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Thread: The Mind Of God
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  1. TopTop #1
    Tars's Avatar
    Tars
     

    The Mind Of God

    For the Christianists in our government who would tell us how the human race began, when life begins, who to marry, how to live our lives:

    "All great religions, in order to escape absurdity, have to admit a dilution of agnosticism. It is only the savage, whether of the African bush or the American gospel tent, who pretends to know the will and intent of God exactly and completely. "For who hath known the mind of the Lord?" asked Paul of the Romans. "How unsearchable are His judgments, and His was past finding out." "It is the glory of God," said Solomon, "to conceal a thing." "Clouds and darkness," said David, "are around Him." "No man," said the Preacher, "can find out the work of God." ... The difference between religions is a difference in their relative content of agnosticism. The most satisfying and ecstatic faith is almost purely agnostic. It trusts absolutely without professing to know at all," - H. L. Mencken.
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  2. TopTop #2

    Re: The Mind Of God

    Right on Dude!
    Tom
    Quote Posted in reply to the post by Tars: View Post
    For the Christianists in our government who would tell us how the human race began, when life begins, who to marry, how to live our lives: ...
    Last edited by Barry; 04-14-2007 at 09:00 AM.
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  3. TopTop #3
    Sara S's Avatar
    Sara S
    Auntie Wacco

    Re: The Mind Of God

    I saw a good bumper sticker a while back: Evolution is just a theory--sort of like gravity.
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  4. TopTop #4
    "Mad" Miles
     

    Re: The Mind Of God

    Stayed with friends in Berkeley last night. Still here clearing net text. There is a bumpersticker on the kitchen counter that amuses:

    "Republicans For Voldemort"

    www.goats.com

    Nice R, W and B flag motif.

    Cheery Bye!

    "M"M
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  5. TopTop #5
    mykil's Avatar
    mykil
    A Really Cute Guy

    Re: The Mind Of God

    I see allot of stickers on cars, , I seek them out, I think they are a great inspiration to me! My all time favorite has to be the Jesus fish with the "N chips" in the middle!
    Last edited by mykil; 04-13-2007 at 04:41 PM.
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  6. TopTop #6
    "Mad" Miles
     

    Re: The Mind Of God

    "N Chips" ? Maybe it's the bronchitis but... I don't see it. Wha?



    Guess this proves once and for all that I for one, don't have the mind of god!
    Last edited by "Mad" Miles; 04-13-2007 at 07:50 PM. Reason: Add punch line
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  7. TopTop #7
    mykil's Avatar
    mykil
    A Really Cute Guy

    Re: The Mind Of God

    Oh wow; you are a little slow tonight, OR I just didn't make myself clear! Hmmmm you know the little darwin fish yes, you know the little jesus fish glued to the back of cars everywhere, little metal fish that have the word jesus in them, then came the darwin fish, then came "n chips"! If need be Ill draw you a picture and send it to you!!!!! LMAO!!!!
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  8. TopTop #8
    Dixon's Avatar
    Dixon
     

    Re: The Mind Of God

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by mykil: View Post
    I see allot of stickers on cars, , I seek them out, I think they are a great inspiration to me!
    I have an idea for a Zen bumper sticker: just cut a hole, the size and shape of a bumper sticker, in the bumper.

    Probably my favorite of the bumper stickers I've seen would be:

    "Illiterate? Write today for free brochure!"

    Dixon
    Last edited by Barry; 04-13-2007 at 10:49 PM.
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  9. TopTop #9
    nurturetruth's Avatar
    nurturetruth
    Co-observing

    Re: The Mind Of God

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by Tars: View Post
    For the Christianists in our government who would tell us how the human race began, when life begins, who to marry, how to live our lives:

    "All great religions, in order to escape absurdity, have to admit a dilution of agnosticism. It is only the savage, whether of the African bush or the American gospel tent, who pretends to know the will and intent of God exactly and completely. "For who hath known the mind of the Lord?" asked Paul of the Romans. "How unsearchable are His judgments, and His was past finding out." "It is the glory of God," said Solomon, "to conceal a thing." "Clouds and darkness," said David, "are around Him." "No man," said the Preacher, "can find out the work of God." ... The difference between religions is a difference in their relative content of agnosticism. The most satisfying and ecstatic faith is almost purely agnostic. It trusts absolutely without professing to know at all," - H. L. Mencken.
    "Just as mind is the human meaning of the brain, so God is the theological meaning of mind. That is, all that people have meant by the term "God" -- experientially, conceptually, institutionally -- constitutes the criterion that determines what matters most to human beings. My argument, then, involves two assumptive leaps: (1) from brain to mind -- that is, from physical processes to human significance; and (2) from mind to God -- that is, from historically derived values to transcendent values. God represents that for which we have been created and that which we seek in our longing to be and become who we truly are. Whatever that may be!!

