division of property; but the parties VOLUNTARILY with a pre-nup. can AGREE otherwise. And the court will enforce it.

Thus, by a PRE-NUPTIAL MARITAL AGREEMENT BY THE PARTIES, one can give up certain rights of inheritance and property-sharing...and the courts will enforce that VOLUNTARY AGREEMENT BETWEEN THEM...just as a court will enforce damages for the breach of contract for services and/or goods.

Without society's permission/agreement to have courts enforce agreements, free commerce would NEVER proceed. the enforcement of civil rights.



No relevance...no discrimination!!

[Valley Oak]

Jeff, please, reflect a bit on what you're saying.

Just for starters, what if the people getting married are atheists or agnostics? What does religion have to do with their vows? Why do you want to impose religion on people who don't want anything to do with it (just like you don't want government in your marriage)? If you can follow this debate in this direction you'll begin to see some serious holes in your reasoning. Another way of looking at it is that there are a lot of people out there, myself included, who don't want religion foisted upon them in any way, whether it be for marriage or anything else!

Can you please comment on this specific point?

Thank you,

Edward

-Jeff

PS. I personally think the governments of these United States should have no laws having anything to do with marriage since marriage is a religious and social contract.

[Braggi]

... Another way of looking at it is that there are a lot of people out there, myself included, who don't want religion foisted upon them in any way, whether it be for marriage or anything else!

Can you please comment on this specific point? ...

Great. Don't get married in a church.

I'm not really into commenting further in this thread which is a toxic pile of trash. Delete it and start a new thread if you really want to talk about marriage.

-Jeff

[Hot Compost]

did you change the title ? i thought the title used the word "Holocaust" before.

i think there's some merit, if something hurts, in saying that it hurts. it sounds like the vote on 8 hurt your feelings a lot. i don't think it makes you any smaller of a person to make an admission like that, if it is the case.

i was surprised, but not hurt. this is California. Jesus, for Prop 8 to pass with i think 60% of the vote, that's an indication that San Diego voted maybe 80% for it. Sacramento too. i didn't look at the results, i would think Humboldt, Mendocino, Sonoma, Marin, Oakland, would all vote at least 60% against it, and SF nearly 100% against it. there are some conservative corners in Silicon Valley, e.g. around Los Gatos.

is there a website that has the voting results for Prop 8 county by county ? i can only conclude that areas like San Diego and Sacramento voted overwhelmingly for it, to overcome all those counties that would have had majorities against it.

when i lived in San Diego from SF, i had sort of an interesting "moment of truth" with my co-workers. i worked at an electronics company that made radios for airplanes, including military airplanes. there were 4 of us who went out to lunch because we were "work-friends". this was during the grocery strike.

the guy who usually drove had a Lexus 4-door with air-conditioning. his radio was tuned to Rush, and he liked Rush. when the subject of the strike came up, i explained that i wasn't going to cross the picket line, that i thought it was perfectly reasonable for the grocery people to have health care - they're the ones that have to pick the bugs off the produce.

he expressed his surprise that i was pro-labor, and i said something like, "i'm a liberal democrat on most issues." then his classic response, "i didn't think people like you worked here."

that's pretty much San Diego. Hillcrest is snickeringly referred to as GayCrest by a lot of young people, until they realize that's not copacetic in the work place. it's a wierd combination of Christian pre-occupation, military mentality, and health orientatedness - "i'm working to diversify my cardio routine".


well, i was wrong. San Diego broke down about 53%/ 46% in favor of Prop 8.

https://vote.sos.ca.gov/Returns/props/37.htm

SF only voted 77% against Prop 8.

https://www.sfgate.com/webdb/prop8results/

in the Top 20 counties that voted for Prop 8, the biggest was San Bernardino with about 320K for 160K against, San Bern. broke 67% in favor of Prop 8.

then Riverside about 240K for, 130K against.

LA went 50% 50%, 1.3 million people voting for, 1.3 million against Prop 8.

