Socialism is the answer

[Franklin Johnson]

The United States must now embark on the road to Socialism as the answer to the failures of capitalism. The right wing has had its way with true free market reforms for the last eight years and look at what it has brought us.

We need a Social Democracy as in the European countries. Sweden, Germany, France, and Spain are just some of the examples of enormous Social Democratic success stories.

The U.S. is by far the wealthiest country in the world and yet we don't have free health care for all as our European counterparts have been enjoying for almost a century. Social Democratic administrations are the ones who have championed gay rights and the legalization of same-sex marriage, as well as many other progressive social reforms.

The time has come for the people to take control and reclaim their country.

Franklin

[decterlove]

While I would certainly like the US to move in a "socialist" direction, no "ism" is the answer.

"ism's" are the problem....they are simply dogmatic reactions to whatever prevailing injustices are in place at the time the "ism" is born.

Perhaps government is an art and not a science? And the Universe is just a place that contains a lot of relatives.

The United States must now embark on the road to Socialism as the answer to the failures of capitalism.

[Photoguy]

A socially responsible democracy is the best goal I can think of. In supporting the idea of an American society whose educational, medical and transportation needs are met with the aid of government we must be careful not to call it socialism. Stalin called himself a socialist, the stigma is huge and it may cause people who might be in complete agreement with your goals to reject what you say. I don't mean pretend to be something other than what you(we) are, I mean be careful about using emotionally charged buzzwords. I think the only good buzzword is democracy.

[Lady bug]

I don't think so, capitalism is king. Obama has already talked to the Federal Reserve and they have told him what he can and can't do. Like Bill Clinton, health care will be on the back burner along with that tax rebate. P.S. Isn't it funny that people complained about the high cost of housing and gas just 6 months ago, and now both are are cheap. Do we thank Bush for that?

[Braggi]

... Isn't it funny that people complained about the high cost of housing and gas just 6 months ago, and now both are are cheap. Do we thank Bush for that?

Cheap compared to what? Gas is nearly double what it was when The Leader commandeered the White House. I'd say he served his masters quite well. And the Military Industrial Political Complex has been having the orgy of all time at taxpayer expense (Bush can thank our children and grandchildren for picking up the tab).

I thank Bush for nothing. He's the biggest thief of all time. He should spend the rest of his life in maximum security.

-Jeff

[d-cat]

The United States must now embark on the road to Socialism as the answer to the failures of capitalism.

There hasn't been free market capitalism in the US since at least 1913 when the Federal Reserve Act was passed. The economy is manipulated and controlled. Look into the subject of the Federal Reserve, and the business cycles they create, and the money they print up out of thin air, and what that does to your money. In free market capitalism, you don't have governments giving billions to corporations, to bail them out.

The U.S. is by far the wealthiest country in the world

We're over 10 trillion in debt! There's not enough space anymore on the national debt clock! Many tourist sights overseas won't even accept the dollar, and countries are preparing to dump it! It's easy to appear wealthy if you borrow 10 trillion dollars! But it won't appear that way for long!

and yet we don't have free health care for all as our European counterparts have been enjoying for almost a century.

Free health care? Who do you think pays for "free" health care?

The time has come for the people to take control and reclaim their country.

By giving more power to the government???


------------------------------------------------------


CFR Bankers Plan for Financial Crash (article from 2000)
https://www.larouchepub.com/other/2000/2729_cfr.html

Project 80s The CFR's program for "Controlled Disintigration" (article from 2001)
https://www.newswithviews.com/socialism/socialism1.htm

CFR head Richard Haass confronted on planned economic collapse
https://www.jonesreport.com/article/10_08/10haass.html

[Moon]

For me, comments like these read like poetry; what does your comment mean?

While I would certainly like the US to move in a "socialist" direction, no "ism" is the answer.
"ism's" are the problem....they are simply dogmatic reactions to whatever prevailing injustices are in place at the time the "ism" is born.
Perhaps government is an art and not a science? And the Universe is just a place that contains a lot of relatives.

[toddwquigley]

It's amazing how short sighted and gullible people are, and it's because at the core they are just selfish, lazy and don't want to be responsible for themselves.

Only an uninformed and ignorant fool would believe that Obama is anything more than a puppet for the powers that truly run the World, or that he will follow through on anything he has said (He has yet to fullfill any of the promises he made when he was campaigning to become a State Senator, so why would he change?). Obama is outwardly a mirror image of George Bush, but they have the exact same agenda inside.

Wait until he declares war on Pakistan and/or Iran, and raises your taxes through the roof to pay for it all. Forget about that healthcare he promised you, because he never had any plans to follow through.

The elite of the CFR and Trilateral Comission, have the public completely fooled and distracted as they slowly but surely create a World goverment where there is no middle class, just lots of people that are poor or barely above it, and a very small, very rich ruling class, the exact oposite of what you were promised.

Welcome to spending your life paying interest on credit you should have never used, the banks own you now. The own your house, they own your car, they own your life, and they tell you what you can and can't do, and if you don't, the police lock you up, and the banks take back their possesions that you thought were yours.

Say goodbye to your money and your freedoms, that's what you get for believing what logic tells you is impossible just because it sounds good. Socialism and bigger government have never produced anything but enforced mediocrity, and an enslaved and owned people that have no freedom and no control.

Welcome to the new World order that you gleefully chose to support and be part of, a ruling class that only cares how much you can do for them.

Bye, bye America, it was nice while it lasted...

[Neshamah]

It is not too late to take back our country, and Obama/McCain certainly showed more promise than Clinton/Guiliani/Romney/Bush et al. People who voted for the major candidates claimed they wanted change. Maybe they were woefully misled, but political involvement does not end with election day. Now is the time to demand from Obama the more open, bipartisan, and responsible government he promised. It is also time to step up the demonstrations against U.S. foreign aggression, because the last thing we want is for Obama to start a war with nuclear Pakistan. Richard Nixon gave us greater civil rights and the EPA because ordinary Americans demanded it. If we speak up and demand more open government and an end to foreign entanglements, Barack Obama will have to listen.