    Even if we evolve something from nothing!!
    or from a big bang! or perhaps let us rather enjoy the stillness of knowing nothing...which eventually makes space to keep receiving something if we so choose....

    Consider: that god is YOU.
    It has been proven that the word God=Nature on a numerological value level by ancient Hebrew Scholars.

    and we can choose to be either aware or unaware of truth. perhaps truth is awareness...but truth or "to trust" is not synonymous with "to believe" or "the process of belief".

    Alas, the People without a form of government almost always produces anarchy. There is NO government of the kingdom of God aka 'The Force', outside his/her own church. (inner self..or inner brain/beliefs). The primary purpose of the individual being- church is to establish ITS OWN gov't/reality... There is no end to government/reality sadly enough. perhaps an end to religion and its absurdness one day.....

    Therefore, the questions are: Do we play a part of that government, or are we rebels?" and.. "is ignorance truly bliss?"

    "if "the Force" energy did not include all things to be Universal and if it recognized anything as being outside Itself, would be to deny its very being.
    so the nature of Universal intelligence is perhaps ,an absence of individual personality........
    though we perhaps have been conditioned to believe that we are individuals, we are actually a part of the grand Universal nature that is infinite in its possibilities ...with all of our vibrations vibrating. regardless of anything!"

    hmmmmmm........ I am just wondering what was before the BIG BANG !! "May the Force (farce?) be with you! "


    Last edited by nurturetruth; 04-16-2007 at 11:25 AM.
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  10. TopTop #10
    "Mad" Miles
     

    Re: The Mind Of God

    Re: "Fish'n'Chips"

    Hadn't seen the sticker out there, (or am I projecting from Mykil's projection which is not an actual "image in the world"?) So the joke escaped me.

    Don't we almost always suffer from the flaws we find most irritating in others? In the past I've occasionally made the blanket accusation that some on this board, and many out there in the "real" world, are irony impaired. Perhaps that is also one of my many lacks.

    Regarding the discussion of "God" as an expression of human need, potential and that s/he/it/they/us is something just beyond the limin (threshold) of our sense of self, control, every day reality, etc.

    Another idea is that concepts of God, and its attendant religious systems, were invented by elites to keep the masses in line and malleable to social and economic control.

    "Hey, I'M not telling you to do it. GOD IS! Us priests and priestesses just happen to have the best line of communication to him/her/them/us so trust us, WE KNOW, OR ELSE!!!"

    Based on my reading of history, I am very sympathetic to this latter analysis.

    And on the idea that concepts of the divine are just vague, floating signifiers for what we semi-consciously, or unconsciously, project into the world (or are reflected back to us from that world, or given that "all is ONE", there is a seamless (w)hole that is beyond our limited and fragmented perceptual apparati) well, most people who believe in divine entities tend to personalize them into some form of extra-material, yet corporeal beings that have; identity, consciousness, personality, etc..

    In other words, in most actually practiced religions / spiritual longing, seeking, path exploring efforts, people project or encounter entities that to them are more than just a mix of abstract concepts.

    And there's the rub. It's one thing to talk about values and concepts as indicators of universal, or at least partially universal, being/reality, it is another to personalize (in the sense of being a person, not in the sense of making it important to oneself) those concepts and believing (having faith) that those persons, either incorporeal, or manifested sometimes corporeally, are GOD(DESS).

    Whatever ya want, as long as you don't try to pressure me into thinking like you. And leave the kids alone and let them make up their own minds!

    Fish' N' Chips? Occasionally, lightly battered and not too greasy, with lots of salt, malt vinegar and some hot sauce. Now that's a spiritual path I've followed off and on for years! And I've the fine corporeal figure to prove it!

    "Mad" Miles





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  11. TopTop #11
    nurturetruth's Avatar
    nurturetruth
    Co-observing

    Re: The Mind Of God

    May the force/farce be with us all !



