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  1. TopTop #1
    handy's Avatar
    handy
     

    Why The Presidential Candidates Won't Talk About Israel

    https://www.csmonitor.com/2008/0512/p15s01-wmgn.html


    WHY THE PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATES WON'T TALK ABOUT ISRAEL
    Analysts say politicians hold their tongues on giving additional US aid to Israel for fear of being labeled as anti-Semitic.

    By David R. Francis
    from the May 12, 2008 edition
    E-mail Print Letter to the Editor Republish del.icio.us digg
    Israel, celebrating its 60th birthday last week, has proved to be an expensive ally for the United States.

    Since its birth, Israel has received at least $114 billion from the US in direct foreign economic and military aid, says Shirl McArthur, a retired US diplomat who periodically updates his Israel cost estimates for the Washington Report on Middle East Affairs (WREMA), a magazine often critical of US policy toward Israel.

    That estimate, Mr. McArthur notes, is conservative. For instance, he has not factored inflation into that $114 billion cumulative sum. The late Washington economist Thomas Stauffer did that calculation several years ago. He found total official aid to Israel, up to 2002, came to $247 billion. He added other costs of US support of Israel (interest on debt, higher oil prices, etc.) to reach a highly controversial total of $1.6 trillion.

    For comparison, the cost to the US of the Iraq war is running about $144 billion a year.

    In March, a Memorandum of Understanding from the White House to Congress urged an additional $30 billion in military aid to Israel, a sum spread at about $3 billion a year through fiscal year 2018. Currently, Israel ranks as the top recipient of American foreign aid ($2.4 billion in 2007 by an official calculation) if reconstruction money for Iraq is excluded. Next are Egypt ($1.8 billion) and Afghanistan ($1 billion).

    Up to now, the presidential candidates have largely ducked the question of what they would do to further peace between Israelis and the Palestinians.

    "It's quite remarkable it has not been raised," says Stephen Walt, coauthor of "The Israel Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy," a controversial book published last year. "They have gotten a free pass on details for a peace process."

    The Harvard University political science professor further criticizes the press for not questioning the candidates about what they would do to push forward a two-state solution to the decades-old struggle with its sizable cost to American taxpayers. Presumably a lever the US has in the dispute is to withhold the aid it gives to Israel and the far smaller amount ($73.5 million requested for fiscal 2008) given to the Palestinians.

    "The presidential candidates make it a point never to talk about Middle East foreign aid," says McArthur.

    Why the silence?

    "Fear," says Paul Findley, a frequent critic of US foreign policy to Israel. He blames the Israeli lobby for contributing to his defeat in 1982 when running for reelection as a Republican congressional representative from Illinois.

    None of the three remaining presidential candidates have uttered "even a syllable" of complaint about US policy toward Israel, rather a "paean of praise," Mr. Findley says. "This is a phenomenon without precedent in American history."

    To Findley, the "most powerful instrument of intimidation" used by pro-Israel groups is the charge of "anti-Semitism." The meaning of that term has been expanded. It used to be applied to those hostile to a race or faith, that is, against Jews or Judaism. Now it's often applied to critics of Israel or US-Israel policy, says Findley.

    Considering the horrific history of the holocaust, politicians "run like rabbits" to avoid the charge of anti-Semitism, Findley adds.

    Another fear of politicians involves the campaign contributions of pro-Israel political action committees (PACs). Last week WREMA reported that more than 20 of these PACs have contributed $1.1 million to Washington politicians in the 2007-08 election cycle. That amount is dwarfed by what the three presidential candidates have raised for their campaigns.

    Since Israel now has a relatively prosperous per capita national income comparable to Cyprus or Slovenia, direct US economic aid to Israel has been replaced gradually by military aid. Since money is fungible, that would make little real economic difference to Israel as its government pays its high military bills. In fact, Congress allows Israel to use 26 percent of the aid it receives to buy arms outside the US, thereby helping build up its own weapons industry. "We are thus shooting ourselves [the US weapons industry] in the foot," charges Janet McMahon, managing editor of WREMA.

    Professor Walt maintains he's pro-Israel. The US refusal to put pressure on Israel to settle with the Palestinians on a two-state solution, he argues, is not helpful.

    "Giving any country unconditional backing encourages irresponsible behavior," he says. It could lead to an apartheid state, or as Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert put it, Israel facing "a South African-style struggle."
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  2. TopTop #2
    Lenny
    Guest

    Re: Why The Presidential Candidates Won't Talk About Israel

    Far more difficult for me to understand. If we give don't give aid, we are anti-Semetic. I suppose that the creation of Israel could be viewed as the same. Now there is one place on earth where we can dump the Jews, eh?
    And then let all the Arabs in the world kill them? Get them all out of Europe. Yeah know, being a minority in THIS country is tough enough when one has to think about it. But being a Jew anywhere in the world can't be that easy! What a situation.
    This weekend's PD had a fair article, or book review, about Harry Truman and creation of Israel and who was pro and agin' and why. Is it ALL propaganda, or am I just paranoid? I'll vote for the later. But for what it's worth....
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  3. TopTop #3
    MsTerry
     

    Re: Why The Presidential Candidates Won't Talk About Israel

    MARIN COUNTY'S NEWS MONTHLY - FREE PRESS
    (415)868-1600 - (415)868-0502(fax) - P.O. Box 31, Bolinas, CA, 94924
    May, 2008





    Presidential Candidates Sell Out
    Palestinians Will Fare Poorly, Whoever Wins
    By Karen Nakamura

    The American Presidential election will make little difference to the Palestinians. They'll continue suffering without relief for the next eight years no matter who's elected. Will they be able to survive that long?
    Every Presidential candidate, including Barak Obama, has made it clear they are unconditionally selling out to the rightwing of Israel. That they are ignoring the middle and left wing is never mentioned despite polls showing 64% of Israelis want their government to talk with Hamas.

    Hillary Clinton even went so far as to say that not only will she defend Israel from the Iranians; she will defend any other Middle East country against Iranian aggression. Is that even if they don't want it like in Lebanon? Or in Saudi Arabia where they kicked US forces out just before the invasion of Iraq? And is that even if Israel attacks first or continuously violates the Geneva Convention?