We should also look forward to 2010. Most uninformed voters stay home in non-Presidential election years. If we start now, this is an opportunity for third parties to start making headway at the local level. Despite a Presidential candidate so awful conspiracy theorists are calling him a Neocon plant, the Libertarian Party continues to receive the most votes of any third party because they field the most candidates at the local level. There is no reason why the Green Party or other third parties cannot do the same thing.

It is easy to make observations about what to do at the national level, but it is worth the effort to run at the local level. When you are a candidate, organizations you have never heard of will suddenly care what you think, and more people will listen to what you have to say. Local races are not won by money and media access, but rather by going door to door and meeting voters face to face. Once independent and third party candidates start winning offices, we will be in a better position to run for higher office and start making the necessary reforms at the national level to restore civic and economic power to individuals.

~ Neshamah

It's amazing how short sighted and gullible people are...

...Welcome to the new World order that you gleefully chose to support and be part of, a ruling class that only cares how much you can do for them.

Bye, bye America, it was nice while it lasted...

[toddwquigley]

Ya know, it's just ridiculous really. This country has changed so much in the 44 years I have been here, and I am hard pressed to find where it really, truly changed for the good when you add it all up. Many of the so called "positive changes" have brought so much baggage with them that they not only negate the positive effects, but actually but it in the red. Welfare has caused much more damage in the form of people addicted to laziness than any good. Women liberated themselves, and the majority are more unhappy and confused than they were before. Abortion became commonplace and legal, and now it is basically birth control for the lazy, and it leaves women feeling horrible about themselves for the rest of their lives.

The biggest problem has been all the social programs, because the truth is that there are just as many, if not more people with, for lack of a better way of putting it, crappy lives, and where people used to help each other out and take care of their neighbors, they now turn their back on those with "crappy" lives because they know that there is a Government social program that will do it for them. Because of this, we have completely lost our sense of community as a nation, and have become an insular Nation, filled with insular people. One of our greatest strengths and positive qualities has been negated by making the responsibility of taking care of each the Government's, and thereby freeing people to be selfish. In other words, the positives that social programs bring on an individual scale are greatly overshadowed by the negetive effects on society as a whole. I won't even get into the rampant abuse of all of these programs, suffice it to say that approximately 80%+ of the people using them are abusing them.

There are yet dozens of more examples of how human nature will abuse anything that they get for free or is a right that I could list, and I'm sure the reader can thing of some themselves. There are two great maxims that apply: "If it's free, grab as many as you can, because it probably isn't any good", and "There is no such thing as a free lunch" (Free medical, free education etc.).

People love to blame whatever government is in charge for their problems because they don't want to take responsibility for themselves and their actions. The truth is that we already have all the government help anybody needs to make a success of themselves if they were just willing to work hard, make decisions thinking about the future instead of right now, save and give to charity a small portion of their wages no matter how little they make. stop buying things they want and just buy things they need, and most importantly stop being so insecure and looking to the opinion of other people and possessions to make them feel good about themselves.

The so called success of European "social democracies", is not the form of government, it's the fact that Europe has a lot more practice with living together, and they are slow and careful to integrate change. Primarily however, they are happier with much, much less than even lower middle class American take for granted.
People forget that most Europeans don't have their own private vehicle and the ability to drive wherever they want, whenever they feel like it. Most have never bought a home and had to meet a mortgage, they just inherit the family house. Most can't afford all the constant entertainment that we are addicted to and take for granted. Most can't get much of a higher education because the government only pays for it according to how well you test. Most can't afford the better doctors, and spend hours and hours waiting to see a state doctor.

It looks pretty good when you go over there for vacation, but actually living in it is much different. People love to talk about how the Europeans only work 30 something hour weeks, but they forget all the above when considering it, and the fact that they usually pay around 50% in taxes. They talk about the 6 week paid vacations, but don't realize that the vast majority cannot afford to do much but stay at home, or maybe go camping. They don't realize that except for service industries, there is virtually no privately owned business, that in socialist and union jobs, one only advances based upon time in position, or if the people above you decide to let you in. They don't realize that the majority of Europeans have only one career for their whole life. They forget that Europeans come over here for the opportunity to succeed on their own merits that they don't have at home. They are completelt blind to the fact that European countries don't have to fund large militaries to defend them from the World's crazies because we do it for them.

People are so ignorant, shortsighted, illogical and selfish it just amazes me, they will cut off their nose to spite their face based upon some twisted logic that is completely infactual, and unfortunately they vote.

I am very dissappointed in America right now, and I feel as though the people of the Nation have betrayed themselves, and me along with them. I had a missguided faith that people had common sense, that when it came down to it, we were Americans, and we were smarter and better than the rest of the world, that we worked harder and better, that we as a nation had internal strength that other people did, that we still were unique in the World, but sadly we are not.

The generation that lived through the depression, the war, and went on to make America the shining star of the World is dying off, and while many of the baby boomers had those same qualities because they were passed down to them, just as many did not, and the majority of the people born in the last 40 years are some of the most selfish, self centered, illresponsible, lazy, ignorant, and lacking in logic and wisdom, of all the people ever to have walked this Earth.

Obama is the complete antithesis of what he said he was, and will produce none of his promises, just the opposite. The evidence was there for all to see, and yet in their selfishness and ignorance, people chose to ignore it. Now we shall pay, with 4 years of so many lies and manipulations that will make people long for the simple days of Bush. In 2012, many of the middle class will have fallen and there will be more poor than we have now, and the middle class as we know it today will cease to exist. It will have been replaced with financially enslaved worker bees, who's standard of living has lowered by half. By 2014 if not sooner, the country and the World will look just like 1938, and the results that came in 1939 will come again. Those that forget history are doomed to repeat it.

