Peyote Ceremony

[lqueen5]

Hi,

I'm wondering if anyone knows if there is anything in Northern California or outside where I could do a vision quest using peyote. I'm very into knowing more about my path and where it will lead in the past psychedelics have helped along with books, people, workshops, volunteering etc. I would love to speak with a Shaman study and understand more but I'm being called out right now in my heart to try peyote not for "fun" but for spirit.

Namaste,
Liz

[Tecumseh]

Are you Lakota? You native? Do you have any friends who are? What you doin' to help out native peoples? Ask not what we can do for you, but what you can to help those whose culture you seek to take from......

Hi,

I'm wondering if anyone knows if there is anything in Northern California or outside where I could do a vision quest using peyote. I'm very into knowing more about my path and where it will lead in the past psychedelics have helped along with books, people, workshops, volunteering etc. I would love to speak with a Shaman study and understand more but I'm being called out right now in my heart to try peyote not for "fun" but for spirit.

Namaste,
Liz

[paulrankin]

Hey Tecumseh,
I'm not looking for peyote but am wondering what you need.

Are you Lakota? You native? Do you have any friends who are? What you doin' to help out native peoples? Ask not what we can do for you, but what you can to help those whose culture you seek to take from......

[Tecumseh]

I need to quit seeing white people playing Indian, making up ceremonys, using words like "sacred" and "shaman" and all claiming to have a Cherokee grandmother.

Bunch of wannabees here and I'm sick of it.

Hey Tecumseh,
I'm not looking for peyote but am wondering what you need.

[bill shearer]

I need to quit seeing white people playing Indian-------


Good idea, I would say

[Barton Stone]

I need to quit seeing white people playing Indian-------


Good idea, I would say

I hope Liz finds exactly what she's looking for and will not be shamed by anyone for anything.

Barton Stone

[Sara S]

Tecumseh, remember: imitation is the most sincere form of tribute/flattery.

And, wait a minute; I'm not remotely Tibetan, but have been practicing that style of Buddhism for many years, and through that connection, have done myself and other people (from here to Nepal) a great deal of good. Are you implying here that I should be an Episcopalian, since I'm a caucasian-american??

I don't believe that "sacred" is a term that's limited to North American Indians.

I had a baby once with a man who was 1/4 Chippewah; would it be OK for me to use the word "shaman" sometimes?

Aren't we all one in the spirit?

Peace.

I need to quit seeing white people playing Indian, making up ceremonys, using words like "sacred" and "shaman" and all claiming to have a Cherokee grandmother.

Bunch of wannabees here and I'm sick of it.

[Juggledude]

Holy negativity, Batman

Applying the principles of the law of attraction to this post, I see a little hope for you to get what you seem to want, on the surface.

Applying what little I understand of native american spirituality to this post, I grieve for you intolerance and selfishness.

Truth wears many guises, and knows not skin color or semantics.

May you find peace in your heart, so that it may flow forth into the world.

Ho.

Royce

I need to quit seeing white people playing Indian, making up ceremonys, using words like "sacred" and "shaman" and all claiming to have a Cherokee grandmother.

Bunch of wannabees here and I'm sick of it.

[Tecumseh]

I'm sure there's plenty of sham(e_) men out there to take her money and teach pan-indianistic so-called rituals. BUH!

I hope Liz finds exactly what she's looking for and will not be shamed by anyone for anything.

Barton Stone

[Tecumseh]

So you saw "The Secret" and now you know all about cosmic principles and laws, which you so intelligently preface with your comic book reference.

Your have no understanding of ANYTHING Indian, and thinking that you do, I see that you evidently suffer from cranial rectal inversion. As for my "intolerance and selfishness" you claim to grieve over, YOU DO NOT KNOW ME and I don't appreciate your condescending holier than thou attitude.

"Ho" indeed! Got yer genuine Made In China headdress on there?

Holy negativity, Batman

Applying the principles of the law of attraction to this post, I see a little hope for you to get what you seem to want, on the surface.

Applying what little I understand of native american spirituality to this post, I grieve for you intolerance and selfishness.

