What The Secret means to me...

[Zeno Swijtink]

I watched this movie recently and thought it was infantile

Not so much since a silly metaphysical superstructure is given to the simple truth that a happy and open-minded person is more attractive and relaxed, and less likely to trip over a banana peel and make a fool of himself. (Yes, quantum theory is evoked again to make the audience swoon.)

It was infantile since in the video The Secret was used solely to satisfy infantile desires: the breathtaking necklace, the fast car, the stunning partner. All material and private desires.

Maybe those who hold The Secret can ask for World Peace next time, or some other urgent collective good?

Thanks!

[PeteS]

I have seen The Secret several times and share it with people whenever I can because I feel it is a part of the solution to creating a world of peace and plenty for everyone. If each person on this planet realized they are one with everything around them, that in absolute reality there is no real separation between individuals, whether they be people, animals, plants, rocks, stars..., then their priorities would change to caring for everyone and everything. And in this process they realize the power within them to attract to them, or create around them, a world that supports them in the ways they most desire, then there would be no war, or hunger, or coveting, or bullying; everyone would take care of their neighbor as themselves.

This is what The Secret reveals to me in the scenes where the man in the airplane accident heals himself; the woman heals her breast cancer; the part where Mother Teresa is quoted as saying, "when you hold a rally for peace I'll come" because she knew that you create what you focus on, and if you focus on what you're against, you get more of that, not less.

The flashy parts of the movie may deal with material things, but I feel the bulk of the movie is about bringing life into balance. A few quotes, well paraphrasing, from my notes:

"Money is only part of wealth; relationship, spirit, happiness are all parts";

"Basic program we are born with is Self Healing. See self in perfectly healthy body; there is big difference between being fearful and being hopeful";

"Create own world and allow others to create their world; there is more than enough for everyone... Love, joy, Peace, food...";

"What makes you feel good, brings you more; do what resonates with your heart";

"Welcome message for your first day on earth: There is nothing you cannot do; you are a powerful creator; decide and give attention to that; collect data to decide; then focus and you create it. Think properly; power within will care for you -- FOR SURE!"

As to the question of where does the shit in our lives come from; that is a complex answer that involves, culture, genes, family, history, etc. I feel The Secret addresses this question in the most direct way: start today to create something different. We can do counseling, therapy, personal growth workshops, and on and on, as we work to unravel the secret of our own, personal life, which is all good, but in the end we have to allow our good to manifest through us. This process is helped and speeded up when we realize we can heal whatever "shit" is in our life by applying the principles revealed in The Secret.

To people in New Thought spiritual centers The Secret is not new; nor is it to anyone that has studied metaphysics, western philosophy, eastern philosophy, East Indian philosophy, indigenous people's philosophies; what is called the Law of Attraction is one principle out of many that point to us as the creators, or maybe better said, co-creators of our life experience. I love The Secret movie because it brings these principles to an audience that may not otherwise find them in the busyness of our contemporary lives.

I publish, via email, a daily poem, or mini meditation, Law of Attraction in Action. The idea behind each one is to bring the reader into the present moment, this moment where creation springs forth fresh and new. If you're interested in receiving these send me an email, [email protected], and I'll add you to the list, another email gets you off the list, if it isn't "your cup of tea".

Enjoy the beauty of the world, it is your reflection...

Peter Stickney

Only Love Prevails

https://IamBalance.com
https://SharePrayer.com
https://prayasone.powerfulintentions.com/

[Dixon]

Zeno

Thanks for your rational response to this movie. After wasting my time and $$ on the "What the Bleep..." movie, I decided not to see this "Secret" movie, and from what you say, I made the right choice.

So much of what passes for spirituality is all about $$ and other forms of power, as with the quantum superpower BS in "What the Bleep..." (and apparently in "The Secret" too).

I'm reminded of an email that showed up in my inbox about a year ago. Though it was from a woman I know to be intelligent, it was the most infantile blather imaginable, asking god for prosperity ($$) and encouraging me to forward it to 10 other people to improve my luck ($$), or some such piffle. So "spirituality" in this case--as is so often the case--consisted of begging god for money.