[theindependenteye]

>>Obama is the complete antithesis of what he said he was, and will produce none of his promises, just the opposite. The evidence was there for all to see, and yet in their selfishness and ignorance, people chose to ignore it. Now we shall pay, with 4 years of so many lies and manipulations that will make people long for the simple days of Bush. In 2012, many of the middle class will have fallen and there will be more poor than we have now, and the middle class as we know it today will cease to exist. It will have been replaced with financially enslaved worker bees, who's standard of living has lowered by half. By 2014 if not sooner, the country and the World will look just like 1938, and the results that came in 1939 will come again.

I disagree with most of your analysis. But putting that aside, I'm curious what flows from this for you personally. Your writing reads almost like a suicide note: absolute, hopeless rage. It seems a dead end. Where do you see yourself going in response to your image of the rest of us and the general state you describe?

That's a real question. I'd really like to know.

>>Those that forget history are doomed to repeat it.

On the other hand, one might say that those who take all their lessons from history have a homicidal maniac as a teacher.

Cheers--
Conrad

[toddwquigley]

Wow, you are completely lost, if you disagree, you already know I disagree with you.

Enjoy your fantasy World, you must sure hate reality.

Where am I going with it? the same place I have been: I work hard, I am debt free, I give to charities, I help my friends, family and neighbors as long as I see them helping themselves, generally all those things that most liberals talk about but don't do because they expect other people to do for them.

Have you spent much time living in a communist country, say Russia? Tell me about when you lived in Europe, and your personal experiences with their government. Tell me about how Europe is the land of opportunity for small business, and that's why Americans rush to France to open a business (Oh wait, it's the other way round).

The majority of my friends are European and probably half are from countries of the former USSR, Not one of them would ever trade American capitalism for what they left, in fact they cannot believe that America actually voted a socialist into office as they know from personal experience that socialism is not the answer, as do I.

It's nice to talk about socialism from the comfort of a capitalist country, it's another thing to have lived in it.

Grow up, get a job, work 60 hours a week, pay all your bills on time, get out of debt, stop buying needless shit to make yourself feel better about yourself, stop thinking what other people think about you, give your spare time and money to charities, help people you don't know for no reason that it's the right thing to do, pay your taxes, buy your own medical insurance, pay for your own college education by working your way through school and get a life.

40% of Americans pay no taxes, and they account for 90% of all the social programs. The funny thing is that until these social programs were available to them, only about 15% of the people using them would have qualified. Quite simply, people don't work, they don't strive to get ahead because the government (those of us that do pay taxes and don't use the social programs) takes care of them. Your beloved social programs are the bane of America, because socialism promotes mediocrity. The people that really need them, only use them for a short while to get self sufficient again after a bad decision in life (Yes, it is ALL your responsibility, there are no victims, only people that made the wrong decision)

Everybody has decisions to make in life, and right or wrong, you are responsible for their results. Think this is bull shit? Just go to court and see what the judge says when you explain that you had a bad childhood, you are insecure, so you turned to drugs, lost all your money and just had to steal to support your habit.

This is life, and when you turn 18, you are responsible for everything you do. It's not your parents fault, it's not the fault of your bad childhood, it's your responsibility to provide for yourself, even if this means working at McDonalds, living in a hostel, taking the bus and getting counseling for your rotten childhood.

Got ran over by a car? Nobody forced you to walk across the road at that moment. Wallet stolen? Nobody forced you to leave it in the car. Etc. etc.

I can say this because I have had it as bad as any, and worse than most. I have had a lot of heartbreaking setbacks in life, and yet I have continually rose above it by sheer determination not to be one that didn't.

In my life, failure is not an option, there is always a way to move forward no matter how far my bad decisions have set me back. I have never turned to any of the myraid social programs, because I knew I was of the 95% of the population that didn't need them if I just got off my ass and made it happen. I have been in debt 6 figures with a income that was just above minimum wage, and I didn't file bankruptcy.

Socialism is the exact oposite, failure is not only expected, it's even encouraged. Socialism is for losers, and Obama is certainly a socialist of the first degree, he is also simply a puppet for the very people I am sure you hate; corrupt big money. There is nothing more they would rather have than a socialist nation, so that all the little worker bees are slaves to the banks, and they can sit on top. The same people that controlled Bush, control Obama, only much, much more so.

You voted for the very thing you hate and you are too deluded by your own selfishness to see it. Wait a year, and when Obama has done the exact opposite of what he promised just like he did in the Illinois senate, maybe you will start to see the truth. You can save yourself a year, if you just look at what he promised to the people of illinois, and then look what at what he actually delivered.

Yep, you voted for George Bush III....

As far as your comment that history is a homocidal maniac; As usual most liberals make no sense except to themselves. Since you make no distinct reference, one can only assume that you are refering to history itself, in which case my point is more apt than ever. If you are refering to any of the World's great despots of the last 100 years, every single one of them was a socialist: Lenin, Stalin, Hitler, Castro, Ho Chi Minh, Pol Pot, Tito etc, etc, every one was a socialist that told the poeple what they wanted to hear and then did whatever they felt like.

This is the exact same history that Obama has: Lots of big speeches in front of huge adoring crowds, telling them it's the government's fault and that he has the answer to save them (sounds just like all the above despots does it not), the big difference of course is that Obama doesn't really have any power. The first time he doesn't do what Soros, Roubini and the others of the financial and therefore ruling elite tell him to do, they will open their files on him and see that he is quickly removed from power.