Truth wears many guises, and knows not skin color or semantics.

May you find peace in your heart, so that it may flow forth into the world.

Ho.

Royce

[Carl]

It is very sad indeed to recognize dogma in all its forms as they constrict us like a boa.

To tell anyone they have no understanding of a subject and then insist that you yourself are the one who does know what is valid and worth knowing, well that is the meaning of dogma and self-righteousness.

May I try to elucidate the meaning of the word "shaman"? It turns out that this very useful word is not Indian or Native American in any real sense. It is derived from European languages as well as Sanskrit and Russian. To close my statement, I will include here a clip taken from the internet that has an explanation of this term.

And may all of those who wish to understand the world of spirit, come to their senses in this world and the next. We do not require peyote to see spirit, but it does exist for all. Simply confront your paradoxes where they live, and breath in the resulting grace of clarity in confusion. Ho, Aloha, Hello and God Be'Ya. This life is a gift of grace, given freely to all.

"Technically, according to the third edition of the American Heritage Dictionay, a shaman is "a member of certain tribal societies who acts as a medium between the visible world and an invisible spirit world and who practices magic or sorcery for purposes of healing, divination, and control over natural events" (AHD, 1992). The derivation of the word "shaman" is Russian, from Tungus saman, Buddhist monk, shaman, from Tocharian samene, from Prakrit samana, from Sanskrit sramenah, from sramah, religious exercise; you will note that shaman is ultimately Indo-European in origin (AHD, 1992). Although I realize that the word "shaman" is a loaded word, implying the ritual practices of the Tungus people, I do think that there is evidence of shamanic behavior in medieval Celtic literature."

(Taken from this website: Link: )

Carl.

[Tecumseh]

Don't tell me to "remember" something that I disagree with. Imitation is what those without their own culture do that bastardises thousands of years of tradition. Imitation is what those who have no artistic creativity of their own do. Imitation is fake, false, phoney. Imitation crab meat, imitation leather. Chinese knock-offs.

I didn't imply a thing about you being an Episcopalian or state that the word "sacred" is limited to Indian vocabulary or culture. Is is possible for you to follow this statement clearly when I say I'm sick of white people playing Indian, and what that means? If you had a baby with a black man does that make you black? Or know what it's like to be black? I don't think so. You wanna use the word "shaman"? Go for it. Who I am I to tell anyone what to do or not do???? That's maybe your culture's way, to tell everyone else how they should live their lives.

Jeez!!! I'm sick of hearing all the phoney fake bullsh*t "shaman" crap that permeates "New Age" culture. You wanna be a part of that, that's your life, your choice. And I just as equally have the right to be disgusted by it.

Aren't we all one in what "The" spirit?

Tecumseh, remember: imitation is the most sincere form of tribute/flattery.

And, wait a minute; I'm not remotely Tibetan, but have been practicing that style of Buddhism for many years, and through that connection, have done myself and other people (from here to Nepal) a great deal of good. Are you implying here that I should be an Episcopalian, since I'm a caucasian-american??

I don't believe that "sacred" is a term that's limited to North American Indians.

I had a baby once with a man who was 1/4 Chippewah; would it be OK for me to use the word "shaman" sometimes?

Aren't we all one in the spirit?

Peace.

[Tecumseh]

I am the only one who knows what is valid or worth knowing for me, and I also know what I find disgusting or admirable in others. I don't admire the self-righteousness of non-Indians who try to lay claim to a culture which isn't theirs and such behaviour disgusts me.

It is very sad indeed to recognize dogma in all its forms as they constrict us like a boa.

To tell anyone they have no understanding of a subject and then insist that you yourself are the one who does know what is valid and worth knowing, well that is the meaning of dogma and self-righteousness.

May I try to elucidate the meaning of the word "shaman"? It turns out that this very useful word is not Indian or Native American in any real sense. It is derived from European languages as well as Sanskrit and Russian. To close my statement, I will include here a clip taken from the internet that has an explanation of this term.

