ThePhiant and Internet Trolls

[Barry]

Regarding the recent posts on the Pussy Controversy thread about ThePhiant:

...
every one of your [ThePhiant] posts that i have ever read is just attacking people, or making fun of them for something stupid, or just makes little to no sense!!! you are the one sensationalizing. what is your purpose here???? to piss off as many people as possible, and start as many arguments as possible? i have yet to hear a point from you that rings with any validity.
...
you've proven to me that you're just here to argue with people (in an obnoxiously cocky way, i might add). i for one will not be reading ANY more of your posts........much less replying to them, and i hope others here will do the same.

Hey, umphreak (and all);

I've only recently learned what a troll is, and am still learning the wisdom of the adage "Please don't feed the troll". It's sometimes hard to refrain from responding to them, but nowadays I take great pleasure in imagining their uncomfortable squirming as their various attempts to push my buttons receive no response. That's the best revenge!

Dixon

I have to agree. ThePhiant is a troll ("someone who intentionally posts derogatory or otherwise inflammatory messages about sensitive topics in an established online community such as an online discussion forum to bait users into responding"). Also see I strongly encourage that everybody not respond to ThePhiant's posts on any thread. "Her" sole motivation here is to argue and otherwise provoke people. She will do her best to get a response from somebody as her recent reply to Dixon shows:

Yo Dixie,

I'm so flattered that your highness is responding to a thread started by me, even though I hear you still carry some resentment about those times I had to set you straight, and even though you use your passive aggressiveness to give me a backhanded compliment, I don't think you should beat your self up and consider your self a troll.
just because your misogynist view of the world makes you lash out at people, that doesn't mean you are rotten to the core.
in your mind you are an atheist Deity, now if that isn't something to be proud of, Hell, what is?

your LuLu

I have tried to ban her but she figured out a way to get back in. I then welcomed her back and urged her to forgo her ways and be positive. Unfortunately she has continued her pattern of slyly doing whatever she can to provoke people.

This is a common internet phenomenon. And the best way to deal with it is to , that is, don't reply!

If you are moved to reply to ThePhiant anyway, please post your reply in the Censored and Un-Censored category. I also welcome ThePhiant to post there as well.

You can set the system to suppress her posts in your digest and online by adding her to your "ignore list". See how to do that here.

Thanks for your cooperation!

Barry

[ThePhiant]

so now it isn't freedom of speech, but freedom of response that is on the line
isn't that interesting
now if ThePhiant didn't have any one thing to say, I guess nobody would be offended
Barry, you for one, condone (and encourage?) unprovoked namecalling eg Umphreak, Vettopet and even Dixon too but are offended at my words?
I'm just the dog that every one likes to kick when it barks. because it is so loud
but dogs bark for a reason, even baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaad dogs

[terriann]

Thanks, Barry. I'm one step ahead of you. I'm familiar with this sort and had already decided there would be no point in responding. That would only get me more of the same. I have better ways to spend my community currency: dialogging with people who know how to participate in genuine relationship.

I feel a deep appreciation for your attentive and laser-clear monitoring.
--Terriann

[AnnaLisaW]

....You can set the system to suppress her posts in your digest and online by adding her to your "ignore list". See how to do that here.
Thanks for your cooperation!
Barry

Dear Barry,
I didn't realize there was such a feature. Thank-you for giving us the freedom to decide for ourselves what type of comments we would like to read.

[nurturetruth]

Just returned from a 3 week retreat pretty much and "updating/playing catch up" with the community.

Yes, thank you AnnaLisa your comment !

Thank-you for giving us the freedom to decide for ourselves what type of comments we would like to read.

I feel it is very empowering to be able to decide for ourselves whether or not we wish to communicate with or even read /respond to someone elses comments. I am grateful for the ignore option, grateful for the censorshipship category and remain very grateful for freedom of speech and freedom of choice.





"Choice: the magic of freedom"

[Sara S]

Yes, yes, yes! I had gotten quite enough of the nasty egotism of this person awhile back, and used the "ignore" feature for (so far) the only time, and I was delighted to skip those posts.

