God does not exist v. "I can't know" (Atheism v. Agnosticism)

[Valley Oak]

Here is a fascinating debate on the issue of the non-existence of god, with Gore Vidal participating (he was by far the most interesting part of the debate):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=epn7Q...elated&search=

Anyone care to comment? (after viewing this scintillating, sobering, and eye opening encounter)

[Valley Oak]

Thanks, Clancy. I could reflect on various points you made but the one that sticks out for me the most is that when reason and comfort compete, comfort always wins. Excellent point, even though it's not true 100%. Maybe it's true most of the time, 67% of the time, or even 90% of the time. ;-D
I guess people with that kind of infantile mentality, most people, are wimps and are incapable of accepting life on its terms.

Edward

It's a very big, inexplicable universe we find ourselves in, and the awareness of our own mortality is a terrible burden to bear. Denial is a popular response, so are the various afterlife mythologies.

Agnostism is a reasonable position on the question of whether there is a God or not, but the concept of God gives millions of people some measure of comfort, and when reason or comfort compete, comfort almost always wins.

[Clancy]

I didn't say comfort always wins, I said it almost always wins, and infantile or not, it's very human. I think you expect far too much from people, we're basically talking apes, just waking up to our position in a mysterious, inexplicable universe. The amazing thing is that we do as well as we do given human nature and limitations.

Thanks, Clancy. I could reflect on various points you made but the one that sticks out for me the most is that when reason and comfort compete, comfort always wins. Excellent point, even though it's not true 100%. Maybe it's true most of the time, 67% of the time, or even 90% of the time. ;-D
I guess people with that kind of infantile mentality, most people, are wimps and are incapable of accepting life on its terms.

Edward

[Valley Oak]

Thank you for your enlightening observation. I must say that I agree!

Although remembering the genocide committed by the Germans against Jewish and other people's, the Witch burnings of Salem and the Burning Times in Europe, Rwanda, infanticide, clitorectomies, government terrorism, bloody US coups and military dictatorships throughout Latin America and the rest of the world, the grip on power of the religious right in the US and other nations, abortion clinic bombings and assassinations of doctors, stolen elections, suspension of Habeas Corpus, suspension of due process of law, loss of the Magna Carta, torture, the Spanish Inquisition, Abu Grhaib (not to mention US occupation of Afghanistan and Iraq and new plans to invade Iran), just to name a few human deficiencies, well, quite frankly, it's all still a huge bottle of bitter horse pills to swallow. But I still agree with you. I don't forgive or defend the Nazis, for example, but I think I understand what you are trying to say.

Thanks again,

Edward

I didn't say comfort always wins, I said it almost always wins, and infantile or not, it's very human. I think you expect far too much from people, we're basically talking apes, just waking up to our position in a mysterious, inexplicable universe. The amazing thing is that we do as well as we do given human nature and limitations.

[Clancy]

I'm not defending or forgiving the Nazis either, but the fact that people have committed genocide throughout history, often while claiming to be religious has little or no bearing on the question of whether God exists or not.

I wish there were a category called something like 'spiritually agnostic', that's how I'd like to define myself. Just because we can't prove God exists, that doesn't mean that God (or some other concept we can't even imagine) doesn't exist, and there's lots of evidence that belief in God is beneficial to individuals and society. Myriad studies have shown that people who believe in God tend to live longer, healthier and more satisfying lives, and those who regularly meditate do even better.

Can we prove God exists? No.

Can we prove that believing God exists and living our lives as if the universe supports us is beneficial? Yes.

Thank you for your enlightening observation. I must say that I agree!

Although remembering the genocide committed by the Germans against Jewish and other people's, the Witch burnings of Salem and the Burning Times in Europe, Rwanda, infanticide, clitorectomies, government terrorism, bloody US coups and military dictatorships throughout Latin America and the rest of the world, the grip on power of the religious right in the US and other nations, abortion clinic bombings and assassinations of doctors, stolen elections, suspension of Habeas Corpus, suspension of due process of law, loss of the Magna Carta, torture, the Spanish Inquisition, Abu Grhaib (not to mention US occupation of Afghanistan and Iraq and new plans to invade Iran), just to name a few human deficiencies, well, quite frankly, it's all still a huge bottle of bitter horse pills to swallow. But I still agree with you. I don't forgive or defend the Nazis, for example, but I think I understand what you are trying to say.

