2012 or Sooner

[realfire]

2012 or Sooner
THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN IS WITHIN AND AT HAND –Jesus

So we read that 2012 is THE YEAR (in many religions and belief systems this is consistently spoken to). The year when we will cease being what we are. In its place a new, improved version will appear. I ask the question, why not sooner? If there is only NOW why not now, or now, or now? Why not create our own time NOW.
Who are the prophets and miracle workers today? Being, as they were, is surely available to us; it is ours for the choosing. We can heal one another, NOW.
Why not be the ones to bring total transformation NOW. We know enough about how to do it and be it. There is certainly a firm foundation for which to stand upon, and draw from. Courageous have been the witches, saints, rule breakers, powerful beings, liberators, and writers. They have laid it all before us like a feast, why not indulge in ALL that is gifting itself to us, as us?
Freedom has been won and lost. But freedom has been attained; this freedom can be ours now.
We are not even being asked to win and lose battles, other than those of the mind. We are just to be open to what already is and believe that WE, I, ME, YOU, and HIM are already that.
Just a jump to the left, and then a step to the right, put your hands on your hips, and pull your knees in tight ………. Just move toward it through belief in what has come before us and the inevitability of us owning it completely.
Why not NOW?
The fabric is complete and ready to become us; all that it is awaiting is our approval to exist in us, as us.
Will we choose to spend the years before 2012 getting busier, falling more deeply asleep with more learning of lessons?
We will continue to ignore the hypocritical way in which we have chosen to love?
We will be about the earth yet fly to third world countries 2-3 times a year (fuel and our sky)?
We will go to these places and make believe that our revenue gets to those in need?
We will talk of conservation and magnetic issues and continue to use a cell phone, which hurts the trees and or our brain?
Will we seek out the perfect organic food making believe it is the be all and end all to our health and well being?
Will we stay in a paradigm of physical suffering and inadequate healthcare?
OR will we wake up to the infinite possibilities our form can take. A few great people said we are eternal beings. Doctors have spoken of the ageless-ness of the body and mind.
Will we watch movies with violence and blame the government for the consciousness of war?
WE ARE WHAT WE SEARCH FOR AND PROBABLY A WHOLE LOT MORE?
We can take on the responsibility of magic and infinity as being our destiny.
Government cannot give or take away what is innately ours…. Unless we choose to believe such a thing.
WE determine what is our "birthright" as humans, individually and collectively.
Ageless bodies, timeless life, love existing in as all situations, cessation of suffering for the ALL.
Will we continue to complain about our already abundant life?
OR will we liberate each other, together so that ALL are nourished to the point of perfection.
We can live in perfection of who we truly are.
We are modern day saints, witches, leaders, knowers, and believers ……………
Maybe the time for One leader is over and we are the many leaders that are present.
For we are the microcosm of a macrocosm that allows for a myriad of adventures.
Why have we chosen the densest one of all? Science has even now shown us what we look like on an anatomic level when we experience positive emotions vs. negative ones. We know when we are lighter We know when our body communicates this.
What if our next step is to em-body a body that has a fluid movement of energy, so much so that we can never suffer again?
Our minds only reflect the place of peace we are individually at.
Our hearts, all they desire is to expand big enough to hold ALL. In that state of being there is no dis-comfort, dis-ease, dis-content, dis-order, dis-stance, ………..
There is spaciousness, ease, comfort, contentment, order, closeness, and true vulnerability.
If we know this exists, it is incumbent upon us to bring it into our vision and visceral knowing
Who determines when we stop suffering, ancient literature, a calendar written eons ago? Maybe they did not know how advanced, aware, and ready we would be?
HEAVEN NOW could be adopted as our world mantra. Surely our intention for world peace is greater than any event!! We can rewrite history and come right up to the PRESENT, GET CURRENT (get into the current)
Do you believe that we could bring about the cessation of suffering way sooner than 2012?
There is only NOW.
When will we stand up and reclaim our power as divinity itself. No longer the need for middle men (teachings and religions), for we HAVE arrived. We are awake to consciousness, as consciousness. We are the ALL .We need for nothing. We can believe whatever life we want to.
Let ‘s be adults about it and give this wonderful knowing and reality to our children.
Let’s honor all those amazing beings who came before us, by embodying what they shared, NOW.
Just simply ask your heart to direct your life. The heart is the place where truth lives and where infinite possibilities reside. It cannot fail you, it’s the center of love, and You are the center of love
Your prayers may leave you, but in the abstract, you actually asked yourself, for there is no other.
Could we not hold hands in the mind and through our intent and visualization join up all (including those your mind has deemed as not deserving) of our energy and make the wish of all wishes for Peace and Love in all aspects NOW. Choose to let go of sides, right and wrong, better or less than. Accept life as it is, people as they are, seeing what is perfect. In doing so we are allowing the advancement of human beings to a place that is right here, right here.
Oh the beauty that we are, majestic even, stunningly aware and vibrant. Our consciousness is accepting perfection in all for all, through all.
In other spaces of time and place we were tortured for believing. We were hung, beaten, raped, shot and so on. This time and space we will " do it " together so there will be NO OTHER who would harm what is chosen by ALL. We step into a great now and we experience all the power that was generated and all the power that will ever be. This is the promise made being fulfilled.
This is the heaven on earth.
This is, we are, healers collectively ending the illusion of pain.
Let’s opt for the best possible manifestation of human perfection available.