I did see, though, as a quote in someone else's post, the one saying that the "real" Phiant had died; I thought "right."

Permit me to doubt.

[decterlove]

Now the trick is to keep this thread current enough on the first page so newcomers don't get taken in and hole cycle doesn't begin again. Windy today! Hope nobody o'd on tryptophan yesterday. Happy Black Friday Everybody!

[jborges3]

A plan to keep bumping this thread would annoy me more than ThePhiant ever did.

Each Wacco posting clearly says who made it, so if you don't like ThePhiant then don't read her posts or block her and please stop the endless complaining and name calling.

[Willie Lumplump]

A plan to keep bumping this thread would annoy me more than ThePhiant ever did.

Each Wacco posting clearly says who made it, so if you don't like ThePhiant then don't read her posts or block her and please stop the endless complaining and name calling.

I understand this opinion and even sympathize with it to a certain extent. However, I do see a problem: It's reasonable to assume that newcomers seeing the bb for the first time will read over the posts to get an idea of what the atmosphere is like. If they like what they read, they might be inclined to join, and the community will grow. However, if they read posts by a malicious, cackling hyena, they might well be dissuaded. Many first-time viewers might see no reason to expose themselves to such treatment and think it easier just to join some other forum.

For the reason that I just stated (among others), I don't believe that ignoring the problem is a good idea. However, I do agree with jborges that endless complaining is waste of time. The question is, "Are there valid alternatives?" I see three: (1) Delete all malicious posts as promptly as possible. If Barry needs help, he could delegate deleting authority to a few trusted members. (2) Quarantine malicious posters by transferring their messages to "censored" or some other category as promptly as possible. Again, if Barry needed help, I'm sure he could find some members willing to help him. (3) Boot out the malicious posters. If they come back under a different name, boot them out again. And again. After all, how long does it take to ban somebody? One minute? Two minutes?

Wacco members are a very diverse lot with many talents and resources, and we call ourselves a community. Why a reasonably small, tight-knit, resourceful community can't come together to solve this trolling problem is a great mystery to me. Perhaps for some reason not apparent to me now the problem actually is insolvable. But I absolutely cannot imagine what reason there might be for not trying. If somebody knows of such a reason, I'd be very grateful if they would post it here so we all could see it.

[shellebelle]

I am new and I appreciated this thread. I immediately placed the person on ignore. Maybe just maybe Barry could place the person on everyone new's ignore list and then if you want to see their notes you can unignore them.

[Zeno Swijtink]

The question is, "Are there valid alternatives?" I see three: (1) Delete all malicious posts as promptly as possible. If Barry needs help, he could delegate deleting authority to a few trusted members. (2) Quarantine malicious posters by transferring their messages to "censored" or some other category as promptly as possible. Again, if Barry needed help, I'm sure he could find some members willing to help him. (3) Boot out the malicious posters. If they come back under a different name, boot them out again. And again. After all, how long does it take to ban somebody? One minute? Two minutes?

Wacco members are a very diverse lot with many talents and resources, and we call ourselves a community. Why a reasonably small, tight-knit, resourceful community can't come together to solve this trolling problem is a great mystery to me. Perhaps for some reason not apparent to me now the problem actually is insolvable. But I absolutely cannot imagine what reason there might be for not trying. If somebody knows of such a reason, I'd be very grateful if they would post it here so we all could see it.

Before you joined the list we had a discussion about this!

My position is that "malicious" is in the eye of the beholder. You may be sympathetic to this opinion since you have been accused of trolling yourself.

I think the tools available (the "Ignore" button and the "Censored and Un-censored" category where Barry can move treads to) suffice.

[Braggi]

Before you joined the list we had a discussion about this! ...

I disagree!!! There were many discussions.

If ten people complain about a person's posts, then the person gets thrown out by the moderator, then 100 people complain the person was thrown out, what is a good old moderator to do?

The ignore button is a hot feature and easy to use.

Banning someone is hard to do.

