Allan Hardman's "New Relationship", "Being the source of love, you are complete..."

[donallan]

~ #3 in Allan Hardman’s "The New Relationship" Series of Talks
"Being the source of Love, you are complete within yourself."

This event is sponsored by the Association for Healthy Relationships Singles2Couples group and is the third in a series. All are welcome to these experiential presentations commencing January 10, 2007 and occurring every other Wednesday thru March 21, 2007.

THE NEW RELATIONSHIP:
FIVE AGREEMENTS TO MAKE LOVE COME TRUE.

A SERIES OF TALKS BY TOLTEC MASTER, ALLAN HARDMAN
WEDNESDAY, FEBRUARY 7, 2007 ~ 7 PM TO 9 PM

ALLAN HARDMAN will present his work on the Five Agreements for The New Relationship and his suggestions for breaking the old dreams of romance and relationships of all kinds. Once we have awareness of the old agreements, and are ready to discard those that do not serve us, we can go about the work of replacing them with new ways of relating and respecting each other. These new agreements are applicable in romantic relationships, of course, but also have value in your relationships with parents and children, friends and neighbors, bosses and employees, and ultimately and most important, with yourself.


NEW AGREEMENTS 1-5:
* "Your nature is Love. You are the source of Love in your life." (CD available)
* "You are not responsible for causing other people's emotional reactions to your reality." (CD available)
* "Being the source of love, you are complete within yourself." (2/7/07)
* "The Truth is more important than the outcome of the Relationship." (2/21/07)
* "True happiness is the result of love coming out of you." (3/7/07)

This week: "BEING THE SOURCE OF LOVE, YOU ARE COMPLETE WITHIN YOURSELF."

When you recognize that you are complete within yourself, and you know you are the source of love in your life, you are able to see people for who they truly are. You build your relationships on that reality. The compatibility in your relationships comes from common interests and values, rather than from the attractions of "Mutually Compatible Disowned Selves."


Allan Hardman is an expert on relationships, parenting, addictions, emotional healing, and spiritual growth. He is a Toltec Mentor in the Eagle Knight lineage of the Nagual Miguel Ruiz, author of The Four Agreements with whom he served an intensive ten year apprenticeship. Allan brings extensive experience in spiritual counseling and emotional healing to his teaching of the Toltec Path. From his home base in Sonoma County, California, Allan supports local and long distance apprentice programs and leads "Journeys of the Spirit" to sacred sites in Mexico and Peru. He is the co-author of The Heart of Healing and Healing the Heart of the World with Deepak Chopra, Caroline Myss, Dr. Andrew Weil, Prince Charles, and others. He has recently completed The Everything Toltec Wisdom Book, for summer 2007 publication.

Don't miss this opportunity for an interactive evening with a Master. The public is invited, so tell and/or bring a friend!

Event & Contact Information:

Current Date:
Wednesday, February 7, 2007 ~ 7 pm to 9 pm

Additional Dates in the Series:
Wednesday, February 21, 2007 ~ 7 pm to 9 pm
Wednesday, March 7, 2007 ~ 7 pm to 9 pm
Wednesday, March 21, 2007 ~ 7 pm to 9 pm

Cost:
Suggested donation $10, (no one turned away for lack of funds more gladly accepted)

Directions:
Health, Movement & Learning Center,
238 Roberts Ave., Santa Rosa, CA 95401

- Take the Dutton Exit on Hwy 12 and go North
(meaning make a left if you come from Sebastopol or a right if you come from 101)
- Turn right on West 3rd Street
- Go 0.2 miles
- Turn right on Roberts Ave.
- Drive all the way to the end (lots of parking available)

For More Information:
https://www.singles2couples.org/Prof...lan_Hardman.asp
https://www.singles2couples.org/cal....tom_of_calendar
Or call Allan's Joydancer office at 707.528.1271

Contact Information for Allan Hardman:
707.528.1271 - [email protected] - www.joydancer.com

[Sonomamark]

I guess that must be why everyone is clamoring to get into solitary confinement, and singles ads just don't seem to sell.

