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  1. TopTop #1
    mykil's Avatar
    mykil
    A Really Cute Guy

    McCain's got ballz Ill give him that! (Palin Pick)

    I think as of today McCain has really made it a fare fight!

    - John McCain tapped little-known Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin to be his vice presidential running mate on Friday in a startling selection on the eve of the Republican National Convention


    https://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080829...cvn_veepstakes
    Last edited by mykil; 08-29-2008 at 08:37 AM.
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  2. TopTop #2
    mykil's Avatar
    mykil
    A Really Cute Guy

    Re: McCain's got ballz Ill give him that!

    I might even go as far as making a presumptuous statement like “I BET HILLIRY IS REALLY PISSED OFF”. She is thinking in the back of her head, “I COULD HAVE BEEN A REPUBLICAN”! LOL! Sorry just the thoughts coming through on this one a spectacular! You think he did it just to piss off Hillary? You think he is just trying to get laid? You think that at some point really soon history is being made? A Woman VP or an African American Pres. Hmmm Really sets you back knowing that McCain went to all this trouble just to make it all worth watching on the big TV! In retrospect, I am way not even sure if this hurt McCain or killed his election. The good ole boyz in the Bible belt are rolling their eyes I tell you that much!!!! How many woman on wacco just went republican? LMAO!!!
    Last edited by mykil; 08-29-2008 at 02:49 PM.
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  3. TopTop #3
    MsTerry
     

    Re: McCain's got ballz Ill give him that!

    I had to double check you on this!
    WOWOWOWWOWOW
    Maybe he doesn't want to be president?

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by mykil: View Post
    I think as of today McCain has really made it a fare fight!

    - John McCain tapped little-known Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin to be his vice presidential running mate on Friday in a startling selection on the eve of the Republican National Convention


    https://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080829...cvn_veepstakes
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  4. TopTop #4
    Mike Peterson
    Guest

    Re: Mcain's got ballz Ill give him that!

    McCain just gave his campaign for the White House a huge psychological boost. McCain isn't trailing Obama by much and this could give him victory. Many Clinton voters who were disappointed with Obama's victory in the primaries were already going to vote for McCain and this will draw in many more of those thousands or hundreds of thousands of voters to his candidacy in November. Maybe a million or more, which would hand McCain the Oval Office.

    And the nasty attitudes virulently expressed by Obama supporters against Clinton supporters only succeeded in alienating and angering them, forcing the Clintons to make repeated pleas to Hillary's former base to vote for Obama. Meanwhile, those pleas are falling on the deaf ears of many Clinton voters who have been offended and insulted by the Obama electorate. Those are the folks that McCain is harvesting with Sarah Palin as his running mate. If McCain wins, that responsibility will fall squarely on the shoulders of Obama voters.

    At the psychological level, McCain is saying, "Hey gang, here is the Republican Hillary. If you wanted a woman badly enough to be so high in public office then here's your chance. Just vote for me and you'll have the first woman VP in US history."

    McCain just might clinch the presidency with this astute move, which simultaneously takes advantage of the internal rift within the Democratic electorate.

    Mike


    Quote Posted in reply to the post by mykil: View Post
    I think as of today Mcain has really made it a fare fight!

    - John McCain tapped little-known Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin to be his vice presidential running mate on Friday in a startling selection on the eve of the Republican National Convention


    https://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080829...cvn_veepstakes
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  5. TopTop #5
    MsTerry
     

    Re: Mcain's got ballz Ill give him that!

    Good analysis, but will it be enough to fool the people?

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by Mike Peterson: View Post
    McCain just gave his campaign for the White House a huge psychological boost. McCain isn't trailing Obama by much and this could give him victory. Many Clinton voters who were disappointed with Obama's victory in the primaries were already going to vote for McCain and this will draw in many more of those thousands or hundreds of thousands of voters to his candidacy in November. Maybe a million or more, which would hand McCain the Oval Office.

    And the nasty attitudes virulently expressed by Obama supporters against Clinton supporters only succeeded in alienating and angering them, forcing the Clintons to make repeated pleas to Hillary's former base to vote for Obama. Meanwhile, those pleas are falling on the deaf ears of many Clinton voters who have been offended and insulted by the Obama electorate. Those are the folks that McCain is harvesting with Sarah Palin as his running mate. If McCain wins, that responsibility will fall squarely on the shoulders of Obama voters.

    At the psychological level, McCain is saying, "Hey gang, here is the Republican Hillary. If you wanted a woman badly enough to be so high in public office then here's your chance. Just vote for me and you'll have the first woman VP in US history."

    McCain just might clinch the presidency with this astute move, which simultaneously takes advantage of the internal rift within the Democratic electorate.

    Mike
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  6. TopTop #6
    Mike Peterson
    Guest

    Re: Mcain's got ballz Ill give him that!

    That's the real question.

    Yes, picking a woman is absolutely a trick to fool the people into voting for him by appealing to their sense of equality and ego and that the American Dream is for women, etc, etc. But it's still just a trick because McCain is simply using her to gain power.

    Funny thing is that since McCain is so old (he would be 72 if sworn into office in January) he could actually die of old age while serving out his first or second term, something that has happened on more than one occasion with younger presidents, such as William Harrison who died of pneumonia at age 68 and was president for only one month.

    If something like that happens then we will have the first woman president in one fowl swoop, and she's only 44 right now, which would also make her one of the youngest presidents in history, after Theodore Roosevelt (42) and JFK (43).

    I would say that the 'exodus' of former Hillary voters to the McCain camp is composed of different kinds of folks. There are those who never liked Obama based on his individual appeal as a candidate, purely preference. There are those who are pissed off big time and totally offended by Obama voters' aggressive reproaches against Hillary's sticking it out till the bitter end. There are those who are downright racist and simply can't handle seeing a 'n----r' become president (my mother didn't vote for Gore in 2000 because Lieberman is Jewish). And now, there will be those who will switch sides (and also swing voters and undecideds) because they are motivated by a woman VP.