-Jeff

[decterlove]

"If ten people complain about a person's posts, then the person gets thrown out by the moderator, then 100 people complain the person was thrown out, what is a good old moderator to do?"

I agree with Braggi here. It just gets a little tricky at times and there's a lot of grey area. And I think there is a subtle difference as well between blatant intentional trolling and reactive personal attacks or flaming.

There are many hot topics that arise on Wacco and often opinions are strong and middle ground hard to find. It is natural for some flaming and personal attacks to occur in the course of heated debate. It is a fallacious argument---ad hominen attack---but none the less a very popular one and difficult to avoid when tempers flare up.

TP is clearly more guilty of consistently pushing the limits and often flagrantly violatiing the basic rules of bulletin behavior and I think deserves whatever consequences are meted out at this point. But even TPs' ratio of bad to good is maybe 65 to 35 as far as I can see. It's just that he's insisted on making himself a chronic problem in this regard I suppose out of a basic deeply compulsive need to confront and get lots of attention.

Willie's colorful descriptive phrases such as "a malicious, cackling hyena" are also personal attacks and while somewhat less frequently also utilizes the Ad Hominen attack on a very regular basis and should know better as he probably has more of a formal educational training in fallacious argument than most of us may have.

Amazing we're still talking about this....at this point I think the simple less than perfect applications such as the ignore buttons may be the best. I suspect it's just one of those things in life that can't be perfectly "fixed" and just needs to be glued back on and watched till it inevitably falls off again.

I can't help but wonder if there's anything deeper to be discovered in all of this. Has anybody learned anything particularly useful from this extended inquiry yet?

[Zeno Swijtink]

/snip/ I can't help but wonder if there's anything deeper to be discovered in all of this. Has anybody learned anything particularly useful from this extended inquiry yet?

I became in fact quite fond of The Phiant (may she rest in peace) as she had quite a talent in deflating highfalutinisms.

I once received a private message from her that was quite sweet and in which she was sensitive to the cancer treatment I am going through.

Ironic to think that she was dying of breast cancer when she wrote me the aside!

So the useful thing I learned was about the contrast between a private and a public stand.

[AnnaLisaW]

I became in fact quite fond of The Phiant (may she rest in peace) as she had quite a talent in deflating highfalutinisms.

I once received a private message from her that was quite sweet ...

I too, found that her private posts could be sweet and gentle. This is not uncommon in obnoxious people. I have a sweet and gentle side and have also been accused of trolling. I also know people who are this way in person. They are usually overly sensitive and so wrapped up in their own woes that they do not realize the effect their words have on others. This means I will walk away or use my ignore button as needed and I will do my best to become aware of when I am acting like a troll.
AnnaLisa
(I think there is a little troll in all of us.)

[nurturetruth]

I too have had the same experience with my many exchanges in private emails with "TP"....

the sensitivity , genuine concern and compassion (also passed along helpful knowledge) that was offered /shown to me in regards to my health and my overcoming potential cancer.

there was definitely a difference between what type of character the phiant portrayed online versus in private.

and i very much appreciate your comments AnnaLisa and Zeno...

it feels good to know compassion does exist (for ourselves and others) in this community!

I became in fact quite fond of The Phiant (may she rest in peace)

I once received a private message from her that was quite sweet and in which she was sensitive to the cancer treatment I am going through.

Ironic to think that she was dying of breast cancer when she wrote me the aside!

So the useful thing I learned was about the contrast between a private and a public stand.

[Willie Lumplump]

Before you joined the list we had a discussion about this!

My position is that "malicious" is in the eye of the beholder. You may be sympathetic to this opinion since you have been accused of trolling yourself.

I think the tools available (the "Ignore" button and the "Censored and Un-censored" category where Barry can move treads to) suffice.

If "malicious" is in the eye of the beholder, it's likely because we have never defined the term precisely enough for our purposes. "Malicious" should be whatever fits the definition of "malicious," and it might take a page or two to provide a workable operational definition. If this had been done before I joined, I wouldn't have been accused of trolling. I might well have been accused--fairly perhaps--of being obnoxious or insensitive, but not of being a troll.