What so many people on the extreme left and right don't understand because they are blinded in their hate, is that there is really no difference between the two inside. They just pretend to be different to play off of your fears, and it works like a charm, you in fact fell for it hook, line and sinker just like most Americans. "I hate Bush, so therefore I will vote for the Messiah, Obama because he tells me what I want to hear, and McCain is just another Bush because Obama told me so". Well guess what? There's no difference, they are two sides of the same coin. It may be heads, it may be tails, but it's still a quarter. It's all about money and control for the people of the financial and ruling elite, and you like so many others fell for their ploy.

There is no hopelessness or rage in me, and it's certainly not a suicide note, so you might want to re-calivrate your intuition, or whatever it is that you are reading into it. It's simply a statement of facts, and a hope that it makes other people aware and mad enough that they decide to not buy into the game. The country is not going to be saved by the far left or the right. IF it will be saved, it will be by the people in the middle, the people that work hard, save hard, take care of each other and love their country. The people that don't rely on their government to do anything for them except to carry the mail, print the currency, secure the borders, and defend us from physical harm, both from within and from without.

Ron Paul (R) , Ralph Nadar (I) and Dennis Kuchinich (D) have been marginalized by their parties and the media as unimportant kook-pots, but all 3 have spent their lives fighting for the citizens of the Republic, and all three preach the same basic message, and that message is pretty close to what I have written here.

Kennedy was right when he said: "Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country". At that point in time, the Democratic party was a power of positive change, a party of moderates, not the party of extreme liberal socialism it is today. JFK would be ashamed to see how his party which was a force for good has become the party of the angry, the lazy, the selfish, the extreme liberal marxist, and ultimately at the top, the party of the financial and ruling elite, just as at the top of the Rebublican party, where the exact same people are.

Why do I waste my time on you? Because maybe, just maybe, I can convince another person to start thinking for themselves, and become part of the solution instead of the problem.

[Braggi]

... People forget that most Europeans don't have their own private vehicle and the ability to drive wherever they want, whenever they feel like it. Most have never bought a home and had to meet a mortgage, they just inherit the family house. Most can't afford all the constant entertainment that we are addicted to and take for granted. Most can't get much of a higher education because the government only pays for it according to how well you test. Most can't afford the better doctors, and spend hours and hours waiting to see a state doctor. ...

Sure is interesting how you come off as so educated and everyone else is so ignorant. Thing is, your education is full of ... holes to say the least. I spent three weeks in France recently and really spent some time with some locals; a good bit of it in locally owned cars. Most of what you say is just not true. Have you ever been to Europe or have you just learned about it from right wing talk radio?

The pit you are describing us falling into with the election of Obama sounds a lot like the one we're trying to get out of that Bush has been digging for us over the last eight years. Where have you been? You talk about history as though you're the only one who's been paying attention, but bits and pieces don't make up a whole, especially when those bits and pieces are viewed through such a dark and myopic lens.

I don't think socialism is the answer, but then, I don't think any "ism" is the answer. We've suffered under enough isms lately and it's time to dump some of them while not forgetting the kind of thinking that created them. Let's try isolationism and corporate globalism to start with. And then there's demonization, but that's not really an ism, I suppose.

I don't completely trust Obama either, mainly because of the company he keeps. I wish he had more liberal advisors, for instance. On the other hand, I heard an hour long interview he gave on the radio two years ago, before he was actually a candidate for president. His positions and his messages haven't moved an inch since then. Usually I have no problem with some political "flip flopping" because I want politicians smart enough to be able to change their minds when circumstances and information change. But Obama's consistency sounded a lot like honesty to me. He's promised to keep the books open so We the People know what he and "his" government are doing. That's so many orders of magnitude better than The Leader has given us the last eight years I can hardly contain myself.

I think the times are going to get better in a lot of ways. With hope restored and hate diminished, We the People can do a lot to make things better.

I really hope you have a wonderful four years, at least.

-Jeff

[toddwquigley]

Actually yes, I have lived, not just visited, in England, Russia and Germany (Where I met and married my former wife). Furthermore my current girlfriend is French; she has a masters, and came here because she could not find a decent paying job, or have the opportunity to open a business or buy a house. Yes we go back twice a year. and again, the majority of the people don't have cars, they use public transportation that we don't have. They inherit their homes, and after taxes, they don't have much for vacations and luxuries. It's nice that you saw the better side of France, there are people that live as you note, but it's nothing like America.

It's great that you spent 3 weeks on vacation seeing all the best parts and having locals tell you how great they have it, but as I have noted, a vacation does not a realistic experience make. I have traveled a lot of the World, and while I generally have a great time, I temporize my views knowing that what I have seen is a very small and slanted part of the big picture.

History? Well I have a BA's in both Modern World History (20th century) and English Lit, and an MBA in economics, I taught English and History at Cerro Coso Community College. So, my view of history is not full of holes, your short and happy experience in Europe upon which you draw large conclusions however leaves me to believe that yours might be.

My simple point is that Europeans enjoy a system of government that will never work in America, and really doesn't work over there. Really, what great strides in science have been made in Europe since WWII? Yes, there are some, but nothing like what we have done here, and the simple reason for that is capitalism.

Another point that you seem to miss is that I am not right wing at all, I am a centrist. As such I get my information from many sources, and knowing that most of it is slanted towards a certain political goal, I filter the spin and search for the truth. It seems that far too many people get their information only from people and entities that they agree with. What good does this do? The left and the right will always spout their spin, and I listen to neither much.

You also seemed to miss the biggest point which that there is absolutely no real difference from the left and the right once you get to the top, because they are both controlled by the same financial elite. Yes, that's right, there's no real difference between Bush and Obama, they are two sides of the same coin.

The fact that so many people believe there is a difference is a measure of how well they are being played by the financial elite. Since the country is polarized to begin with, it makes their job much easier. The left hates the right, and will do anything their party says because of it and vice versa. There will be no change with Obama, it's simply a changing of the guard from one puppet to another, the only discernable difference is that the Bush family is actually among the elite that truly call the shots. There will be none of the big changes Obama promised, and the proof of that is his prior record.