And may all of those who wish to understand the world of spirit, come to their senses in this world and the next. We do not require peyote to see spirit, but it does exist for all. Simply confront your paradoxes where they live, and breath in the resulting grace of clarity in confusion. Ho, Aloha, Hello and God Be'Ya. This life is a gift of grace, given freely to all.

"Technically, according to the third edition of the American Heritage Dictionay, a shaman is "a member of certain tribal societies who acts as a medium between the visible world and an invisible spirit world and who practices magic or sorcery for purposes of healing, divination, and control over natural events" (AHD, 1992). The derivation of the word "shaman" is Russian, from Tungus saman, Buddhist monk, shaman, from Tocharian samene, from Prakrit samana, from Sanskrit sramenah, from sramah, religious exercise; you will note that shaman is ultimately Indo-European in origin (AHD, 1992). Although I realize that the word "shaman" is a loaded word, implying the ritual practices of the Tungus people, I do think that there is evidence of shamanic behavior in medieval Celtic literature."

(Taken from this website: Link: )

Carl.

[fluteman]

Tecumseh,

What tribe/nation do you represent?

[GiGi]

accusatory judgements are not helpful to people who are obviously in pain.
unless you were writing this whole post to yourself........................

kiss
GiGi

Holy negativity, Batman

Applying the principles of the law of attraction to this post, I see a little hope for you to get what you seem to want, on the surface.

Applying what little I understand of native american spirituality to this post, I grieve for you intolerance and selfishness.

Truth wears many guises, and knows not skin color or semantics.

May you find peace in your heart, so that it may flow forth into the world.

Ho.

Royce

[iaim2xl]

Tecumseh:

We white people have done enough to Native Americans over the years. Don't make it worse by giving us any more power. If you truly own your culture and spirituality, no one can ever take that from you.

The warrior's greatest battle is always with himself. The more anger you feel about "white people playing Indian," the less you stand in your power. You could choose a thousand other responses.

You could laugh at the silly white girl who wants what you have.
You could create satisfaction in helping her find the way.
You could become excited that white people are finally realizing the value in native culture.
You could be indifferent and move on to something else.
You could find peace in knowing that white people are finally committing to peace.
You could.... well, you make up one that works for you.

[lqueen5]

Hi,

As the person who originally posted this I need to just say. Yes for right now I am in pain and am on a path and I so want to thank the members who have given me some kind words and virtual hugs along the way.


We are all one and all I'm trying to do is learn from my fellow spiritual teachers and guides. I have studied all types of religions and cultures and am like a sponge who want to learn more and more....my two desires of learning are Native American teachings and Buddism.

I grew up in the culture of Judism so anyone who wants to learn something or show interest I'm all up for inviting that person to play a game of dreidle and make some latkes and understand the deep traditions in Judism.....I find that to be a huge form of flattery and people usually thank me....if I helped someone laugh and learn something new on the way that is so beautiful to me.

So for the people who think I'm trying to get away with something or be fake and phony....then please in loving kindness what are your suggestions in me learning more about the culture, would you take my hand in love and show me the way my brothers and sisters.

LOVE IS ALWAYS the answer. Instead of chastising me and you don't even know me then offer me a kind word and love......

Thank you everyone again for thinking of me and helping me cultivate my path to compassion and empathy.

Lizard Lets all take a deep breath and laugh!

[smonday]

Tecumsah and all,

Hi,
I'd like you to read the following. It is the decision from a court case about a non native American who was a member of the Native American Church. Please read the entire ruling. It might present a point of view that you could consider as to how other Native Americans and non-native Americans see the freedom to practice the religion of ones choice. I'd be very interested in your response.

Stella

I am attaching to this email a judge's opinion regarding a case that
Bob was involved in; the man is very eloquent, and this is kind of a
landmark legal decision regarding the federal protection of the 1st
amendment right to religious worship.