This kind of thing just reinforces my belief that most of what gets called "spirituality" is money-grubbing, self-serving infantile BS. The more displays of such "spirituality" I see (and they're constantly on display on Wacco), the happier I am to be a rationalistic, skeptical atheist. I may be flattering myself, but it seems that I have more real spirituality in my little atheistic finger than any ten horoscope-casting, kirtan-chanting, psychic healing west county "sacred" flimflam practitioners, LOL!

Blessings!

Dixon

I watched this movie recently and thought it was infantile

Not so much since a silly metaphysical superstructure is given to the simple truth that a happy and open-minded person is more attractive and relaxed, and less likely to trip over a banana peel and make a fool of himself. (Yes, quantum theory is evoked again to make the audience swoon.)

It was infantile since in the video The Secret was used solely to satisfy infantile desires: the breathtaking necklace, the fast car, the stunning partner. All material and private desires.

Maybe those who hold The Secret can ask for World Peace next time, or some other urgent collective good?

Thanks!

[alanora]

I watched this movie recently and thought it was infantile

Not so much since a silly metaphysical superstructure is given to the simple truth that a happy and open-minded person is more attractive and relaxed, and less likely to trip over a banana peel and make a fool of himself. (Yes, quantum theory is evoked again to make the audience swoon.)

It was infantile since in the video The Secret was used solely to satisfy infantile desires: the breathtaking necklace, the fast car, the stunning partner. All material and private desires.

Maybe those who hold The Secret can ask for World Peace next time, or some other urgent collective good?

Thanks!

For those who are interested in the beliefs espoused in "the Secret" there is a center in our midst, formerly the SR church of Religious science, where people come together and reinforce these ideas through services, classes and a lovely book store. I first found it, probably a dozen years ago, and was awed by the fact that people actually dared to say these things(God is all there is) and attempt to live them. Services are celebratory in nature, there is music at the second and third service on Sunday mornings, and a wednesday evening boost as well. Very little dogma. Remember, attitude and perception are everything! Mindy

[Juggledude]

Zeno

Thanks for your rational response to this movie. After wasting my time and $$ on the "What the Bleep..." movie, I decided not to see this "Secret" movie, and from what you say, I made the right choice.

So much of what passes for spirituality is all about $$ and other forms of power, as with the quantum superpower BS in "What the Bleep..." (and apparently in "The Secret" too).

I'm reminded of an email that showed up in my inbox about a year ago. Though it was from a woman I know to be intelligent, it was the most infantile blather imaginable, asking god for prosperity ($$) and encouraging me to forward it to 10 other people to improve my luck ($$), or some such piffle. So "spirituality" in this case--as is so often the case--consisted of begging god for money.

This kind of thing just reinforces my belief that most of what gets called "spirituality" is money-grubbing, self-serving infantile BS. The more displays of such "spirituality" I see (and they're constantly on display on Wacco), the happier I am to be a rationalistic, skeptical atheist. I may be flattering myself, but it seems that I have more real spirituality in my little atheistic finger than any ten horoscope-casting, kirtan-chanting, psychic healing west county "sacred" flimflam practitioners, LOL!

Blessings!

Dixon

Hey Dixon!

Well met. I gotta stand up and disagree with you a little bit here. I haven't seen the "Secret" so will keep quiet on that point, but I got alot out of what the bleep, and have put some of what I got to good productive use in my life. I respect that your personal views and thought processes found no benefit or resonace with the ideas put forth there, though I take umbrage at your cavalier dismissal of the spiritual value others may find. Spirituality is a very personal and subjective experience. I respect your experience of your own spirituality as being genuine and abundant, and would like to imagine a world where each and every one of us could respect the spritual experience of others, especially when they differ from our own.

I too percieve much marketing and hype in the spiritual component of the mass media stream we are all subject too, here on wacco as well as in other venues. Yet, I can imagine that even the rev. billy graham and other televangelists provide a real value to those who are touched by their diatribes. Who are you or I to pass judgement upon the subjective value Joe Hick gets from sending half his paycheck to the ministry? At least here in the West County, the majority of the practitioners are sincere and believe in their dogma. This place of non judgement is a hard place to stand, but one of useful perspective, imho.

Royce

[Zeno Swijtink]

I wonder why we, in this community, are so often approached with a movie, book, or workshop that "will radically change your life"?

I mean, how often can you radically change your life?? Why do they think our life needs to be radically changed all the time?

Zeno

Hey Dixon!