    Quote Posted in reply to the post by Mad Miles: View Post
    Re: "Fish'n'Chips"

    Hadn't seen the sticker out there, (or am I projecting from Mykil's projection which is not an actual "image in the world"?) So the joke escaped me....
    Last edited by Barry; 04-15-2007 at 11:22 AM.
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  12. TopTop #12
    dreyfusj's Avatar
    dreyfusj
     

    Re: The Mind Of God

    There is a lot of material here for a recovering atheist who followed the trail of historical evidence to the conclusion that Jesus Christ lived (virtually undisputed), was murdered by the Romans (virtually undisputed), was buried in a borrowed tomb (virtually undisputed) and rose from the dead on the third day (in my judgment, the only available conclusion to be drawn from an examination of the historical record).
    Considering that I am the only person on either side of my family to come to faith in Jesus and that I actually set out to satisfy myself that the whole notion was a myth, I invite you to be as startled as I was.
    I like the notion of space for agnosticism if, by that, we mean uncertainty as to God's intentions. So far I am reasonably certain that Jesus died to reconcile us with God and that my purpose on earth is to be a conduit of His perfect love. I am a less than perfect conduit and praying for improvement. Beyond these things I am content to wait on The Lord for an understanding of His will.
    He loves us all and that is the Good News.
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  13. TopTop #13
    mykil's Avatar
    mykil
    A Really Cute Guy

    Re: The Mind Of God

    Prayer is a wonderful tool, yet when I do pray, I have a sneaking suspicion that I am only praying to our world and not beyond.

    I have come to the conclusion in my own mind that we are one and when I do pray I am only praying to this oneness, not beyond. At this point in time, my believes have subsided to this point and not beyond. I really don’t believe my prayers are making it beyond our own world. The vibration stops here!!! [String theory in all].

    With this all said and done, my prayers have now become localized, more of a family pray for all over the world. Although on occasion I still pray for our galaxies and beyond. [I do cover all my bases]!!!

    To follow one leader is just wrong, to pray for just one god is just wrong, what is he vain? He needs all our prayers for himself? This is the way I was brought up; I think I need a Christian recovery group at some point in time just to get this bull out of my system. Not that there’s anything wrong with it!

    At any rate, next time you are praying to our lord, just realize that you may only be praying to all of us, and that I for one will be listening!
    Last edited by mykil; 04-16-2007 at 10:14 PM.
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  14. TopTop #14
    nurturetruth's Avatar
    nurturetruth
    Co-observing

    Re: The Mind Of God

    "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."
    ~ Albert Einstein (1879-1955), "Science, Philosophy & Religion: 1941


    "The worst moment for the atheist is when she/he is really thankful and has nobody to thank." Dante' Rossetti (1828-1882)


    I personally have always admired atheists. It does take alot of Faith!

    I once even wanted to become an atheist...but they don't have any holidays!!










    Last edited by nurturetruth; 04-16-2007 at 11:44 PM.
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  15. TopTop #15
    Shazzer
    Guest

    Re: The Mind Of God

    re: an answer to the cartoon...all those tiny vibrating strings may create a joyous sound!


    Quote Posted in reply to the post by nurturetruth: View Post
    ...

    Last edited by Barry; 04-16-2007 at 06:39 PM.
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  16. TopTop #16
    dreyfusj's Avatar
    dreyfusj
     

    Re: The Mind Of God

    So much to respond to I can't cover it all.
    Nurturetruth wonders "what was before the Big Bang ?" It appears there is an answer to that. I heard a leading British cosmologist on NPR no so long ago discussing the Big Bang and he was asked that very question. He said science is only slightly less confident in the answer to that question than they are in the fact of the Big Bang itself.
    The answer ? Nothing . According to science there was "nothing" and then there was a "singularity" and all the energy and matter in the universe was created instantaneously in an infinitesimally small dot and simultaneously exploded (the Big Bang) out into the universe as we know it.
    It seems to me that this version requires much more faith that is required to believe God created the universe. Also, the Big Bang theory does nothing to explain the historical fact of Jesus Christ which the God theory does nicely.
    I think I'll stick with the facts.
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  17. TopTop #17
    mykil's Avatar
    mykil
    A Really Cute Guy

    Re: The Mind Of God

    Dreyfusj; Tell us more, Tell us more! Don't hold back we are bored and want to hear what you have to say!


    Quote Posted in reply to the post by dreyfusj: View Post
    So much to respond to I can't cover it all.
    Nurturetruth wonders "what was before the Big Bang ?" It appears there is an answer to that. I heard a leading British cosmologist on NPR no so long ago discussing the Big Bang and he was asked that very question. He said science is only slightly less confident in the answer to that question than they are in the fact of the Big Bang itself.
    The answer ? Nothing . According to science there was "nothing" and then there was a "singularity" and all the energy and matter in the universe was created instantaneously in an infinitesimally small dot and simultaneously exploded (the Big Bang) out into the universe as we know it.
    It seems to me that this version requires much more faith that is required to believe God created the universe. Also, the Big Bang theory does nothing to explain the historical fact of Jesus Christ which the God theory does nicely.
    I think I'll stick with the facts.
    Last edited by Barry; 04-17-2007 at 01:42 PM.
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  18. TopTop #18
    dreyfusj's Avatar
    dreyfusj
     