U.S. vs Boyll
On May 10, 1990, a Federal Grand Jury indicted Robert Lawrence Boyll, a non-Native American member of the Native American Church, for (1) unlawfully
importing peyote through the United States mail and (2) possessing peyote with the intent to distribute it. Mr. Boyll went on a pilgrimage to Mexico to obtain
peyote for himself and members of the congregations with whom he worships. In September of 1991 Judge Juan Burciaga, Chief Federal Judge of the
District of New Mexico (Albuquerque) granted Defendant Robert Boyll's motions to dimiss the inditment. The Plaintiff, "United States of America" appealed
the decision in the 10th Federal District Court in Denver where the Burciaga decision was upheld by a panel of three judges. All four judges involved were
required to read Dr. Omar Stewart's book "The Peyote Religion" (1987 University of Oklahoma Press) which became Exhibit A. Following is the inspiring full text of Judge Burciaga's decision.


IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
FOR THE DISTRICT OF NEW MEXICO

UNITED STATES OF AMERICA
Plaintiff

v.

Criminal No. 90-207-JB
ROBERT LAWRENCE BOYLL
Defendant

MEMORANDUM OPINION AND ORDER
THERE is a genius to our Constitution. Its genius is that it speaks to the freedoms of the individual. It is this genius that brings the present matter before the
Court. More specifically, this matter concerns a freedom that was a natural idea whose genesis was in the Plymouth Charter, and finds its present form in the
First Amendment to the United States Constitution -- the freedom of religion.

The Government's "war on drugs" has become a wildfire that threatens to consume those fundamental rights of the individual deliberately enshrined in our
Constitution. Ironically, as we celebrate the 2OOth anniversary of the Bill of Rights, the tattered Fourth Amendment right to be free from unreasonable
searches and seizures and the now frail Fifth Amendment right against self-incrimination or deprivation of liberty without due process have fallen as
casualties in this "war on drugs." It was naive of this Court to hope that this erosion of constitutional protections would stop at the Fourth and Fifth
Amendments. But today, the "war" targets on e of the most deeply held fundamental rights -- the First Amendment right to freely exercise one's religion.

To us in the Southwest, this freedom of religion has singular significance because it affects diverse cultures. It is as much of us as the rain on our hair, the
wind on the grass, and the sun on our faces. It is so naturally a part of us that when the joy of this beautiful freedom sings in our souls, we find it hard to
conceive that it could ever be imperilled. Yet, today, in this land of bright blue skies and yellow grass, of dusty prairies and beautiful mesas, and vistas of red
earth with walls of weathered rock, eroded by oceans of time, the free spirit of the individual once again is threatened by the arrogance of Government.

The issue presented is the recurring conflict between the Native American Church members' right to freely exercise their religion through the ceremonial use
of peyote and the Government's efforts to eradicate illegal drugs. To the Government, peyote is a dangerous hallucinogen. To Robert Boyll, peyote is both
a sacrament and a deity essential to his religion. But this matter concerns competing interests far greater than those relating to this small, spineless cactus
having psychedelic properties. It draws forth a troublesome constitutional conflict which arises from fundamentally different perspectives of peyote.

{Snip - Barry}

You can the read the rest of this decision on the Erowid website ("Documenting the Complex Relationship between Humans and Psychoactives"). The decision is here.

[Tecumseh]

Represent? You just don't get it, do you? I'm not so egotistical as to purport that I "represent" any entire tribe or nation. I am simply expressing my personal feelings. What tribe or nation I am born from, that is irrelivant to the entire dialogue and frankly I would find that inquiry offensive. If I am of Apache or Ojibway or Navajo tribe, what does that matter to this discussion or to you? Nothing that I can discern. What if I'm Seminole? You an expert on Seminoles? I doubt that you're any kind of an "expert" on any particular tribe, eh? So, what's it matter to you?

If I told you what tribe I am, you gonna next ask what "blood percentage" I am too? You ever heard people saying, "My grandma was 1/16th Italian and that makes me 1/64th"? People don't go around saying, "Ooooh, my great great great grandma was Irish, so that makes me Irish too!" Yeah, right. Blood percentage indeed!

Don't waste my time or yours with questions that have no meaning.

Tecumseh,

What tribe/nation do you represent?