Thanks again,

Edward

[ThePhiant]

I'm not defending or forgiving the Nazis either,

that is an interesting lifestyle. Hating the Nazis for the rest of your life.
do you hate the jews too for erecting concentration camps for the Palestinians???
the Israeli's have now modeled their society after the Third Reich, including a fierce Gestapo, separate ID's for Palestinians, demolishing of homes, no rights for Palestinians.
Sieg Heil????????

[mykil]

I am truly sorry, I thought you all where a tad bit brighter than this! Jesus has sent me St Peter to watch over me and to prove to you all there is a god, you can see him for yourself in front of my store everyday I am open. Please come on down and take a peek and a picture with you posing with the Late Great Saint! If I were you all I would start kissing my feet now, I am the only way into heaven as we now it and speak. My storefront is now the pearly gates and no one shall pass without a small donation! The key lies with me! Peace!

[Valley Oak]

Thank you, Mykil, for gifting us with the opportunity of salvation! You will see me shortly, kneeling in front of your store, kissing the feet of Jesus (or is it you?) so that I may enter into the kingdom of heaven (with a small donation to your store along the way). Incidentally, what is the cheapest product you sell?

I also want to give thanks to the ignore list available on Wacco, to which I have included the Phiant. WHOOPEE!

Thank you infinitely,

Edward

I am truly sorry, I thought you all where a tad bit brighter than this! Jesus has sent me St Peter to watch over me and to prove to you all there is a god, you can see him for yourself in front of my store everyday I am open. ...

[AnnaLisaW]

I find it facinating how many people blame faith in a god for the actions of people without real faith. Atrocities are not committed by people who have a deep abiding faith in God. They are committed by people who have used a warped view of God as an excuse to act out fear, greed or anger. The leaders of hate groups hide their lack of faith in self-righteousness that would never have been condoned by Jesus, Moses, Mohammed, Buddha or any other great religious leader I have studied.
Religion is a human institution. God has no need of it.
Sincerely, AnnaLisa

[ThePhiant]

LMFAO
put some glasses on him and it will even look like you!!!
Is the gate keeper for sale???

[ThePhiant]

well then, does God have any need for great religious leaders???

I find it facinating how many people blame faith in a god for the actions of people without real faith. Atrocities are not committed by people who have a deep abiding faith in God. They are committed by people who have used a warped view of God as an excuse to act out fear, greed or anger. The leaders of hate groups hide their lack of faith in self-righteousness that would never have been condoned by Jesus, Moses, Mohammed, Buddha or any other great religious leader I have studied.
Religion is a human institution. God has no need of it.
Sincerely, AnnaLisa

[mykil]

I myself truly believe there is god. Not there is a god, just there is god! AS my world came tumbling down a number of years ago, when the disbelief that Christianity had led me astray and most likely was full of… I turned to my own self and started to absorb all I could take on about myself, my true beliefs, my environment, and the world around ME! Thus bringing in my own reality as I know it today. Along the way I have tried to meditate what the true lessons of the whole GOD ideas were all about. Thinking on this subject probably way more than one should I imagine, I have come to my own conclusions. I have given up on reading any material that might cloud my own judgments or intrude on any thought pattern that may arouse from the writings, reading, and teachings that I am trying to disregard and cleanse my soul, mind, brain and thought pattern of.

I pretty much have come to the conclusion WE ARE LOVE! LOVE IS GOD! GOD IS WE! I believe we all know everything there is to know about everything between us all. WE ARE ONE! WE might be subject to other worldly, universal., or even galaxies integrations, inspirations or even belong to a whole body in itself, but for the most we are we and alone as one collective. What a ride!

Praying is a good thing I suppose, at least in cleanses the soul, and releases anger, fear, remorse. As I was at Harbin over the weekend meditating I came to another semi conclusion. I was reflecting in the warm pool on my thoughts wondering more around god. As I was thinking about holy water and blessings of the waters such as the warm pool and other things in life. I thought it might not be a good idea for everyone to bless things. Only people with pure thoughts should bless things. If we ourselves try to bless things, our DNA, which I believe is exported in every thought we have, might be doing more harm than good. I believe it all starts from the thoughts and emits from our true selves. What I mean is every ounce of flesh on our body is a thought. DNA emitted from our brain. This is the way we see ourselves and this is the way we are. Our god is all around us all, this is plain to see, easy to feel. It is a residue emitted form each and every thought each and every one of us has, GOD KNOWS ALL! Yeah I’m crazy!!! PEACE!!! Kind of a rambling of the brain but I think you might get where I am coming from.