What the human mind has created can be uncreated.
Limitation of life is not what IS.

Let us show reverence by receiving what is being given.
Let us give for love’s sake, NOW

[Valley Oak]

Religious rubbish, of which we don't need anymore of because that is, in part, what got us into so much trouble in the first place.

It's so sad to see grown up people with their heads full of sawdust like Betina here and her pathetic posts.

Edward

2012 or Sooner
THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN IS WITHIN AND AT HAND –Jesus

So we read that 2012 is THE YEAR (in many religions and belief systems this is consistently spoken to). The year when we will cease being what we are. In its place a new, improved version will appear. I ask the question, why not sooner? If there is only NOW why not now, or now, or now? Why not create our own time NOW.

[nurturetruth]

Edward,


are you a "grown up"?

Secondly, what IS a "grown up?"

Do you consider yourself mature in thought, emotion and spirit?

and what is YOUR head full of?
cause curious minds would really like to know .....

It's so sad to see grown up people with their heads full of sawdust like Betina here and her pathetic posts.

Edward

[MsTerry]

Religious rubbish, of which we don't need anymore of because that is, in part, what got us into so much trouble in the first place.

Edward

VO you used to have God as your prologue, how come you changed it to "Banned" ?

[Barry]

His email is bouncing and I want to talk with him before he posts again.

Barry

VO you used to have God as your prologue, how come you changed it to "Banned" ?

[MsTerry]

His email is bouncing and I want to talk with him before he posts again.

Barry

Hmmmmmmmmmm," email is bouncing "
What could that be an euphemism for?

[Peace Seeker]

For one astute and learned tracing of polar-shift prophecies and the extremely different kinds of groups who've embraced them, I recommend Arktos: The Polar Myth in Science, Symbolism, and Nazi Survival , by Jocelyn Godwin (1996). It's eminently readable. Described on line at: https://books.google.com/books?hl=en...bO2WVKVjLyYTPs


As an Evangelical Christian I'd be on very thin ice belittling anyone else for irrationality or millenialism.

I tend to assess peoples' character and judgment based less on what they believe about metaphysics, and based more on what they do with their beliefs, once they have them.

Do someone's metaphysical convictions make them more or less responsive to human suffering and environmental destruction?

Do someone's metaphysical convictions make them more or less peaceable toward others who embrace metaphysical, mythic perspectives different from their own?

Are someone's metaphysical/mythic perspective/convictions a source of inspiration for compassionate, benevolent and responsible action?


So I want to know from people:

"Do you see ways this belief/perspective/teaching/tradition makes you or others better persons? Heals you/them? Consoles you/them in the face of personal grief and global tragedy? Helps you/them reduce violence or prejudice in your/themselves? Leads you/them to more profound insights and breaktrhoughs? Give you/them hope?"

"Do you see ways this belief/perspective/teaching/tradition has opposite influences from the above, on you or others?"

I think if we had a safe, trusting setting to discuss those 2 questions about ourselves, with people whose Faith perspectives were dramatically different from our own, we would all grow in valuable ways.

As far as the actual truth, falsehood, folly or wisdom of the "Mayan Calendar 2012" prophesy, I don't think these epochal shifts actually occur. I think these esoteric teachings and writings are metaphors for individual and communal moral and spiritual maturation and breakthrough which can occur at any moment. For example, Jesus sometimes said the Kingdom of God would come in the future at a specific time, and other times said that it is here right now, and all we need to do is step into it. At yet other times, he said it is "within you."

Those all seem like metaphoric descriptions for making a transformative shift in our moral & spiritual orientation and life path -- not a literal chronologies or literal cosmic maps.



David Hoffman

Edward,


are you a "grown up"?