Think back over your lifetime and tell me where there has ever been real change from on President to the next. They do a biunch of small things that they play upto keep you distracted, but the goal is simple: A World Government, run by a small group of elites that control a vast population of worker bees that are financially enslaved and are therefore unable to do anything about it. Look at all the social spending Bush approved, virtually every program either side put in front of him, and Obama will do the same. No, I'm not some conspiracy theory person, this is just the truth that you don't hear on CNN. Virtually anyone with an economics degree coud tell you this IF they wanted to, but since most have higher aspirations, they will likely not.

You don't like the war, well you had better get used to it, because Obama will keep us tied up in war just like Bush did because the Middle East must be under control too. Especially the Mid East with all it's lovely oil.

Alternative energy? Yeah right, sounds good... The only alternative energy that is economically feasable for the next decade is nuclear power, everything else only exists because of subsidies. Yes, we can eventually move away from such heavy use of oil, but we are not going to until most of it is gone because economically it is the only plan that works.

Want more? I'll be back after dinner, just remember: Bush=Obama because the office of the President is purely symbolic. The Rothchild's, Rockefeller's, Bush's and other families that actually control the World's economy are surely very amused by the antics of the proles.

"War is peace, slavery is freedom, ignorance is strength".

The last one especially applies to the general public, because the less people question the big picture and focus on the distractions, the stronger becomes the control of those in control

[theindependenteye]

>>Enjoy your fantasy World, you must sure hate reality.

Todd--

Sorry, I thought I was asking a simple question out of curiosity.

>>Where am I going with it? the same place I have been: I work hard, I am debt free, I give to charities, I help my friends, family and neighbors as long as I see them helping themselves...

Fine. So I gather that you're reacting to the election by posting these notes and otherwise nothing special. But when you end a post with "Bye bye America, it was nice while it lasted," after describing a world in iron clutches, I wondered how you could go on with business as usual.

>>Grow up, get a job, work 60 hours a week, pay all your bills on time, get out of debt, stop buying needless shit to make yourself feel better about yourself, stop thinking what other people think about you, give your spare time and money to charities, help people you don't know for no reason that it's the right thing to do, pay your taxes, buy your own medical insurance, pay for your own college education by working your way through school and get a life.

Well, I pretty much do all that, except that I've never got out of debt because I've never been *in* debt, except for a 30-yr mortgage. As for growing up, you'd have to ask my wife her opinion on that. Do you automatically assume that anyone who doesn't agree with your politics is a lazy, mooching scumbag?

>>There is no hopelessness or rage in me, and it's certainly not a suicide note, so you might want to re-calivrate your intuition...

Glad to know that. In your several posts you sketched a portrait in which I didn't detect a ray of hope or possibility. But since I missed that, I'm probably not going to be one of those you hope will wake up.

I'd be glad to talk about this stuff further and try to explain what I meant about the lessons of history, but there's not much point if it just results in an insulting, abusive rant. That's my subjective response; you likely have a different opinion of what you wrote me, so do as you will.

-Conrad

[toddwquigley]

Actually Conrad, you made it a point that you "really wanted to know why I felt the way I do, what I hoped to get out of it", which deserves a complete answer. However, let me sum it up: I hope to get people to think outside the party lines of the extreme left and the extreme right.

We just elected a President that is no better than the last one, we swung the pendelum from the far right, to the far left, and all the people in the middle, (the vast majority of the population) got bypassed. The reason this brand of government got elected is primarily because people voted with their checkbooks, because that's what is most important to them. The really funny thing is that the person they voted is the last person to help them, as he will just perpetuate the exact same agenda as the last 8 years, and the last 8 before that.

Sure, some small things will change, this President will support abortion rights and other things that are dear to the liberal's hearts, but when it comes to the really big things like changing the way government is done, the way our economy is run, nothing at all will change, it will in fact get worse, because the same people that pulled Bush's strings, pull Obama's strings.

What change Obama will bring will be negetive, and we will wind up that much closer to Marx's manifesto, minus the part where the people control the country.

Do I see a light at the end of the tunnel? Well, maybe, but only if the people band together across party lines and meet in the middle for the common good. It's going to take a lot of sacrafice, and what worries me is that the American people are so used to their comforts that they will simply be unwilling to give them up for the greater good, and that we will continue down the path we have been on for the last 45 years, which is a path that leads to an dis-empowered and financially enslaved populace, but this time in the name of "fairness", and "spreading the wealth around", which are just nice euphanisms for socialism.

[d-cat]

We should also look forward to 2010. Most uninformed voters stay home in non-Presidential election years. If we start now, this is an opportunity for third parties to start making headway at the local level.

~ Neshamah

Yes, take our government back from the dog catcher on up! Consider voting for "Ron Paul Republicans" and "Ron Paul Democrats" and 3rd party candidates who respect and obey what has kept us free, the Constitution. Vote out those who voted for the bailout! Here's a list for California:

https://www.campaignforliberty.com/usa/CA/

And question your news source! Do they tell you about the North American Union? The CFR? Did they ignore the third party candidates? Get educated, and educate others! Keep an open mind so you can unlearn the BS they've been filling your brain with!


"None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free." - Goethe


"The individual is handicapped by coming face to face with a conspiracy so monstrous he cannot believe it exists." - J. Edgar Hoover

[d-cat]

Thanks for speaking up, and for your great posts Todd.

the majority of the people born in the last 40 years are some of the most selfish, self centered, illresponsible, lazy, ignorant, and lacking in logic and wisdom, of all the people ever to have walked this Earth.

Just how they want us! Fat and stupid and ready for the slaughter.

