"illegal alien" or "undocumented worker"?

[wunda]

What's in a name? Some sociologists study language and the symbolic meaning we collectively understand from our words. It is notable that it is virtually impossible to completely describe anything and that communication generally consists of expressions of the most significant parts of the thing or idea.

Depending on where you receive your news from, immigrants who come to the United States without legal authorization are commonly referred to as either "illegal immigrants" or "undocumented workers". So much is communicated with these two very different descriptions of the very same people.

One labels a human being as "illegal" as if the very fact of their existence violate laws... not to mention "alien" as if they came from some other galaxy rather than the lower part of the very same North American continent we reside in.

The term "undocumented worker" acknowledges the reason for their presence in the country (work), and that their papers are just not in order. (Ever notice that pets and immigrants both need paperwork registered with government agencies? I have an undocumented basset hound who refuses to do any work.)

The term "undocumented worker" doesn't tell us about what their intentions are... Will they file paperwork? Do they want to be citizens? Is their presence here a last desperate act to provide for their family? Are they here just to take advantage of the generosity of the American tax payer?

Really, do I need all that information anyhow? Maybe I do, but really the whole topic gets somewhat confusing when I try to determine where I stand on an issue based on the ideals I was raised with. My grandmother taught me that it was rude to quiz guests about the purpose of their visit when they arrive unannounced. And my Dad taught me that it's important to find out who is at the door before I open it.

[Braggi]

I have worked alongside many "undocumented workers" and have a great deal of respect for most of them.

I also know of many mentally ill people who are here from Mexico and other countries because their families were tired of dealing with them and they know there is treatment available here (more or less--less lately). These people are not workers by any stretch of the imagination. They have no intention of working and their families know full well they are being dumped here so they can be a drag on our economy and on our caregivers instead of on their nation and family of origin. They are here to steal from the bounty of the US. Many would be imprisoned if they stayed in their country of origin. They can't work or won't work. Many are addicted to alcohol or methamphetamine or both. Many are violent even to family members and friends.

What do you propose we call them? What do you propose we do about them?

I'm not trying to be a jerk but there is a need to keep eyes wide open on the immigration issue(s). It's a complex web we've woven with many problems that have gone unanswered. The answers aren't always easy.

-Jeff

[ThePhiant]

Jeff, thanks for your perspective
but as you know "many" is a very vague, ambiguous and possibly misleading concept.
what number of people are you talking about?
if I am a cop, I will notice a lot of lawbreakers
If I am warden, I will see plenty of convicts
so how do you happen upon those cast-offs
I have worked with plenty of Hispanics to know that there are "Ladrones" as well, but I have never heard of what you are saying

I have worked alongside many "undocumented workers" and have a great deal of respect for most of them.

I also know of many mentally ill people who are here from Mexico and other countries because their families were tired of dealing with them and they know there is treatment available here (more or less--less lately). These people are not workers by any stretch of the imagination. They have no intention of working and their families know full well they are being dumped here so they can be a drag on our economy and on our caregivers instead of on their nation and family of origin. They are here to steal from the bounty of the US. Many would be imprisoned if they stayed in their country of origin. They can't work or won't work. Many are addicted to alcohol or methamphetamine or both. Many are violent even to family members and friends.

What do you propose we call them? What do you propose we do about them?

I'm not trying to be a jerk but there is a need to keep eyes wide open on the immigration issue(s). It's a complex web we've woven with many problems that have gone unanswered. The answers aren't always easy.

-Jeff

[Braggi]

Jeff, thanks for your perspective
but as you know "many" is a very vague, ambiguous and possibly misleading concept. what number of people are you talking about?

Good point. I know "many" folks who work for Sonoma County Mental Health which overlaps with the jail mental health services. Dozens of non citizen mental health cases are in the system at any given time, I'm not sure if it's fewer than a hundred. If they get incarcerated, they might drop off the Mental Health worker's radar since it's a lot harder to see a mental health worker in jail.

But even if the number is less than 10 at any given time, the questions remain. It's also worth mentioning that some of these patients are from countries other than Mexico including some Asian countries.

-Jeff

[Tars]

I also know of many mentally ill people who are here from Mexico and other countries because their families were tired of dealing with them and they know there is treatment available here

Can you be more specific about this - point to any credible sources for this that aren't just hearsay?