Secondly, what IS a "grown up?"

Do you consider yourself mature in thought, emotion and spirit?

and what is YOUR head full of?
cause curious minds would really like to know .....

[realfire]

David ,

Wonderfully shared and well written .
The passion that surged though me when writing the article was all about possibility . I believe that it asks us to look at personal responsibility and individual/collective group choice to BE FREE NOW ;as opposed to waiting for a prophecy to be fulfilled , which may in fact be a metaphor anyway

much respect,
Betina

[nurturetruth]

It always is refreshing to exchange views and to read thoughtful posts such as David's...aka "PeaceSeeker " !

I thoroughly enjoyed reading the post and have often experienced similar wonderings, questions and thoughts.

I especially enjoyed this part:

"As far as the actual truth, falsehood, folly or wisdom of the "Mayan Calendar 2012" prophesy, I don't think these epochal shifts actually occur. I think these esoteric teachings and writings are metaphors for individual and communal moral and spiritual maturation and breakthrough which can occur at any moment. For example, Jesus sometimes said the Kingdom of God would come in the future at a specific time, and other times said that it is here right now, and all we need to do is step into it. At yet other times, he said it is "within you."

Those all seem like metaphoric descriptions for making a transformative shift in our moral & spiritual orientation and life path -- not a literal chronologies or literal cosmic maps."

Thank you David

[Lenny]

I really don't like to agree with Valley Oak, but he seems to be right when in his first post on this thread, and many other threads, he wrote, "Religious rubbish, of which we don't need anymore of because that is, in part, what got us into so much trouble in the first place."
Do you realize the book you refer to is pro Nazi, if not very sympathetic to the metaphysical underpinning that link to Nazi stuff? Is there a relationship to that old expression, "by their fruits you shall know them"? I can only surmise that as an Evangelical Christian and that you are linked to Nazis, all E.C. are Nazis! I know Progressives have said that to me for years and I know a few E.C.s but they didn't seem like Nazis to me!
I suppose you can claim you are not a Nazi, and I would have to believe you. But then you also claim you are an E.C. and I have to believe you there. So, does that mean I have to believe all that an individual claims for self? I know you are a Marxist, because you've stated that, and I know that Marx"ism" has a form of Socialism which was known as Nazi"ism", therefore can I conclude that your form of Marxism is some how linked to that same form that Adolph took to in Germany?
After our encounters I suppose you wish to make me into a wallet, as that is what feel right about now. Or is that a wrong assumption? As that is what one of the other Socialist advocated for us muds. I fear that the peace you seek involves ridding the world of prejudice, as you've stated, by getting rid of things, like folks, that are not "pure", as your reference book indicates. As there is a god, I hope (s)he helps you. Oh, wait, that is a "Christian" sentiment, is it not? Oh, see how confused I am! I should put you on the Ignore List, but then that is the type of cowardice I abhor. It's just so confusing to me! Might be a symptom of 2012, eh?

For one astute and learned tracing of polar-shift prophecies and the extremely different kinds of groups who've embraced them, I recommend Arktos: The Polar Myth in Science, Symbolism, and Nazi Survival , by Jocelyn Godwin (1996). It's eminently readable. Described on line at: https://books.google.com/books?hl=en...bO2WVKVjLyYTPs
As an Evangelical Christian I'd be on very thin ice belittling anyone else for irrationality or millenialism.
I tend to assess peoples' character and judgment based less on what they believe about metaphysics, and based more on what they do with their beliefs, once they have them.
Do someone's metaphysical convictions make them more or less responsive to human suffering and environmental destruction?
Do someone's metaphysical convictions make them more or less peaceable toward others who embrace metaphysical, mythic perspectives different from their own?
Are someone's metaphysical/mythic perspective/convictions a source of inspiration for compassionate, benevolent and responsible action?
So I want to know from people:

"Do you see ways this belief/perspective/teaching/tradition makes you or others better persons? Heals you/them? Consoles you/them in the face of personal grief and global tragedy? Helps you/them reduce violence or prejudice in your/themselves? Leads you/them to more profound insights and breaktrhoughs? Give you/them hope?"

"Do you see ways this belief/perspective/teaching/tradition has opposite influences from the above, on you or others?"