Well met. I gotta stand up and disagree with you a little bit here. I haven't seen the "Secret" so will keep quiet on that point, but I got alot out of what the bleep, and have put some of what I got to good productive use in my life. I respect that your personal views and thought processes found no benefit or resonace with the ideas put forth there, though I take umbrage at your cavalier dismissal of the spiritual value others may find. Spirituality is a very personal and subjective experience. I respect your experience of your own spirituality as being genuine and abundant, and would like to imagine a world where each and every one of us could respect the spritual experience of others, especially when they differ from our own.

I too percieve much marketing and hype in the spiritual component of the mass media stream we are all subject too, here on wacco as well as in other venues. Yet, I can imagine that even the rev. billy graham and other televangelists provide a real value to those who are touched by their diatribes. Who are you or I to pass judgement upon the subjective value Joe Hick gets from sending half his paycheck to the ministry? At least here in the West County, the majority of the practitioners are sincere and believe in their dogma. This place of non judgement is a hard place to stand, but one of useful perspective, imho.

Royce

[Clancy]

Possibly perceived as gullible, but it's not just this community. Millions of people live 'lives of quiet desperation' as Thoreau said, and are sincerely hoping to improve it. Lots of people are cashing in on this human truth.

I wonder why we, in this community, are so often approached with a movie, book, or workshop that "will radically change your life"?

[Zeno Swijtink]

Beautiful quotation! "Most men lead lives of quiet desperation and go to the grave with the song still in them."

I wonder what makes a person break out of that live of quiet desperation, and sing one's song, rather that go to the grave with the song still in them, as Thoreau says.

I tend to think that there is an element of luck involved: meeting with the right crisis that takes courage to confront, and that sets one on a path of singing since there is no alternative anymore.

Possibly perceived as gullible, but it's not just this community. Millions of people live 'lives of quiet desperation' as Thoreau said, and are sincerely hoping to improve it. Lots of people are cashing in on this human truth.

[Clancy]

Your thoughful comments remind me of that old gospel tune;

How Can I Keep From Singing

My life goes on in endless song
above earth's lamentations,
I hear the real, though far-off hymn
that hails a new creation.

Above the tumult and the strife
I hear it's music ringing,
It sounds an echo in my soul.
How can I keep from singing?

While though the tempest loudly roars,
I hear the truth, it liveth.
While though the darkness 'round me close,
songs in the night it giveth.

No storm can shake my inmost calm,
while to that rock I'm clinging.
Since love is lord of heaven and earth
how can I keep from singing?

Eva Cassidy did a stunning version, it's in the Sonoma County library system if you're interested, a CD called Eva By Heart.

Beautiful quotation! "Most men lead lives of quiet desperation and go to the grave with the song still in them."

I wonder what makes a person break out of that live of quiet desperation, and sing one's song, rather that go to the grave with the song still in them, as Thoreau says.

I tend to think that there is an element of luck involved: meeting with the right crisis that takes courage to confront, and that sets one on a path of singing since there is no alternative anymore.

[Barry]

I tend to think that there is an element of luck involved: meeting with the right crisis that takes courage to confront, and that sets one on a path of singing since there is no alternative anymore.

That's just what happened to me! I met the "right" crisis that took courage to confront (though that's not what it felt like at the time, I just hung in there for dear life, through many a dark night of the soul) and that set me on this path (WaccoBB.net) of "singing" my song, since there is no alternative!

I have found the process both challenging and exhilarating. It's been a wonderful mirror to confront my fears, sing my song and practice manifestation! One thing that surely got left behind was the prison of comfort and security!

[alanora]

Your thoughful comments remind me of that old gospel tune;

How Can I Keep From Singing

My life goes on in endless song
above earth's lamentations,
I hear the real, though far-off hymn
that hails a new creation.

Above the tumult and the strife
I hear it's music ringing,
It sounds an echo in my soul.
How can I keep from singing?

While though the tempest loudly roars,
I hear the truth, it liveth.
While though the darkness 'round me close,
songs in the night it giveth.

No storm can shake my inmost calm,
while to that rock I'm clinging.
Since love is lord of heaven and earth
how can I keep from singing?

Eva Cassidy did a stunning version, it's in the Sonoma County library system if you're interested, a CD called Eva By Heart.