    Oh, I almost forgot, there are those (don't know how many) who will vote for McCain because Sarah Palin is a hottie! It is strongly rumored that many women voted for JFK in 1960 because they found him to be young and attractive. And in a race as close as it was between Kennedy and Nixon, the "sex symbol factor" could very well have made the difference.

    Mike


    Quote Posted in reply to the post by MsTerry: View Post
    Good analysis, but will it be enough to fool the people?
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  7. TopTop #7
    theindependenteye's Avatar
    theindependenteye
     

    Re: McCain's got ballz Ill give him that!

    If having balls is contingent on caving to the far-right Christians, making a bid for disgruntled Clintonians, contradicting your own campaign statements about experience, Alaska drilling, etc., then I guess he's got balls.

    And indeed it's taking a chance on the notion that Clinton supporters are much more interested in whether the candidate has ovaries than what her politics are and how they remotely match women's key issues. I think many will find that pretty sexist.

    And I guess her beauty-queen credit is intended to counter the Paris Hilton factor.

    Not to take away from whatever good things she may have done, but just to say that it seems hardly to qualify as a ballsy choice — more like shooting yourself in the balls, which I guess maybe does qualify as ballsy.

    Cheers—
    Conrad
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  8. TopTop #8
    mykil's Avatar
    mykil
    A Really Cute Guy

    Re: McCain's got ballz Ill give him that!

    McClain’s choice will be seen by all as a ballz ass move this goes without saying, yet it probably was a no brainier choice from his advisers! The Bible belt will still get his vote; I am betting they want a woman VP more than a black pres. This is for sure. Although they might be rolling their eyes they are still going to vote for the McClain. I am truly wondering if Hillary will vote for McClain at this point. No I know better and I hope you do too! I truly think we just lost the election!!!!
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  9. TopTop #9
    RichT
     

    Re: McCain's got ballz Ill give him that!

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by mykil: View Post
    McClain’s choice will be seen by all as a ballz ass move this goes without saying, yet it probably was a no brainier choice from his advisers! The Bible belt will still get his vote; I am betting they want a woman VP more than a black pres. This is for sure. Although they might be rolling their eyes they are still going to vote for the McClain. I am truly wondering if Hillary will vote for McClain at this point. No I know better and I hope you do too! I truly think we just lost the election!!!!

    There may be hope for salvation even still.

    https://www.sfgate.com/comics/fiore/

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  10. TopTop #10
    MsTerry
     

    Re: McCain's got ballz Ill give him that!


    6 things the Palin pick says about McCain


    Jim VandeHei, John F. HarrisSat Aug 30, 9:57 AM ET

    The selection of a running mate is among the most consequential, most defining decisions a presidential nominee can make. John McCain’s pick of Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin says a lot about his decison-making — and some of it is downright breathtaking.

    We knew McCain is a politician who relishes improvisation, and likes to go with his gut. But it is remarkable that someone who has repeatedly emphasized experience in this campaign named an inexperienced governor he barely knew to be his No. 2. Whatever you think of the pick, here are six things it tells us about McCain:

    1. He’s desperate. Let’s stop pretending this race is as close as national polling suggests. The truth is McCain is essentially tied or trailing in every swing state that matters — and too close for comfort in several states like Indiana and Montana the GOP usually wins pretty easily in presidential races. On top of that, voters seem very inclined to elect Democrats in general this election — and very sick of the Bush years.

    McCain could easily lose in an electoral landslide. That is the private view of Democrats and Republicans alike.
    McCain’s pick shows he is not pretending. Politicians, even “mavericks” like McCain, play it safe when they think they are winning — or see an easy path to winning. They roll the dice only when they know that the risks of conventionality are greater than the risks of boldness.

    The Republican brand is a mess. McCain is reasonably concluding that it won’t work to replicate George W. Bush and Karl Rove’s electoral formula, based around national security and a big advantage among Y chromosomes, from 2004.
    “She’s a fresh new face in a party that’s dying for one — the antidote to boring white men,” a campaign official said.
    Palin, the logic goes, will prompt voters to give him a second look — especially women who have watched Democrats reject Hillary Rodham Clinton for Barack Obama.

    The risks of a backlash from choosing someone so unknown and so untested are obvious. In one swift stroke, McCain demolished what had been one of his main arguments against Obama.
    “I think we’re going to have to examine our tag line, ‘dangerously inexperienced,’” a top McCain official said wryly.


    2. He’s willing to gamble — bigtime. Let’s face it: This is not the pick of a self-confident candidate. It is the political equivalent of a trick play or, as some Democrats called it, a Hail Mary pass in football. McCain talks incessantly about experience, and then goes and selects a woman he hardly knows, who hardly knows foreign policy and who can hardly be seen as instantly ready for the presidency.

    He is smart enough to know it could work, at least politically. Many Republicans see this pick as a brilliant stroke because it will be difficult for Democrats to run hard against a woman in the wake of the Hillary Clinton drama. Will this push those disgruntled Hillary voters McCain’s way? Perhaps. But this is hardly aimed at them: It is directed at the huge bloc of independent women — especially those who do not see abortion as a make-or-break issue — who could decide this election.

    McCain has a history of taking dares. Palin represents his biggest one yet.


    3. He’s worried about the political implications of his age. Like a driver overcorrecting out of a swerve, he chooses someone who is two years younger than the youthful Obama, and 28 years younger than he is. (He turned 72 Friday.) The father-daughter comparison was inevitable when they appeared next to each other.

    4. He’s not worried about the actuarial implications of the age issue. He thinks he’s in fine fettle, and Palin wouldn’t be performing the only constitutional duty of a vice president, which is standing by in case a president dies or becomes incapacitated. If he was really concerned about an inexperienced person sitting in the Oval Office we would be writing about vice presidential nominee Mitt Romney or Tom Ridge or Condoleezza Rice.

    There is no plausible way that McCain could say that he picked Palin, who was only elected governor in 2006 and whose most extended public service was as mayor of Wasilla, Alaska (population 8,471), because she was ready to be president on Day One.