    McCain is still singing Bomb-Bomb Iran and being okay with staying in Iraq for a 100 hundred years, "like in Korea and Japan and Germany." What those countries want is of also of little concern to him. On April 14 McCain made a statement on former President Carter's plans to meet with Hamas: "It is a grave and dangerous mistake for an American leader to meet with a terrorist organization like Hamas …that deliberately targets innocent Israeli civilians, Hamas is dedicated to the destruction of Israel. President Carter is wrong to meet with Hamas, a terrorist group that has also killed innocent Americans." He forgets, probably doesn't even know about, the American Rachel Corrie who was killed by Israeli Defense Forces.

    While McCain tries to paint Obama as unpatriotic, Obama calls for change don't include Palestinian rights or even recognizing that Hamas was fairly elected. His sell-out to the right-wing Israeli government is frightening. After the Rev. Wright scandal, Obama made it a point to meet with conservative Jewish leaders and ignore (insult) Muslim-Americans. He had every chance to meet with together with representatives of all religious organizations to show unity. Instead his campaign website states: "He strongly supports the US-Israel relationship, believes that our first and incontrovertible commitment is …to the security of Israel." Not only did he support Israel in its invasion of Lebanon in 2006, he strongly supports military and economic aid and advocates increasing that aid. Logically then, he supports paying Israel to kill Palestinian children. No? Look again.

    Not one of the three will acknowledge Israel is legally wrong because it is occupying Palestine and that the Palestinians have the right to defend themselves.

    Let's look at Israel's actions in Palestine during only the month of March 2008. These figures come from the Palestinian Monitoring Group. When you read these numbers, remember that Gaza is only 10 miles by 30 miles approximately and the West Bank approximately 35 miles by 100 miles. Every other month has similar numbers.

    Assassinations: An Israeli special-forces unit assassinated 4 civilians in Bethlehem. In a failed assassination attempt, an Israeli special-forces unit opened fire on 2 civilians in Qabatia, south of Jenin.

    Deaths: The Israeli army killed 119 Palestinian civilians in March, including 4 in the West Bank and 115 in the Gaza Strip. Of these, 15 were children, including 1 toddler; and 1 university student killed by settlers.

    Injuries: The total injuries reported 443 (172 in the West Bank and 271 in the Gaza.). Most injuries were in Northern Gaza (207. Of those injured, 66 were children, 1 blind civilian run over by an Israeli jeep; 7 journalists; 4 international peace activists and supporters, including Israelis and 8 civilians attacked by settlers.

    Arrests: The Israeli army arrested 557 Palestinian civilians in March, including 498 in the West Bank and 59 in the Gaza Strip, among them, 64 children and an attorney from the Office of the President.

    Closure: Especially on Fridays, the Israeli army continued to intensify restrictions at checkpoints at the entrances to Jerusalem and prevented civilians from access to the al-Aqsa Mosque. The Israeli army continued to isolate the northern districts of the West Bank, impeding civilian movement between districts. The army also set 529 flying checkpoints in and around residential locales throughout the West Bank.

    Here some other facts for our candidates to consider. After Hamas won the January 2006 elections, it was willing to declare a ceasefire and allow President Abbas to negotiate with Israel on behalf of all Palestinians. The blockade of Gaza has strengthened Hamas in Gaza. Efraim Halevy, former head of Israel's Mossad, has called for Israel to negotiate with Hamas. Before the Annapolis conference, a bipartisan group of U.S. foreign-policy experts, including former national security advisers Zbigniew Brzezinski and Brent Scowcroft, sent a letter to President Bush saying that "genuine dialogue" with Hamas is "far preferable to its isolation."

    Ha'aretz also reported that on April 16, conservative Likud leader, Benjamin Netanyahu declared that the September 11, 2001 terror attacks had been beneficial for Israel. "We are benefiting from one thing, and that is the attack on the Twin Towers and Pentagon, and the American struggle in Iraq," He reportedly added these events "swung American public opinion in our favor."

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  4. TopTop #4
    79paul's Avatar
    79paul
     

    Re: Why The Presidential Candidates Won't Talk About Israel

    You have to admire Jimmy Carter for all the flak he's taken from the Israel lobby over his recent book "Palestine: Peace not Apartheid". Pick up the video "The Man from Plains" at Box Office Video. It's made by Jonothan Demme, very moving and brave portrayal of our greatest ex-president touching the third rail of American politics, criticizing Israel.
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  5. TopTop #5
    Lenny
    Guest

    Re: Why The Presidential Candidates Won't Talk About Israel

    Since the issue brings out extremes, if pulling US total support out of Israel would give a green light for their genocide by their "cousins", would that be OK? And if not, then where is the line drawn? We've all known people who've been there and reported back that it is a few well organized folks that keep the agitation going. The majority of all sides simply wish to live, side by side, have kids, work, and live life, and do those minor things.
    Now what?
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  6. TopTop #6
    MsTerry
     

    Re: Why The Presidential Candidates Won't Talk About Israel

    But Lenny don't you realize that by supporting Israel we are supporting Genocide?
    They are living in the biggest prison( or concentrationcamp) in the world.
    You don't get peace by supporting war and suppression of dignity.
    According to Israeli propaganda there are three groups of Palestinians; women and children, militants and terrorists.
    How can that be possible?




    Quote Posted in reply to the post by Lenny: View Post
    Since the issue brings out extremes, if pulling US total support out of Israel would give a green light for their genocide by their "cousins", would that be OK? And if not, then where is the line drawn? We've all known people who've been there and reported back that it is a few well organized folks that keep the agitation going. The majority of all sides simply wish to live, side by side, have kids, work, and live life, and do those minor things.
    Now what?
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  7. TopTop #7
    Braggi's Avatar
    Braggi
     

    Re: Why The Presidential Candidates Won't Talk About Israel

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by MsTerry: View Post
    But Lenny don't you realize that by supporting Israel we are supporting Genocide?
    They are living in the biggest prison( or concentrationcamp) in the world.
    You don't get peace by supporting war and suppression of dignity.
    ...
    We could keep up the "aid" but add some strings (fer cryin' out loud) demanding better treatment of the Palestinians.

    I'm not a big fan of the policies of the Israeli government and military, but I agree a vast number of the Israeli people just want to live peaceably with the Palestinians. This could be supported by US policy, but it's not. I have trouble understanding why.