[Sonomamark]

I am sure you meant this sincerely, AnnaLisa, but I have to say this is profoundly naive. Thousands of atrocities across the course of history have been committed by people with a deep abiding faith in God. They use that faith to excuse and justify their atrocities. It has nothing to do with Jesus, or Mohammad, or Buddha, or any of the other historical figures who have been blown up into fairy tales and about the reality of whom we know practically nothing. God is an imaginary Rohrschach blot, onto which people can project whatever they wish.

It would be nice to live in a world where what you say is true. But neither you nor I live in that world.

"God" is a human institution. We invent deities to serve our purposes. Typically, to amass power, feel superior, and justify acting on our impulses.


Sonomamark

I find it facinating how many people blame faith in a god for the actions of people without real faith. Atrocities are not committed by people who have a deep abiding faith in God. They are committed by people who have used a warped view of God as an excuse to act out fear, greed or anger. The leaders of hate groups hide their lack of faith in self-righteousness that would never have been condoned by Jesus, Moses, Mohammed, Buddha or any other great religious leader I have studied.
Religion is a human institution. God has no need of it.
Sincerely, AnnaLisa

[Valley Oak]

Touché!

I am sure you meant this sincerely, AnnaLisa, but I have to say this is profoundly naive. Thousands of atrocities across the course of history have been committed by people with a deep abiding faith in God. They use that faith to excuse and justify their atrocities. It has nothing to do with Jesus, or Mohammad, or Buddha, or any of the other historical figures who have been blown up into fairy tales and about the reality of whom we know practically nothing. God is an imaginary Rohrschach blot, onto which people can project whatever they wish.

It would be nice to live in a world where what you say is true. But neither you nor I live in that world.

"God" is a human institution. We invent deities to serve our purposes. Typically, to amass power, feel superior, and justify acting on our impulses.


Sonomamark

[AnnaLisaW]

Sonomamark wrote:
"...Thousands of atrocities across the course of history have been committed by people with a deep abiding faith in God. They use that faith to excuse and justify their atrocities."

"Deep abiding FAITH in God" my foot! I spent considerable time with in conversation with and historical studies of these monsters. They talk a good story, but when it comes down to it, the only thing they have is fear, not faith. They hide their lack of faith by feeding the fear of those around them and leading them against an imaginary enemy. (Like Dubya and the Terrorists?) They count themselves as righteous based on the number of frightened fools they command.

-ALW

[Braggi]

I think both AnnaLisa and SonomaMark are correct. AnnaLisa mostly about the leaders and SonomaMark mostly about the foot soldiers who did the actual "work."

I opened a searchable online "Bible" and plucked out these two passages:

===King James Version===
Genesis 14:20
And blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand. And he gave him tithes of all.
Deuteronomy 20:14
But the women, and the little ones, and the cattle, and all that is in the city, even all the spoil thereof, shalt thou take unto thyself; and thou shalt eat the spoil of thine enemies, which the LORD thy God hath given thee.
====end quote=====

These particular passages speak to the values of the author(s). Many followers of the patriarchal religions believe their particular "scriptures" were written by "God." In these passages "God" gives permission to take the spoils of war which, again, exposes the values of the author(s). If you truly believe your God has given permission or even the command to take the valuables of anyone defined as "enemies" (assuming you've killed the grown men) we have clearly given people of "faith" reason to go to war and kill and steal.

History is filled, almost nonstop, since "the Beginning," with people who felt justified in their atrocities based on their "scriptures."

Blessings,

-Jeff

[Valley Oak]

Touché! Touché!

Edward

I think both AnnaLisa and SonomaMark are correct. AnnaLisa mostly about the leaders and SonomaMark mostly about the foot soldiers who did the actual "work."

I opened a searchable online "Bible" and plucked out these two passages:

===King James Version===
Genesis 14:20
And blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand. And he gave him tithes of all.
Deuteronomy 20:14
But the women, and the little ones, and the cattle, and all that is in the city, even all the spoil thereof, shalt thou take unto thyself; and thou shalt eat the spoil of thine enemies, which the LORD thy God hath given thee.
====end quote=====

These particular passages speak to the values of the author(s). Many followers of the patriarchal religions believe their particular "scriptures" were written by "God." In these passages "God" gives permission to take the spoils of war which, again, exposes the values of the author(s). If you truly believe your God has given permission or even the command to take the valuables of anyone defined as "enemies" (assuming you've killed the grown men) we have clearly given people of "faith" reason to go to war and kill and steal.