[Tecumseh]

I don't need anything, thank you. I DO see Indians needing a lot of help with drug and alchohol abuse, domestic abuse, some kind of jobs available in rural areas, better representation in government, both local and national. I see Indians needing assistance with decent housing and education, elderly who are unable to pay their utility bills or get medicine they need.

In some areas of this nation it's like a third world country. Indian kids disappear and no real effort is made by local police to locate them. Indian kids commit suicide because they have no real future to look forward to.

Lots of Indians need all kinds of help, but I don't see many of the "vision questing" whites doing much to help anyone but themselves or their peers.

Hey Tecumseh,
I'm not looking for peyote but am wondering what you need.

[Tecumseh]

A person's life, religion included, is up to them to decide how to live it. I am not at all enamoured with the NAC. I feel that it is simply another form of Christianity, albiet brownwashed. Not for me thanks.

Question for you... Just because the court makes a ruling, then it's all warm and fuzzy? What about this whole thing with women and abortions? Gee, sometimes the courts' opinions and rulings are cozy when they mirror our personal beliefs, but damn wrong when they don't, eh?

Tecumsah and all,
Hi,
I'd like you to read the following. It is the decision from a court case about a non native American who was a member of the Native American Church. Please read the entire ruling. It might present a point of view that you could consider as to how other Native Americans and non-native Americans see the freedom to practice the religion of ones choice. I'd be very interested in your response.

Stella

{snip}

[nurturetruth]

THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU...for posting. it is obvious you do aim 2 excel.

I am making the choice to just observe the un-healed energy...which many hold.

to each their own medicine and form of healing. for some, its embracing acupuncture and chinese medicine. And yes, many caucasian and other races/nationalities appreciate the healings other traditions have to offer.

So many wonderful forms of healing and medicine to tap into..what works for one..might not work for another. I am native american. Cherokee. My skin is definitely NOT white....

ya know what bugs me? when native americans turn to and rely on white peoples medicine!! just kiddin' here....

May you prosper in your self realizing/ healing journey, Liz. I hope you attract what it is you need for your healing..regardless of what culture it comes from. I will continue to put out the energy that some conscious being from the community of Wacco , will help "hold your hand and guide you" (i would assume you would have more luck posting on wacco than craigslist...may want to try tribe.net....that incorporates Bay area.)

Yet at the same time, i also am aware that something like a peyote or ayawaska ceremony only comes when the receiver is truly ready...

Namaste' (from a non tibet being who has learned and honored the culture)

Tecumseh:

We white people have done enough to Native Americans over the years. Don't make it worse by giving us any more power. If you truly own your culture and spirituality, no one can ever take that from you.

The warrior's greatest battle is always with himself. The more anger you feel about "white people playing Indian," the less you stand in your power. You could choose a thousand other responses.

You could laugh at the silly white girl who wants what you have.
You could create satisfaction in helping her find the way.
You could become excited that white people are finally realizing the value in native culture.
You could be indifferent and move on to something else.
You could find peace in knowing that white people are finally committing to peace.
You could.... well, you make up one that works for you.

[Tecumseh]

When someone tells you that their way is the only way, run for your life.
When somone tells you that their way is not your way, walk towards yourself.

Hi,

As the person who originally posted this I need to just say. Yes for right now I am in pain and am on a path and I so want to thank the members who have given me some kind words and virtual hugs along the way.


We are all one and all I'm trying to do is learn from my fellow spiritual teachers and guides. I have studied all types of religions and cultures and am like a sponge who want to learn more and more....my two desires of learning are Native American teachings and Buddism.

I grew up in the culture of Judism so anyone who wants to learn something or show interest I'm all up for inviting that person to play a game of dreidle and make some latkes and understand the deep traditions in Judism.....I find that to be a huge form of flattery and people usually thank me....if I helped someone laugh and learn something new on the way that is so beautiful to me.

So for the people who think I'm trying to get away with something or be fake and phony....then please in loving kindness what are your suggestions in me learning more about the culture, would you take my hand in love and show me the way my brothers and sisters.

LOVE IS ALWAYS the answer. Instead of chastising me and you don't even know me then offer me a kind word and love......