I think if we had a safe, trusting setting to discuss those 2 questions about ourselves, with people whose Faith perspectives were dramatically different from our own, we would all grow in valuable ways.
As far as the actual truth, falsehood, folly or wisdom of the "Mayan Calendar 2012" prophesy, I don't think these epochal shifts actually occur. I think these esoteric teachings and writings are metaphors for individual and communal moral and spiritual maturation and breakthrough which can occur at any moment. For example, Jesus sometimes said the Kingdom of God would come in the future at a specific time, and other times said that it is here right now, and all we need to do is step into it. At yet other times, he said it is "within you."
Those all seem like metaphoric descriptions for making a transformative shift in our moral & spiritual orientation and life path -- not a literal chronologies or literal cosmic maps. David Hoffman

[MsTerry]

I don't know if need to laugh or cry at your

I really don't like to agree with Valley Oak, but he seems to be right when in his first post on this thread, and many other threads, he wrote, "Religious rubbish, of which we don't need anymore of because that is, in part, what got us into so much trouble in the first place."
Do you realize the book you refer to is pro Nazi, if not very sympathetic to the metaphysical underpinning that link to Nazi stuff? Is there a relationship to that old expression, "by their fruits you shall know them"? I can only surmise that as an Evangelical Christian and that you are linked to Nazis, all E.C. are Nazis! I know Progressives have said that to me for years and I know a few E.C.s but they didn't seem like Nazis to me!
I suppose you can claim you are not a Nazi, and I would have to believe you. But then you also claim you are an E.C. and I have to believe you there. So, does that mean I have to believe all that an individual claims for self? I know you are a Marxist, because you've stated that, and I know that Marx"ism" has a form of Socialism which was known as Nazi"ism", therefore can I conclude that your form of Marxism is some how linked to that same form that Adolph took to in Germany?
After our encounters I suppose you wish to make me into a wallet, as that is what feel right about now. Or is that a wrong assumption? As that is what one of the other Socialist advocated for us muds. I fear that the peace you seek involves ridding the world of prejudice, as you've stated, by getting rid of things, like folks, that are not "pure", as your reference book indicates. As there is a god, I hope (s)he helps you. Oh, wait, that is a "Christian" sentiment, is it not? Oh, see how confused I am! I should put you on the Ignore List, but then that is the type of cowardice I abhor. It's just so confusing to me! Might be a symptom of 2012, eh?

[Peace Seeker]

[quote=MsTerry;60761]I don't know if need to laugh or cry at your


Well I know:

Here is my response to Lenny's gratuitiously insulting, infantile attack, and to whatever simmers beneath MsTerry's cryptic high-fiving of Lenny's abusive spewing:

Lenny:

The book I mentioned (Arktos) is emphatically anti-Nazi – not in any way pro-Nazi. If you read it, and concluded it was pro-Nazi, I have to conclude that you read it in an extremely distorted way. (I want to make sure anyone else who reads this exchange knows that the “pro-Nazi” charge is 100% inaccurate.)

The idea that you would call me a “Nazi” because I identify as an Evangelical Christian is preposterous and hatefully vicious. Is that also your opinion of Martin Luther King and the thousands of dedicated, southern, African American rank and file church members who risked Klan murder to challenge segregation? Were they Nazis, if they were Evangelical Christians?
I have no idea how or why you dreamed up the other false, hateful things you said about me.

The way you rail at me and attack me based on sweeping, completely false and unfounded, hateful mis-generalizations is grossly insulting. More importantly, it’s harmful to me, to yourself, and harmfully misleading to anyone else reading those attacks. You’re spreading toxin around, as if that were some kind of “impish” intellectual prank, or perhaps driven by some deeply ensnarled personal bitterness. You are making yourself miserable, and spreading conflict in harmful ways. This seems to be driven inner conflicts that you don’t comprehend.

I want you to stop abusing and insulting me. If you don’t, I will break off future contact.

Enough, now. You don’t have any right to slander and abuse me like this.

David Hoffman

[Braggi]

... Here is my response to Lenny's gratuitiously insulting, infantile attack, and to whatever simmers beneath MsTerry's cryptic high-fiving of Lenny's abusive spewing:
...

Gee David, your "peace keeping" response looks a bit overdone itself.

Perhaps you could model the way you'd like to be treated.

If someone is wrong, gently give them the correct information.

-Jeff

[Lenny]

I don't know if need to laugh or cry at your

Ambivalence does that to me as well.

[Lenny]

[quote=Peace Seeker;60770]

I don't know if need to laugh or cry at your

Well I know:
Here is my response to Lenny's gratuitiously insulting, infantile attack, and to whatever simmers beneath MsTerry's cryptic high-fiving of Lenny's abusive spewing:

I find Ms. Terry's response to be neither a high-five nor a negation, but as real as can be at the moment. Not that she needs any clarification from the likes of me, as we all have noted, and is rather capable herself, but she was as turned off of it, as may be expected.