History is filled, almost nonstop, since "the Beginning," with people who felt justified in their atrocities based on their "scriptures."

Blessings,

-Jeff

[mykil]

I think in today’s society that all of the above in void of any meaning what so ever. Everything you guys are talking about is pre TV. Pre Television. Pre Stereo, Pre microwave. That there might have been a god to take up most of the time people had on there hands to sooth there worries cause they had no TV to take their minds off of everyday life is the only explanation that is worthy of talking about. As soon as the third world countries catch up with all the wiring and cables they need to be able to watch, listen, and type the way we do, all the religions will be thrown out the window and forgotten about. It might be stuck in the back of a few diehards’ brains simmering and waiting till the electricity goes out on a stormy night, but I don’t feel “hell freezing over” will not be in the script of the future. More likely it might sound like “you had better go to bed or the computer nerds will erase your hard drive for being up so late”. Or better yet “Thou shall not commit adultery without sweeping the room for hidden mini cam transmitters”, might be one of the new Ten Commandments.

I might go to church if ever decide to make it a little more appropriate and change a few of the rule of engagement. They might start by preaching about something along the lines GOD LOVES A CLEAN ENVIRONMENT instead of the old GODLINESS IS CLEANLINESS. Or could you ever imagine making church more fun by maybe choosing a new god every week. Just pick someone out of the crown and say “you are our god for the week”. Talk about an ego booster!

[Braggi]

Nonsense Mykil,

The fundies use technology with the best of 'em. Modern times have only made them more resolute and given them more power. I wish you were right.

-Jeff

[mykil]

I strongly dissagree Jeff; As soon as they get settled in and there children start acting like our children, sitting around getting fat and lazy, our world will start to see huge changes! I wish I was wrong. I see nothing in our future that states otherwise.

Nonsense Mykil,

The fundies use technology with the best of 'em. Modern times have only made them more resolute and given them more power. I wish you were right.

-Jeff

[Braggi]

Mykil,
You totally don't get it. I'm not talking about "them." I'm talking about "us" (U.S.).

https://religiousfreaks.com/2006/07/...to-jesus-camp/ (Roble is going to like this one)

-Jeff

[Clancy]

Interestingly, most christian churches in the US were against the invasion of Iraq;
https://www.ncccusa.org/news/02news83.html

Even Bush's own church opposed it and called it "unjust and immoral"
https://www.theledger.com/apps/pbcs....511120368/1004

[AnnaLisaW]

Interestingly, most christian churches in the US were against the invasion of Iraq;
https://www.ncccusa.org/news/02news83.html

Even Bush's own church opposed it and called it "unjust and immoral"
https://www.theledger.com/apps/pbcs....511120368/1004

Cool. I really liked Jesus of Nazareth's teachings. It's good to hear when his supposed followers really follow his teachings.

[Valley Oak]

We saw the movie, "Jesus Camp," at home. It was good even though it was slow moving and not hard-hitting enough, in my opinion.

The movie, "Borat," in a church revival scene that lasts only a few minutes says more than Jesus camp does in some ways by pointing out important aspects of U.S. religious and political culture. It's worth your while to rewind that scene three or four times to fully capture what "Borat" is trying to reveal in that scene. Almost every shot, word, and personage in that scene is crucial to understanding the larger canvass.

Edward

Mykil,
You totally don't get it. I'm not talking about "them." I'm talking about "us" (U.S.).

https://religiousfreaks.com/2006/07/...to-jesus-camp/ (Roble is going to like this one)

-Jeff

[Sonomamark]

Jeff, thanks for the perspective and effort to bring disparate points together, but I don't think history supports the distinction.
I grant that there are plenty of examples of cynical leaders exploiting the ignorant belief of their followers to incite evil acts, but very often the leaders of atrocities, not just their foot soldiers, have themselves been filled with faith and a sense of relationship with God. Examples: Torquemada, Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, the various military leaders of the Crusades, Osama bin Laden, Moshe Dayan, Menachem Begin, David Ben-Gurion, Moqtada al-Sadr, the Ayatollah Khomenei and a whole slew of Popes including Pius XII ("Hitler's Pope"), the promulgators of the Crusades and the slaughterers of "heretics" such as Huguenots, Cathars, Albigensians, Protestants and anyone else who seemed inconvenient at the time.