It sounds like fear speaking to me, sorry. It reminds me of the people who say that foreign workers are bringing in HIV and leprosy.

The only demographic studies I've seen about the latino population in the U.S., legal or not, demonstrate that, as a group, they are pretty much at the top of the range as workers, family members, neighbors, business builders, etc.

"Paranoia strikes deep..."

[Braggi]

Can you be more specific about this - point to any credible sources for this that aren't just hearsay?

It sounds like fear speaking to me, sorry. It reminds me of the people who say that foreign workers are bringing in HIV and leprosy.

"Paranoia strikes deep..."

The point was what do we call them. How do we even discuss them? I'm not suggesting there is a huge stream of violent crazies coming from other countries intending to overwhelm our mental health services. However, this is a population that isn't discussed. And no, I can't point to credible sources because of privacy issues. I will say I know and talk with mental health workers in the public sector regularly. I'm not creating a paranoid racist story here. This is a very real issue.

Our County mental health hospital was recently closed, in significant part because they were required by law to provide services to undocumented patients, even though California voters, in their infinite xenophobic wisdom, voted to prevent the state from paying for the services. How crappy is that?

Our public mental health services are in a shambles and that's the truth. Providing services to "illegal aliens" who do not pay for them is one of the significant reasons why. We need words so that we can discuss the issue intelligently if we're going to come to any positive conclusions.

-Jeff

[wunda]

I don't think you're a jerk for bringing it up. It is a valid question, and i have no answer. My late night ramblings served only to open a new discussion on the topic. Labels are important, and I agree that immigration issues are complex. I have no sure fire solutions in this matter.

Security is important to our nation as is keeping the costs of production low. These two factors are in conflict with one another. Opposers of using an immigrant labor force to keep costs low often speak of their willingness to pay more for goods and services in the name of national security. However, those holding that particular point of view have middle class incomes and the ability to pay more for goods and services. The working poor, who fill important low wage jobs in the US economy, may no longer be able to afford the cost of goods and services if we no longer use immigrant labor. As a member of the "working poor" this would further threaten the economic stability of my family-who already faces ongoing and significant economic challenges to survive in Sonoma County.

Immigrant labor has become too important to our economy for our government to heavily enforce immigration laws or ensure that no one enters the country illegally. The random immigration round ups we hear about in the news are meant to look like something is being done, while in reality, not much will ever be.

I know very little on the subject of dumping unwanted or mentally ill Mexicans on US soil to take advantage of our dollars. From what I have read on the subject, Border control laws and challenging terrain make trips from Mexico to the United States challenging for undocumented workers. Each year several hundred would-be immigrants attempting to cross the border illegally in often remote settings die from drowning, exposure, suffocation, traffic accidents and criminal violence. “This ensures that only the physically and emotionally strongest young migrants succeeded in crossing the border to join the US labor force. Children, the elderly, the disabled and the fearful are discouraged from even attempting to enter the country” (Walter, Nicolas; Bourgois, Philippe’ Loinaz, H. Margarita 2004: “Masculinity and Undocumented Labor Migration: Injured Latino Day Laborers in San Francisco.” Social Science and Medicine Vol 59 2004 pgs 1159-1168)

Using the logic in the passage above it is difficult to imagine getting a mentally ill or aging immigrant across the border, but certainly not impossible.

[wunda]

Jeff I love your point "what do we call them?" Before we can have an intellectual discussion about what to do about issues, naming becomes important.

[Braggi]

It's a challenge to come up with terms that aren't disparaging and loaded with prejudice and at the same time avoid ridiculous political correctness.

I'll give an example of the latter: there is a movement in the mental health community to change the term for those who need treatment to "consumers" instead of "patients." I went to a NAMI conference and it was bizarre hearing the term consumer over and over during the presentations while in my mind I had to translate to patient for it to make sense to me. Nobody polled the psychiatrists and therapists about this. I don't think any doctor went to medical school to treat consumers. They want to treat patients just like any other doctor. Leave well enough alone already. I can't imagine there are a great many offended by the term patient.

Ah, perhaps these mentally ill immigrants are "illegal consumers." Oh ... forget I mentioned it. If I had a good answer for this question I wouldn't have asked it. It's weird to be so hampered in communication by limits of language.