Thank you everyone again for thinking of me and helping me cultivate my path to compassion and empathy.

Lizard Lets all take a deep breath and laugh!

[Tecumseh]

You make good sense, thank you. Sometimes I have a knee-jerk reaction, and that's mine to work on. Don't wanna do to others some of the things that have been done to me..... 'sides, some of my best friends are white...

Tecumseh:

We white people have done enough to Native Americans over the years. Don't make it worse by giving us any more power. If you truly own your culture and spirituality, no one can ever take that from you.

The warrior's greatest battle is always with himself. The more anger you feel about "white people playing Indian," the less you stand in your power. You could choose a thousand other responses.

You could laugh at the silly white girl who wants what you have.
You could create satisfaction in helping her find the way.
You could become excited that white people are finally realizing the value in native culture.
You could be indifferent and move on to something else.
You could find peace in knowing that white people are finally committing to peace.
You could.... well, you make up one that works for you.

[Barry]

Beautiful! Thanks Tim (iaim2xl), nurturetruth, lqueen5 and others for responding here with wisdom, kindness and compassion. Thank you, Tecumseh, for speaking your truth of the moment, being open to hear other points of view, and having the courage to share that your understanding of your self and the world has shifted. Kinda gives one hope....

You make good sense, thank you. Sometimes I have a knee-jerk reaction, and that's mine to work on. Don't wanna do to others some of the things that have been done to me..... 'sides, some of my best friends are white...

[fluteman]

You seem to have a talent to answering questions that haven't been asked. I was simply curious to know if you were actually Native American, be it by blood, culture, or however or whatever it may mean to you. Perhaps you are, perhaps you are not, and yes, it is not my business if you choose to keep this information private. My perspective comes from having grown up around Native Americans, spending many days and nights on reservations and knowing, perhaps just a little more than the average non Native what life is like for some of these people.

I've had conversations with Native American elders about how they feel about white folks learning "shamanism" and other forms of old world spirituality (perhaps including their own traditions) and I've never met any that have been as accusational or downright mean as you have appeared to be on this forum. Some of them talked about what it meant to be a good person, regardless of race, and others that you should be aware of your actions at all times because on the other side of the coin, if you are of a distinct ethnicity, in some circles, you are representing your tribe/culture when you interface with others. I feel that this is one such place, but what we see/present to others online is just one facet of the gemstone that makes us all who we are.

If you really took offense at someone wanting to know a little more about you, based on observing you tear some seemingly innocent folks a new rear end out what appeared to be hatred and spite, then well, that is what it is. I've seen what hate and anger does to our insides, and it's easy to do to both ourselves and others.

Compassion is a little more difficult. And being totally honest, I'm having trouble having much of it for you at the moment. But I am still young, and I have a lot to learn...however, I will say thank you, for the lesson...

Represent? You just don't get it, do you? I'm not so egotistical as to purport that I "represent" any entire tribe or nation. I am simply expressing my personal feelings. What tribe or nation I am born from, that is irrelivant to the entire dialogue and frankly I would find that inquiry offensive. If I am of Apache or Ojibway or Navajo tribe, what does that matter to this discussion or to you? Nothing that I can discern. What if I'm Seminole? You an expert on Seminoles? I doubt that you're any kind of an "expert" on any particular tribe, eh? So, what's it matter to you?

If I told you what tribe I am, you gonna next ask what "blood percentage" I am too? You ever heard people saying, "My grandma was 1/16th Italian and that makes me 1/64th"? People don't go around saying, "Ooooh, my great great great grandma was Irish, so that makes me Irish too!" Yeah, right. Blood percentage indeed!

Don't waste my time or yours with questions that have no meaning.