San Francisco only had 240K voters, total ?


the No On Prop 8 website
https://www.noonprop8.com/

the way it was worded on the ballot

"Proposition 8:

ELIMINATES RIGHT OF SAME-SEX COUPLES TO MARRY. INITIATIVE CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENT
Changes California Constitution to eliminate right of same-sex couples to marry. Provides that only a marriage between a man and a woman is valid or recognized in California."


do gay couples in California have all the rights accorded to hetero. couples under other civil rights laws (corporations providing health care for employees' partners, just the way they would for a hetero. couple, etc.)?

[pjpete]

Oh yes it is....If you think for one minute that Warren and the rest of his cronies love gay people just because Jesus urges us to love thy neighbor as ye love thyself, think again my friends.

No, it's not.

Take down this thread.

There is almost no similarity at all.

-Jeff

[Braggi]

Oh yes it is...

Bull.

These are victims of Nazi persecution: https://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/...ocaust00_1.jpg

You want to learn something about Nazi persecution? Check out this site: The Holocaust

Read that and tell me how Prop 8 compares.

-Jeff

[Hot Compost]

got a little carried away in that last post.

found this picture, it sums up what happened with Prop 8.

LA Times Prop 8



interesting how mid & Northern Cal. counties near the Ocean and Lake Tahoe tended to vote against Prop 8. something for sociologists to study.

[Braggi]

got a little carried away in that last post.

found this picture, it sums up what happened with Prop 8. ...

Thanks for that Compost. That's so much more useful than demonizing people who donated to the Yes on 8 campaign. The fact is there are people who have deeply held beliefs that are different from my own and are willing to put their money where their beliefs are. The map shows where rights crusaders need to focus their education efforts.

Thankfully, in a vast majority, the children of the Yes on 8 folks think more like we do on the subject so it's only a matter of time, and not much time, before another vote overturns Prop 8, or, more properly, a court of high enough jurisdiction throws it out as the unconstitutional trash that it truly is.

-Jeff

[Valley Oak]

In that horrifying mass grave, along with the Jews, are many homosexuals, Communists, Socialists (aka Social Democrats), gypsies, mentally & physically challenged people, as well as other groups. Eugenics was one of the ideological cornerstones of Nazi extermination and 'queers' were high on the list!

Please do your homework.

How would it make you feel if suddenly, in a ballot initiative, Jews were prohibited from being able to marry? What do you think the ultimate significance of such a despicable action is? It is the same persecution without the mass graves. That's what you're refusing to see for lack of imagination. But the guns and prisons are there because the state has an armed police force to enforce our bigoted laws. Like an iceberg, the greater dimension of the same evil lies underneath but you are looking only at the tip, which is what is visible superficially.

The logical conclusion of gay marriage prohibition are mass graves of 'faggots,' 'queers,' 'perverts,' and all other 'social deviants.'

If we let this one fly then we are all guilty of inviting this to happen to yet another group, maybe Jews, maybe Pagans. Let's vote on a state initiative to prohibit all of the immoral Pagan filth from getting married so they can no longer propagate! Yes! That sounds like a wonderful idea. Vundavah! Yabol. Zig Heil.

Edward

Bull.

These are victims of Nazi persecution: https://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/...ocaust00_1.jpg

You want to learn something about Nazi persecution? Check out this site: The Holocaust

Read that and tell me how Prop 8 compares.

-Jeff

[Braggi]

... Please do your homework.

Edward, I know you're angry and reactionary. Don't be stupid too.

Have you done your homework? If you have then you could justify the title of this thread by posting pictures of the mass graves of the victims of Prop 8.
... unless of course the victims of Nazi persecution and the victims of Prop 8 have nothing in common.

The victims of Prop 8 are being denied state recognition of marriage. That's a far cry from the holocaust. Your comparing them denigrates the memories of those who suffered under the Nazis. Failure of the state to recognize gay marriage is a temporary setback. Death is permanent and life can't be restored. Starting to understand the differences?