    Re: The Mind Of God

    mykil, thanks for your note. What part would you like to hear ? About the atheist/agnostic-raised smart mouth teenager who used to like to reduce Catholic kids to tears asking questions they couldn't answer ?
    About the college newspaper editor writing a bitter editorial about the hypocrisy of Christians at Christmas and later wondering why he cared ? About the man finally deciding to put the matter to rest once and for all and look up the book/essay/article that proved conclusively that Jesus was a myth and finding the evidence proving otherwise ?
    I have not changed my youthful opinion about the story of God, Creation, Jesus, the Ressurection or Eternal Life. The story is absurd beyond description, implausible beyond measure, impossible, unbelievable and unworthy of the attention of intelligent people. It's only redeeming virtue is that it's true and, as such, the most important information on the planet.
    Tell me what you'd like to hear or just keep saying "More". I love an audience.
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  19. TopTop #19

    Re: The Mind Of God

    "Nothing" IS a very difficult concept to wrap one's mind around, since nothing is there... so does that mean nothing IS not something or just the lack of something we know about... and just where did this small dot of singularity come from? It had to come from somewhere, which is not nowhere, where nothing is. Ouch, I've given myself another infinity headache!

    As far as I can tell, the human mind must be insufficient to really understand or explain concepts like "infinity" or "nothing" or "God", so that's why people make their best case and say it must be believed on "faith".

    There are lots of nice stories to be read, but I don't know that they are all 'fact', tho we are all free to believe what we want and I understand that people need to believe in 'something' sometimes so they don't go nuts and for other social comfort reasons.

    All I know is that 'I don't know' and I believe that anyone who says that they DO know is just making it up, given up, been duped, tricked, confused, or something worse. As long as they are happy and don't try to convert me, I'm OK with that.

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by dreyfusj: View Post
    So much to respond to I can't cover it all.
    Nurturetruth wonders "what was before the Big Bang ?" It appears there is an answer to that. I heard a leading British cosmologist on NPR no so long ago discussing the Big Bang and he was asked that very question. He said science is only slightly less confident in the answer to that question than they are in the fact of the Big Bang itself.
    The answer ? Nothing . According to science there was "nothing" and then there was a "singularity" and all the energy and matter in the universe was created instantaneously in an infinitesimally small dot and simultaneously exploded (the Big Bang) out into the universe as we know it.
    It seems to me that this version requires much more faith that is required to believe God created the universe. Also, the Big Bang theory does nothing to explain the historical fact of Jesus Christ which the God theory does nicely.
    I think I'll stick with the facts.
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  20. TopTop #20
    Tars's Avatar
    Tars
     

    Re: The Mind Of God

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by tomcat: View Post
    just where did this small dot of singularity come from? It had to come from somewhere, which is not nowhere, where nothing is.
    {lifts gaze from navel}
    Current most-accepted theory is that there are numerous universes. It is believed that some forms of energy or physical effect, most notably gravity, may move between the universes. If gravity, then why not matter? It's all really one, isn't it?

    If matter came to this universe from another, then it just extends the question out, and we wonder where it all originally came into being. I don't care, as it was numerous billions of years ago, and will be here at least numerous billions of years after my speck of awareness has flared out.

    I'm much more concerned with where that danged bunion on my toe came from, than I am with how the universe began.

    Perhaps the most effective way of dealing with how it all came to be, is via a platitude like, "think universally, act locally". It's an amusing little distraction to wonder & discuss the nature of the universe, & how our pet theory justifies our individual concept of God. But perhaps each of us can affect the nature of that universe the most by concerning ourselves mostly with what kind of energy we individually can contribute to our universe.
    {resumes navel fixation}
    Last edited by Tars; 04-18-2007 at 08:40 AM.
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  21. TopTop #21
    Dixon's Avatar
    Dixon
     

    Re: The Mind Of God

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by dreyfusj: View Post
    ...It seems to me that this version requires much more faith that is required to believe God created the universe.
    Please note that there is a HUGE difference between, on the one hand, faith in well-verified principles of reason and, on the other hand, the kind of "faith" that involves believing whatever superstition meets your needs on the basis of specious logic and wishful thinking.

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by dreyfusj: View Post
    Also, the Big Bang theory does nothing to explain the historical fact of Jesus Christ which the God theory does nicely.
    I think I'll stick with the facts.
    As a recovering ex-Christian (former Mormon and born-again fundamentalist preacher), I can only shake my head sadly at this kind of stuff.