    Nor can McCain argue that he was looking for someone he could trust as a close adviser. Most people know the staff at the local Starbucks better than McCain knows Palin. They met for the first time last February at a National Governors Association meeting in Washington. Then, they spoke again — by phone — on Sunday while she was at the Alaska state fair and he was at home in Arizona.

    McCain has made a mockery out of his campaign's longtime contention that Barack Obama is too dangerously inexperienced to be commander in chief. Now, the Democratic ticket boasts 40 years of national experience (four years for Obama and 36 years for Joseph Biden of Delaware), while the Republican ticket has 26 (McCain’s four yeasr in the House and 22 in the Senate.)

    The McCain campaign has made a calculation that most voters don’t really care about the national experience or credentials of a vice president, and that Palin’s ebullient personality and reputation as a refomer who took on cesspool politics in Alaska matters more.


    5. He’s worried about his conservative base. If he had room to maneuver, there were lots of people McCain could have selected who would have represented a break from Washington politics as usual. Sen. Joseph I. Lieberman comes to mind (and it certainly came to McCain’s throughout the process). He had no such room. GOP stalwarts were furious over trial balloons about the possibility of choosing a supporter of abortion rights, including the possibility that he would reach out to his friend.

    Palin is an ardent opponent of abortion who was previously scheduled to keynote the Republican National Coalition for Life's "Life of the Party" event in the Twin Cities this week.

    “She’s really a perfect selection,” said Darla St. Martin, the Co-Director of the National Right to Life Committee. It is no secret McCain wanted to shake things up in this race — and he realized he was limited to a shake-up conservatives could stomach.


    6. At the end of the day, McCain is still McCain. People may find him a refreshing maverick, or an erratic egotist. In either event, he marches to his own beat.

    On the upside, his team did manage to play to the media’s love of drama, fanning speculation about his possible choices and maximizing coverage of the decision.

    On the potential downside, the drama was evidently entirely genuine. The fact that McCain only spoke with Palin about the vice presidency for the first time on Sunday, and that he was seriously considering Lieberman until days ago, suggests just how hectic and improvisational his process was.

    In the end, this selection gives him a chance to reclaim the mantle of a different kind of politician intent on changing Washington. He once had a legitimate claim to this: after all, he took on his own party over campaign finance reform and immigration. He jeopardized this claim in recent months by embracing ideas he once opposed (Bush tax cuts) and ideas that appeared politically motivated (gas tax holiday).

    Spontaneity, with a touch of impulsiveness, is one of the traits that attract some of McCain’s admirers. Whether it’s a good calling card for a potential president will depend on the reaction in coming days to what looks for the moment like the most daring vice presidential selection in generations.
    Mike Allen contributed to this report.
    Last edited by Barry; 08-30-2008 at 05:06 PM.
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  11. TopTop #11
    Braggi's Avatar
    Braggi
     

    Re: McCain's got ballz Ill give him that!

    This choice just proves how much influence Rush Limbaugh has over McCain.

    Rush has been calling for her as VP choice for many weeks.

    Maybe Rush will get his own bedroom in the White House.

    -Jeff
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  12. TopTop #12
    MsTerry
     

    Re: McCain's got ballz Ill give him that!

    He Did? (how do you know? )
    He must be chest pounding now.

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by Braggi: View Post
    This choice just proves how much influence Rush Limbaugh has over McCain.

    Rush has been calling for her as VP choice for many weeks.

    Maybe Rush will get his own bedroom in the White House.

    -Jeff
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  13. TopTop #13
    Barry's Avatar
    Barry
    Founder & Moderator

    Re: McCain's got ballz Ill give him that!

    It's quite shocking! Regardless of all the inexperience & gender issues, to have made such a major decision after only meeting her once is totally frightening! This is the thoughtful and wise leader we want??? Another "Cowboy" who shoots from the hip? I suppose Reagan pulled that off (according to the Republicans) but at least he was a strong leader and communicator (even if in the wrong direction!). McCain is no Reagan!

    Needless to say, I am delighted with his "selection"!

    Obama '08!!
    Barry
    Last edited by Barry; 08-30-2008 at 05:15 PM.

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  14. TopTop #14
    The A Team's Avatar
    The A Team
    Supporting Member

    Re: McCain's got ballz Ill give him that! (Palin Pick)

    Huh?

    Who is Sarah Palin? Here's some basic background:

    She was elected Alaska's governor a little over a year and a half ago. Her previous office was mayor of Wasilla, a small town outside Anchorage. She has no foreign policy experience.1
    Palin is strongly anti-choice, opposing abortion even in the case of rape or incest.2
    She supported right-wing extremist Pat Buchanan for president in 2000. 3
    Palin thinks creationism should be taught in public schools.4
    She's doesn't think humans are the cause of climate change.5
    She's solidly in line with John McCain's "Big Oil first" energy policy. She's pushed hard for more oil drilling and says renewables won't be ready for years. She also sued the Bush administration for listing polar bears as an endangered species—she was worried it would interfere with more oil drilling in Alaska.6
    How closely did John McCain vet this choice? He met Sarah Palin once at a meeting. They spoke a second time, last Sunday, when he called her about being vice-president. Then he offered her the position.7

    Oh yeah...sounds delightful
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  15. TopTop #15
    josan48
    Guest

    Re: McCain's got ballz Ill give him that!

    The statement that McCain WILL win and that we lost the election is absurd and really negative thinking...we must keep oour positive thoughts and KNOW that OBAMA WILL WIN. He must. We need a clean-up time in our country. It is time for us to start thinking differently.
    Josan
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  16. TopTop #16
    Neshamah
    Guest

    Re: McCain's got ballz Ill give him that! (Palin Pick)

    Palin's mere 19 months as governor still gives her more executive experience than McCain, Biden, and Obama combined. She brings a great deal of expertise on energy, and given that McCain's mother is still alive and well at 96, Palin is no more likely than Biden to be President within the next 8 years anyway.