Was also done beautifully on an enya album, or was it susan osborn......or both.....

[alanora]

That's just what happened to me! I met the "right" crisis that took courage to confront (though that's not what it felt like at the time, I just hung in there for dear life, through many a dark night of the soul) and that set me on this path (WaccoBB.net) of "singing" my song, since there is no alternative!

I have found the process both challenging and exhilarating. It's been a wonderful mirror to confront my fears, sing my song and practice manifestation! One thing that surely got left behind was the prison of comfort and security!

Mindy here. Thank you for stepping out of your comfort zone and providing me with my morning pulse of the neighborhood read. It looks so natural and seamless, like you had forever been doing this with never a doubt or a fear. I think hitting fifty has something to do with the attitude that lessens impact of others thoughts and opinions. You have allowed me space to practice stepping out and seeing what happens as well. Very surprising to me what gathers steam and what just fizzles. Being who you are seems like the safest route after all... lest being gone and having the pain of being hidden the whole time. Our souls clamor for complete expression, and you have provided an earthly arena for us all. Thanks again. Mindy

[Zeno Swijtink]

I also met the right crisis, way back when I was eleven years old. And somehow over the next few years I was able to see my personal pain in a bigger, almost cosmic context.

Looking back at it there seems to have been no rational ground for this, almost like being touched by grace.

Today I was listening to a podcast from "A World of Possibilities" about the AIDS/HIV pandemic ravishing Africa, which now in particularly affects women.

https://www.aworldofpossibilities.com/details.cfm?id=279

https://www.aworldofpossibilities.com/action/info193.html

The story told by Annie Kaseketi, a minister from Lusaka, Zambia, whose husband and children were cut down by AIDS, is a moving tale of a woman who transformed deep despair into a clear and steady vision of what is real, and what needs to be done.

That's just what happened to me! I met the "right" crisis that took courage to confront (though that's not what it felt like at the time, I just hung in there for dear life, through many a dark night of the soul) and that set me on this path (WaccoBB.net) of "singing" my song, since there is no alternative!

I have found the process both challenging and exhilarating. It's been a wonderful mirror to confront my fears, sing my song and practice manifestation! One thing that surely got left behind was the prison of comfort and security!

[Jupiter13]

Loreena McKennitt sang it on one of her albums.

Was also done beautifully on an enya album, or was it susan osborn......or both.....

[Clancy]

Nicely done too, so was Enya's version. But Eva Cassidy's version is absolutely amazing. It's like the best rocking gospel song you've ever heard.

Loreena McKennitt sang it on one of her albums.

[tomh]

I watched this movie recently and thought it was infantile

Not so much since a silly metaphysical superstructure is given to the simple truth that a happy and open-minded person is more attractive and relaxed, and less likely to trip over a banana peel and make a fool of himself. (Yes, quantum theory is evoked again to make the audience swoon.)

It was infantile since in the video The Secret was used solely to satisfy infantile desires: the breathtaking necklace, the fast car, the stunning partner. All material and private desires.

Maybe those who hold The Secret can ask for World Peace next time, or some other urgent collective good?

Thanks!

I couldn't agree with you more, Zeno. It's appetitive religion, dressed up for the New Age. And, yes, I too had to hang on tight when quantum theory was invoked -- they almost got me there, but I kept my balance. God really is a cuddly Santa Claus in the sky, isn't HE? There, just to grant our wishes for luxurious mansions and better looking girl friends? And, yes!! Damnit!! Why don't those who have the capacity to manifest anything they desire, MANIFEST WORLD PEACE????? It either tells you a lot about them, or, a lot about this anything-is-possible business, doesn't it?
-- Tom

[Zeno Swijtink]

The Secret is why i decided to "totally commit to the transformation of the world" you may find it interesting to do a search of my postings and be amused by the method behind my madness (crazy like a fox).
Reverend Nan Sea Love
https://www.YourKindnessMatters.org

Anyone remembers the movie Themrock? I saw it when I was in my early twenties, in 1972, when it came out. In Amsterdam.

I got this synopsis somewhere from the web: "Michel Piccoli plays Themroc, whose boring life and depressing job finally causes him to crack up. Themroc causes mayhem at work, seduces his sister, eats a policeman for dinner and turns his flat into a cave. The neighbors pretend there is nothing wrong and media coverage causes more and more of Paris to follow his example."