    I also wish the Palestinians would quit empowering the most violent among them. How about stopping the rockets? (Duh.)

    -Jeff
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  8. TopTop #8
    MsTerry
     

    Re: Why The Presidential Candidates Won't Talk About Israel

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by Braggi: View Post

    I also wish the Palestinians would quit empowering the most violent among them. How about stopping the rockets? (Duh.)

    -Jeff
    Actually it is the Israeli who are empowering these sentiments.
    When people have nothing to lose and nothing to live for they will do desperate things.
    As long as Israel deprives and imprisons a whole nation, the ones that stand up against this violence will be considered heroes.
    It is David against Goliath.
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  9. TopTop #9
    Lenny
    Guest

    Re: Why The Presidential Candidates Won't Talk About Israel

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by MsTerry: View Post
    But Lenny don't you realize that by supporting Israel we are supporting Genocide?
    They are living in the biggest prison( or concentrationcamp) in the world.
    You don't get peace by supporting war and suppression of dignity.
    According to Israeli propaganda there are three groups of Palestinians; women and children, militants and terrorists.
    How can that be possible?
    Never thought about the genocide issue that way. But, hey, wait, it's not REALLY so, just enough to make them want to kill themselves. AND they do, but take the innocent with them as well. A loss for both everybodies. Sad and insane. I hope you read this mornings PD (rarely worth it) but the editorial had a Palestinian view of Israel's "birthday". Good read. Very unlike the screed by Ms. Nakaumura.
    I think acknowledging the definition and difference between a Zionist, a Jewish person living there, and an Israeli, possibly some headway may be made in understanding. In 1940 something, a bunch of violent Europeans came there and displaced a bunch of the indigenous, along racial/ethnic lines. Beyond that, for me, it gets complicated. Those violent folks, around May 15, 1948 declared the new state of Israel. Trouble for a while now. So the "war" thing has been going on since that time. As I understand what I post, how can US support Israel? I truly don't understand. Was it just to help those Holocaust survivors? Or was it to help those European anti-Semites? Both? So buried in my own crap I can't see the clear or plain truth of the issue. Any insight?
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  10. TopTop #10
    thewholetruth
    Guest

    Re: Why The Presidential Candidates Won't Talk About Israel

    I have no sympathy for the Palestinians, any more than I have sympathy for the Ku Klux Klan. The goal of the Palestinians is to ELIMINATE Israel and they've been actively trying to do that for as long as we have recorded history. I pray that the Israelis decimate the entire area around Israel to create a zone in which they have warning before the bombs start dropping on their homes again. The Palestinians can move to any Arab country they want to, but they don't want that. They want to eliminate Israel and kill EVERY Jew, and that won't happen while both America and Israel are strong and free.

    I can't believe anyone would post pity or even concern about people who have been actively trying to exterminate the Jews for hundreds if not thousands of years. Oh yeah, the poor Palestinians.

    I thank God the election won't mean that we'll start helping the Palestinians kill all the Jews. And the biased figures you posted are PROPAGANDA from a Palestinian source. Surprise.


    Quote Posted in reply to the post by MsTerry: View Post
    MARIN COUNTY'S NEWS MONTHLY - FREE PRESS

    (415)868-1600 - (415)868-0502(fax) - P.O. Box 31, Bolinas, CA, 94924

    May, 2008











    Presidential Candidates Sell Out
    Palestinians Will Fare Poorly, Whoever Wins
    By Karen Nakamura
    The American Presidential election will make little difference to the Palestinians. They'll continue suffering without relief for the next eight years no matter who's elected. Will they be able to survive that long?
    Every Presidential candidate, including Barak Obama, has made it clear they are unconditionally selling out to the rightwing of Israel. That they are ignoring the middle and left wing is never mentioned despite polls showing 64% of Israelis want their government to talk with Hamas.

    Hillary Clinton even went so far as to say that not only will she defend Israel from the Iranians; she will defend any other Middle East country against Iranian aggression. Is that even if they don't want it like in Lebanon? Or in Saudi Arabia where they kicked US forces out just before the invasion of Iraq? And is that even if Israel attacks first or continuously violates the Geneva Convention?

    McCain is still singing Bomb-Bomb Iran and being okay with staying in Iraq for a 100 hundred years, "like in Korea and Japan and Germany." What those countries want is of also of little concern to him. On April 14 McCain made a statement on former President Carter's plans to meet with Hamas: "It is a grave and dangerous mistake for an American leader to meet with a terrorist organization like Hamas …that deliberately targets innocent Israeli civilians, Hamas is dedicated to the destruction of Israel. President Carter is wrong to meet with Hamas, a terrorist group that has also killed innocent Americans." He forgets, probably doesn't even know about, the American Rachel Corrie who was killed by Israeli Defense Forces.

    While McCain tries to paint Obama as unpatriotic, Obama calls for change don't include Palestinian rights or even recognizing that Hamas was fairly elected. His sell-out to the right-wing Israeli government is frightening. After the Rev. Wright scandal, Obama made it a point to meet with conservative Jewish leaders and ignore (insult) Muslim-Americans. He had every chance to meet with together with representatives of all religious organizations to show unity. Instead his campaign website states: "He strongly supports the US-Israel relationship, believes that our first and incontrovertible commitment is …to the security of Israel." Not only did he support Israel in its invasion of Lebanon in 2006, he strongly supports military and economic aid and advocates increasing that aid. Logically then, he supports paying Israel to kill Palestinian children. No? Look again.

    Not one of the three will acknowledge Israel is legally wrong because it is occupying Palestine and that the Palestinians have the right to defend themselves.

    Let's look at Israel's actions in Palestine during only the month of March 2008. These figures come from the Palestinian Monitoring Group. When you read these numbers, remember that Gaza is only 10 miles by 30 miles approximately and the West Bank approximately 35 miles by 100 miles. Every other month has similar numbers.

    Assassinations: An Israeli special-forces unit assassinated 4 civilians in Bethlehem. In a failed assassination attempt, an Israeli special-forces unit opened fire on 2 civilians in Qabatia, south of Jenin.

    Deaths: The Israeli army killed 119 Palestinian civilians in March, including 4 in the West Bank and 115 in the Gaza Strip. Of these, 15 were children, including 1 toddler; and 1 university student killed by settlers.