Honestly, Allan, do you look around now and then and consider the actual nature of the human beast before penning your latest absolutist platitude?

We're social animals. We need connection, belonging and approval. You certainly do: you're angling for guru status night and day.

Just a friendly reality check from The Society for Thinking for Ourselves...


Sonomamark

~ #3 in Allan Hardman’s "The New Relationship" Series of Talks
"Being the source of Love, you are complete within yourself."

[Light]

Dear WaccoBB friend . . .

I am curious about why so many WaccoBB participants are upset with Allan Hardman. I have known Allan for years, and never once got the impression that he believed we do not need each other. He created the Summer Celebration of Love so people could get together and express their love for Life, for Each Other, and for the Earth.

He teaches that we are each complete as Human Beings, and do not need anyone else to fill the emptiness which many believe exists inside us. We were born with the capacity to know, understand, and share Love, and expressing this love with others is vital.

We choose mates because we feel comfortable with them and want to explore all the goodness and beauty of Life with them. If we do not feel comfortable with ourselves, and believe someone else can make us whole and complete, we may want to explore the magic and essential goodness that dwells within us before choosing a mate.

The 'age of the guru' is over. We all have the ability to plunge right in and play a vital role in creating a new Earth, inhabited by beautiful Beings who express Love and Light in all we do. I have found Allan Hardman to be very available and urge you to contact him through his website, Joydancer.com. You will be excited to discover there's lots of room for expansion in the New Consciousness. There's a wonderful Place for us all to participate, to create, and express while we grow.

Yours in Peace and Wisdom,

Light

[nurturetruth]

BEAUTIFUL, "Light" !

Well said ! and thanks for expressing your curiosity along with your thoughts!

Dear WaccoBB friend . . .

I am curious about why so many WaccoBB participants are upset with Allan Hardman. I have known Allan for years, and never once got the impression that he believed we do not need each other. He created the Summer Celebration of Love so people could get together and express their love for Life, for Each Other, and for the Earth.

He teaches that we are each complete as Human Beings, and do not need anyone else to fill the emptiness which many believe exists inside us. We were born with the capacity to know, understand, and share Love, and expressing this love with others is vital.

We choose mates because we feel comfortable with them and want to explore all the goodness and beauty of Life with them. If we do not feel comfortable with ourselves, and believe someone else can make us whole and complete, we may want to explore the magic and essential goodness that dwells within us before choosing a mate.

The 'age of the guru' is over. We all have the ability to plunge right in and play a vital role in creating a new Earth, inhabited by beautiful Beings who express Love and Light in all we do. I have found Allan Hardman to be very available and urge you to contact him through his website, Joydancer.com. You will be excited to discover there's lots of room for expansion in the New Consciousness. There's a wonderful Place for us all to participate, to create, and express while we grow.

Yours in Peace and Wisdom,

Light

[Sonomamark]

Well, I agree, Light wrote some very pretty prose.

Unfortunately, it's not very reality-based, in my opinion. I could go into all the ways she waves broad brushes to describe complex phenomena (my favorite is the one-sentence truism on why people choose mates), but I'd rather answer her (I believe it's a her) question.

She or he asks for reasons "why so many WBB participants are upset with Allan Hardman". I can't speak for them, only for me, but here's my reason. I repeat--it's only mine. If others agree, they can speak for themselves.

So here it is: My personal opinion is that Hardman is selling modern-day snake oil, in the form of exactly the kind of oversimplified, thoughtless nonsense that we've been discussing on the "Is there a god" thread in WaccoTalk. I believe this is not only ethically unconscionable, it is socially damaging.

150 years ago, such hucksters sold coal oil as a "cure" for cancer. Today, New Age "teachers" sell shallow platitudes, superstition and castles in the air as a "cure" for the hard work, setbacks, confusion and sorrows that are natural and unavoidable elements of life. Judging by his promotional posts to WaccoBB (and his roots in the lineage of the putative "Toltec shaman" "Don" Miguel Ruiz, author of the vapid "Four Agreements"), he tells people a soothing children's story of the world as a place that can be successfully and happily negotiated with a handful of oversimplified rules, rather than the bewilderingly complex place it is, requiring context-specific, situational judgment calls every day.