This was a "liberating" movie of the 70s. We felt great walking out the cinema. And the film probably had some impacts on how we then lead our lives, on the things we did, on our social and sexual relations.

But, as I remember it, Themrock did not pretend to present The Theory of Everything, The Final Insight of What It Is All About. What's going on in this new millennium?

[Sonomamark]

Zeno, Dixon et al: I'm a bit late to this party, but I find this discusson interesting. To me, the question at the heart of this is: what is it that repeatedly draws so many--especially of the "spiritually seeking" type, whether they end up Oming over crystals or waving their hands in the air for Jesus--to a single-answer "magic bullet" that will supposedly solve all their problems?

I mean, it's a nice dream. It's the dream of a child: Big Mommy or Daddy (read, God, Goddess, Jesus, Buddha, the Great Spirit, the Creator, the Cosmic Energy) is going to solve all my problems now. It's attractive to believe that simply adopting a lens of perspective, a belief system, a practice, an herbal supplement, or a series of rituals can suddenly make life a perfect dream.

But here on Planet Earth, that's not the life we primates get to live. Life, for all its many joys, discoveries and beauties, also involves struggle, disappointment, changes of plans, unexpected loss, and opportunities squandered. Roads not taken. Mistakes made. That's just how it is. The world doesn't owe us anything: we're born, we live, we die. Those are the only guarantees. Ask a Somali refugee, or someone from the 9th Ward in New Orleans.

I find that that Americans--particularly those raised in an affluent context--are especially prone to this kind of delusional seeking. Mostly because they have the luxury of putting time and money into "developing themselves" rather than simple survival, but also because they carry such a presumption of entitlement. Much of what can be characterized as "California New Agism" is self-worship based in the core beliefs of an 8-year-old: "I deserve to have everything I want, and if I don't get it, there must be something wrong." This is sometimes framed as some kind of "enlightenment" which contributes to "healing the world" or other grandiosity, but it comes down to narcissism, as I've seen it.

In my experience, most people from other societies have a far less "epic" sense of themselves and their lives, and are therefore less resentful and disappointed, and less prone to chase castles in the air which they believe will make their lives a perfect dream.

["Mad" Miles]

Dear Waccies,

Read this in today's PD. Thought it might appeal to my fellow skeptics.

"Mad" Miles


********************************************************
Self-help gone nutty

A craze called 'The Secret' blends Tony Robbins with 'The Da Vinci Code,' telling people to have it all without trying.

By Karin Klein, KARIN KLEIN is a Times editorial writer.
February 13, 2007


WHEN MY SISTER arrived from New York over the holidays, she plopped a hand-tooled leather satchel on my piano bench and said, "See the beautiful bag I manifested for myself?" Gorgeous, indeed. But manifested?

Well, I suppose that's easier than dealing in cash.

"Manifesting," for those outside the self-help loop, is the big buzzword from "The Secret," a new DVD with a tie-in book featuring the ancient idea of having it all without trying very hard. If "The Secret" had a plot, it might go something like "Tony Robbins uncovers the Judas Gospel and learns to use the Force."

The DVD is screened regularly at gatherings of the energy-healer crowd. The video opens with a "Da Vinci Code"-style shot: A man in a ragged tunic makes off with a hot papyrus. A voice-over assures us that an ancient secret, hidden from most of mankind, is about to be revealed. (Insert little conspiracy montage: A medieval priestly type privately unrolls the secret scroll; men in suits scheme in a smoke-filled boardroom.) Then motivational speakers take turns elaborating on this idea: If you want something, think of it with loving and positive feelings and it will "manifest." The concept apparently stems from the work of Esther Hicks, a famous channeler.

I never would have heard of "The Secret" if it weren't for my sister, the sort of person who has a spirit guide and professes to "massage energy." (Friends say the wrong sister moved to California.) But apparently it has found major cultural traction. It was featured on "Oprah" last week. The book is No. 4 on The Times' nonfiction bestseller list and No. 2 on Amazon (with the audio CD set No. 3). At my local Barnes & Noble, it was sold out.

Americans are never too jaded for another get-rich-quick chimera. In "The Secret," real and sustained effort is unnecessary, even frowned on. The scheme lays out a "law of attraction" — a strange misreading of quantum physics — that asserts that the universe grants your wishes because you are the "most powerful transmission tower on in the world." Send out "wealth frequencies" with your thoughts and the universe's wealth frequencies will be pulled to you.