In answer to the question about transportation, you should know that a lot of illegal immigration happens in big trucks. Under current NAFTA regulations Mexican truckers can come into the US with minimal inspection (only a fraction are inspected thoroughly) and drive all over the state. Thank Bill Clinton for that one.

So, I have some opinions on it all and a few possible solutions, but most likely services are going to continue to dwindle while the populations in need continue to grow. Quite a civilization we have here. The fastest growing part of government is law enforcement including the prison industry. I wish that was different. Imagine if the fastest growing part of government was child care?

-Jeff

[Tars]

The point was what do we call them. How do we even discuss them?

Heh...you certainly won't get a consensus on that! Best you & Wunda can do is get an idea of a person's political orientation based on what term that person uses for "non-American brown worker". I mention "brown" because no one's bitching about those mentally messed-up Norwegians whose families are shipping them surreptitiously over here to take advantage of our generous mental health system.

OK, sorry, please don't take my poor attempt at irony as a personal attack. Yep, non-Americans do go through our medical system from time to time. and they don't pay either. Truth-be-told though, whatever cost there is, is probably more than balanced out by Americans who're traveling to foreign countries to get free or low-cost medical services they just can't afford here. There's a whole new tourism industry building up to provide Americans with "medical vacation packages"!

I'm not suggesting there is a huge stream of violent crazies coming from other countries intending to overwhelm our mental health services.

Whew - relief!

And no, I can't point to credible sources because of privacy issues.

Hmmm...

I will say I know and talk with mental health workers in the public sector regularly. I'm not creating a paranoid racist story here. This is a very real issue.

And a widely-discussed issue too. The problem there isn't really the non-Americans, but rather a dysfunctional Republicanized healthcare system. But that's really a different subject, isn't it?

We need words so that we can discuss the issue intelligently if we're going to come to any positive conclusions.

Sorry, I think spending effort looking for agreement on terms, though no doubt well-intentioned, is just an exercise in thinking of what to call the trees, while it would be much more productive to figure out what to do with that big forest there!

Frankly, it really doesn't matter what individuals might call the "non-American brown people". It will most certainly not be generally agreed upon in our lifetimes at least. The problem is finding a way, agreed to by at least 60 senators and 270 Reps, to integrate these necessary people logically into our economy.

[Moon]

The real problem is a very few, very rich, white men who manipulate the world economy
so that Mexico doesn't have the resources to provide mental health services to its people.
Leveling the playing field will benefit everyone but those few.

[ThePhiant]

jeff
I am still puzzled by this statement, especially since it came from you.
being dumped here??? how did they do that???
if they walk for 2 days in the desert it costs them $1500 to stay here
if they get smuggled in, twice that much
how do Mexicans get that kind of money to DUMP their crazies here???
can you extrapolate on your knowledge


[quote=Braggi;38032]I have worked alongside many "undocumented workers" and have a great deal of respect for most of them.

They have no intention of working and their families know full well they are being dumped here so they can be a drag on our economy and on our caregivers instead of on their nation and family of origin. They are here to steal from the bounty of the US.

[Dynamique]

For that matter, the United States does not have the resources to provide mental health services to its people, either!

That's one reason why we have a lot of American citizens with mental illness living in creeks and eating out of garbage cans. It's inexcusable.

The real problem is a very few, very rich, white men who manipulate the world economy
so that Mexico doesn't have the resources to provide mental health services to its people.

[Speak2Truth]

Depending on where you receive your news from, immigrants who come to the United States without legal authorization are commonly referred to as either "illegal immigrants" or "undocumented workers". So much is communicated with these two very different descriptions of the very same people.

As Barry Soetoro said, "don't tell me words don't have meaning!"

I think both terms miss the mark but clearly "illegal alien" is the more accurate of the two. "Illegal" because they are knowingly in violation of our nation's laws and our Constitution by being in this country. "Alien", if you look it up in the dictionary, has clear definitions that do not imply arrival from another planet:

al⋅ien

  /ˈeɪlyən, ˈeɪliən/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [eyl-yuhn, ey-lee-uhn] Show IPA –noun

1.	a resident born in or belonging to another country who has not acquired citizenship by naturalization (distinguished from citizen ).

2.	a foreigner.

3.	a person who has been estranged or excluded.