I think that he--like the hucksters of "The Secret" and a thousand other ersatz and imaginary "healing disciplines" and "alternative spiritualities" here in the New Age Capital of the Planet--exploits others who feel empty and want to feel better through being told what to think instead of figuring it out for themselves. And somehow, there is always money for the wisdom-monger involved.

In my opinion, setting yourself up to be paid to "be wise" and/or "teach wisdom" is social parasitism. It preys on the weak, the ill, and the unhappy. It adds nothing to the world but delusion, and contributes to the snowballing decline of reason that pervades our culture.

With every year, our society grows more gullible, and as we do, we become more susceptible to the comforting and self-righteous lies sold by churches, pundits, and wannabee gurus. Our nation and our world suffer for it. In our growing lack of reason, we elect ignorant zealots who act out of their black-and-white beliefs about the world, instead of learning about it and thinking critically. The promulgation of these shallow and self-congratulatory philosophies is the mechanism of our nation's descent into a new Dark Age of ignorance. That's the "New Consciousness" that's rising, and anyone who thinks otherwise simply isn't paying attention.

If Hardman really believed that "...we are each complete as Human Beings, and do not need anyone else to fill the emptiness which many believe exists inside us", he would know that we don't need him to tell us so, because we're not lacking anything, including whatever he thinks he has to tell us. So it's about something else--something far more personal to him. My best guess is that it's about his desire to "be somebody", to be looked up to, and to make money. It is possible that he isn't even aware of this: that he believes his own press releases, and thinks of himself as somehow contributing to the world.

I could be entirely wrong. As I said, this is an opinion. But it's one based in how I read the available evidence.

And let me say: there have been plenty of other hucksters flogging their tinpot "wisdom" here on whom I and others haven't landed as hard as we have Hardman. Some of that is because of the flagrant oversimplifications that he tends to choose as his marketing slogans. But that by no means indicates that these others don't richly deserve it as well. Hardman has become the WaccoBB's identified target for criticism of self-appointed wisdom sellers, and I grant that is not entirely fair--not that he doesn't deserve it, but plenty of others do, too, and have skated.



Mark

Dear WaccoBB friend . . .

I am curious about why so many WaccoBB participants are upset with Allan Hardman. I have known Allan for years, and never once got the impression that he believed we do not need each other. He created the Summer Celebration of Love so people could get together and express their love for Life, for Each Other, and for the Earth.

He teaches that we are each complete as Human Beings, and do not need anyone else to fill the emptiness which many believe exists inside us. We were born with the capacity to know, understand, and share Love, and expressing this love with others is vital.

We choose mates because we feel comfortable with them and want to explore all the goodness and beauty of Life with them. If we do not feel comfortable with ourselves, and believe someone else can make us whole and complete, we may want to explore the magic and essential goodness that dwells within us before choosing a mate.

The 'age of the guru' is over. We all have the ability to plunge right in and play a vital role in creating a new Earth, inhabited by beautiful Beings who express Love and Light in all we do. I have found Allan Hardman to be very available and urge you to contact him through his website, Joydancer.com. You will be excited to discover there's lots of room for expansion in the New Consciousness. There's a wonderful Place for us all to participate, to create, and express while we grow.

Yours in Peace and Wisdom,

Light

[Light]

Dear Sonomamark, and others who have written:

Thank you for your opinions in response to my curiosity. I have taken to heart the things you said. Of course, we are all in different places, and we all have a lot to learn. Often we make statements which probably seem simplicistic to others, just because that's where we were at the moment. I certainly did not mean to insult anyone's intelligence!

Anyhow, we sure have lots to think about, don't we?

Best regards to all, Light

[MiriamAva]

you go! the secret, the toltec agreements, platitudes schmatitudes, drek. and one doesn't have to be an atheist or agnostic to think so, you just need to use your brain.

[Valley Oak]

What are the original Toltec Agreements?