    For those of you seeking a nice belief system that will allow you to indulge your natural tendencies toward misogyny, homophobia, self-centeredness, irrationality, repressive prudishness, planet-raping and imperialism, with the bonus of helping you deny the reality of unpleasantries such as uncertainty, (relative) powerlessness, and death, I heartily recommend conservative Christianity.

    Yecccchchhhhh!

    Yours in Christ :^)

    Dixon
    Last edited by Barry; 04-19-2007 at 10:47 PM.
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  22. TopTop #22
    dreyfusj's Avatar
    dreyfusj
     

    Re: The Mind Of God

    Wow ! I can no longer afford to leave my computer for a minute. Stay away a day and I've been " duped, tricked and confused" [tomcat], into "an amusing little distraction" [Tars] that might lead me to become a misogynistic, homophobic, irrational planet raper [Dixon].

    And here I thought I had merely used a reasonable intelligence to follow credible evidence and overcome a lifetime of training in atheism/agnosticism to independently arrive at the conclusion that Jesus Christ lived, died and rose again. I don't consider I was "duped or tricked" because I did it all myself. Jesus seems to me more than an "amusing distraction", indeed, if true, He is indisputably the single most important fact in human history. Finally, I got here believing in a human cause for global warming, driving a hybrid, recycling my trash and etc. Oh, and I don't recall hating any homosexuals, even as individuals, to say nothing of as a class.

    I shake my head sadly when what I believe to be the truth about Jesus is smeared with every sick, criminal and just plain lousy thing that has ever been done in His name and that list is endless.

    Set aside the criminals, the fakers, the takers, the phonies and the hypocrites and give Him a chance. The book says "whosoever believes in Him", not "Him and" anything. The rest of that stuff doesn't signify.

    In love. Jared
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  23. TopTop #23
    Tars's Avatar
    Tars
     

    Re: The Mind Of God

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by dreyfusj: View Post
    Wow ! I can no longer afford to leave my computer for a minute. Stay away a day and I've been " duped, tricked and confused" [tomcat], into "an amusing little distraction" [Tars] that might lead me to become a misogynistic, homophobic, irrational planet raper [Dixon].
    Clue: The discussion here's not about you, or your personal beliefs.

    Your devotion to your perspective is noted by all. You're welcomed, as are all, to entertain your own theories about the nature of the universe and/or God. Please don't feel like you need to share here again how wonderful it is. Suggest you start your own thread about your personal beliefs. Realize that it isn't an attack on you personally when others here chose to see things differently. Please try to extend them the same courtesy, OK?

    Again I reiterate this dreyfus, this discussion isn't about you personally, when I say that problems arise when zealots, whether Christianists, Islamists, atheists, or whatever, try to impose their personal theories on others who don't happen to share them. Friction results when an "ist" of any ilk uses a discussion to try and force feed others those religious beliefs. It's mainly just tedious. But, the friction starts getting white-hot when that zealot happens to be very powerful in our society, such as a president, senator, or supreme court judge, and force-feeds society their personal beliefs via formation of laws.

    I suppose we're lucky on one level, that the pols & people of power who would legislate our morals for us don't belong to the Church Of Screaming Obsceneties. What an obnoxious clatter that would be! No, their beliefs afflict us much more quietly.

    Rodney King asked a profound question. Profound because it can be applied so widely.

    Tars
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  24. TopTop #24
    mykil's Avatar
    mykil
    A Really Cute Guy

    Re: The Mind Of God

    I think just the PeeP's alone that have replied to this post would be enough to start a Christian Recovery Group! LOL! Not that there’s anything wrong with it! Teasing Dreyfus!

    On another note I have been keeping my eyes on lately. Over the last Thirty years or so Buddhism has increased by a tremendous amount, the following that Buddhism has now must be 100 fold in just the last twenty years. I think this might have allot to do with people actually using there own minds, and not being brain washed by our would be ancestors that had nothing better to do than read all day, in there pre TV, car, walkman, bicycle, CD player, Ipod, lack of people within ten minutes of them, easy going boring made-up lifestyle. I was reading a study a lady at Harvard did over the years. In 1970 and again in 1990, the average person spent an extra 173 hours per year working in 1990 compared to 1970. Why? This is a whole month worth of work per year! The simple reason is technology; we have the capabilities to stay in touch, staying focused, and keep on top of those that need to keep them motivated. With that in mind, do we really have room or time to continue the Christianity movement in our time? IT really takes up to much time in our busy life just to keep up with it, all the Sundayz, all the time spent volunteering at the Church fund raisers, all the church outings. Its no wonder people are shifting gears, I feel Buddhism will prevail as the leader in the new world, simple enough to follow five simple rules of engagement and so on and so on and so on… Peace and BTW I am not currently practicing any religion!
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  25. TopTop #25
    Dixon's Avatar
    Dixon
     