    Diversity is more than just gender or skin color. Instead of picking a like-minded senator, Obama should have picked a moderate governor like Ted Strickland or Kathleen Sebelius. Doing so would have restricted McCain to a narrower field of more experienced and less groundbreaking possibilities. By instead picking the third most partisan Democrat in the Senate, Obama undermined his pledge to move past partisan politics and left McCain's field wide open.

    McCain picked an ordinary woman who took on the Republican establishment in Alaska and won. By picking her, McCain has demonstrated once again that he does not just talk about bipartisanship, he has a record of doing it. I certainly wish he did it more, but at least he has done something.

    All that said, experience, intelligence, and working well with others is really secondary when you consider how far apart the two tickets are on their positions. No Clinton Democrat will be swayed by Sarah Palin. McCain has made some reckless statements on Russia and Iran, and his gas tax holiday nonsense demonstrates his lack of expertise on energy policy. Obama is betting that the country is so fed up with Republican leadership in the last eight years that they will elect a Democrat, no matter how progressive. That is a big risk, at least as big as McCain picking the first-term governor of Alaska as VP.

    ~ Neshamah
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  17. TopTop #17
    Sonomamark
     

    Re: McCain's got ballz Ill give him that! (Palin Pick)

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by Neshamah: View Post
    Palin's mere 19 months as governor still gives her more executive experience than McCain, Biden, and Obama combined.
    Actually, you're wrong about that. Executive experience is being an executive: the decision maker for a large enterprise. A national campaign is such an enterprise. Barack Obama has been the CEO of an enterprise with 500 employees and a budget of more than $100 million for the last year and a half. Before that, he did the same thing in running for Senate.

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by Neshamah: View Post
    She brings a great deal of expertise on energy, and given that McCain's mother is still alive and well at 96, Palin is no more likely than Biden to be President within the next 8 years anyway.
    Not really. Palin's only "expertise on energy" involves kissing the ring of the oil industry, which everyone in Alaskan politics does. There's no policy analysis or thought process involved.

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by Neshamah: View Post
    Diversity is more than just gender or skin color. Instead of picking a like-minded senator, Obama should have picked a moderate governor like Ted Strickland or Kathleen Sebelius. Doing so would have restricted McCain to a narrower field of more experienced and less groundbreaking possibilities. By instead picking the third most partisan Democrat in the Senate, Obama undermined his pledge to move past partisan politics and left McCain's field wide open.
    Nope. Both Strickland and Sibellius would have been loser picks: no national name recognition and in the latter case, the inability to bring a state (Kansas ain't goin' blue this year, you can bank on it). Biden locks in PA, is a terrific pick for winning both Ohio and Florida, helps with older women, white men, Jews and Catholics, and has such deep credentials in both foreign and domestic policy that even the Reps in the Senate have had to acknowledge them. His only challenge now is to win the VP debate on points instead of mopping the floor with Gidget the Governor, because it would look bad for him to be seen as beating up on a "girl". It isn't going to help, either, that she has a voice like furniture nails scraping down a marble column.

    "Moving past partisan politics" doesn't mean acting like an idiot and appointing someone in immediate line for the most powerful position on Earth who is flatly unprepared for the job. Whatever the spinmeisters are saying, no one who knows anything about politics thinks McCain has helped himself here. HE'S the one who has proven his fealty to the hard right partisan base of HIS party by picking a running mate completely unsuited to be President, who is on tape from a couple of months ago saying she doesn't know what the VP does, on tape from 2006 saying she doesn't follow the Iraq War and doesn't know what's going on there, and has expressed her opinion that "under God" should remain in the Pledge of Allegiance "because that's the way the Founding Fathers wanted it".

    The early polls on Palin show that women are more skeptical of the pick than are men. It's a complete disaster of a pick, and it reeks of desperation. And it's highly, highly partisan. It is downright bizarre to suggest that Biden was somehow a more partisan pick than Palin the right-wing Trophy Veep.

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by Neshamah: View Post
    McCain picked an ordinary woman who took on the Republican establishment in Alaska and won. By picking her, McCain has demonstrated once again that he does not just talk about bipartisanship, he has a record of doing it. I certainly wish he did it more, but at least he has done something.
    Palin was elected because she wasn't Frank Murkowski. That's it, and that's all. She is not unanimously supported even within her own party in Alaska, and has been described as "unqualified to be Governor of Alaska" by the leading Republican in the Alaskan State Senate. 18 months ago, she was the Mayor of a town of less than 10,000 people in the least densely populated state in the nation. She knows absolutely nothing about foreign policy, national economic policy, health care, or anything else that is decided at a scale beyond those she has experienced. She's bright, but not bright enough not to be a fundamentalist Christian.

    And McCain didn't want her. He only met her once, and they didn't vet her much at all. He wanted Lieberman (there's your "bipartisan" choice, and wouldn't I have loved to see that). But his people convinced him that they had to reassure the Jesus nuts, and that they could get a slice of Hillary's votes if they went with a woman. Instead, he's got a credibility nightmare, the stink of desperation sweat coming on, his national security supporters are looking at this woman and trying to imagine her in charge of the armed forces of the United States, the woman gambit isn't working, and the party's only getting started.

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by Neshamah: View Post
    All that said, experience, intelligence, and working well with others is really secondary when you consider how far apart the two tickets are on their positions. No Clinton Democrat will be swayed by Sarah Palin. McCain has made some reckless statements on Russia and Iran, and his gas tax holiday nonsense demonstrates his lack of expertise on energy policy. Obama is betting that the country is so fed up with Republican leadership in the last eight years that they will elect a Democrat, no matter how progressive. That is a big risk, at least as big as McCain picking the first-term governor of Alaska as VP.

    ~ Neshamah
    I guess one out of four is...well, somewhat better. Here, you're right. But it gets better: there is a significant amount of grumbling coming from the Christian right about how Sarah Palin belongs in the home taking care of her children instead of being in office. And the idea of a woman being in charge gives a lot of them the willies.