Edward

~ #3 in Allan Hardman’s "The New Relationship" Series of Talks

NEW AGREEMENTS 1-5:
* "Your nature is Love. You are the source of Love in your life." (CD available)
* "You are not responsible for causing other people's emotional reactions to your reality." (CD available)
* "Being the source of love, you are complete within yourself." (2/7/07)
* "The Truth is more important than the outcome of the Relationship." (2/21/07)
* "True happiness is the result of love coming out of you." (3/7/07)

[jaywilder]

Hi Mark,

Have you had a direct experience of Allan Hardman's "work".... that is what happens in the workshops he does?

Jay

[Light]

Hey all you guys in WaccoBB! I am truly amazed at how much commotion Allan has caused in this discussion forum.

Why is he so threatening to many of you? Heck, if I were you, I'd get to know him and try to understand the real meaning of what he has to say. One sentence can never give the entire message.

Actually, he's such a neat, loving guy. I have yet to meet anyone who didn't like him after they got to know him. There's a saying: He who knows does not argue. So . . . I'm wondering!!!

I have personally argued with Allan many time. But I argue with him, not in public forums. He always wins. Which proves I didn't really know much to begin with. So . . . I challenge you! JOYDANCER.COM. :puteranger2:

[Sonomamark]

Um...

First of all, I don't see any evidence that anyone here is "threatened" by Hardman. There are just some of us who are looking at his claims and slogans and, with little effort, actually, showing them to be hollow and deceptive.

This isn't personal. It doesn't matter to me what kind of person he is. If a person stands up in a crowded public place and makes unsubstantiable, oversimplified claims designed to get people who feel unfulfilled or lonely to look to him for "wisdom", he's going to get attention, which is what he was angling for. Unfortunately for him, some of the attention comes from people who actually think about what he's saying.

I don't know whose saying "he who knows does not argue" is--I've never heard it--but that can only be true if said person doesn't care if people around him/her are being conned by someone selling them what they want to hear. Others--say, me--think that a person should be accountable for his behavior. I couldn't care less if Hardman wants to be a legend in his own mind. When he--or his proxies--starts proclaiming himself a legend in a forum where I'm a member, and he sounds like a medicine show huckster to me, I'm apt to say so. Such are the risks of self-declared "spiritual teachers".

I think it bears saying right about now that no one on this list has EVER made a substantive response to the critiques I and others have levied at Hardman's sloganeering, cartoonlike philosophy-blurbs. Instead, now we get this kind of thing from you, with the implied subtext of oh-you-nasty-people-are-being-mean-to-poor-Alan.

First of all, if Alan wants to defend himself, let him do it and not his entourage. He's happy to post his announcements, so we know he's here. He hasn't fared very well when he has tried to defend his claims, so maybe his new approach is third-party proxy advocacy, but if he doesn't think it's important enough to personally engage those who criticize him, it's not your role to be his sock puppet.

Secondly, let's talk about the issues raised, if you want to. I'm happy to do so, although I've gotta say, if "every time you argue with Allan, he wins", I suspect this is going to be a really short conversation.

I haven't been "mean" or "threatened" in relation to the guy--I've pointed out that the emperor appears in danger of catching cold. When someone's stock in trade is supposed to be "wisdom" but what he says sounds like nonsense, it's perfectly legitimate to point that out. No one is forcing him to market himself the way he does.


Mark

Hey all you guys in WaccoBB! I am truly amazed at how much commotion Allan has caused in this discussion forum.

Why is he so threatening to many of you? Heck, if I were you, I'd get to know him and try to understand the real meaning of what he has to say. One sentence can never give the entire message.

Actually, he's such a neat, loving guy. I have yet to meet anyone who didn't like him after they got to know him. There's a saying: He who knows does not argue. So . . . I'm wondering!!!

I have personally argued with Allan many time. But I argue with him, not in public forums. He always wins. Which proves I didn't really know much to begin with. So . . . I challenge you! JOYDANCER.COM. :puteranger2:

[Light]

Hello, Mark and others who have written . . .