[paulrankin]

Hey Tehcumsa,
It is sad that you have needed to make this second post. Your saying you were sick of seeing white people play Indian seemed so to the point. I can say I'm not a Catholic so when I go to mass I don't take communion. I could take it and probably nobody would try to stop me but that would be a violation of something that Catholics hold sacred. I guess if I wanted to take communion real bad I could get baptised and then it would make it ok but if I didn't embrace the Catholic values would I really be a Catholic... would communion really be the same thing for me or would it just be a game I was playing? Without context ceremonies have no meaning. What I heard you saying is that if you want to participate in Native ceremonies then do something establish a context. If you know nothing of Native People how can you be drawn to Native practices.
It seems to me that today's person in search of the truth no longer has need of anger or shame. By saying you were sick of seeing white people play Indian you also expressed some anger. How do you ever expect to fit in now?

Paul

I don't need anything, thank you. I DO see Indians needing a lot of help with drug and alchohol abuse, domestic abuse, some kind of jobs available in rural areas, better representation in government, both local and national. I see Indians needing assistance with decent housing and education, elderly who are unable to pay their utility bills or get medicine they need.

In some areas of this nation it's like a third world country. Indian kids disappear and no real effort is made by local police to locate them. Indian kids commit suicide because they have no real future to look forward to.

Lots of Indians need all kinds of help, but I don't see many of the "vision questing" whites doing much to help anyone but themselves or their peers.

[Tecumseh]

I still don't like seeing white people play Indian. Won't human beings, as such, continue to experience anger and shame in their lives? As for fitting in, I fit in my own skin.

Hey Tehcumsa,
It is sad that you have needed to make this second post. Your saying you were sick of seeing white people play Indian seemed so to the point. I can say I'm not a Catholic so when I go to mass I don't take communion. I could take it and probably nobody would try to stop me but that would be a violation of something that Catholics hold sacred. I guess if I wanted to take communion real bad I could get baptised and then it would make it ok but if I didn't embrace the Catholic values would I really be a Catholic... would communion really be the same thing for me or would it just be a game I was playing? Without context ceremonies have no meaning. What I heard you saying is that if you want to participate in Native ceremonies then do something establish a context. If you know nothing of Native People how can you be drawn to Native practices.
It seems to me that today's person in search of the truth no longer has need of anger or shame. By saying you were sick of seeing white people play Indian you also expressed some anger. How do you ever expect to fit in now?

Paul

[Tecumseh]

I am by both blood and culture. My perspective comes from living life with my family and members of my tribe, which happens to be Oklahoma Band Choctaw of Southeastern OK. Many are angry, bitter. That anger has been passed on to me, and that's mine to work on.

I don't need anyone else's compassion, only my own, for myself and toward others.

You seem to have a talent to answering questions that haven't been asked. I was simply curious to know if you were actually Native American, be it by blood, culture, or however or whatever it may mean to you. Perhaps you are, perhaps you are not, and yes, it is not my business if you choose to keep this information private. My perspective comes from having grown up around Native Americans, spending many days and nights on reservations and knowing, perhaps just a little more than the average non Native what life is like for some of these people.

I've had conversations with Native American elders about how they feel about white folks learning "shamanism" and other forms of old world spirituality (perhaps including their own traditions) and I've never met any that have been as accusational or downright mean as you have appeared to be on this forum. Some of them talked about what it meant to be a good person, regardless of race, and others that you should be aware of your actions at all times because on the other side of the coin, if you are of a distinct ethnicity, in some circles, you are representing your tribe/culture when you interface with others. I feel that this is one such place, but what we see/present to others online is just one facet of the gemstone that makes us all who we are.

If you really took offense at someone wanting to know a little more about you, based on observing you tear some seemingly innocent folks a new rear end out what appeared to be hatred and spite, then well, that is what it is. I've seen what hate and anger does to our insides, and it's easy to do to both ourselves and others.

Compassion is a little more difficult. And being totally honest, I'm having trouble having much of it for you at the moment. But I am still young, and I have a lot to learn...however, I will say thank you, for the lesson...

[GiGi]

I've met many Indians who were bananas
yellow on the outside, white on the inside

who are you really mad at Indians or the rest of the world?
is it OK for Mexicans to play Indian?

I still don't like seeing white people play Indian. Won't human beings, as such, continue to experience anger and shame in their lives? As for fitting in, I fit in my own skin.