    Injuries: The total injuries reported 443 (172 in the West Bank and 271 in the Gaza.). Most injuries were in Northern Gaza (207. Of those injured, 66 were children, 1 blind civilian run over by an Israeli jeep; 7 journalists; 4 international peace activists and supporters, including Israelis and 8 civilians attacked by settlers.

    Arrests: The Israeli army arrested 557 Palestinian civilians in March, including 498 in the West Bank and 59 in the Gaza Strip, among them, 64 children and an attorney from the Office of the President.

    Closure: Especially on Fridays, the Israeli army continued to intensify restrictions at checkpoints at the entrances to Jerusalem and prevented civilians from access to the al-Aqsa Mosque. The Israeli army continued to isolate the northern districts of the West Bank, impeding civilian movement between districts. The army also set 529 flying checkpoints in and around residential locales throughout the West Bank.

    Here some other facts for our candidates to consider. After Hamas won the January 2006 elections, it was willing to declare a ceasefire and allow President Abbas to negotiate with Israel on behalf of all Palestinians. The blockade of Gaza has strengthened Hamas in Gaza. Efraim Halevy, former head of Israel's Mossad, has called for Israel to negotiate with Hamas. Before the Annapolis conference, a bipartisan group of U.S. foreign-policy experts, including former national security advisers Zbigniew Brzezinski and Brent Scowcroft, sent a letter to President Bush saying that "genuine dialogue" with Hamas is "far preferable to its isolation."

    Ha'aretz also reported that on April 16, conservative Likud leader, Benjamin Netanyahu declared that the September 11, 2001 terror attacks had been beneficial for Israel. "We are benefiting from one thing, and that is the attack on the Twin Towers and Pentagon, and the American struggle in Iraq," He reportedly added these events "swung American public opinion in our favor."

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  11. TopTop #11
    thewholetruth
    Guest

    Re: Why The Presidential Candidates Won't Talk About Israel

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by MsTerry: View Post
    It is David against Goliath.
    That's right, and "David" is Israel and "Goliath" is Syria, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Egypt and Libya, who all want to exterminate every Jew on Earth and who surround Israel completely.
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  12. TopTop #12
    MsTerry
     

    Re: Why The Presidential Candidates Won't Talk About Israel

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by donc1955: View Post
    I have no sympathy for the Palestinians, any more than I have sympathy for the Ku Klux Klan. The goal of the Palestinians is to ELIMINATE Israel and they've been actively trying to do that for as long as we have recorded history. I pray that the Israelis decimate the entire area around Israel to create a zone in which they have warning before the bombs start dropping on their homes again. The Palestinians can move to any Arab country they want to, but they don't want that. They want to eliminate Israel and kill EVERY Jew, and that won't happen while both America and Israel are strong and free.

    I can't believe anyone would post pity or even concern about people who have been actively trying to exterminate the Jews for hundreds if not thousands of years. Oh yeah, the poor Palestinians.

    I thank God the election won't mean that we'll start helping the Palestinians kill all the Jews. And the biased figures you posted are PROPAGANDA from a Palestinian source. Surprise.
    What a surprise Don, did you forget that I am on your ignore list?
    What isn't a surprise is how ignorant and uneducated you are about the Middle East. The Israeli propaganda machine is working for you.
    Luckily we have brave and honorable people like Jimmy Carter who have exposed the fallacies of this kind of thinking.
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  13. TopTop #13
    thewholetruth
    Guest

    Re: Why The Presidential Candidates Won't Talk About Israel

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by MsTerry: View Post
    What a surprise Don, did you forget that I am on your ignore list?
    What isn't a surprise is how ignorant and uneducated you are about the Middle East. The Israeli propaganda machine is working for you.
    Luckily we have brave and honorable people like Jimmy Carter who have exposed the fallacies of this kind of thinking.
    Jimmy Carter is not a credible source. Sorry, but he's already proven he's a nut bag. He's considered the worst President EVER in the history of our nation. You like him. No surprise here.
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  14. TopTop #14
    MsTerry
     

    Re: Why The Presidential Candidates Won't Talk About Israel

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by donc1955: View Post
    Jimmy Carter is not a credible source. Sorry, but he's already proven he's a nut bag. He's considered the worst President EVER in the history of our nation.
    I wonder why you take positions that aren't sustainable?
    Have you even accomplished 1% of what JC has?
    The worst president? Did you want to modify your own statement?
    Quote That you or any other private citizen thinks you know better than the President of the United States about world affairs and/or America's safety is comical, sir. You aren't privvy to the information the President has, not by a long shot.
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  15. TopTop #15
    Lenny
    Guest

    Re: Why The Presidential Candidates Won't Talk About Israel

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by donc1955: View Post
    I have no sympathy for the Palestinians, any more than I have sympathy for the Ku Klux Klan. The goal of the Palestinians is to ELIMINATE Israel and they've been actively trying to do that for as long as we have recorded history. I pray that the Israelis decimate the entire area around Israel to create a zone in which they have warning before the bombs start dropping on their homes again. The Palestinians can move to any Arab country they want to, but they don't want that. They want to eliminate Israel and kill EVERY Jew, and that won't happen while both America and Israel are strong and free.
    I can't believe anyone would post pity or even concern about people who have been actively trying to exterminate the Jews for hundreds if not thousands of years. Oh yeah, the poor Palestinians.
    I thank God the election won't mean that we'll start helping the Palestinians kill all the Jews. And the biased figures you posted are PROPAGANDA from a Palestinian source. Surprise.
    Wow! Try some clear, non-emotional reading here:
    https://www.state.gov/s/p/of/proc/tr/10414.htm

    Especially, "Those who favor the Palestinian cause might think that the growth of such a political trend in the U.S. would be good if it resulted in less U.S. support for Israel. But they would be mistaken. For while those who favor the Palestinian cause blame American support to Israel as being responsible for that country’s continued occupation of Arab territories, it does not follow that reduced, or even no, American support to Israel would render Israel unable to continue the occupation. Indeed, an Israel no longer supported by the U.S. would have no need to defer to it, but would have every incentive to "solve" its Palestinian problem by force as quickly as possible.
    Nor would an Israel no longer supported (or supported as strongly) by the United States necessarily lack for foreign allies. There are other, powerful, countries engaged in protracted conflict with Muslims which might be willing and able to support Israel. Nor would these states necessarily have the incentive America does to restrain Israeli actions vis-a-vis the Palestinians for fear of how they might affect the Arab world".