-Jeff

[Valley Oak]

Jeff, please re-read the post you responded to. I have edited it.

Thanks,

Edward

Edward, I know you're angry and reactionary. Don't be stupid too.

Have you done your homework? If you have then you could justify the title of this thread by posting pictures of the mass graves of the victims of Prop 8.
... unless of course the victims of Nazi persecution and the victims of Prop 8 have nothing in common.

The victims of Prop 8 are being denied state recognition of marriage. That's a far cry from the holocaust. Your comparing them denigrates the memories of those who suffered under the Nazis. Failure of the state to recognize gay marriage is a temporary setback. Death is permanent and life can't be restored. Starting to understand the differences?

-Jeff

[Braggi]

... The logical conclusion of gay marriage prohibition are mass graves of 'faggots,' 'queers,' 'perverts,' and all other 'social deviants.' ...

Edward, you're losing your grip.

The logical conclusion of Prop 8 is a Supreme Court decision legalizing gay marriage across the country.

Even if it takes forty years (Goddess forbid) that's where such state measures are taking us. Let's all give thanks we have Obama in the White House and the next appointments to the Supreme Court will be made by him.

-Jeff

[Valley Oak]

Jeff and all,

If I may, I'm going to ask you another favor. Please watch this video below. You just might be singing a different tune:

YouTube - Christian Anti-Defamation League: "Bashing"

Thank you again,

Edward

Edward, you're losing your grip.

The logical conclusion of Prop 8 is a Supreme Court decision legalizing gay marriage across the country.

Even if it takes forty years (Goddess forbid) that's where such state measures are taking us. Let's all give thanks we have Obama in the White House and the next appointments to the Supreme Court will be made by him.

-Jeff

[Braggi]

Jeff and all,

If I may, I'm going to ask you another favor. Please watch this video below. You just might be singing a different tune: ...

Edward, you are failing to make your point.

Take down the thread.

There is no relation between Prop 8, which was democratically enacted and Nazi persecution, which was top down.

Give it up.

-Jeff

[Valley Oak]

Jeff, I'm not taking down this thread, my friend. It is going to stay here whether you like it or not. You are not the moderator despite your condescending and grossly mistaken attitude. If you don't like what I post, too bad!

Clear?

Edward

Edward, you are failing to make your point.

Take down the thread.

There is no relation between Prop 8, which was democratically enacted and Nazi persecution, which was top down.

Give it up.

-Jeff

[Valley Oak]

Nazi's started taking away Jews, Gays, and the like prior to anyconcentration camp. They started with placing them in locked ghettos,taking away their rights, etc. Gay marriage prohibition is a damn good example of taking people's rights away.

Adolph Hitler was democratically elected to power by the German people. That does not make what he did ok.

Edward

[Hot Compost]

In that horrifying mass grave, along with the Jews, are many homosexuals, Communists, Socialists (aka Social Democrats), gypsies, mentally & physically challenged people, as well as other groups. Eugenics was one of the ideological cornerstones of Nazi extermination and 'queers' were high on the list!

and about 100 million people died in World War 2. many of them were Americans, Englishmen, Canadians, and Russians - all who gave up their lives to stop the German war machine.

if you're concerned about the demonization of gays by Nazi Germany, let's consider who financed the German War machine. the Bush family was integral to the financing of the German War machine. they were caught loaning money to Nazi Germany in 1942 - after America had entered the war.

George Bush: The Unauthorized Biography

The 2 George Bush's are 2 of the last living descendants of Prescott Bush, a genuine Nazi war criminal who escaped scot-free and went on to run for Connecticut senator.

if you're pissed off about what happened to gay people in WW2, talk to Mr. Bush and Mr. Bush.

better yet, work to stop the mass murder that's going on today and, if current trends persist, tomorrow. the killing & persecution of Muslims by Israel & America, via the War on/of Terror.

Muslims are being treated today the way gay people & Jewish people were treated by Nazi Germany.