Here was my favorite bit: "Food is not responsible for putting on weight. It is your thought that food is responsible for putting on weight that actually has food put on weight." It's a position that seems to have a lot in common with President Bush's ideas about global warming. Carbon emissions warm the Earth only if you worry that they will.

On the flip side, nothing — nothing — happens to people that isn't brought to them by their own persistent thoughts, and the book strongly implies that this includes those killed in the Holocaust and the World Trade Center. Under this philosophy, why bother contributing to Oxfam or worrying about Darfur? What a guilt-reliever.

Near as I can tell, the whole idea is just a new spin on the very old (and decidedly not secret) "The Power of Positive Thinking" wedded to "ask and you shall receive." So it's not surprising that its author, Australian TV producer Rhonda Byrne, is best known for a show called "The World's Greatest Commercials." Warming over others' old work appears to be her area of expertise. She took the well-worn ideas of some self-help gurus, customized them for the profoundly lazy, gave them a veneer of mysticism — and she tapped right into that wealth frequency. What a pro.

Strange to say, people are buying it. Not just the book and DVD. The message. Therapists tell me they're starting to see clients who are headed for real trouble, immersing themselves in a dream world in which good things just come. The therapists obviously ought to visualize smarter clients.

My sister says I'm over-intellectualizing. She, after all, had manifested a fine leather satchel. And I have to admit, if there were designer leather goods to be had out of this, I was interested.

The reality was — drat it all — far more prosaic. Watching the DVD gave her the idea that she could afford this bag if she really wanted it, and so she went ahead and charged it. I say, if you need an Amex card to make a handbag appear, you're an amateur.

[Clancy]

While I'm all for healthy skepticism, I think we may be throwing the baby out with the bath water. From what I gather, the 'secret' isn't that you just believe and whatever you want is automatically gifted to you, it's that you affirm and allow for the possibility of what you want and thus it's far more likely to happen than otherwise, but you still have to try.

Dear Waccies,

Read this in today's PD. Thought it might appeal to my fellow skeptics.

"Mad" Miles


********************************************************
Self-help gone nutty

A craze called 'The Secret' blends Tony Robbins with 'The Da Vinci Code,' telling people to have it all without trying.

[tomcat]

True, no matter how hard you try, if you don't have a ticket with the winning numbers, you can't win the lottery.
Tom

While I'm all for healthy skepticism, I think we may be throwing the baby out with the bath water. From what I gather, the 'secret' isn't that you just believe and whatever you want is automatically gifted to you, it's that you affirm and allow for the possibility of what you want and thus it's far more likely to happen than otherwise, but you still have to try.

[Mita Moni]

A friend invited me over to watch a spiritual movie saying that if I liked I could join her and another woman in their subscription to this spiritual movies series. What I saw was a hokie short then a longer one, "The Secret" in which various people talk about how they made more money and moved into a huge mansion in So. Cal. by focusing on what they wanted. This is not my idea of spirituality, infact it is almost the opposite. Greed is not spiritual. One of the most spiritual activities is to live in a way that leaves plently left over for other people, animals, and plants. Barrie

True, no matter how hard you try, if you don't have a ticket with the winning numbers, you can't win the lottery.
Tom

["Mad" Miles]

"Greed is not spiritual. One of the most spiritual activities is to live in a way that leaves plently left over for other people, animals, and plants."

Well and nicely put! Thank you.

I've avoided weighing in recently on this "with enough attention/intention one can achieve whatever one wants" debate because others in the "skeptics" camp, of which I count myself a member, have ably defended the cause. But I do see a neutral ground. I learned thirty years ago that I was more likely to find what I was looking for, than what I'm not looking for. If that is all the "Secret" means, then cool. A banal patently obvious cool but still, cool.

I would like to comment on another thread, with a similar theme, in which Reason has been upheld as the final arbiter in disputes about scientific claims, etc. I think this was last upheld by Mark Green / sonomamarc (Please don't go! I, for one, always enjoy your contributions, even when we disagree about Nader, the Dems and the Greens) and seconded by Clancy in the SODS treatment / professional qualifications discussion.