    So, according to the above State Department fellow, US pulling our support from Israel would be in your liking, as they would then kill all the Palestinians even faster! And Europe would help them if US pulled out, since THEY don't want the Jews back in Europe, as history has shown.


    Don, I don't ask you have sympathy for Palestinians, but understanding of the events. That is, all is well, then foreign invaders come, kill and take all your land, and tell you to go live in Canada and Mexico, but GET OUT of here NOW or die or get locked up. AND the Canadians don't want all our people, and Mexico really doesn't. That IS what happened to them in 1947/48. It is still going on now.

    As for wanting to kill Jews for thousands of years, that is dead wrong, historically speaking. I don't now about the figures being from a propaganda source, but certainly Ms. Nakamura's opinion was.
    In my opinion, the REAL kicker is that their religion, their world view based on their religion, their nature of "God", mandates war. I fear that our genetics "want" war, but over and above that, their whole system finds war to be the best alternative. That's an UGLY
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  16. TopTop #16
    Hot Compost
     

    Re: Why The Presidential Candidates Won't Talk About Israel

    in 1948 a place called Israel was created, backed by the military might of the United States.

    in 1948, 400 Palestinian villages were destroyed, and many of their inhabitants killed.

    the Palestinians have a term for it - "Al Nakba". their Holocaust.

    https://www.palestineremembered.com/

    has a few Gigabytes on the subject, including a few hundred interviews with Palestinians who witnessed Al Nakba.

    it is odd that the Jewish people would recover from the Holocaust by inflicting a Holocaust on another people. it is also odd that, shortly after their own experience with concentration camps, the Jewish people would put the Palestinian people in a concentration camp.

    and then people are surprised when the Palestinians fight back ?

    some of the Jewish people did fight back during World War 2. "For Those I Loved", written by a Jewish man named Martin Gray. He survived Auschwitz, his family did not.

    Let's not forget Al Nakba, the Palestinian Holocaust, and let's not forget people like Martin Gray who wrote about life in a concentration camp.
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  17. TopTop #17
    d-cat
    Guest

    Re: Why The Presidential Candidates Won't Talk About Israel

    glad to see Jewish people taking a stand against the Zionists' actions

    Jewish Women Occupy Israeli Consulate in Toronto
    YayaCanada - Blog2: Jewish Women Occupy Israeli Consulate in Toronto

    Australian Jews protest against Israel's action
    Australian Jews protest against Israel's action - World - smh.com.au

    Rabbis against Zionist Israel
    YouTube - Rabbi Feldman: Zionism is "Illegitimate Political Movement"
    YouTube - Rabbi Against Israel (Zionism)





    interesting article

    Time To Tell The Truth About Israel ...Without Fear Of The Mind Police
    The Thought Censors Don't Like It? Tough


    So, yet again, the people of the virtual-concentration camp, known officially as 'Gaza', are being bombarded from the sky by the bully-boys of Tel Aviv.

    State-of-the art Israeli jets, paid for by the United States, bomb civilian targets in this tragic, poverty-stricken wasteland which acts as a holding camp for the human beings the Israeli government would rather be dead. Waiting in the wings are Israeli tanks preparing for a possible ground invasion of Gaza, again paid for by the United States.

    The world watches as a nation of people, the Palestinians, are systematically crushed and destroyed by the tyrants who call the shots in Israel on behalf of that country's real power structure the House of Rothschild.

    And, taxpayers of America (and elsewhere), you are paying for this calculated slaughter.

    The Palestinian 'territories' of Gaza and the West Bank

    American aid to Israel accounts for something like a third of all US overseas aid when Israel is home to just .001 per cent of the global population and has one of the highest incomes per head in the world. This is even without all the 'private' donations from US corporations and individuals which are tax-deductible even when given to the Israeli military, unlike any other foreign power.

    According to 2007 figures, the United States government gave more than $6.8 million to wealthy Israel every day while to the desperate and devastated Palestinians of the Gaza Strip and the West Bank they gave just $300,000.

    US military 'aid' to Israel increased by more than a quarter to an average $3 billion a year in 2007 a figure guaranteed for ten years. This and other support makes Israel the biggest recipient of United States foreign military funding since the Second World War.

    The United States is also Israel's biggest supplier of fighter planes, weapons and other military technology. As a result, Israel has the world's largest F-16 fleet outside the "United States Air Force" US Air Force. In their book, The Israel Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy, John J. Mearsheimer and Stephen M. Walt write:

    'Since the October War in 1973, Washington has provided Israel with a level of support dwarfing the amounts provided to any other state. It has been the largest annual recipient of direct U.S. economic and military assistance since 1976 and the largest total recipient since World War ll. Total direct U.S. aid to Israel amounts to well over $140 billion in 2003 dollars.

    Israel receives about $3 billion in direct foreign assistance each year, which is roughly one-fifth of America's entire foreign aid budget. In per capita terms, the United States gives each Israeli a direct subsidy worth about $500 per year. This largesse is especially striking when one realizes that Israel is now a wealthy industrial state with a per capita income roughly equal to South Korea or Spain.'

    Why do they do this? Because the House of Rothschild controls Israel and the House of Rothschild controls the political system of the United States. The network that links the two is called 'Zionism', a Rothschild creation just like Israel itself.

    The might of this Zionist cabal spanning Israel, the United States, Europe and beyond is yet again, like the playground bully that it is, attacking the little kid in the calipers the people of Gaza.

    At the time of writing the death toll is 430 Palestinian men, women and children with more than 2,000 injured. They are bombing the unarmed innocent knowing there will be no credible response * the way all bullies operate. Oh, brave men of Israel; oh how Yahweh would be so proud:

    'When the LORD your God hands these nations over to you and you conquer them, you must completely destroy them. Make no treaties with them and show them no mercy.'

    Deuteronomy 7:1-4

    What we are seeing in Gaza, and have seen so many times, both there and in the Lebanon, is merciless Old Testament slaughter: cold, calculated, heartless slaughter.