[MsTerry]

How many of your friends have been killed and or locked up because of prop 8.
Just give us a rough estimate to shake up the masses.

Nazi's started taking away Jews, Gays, and the like prior to anyconcentration camp. They started with placing them in locked ghettos,taking away their rights, etc. Gay marriage prohibition is a damn good example of taking people's rights away.

Adolph Hitler was democratically elected to power by the German people. That does not make what he did ok.

Edward

[Zeno Swijtink]

Nazi's started taking away Jews, Gays, and the like prior to anyconcentration camp. They started with placing them in locked ghettos,taking away their rights, etc. Gay marriage prohibition is a damn good example of taking people's rights away.

Adolph Hitler was democratically elected to power by the German people. That does not make what he did ok.

Edward

I think a better comparison, one that speaks more directly to history here in the USA, is the barring of interracial marriages.

Only 42 years ago, in 1967, Supreme Court invalidated a Virginia statute barring nonwhites from marrying whites. This was a hundred odd years after the end of slavery!

[Valley Oak]

Here is part of your answer (and please actually view it, unlike Jeff):

YouTube - Christian Anti-Defamation League: "Bashing"

By the way, these people are not my 'friends.' They are human beings like you and me and if they are attacked and murdered then it is an offense against you and me and everyone else as well. Reflect on this.

Edward

How many of your friends have been killed and or locked up because of prop 8.
Just give us a rough estimate to shake up the masses.

[theindependenteye]

>>>If I may, I'm going to ask you another favor. Please watch this video below. You just might be singing a different tune:
YouTube - Christian Anti-Defamation League: "Bashing"


Dear Edward—

Thanks for the link. I watched it. and it's very well done, makes its point very clearly. I doubt that any well-informed person would argue that there's not a lot of violence and other forms of persecution, both organized and disorganized, against gays.

But I have to agree with Jeff that the video doesn't support the point you're making, which as I understand it is that this kind of violence is the precursor of death camps, or that there's a moral equivalence between various attacks by rabid individuals and systematic, state-sponsored extermination of large categories of the population.

It seems to me that insisting on this kind of equation in fact tends to undermine the LGBT movement itself. I don't think social movements are well served (except for very short-term gains) by donning their victimhoods too long and downplaying the advances that have been made.

When I was a kid in Iowa in the mid-1950's, a bit over 50 years ago, no one in our town could have remotely imagined—

* That an openly gay person could keep any job, except maybe hairdressers in New York;
* That a known-gay person would be allowed to teach, even at the university level;
* That gay bars would some day not be universally mob-controlled and harassed by police;
* That gays would ever be portrayed in movies or tv as anything but absurdly hyper-swish;
* That bookstores would ever have shelves devoted to gay literature;
* That any town would conceivably pass ordinances prohibiting discrimination against gays in housing;
* That any actor could maintain a career if publicly known to be gay;
* That any gay anywhere could be elected to public office;
* That gays-in-the-military would ever be seriously considered;
* That a majority (or even a substantial minority) of the American public would ever regard gays as anything other than sick, twisted, perverted, dangerous or pitiful;
* That any states would ever decriminalize homosexual acts between consenting adults;
* That marriage between gays would ever be seriously proposed, much less regarded as a Constitutionally-protected right;
* And that calling them fags, fairies, or queers wasn't just the natural thing to do.

All that certainly doesn't gainsay that there's an enormous amount of violence and rage directed at gays, much of it (I think) as backlash spurred by the enormous successes of the movement and the beleaguered sense of disenfranchisement on the part of the Radical Right and the Lumpenproletariat. Or that parts of the country aren't still 50 years behind the times.

But I think the list above argues against your proposition that these instances of violence or the organized "marriage-protection" movements signal a vast likelihood of state terror against this population. I see the tide moving very much in the opposite direction, though I'm not going to argue that the tide could never reverse. But how does your idea of the movement's dire failure serve the movement?

Peace & joy—
Conrad