Lenny:
The book I mentioned (Arktos) is emphatically anti-Nazi – not in any way pro-Nazi. If you read it, and concluded it was pro-Nazi, I have to conclude that you read it in an extremely distorted way. (I want to make sure anyone else who reads this exchange knows that the “pro-Nazi” charge is 100% inaccurate.)

The referenced material is very Pro-Aryan and builds on those same elements as was promulgated by those that hold Aryans to be the superior, first, and most important race on earth. I actually don't have a real big problem with that, as a couple of my friends felt similarly and dealt very well with the likes of me, my family, and other friends. But they were clear, from the ground up, about their issues. Most of the others folks I've known don't seem to give a fig one way or t'other. Or if they do, they're very good about it. It does not matter much to me, except when I run into duplicity.
And no, I am not illiterate, nor stupid, and I did not read the referenced material in a distorted way. Words have meaning. So do complete sentences, and the language utilized and formatted into whole thoughts leads one to believe, correctly, what I posted IS true, and your retort is not. Almost the entire book is about the virtues of being Aryan. But, to clarify further, Page 8 of the Preface does speak of "unforgettable cruelties" that occurred to "non-Aryan" races, but then that writer notes that other "world wide group of esoterics who combine an engagement of the spiritual path with an attitude of Nazism ranging from compliance to enthusiasm." I am neither compliant, nor enthused.

https://books.google.com/books?id=26...g7QuSM#PPA8,M1

The idea that you would call me a “Nazi” because I identify as an Evangelical Christian is preposterous and hatefully vicious. Is that also your opinion of Martin Luther King and the thousands of dedicated, southern, African American rank and file church members who risked Klan murder to challenge segregation? Were they Nazis, if they were Evangelical Christians? I have no idea how or why you dreamed up the other false, hateful things you said about me.

Rather than type slower, I will number the ideas on what I found out know about you, since I did not "dream" these things about you. You said you were an E.C. and a Marxist. #1. One form of Marxism is Nazism, or at least that is what I conclude based in part on their name, National Socialism, as opposed to International Socialism. Adolph was a Marxist, IOW. If that is NOT the case, I've yet to see the other side of the argument. #2.You find books that promulgate The Aryran Race superiority notion under the guise of spirituality, two very deadly self-identity toxins, racism and religion. It is not something I dreamed up, these are things you've put out here. #3 Now, as a Progressive Community participant, I've been told for years that Evangelical Christians are "all Nazis" or Nazi-like, and I usually found it to be rhetorical crap spewed by communists since THEY hate all religions AND Nazis, historically speaking.
Now you come along and reinforce that with your book reference and E.C. self-identity.

The way you rail at me and attack me based on sweeping, completely false and unfounded, hateful mis-generalizations is grossly insulting. More importantly, it’s harmful to me, to yourself, and harmfully misleading to anyone else reading those attacks. You’re spreading toxin around, as if that were some kind of “impish” intellectual prank, or perhaps driven by some deeply ensnarled personal bitterness. You are making yourself miserable, and spreading conflict in harmful ways. This seems to be driven inner conflicts that you don’t comprehend.

The way I rail is terrible, but it is not an attack on you. I don't even know you, so how could it possibly be an attack? Above you post, "attack ...based on sweeping, completely false and unfounded...", so please read your first post about this book. Talk about SWEEPING, COMPLETELY FALSE and UNFOUNDED! But then Ed was right, this religious talk is what gets us into trouble.

I want you to stop abusing and insulting me. If you don’t, I will break off future contact.

Your calling yourself an Evangelical Christian is an abuse to them.
Do you want me to believe you are an E.C. just because you said so?
Are you making up your own dictionary? You can call yourself what you want but that does not make it so when communicating with the world outside your head. I've not known any that put out the stuff you do and yet maintain that E.C. name.
As for contact, you do what you do, I do what I do.

Enough, now. You don’t have any right to slander and abuse me like this.David Hoffman

I've not slandered you, and your feelings of abuse are connected with the abuse of the language, thoughts, and notions that you try to feed others. It seems you wish to be some kind of leader, don't deny it, but the things you lead others to me be characterized as hell, in my opinion.
You know, today while doing my chores I actually thought about all this and you. I grew up in an era where words meant something, usually specific things, while the differences maybe argued by reasonable people, but I find you putting things out here that seem to simply be words. You might consider changing your name to Truth Seeker, as what you put out does not bring peace to me, and more importantly, you have no idea of the truths that may be discovered by you.
I knew you would call me disturbed and a monster for "attacking" what you think is "you", and wondered if I did it for the wrong reasons; you know, selfish, I'm an attacker-type-person-with-evil-intentions-and-motives, or just full of rage and hate. Well, I came to the conclusion that I am. And I am not. Each conclusion is worth about one cent each. I once read, and was told, that there was only one Perfect Guy, and we couldn't deal with that, so we killed him. Everybody else can be no better so we all got that coming as well. So, yeah, I got an attitude, but then we ain't perfect either. Live with it.