    'So they sent twelve thousand warriors to Jabesh-gilead with orders to kill everyone there, including women and children. "This is what you are to do," they said. "Completely destroy all the males and every woman who is not a virgin".'

    Judges 21:10-24

    'Then I heard the LORD say to the other men, "Follow him through the city and kill everyone whose forehead is not marked. Show no mercy; have no pity! Kill them all old and young, girls and women and little children. But do not touch anyone with the mark. Begin your task right here at the Temple".'

    Ezekiel 9:5-7

    'So they began by killing the seventy leaders. "Defile the Temple!" the LORD commanded. "Fill its courtyards with the bodies of those you kill! Go!" So they went throughout the city and did as they were told.'

    Ezekiel 9:5-7

    The parallels are endless between the bloodthirsty 'God' of the Old Testament and the actions of the heartless, soulless, Artificial Intelligence that controls Israel, most notably the biological robots of the House of Rothschild who thus have no soul, no empathy, no more mercy for the consequences of their actions than a desktop computer.

    Imagine if Iran or anyone else outside Israel and the United States (both Rothschild assets) was doing what the Israeli military is doing in Gaza. There would be global condemnation, not least from Israel and the United States, resolutions passed in the UN Security Council and talk of the need for sanctions or military intervention to 'save the innocent'.

    But when Israel does it we have vacuous calls for a truce, an end to the violence while 'understanding Israel's position', and, in terms of soon-to-be President 'Change' Obama, silence. It's all a fraction of what others would face because Israel is a wholly-owned asset of the Rothschilds and so is not subject to the same rules as anyone else. As former Israeli Prime Minister, Ariel Sharon, said:

    'Israel may have the right to put others on trial, but certainly no one has the right to put the Jewish people and the State of Israel on trial.'

    And Prime Minister Golda Meir betrayed the same Zionist arrogance:

    'This country exists as the fulfilment of a promise made by God Himself. It would be ridiculous to ask it to account for its legitimacy.'

    Ah, it's all in the Old Testament? Gotcha, right, well do as you like then.

    The 'Jewish homeland' was from the start a Rothschild fiefdom orchestrated through the global secret society network of interbreeding families known as the Illuminati.

    During the Israeli military attacks on the Lebanon in 2006, the Israeli writer, Barry Chamish, told of a meeting with Evelyn Rothschild's grandson, who abandoned the family to be a Mormon (so actually he didn't, even if he thought he did).

    Chamish said he learned that just seven families were enjoying the 'fruits of the war' with the Lebanon. The grandson had said of the Rothschilds: 'They created Israel as their personal toy. It makes them richer and gives them more control. It's not going to be destroyed.'

    The Rothschilds funded the early European settlers in Israel, manipulated events in Germany that led to the horrific treatment of Jewish people and others, and then used that as the excuse to reach their long-term goal - a Rothschild-Illuminati stronghold in Palestine using the Jewish population as fodder to be used and abused as necessary.

    They called their plan 'Zionism'. This term is often used as a synonym for Jewish people when it is actually a political movement devised and promoted through the House of Rothschild and opposed by many Jews...

    for the rest of the article:
    Time For The Truth About Israel
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  18. TopTop #18
    Hotspring 44's Avatar
    Hotspring 44
     

    Re: Why The Presidential Candidates Won't Talk About Israel

    In regards to: "Is it any surprise that 300,000+ Israelis personally decided to settle in Gaza in order to try and stop the Palestinians from getting a separate country? I'm not saying that it's sompletely right, but I can certainly see their point that Israel should not have to give up land to accommodate the Palestinians when there are 3 other nations, with plenty of land to accommodate them, and therefore why should Israel be the one to bear all the burden, why could not their Arab brothers take them in."

    to put it simply without getting into a bunch of technical arguments about it; that's not what was agreed upon in 1964 the number 242 rings a bell loud and clear to me that certain parts of Palestine were absolutely, positively not supposed to be occupied by the Israeli military.

    It is my personal belief that there are individuals, whom planned the situation to be, so that the Palestinians could never have their land back at all ever. It seems to me that what Israel is doing as a country is proving that.


    Some people just do not fully comprehend the reality of what the term "Occupied Territory" really actually, means to the people who have to live within its boundaries.
    It would to my best ability be described as a prison for everybody from the newly conceived to the just dead old. In other words it is actually collective punishment for the whole population within its boundaries.


    It's no surprise to me that "people" would use something suchlike the term "premise" to justify stealing something from someone else and make it "right" (in America the word "justice" is commonly used in such a manner.) according to the so-called laws of the land at the time (the) so-called "premise" (whatever it may be at the time) appears to be on the surface "justifiable". For example the Israeli Palestine conflict as it stands today.
    At this point in time, both sides are committing war crimes.
    It appears to me that war crimes are being used to justify (continuing) more war crimes.
    In regards to:"As far as the violence, this can all be laid in the lap of Hamas, but as I note: Hamas permeates the Palestinian people to the pint that there are few innocents among the Palestinian menfolk.

    That comment reminds me of a pragmatic/philosophical discussion I had with a friend of mine about 15 years ago.

    It (my pragmatic/philosophical conclusion) basically ended up as follows:
    Nothing less than an Alexander the great like scorched earth policy against whatever side was the other side would be the only way to "solve the problem".
    today my "conclusion" is that the "Israeli" lobby is so politically connected and therefore strong enough in the United States that "it" has the potential of actually happening (by "it", I mean, the Alexander the great like scorched earth scenario.). The possibility of something like that actually happening to people today in this world with United States weapons technology thoroughly disgusts me as it should, everyone here as well.

    In regards to: As Neshamah points out, there are 4 other countries that should take part in accommodating the Palestinians, and they will not, leaving it all up to Israel.


    I think more than four countries have responsibilities. I think the whole body of the U N and all of the countries involved with the U N and maybe any of those four countries if any of them are not "official" members of the U N have responsibilities.

    As Bob Simon notes: Israel has made all the accommodations they are going to make, unless the Palestinians want to move to the Golan Heights, but I'll bet that Syria doesn't like them any more than Egypt does.