4.	a creature from outer space; extraterrestrial.

Okay, we all know we're not talking about number 4.

But, as far as our Constitution applies, the correct term is "invader". That is, someone who has entered without permission. The Constitution requires our government, and every public servant who takes the oath to uphold and defend the Constitution, to "repel invasion". That is, to force out of our country all persons who unlawfully enter.

Invasion need not be armed to succeed in the goal of conquest. Clearly, with the Aztlan movement going strong and establishing official recruitment clubs in the schools, with massive demonstrations on May 1 of people carrying signs saying, "Today we march, tomorrow we vote", this invasion is a coordinated effort at demographic and political conquest. Even the portion of the invaders who come merely to seek work will vote for the candidate who "represents them", the one working towards the Aztlan reconquista agenda. So far, Mayor Villaigarosa of Los Angeles is among many working to aid the foreign conquest operation.

"Invader" is the most accurate and concise term to apply. It is a legally defined status and requires direct response from our public servants.

Naturally, this term does not apply to legal immigrants who respect our nation's laws.

No nation can survive when it allows a foreign nation to simply march in tens of millions of occupiers.

[Mike Van Horn]

"No nation can survive when it allows a foreign nation to simply march in tens of millions of occupiers."
Interesting assertion, but where's your evidence? And what the heck does this have to do with immigrants? Seems needlessly overwrought.

For every immigrant you point to that sucks up public benefits, I'll point to one who started a Silicon Valley hi tech firm and created hundreds of jobs, or whose kids won a Nobel Prize for the US. Or who works their tails off in our farms, restaurants, hotels, and construction.

For every immigrant you point to that "takes a job away from a real American" I'll point to one who takes on jobs a spoiled, lazy Anglo won't touch.

For every low-paying immigrant-filled manufacturing job you tsk-tsk at, I'll show you a job that hasn't been offshored to China or India.

For every one of you who doesn't expect to keel over dead upon retirement, we need at least four younger workers paying taxes to support your golden years. Even more to support the grandiose healthcare plans wending their way through Congress. Where do you think these productive, tax-paying workers are going to come from? Not white suburbia, where parents have barely been replacing themselves with progeny.

We'd better open up the gates to hordes of hard-working immigrants, unless you expect your kids to support you into your 80s and 90s. Hah!

mvh

[Speak2Truth]

"No nation can survive when it allows a foreign nation to simply march in tens of millions of occupiers."

You ask for evidence, here is a recent example: Kosovo failed to keep out illegal immigrants, Albanian Muslims. Once those invaders had sufficient strength, they began harassing and terrorizing the domestic population, they created the Kosovo Liberation Army, Serbia responded by trying to force them out, Bill Clinton sent in our bombers to attack Serbia and aid the Islamic takeover, and it worked.

Independence Is Proclaimed By Kosovo
Serbia Condemns Break; U.S. Recognition Expected
Independence Is Proclaimed By Kosovo - washingtonpost.com

Look at the parallels in the USA. We have tens of millions of people flooding in, insisting on maintaining their own national and racist ("Por La Raza") identity and loyalty, creating a militant revolutionary group (MECHA) that recruits in the schools to build strength and train for political takeover, puts clear warnings in our faces that they are building towards conflict to drive out anyone not of their own race/Aztlan identity, they fly a terrorist banner featuring a bird of prey holding an Aztec war club and a lit stick of dynamite, they publicly proclaim their intention to do here exactly what the Islamists did in Kosovo...

Video: Reconquista Extremism
YouTube - Reconquista Extremism

The evidence is all around us. The question is whether we will defend our nation or let them do EXACTLY WHAT THEY TELL US THEY ARE DOING.

For every immigrant you point to that sucks up public benefits, I'll point to one who started a Silicon Valley hi tech firm

No, no, no, don't play that game. You are intentionally mixing in legal immigrants, who are subject to lawful acceptance among us as well as health and criminal background checks, with CRIMINAL INVADERS. Please, don't confuse the two.

For every immigrant you point to that "takes a job away from a real American" I'll point to one who takes on jobs a spoiled, lazy Anglo won't touch.

Whatta racist!

Applicants line up to fill jobs open after plant raid nabs 600 illegal workers
https://www.clarionledger.com/apps/p...8270366&Ref=AR

We'd better open up the gates to hordes of hard-working immigrants, unless you expect your kids to support you into your 80s and 90s. Hah!