    What this comes down to is proof positive that John McCain is 1) an opportunist who will sacrifice any principle for political advantage; 2) convinced that, barring something dramatic, he's going to lose; and 3) so incompetent a manager and so poor of judgment that he shouldn't even be allowed into the White House on a guided tour. And that, by contrast, Barack Obama is a very strong strategist, has a deep analysis of the decisions he has to make before he makes them, understands the electoral map and the demographics he needs to reach in a way that McCain and his people clearly do not, and is the odds on favorite to win in November.


    Mark
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  18. TopTop #18
    Sonomamark
     

    Re: Mcain's got ballz Ill give him that!

    See my response to nurturetruth, below. This is NOT a help to McCain. In fact, it's probably the deathblow to his campaign, I'm happy to say.

    This race is not close. If you're looking at national tracking polls, you're not seeing the real race, which is state by state, with the goal 270 electoral votes. Obama is well ahead when you look at it that way: check out the best polls analysis on the web, at www.fivethirtyeight.com. When you look at the map and the key demographics in the battleground states, Barack Obama has done himself a world of good with the Biden pick, and McCain, pandering to the Christian right, has shot himself in the foot.

    BTW: the gambit for women isn't working. The early polls on the Palin choice show women are more skeptical of it than are men. And did you really imagine that there is a big pile of Hillary voters out there who will support a woman who is anti-choice and anti-contraception? Why would they ever have supported Hillary?

    Oh, and...what rift within the Democratic Party? Much as the media have tried to create this myth, the numbers don't bear it out: Obama is beating McCain among women by 12 points. People I know who were at the convention describe reporters desperately trying to find disgruntled Hillary supporters so they could do stories on "the rift", but there were only about a dozen such people at the whole convention.

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by Mike Peterson: View Post
    McCain just gave his campaign for the White House a huge psychological boost. McCain isn't trailing Obama by much and this could give him victory. Many Clinton voters who were disappointed with Obama's victory in the primaries were already going to vote for McCain and this will draw in many more of those thousands or hundreds of thousands of voters to his candidacy in November. Maybe a million or more, which would hand McCain the Oval Office.

    And the nasty attitudes virulently expressed by Obama supporters against Clinton supporters only succeeded in alienating and angering them, forcing the Clintons to make repeated pleas to Hillary's former base to vote for Obama. Meanwhile, those pleas are falling on the deaf ears of many Clinton voters who have been offended and insulted by the Obama electorate. Those are the folks that McCain is harvesting with Sarah Palin as his running mate. If McCain wins, that responsibility will fall squarely on the shoulders of Obama voters.

    At the psychological level, McCain is saying, "Hey gang, here is the Republican Hillary. If you wanted a woman badly enough to be so high in public office then here's your chance. Just vote for me and you'll have the first woman VP in US history."

    McCain just might clinch the presidency with this astute move, which simultaneously takes advantage of the internal rift within the Democratic electorate.

    Mike
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  19. TopTop #19
    mykil's Avatar
    mykil
    A Really Cute Guy

    Re: McCain's got ballz Ill give him that! (Palin Pick)

    I really hate to say this but… In the words of The Joker on the first of the BATMAN flicks “WEVE BEEN SET UP HERE BOYZ”. I new this from the get goes and is tired of keeping it in. A black man or a woman in our last hour and extreme time of need. The only thought that I could have in my head was that statement I just made. The day they announced the runners for the Democratic Party I was shaking my head. WHAT THE HELL WERE THEY THINKING???? WE NEED OUR PARTY TO WIN and this is what they are pulling. WE HAVE BEEN SET UP!!!!!!! Really at this point I really don’t even conceder that there was anything else at stake but big money! Sorry for my minuscule definition of our beloved Hillary but I really think she set us up! Her and Bill and they just drug ole OBAMA right on in hook line and sinker. Conspiracy theories once again I know. But it is really the only thing that can possibly make sense!!! NOTHING ELSE FITS!! THEY SET US UP AND WE BIT!!!!! I new this from the start and could not really feel like I had a say in the matter when all of a sudden McClain drops the final nail in the coffin! Anyway has anyone seen my dog?
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  20. TopTop #20
    Braggi's Avatar
    Braggi
     

    Re: McCain's got ballz Ill give him that! (Palin Pick)

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by mykil: View Post
    I really hate to say this but… In the words of The Joker on the first of the BATMAN flicks “WEVE BEEN SET UP HERE BOYZ”. I new this from the get goes and is tired of keeping it in. A black man or a woman in our last hour and extreme time of need. ...
    Mykil, what the Hel are you talking about?

    -Jeff
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  21. TopTop #21
    Sonomamark
     

    Re: McCain's got ballz Ill give him that! (Palin Pick)

    What he appears to be saying, in his studiedly illiterate hipsterese, is what I was saying 18 months ago: given that this election is for all the marbles, and if we lose the Supreme Court flips and the US becomes a banana republic, how on earth is it that the Democratic Party's top candidates are a black man and one of the most hated women in the country?

    Then, it was a fair question. But it isn't, any more. It turns out that Barack Obama is the kind of leader we haven't seen since the assassinations of the 1960s--I have never seen one with this combination of judgment, charisma, vision, depth of analysis, gravitas and ability to inspire people to believe. We're not used to that kind of leader, because we haven't had one in a generation. But now we do, and it trumps some of the usual considerations.

    I have to say that in my opinion, the critique would have been valid if Clinton had secured the nomination. She STILL has 49% negatives. I don't think she could have beaten McCain.


    Quote Posted in reply to the post by Braggi: View Post
    Mykil, what the Hel are you talking about?

    -Jeff
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  22. TopTop #22
    Dixon's Avatar
    Dixon
     

    Re: McCain's got ballz Ill give him that!

    I don't understand all this talk about who will win the "election", as if people believe that something unusual like democracy will happen. Why in the world wouldn't the Repubs steal the "election" again like they did the last two Presidential "elections"? Those thefts benefited them immensely, and none of them had to go to jail or anything, in spite of the blatancy of the crimes. And "our" country has essentially ignored the issue, certainly not resolving the problems to any significant degree. Granted, the Demos took the Repubs by surprise and gained some ground in the last (non-Presidential) "election", but that presumably served as a wake-up call to the Repubs, who will take a Presidential "election" more seriously anyway. (And anyway, the Demos' gaining some ground has not stopped either the carnage or the corruption, of course).