    In regards to: "And nobody should be expected to either. It comes back to the Palestinians, the ball is in their court: They can either band together, and disown Hamas, and come begging hat in hand, or they can stay in refugee camps and be treated as second class citizens for eternity, because as long as they keep up these acts of terrorism, nobody in the Levant feels sorry for them. World opinion is against terrorists, regardless of the "correctness", of their cause, and nobody is going to give in to it."


    The comment above is disturbingly ignorant and hateful as far as I can tell.

    The reason I'm saying, that is because:

    1- The vast majority of Palestinians have no power to as; toddwquigley put it; "band together to disown Hamas" , I'm specifically talking military power here to successfully be able to "disown" Hamas in the first place.
    2- So far nobody in the world has allowed the Palestinian people to have their own "viable" military in the first place. The Hamas would not allow them to have "their own" "viable" Palestinian citizen led military in the first place.
    The PLO would not let them have that nether nor would the Syrians either.
    The Egyptians might permit it. The Israelis definitely would
    not.
    The United States backs the Israelis.
    That's why I think it's a cruel thing to suggest “…
    Palestinians, the ball is in their court: They can either band together, and disown Hamas,… etc.” … because it's merely absolutely impossible as it stands today. Not only is it politically impossible. Those mostly innocent and unarmed people are now at this very moment getting bombarded and assaulted now as I'm writing this.
    It is disgustingly arrogant to blame innocent people for something they have absolutely no control over particularly when it is something which have more control over them than they do it.


    3- Innocent Palestinian women and children are being bombarded by Israelis using American technology and American money to do so.
    4- honestly some of those injuries people get from those bombardments is like
    being burned, bludgeoned by blunt force, and or skinned alive. And as a matter of recorded historical fact that it's happening to women, children and innocent (or at least not militant, noncombatant, Palestinian citizens of all sexes and ages) people that are stuck in between the two or more factions that are fighting.


    I personally do not want to support that kind of fighting (assault).
    Therefore as long as we (Americans via our tax money and the American government) give the Israeli government carte blanche permission (i.e.: approval, by way of either saying nothing, at best, and actually approving at worst and at one point in the past has even been known to have supplied "cluster bombs" to the Israeli military at very absolute worst.) In essence, so that it (the military bombardments in Palestine by the Israeli government) can continue to happen. which is by the way, most likely constitutes a
    "war crime"in itself.

    In regards to:
    It all comes back to two big questions:and, in regards to: Why must Israel be the only ones to accommodate them?, which leads to question number two:
    Re: etc.
    Why must Israel be the only ones to accommodate them?

    Why won't their Arab brothers accommodate them?

    I think that they are just not noticing the (actual) "accommodations" that have been given by their "Arab brothers".
    Question: Do you consider military support to be an accommodation?
    Considering past and current circumstances I would seriously consider it (by it, I mean military support, either directly or in materials such as weaponry, or money to purchase weaponry for example.) if I were an "Arab brother" of the Palestinians for example.

    In other words, it sounds to me like non-Arab countries trying to dictate to Arab countries, how and what they are allowed to accommodate the Palestinians with.
    Philosophically speaking, it reminds me of the movie called “zardoz”. Where some mythical Wizard of Oz like being spits out automatic guns and weapons to population below so they can go and make more war successfully against their enemies.
    With that in mind. It begs the question: asking; why doesn't the world give the Palestinians an equal amount of armaments as the Israelis have so they can protect themselves from the Syrians and the Egyptians and the Lebanese and the Israelis, and everyone else who wants to go in and invade their territory?
    It appears to me that the Palestinians are in a big huge giant squeeze.
    I don't think it's realistic to blame the Palestinian citizens for the whole mess.
    I'll even go further and say this: It is actually cruel to blame the Palestinian citizens as a whole. Furthermore that; Collective punishment of the citizen population is designated by NATO and United Nations as a war crime.

    In regards to:
    The answer is that they have made themselves unwelcome throughout the Levant by their bad behavior.
    It's fascinating that some people answer their own questions before anybody else gets a chance to respond. I know it's rhetorical that's okay I just had to say my (two cents worth) about that self fulfilled, prophetic so-called question.
    That
    “answer” reminds me of abusive parents that keep beating and abusing their children even though it is unsuccessful and does not change their bad behavior.
    They keep on beating and abusing even harder with more brutality because they (the children/victims in this case) "act-up".
    Yet the primary reason is mostly because of the abuse in the first place.
    It also reminds me of what happens on the playground when children are unsupervised.
    Basically everybody tries to either ignore or accommodate the big bad bully... until either somebody bigger and stronger beats him down.

    Or an organized effort of the majority of weaker smaller kids on the playground, team up on him and beat him down... the big huge giant exception in this case is the United States government. It is as if the administration of the principal's office, is actually backing the bully instead of protecting the smaller, weaker children that are caught in between or are actually the primary victims of the violence.

    In regards to: “The Egyptians, Israelis, Jordanians, Lebanese, and Syrians, have all learned to live together without constantly attacking each other, and nobody wants”… to break that uneasy peace, because they all know what happens when you go to war with Israel: You lose.
    In regards to: they all know what happens when you go to war with Israel: You lose.
    That comment sounds like a piece of arrogant Israeli gloating to me.
    I think all of us here using wackobb are intelligent, aware, and informed enough to realize that Israel would have been militarily wiped completely out if not for the financial and military support it has received and is receiving from the United States.
    In a nutshell here's my personal some call paranoid theory on the whole situation there in Israel [Note: much paraphrased]:
    I believe Israel has the "doomsday" device already installed and ready to go. Therefore, the question should be is the United States, accommodating Israel enough so that Israel actually never uses it? (The nuclear doomsday device).

    Actually, I believe Israel is basically secretly holding the doomsday device over the whole world's head and that the United States knows it but it's keeping it a secret because it's trying to figure out how to get it away from them or at least prevent it from ever being used.
    That's in my view the best case scenario.

    The worst-case scenario is that it's all predestined and predetermined therefore it will be used at some point.
    Furthermore nobody in the world can or is likely to stop it because "that's what the “book” said" or whatever excuse may be given to the government and military personnel to justify not preventing it from being utilized.


    here are my questions:

    Q1 A-does Israel have a viable nuclear weapon of any kind?...
    ...Q1 B- If so why does it not say so?

    Q3- how many people in the Arab world believe Israel does have a nuclear weapon?