[MsTerry]

Ambivalence does that to me as well.

Are you most surreptitiously or only cryptically high fiving me?

[Peace Seeker]

[quote=Lenny;60788]


This is a huge diversion from the point of the original discussion thread, which was about the Mayan Calendar 2012 prophesies, and what to make of them and of similar millenial theories.

I brought up Arktos thinking some readers might read it, and see how esoteric, prophetic systems (including polar reversal theories) have played out in the past. Naziism and Italian fascism were two movements which exploited these mythic pseudo-histories. There was an entire sector of the early-20th century European intelligentsia who toyed with these kinds of secretive teachings. And in many cases they also toyed with Mussolini's visions of "European renewal", or parallel movements in other parts of Europe.

I don't see alot of value in belaboring this debate over Arktos. If people want to look at the ways elitist esoteric metaphysics can foster racial supremacism and other objectionable belief systems, I strongly recommend the book.

If you want to read a more detailed response to Lenny's reasoning about the book, read on. However if you are mainly interested in the original focus of this thread, I recommend you re-direct your attention, instead of getting distracted into this sidebar debate.

David Hoffman

============================


About , The Polar Myth in Science, Symbolism, and Nazi Survival:

Lenny insists that Arktos, the Polar Myth in Science, Symbolism, and Nazi Survival , by Jocelyn Godwin (1996), (book described on line at: https://books.google.com/books?hl=en&...bO2WVKVjLyYTPs ), embraces and promotes Aryan supremacism, and even Naziism. He implies that anyone who praises the book is either an Aryan supremacist or an unwitting dupe and enabler of Aryan supremacists:

"The referenced material is very Pro-Aryan and builds on those same elements as was promulgated by those that hold Aryans to be the superior, first, and most important race on earth.

[ ... ]

"Almost the entire book is about the virtues of being Aryan. But, to clarify further, Page 8 of the Preface does speak of "unforgettable cruelties" that occurred to "non-Aryan" races, but then that writer notes that other 'world wide group of esoterics who combine an engagement of the spiritual path with an attitude of Nazism ranging from compliance to enthusiasm.'"

=======================


Just to reassure others about the book Arktos, the above accusations of Aryan supremacism drastocally misconstrue the author's values, purpose and perspective.

The book examines the role which polar shift/reversal theories, hollow earth theories, the "Thule" polar paradise myth, the subterranean "Shambala" civilization myth and other esoteric notions have played for many different philosopical, theosophical and political groups -- including Naziism and several more recent Nazi and Aryanist revival groups, plus a wide variety of other groups -- mostly esoteric "inner teaching" societies in Europe, North America and one group deeply entangled with Pinochet's fascist elite.

The author herself does not support Aryan supremacism. She describes, analyzes, describes and reports it. Nor does she embrace or promote any of the other bodies of esoteric teaching she describes -- such as Blavatsky's claims (theosophy) that the earth was inhabited by a series of ancient, technically advanced races, before homo sapiens populated the planet, and that subterranean passages linked a hidden refuge for some of these ancient beings in Mongolia, to other locations on the planet (India, I think).

Neither the Godwin's actual text, nor any implied subtext, nor any underlying operative assumptions in her analysis embraces or promotes Aryan supremacism. Lenny is completely mistaken on this point. The book is accessibly written, so it's easy enough to check out: A cursory scan will quickly confirm that it's not consciously or unconsciously supportive of Aryan supremacism, any other racialism, or Naziism.