    So, my prediction: The Repubs will again "win" this one through the same blatant and widespread measures as the last two ripoffs.

    Secondary prediction: If the Demos do win, we'll still be at war for as long as it remains more profitable than troublesome for our ruling class, and "our" government will still be fundamentally corrupt, and continue to pursue its blatant agenda of world domination at any cost.

    Anyone wanna help polish up the guillotine blades?

    Cheers!

    Dixon
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  23. TopTop #23
    Sonomamark
     

    Re: McCain's got ballz Ill give him that!

    Dixon, my friend, it's all very hip and cool to be a cynic, but I don't see any indication that you're right about this.

    On your first point, the way the elections were stolen the last (two, in my opinion) times can't really work this time. For one thing, Blackwell is gone in Ohio, and Jeb in Florida. For another, Obama's margins are going to be too large to disappear. They'll do everything they can, but I don't believe it will be enough.

    Most importantly, they can't do it in enough places. In 2004, everyone knew that Ohio was going to be the key. This year, McCain is behind in formerly red states like Virginia, Montana, Colorado, Nevada and Indiana as well as in Ohio and Florida. If he can't hold most of those states, he can't win, and many of those states have Democratic officials overseeing the elections.

    As to the Grand Conspiracy part of your post, I don't buy it. I believe the Democratic ticket genuinely wants to implement the policies they are talking about. Whether or not you believe it, a lot of people who run for office do so to make things better, and they will stand up to powerful interests on things they care enough about. I count several of these officials among my friends, and I'm telling you: it's true. Just because we've had 16 years of corporate-caving Clintons and kleptocratic Visigoths doesn't mean that that's the only way things can be. You think corporate interests liked it when Social Security was created, or the income tax, or the Clean Water Act? No, they didn't, but they were created anyway.

    So enough with the hip cynicism already. It's tired, and it's not what our country needs now.
    Quote Posted in reply to the post by Dixon: View Post
    I don't understand all this talk about who will win the "election", as if people believe that something unusual like democracy will happen. Why in the world wouldn't the Repubs steal the "election" again like they did the last two Presidential "elections"? Those thefts benefited them immensely, and none of them had to go to jail or anything, in spite of the blatancy of the crimes. And "our" country has essentially ignored the issue, certainly not resolving the problems to any significant degree. Granted, the Demos took the Repubs by surprise and gained some ground in the last (non-Presidential) "election", but that presumably served as a wake-up call to the Repubs, who will take a Presidential "election" more seriously anyway. (And anyway, the Demos' gaining some ground has not stopped either the carnage or the corruption, of course).

    So, my prediction: The Repubs will again "win" this one through the same blatant and widespread measures as the last two ripoffs.

    Secondary prediction: If the Demos do win, we'll still be at war for as long as it remains more profitable than troublesome for our ruling class, and "our" government will still be fundamentally corrupt, and continue to pursue its blatant agenda of world domination at any cost.

    Anyone wanna help polish up the guillotine blades?

    Cheers!

    Dixon
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  24. TopTop #24
    mykil's Avatar
    mykil
    A Really Cute Guy

    Re: McCain's got ballz Ill give him that! (Palin Pick)

    Mark; I really wish you are right. I was reading your new post. I wish I was this delusional!!! I really wish the mid-west did not judge a man by the color of there skin [hell even a large majority of the folks around here for that matter]! Or that having a woman president was all that bad! But this is not the rest of the world reality. The fact is that even having a vice pres for woman will get way more of our votes than anyone is really willing to anticipate, in my opinion! Let’s see, you are raised in the mid-west. Predominantly white. You are raised to be a racist, you know like 99 percent of the folks around those areas. Southern boyz, you tell me they aren’t a little radical when it comes to this whole ordeal? Hell half of your 270 electors are card carrying… I won’t go that far but… Keep a stiff upper lip Mark, pray for a miracle, and keep the faith!
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  25. TopTop #25
    Mike Peterson
    Guest

    Re: Mcain's got ballz Ill give him that!

    By golly, Mark, I certainly hope you're right. I would really feel a lot happier if I knew that Obama was going to win for sure (and I would still go to the polls to vote, of course). Maybe it's a strategy to get people's rear-ends in gear and get out the vote in November to avoid a McCain presidency, I don't know. But I certainly hope you're right about the polls and Obama being way ahead.

    Regarding the internal rift within the Democratic Party electorate, it's definitely there and here is a quote from you earlier this year:

    Quote Yes, because he knows he's won, and she's keeping her powder dry for 2012 and doing her best to undermine his chances this year while trying to look like she's not doing so.

    Hillary is NOT going to be the VP nominee. She brings far too many liabilities to Obama's campaign--she has the highest perceived negatives of any major candidate ever to do as well as she has in a primary. 48% of the country says it wouldn't vote for her in any circumstances--that's not fair, but it's a fact. Obama needs someone who will add military and foreign policy experience to the ticket, and/or someone who helps make a key swing state competitive (like, say, Gov. Ted Strickland of Ohio).

    Hillary is staying in because she wants Obama to lose, so she can run in 2012. There is no other reason for her to be in. It's a stubborn, selfish, short-sighted thing to do, and it confirms everything I have previously believed about the Clintons' self-importance and their willingness to throw the values they claim to stand for under the bus to advance their personal ambitions. Remember welfare "reform"? Bill Clinton created more homelessness than any President since Reagan, all so he could steal an issue from the Republicans and make himself look good.

    Hillary Clinton is a smart, capable, ruthless, self-involved woman who is about herself first and anything else second. She will never be President of the United States, and I'm happy for it.


    Mark
    Quote Posted in reply to the post by Sonomamark: View Post
    See my response to nurturetruth, below. This is NOT a help to McCain. In fact, it's probably the deathblow to his campaign, I'm happy to say.