In other words, allow a foreign nation, that makes no secret of intent to conquer and seize control of a portion of the US to carve out a new nation, to pour in its invaders.

You proclaim yourself an ally of our enemies.

[Tars]

I don't usually let myself get involved in the nationalist paranoia stuff. I'll probably regret replying to this one. But...

Speak2Truth (but which truth?) said:

Look at the parallels in the USA. We have tens of millions of people flooding in, insisting on maintaining their own national and racist ("Por La Raza") identity and loyalty

Also, see: Spanish, French, British, Chinese, Irish, Russian, etc.

creating a militant revolutionary group (MECHA) that recruits in the schools to build strength and train for political takeover, puts clear warnings in our faces that they are building towards conflict to drive out anyone not of their own race/Aztlan identity

Never heard of them. Put 'em in the category with the rest of the wackos, like the Minutemen, KKK, Nation Of Islam, Branch Davidians. Sadly, every major population group has their own wackos, especially theose who've been here in greater numbers, longer than the current group of "CRIMINAL INVADERS".

The evidence is all around us. The question is whether we will defend our nation or let them do EXACTLY WHAT THEY TELL US THEY ARE DOING.

Which "nation" are you referring to. The United States "nation" encourages immigration. Immigration keeps our society healthy and thriving, economically, socially, intellectually; any way you'd care to name.

No, no, no, don't play that game. You are intentionally mixing in legal immigrants, who are subject to lawful acceptance among us as well as health and criminal background checks, with CRIMINAL INVADERS. Please, don't confuse the two.

Well, I for one am not confused about it, and I have a good amount of experience working and living with and around the CRIMINAL INVADERS you refer to (including some from Great Britain, but that's for a different rant). I personally know CRIMINAL INVADERS who work here, and have taxes deducted from their pay, and who never get to directly benefit from those taxes they pay. Nice, deal for U.S. society, eh?

[cdegenhardt]

Clearly the Native Americans should have done a bit more to get their public servants on it when the White Eye invaders came to the mainland from Spain, France, etc. Just as the Native Hawaiians should have done a bit more when the Haolies - that'd be us Mainlanders - stole the Islands from them after our Invasion of their Sovereign Nation. As you say, no nation can survive when they simply allow an invading people to enter their land willi-nilly, without regard for law or custom.
On the other hand, this country is made up of a series of "legal" & "illegal" immigrations - going back to the Dutch in what is now New York. And most of the Anglo/Caucasion population (heritage) is here as a result of illegal immigration - otherwise known as Invasion by your terminology - it's hardly
kosher to start talking about others' invasions after our existence here is purely a result of such Invasion. Many of these same "Illegals," particularly the Mexican folks, are simply returning to lands they lost in the last Invasion - that'd be the war between Spain, Mexico & the US, for those unfamiliar. Cycles. That's all. Just evolutionary cycles of who claims what land as theirs. And how long they can hold it.

As Barry Soetoro said, "don't tell me words don't have meaning!"

I think both terms miss the mark but clearly "illegal alien" is the more accurate of the two. "Illegal" because they are knowingly in violation of our nation's laws and our Constitution by being in this country. "Alien", if you look it up in the dictionary, has clear definitions that do not imply arrival from another planet:

al⋅ien

  /ˈeɪlyən, ˈeɪliən/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [eyl-yuhn, ey-lee-uhn] Show IPA –noun

1.	a resident born in or belonging to another country who has not acquired citizenship by naturalization (distinguished from citizen ).

2.	a foreigner.

3.	a person who has been estranged or excluded.

4.	a creature from outer space; extraterrestrial.

Okay, we all know we're not talking about number 4.

But, as far as our Constitution applies, the correct term is "invader". That is, someone who has entered without permission. The Constitution requires our government, and every public servant who takes the oath to uphold and defend the Constitution, to "repel invasion". That is, to force out of our country all persons who unlawfully enter.

Invasion need not be armed to succeed in the goal of conquest. Clearly, with the Aztlan movement going strong and establishing official recruitment clubs in the schools, with massive demonstrations on May 1 of people carrying signs saying, "Today we march, tomorrow we vote", this invasion is a coordinated effort at demographic and political conquest. Even the portion of the invaders who come merely to seek work will vote for the candidate who "represents them", the one working towards the Aztlan reconquista agenda. So far, Mayor Villaigarosa of Los Angeles is among many working to aid the foreign conquest operation.