    Q4- if Israel ever did have a nuclear weapon system would it be willing to become part of the nuclear arms treaty that other countries with nuclear arms are already in?... ...Or is it willing to be seen as a rogue nuclear armed nation by the U N or whatever takes its place sometime in the future?
    In regards to: Thank Yassar Arafat (Thank God he died) for spending his life stirring up trouble for no other reason than male Muslim Machismo. Thank Hamas for perpetuating this.
    I wonder what Israelis think about (the death of) Joseph Rabin who was assassinated by fellow Israelis because he was being successful with the Palestinians in regards to peace accord at the time?
    The whole thing is so glaringly obvious.

    The Israelis are taking all prime land and giving the Palestinians the axe.

    Plain and simple, the Israelis are pushing them into Syria, Lebanon, and Egypt.
    Last but not least, as far as the settlements are concerned the reasons that have been noted why the settlements exist is for the purpose of basically a military operation i.e., a buffer zone between the Israelis, Palestinians, Syria and Egypt.

    Which brings me to another conclusion that Israel is just as guilty as the Hamas is by putting their citizens in the line of fire, i.e. the new settlements.
    That means that those people are either military personnel being disguised as citizens or they are actually citizens being put there by the government of Israel or they are being allowed to go into a zone that would be considered in the line of fire.
    Either way you look at it whether they're going there as a strategic move. I.e. occupied territory which means its military move and therefore open to being targeted by militaries from opposing sides. Or, they are knowingly and willingly and possibly also encouraging their citizens to be put in the line of fire so that they can use that as an excuse as a “premise” to attack when whoever sends missiles into that occupied territory area.
    There's not much difference in my mind between Hamas hiding in the middle of town amongst citizens and firing rockets into Israel then it is Israelis to go into Palestinian territory with a very specific purpose to create a militarily buffer zone in that area.
    That is most certainly a “military operation”; therefore they are open to being “legitimately” targeted by any opposing military forces in those “occupied territories” areas.

    As far as NATO laws are concerned, as far as I can tell the occupied territories is technically a military operation regardless of whether or not, there are (Israeli) citizens living within that zone.



    In regards to: “Everybody wants to tray to live in peace EXCEPT the Palestinians.”
    I think that a lot of Palestinians disagree with that statement!
    The other question is; Can anybody live in peace when their land is occupied by foreign militia?

    I would like people here to remember one thing; that thing is that at this point in time our main news media here in America specifically TV, radio, and most newspapers are very biased towards Israel and against Palestine.
    With that in mind. Please note pre-1964 in America where if you were black, and you were accused, you were automatically assumed guilty even though the law books said otherwise.

    That didn't matter because the people that were there and enforcing (the law) did not follow it (the law).
    I think the same psychological/pathological thing applies here; whereas Palestinian nationality equals guilt just like pre-1964 deep South United States i.e. Black skin equals guilt.
    To make such a broad statement, like; “Everybody wants try to live in peace EXCEPT the Palestinians is absolutely absurd prejudicial cruel and unhelpful to the situation.”.
    And furthermore, to capitalize the word except shows extreme prejudice in the author's part.


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  19. TopTop #19
    "Mad" Miles
     

    Re: Why The Presidential Candidates Won't Talk About Israel

    Hey Hotspring 44,

    Israel has the nuclear bomb(s). Just google Mordecai Vanunu and check out the whole history. If you click on the link in his name you'll see I've already done it for you and others.

    Thanks for responding vociferously to the most egregious racist oppressive view I've seen expressed on waccobb recently. In the cases of that and other similar posters I have the majority of them already on my ignore list.

    What has surprised and pleased me is that when I do occasionally open the posts of a few of those I habitually ignore, I find that we're in agreement on this matter. Goes to show that even those who disagree about some things, can find common ground about other things.

    "Mad" Miles

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  20. TopTop #20
    weffers's Avatar
    weffers
     

    Re: Why The Presidential Candidates Won't Talk About Israel

    The Avalon Project : UN General Assembly Resolution 181

    The Avalon Project : Declaration of Israel's Independence 1948

    A/RES/194 (III) of 11 December 1948

    United Nations General Assembly Resolution 194 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    U.S., Israel Negotiate New Aid Package - International War and Peace - North Texas Indymedia

    Reading these UN resolution and other reports should help those who don't know that at the same time the Israeli state was created, the Palestinian state was too, but there was a glitch. The UN failed to uphold the creation of the Palestinian state due to the anti Jewish state war that was raged in 1948, and in December 1948, the UN General Assembly passed Resolution 194, which declared that in the context of a general peace agreement "refugees wishing to return to their homes and live in peace with their neighbors should be permitted to do so" and that "compensation should be paid for the property of those choosing not to return." However, the resolution was never implemented (by Israeli government).

    It has been my understanding that the us policy is to not give any support or funds to states secretly developing nuclear weapons. Israel & the US violated that policy according to the declassified documents:

    Nuclear Weapons - Israel

    sigh.

    with leaders like Queen Rania in Jordan and others with conscience, I hope everyone listens to the common sense that violence does not evolve the cause of a peaceful Palestinian state. Israel needs to stop the bullying and killing, use the dwindling friends it has in the Arabs states, intermediaries and the UN to get back to agreements to develop the state and bring peace.

    Queen Rania of Jordan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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  21. TopTop #21
    d-cat
    Guest

    Re: Why The Presidential Candidates Won't Talk About Israel

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by Hotspring 44: View Post
    I would like people here to remember one thing; that thing is that at this point in time our main news media here in America specifically TV, radio, and most newspapers are very biased towards Israel and against Palestine.
    Look at who used to be a lobbyist for AIPAC!
    YouTube - ??? is a Zionist

    Here he is being confronted
    YouTube - WeAreChange Confronts ???



    note: the WTC 7 (AKA the Salomon Bldg) referred to in the video is in regard to the the 3rd skyscraper that collapsed along with the twin towers (though it wasn't hit by a plane). Here is a previously unseen video of the collapse, and a few others:
    YouTube - New World Trade Center Building 7 Video
    YouTube - WTC-7 Collapse Footage
    YouTube - ENHANCED VERSION: News Reports WTC7 Fell Before It Happens!
    YouTube - WTC-7 Any Questions
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