    Re: The Mind Of God

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by dreyfusj: View Post
    ...I had merely used a reasonable intelligence to follow credible evidence and overcome a lifetime of training in atheism/agnosticism to independently arrive at the conclusion that Jesus Christ lived, died and rose again.
    And I overcame a lifetime of training in Christianity to independently arrive at the conclusion that Jesus Christ, if he existed at all, died two millennia ago and that there's no reason to accept the bizarre belief that he rose from the dead. This theme of rising from the dead, like other aspects of the Jesus myth, is a relatively recent variation of the "solar hero" myth that stretches back to at least the Stone Age, predating Christianity by millennia. Here's a relevant quote:

    "In the first century of the common Era, there appeared at the eastern end of the Mediterranean a remarkable religious leader who taught the worship of one true God and declared that religion meant not the sacrifice of beasts but the practice of charity and piety and the shunning of hatred and enmity. He was said to have worked miracles of goodness, casting out demons, healing the sick, raising the dead. His exemplary life led some of his followers to claim he was the son of God, though he called himself the son of a man. Accused of sedition against Rome, he was arrested. After his death, his disciples claimed he had risen from the dead, appeared to them alive, and then ascended to heaven. Who was this teacher and wonder-worker? His name was Apollonius of Tyana; he died about 98 A.D., and his story may be read in Flavius Philostratus's 'Life of Apollonius'.

    "Readers who too hastily presumed that the preceding described Apollonius's slightly earlier contemporary, Jesus of Nazareth, may be forgiven their error if they will reflect how readily the human imagination embroiders the careers of notable figures of the past with common mythical and fictional embellishments." (from 'Gospel Fictions' by Randel Helms).

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by dreyfusj: View Post
    Jesus seems to me more than an "amusing distraction", indeed, if true, He is indisputably the single most important fact in human history
    Well if, as you say, you're not a homophobe or a planet-raper, that's great; you sound more enlightened than conservative Christians. However, your phrase "...if true, He is indisputably the single most important fact in human history" is quite ethnocentric, not to mention insulting to the billions who don't see this "indisputable" fact as being true and have the temerity to believe in other gods for whom the evidence is every bit as good (or bad) as the evidence for Jesus.

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by dreyfusj: View Post
    ...give Him a chance.
    I did give Him (sic) a chance, Jared, for years. "He" didn't work.

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by dreyfusj: View Post
    The book says "whosoever believes in Him"...
    "The book" also explicitly endorses slavery, imperialism, homophobia and misogyny. And if you claim not to be misogynistic, why are you invoking a "Him" rather than a "Her"? The last I heard, Christians worshipped a triune God with one neuter and two male aspects--no allowance for the feminine at all, divinity apparently being a trait that's carried on the Y chromosome. What a slap in the face to women! I'll believe you're not misogynistic when you induct a goddess of equal power into your pantheon. Patriarchy sucks--and not even very well!

    Blessings;

    Dixon
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  26. TopTop #26
    "Mad" Miles
     

    Why I think Christianity really sucks.

    Regarding Dixon's able critique of Christianity:

    What he said!

    And in addition.

    One of my major and primary objections to the religion that I was reared in (pun intended) and of which I was a devout late adolescent practitioner from the spring of 1972 to the spring of 1975 was its Platonic philosophical basis.

    If, as Hellenistic Platonists led by Saul of Tarsus* believed, the material world, Life On This Planet, is a secondary, corrupt and inherently flawed and damaged copy of the Real World of Spirit, then everything we experience in life is incomplete and unimportant in comparison to that "real" realm of Spirit. (i.e. relation to GOD, Heaven, Salvation and All That)

    *aka St. Paul who wrote all the "Letters to The ***" in the New Testament.

    I find this to be a flawed, unsatisfactory and profoundly dismissive understanding of lived, embodied experience. If there is a conscious creative entity responsible for it all, then this view is profoundly insulting to "its/their" creative efforts.

    For me the jury is still out on the questions of "where did it all come from, who's in charge." I choose to "Let the Mystery Be" as Iris DeMent so well put it.

    I focus on what is in front of me, biological life. My own, and life in general. On the rest I have a wait and see, and let's not worry about it, attitude.