Fanatical Hindus slaughter Muslims in Kashmir, who slaughter them right back. Fanatical Jews slaughter Muslims, and vice versa, at the goading of leaders who certainly seem to be filled with conviction that their flavor of Big Invisible Dude is calling the shots. The beat goes on, and nobody gets out clean: written history is spotty, but there's enough of it, added to archaeology, to lay a bunch of murder at the feet of Pagans, too. Mormons did their share of killing back in the 19th century, and they're a brand-new religion.

Oh, lest we fall into romantic Rousseau's trap, let's not forget Aztecs and Mayans, helping the sun up each morning with a heapin' helpin' o' hemorrhagin' hearts. Micronesian ancestor-worshipping cannibals, gaining power in the spirit world with each swallowed eyeball. Or the Anasazi--cannibalism too. Volcano-hurling Polynesians. Jonestown.

The idea that not a single one of the instigators of all of these awful actions--every last one--didn't "really" have "faith in God" is a bit of a stretch, isn't it?

What I hear is that AnnaLisa really, really doesn't want to believe that a person with "faith in God" is capable of such things. But again: we don't live in that world. Since God is something we make up, it can be whatever we want it to be. She wants hers to be very, very nice. Others don't invent theirs quite so warm and fuzzy--actually, Jeff, the OT quotes you pulled were pretty mild compared to some that are available.

We live in a world where parents who think their children are "possessed" starve and abuse them to death out of faith in their God. Where millions of evangelical Christians right here in the US of A are praying for apocalyptic war in the Middle East because they think that's necessary for their God to come back. Where people blow themselves and others up out of fanatical faith in their God.

People do these things. They commit these acts for God, out of genuine, insane belief that an invisible, all-powerful entity actually wants them to commit them.

Which is why I conclude we're well done with gods. At this point in history, a good argument can be made that humanity's greatest enemy is God: the mythology that keeps on killing.



Mark

I think both AnnaLisa and SonomaMark are correct. AnnaLisa mostly about the leaders and SonomaMark mostly about the foot soldiers who did the actual "work."

I opened a searchable online "Bible" and plucked out these two passages:

===King James Version===
Genesis 14:20
And blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand. And he gave him tithes of all.
Deuteronomy 20:14
But the women, and the little ones, and the cattle, and all that is in the city, even all the spoil thereof, shalt thou take unto thyself; and thou shalt eat the spoil of thine enemies, which the LORD thy God hath given thee.
====end quote=====

These particular passages speak to the values of the author(s). Many followers of the patriarchal religions believe their particular "scriptures" were written by "God." In these passages "God" gives permission to take the spoils of war which, again, exposes the values of the author(s). If you truly believe your God has given permission or even the command to take the valuables of anyone defined as "enemies" (assuming you've killed the grown men) we have clearly given people of "faith" reason to go to war and kill and steal.

History is filled, almost nonstop, since "the Beginning," with people who felt justified in their atrocities based on their "scriptures."

Blessings,

-Jeff

[Clancy]

Everything you say is true, but your conclusion sounds like you are asserting that we wouldn't be so obscenely violent if so many of us didn't believe in God, and I don't see how you reached that conclusion. It's possible that we'd be even more violent without the social injunctions against it, like the golden rule, that comes with most if not all religions.

People do these things. They commit these acts for God, out of genuine, insane belief that an invisible, all-powerful entity actually wants them to commit them.

Which is why I conclude we're well done with gods. At this point in history, a good argument can be made that humanity's greatest enemy is God: the mythology that keeps on killing.

[Valley Oak]

Mark, if you haven't written any books yet, you should start. I will be one of your first readers.

Thanks for your well informed perspective,

Edward

Jeff, thanks for the perspective and effort to bring disparate points together, but I don't think history supports the distinction. ...

[Sonomamark]

First of all, thanks, Roble...but I'm not sure everyone else is ready to be quite that depressed, yet.

Clancy, I do believe that humans would be less obscenely violent if they were more rational. In fact, the "Age of Reason"--one of the less violent periods of European history, generally speaking, though not yet up to speed on the racial-equality principle-- was basically a reaction to the horrors of the senseless centuries of religious slaughter that had preceded them. It wasn't completely peaceful, but by comparison to times both previous and subsequent, it wasn't half bad. And often, when there was war, it was over principles of uplifting humanity, instead of the greed, hatred and chauvinism that are the prime movers of war now, and were in the Middle Ages.

We are leaving the Age of Reason now--the last crumbs of it will fall away with the death of the Boomers. The generation of the 60s threw the baby out with the bathwater by rejecting reason in favor of wacky ideologies and superstition just because Mom and Dad were secular reasoning types and the world was still filled with injustice: clearly, reason had to go.