Reason: OK, which kind? Western Positivistic either/or logic? Advanced Post-Structuralist / Deconstructivist Post-Heideggarian descended from Hegel Dialectical reason? Buddhist / Zen koan mystical reason? Some other mode of organized, self-consistent intelligent thinking? All of the above? (Sorry, can't do that, they are different systems, sometimes antithetical.)

Much of the Social Theory / Political Philosophy that I devoted my twenties and early thirties to were schools of thought that primarily engaged in the critique of what was often called "Western Reason". So Reason as the be all and end all of "proper" thinking is a highly contested ground.

Especially when we're dealing with the social and psychological. What people do is rarely determined by what is "reasonable". Self-interest, habit, preconceived modes of thinking and acting handed down from previous generations, in short the irrational, have as much, if not more, to do with human behaviour as any semblance of rational thought. That understanding is the beginning of rational discourse about the social and personal.

And don't forget Goya quoting Goethe, "The Dream of Reason leads to" (or produces) "Monsters." A Truth which "Pan's Labyrinth" ably demonstrates.

(Hah! Who among you doubted I'd end up referring to the movies!)

Cheers Folks. Todd Snider at the Mystic was phenomonal last night. I've got my Robert Earl Keen ticket for next Wednesday and Greg Browne is coming at the end of March. Whoo Doggie!

"Mad" Miles

[Nirmala]

A friend invited me over to watch a spiritual movie saying that if I liked I could join her and another woman in their subscription to this spiritual movies series. What I saw was a hokie short then a longer one, "The Secret" in which various people talk about how they made more money and moved into a huge mansion in So. Cal. by focusing on what they wanted. This is not my idea of spirituality, infact it is almost the opposite. Greed is not spiritual. One of the most spiritual activities is to live in a way that leaves plently left over for other people, animals, and plants. Barrie

No true spiritual teaching tells us to go after material wealth. The Secret isn't spiritual, it's new age greed. Spiritual teachings are about letting go/surrender/renouncing greed and hatred. This twisted metaphysical teaching doesn't recognize that happiness does not come from getting everything we want. It comes from a balanced acceptance of all life's ups and downs, not allowing difficulties to totally overwhelm us or joys to make us arrogant and overly exhuberant. It doesn't recognize that the nature of life is gain and loss, pain and pleasure, praise and blame, recognition and dishonor, always changing. We have the opportunity to learn some of our deepest lessons from our failures and losses. The hardwon qualities of humility, courage, and true self acceptance come from living an ethical life and realizing there is more to happiness than what the modern world presents. Nirmala

[Barry]

The Secret isn't spiritual, it's new age greed.

There are two issues here that are being collapsed:

- The "technology" of manifestation.
- What you choose to do with it.

Regarding the technology of manifestation, I think it's on the money, as it were. Sure, it's not precise, "do exactly this and exactly that happens, every time" or maybe it is... The do "exactly this" is the tricky part. Since it's not only concerned with physical action but also the energy of the soul. And I believe it shares some thing with, dare I say, quantum mechanics, which speaks of matter having a "tendency to exist". The Secret stacks the deck for something to manifest.

And as the movie points out, what your request/expectation of the universe that gets registered is what is really expected by your soul, not just a particular thought. So again, it's a bit tricky to measure the results. But my sense is that it is really how the universe works. In this sense, I'd call it spiritual, in that it is tied to the movement of your spirit/soul.

You can use it (or should I say: you do use it - since its not something that you can turn on and off) for what you want: abundance/greed/poverty, love/hate, peace/war, health/illness, whatever... just like other technologies. It's just the way it works.

[Clancy]

No true spiritual teaching tells us to go after material wealth.

Any spiritual teaching can be misused, all the myriad wars resulting from all the myriad religions prove that.

I'm thinking the 'secret' would be useful for people who have suffered from believing parents, teachers or society who told them they're not smart enough, good enough, motivated enough or spiritual enough to flourish in this life, and that there's something spiritual about suffering.

We sorely lack exuberant, ecstatic and expressive people in our neurotic and fearful society, and could use a good dose of believing that we can be much more than we are at present, and that's what the secret sounds like to me.

[Nirmala]

There are two issues here that are being collapsed:

- The "technology" of manifestation.

- What you choose to do with it.