    This race is not close. If you're looking at national tracking polls, you're not seeing the real race, which is state by state, with the goal 270 electoral votes. Obama is well ahead when you look at it that way: check out the best polls analysis on the web, at www.fivethirtyeight.com. When you look at the map and the key demographics in the battleground states, Barack Obama has done himself a world of good with the Biden pick, and McCain, pandering to the Christian right, has shot himself in the foot.

    BTW: the gambit for women isn't working. The early polls on the Palin choice show women are more skeptical of it than are men. And did you really imagine that there is a big pile of Hillary voters out there who will support a woman who is anti-choice and anti-contraception? Why would they ever have supported Hillary?

    Oh, and...what rift within the Democratic Party? Much as the media have tried to create this myth, the numbers don't bear it out: Obama is beating McCain among women by 12 points. People I know who were at the convention describe reporters desperately trying to find disgruntled Hillary supporters so they could do stories on "the rift", but there were only about a dozen such people at the whole convention.
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  26. TopTop #26
    Sonomamark
     

    Re: Mcain's got ballz Ill give him that!

    Mike, thanks for tracking my narrative!

    That quote was from the time before Hillary faced reality (and took control of Mark Penn, who was all for going as nasty as possible). She now has done so, and all but a tiny group of her supporters who would otherwise have supported McCain anyway have gone to Obama. Remember, the Clintons are centrist Dems, they are not progressives, so some of their voters are pretty conservative. Remember welfare "reform"? To gain the upper hand on Gingrich, Bill basically threw the nation's poorest under the bus. Hillary ran more to the left because that's what you do in a Dem primary and especially in a year like this, but on issues like NAFTA and accepting PAC and lobbyist money, she remained firm in allegiance to the Beltway power structure.

    Things are different now. Unless she and her husband go all out to get Obama elected, she'll never have standing to run again herself again. She's not going to torpedo him--it'll be the end of her political career. That was clearly signaled at the convention and the numbers appear to show that it has worked. Nothing ever works 100%, but when polls show that McCain's numbers are HURT with women by picking anti-choice, anti-contraception, anti equal-pay, anti-sex-education Palin (what a surprise), things are playing out nicely.

    Honestly, it's so insulting to women, what they've done. Basically, they're betting that putting someone on the ticket who is hostile to women's issues will be trumped by her having two X chromosomes. It's a reflection of McCain's deep misogyny. He's been using women all his life, and he's doing it again.

    I'm all for getting people activated, and maybe enough people will be worried by the Palin pick to energize Obama's volunteer base even further. But there are so many reasons this election MUST go Obama's way, I can hardly imagine anyone needs a reason at this point.


    Mark

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by Mike Peterson: View Post
    By golly, Mark, I certainly hope you're right. I would really feel a lot happier if I knew that Obama was going to win for sure (and I would still go to the polls to vote, of course). Maybe it's a strategy to get people's rear-ends in gear and get out the vote in November to avoid a McCain presidency, I don't know. But I certainly hope you're right about the polls and Obama being way ahead.

    Regarding the internal rift within the Democratic Party electorate, it's definitely there and here is a quote from you earlier this year:
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  27. TopTop #27
    Sonomamark
     

    Re: McCain's got ballz Ill give him that! (Palin Pick)

    You know, this was my take, 20 months ago. I felt the same. But what I had not factored in was 1) that I'm just really pretty cynical about people in the conservative parts of this country; and 2) that it is possible to be a leader of such charisma, gravitas, vision and organizational skill that such prejudices can be overcome, in a moment when the issues facing the nation are so portentous that people have more important considerations than race.

    Barack Obama wouldn't have beaten Hillary Clinton in IOWA--or be beating McCain in Iowa RIGHT NOW--if your model here wasn't inaccurate.

    Things change. Progress can happen. Things that were unthinkable are now obvious. And Barack Obama is a very rare creature--because of his background, he's doesn't carry the prejudicial burden that most African-Americans do. He doesn't sound like he comes from the inner city. So much about his story triggers internal narratives about the rise of the disadvantaged through hard work, discipline, a solid family and personal merit that it outpoints the skin-color fear for many people. It's not fair, because there are thousands of AAs who are every bit as impressive but would not be considered for the vote of fearful whites. But someone has to open the door, and it's usually someone who is less like what is feared. It's Harvey Milk or Barney Frank, not Sister Boom Boom.

    None of which is to in any way discount his extraordinary capacities. Because in my opinion--and I was very, very skeptical--this guy is the real deal. He's not in this for his ego or to shovel money at his cronies, but rather to try to heal the tremendous damage that has been done to this country, and he has the judgment, the toughness and the kindness of spirit to succeed in doing that.

    So I AM keeping the faith, and will, because, well, what's my choice? If McCain wins, the last vestiges of Constitutional guarantees (other than owning guns) will go into the shredder, and we will become like a banana republic: a surveillance-and-informer-based police state with a small number of fabulously wealthy and everyone else a peasant. The United States of America will be over.

    Thank the stars Stevens and Ginsburg held on through Bush's second term, or we'd be there already.


    Mark

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by mykil: View Post
    Mark; I really wish you are right. I was reading your new post. I wish I was this delusional!!! I really wish the mid-west did not judge a man by the color of there skin [hell even a large majority of the folks around here for that matter]! Or that having a woman president was all that bad! But this is not the rest of the world reality. The fact is that even having a vice pres for woman will get way more of our votes than anyone is really willing to anticipate, in my opinion! Let’s see, you are raised in the mid-west. Predominantly white. You are raised to be a racist, you know like 99 percent of the folks around those areas. Southern boyz, you tell me they aren’t a little radical when it comes to this whole ordeal? Hell half of your 270 electors are card carrying… I won’t go that far but… Keep a stiff upper lip Mark, pray for a miracle, and keep the faith!
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  28. TopTop #28
    Mike Peterson
    Guest

    Re: Mcain's got ballz Ill give him that!

    We're on the same page, Mark. I just don't agree with your estimation of the content of Clinton's character, which is very negative. But that's OK because it's a moot point. What we need to do now is get Obama elected president. That's whats important. As a former Clinton supporter, I'm very happy to do this.