I will be very brief. Frankly, I am tired of reading the same ol' same ol' stuff about Allan and what he teaches. The problem, as I see it, is that Allan teaches the Toltec Path to personal freedom. It is a very advanced teaching introduced in the Western World by Carlos Castaneda and later by Miguel Ruiz (The Four Agreements), Victor Sanchez, and now many other popular authors and teachers.

You really need to start at the very beginning to understand what it is all about, and continue with devoted study and practice. At Allan's lectures, he helps people understand the earlier material, but he is basically discussing the relationship issues we all find ourselves in.

So if this doesn't interest you, why not just skip over it and read about other stuff? What's the big deal? I read lots of things which don't interest me, so I quickly move on to things that do.

Yes, I am one of Allan's followers because I believe he has a lot to offer. Apparently lots of other people do, also, as he has a very large following. But you know, there is something for everyone. To each his own. I wish you all well! Light.

Um...

First of all, I don't see any evidence that anyone here is "threatened" by Hardman. There are just some of us who are looking at his claims and slogans and, with little effort, actually, showing them to be hollow and deceptive.

This isn't personal. It doesn't matter to me what kind of person he is. If a person stands up in a crowded public place and makes unsubstantiable, oversimplified claims designed to get people who feel unfulfilled or lonely to look to him for "wisdom", he's going to get attention, which is what he was angling for. Unfortunately for him, some of the attention comes from people who actually think about what he's saying.

I don't know whose saying "he who knows does not argue" is--I've never heard it--but that can only be true if said person doesn't care if people around him/her are being conned by someone selling them what they want to hear. Others--say, me--think that a person should be accountable for his behavior. I couldn't care less if Hardman wants to be a legend in his own mind. When he--or his proxies--starts proclaiming himself a legend in a forum where I'm a member, and he sounds like a medicine show huckster to me, I'm apt to say so. Such are the risks of self-declared "spiritual teachers".

I think it bears saying right about now that no one on this list has EVER made a substantive response to the critiques I and others have levied at Hardman's sloganeering, cartoonlike philosophy-blurbs. Instead, now we get this kind of thing from you, with the implied subtext of oh-you-nasty-people-are-being-mean-to-poor-Alan.

First of all, if Alan wants to defend himself, let him do it and not his entourage. He's happy to post his announcements, so we know he's here. He hasn't fared very well when he has tried to defend his claims, so maybe his new approach is third-party proxy advocacy, but if he doesn't think it's important enough to personally engage those who criticize him, it's not your role to be his sock puppet.

Secondly, let's talk about the issues raised, if you want to. I'm happy to do so, although I've gotta say, if "every time you argue with Allan, he wins", I suspect this is going to be a really short conversation.

I haven't been "mean" or "threatened" in relation to the guy--I've pointed out that the emperor appears in danger of catching cold. When someone's stock in trade is supposed to be "wisdom" but what he says sounds like nonsense, it's perfectly legitimate to point that out. No one is forcing him to market himself the way he does.


Mark

[Sonomamark]

Light, I didn't start this thread up again. You did, with a sideways crack at those of us who have critiqued Hardman as being "threatened". You have sown, and now you are reaping. If you're "tired of reading" critiques of Hardman, maybe you should stop raising the topic again..or stop reading the thread. Dare I suggest that you have created your own reality?

Further, let's be very clear here. Carlos Castaneda was a fraud and a charlatan, which is well and exhaustively documented. His books were wholecloth fiction, and to the degree that Hardman's "teaching" comes from that, it's bunk. Any claim by anyone that s/he is teaching a "Toltec" path is also a lie, because there is debate among anthropologists who are knowledgeable on the topic as to whether that culture actually existed at all, or was just a mythological creation of the Aztecs. No such culture exists today, or has for centuries, and anyone pretending to "teach their secrets" is talking through his hat. He might as well be claiming to teach "Martian wisdom".

Castaneda, "Don" Miguel Ruiz, and Hardman use/d the pretense of communicating "ancient wisdom" because it's a great marketing angle to middle-class white Americans who carry liberal guilt and tend to romanticize native peoples. That's all. There's a lot of that around: nouveau "schools of Yoga", the burst of "shamanism" during the 90s, the flurry of hedonism masquerading as "tantra" that's been trendy lately, &c. People who want their lives to feel better are grasping at straws, and thinking that because something has been wrapped in "ancient" trappings it is more likely to be valid.