    And please don't pull the, "rationality is inadequate, we must have faith" Trope. Of course it is, but Reason is all we've got! The real question is which system of Reason do you apply to your critical inquiries?

    As I claimed back in the spring of '75, while initiating the seduction of my first lover (or was I the innocent lamb swayed by a woman of the world? There's evidence for both sides of that interpretation!) all systems of thought, whether scientific or spiritual (or some combination derived from all of the above) are based on acts of faith. Faith here defined as the making of a claim of Truth that is not supported, or supportable, by rational justification using verifiable evidence.

    In Science it is the belief that the evidence of our senses bears some relationship to the real world. While that is a complicated and interesting question* it is still the best foundation for intellectual inquiry that I've heard about. As for ghosts, spirits, Gods and Goddesses, hey, have fun, but don't try to dominate me or scare the children and animals. If you want to wig out over the mystical, be my guest, just don't do it in my house uninvited. And that invitation will be a long time coming.

    * Let's hear it for the English Rationalists, Berkeley, Locke and Hume!!! In Da HOUSE! And if it weren't for old Rene, where would they have found someone to argue about and with? Zut!

    After my rejection of the Christian version of reality, I came up with this:

    Did you know that Christianity is the only major world religion that practices ritual cannibalism and uses an instrument of torture and execution as its primary symbol?

    Those are an irrefutable set of facts. And hopefully not comfortable ones for Christians.

    Perhaps from that perspective, even a Christian can understand the revulsion and antipathy that many feel for their belief system. And let's not forget the acts of terror, brutality and slaughter consistently and thoroughly done in the name of Christ. Of course, Christianity is not the only religion used for evil, but so far, at this point in human history, it is the most dominant and successful religion deployed in the interest of Conquest and Empire. Lessen ya count Marxist-Leninism, which gave it a good run for its money in the last century, but seems (thankfully) to be down and out for the mo'.

    If Christians practiced what they claim is the core of their belief; Love, Forgiveness and Charity, then perhaps my resentment, nay RAGE, against it would be ameliorated. This assessment is based on my experience as a devout Jesus Freak for three years, my reading of history, and my other experiences for the last thirty-two years.

    Those experiences led me to conclude that when it comes to the larger denominations of Protestantism, and for Catholicism, it's all hype, lip service to those values. It's a shallow and transparent justification for a hypocritical adherence to values which are, in practice, a cover for the opposite of those claimed values; Rage, Vengeance and Greed.

    The truth will out. Actions speak louder than words. And a system based on the denial of Life and its Value for the Living, is going to produce some sick, twisted results. It only stands to, yeah I'm gonna affirm it!, REASON. (Whatever that means....)

    It's a beautiful morning.

    Cheers Babies!

    "M"M

    P.S. Please don't think that in spite of my devastating critique (at least in my own over-inflated arrogant opinion!) of the belief system known as Christianity, that I don't recognize some of its positive contributions to history.

    Many of the best anti-apartheid, anti-nuclear (power and weapons), anti-intervention in Central America, anti-militarist, etc., etc., activists that I've worked with over the years have been, are, Christians. And they were motivated to act by their commitment to Christian values.

    But also many of the best, most dedicated activists were/are Socialists, or Anarchists, or Rationalist/Humanists, or just regular nice well-meaning average types without any strong ideological and/or spiritual motivation.
    And most used combinations of all of the ways of thinking I've just listed.

    And some were motivated by non-Christian Spiritual/Religious beliefs such as Islam, Buddhism, Taoism, Paganism, Hinduism, Zoroastrianism, Zen both secular and Buddhist, Atheism, Agnosticism, Ong-Yangism, Animism, Flying Spaghetti Monsterism, Church of Bobism, you name it!

    But most, for whatever reasons, were trying to do the right thing and stop the greedy, ignorantly selfish and rude from hurting them and others. How they interpreted the origin of the universe, and how it's run was either secondary, or irrelevant, to the struggle at hand.

    And where would African-Americans be without the support and solidarity of their churches? The struggle against brutal discriminatory laws and forces would have been very different without Black Protestantism.

    It's also a great story, among many others, that has enriched our culture. And I have certainly been marked by it. I still, within "Reason", practice love, forgiveness and charity, even if the system that inculcated it into me is no longer part of my belief.

    And perhaps, no matter the religion of the day, humans will always find ways to pervert and exploit spirituality to further their own selfish ends.

    But if a system is inherently, fundamentally, imbedded in the very fabric of its philosophical basis, a life-denying, life-denigrating and life-reducing way of thinking, and I've realized that by participating in it and reading its primary texts very closely, over and over. Then, well, maybe believers need to rethink the project. Perhaps even reject it for something a little more consistent and life affirming.