[Willie Lumplump]

If ten people complain about a person's posts, then the person gets thrown out by the moderator, then 100 people complain the person was thrown out, what is a good old moderator to do?

This is exactly why it's important for a group leader to get people's buy-in before instituting any revolutionary reforms. And how do you get buy-in? By making people a part of the reform process from the very beginning. It seems to me that this process is a central concept of democracy and community. It troubles me that we, as Americans, seem so unaware of it.

Banning someone is hard to do.-Jeff

All it takes is the stroke of a key.

[Valley Oak]

I looked up the terms online at:
www.merriam-webster.com

malicious:
: given to, marked by, or arising from malice

Therefore, it is necessary to look up the term "malice:"

malice
mal·ice
Pronunciation:
\'ma-l?s\
Function:
noun
Etymology:
Middle English, from Anglo-French, from Latin malitia, from malus bad
Date:
14th century

1 : desire to cause pain, injury, or distress to another 2 : intent to commit an unlawful act or cause harm without legal justification or excuse
synonyms malice, malevolence, ill will, spite, malignity, spleen, grudge mean the desire to see another experience pain, injury, or distress. malice implies a deep-seated often unexplainable desire to see another suffer . malevolence suggests a bitter persistent hatred that is likely to be expressed in malicious conduct . ill will implies a feeling of antipathy of limited duration . spite implies petty feelings of envy and resentment that are often expressed in small harassments . malignity implies deep passion and relentlessness . spleen suggests the wrathful release of latent spite or persistent malice . grudge implies a harbored feeling of resentment or ill will that seeks satisfaction .

Edward

If "malicious" is in the eye of the beholder, it's likely because we have never defined the term precisely enough for our purposes. "Malicious" should be whatever fits the definition of "malicious," and it might take a page or two to provide a workable operational definition. If this had been done before I joined, I wouldn't have been accused of trolling. I might well have been accused--fairly perhaps--of being obnoxious or insensitive, but not of being a troll.

[shellebelle]

But even definitions are up for interpretation. So maybe the key is that everyone accept that their interpretation is right for them - and not necessarily right for someone else.

I have heard a saying "What makes you uncomfortable is a growth opportunity."

It also reminds me of an old child joke"Why do elephants wear tennies shoes?" because ninies are too small and elevenies are too large. Its the same with life not everything fits everyone and growth is accepting this.

And just one more that I heard recently (I think maybe from Tut or The Secret or something like that) - this isn't quite accurate but you'll get the idea; people are like spices. Its fun to have a nice assortment on hand but really your apple pie has no need for thyme. Do you throw out your thyme or save it for another recipe. What doesn't work in todays plans may be very beneficial in another recipe. So people like spices are wonderful in an assortment - lots of color and flavor but not every recipe needs every spice ad not every one of your life recipes includes every one of your associates.

If "malicious" is in the eye of the beholder, it's likely because we have never defined the term precisely enough for our purposes. "Malicious" should be whatever fits the definition of "malicious," and it might take a page or two to provide a workable operational definition. If this had been done before I joined, I wouldn't have been accused of trolling. I might well have been accused--fairly perhaps--of being obnoxious or insensitive, but not of being a troll.

[Zeno Swijtink]

If "malicious" is in the eye of the beholder, it's likely because we have never defined the term precisely enough for our purposes. "Malicious" should be whatever fits the definition of "malicious," and it might take a page or two to provide a workable operational definition. If this had been done before I joined, I wouldn't have been accused of trolling. I might well have been accused--fairly perhaps--of being obnoxious or insensitive, but not of being a troll.

Any word that takes two pages to define does not have an intersubjective use. The two pages would give a theory of maliciousness, not a definition.

Even if a word has a simple definition it does not mean that its application is not subjective, eg "delicious." "Highly pleasant to the taste" would be an operational definition.