If you think about it, ironically, no one in an ancient society had to contend with the nature of the lives we live now. If any philosophy, practice or training is likely to help us to be happy and fulfilled today, it is one evolved in an urbanized, technological, post-industrial context, not the belief system of small-village agrarians.

Light, people have wonderful warm feelings in all kinds of cults. There is nothing more wonderful than a feeling of belonging and being a part of something. Hardman's schtick doesn't seem particularly harmful--just overclaimed and divorced from reality. The world has certainly seen worse gurus.

But I prefer reality, myself. And I'm going to keep saying so. If you don't want to hear it don't keep the conversation going, or stop reading. After all: you believe that "being the source of love, you are complete within yourself."

Or do you?



Sonomamark

Hello, Mark and others who have written . . .

I will be very brief. Frankly, I am tired of reading the same ol' same ol' stuff about Allan and what he teaches. The problem, as I see it, is that Allan teaches the Toltec Path to personal freedom. It is a very advanced teaching introduced in the Western World by Carlos Castaneda and later by Miguel Ruiz (The Four Agreements), Victor Sanchez, and now many other popular authors and teachers.

You really need to start at the very beginning to understand what it is all about, and continue with devoted study and practice. At Allan's lectures, he helps people understand the earlier material, but he is basically discussing the relationship issues we all find ourselves in.

So if this doesn't interest you, why not just skip over it and read about other stuff? What's the big deal? I read lots of things which don't interest me, so I quickly move on to things that do.

Yes, I am one of Allan's followers because I believe he has a lot to offer. Apparently lots of other people do, also, as he has a very large following. But you know, there is something for everyone. To each his own. I wish you all well! Light.

[Willie Lumplump]

NEW AGREEMENTS 1-5:
* "The Truth is more important than the outcome of the Relationship." (2/21/07)

This attitude isn't likely to get you very far in a marriage. Men in particular like to be "right," and sometimes they will even destroy their marriages just to prove that they are right about something. To say that "The Truth [in capital letters, no less] is more important than the outcome of the Relationship" sounds like a set-up for divorce. No thinking person would deny that truth is important in any relationship, but that's truth with a lower-case "t." Once you get the idea in a marriage that you know The Truth with capital letters, you're already on your way to the courthouse whether you know it or not.

I'd say that it's usually more important to preserve core values than it is a marriage, but further than that I wouldn't go.

[Juggledude]

I'd say that it's usually more important to preserve core values than it is a marriage, but further than that I wouldn't go.

Perhaps "Truth" is one of this person's core values?

seems like a reasonable foundation to build a relationship upon...

Royce

[Neshamah]

To me, being married to someone is the same as having a brother, sister, child, or parent. Certainly it is better to commit to someone who shares your core values, but people change. The commitment should not. A change in values should not dissolve a family, whether it is the bond between parent and child or between husband and wife. That does not mean a parent cannot turn a psychopathic son over to police, but neither should the parent disown the son.

Love is not about sustaining yourself. It is about seeing the innate goodness in someone else. There is always beauty within. Once you have seen it and committed yourself, you should always strive to see it again.


~ Neshamah

[Zeno Swijtink]

We're social animals. We need connection, belonging and approval. You certainly do: you're angling for guru status night and day.

This reminds me of a thread from this Spring, "Does clinginess get an undeserved bad rep?"

According to this NYT article

https://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/06/health/06depe.html

dependent urges might bind the relationship together rather than undermine it.

At the time I wondered whether self-reliance and independency make it harder to form long-term committed relationships.

Or has life become so complicated that self-reliance and independency is a kind of energy conserving strategy; whether with the multiple levels of viewpoints and interests that an aware individual will encounter, not clinging or attaching, but being that self-contained individual is not just so much easier, maybe the only way of life really sustainable without getting crazy?

[Light]

Hello, Neshamah . . . I found your views about marriage and family very inspiring. A permanent Commitment or Marriage might well be considered a very sacred and profoundly inspiring place to be in life which we will want to take very seriously and work hard at maintaining. I agree that dumping people simply because of a disagreement or out of boredom is probably not very wise.