    One thing I personally gained from being a youthful Jesus Freak was that in going to Bible studies I first experienced the pleasures and benefits of sitting around with a group of sympathetic and like-minded people while closely reading and discussing a text. That started me on the path to Philosophy and seventeen years of reading, discussing and occasionally writing about Social and Political Philosophy / Theory. And for that, and the knowledge gained therein that led me away from simplistic stories for gullible children I thank all the Christians in the world, past, present and future.

    Last edited by "Mad" Miles; 04-21-2007 at 12:10 PM. Reason: Change it's to its
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  27. TopTop #27

    Re: The Mind Of God

    [quote=dreyfusj;28372]Wow ! I can no longer afford to leave my computer for a minute. Stay away a day and I've been " duped, tricked and confused" [tomcat], into "an amusing little distraction" [Tars] that might lead me to become a misogynistic, homophobic, irrational planet raper [Dixon].

    Well, for my part in this dreyfusj, When I said...

    "All I know is that 'I don't know' and I believe that anyone who says that they DO know is just making it up, given up, been duped, tricked, confused, or something worse. As long as they are happy and don't try to convert me, I'm OK with that."

    ...I was giving KNOWERS the benefit of the doubt and a menu to pick from. The "something worse" was a fill in the blank, but 'fooling themselves' might fit in there nicely.
    I do appreciate it tho that you recycle and all that. Keep up the good work.
    Tom
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  28. TopTop #28
    Nirmala
    Guest

    Re: The Mind Of God

    The world is a fascinating, wonderful, magical place filled with loving caring people and also containing the opposite. So, how do we wrap our minds around the extremes of gluttony and starvation, killing and compassion that surround us? Religion seems to be one of the answers yet because there are so many people with so many differing interests, skills, abilities and experiences we have many religions. Rather than using your religion or lack of, as a weapon to fight against others of different religions, I suggest this. Explore your own religion or belief system and see what it has to tell you about how to live today on this planet. What are the ethical guidelines and how can you live/embody them? Don't waste your precious life energy trying to disprove a different belief. Be the best agnostic, Christian, Buddhist, Hindu, or whatever, you can be. Stop blaming and look within. And if you do want to spend time grappling with the metaphysical questions, then live in the wonder of the question. Keep that wonderful beautiful mind open and spacious, don't harden over what you don't know or what you think you do know.
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  29. TopTop #29
    dreyfusj's Avatar
    dreyfusj
     

    Re: The Mind Of God

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by mykil: View Post
    With that in mind, do we really have room or time to continue the Christianity movement in our time? IT really takes up to much time in our busy life just to keep up with it, all the Sundayz, all the time spent volunteering at the Church fund raisers, all the church outings.
    mykil - Its really much worse than that. If I understand it correctly (unlikely), you have to do it ALL the time to EVERYBODY. I have to (try to) love Bush, Cheney, Dobson and etc and etc all the time along with everybody else. And I always thought Christianity was the easy way out. I can do the Sundayz and the Bible studies and the prayer groups and the potlucks and the whatevers, but if I do them without love, they're nothing, 1 Corinthians 13. Ouch.
    In love. Jared
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  30. TopTop #30
    dreyfusj's Avatar
    dreyfusj
     

    Re: The Mind Of God

    his story may be read in Flavius Philostratus's 'Life of Apollonius'.

    I googled around a bit and found a good deal of material on Appollonius, but not the details you mention. Everything I did find (e.g. https://dangerousidea.blogspot.com/2...c-element.html ) suggests a story and provenance rather different that Jesus'

    insulting to the billions who don't see this "indisputable" fact as being true and have the temerity to believe in other gods

    Well, I prefaced my observation with "if true", so the billions that don't believe it don't have to bother with it. However, I submit that "if true", the Gospel story of a direct intervention into the affairs of men by God is pretty important. Of course, if it isn't true it's either less than nothing or something much worse.


    for whom the evidence is every bit as good (or bad) as the evidence for Jesus.

    This is the point we keep not getting to, i.e., the quality of the evidence for Jesus, but we've got time.


    I did give Him (sic) a chance, Jared, for years. "He" didn't work.

    In all seriousness and sincerity I would be interested in knowing how He failed you.


    I'll believe you're not misogynistic when you induct a goddess of equal power into your pantheon.

    Above my paygrade I'm afraid. There is much I don't understand about God, the issue of the treatment of women among them, but I don't find my confusion very surprising. I sometimes equate God revealing Himself to me with me attempting to explain quantum physics to my dog.

    In love. Jared
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