[Lenny]

[quote=Peace Seeker;60807]

This is a huge diversion from the point of the original discussion thread, which was about the Mayan Calendar 2012 prophesies, and what to make of them and of similar millenial theories.
I brought up Arktos thinking some readers might read it, and see how esoteric, prophetic systems (including polar reversal theories) have played out in the past. Naziism and Italian fascism were two movements which exploited these mythic pseudo-histories. There was an entire sector of the early-20th century European intelligentsia who toyed with these kinds of secretive teachings. And in many cases they also toyed with Mussolini's visions of "European renewal", or parallel movements in other parts of Europe.
I don't see alot of value in belaboring this debate over Arktos. If people want to look at the ways elitist esoteric metaphysics can foster racial supremacism and other objectionable belief systems, I strongly recommend the book.
If you want to read a more detailed response to Lenny's reasoning about the book, read on. However if you are mainly interested in the original focus of this thread, I recommend you re-direct your attention, instead of getting distracted into this sidebar debate.
David Hoffman
============================
About , The Polar Myth in Science, Symbolism, and Nazi Survival:
Lenny insists that Arktos, the Polar Myth in Science, Symbolism, and Nazi Survival , by Jocelyn Godwin (1996), (book described on line at: https://books.google.com/books?hl=en&...bO2WVKVjLyYTPs ), embraces and promotes Aryan supremacism, and even Naziism. He implies that anyone who praises the book is either an Aryan supremacist or an unwitting dupe and enabler of Aryan supremacists:

"The referenced material is very Pro-Aryan and builds on those same elements as was promulgated by those that hold Aryans to be the superior, first, and most important race on earth.

[ ... ]

"Almost the entire book is about the virtues of being Aryan. But, to clarify further, Page 8 of the Preface does speak of "unforgettable cruelties" that occurred to "non-Aryan" races, but then that writer notes that other 'world wide group of esoterics who combine an engagement of the spiritual path with an attitude of Nazism ranging from compliance to enthusiasm.'"

=======================
Just to reassure others about the book Arktos, the above accusations of Aryan supremacism drastocally misconstrue the author's values, purpose and perspective.
The book examines the role which polar shift/reversal theories, hollow earth theories, the "Thule" polar paradise myth, the subterranean "Shambala" civilization myth and other esoteric notions have played for many different philosopical, theosophical and political groups -- including Naziism and several more recent Nazi and Aryanist revival groups, plus a wide variety of other groups -- mostly esoteric "inner teaching" societies in Europe, North America and one group deeply entangled with Pinochet's fascist elite.
The author herself does not support Aryan supremacism. She describes, analyzes, describes and reports it. Nor does she embrace or promote any of the other bodies of esoteric teaching she describes -- such as Blavatsky's claims (theosophy) that the earth was inhabited by a series of ancient, technically advanced races, before homo sapiens populated the planet, and that subterranean passages linked a hidden refuge for some of these ancient beings in Mongolia, to other locations on the planet (India, I think).
Neither the Godwin's actual text, nor any implied subtext, nor any underlying operative assumptions in her analysis embraces or promotes Aryan supremacism. Lenny is completely mistaken on this point. The book is accessibly written, so it's easy enough to check out: A cursory scan will quickly confirm that it's not consciously or unconsciously supportive of Aryan supremacism, any other racialism, or Naziism.

Oh.
Sorry.
Never mind.
Is this where "Godwin" law came from? Nah. It was around before 1996, no?

[Lenny]

Are you most surreptitiously or only cryptically high fiving me?

Something you'll have to finger out.

[MsTerry]

whichfingerdoyousuggestIuse?

Something you'll have to finger out.

[ChristineL]

David:

As I feel you were attempting to initiate a sincere dialogue, I’m going to try to respond to your questions. I don’t know if I would be considered to be "metaphysical", but my spiritual system does not fall into the frame work of any formal religion.

I wouldn’t put it in terms of my being a better person because of my beliefs. I do know that my belief in Karma, (that anything I put out there will come back to me in this lifetime or the next) means that at some point I have to take total personal responsibility for my actions without the "stay out of hell free pass if I’m very sorry" allotted in my childhood Catholic teachings, tends to make me think a lot about how I treat others. My belief that all matter is alive and all creatures inter-pendent does make me fight against environmental destruction.

Although there is karmic reasons for each person’s trials and suffering in life, we are here to learn our lessons and evolve. There is, however, no excuse for causing others to suffer or making their suffering worse...again, it’s bad karma. The idea is to assist others whenever possible in getting through and out of their pain.

Believing that I’m here to learn and to pay off my karmic debts also tends to make me less prone to self-pity and "why me?". I tend to think more in terms of; "why not me?" and "what do I need to learn from this?". If I learn from it, I can break negative cycles and move into a better direction.

As far as how I respond to others with different metaphysical beliefs of their own, it’s the same as how I respond to those who follow any "religion": There is no wrong path to "God" if it is walked with sincerity and integrity. My teachers and those who share belief in their teachings have no desire or need to convert others. As a matter of fact, we only teach those who come to us as they are the only ones that are ready to be taught.