Often, though, a couple will not thoroughly investigate possibilities which can arise after living with someone for awhile. To use a popular expression, sometimes "Shit Happens". This can happen with a spouse as well as a child, or other family relative. We made a commitment to each other as a spouse, and together we (may have) caused a child to be born.

Family dynamics can become very involved, and yes, people do change. I think premarital (or commitment) issues need to be discussed at length before we take on serious responsibilities for others. Many times couples just 'get together' to see what happens. I did this several times, and never again will I make that mistake.

Yes, there is innate goodness in everyone and beauty within each person. But that doesn't mean we need to be with someone for life if we no longer feel a bond of total commitment. Life was meant to be happy, not miserable. That's why I feel there are many times when we will want to consult with an outside person who can help us work things through. Love is who each one of us is. We all deserve to be happy and the more we understand our own Divine Nature, the more love and understanding we will demonstrate to others.

In defense of Allan Hardman, he is all for keeping people together whenever possible, and he shows the kind of love and caring we all need when times get rough. He has never solicited my defense of him or his Teaching, and he is not aware of my writing here, although he will probably read it later. But for those who appreciate really good, common-sense reflection of what is in our hearts, I highly recommend him as a very effective counselor with the highest of spiritual values. He is not out to get rich and exploit people, but he will gratefully accept donations for his work, as he likes to live well, like the rest of us!

Light




quote=Neshamah;41254]To me, being married to someone is the same as having a brother, sister, child, or parent. Certainly it is better to commit to someone who shares your core values, but people change. The commitment should not. A change in values should not dissolve a family, whether it is the bond between parent and child or between husband and wife. That does not mean a parent cannot turn a psychopathic son over to police, but neither should the parent disown the son.

Love is not about sustaining yourself. It is about seeing the innate goodness in someone else. There is always beauty within. Once you have seen it and committed yourself, you should always strive to see it again.


~ Neshamah[/quote]

[Light]

Dear Zeno Swijtink,

Wow, this is certainly a complex issue, isn't it? What works for one couple may not work for another. We are all where we are. I guess we just need to keep searching for what brings real happiness into our lives (before commiting to a permanent relationship) and gradually eliminate what doesn't. Personally, I can't stand to be around needy people all the time. Can you?

Light

This reminds me of a thread from this Spring, "Does clinginess get an undeserved bad rep?"

According to this NYT article

https://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/06/health/06depe.html

dependent urges might bind the relationship together rather than undermine it.

At the time I wondered whether self-reliance and independency make it harder to form long-term committed relationships.

Or has life become so complicated that self-reliance and independency is a kind of energy conserving strategy; whether with the multiple levels of viewpoints and interests that an aware individual will encounter, not clinging or attaching, but being that self-contained individual is not just so much easier, maybe the only way of life really sustainable without getting crazy?

[The Contractor]

Interesting read re: Light and Sonomamark's exchange ... not for substance as it is completely lacking in their posts, however, the dynamic is something I find fascinating. Here, we have the equivalent of a Basketball Team and a Football Team arguing over who won the game. The fact of the matter is there never was a game as the two sports noted are mutually exclusive. Sonomamark is arguing from a rational perspective and Light comes to the show in the form of Spirituality ... and never the twain shall meet.

I do find sonomamark to be the least sympathetic of the two combatants as he employs sarcasm which is exceedingly low brow, presents opinion as fact, offers no proof whatsoever in substantiation of his declared position in the matter ... and that truly is a major defect if assuming a rational position in a discussion. The proposition that Allan poses any significant threat of harm is essentially alarmist rubbish. For dangerous charlatans on a truly grand scale one need look no further than the members of the U.S. Congress ... there resides authentic danger made manifest by utter frauds.

All in all, a total waste of bandwidth as no resolution is possible and no middle ground available for occupancy. The question I have for both Light and Sonomamark is this: Why are you two even engaging in dialogue when there is zero potential for a positive, productive outcome in the matter?