"Invader" is the most accurate and concise term to apply. It is a legally defined status and requires direct response from our public servants.

Naturally, this term does not apply to legal immigrants who respect our nation's laws.

No nation can survive when it allows a foreign nation to simply march in tens of millions of occupiers.

[Speak2Truth]

Never heard of them. Put 'em in the category with the rest of the wackos, like the Minutemen, KKK, Nation Of Islam, Branch Davidians.

No, they are like those wackos the National Socialist Workers Party trying to create the Aryan Nation. Their militant arm, the Brown Berets de Aztlan, even wear strikingly similar uniforms and their rhetoric is nearly identical, including anti-Jewish rants. They're not a fringe element. They are millions strong.

You've never hear of 'em? You can blame the mass media for that. If you watched my TV show you would have gotten plenty of first-hand information and video footage.

Which "nation" are you referring to. The United States "nation" encourages immigration. Immigration keeps our society healthy and thriving, economically, socially, intellectually; any way you'd care to name.

That IS why we have immigration laws - to ensure that only those who are beneficial to our society and system are allowed in, after medical and criminal background checks.

Do not try to mix the criminal invaders in with the screened and lawful immigrants. They are also bringing in diseases like leprosy, untreatable tuberculosis... and they are handling your food.

Why do you guys keep claiming there is some sort of financial benefit to allowing Mexico to send in this invasion force? Are you putting short-term greed ahead of the survival of this nation?

I look at our resources being overtaxed by the population explosion, hospitals shutting down because they can no longer afford to treat, for free, the invaders, all sorts of injustices against Americans committed to try to accommodate the invaders... and you guys put notions of financial gain first and foremost?

For my part, I'm against that sort of "cheap labor" greed. We are Americans and we must look at the whole picture. It is national suicide to allow "American's Palestinians" (that's what the Aztlanists call themselves) to march in with overt plans to wage violence when they have achieved sufficient strength.

They are waging the Process of Jihad, having learned it directly from Yasser Arafat.

[Speak2Truth]

Clearly the Native Americans should have done a bit more to get their public servants on it when the White Eye invaders came to the mainland from Spain, France, etc. Just as the Native Hawaiians should have done a bit more when the Haolies - that'd be us Mainlanders - stole the Islands from them after our Invasion of their Sovereign Nation.

You raise an interesting point. I'll add a question to it: What could they have done? They were not able to recover from the diseases that ruined their massive cities and decimated their populations. It was inevitable that somebody would fill in the void. I'm not saying it was a good thing for those immigrants (there are no Native Americans) who arrived here before the Europeans - I'm just saying that it was inevitable. They could not stop it.

But you seem to be saying they SHOULD have stopped it if they could. They SHOULD have been smart enough, had sufficient foresight to do so.

Well, WE CAN.

Or are you happy to roll belly-up and let America be carved up by whomever wants to walk in, knowingly disregarding the laws of this nation, to seize it?

Do you REALLY want to live under the dominion of "La Raza"?

Many of these same "Illegals," particularly the Mexican folks, are simply returning to lands they lost in the last Invasion - that'd be the war between Spain, Mexico & the US, for those unfamiliar. Cycles. That's all. Just evolutionary cycles of who claims what land as theirs. And how long they can hold it.

Mexico only held it for a few decades, after murdering the first wave of Immigrants. To this day, those "first wave" immigrants are treated like sh*t in Mexico. I was horrified when I went down there to see how Mexicans treat los indios.

It's time to make a mature, grown-up decision as an American. Roll over and simply let them take power here or stop them? We CAN stop them. Greedy, corrupt people don't want us to but if we care enough about our liberty, if we want to avoid the brutality of Mexican rule, we CAN stop the invasion.

We need only enforce our nation's Constitution, just like every public servant takes an oath to do.

When the public servants fail in their delegated duties, it is up to The People to enforce the Constitution.

That's exactly what the Minutemen are doing.

Who among you would want to tell the next generation, living under brutal Mexican rule and corruption, that you ridiculed the Minutemen instead of helping them defend our nation?