People tend to believe the right-wing myth that the 1950s were a time of big Christian dominance and "family values". The emphasis on normality and domesticity was certainly true--pretty much every family in the country had seen its young men shipped across the world to shoot and get shot at, and that will make you want a little downtime pretty quickly.

But church attendance was far lower than it is now in the 1950s. Most people were registered Democrats--but not fanatical about it, they liked Ike-- and they supported labor, fairness and moderation. Thoughtful, informed, reasonable people dominated the national discussion, and when someone went over the edge (...say, Joe McCarthy), the public abandoned him (it was always a him in those days). When it was really rubbed in their faces, most acknowledged that the racial inequality in the country was wrong--if they hadn't, the civil rights movement never would have gotten anywhere. Being reasonable and reasoning was a virtue.

Today, the likes of Pat Robertson and Rush Limbaugh and Bill O'Reilly, instead of being shunned into the twilight fringe like the John Birchers and the KKK of the 50s, command audiences of many millions. People dope themselves up on nonsense like "documentaries" about ghosts on the Discovery Channel. Critical thinking is out the window.

Religion is the enemy of reason. It demands that adherents believe things which are patently silly to believe--and typically encourages as much ignorance as possible so they won't start connecting the dots.

Did you know that well less than 50% of the populations of Spain and Italy now consider themselves Catholic? You know why? I'll tell you: education.

You have to be ignorant to be religious. You have to be actively willing to dismiss what humanity's accumulated knowledge can now tell us about the nature of the Universe, and believe in things which the overwhelming preponderance of evidence shows not only aren't real, but cannot be real.

Now, all this said, the question remains, when religion is dispensed with, of how to fill the void that it leaves behind. All cultures have religions, so clearly, they fill a need. Speaking personally, I can say that it's hard to have a sense of there being much of a point to life when looking at it clearly: I am an accidental being, none of the works of whom can possibly matter in the Grand Scheme of Things. I will live for an eyeblink of time on a teeny salt mudball whirling at the edge of a nondescript galaxy in a Universe which contains more galaxies than the Milky Way does stars.

The extraordinary evolutionary step of humans is our capacity to use our neocortexes to visualize the possible future outcomes of our various potential actions: to anticipate, to imagine. This allows us to strategize what we choose to do based on our predictions of the outcome as informed by past experience, which is commonly called "intelligence".

That's extremely powerful, and also a curse. Many of those potential outcomes are fatal, and unlike all the other critters out there, we're not just instinctively shying away from death, we know we're going to die. That knowledge could, in principle, completely paralyze us, render us incapable of any action for fear of what the outcome might be.

In the short term, I believe this is why we evolved a sense of humor, a universal human trait. Humor takes the pressure out of scary things. Look at what we laugh at: things that scare us and make us uncomfortable. Humiliation. Stupidity. Sex. Bodily injury. Death.

But in a broader sense, being able to imagine the future waves the what's the damned point question in front of us all. I believe this is why we have an evolutionary predilection for religiosity. We have a deep need to believe that there is something hardwired into the Universe that will make it all work out okay in the end. Having a Big Invisible Friend that is going to usher us into Happyland or recycle us into a Better Next Life or bring us Good Things if we are just Good Enough is a pretty natural thing to want, especially when we spend our first 10+ years looking up to parents from whom we expect exactly the same things.

Far-ranging post, Clancy, but short version: I see no evidence that religious injunctions against violence have led to less violence. This is the most religious industrialized nation on Earth, and we are armed to the teeth, violent as hell, and go to war at the drop of a hat.


Mark

Everything you say is true, but your conclusion sounds like you are asserting that we wouldn't be so obscenely violent if so many of us didn't believe in God, and I don't see how you reached that conclusion. It's possible that we'd be even more violent without the social injunctions against it, like the golden rule, that comes with most if not all religions.

[ThePhiant]

Mark

that's quite some words, Mark
so let's stick to the rational part, even though I forget if you are allowed to answer any body like me questioning you.

so there is this lifeforce in me, I don't know where it comes from and I don't know where it goes when I die.
you as a rational man can you explain to me what it is ?
how does it work?
I'll stick to this Q for now

[Sonomamark]

Just to be clear with everyone, I see that ThePhiant has replied to my post, but I have that person on my Ignore list--which I must say is a splendid feature, Barry--and do not see its posts. Thus, no response.


SM