[Photoguy]

Todd, OK so the last administration was bad and this will be worse, so you are against the unregulated free markets and you think regulations and controls will also be bad? You are against a graduated tax system as this country has had since Roosevelt(spreading the wealth around). What are you for, what exact steps that could exist in reality do you suggest? It's OK to be a negative bummer sort of guy if you have some actual real ideas and solutions but your posts just read like quotes from Eeyore in Winny the Pooh, Woe is you.

Actually Conrad, you made it a point that you "really wanted to know why I felt the way I do, what I hoped to get out of it", which deserves a complete answer. However, let me sum it up: I hope to get people to think outside the party lines of the extreme left and the extreme right.

We just elected a President that is no better than the last one, we swung the pendelum from the far right, to the far left, and all the people in the middle, (the vast majority of the population) got bypassed. The reason this brand of government got elected is primarily because people voted with their checkbooks, because that's what is most important to them. The really funny thing is that the person they voted is the last person to help them, as he will just perpetuate the exact same agenda as the last 8 years, and the last 8 before that.

Sure, some small things will change, this President will support abortion rights and other things that are dear to the liberal's hearts, but when it comes to the really big things like changing the way government is done, the way our economy is run, nothing at all will change, it will in fact get worse, because the same people that pulled Bush's strings, pull Obama's strings.

What change Obama will bring will be negetive, and we will wind up that much closer to Marx's manifesto, minus the part where the people control the country.

Do I see a light at the end of the tunnel? Well, maybe, but only if the people band together across party lines and meet in the middle for the common good. It's going to take a lot of sacrafice, and what worries me is that the American people are so used to their comforts that they will simply be unwilling to give them up for the greater good, and that we will continue down the path we have been on for the last 45 years, which is a path that leads to an dis-empowered and financially enslaved populace, but this time in the name of "fairness", and "spreading the wealth around", which are just nice euphanisms for socialism.

[theindependenteye]

Dear D-Cat--

>>Just how they want us! Fat and stupid and ready for the slaughter.

Hey, speak for yourself, but please leave me out of the equation. I weigh 167 and haven't put on a pound in years, though it's all redistributing itself a bit. Stupid? I have an ancient Ph.D., so I probably qualify. Ready for slaughter? I've been perfectly aware of that since about the age of six.

Fun artwork, though.

I do have one serious question, and I hope you'll take this as an inquiry without spin. From your other posts, I believe you're a Ron Paul supporter. If I'm correct, and if you share Todd's views about the major parties being puppets on a string, I'm wondering how you actually know that Paul himself and the informational media you rely on for your view of reality aren't equally controlled? That he's not just a shill for the multinationals who'd be very happy to eliminate federal regulation and have the government offer nothing more than a police force to keep order, as they did during the early history of the labor movement?

I don't have the time or the expertise to enter into a Libertarian debate: I've got 30+ puppets to build for a show in January (though I'm not a member of the Trilateral Commission!). But what I'm interested in is this process — which we all necessarily involve ourselves in — of choosing one set of media sources over another, when there's nothing we can actually put our hands on. How does that work for you?

(By the way, I'm interested in Todd's reply to my note, and I'll try to respond in a few days, when I have a minute to think.)

Peace & joy--
Conrad

[d-cat]

Dear D-Cat--

I do have one serious question, and I hope you'll take this as an inquiry without spin. From your other posts, I believe you're a Ron Paul supporter. If I'm correct, and if you share Todd's views about the major parties being puppets on a string, I'm wondering how you actually know that Paul himself and the informational media you rely on for your view of reality aren't equally controlled? That he's not just a shill for the multinationals who'd be very happy to eliminate federal regulation and have the government offer nothing more than a police force to keep order, as they did during the early history of the labor movement?

...But what I'm interested in is this process — which we all necessarily involve ourselves in — of choosing one set of media sources over another, when there's nothing we can actually put our hands on. How does that work for you?

Hi IndyEye,

Your questions deserve really good answers but I only have time at the moment to do this off the cuff (and without including helpful links).

Regarding Ron Paul, I don't think there is a short cut if you wanna be sure that he's genuine - ya gotta take the time to look into him, his voting record, his explanations of his votes and his other writings (https://www.ronpaullibrary.org/). But one can maybe save some time by just checking out his debate performances and other videos of him on YouTube, and seeing how your gut instinct feels about the man and what he says. He was one of the few candidates not connected to the CFR, Trilateral, Bilderberg, Skull & Bones... the New World Order bunch. He votes strictly by the Constitution. And here you have a politician (statesman actually, he's an M.D. who got fed up with what the govt was doing) who is actually taking on the Federal Reserve, putting himself in the company of Harrison, McKinley, Lincoln and JFK, who also challenged the international bankers (and all ended up getting assassinated!). Ron Paul is a courageous man, to say the least. Info on the good doctor is available to anyone who makes the effort to look, and I hope that they would, as he is quite a remarkable person, and not a person to be missed (that's why they banned him from debates!). His campaign continues today as it is a campaign for liberty, not for office.

In regard to media sources, I think it's helpful to look into the subject of media itself, who owns it and what function it performs. After having done so, I now look at the news coming from corporate sources from the perspective of someone who is watching what the mainstream media is telling the public, rather than thinking I'm being informed. Then it's a matter of connecting the dots; the media corporations (there are five) work in unison to manipulate our views, so it can be pretty obvious sometimes. Combine that with the knowledge you can get from various web sources and documents regarding the plans of the ruling elite (North American Union, New World Order, for example), and you can at times make very accurate predictions. Good news sources on the other hand would likely be out of step with their corporate counterparts and would likely be reporting on issues that MSM hides. There are some good docus on the subject of media available for free viewing at Google Video, such as Spin, OutFoxed, Orwell Rolls In His Grave, to name a few. There's also some info posted on the Revolution thread here on WaccoTalk - look for the post with David Dees artwork.