I would say my metaphysical/mythic perspective/tradition is definitely an impetus for compassionate/benevolent and responsible action. In order to learn my lessons and evolve to the next spiritual level I must treat people as I would want to be treated, I must be a good Stewart of all of God’s creations, I must learn to give and forget the giving (although the flip side of that one is that karmic lessons are all about balance and I also have to learn not to give more than I can afford to give), and I must always be ready to take responsibility for my own words and actions. I can also choose to not do any of this, but then as Edward Cayce once said: "People who throw bricks through other people’s windows, need to learn to like living in glass houses through which other people will throw bricks."

I was also taught that holding on to anger hurts the angry person more than anyone else and blocks the path to achieving a contented life and spiritual growth. Hate does the same. Taking revenge or getting back at others is no better, karmically speaking, than any other hurt or harm inflicted on another. My teachers used to say: "Forgive and let it go, there is a higher authority in charge that takes care of this much better than you ever could." Forgiveness does not mean having to keep the person I forgive in my life, I can forgive and let them go.

All of this does not mean that I adhere to all of the above perfectly. If I was perfect I’d be dead and with God with no need to reincarnate. I’m still here, therefore I have made, and do make, mistakes and still have a lot to learn.

As far as 2012 goes, I think it may mark the end of the world as we have known it. Pollution, forest destruction, global warming...makes some sense. It’s not even the world as it was when I was born. Thousands of plant and animal species have been wiped out, Millions of forest acres have been destroyed and God only knows how many waterways have been destroyed or polluted beyond use just in the more than half a century I have been alive.

I realize my response is the "Reader’s Digest" version...It’s difficult to summarize thirty years of study and practice in a page or two. I wrote this in the first person as I can only speak for myself. I have come across others professing the same belief system whom I would not consider to be walking their talk, along with many who do.

Lastly, I do believe it is possible to be a truly spiritual, loving and compassionate person while being an atheist or agnostic.

My response to those who feel they have to "save me" by converting me to their religion is that I am truly happy for them that they have found a belief system that works for them, but it is not my path. They should walk theirs and I will walk mine.

For one astute and learned tracing of polar-shift prophecies and the extremely different kinds of groups who've embraced them, I recommend Arktos: The Polar Myth in Science, Symbolism, and Nazi Survival , by Jocelyn Godwin (1996). It's eminently readable. Described on line at:...

[Peace Seeker]

Dear Christine,

I'm really grateful for your responding so sincerely and thoughtfully. I agree with the values and perspectives you lay out. (Largely at least. -- I imagine I could pick through and find points of disagreement). I believe your spiritual path is a blessing to you and to others.

Every spiritual tradition, and every body of spiritual practice I have encountered has its merits and its pitfalls.

Mine certainly does. Evangelical Christianity (and the Bible) can be misapplied and misinterpreted in hideously damaging and prejudicial ways. I believe that in the present times, the World needs people to both:

1) appreciate and acknowledge the validity and positive potential of others' faith traditions and perspectives (including ethical and humanitarian atheism and agnosticism)

2) in a safe and appropriate venue, examine and acknowledge the harmful potential, inherent pitfalls and historical abuses of our own faith traditions.

Thanks for helping me pursue that discussion.

I was concerned when I read your statement:

"My response to those who feel they have to 'save me' by converting me to their religion is that I am truly happy for them that they have found a belief system that works for them, but it is not my path. They should walk theirs and I will walk mine."

I wondered whether you suspected that I might be planning to use this discussion to assert the "superiority" of Christian spirituality? If you did, I can certainly understand why. That's often an unstated agenda of Evangelical Christians, in interfaith discourse. But it's not my agenda.

I do want to persuade people of every faith (starting with my own) to look harder at possible harmful aspects of their chosen faiths. But not so they'll abandon their faiths in favor of mine. What I hope people will do is trouble-shoot their own spiritual practice, making adjustments which reduce or eliminate any potentially harmful aspects of their faith perspective which they discover.

It wouldn't surprise me if people suspect some covert conversion agenda on my part, as a professing Evangelical Christian. So I want to clarify this. Most stereotypes have some basis in reality. The stereotype of Evangelical Christians as seeking to discredit other faiths and to make conversions rather than respecting and honoring non-Christian spirituality is a good example.

David Hoffman

[ChristineL]

I absolutely did not feel any hidden agenda or desire to convert others in your post. I would not have responded if I did.

I fully agree with you that every spiritual tradition and practice has its merits and pitfalls, as well as your statements that each of us needs to trouble shoot our spiritual practice.

Christine

Dear Christine,

I'm really grateful for your responding so sincerely and thoughtfully....