This relates to Paul and Elder's Three Categories of Questions:

https://www.criticalthinking.org/art...stinctions.cfm

PS How is your course on the the aims and methods of science coming along?

[shellebelle]

Oh yeh and these terms mean you are determining someone else's heart and intentions - hmmmm - so unless someone says I am doing this maliciously its unfair to make that judgment - right?

I looked up the terms online at:
www.merriam-webster.com

malicious:
: given to, marked by, or arising from malice

Therefore, it is necessary to look up the term "malice:"

malice
mal·ice
Pronunciation:
\'ma-l?s\
Function:
noun
Etymology:
Middle English, from Anglo-French, from Latin malitia, from malus bad
Date:
14th century

1 : desire to cause pain, injury, or distress to another 2 : intent to commit an unlawful act or cause harm without legal justification or excuse
synonyms malice, malevolence, ill will, spite, malignity, spleen, grudge mean the desire to see another experience pain, injury, or distress. malice implies a deep-seated often unexplainable desire to see another suffer . malevolence suggests a bitter persistent hatred that is likely to be expressed in malicious conduct . ill will implies a feeling of antipathy of limited duration . spite implies petty feelings of envy and resentment that are often expressed in small harassments
. malignity implies deep passion and relentlessness . spleen suggests the wrathful release of latent spite or persistent malice . grudge implies a harbored feeling of resentment or ill will that seeks satisfaction .

Edward

[Willie Lumplump]

"If ten people complain about a person's posts, then the person gets thrown out by the moderator, then 100 people complain the person was thrown out, what is a good old moderator to do?"

I agree with Braggi here. It just gets a little tricky at times and there's a lot of grey area.

The key to dealing with trolling is to adopt a workable definition, because once trolling is recognized it can be dealt with effectively. A perfect definition free of any degree of arbitrariness isn't needed--only a workable definition.

I think there is a subtle difference as well between blatant intentional trolling and reactive personal attacks or flaming.

Again, the difference is subtle only because we aren't defining our terms. As long as we're content to muddle through with fuzzy meanings of words, we'll have the same problem of trolling.

Willie's colorful descriptive phrases such as "a malicious, cackling hyena" are also personal attacks and while somewhat less frequently also utilizes the Ad Hominen attack on a very regular basis and should know better as he probably has more of a formal educational training in fallacious argument than most of us may have.

If you'll review the context of the quote, I was referring to a newcomer viewing wacco for the first time. I can well imagine that a newcomer might think thoughts like "malicious, cackling hyena" even if he didn't express them.

it's just one of those things in life that can't be perfectly "fixed"

But we aren't looking for a perfect fix, are we? We're only looking for a fix that works well enough to make it worthwhile.

I can't help but wonder if there's anything deeper to be discovered in all of this. Has anybody learned anything particularly useful from this extended inquiry yet?

I feel that I have. I've learned that a community that weighs immensely important problems such as global warming, childhood vaccinations, political campaign financing, and the advance of fascism can't even come together to solve--or at least attempt to solve--a relatively small problem directly affecting its own membership. If we can't bring ourselves to try solving this one small problem, what hope do we have of doing anything about the larger problems that confront us? It's quite discouraging.

[Barry]

I'm feeling pretty good about our tools (Ignore option and the Censored Category). Banning itself is easy enough to do. All the considerations, warnings and other private messages that go into whether to take such a move is more difficult. Even more difficult is then to track down new sockpuppets (new usernames for the same person). Verifying whether its the same person or not, is a game I'm not interested in playing.

My sense it that TP, the username, is gone for now. I'm quite sure the person is alive, probably well, and still with us. I think TP may have lost an ex-partner and now has full time custody of its kids. Between the increased demands of parenting and perhaps the increased kindness and compassion that tends to come with the role, TP may have less time and less need to play out it's particular brand of public inquisition.

It's wit and finely crafted messages that tried to be generally innocuous or at least defensible (so s/he can say "I didn't do anything" ) while still delivering a stinging payload to it's intended target's sensitive area was extraordinarily well done. It went after any possible chink, contradiction, blind spot, or arrogance that was available. It's a pity, because pointing out these things could have been done with love in a supportive way that opened the issues for healing. Instead, s/he poked the spot only to provoke a defensive response.