    Just out of curiosity, if Clinton had won the primary against Obama, whom would have you supported?

    Mike


    Quote Posted in reply to the post by Sonomamark: View Post
    Mike, thanks for tracking my narrative!

    That quote was from the time before Hillary faced reality (and took control of Mark Penn, who was all for going as nasty as possible). She now has done so, and all but a tiny group of her supporters who would otherwise have supported McCain anyway have gone to Obama. Remember, the Clintons are centrist Dems, they are not progressives, so some of their voters are pretty conservative. Remember welfare "reform"? To gain the upper hand on Gingrich, Bill basically threw the nation's poorest under the bus. Hillary ran more to the left because that's what you do in a Dem primary and especially in a year like this, but on issues like NAFTA and accepting PAC and lobbyist money, she remained firm in allegiance to the Beltway power structure.

    Things are different now. Unless she and her husband go all out to get Obama elected, she'll never have standing to run again herself again. She's not going to torpedo him--it'll be the end of her political career. That was clearly signaled at the convention and the numbers appear to show that it has worked. Nothing ever works 100%, but when polls show that McCain's numbers are HURT with women by picking anti-choice, anti-contraception, anti equal-pay, anti-sex-education Palin (what a surprise), things are playing out nicely.

    Honestly, it's so insulting to women, what they've done. Basically, they're betting that putting someone on the ticket who is hostile to women's issues will be trumped by her having two X chromosomes. It's a reflection of McCain's deep misogyny. He's been using women all his life, and he's doing it again.

    I'm all for getting people activated, and maybe enough people will be worried by the Palin pick to energize Obama's volunteer base even further. But there are so many reasons this election MUST go Obama's way, I can hardly imagine anyone needs a reason at this point.


    Mark
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  29. TopTop #29
    Barry's Avatar
    Barry
    Founder & Moderator

    Re: McCain's got ballz Ill give him that!

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by Sonomamark: View Post
    ...kleptocratic Visigoths...
    I love it!
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  30. TopTop #30
    Sonomamark
     

    Re: Mcain's got ballz Ill give him that!

    I would have supported her, of course. But I believe she would have lost.

    If you read up on the Clintons, going all the way back to Arkansas, a common thread of what you will find there is simple ruthlessness--a commitment to political success first and policies as they fit. It isn't that they don't believe in the causes they articulate; it's that if necessary, they'll abandon them in order--as they would see it, I suspect--to be in position to fight another day. In other words, they conflate they advancement of themselves with the causes they associate themselves with, and will consistently choose the former over the latter.

    I believe that Hillary Clinton believes she really stands for the things she talks about. But I think she's self-deluded to some degree, because of this upside-down prioritization. I don't have any confidence that she would really stand up to the insurance industry on health care, for instance, because the political cost to her would be too great. She can talk about it during a campaign, but once you've won, in the world of politicians like the Clintons, the top priority is winning the next campaign, and only secondarily doing what you said you would last time.

    Now, that being said, the loathing that the right-wing media has inspired for her since the 1990s is undeserved. She is the victim of a hatchet job which has inflated kernels of disturbing truth into a caricature. It's not fair, but it's also deadly: with negatives steadily around 50%, she can't win a national election. That's the primary reason she couldn't be VP (the other one being the Bill Problem).

    I was thoroughly offended, too, by the anointed quality of the Clinton campaign going into the Iowa caucuses. When she lost Iowa, the tone that came from her campaign read as annoyance at the impertinence of those who had challenged the throne. In her world, they had it sewn up: all the Beltway insiders and PACs had signed on, the state political structures likewise, more or less, and the idea that the little people had a different idea seemed offensive to them. I have to say that that really annoyed me.

    Meanwhile, Obama's campaign was flying in the face of all conventional wisdom. They were campaigning in states which, in the eyes of Those Who Know, you're supposed to abandon to the Republicans. They were raising money from ordinary people using that InterTube thingy. They were refusing to rise to the bait of provocation, maintaining an adult and even-tempered tone, galvanizing young people in droves (people who "don't care and don't vote", if you'd ask Mark Penn), using new technological tools and strategies to stretch their campaign dollars in the early days before their fundraising machine caught fire, and going back to a person-to-person grassroots organizing model that has turned into the single greatest campaign machine this country has ever seen, drawing on the best of old and new technologies to touch voters personally, not just through 30-second spots.

    All of that is close to my heart. I believe in grassroots organizing. Doing, strategizing and managing that kind of person-to-person voter mobilization was my work for 13 years of my life, both at the CA League of Conservation Voters and Sonoma County Conservation Action.

    And the reaction of the political ruling class made it that much sweeter. How DARE this guy be winning when we're not only not supporting him, he won't even take our money?

    So for me, it isn't just Obama, although I am deeply grateful that someone of his capacities came along, because John McCain would have been elected otherwise. It's about the model that Obama insisted on: we're going to compete everywhere, we're going to reengage ordinary people and register a lot of people to vote, we're going to take the high road and avoid drama, and we're going to do it in a way that feels good, that's fun for all involved and inspires, rather than provokes fear or division.

    That's the American politics I've longed for all my life. It is the antithesis of Karl Rove's politics. Hillary's people stuck with conventional wisdom because it was what they knew, and it was safe. It was also stuck in a model that's just awful for our country. Obama's started with a blank sheet of paper, a vision, and a deep structural understanding of how the electoral system works, found people who knew how to adapt today's technology to that system, and using all that, turned the conventional politics of the day on its head.

    Long answer, but: sure, I would have voted for Hillary. And then I would have had a long, miserable night on Nov. 4, watching my country drive into a ditch it would never get out of. Fortunately, now there is hope that that will be averted.


    MG

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by Mike Peterson: View Post
    We're on the same page, Mark. I just don't agree with your estimation of the content of Clinton's character, which is very negative. But that's OK because it's a moot point. What we need to do now is get Obama elected president. That's whats important. As a former Clinton supporter, I'm very happy to do this.

    Just out of curiosity, if Clinton had won the primary against Obama, whom would have you supported?

    Mike
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