I don't have the time or the expertise to enter into a Libertarian debate: I've got 30+ puppets to build for a show in January (though I'm not a member of the Trilateral Commission!).

Personally, I don't go for the labels anymore. The Dems have been exposed as far as I'm concerned. They vote the same way as the Repubs and let criminals get away with murder. If someone is against the NWO, I'll support them be they Repub, Dem, Indy, Green, Lib, etc. It's not about party lines for me anymore, it's we the people against Them! And divided we fall!


good Trilateral joke btw

[MsTerry]

just remember: Bush=Obama because the office of the President is purely symbolicl

If your statement is true, why do you have a problem with the Obama-nation?

[Franklin Johnson]

Just remember that silence can be loud. Todd doesn't want to answer because he can't; it would be incriminating.

Franklin

Quote:

toddwquigley wrote:
just remember: Bush=Obama because the office of the President is purely symbolicl

If your statement is true, why do you have a problem with the Obama-nation?

[Franklin Johnson]

I love it when people don't have the 'cojones' to say things publicly. They prefer to insult others in private so that the community doesn't see them for what they really are. Just read Todd's reply below:

Franklin


Re: [WaccoBB] Socialism is the answer?
From: Todd W Quigley ([email protected])
Sent: Sat 11/22/08 12:37 AM
To: Franklin Johnson @ WaccoBB

Actually silly one, I read Wacco about once a month, because it's generally filled with the trite ramblings of closed leftist minds, and never got any of this, therefore I did not respond. I only have so much time and patience for deluded people you wish to remain deluded against all common sense.

to tell you the truth, I don't like either President, present one, or future one. They were both puppets for the exact same financial elite, and were elected by selfish, gullible and ignorant sheep. Obama will just bring another 4 years of the exact same thing, because he is owned lock, stock and barrel by big business.

If you believe brand Obama, you are certainly among the above. Don't you realize that you are being played by huge multi-National bankers? No, evidently not, that would be to admit that you are a sucker, which you are.

Wait, what happened, he was going to change things? Funny how he has picked nothing but the exact same type of Washington insiders he said that he wouldn't.

Oh wait, you are probably one of those that actually believes that he has any say in the matter.

Enjoy your delusion, you're cracking me up!

Just remember that silence can be loud. Todd doesn't want to answer because he can't; it would be incriminating.

Franklin

Quote:

toddwquigley wrote:
just remember: Bush=Obama because the office of the President is purely symbolicl

[toddwquigley]

Here ya go Franklin, my pinko friend, here's my post, certainly no fear of you or the public. Now I want to see you come up with a fact filled, logical defense. Open your mind, not your mouth as you seem to be so good at. Good luck...


Actually silly one, I read Wacco about once a month, because it's generally filled with the trite ramblings of closed leftist minds, and never got any of this, therefore I did not respond. I only have so much time and patience for deluded people you wish to remain deluded against all common sense.

To tell you the truth, I don't like either President, present one, or future one. They were both puppets for the exact same financial elite, and were elected by selfish, gullible and ignorant sheep. Obama will just bring another 4 years of the exact same thing, because he is owned lock, stock and barrel by big business.

If you believe brand Obama, you are certainly among the above. Don't you realize that you are being played by huge multi-National bankers? No, evidently not, that would be to admit that you are a sucker, which you are.

Wait, what happened, he was going to change things? Funny how he has picked nothing but the exact same type of Washington insiders he said that he wouldn't.

Oh wait, you are probably one of those that actually believes that he has any say in the matter. Wait 2 years: We'll still be in Iraq, Afghanistan will have escaleted, Iran and Paskistan will be part of the party, your taxes will be significantly higher, you won't have social medicine and the economy will be 70% worse than it is now. Oh, but wait, maybe brand Obama will toss you a nice distracting bone like supporting gay marriage or more support for R vs. W (like who really gives a F?).

You believed Brand Obama because they told you what you wanted to hear, even though there was no evidence to support it.

SUCKER !!!

Tell me, do you really think there is any difference between Bush and Obama except for all the spin? Do you really believe it? Are you really that ignorant about World history, and how the World's economy works to believe that the President is anything but a puppet?

The people with the money make the decisions, they tell the figureheads what to do. Always have, always will, end of story. The golden rule: "He who has the gold makes the rules". Did you miss these most basic of facts in your HS economics class?

Enjoy your delusion, you're cracking me up, no really, I'm full on LOL right now, my cat is looking at me funny. You people are so self absorbed and ignorant it's absolutely F'ing hilarious except for the fact that you vote.

Better stock up on canned goods, gold and ammo, because the people who really run the show want you being a broke, tired, scared little worker bee in debt up to your eyeballs.

[Franklin Johnson]

Todd, my dishonest, Ron Paul supporting, fellow Wacco subscriber,

This is NOT your original email to me and you know it!

The original email you insulted me with privately is posted above, word for word with no edits.

All of you closet fascist/libertarian/republicans are the same bigoted crap.

Franklin

Here ya go Franklin, my pinko friend, here's my post, certainly no fear of you or the public. Now I want to see you come up with a fact filled, logical defense. Open your mind, not your mouth as you seem to be so good at. Good luck...


Actually silly one, I read Wacco about once a month, because it's generally filled with the trite ramblings of closed leftist minds, and never got any of this, therefore I did not respond. I only have so much time and patience for deluded people you wish to remain deluded against all common sense.

To tell you the truth, I don't like either President, present one, or future one. They were both puppets for the exact same financial elite, and were elected by selfish, gullible and ignorant sheep. Obama will just bring another 4 years of the exact same thing, because he is owned lock, stock and barrel by big business.