S/he may be evolving to a kinder place and feels that the TP moniker carries too much baggage. We can only hope. If the TP username is truly retired, I welcome the person back under a new username. It will be interesting to see if its new username provokes complaints or is received warmly.

[shellebelle]

ROFLMAO - Willie we aren't solving anything - we are sharing and learning and that has happened here in this thread as well. For example: I can't solve global warming - I can learn and make choices right for me and my family with understanding my impact is global. Same with politics, vaccinations and many other things.

...I've learned that a community that weighs immensely important problems such as global warming, childhood vaccinations, political campaign financing, and the advance of fascism can't even come together to solve--or at least attempt to solve--a relatively small problem directly affecting its own membership. If we can't bring ourselves to try solving this one small problem, what hope do we have of doing anything about the larger problems that confront us? It's quite discouraging.

[Barry]

The key to dealing with trolling is to adopt a workable definition, because once trolling is recognized it can be dealt with effectively. A perfect definition free of any degree of arbitrariness isn't needed--only a workable definition.

Even if we could come up with a "workable definition" (and would that be arrived at and approved? My call? A community vote? A Waccoville council?) then its still a question of whether the actions meet the definition or not. Do both sides argue their case in front of a jury and then the jury decides?

Again, I'm happy with what I got. If a person bugs you, ignore them! I can exercise a moderate (being the moderator) of editorial control/public law and order/censorship, by moving the posts to the Censored category where they are still available.

I have considered branding a user with warning link in the their user title to give new users a head's up. That may happen when I get a minute to implement that and there seems to be a need. For the moment, all's well and it's steady as she goes...

[MsTerry]

yes, you are of course right Barry,
Lulu has been spotted in las Vegas doing a Tango with Elvis

...My sense it that TP, the username, is gone for now. I'm quite sure the person is alive, probably well, and still with us. ...

[MsTerry]

if the whole situation wasn't so tragic, I might be able to laugh at your confusion.

I'm feeling pretty good about our tools (Ignore option and the Censored Category). Banning itself is easy enough to do. All the considerations, warnings and other private messages that go into whether to take such a move is more difficult. Even more difficult is then to track down new sockpuppets (new usernames for the same person). Verifying whether its the same person or not, is a game I'm not interested in playing.

My sense it that TP, the username, is gone for now. I'm quite sure the person is alive, probably well, and still with us. I think TP may have lost an ex-partner and now has full time custody of its kids. Between the increased demands of parenting and perhaps the increased kindness and compassion that tends to come with the role, TP may have less time and less need to play out it's particular brand of public inquisition.

It's wit and finely crafted messages that tried to be generally innocuous or at least defensible (so s/he can say "I didn't do anything" ) while still delivering a stinging payload to it's intended target's sensitive area was extraordinarily well done. It went after any possible chink, contradiction, blind spot, or arrogance that was available. It's a pity, because pointing out these things could have been done with love in a supportive way that opened the issues for healing. Instead, s/he poked the spot only to provoke a defensive response.

S/he may be evolving to a kinder place and feels that the TP moniker carries too much baggage. We can only hope. If the TP username is truly retired, I welcome the person back under a new username. It will be interesting to see if its new username provokes complaints or is received warmly.

[MsTerry]

Lulu was quite in awe of you, she felt you were doing the same as her but with a different language, a lot of the same sentiments and humor.
she called you a "netto(?) man", I believe it is Dutch for nice guy.
she appreciated your ability to zoom in and have clarity and put it in clear to the point words, no BS.

I became in fact quite fond of The Phiant (may she rest in peace) as she had quite a talent in deflating highfalutinisms.

I once received a private message from her that was quite sweet and in which she was sensitive to the cancer treatment I am going through.

Ironic to think that she was dying of breast cancer when she wrote me the aside!

So the useful thing I learned was about the contrast between a private and a public stand.