If you believe brand Obama, you are certainly among the above. Don't you realize that you are being played by huge multi-National bankers? No, evidently not, that would be to admit that you are a sucker, which you are.

Wait, what happened, he was going to change things? Funny how he has picked nothing but the exact same type of Washington insiders he said that he wouldn't.

Oh wait, you are probably one of those that actually believes that he has any say in the matter. Wait 2 years: We'll still be in Iraq, Afghanistan will have escaleted, Iran and Paskistan will be part of the party, your taxes will be significantly higher, you won't have social medicine and the economy will be 70% worse than it is now. Oh, but wait, maybe brand Obama will toss you a nice distracting bone like supporting gay marriage or more support for R vs. W (like who really gives a F?).

You believed Brand Obama because they told you what you wanted to hear, even though there was no evidence to support it.

SUCKER !!!

Tell me, do you really think there is any difference between Bush and Obama except for all the spin? Do you really believe it? Are you really that ignorant about World history, and how the World's economy works to believe that the President is anything but a puppet?

The people with the money make the decisions, they tell the figureheads what to do. Always have, always will, end of story. The golden rule: "He who has the gold makes the rules". Did you miss these most basic of facts in your HS economics class?

Enjoy your delusion, you're cracking me up, no really, I'm full on LOL right now, my cat is looking at me funny. You people are so self absorbed and ignorant it's absolutely F'ing hilarious except for the fact that you vote.

Better stock up on canned goods, gold and ammo, because the people who really run the show want you being a broke, tired, scared little worker bee in debt up to your eyeballs.

[toddwquigley]

Franklin, find my original letter and post it, the effort required is beyond me to make you happy.

Sorry, I'm not a Republican, not a facist, not a Libertarian, not a Democrat, not a Liberal, not any particular party. I just want to see the Constitution obeyed, and the government both as small as possible, and back in the hands of the people instead of special interest groups.

This country was founded on the simple concept that the Federal Government was to be as small as possible, with it's only job being to mint the money, carry the mail, secure the borders and provide for an effective military to effect our security, and world interests.

I kinow this goes against your dearly held communist beliefs, but then I'll bet that you haven't lived in a communist country either.

Yet again, you have nothing to rebut what I say, except to point out that I may have posted a letter that I sent to you and then addended and sent to another person. Regardless, the message is the same, just longer, and that much more applicative.

Please, let's stick to the facts of the subject, not how they are posted. I know this kills your game plan, but why don't you try defending your position with facts and logic, instead of your emotions.

Your are arguing over semantics of posting, but you haven't addressed the issues of the thread. Pretty lame....

[toddwquigley]

So you are arguing over the fact that I added the section below to the post I sent you??? As I said, pretty lame. Let's see you rebut it with facts and logic, not just emotions, because I don't care twopence for your emotions.

A half dozen post later, and all you have addressed is the protocol and semantics of my posting, when are you going to address the actual issues?



Wait 2 years: We'll still be in Iraq, Afghanistan will have escaleted, Iran and Paskistan will be part of the party, your taxes will be significantly higher, you won't have social medicine and the economy will be 70% worse than it is now. Oh, but wait, maybe brand Obama will toss you a nice distracting bone like supporting gay marriage or more support for R vs. W (like who really gives a F?).

You believed Brand Obama because they told you what you wanted to hear, even though there was no evidence to support it.

SUCKER !!!

Tell me, do you really think there is any difference between Bush and Obama except for all the spin? Do you really believe it? Are you really that ignorant about World history, and how the World's economy works to believe that the President is anything but a puppet?

The people with the money make the decisions, they tell the figureheads what to do. Always have, always will, end of story. The golden rule: "He who has the gold makes the rules". Did you miss these most basic of facts in your HS economics class?

Enjoy your delusion, you're cracking me up, no really, I'm full on LOL right now, my cat is looking at me funny. You people are so self absorbed and ignorant it's absolutely F'ing hilarious except for the fact that you vote.

Better stock up on canned goods, gold and ammo, because the people who really run the show want you being a broke, tired, scared little worker bee in debt up to your eyeballs.

[Franklin Johnson]

Todd, you're a liar. Typical of your kind of reactionary that pretends not to 'belong' to any ideological affiliation. But truth be told, everybody has one, yourself included and it's obviously a putrid, reactionary blend.

You know Todd, I don't appreciate being insulted, especially in such a cowardly way: in private so no one else can see you doing it.

Go 'bleep' yourself,

Franklin

Franklin, find my original letter and post it, the effort required is beyond me to make you happy.

Sorry, I'm not a Republican, not a facist, not a Libertarian, not a Democrat, not a Liberal, not any particular party. I just want to see the Constitution obeyed, and the government both as small as possible, and back in the hands of the people instead of special interest groups.

This country was founded on the simple concept that the Federal Government was to be as small as possible, with it's only job being to mint the money, carry the mail, secure the borders and provide for an effective military to effect our security, and world interests.

I kinow this goes against your dearly held communist beliefs, but then I'll bet that you haven't lived in a communist country either.

Yet again, you have nothing to rebut what I say, except to point out that I may have posted a letter that I sent to you and then addended and sent to another person. Regardless, the message is the same, just longer, and that much more applicative.

Please, let's stick to the facts of the subject, not how they are posted. I know this kills your game plan, but why don't you try defending your position with facts and logic, instead of your emotions.

Your are arguing over semantics of posting, but you haven't addressed the issues of the thread. Pretty lame....

[MsTerry]

Franklin
Publishing private emails is considered trolling.

I love it when people don't have the 'cojones' to say things publicly. They prefer to insult others in private so that the community doesn't see them for what they really are. Just read Todd's reply below:

Franklin


Re: [WaccoBB] Socialism is the answer?
From: Todd W Quigley ([email protected])
Sent: Sat 11/22/08 12:37 AM
To: Franklin Johnson @ WaccoBB