Regarding the technology of manifestation, I think it's on the money, as it were. Sure, it's not precise, "do exactly this and exactly that happens, every time" or maybe it is... The do "exactly this" is the tricky part. Since it's not only concerned with physical action but also the energy of the soul. And I believe it shares some thing with, dare I say, quantum mechanics, which speaks of matter having a "tendency to exist". The Secret stacks the deck for something to manifest.


And as the movie points out, what your request/expectation of the universe that gets registered is what is really expected by your soul, not just a particular thought. So again, it's a bit tricky to measure the results. But my sense is that it is really how the universe works. In this sense, I'd call it spiritual, in that it is tied to the movement of your spirit/soul.

You can use it (or should I say: you do use it - since its not something that you can turn on and off) for what you want: abundance/greed/poverty, love/hate, peace/war, health/illness, whatever... just like other technologies. It's just the way it works.

While I agree the energy of our thoughts with enough intensity and continuity will eventually manifest, we probably hold different worldviews. I don't see the universe giving or taking anything from us. To use Biblical language, everyone "reaps what they sow." Our thoughts become words and our words become deeds. We can learn to become more skillful with out thoughts, seeing them without substance and ever changing rather than concrete. We can stop/let go of negative self talk that often comes from deeply held unconscious habits and beliefs whether these are conscious, unconscious or semi-conscious. We can choose words that are truthful, timely and kind. We can make a choice to live ethically without harming ourselves or others. Whatever energy we give out to the world via thought, word and actio comes back to us when the conditions are right for that cause of ripen. This is the old cause and effect or actions have consequences. Mind is the cause. Others can support, guide or correct us, but nothing external to us, be it an indiviual, group, or an abstract philosophical idea like universal energy can do it for us. It is up to each individual.
Thanks for reading.
Nirmala

[tomcat]

I saw this movie (The Secret) with no preconceived ideas of what it was about and the hit I got from it (in brief) was that a person can accomplish almost anything if they put their mind to work on it.
First, you have to know what it is you really want. Then you put your attention to it and figure out the steps to take to manifest it, focus your thoughts in a positive manner on it, and work toward your goal.
It's the law of attraction... Whatever we think about is what we bring about. Many people will want 'things', others will want 'right livelihood', 'relationship', 'spiritual enlightenment', etc.
It's all out there... if we want it.
Tom

A friend invited me over to watch a spiritual movie saying that if I liked I could join her and another woman in their subscription to this spiritual movies series. What I saw was a hokie short then a longer one, "The Secret" in which various people talk about how they made more money and moved into a huge mansion in So. Cal. by focusing on what they wanted. This is not my idea of spirituality, infact it is almost the opposite. Greed is not spiritual. One of the most spiritual activities is to live in a way that leaves plently left over for other people, animals, and plants. Barrie

[donallan]

Mita Moni[/b]]Greed is not spiritual. One of the most spiritual activities is to live in a way that leaves plenty left over for other people, animals, and plants.

Hello!

I wonder where we learned that money, and even greed, are not "spiritual?" Isn't "Greedy" just a word that was used to shame us into being "nice" and not taking more than "they" thought was appropriate...in denial of what we wanted? Who made those rules, anyway? Like "a good boy shares his toys" ... even when he doesn't want to, even when he goes against himself when he does it, he has to do it to be a "good boy." If he doesn't want to, or makes a fuss about being made to, he is called "selfish."

Now we add those rules to our spiritual principles. Very dangerous, I believe. The universe knows nothing about greedy and selfish. It does not care. The abundance is TOTAL. It is the nature of the universe.

By the way, I don't think that the universe cares at all about The Secret, either. It already knows its own Secret, which has little to do with "Think proper spiritual thoughts and get rich-- or a soul mate, or whatever."

Who invented "Live simply so that others may simply live?" Is it true? Is that part of The Secret? Or antithetical to The Secret? Is this a universe of unlimited abundance, or is there a limited supply that we have to protect by denying ourselves our "greed?" Are WE in charge of the universe?

Bill Gates has made many billions of dollars. Is he greedy, selfish, non-spiritual? He is using the money, and attracting other money like his, to change the face of disease and death among children in Africa and other places. Is he bad? Good? Right? Wrong? Does the universe judge or congratulate him? Does God approve? Does The Secret approve?

I would suggest that his ability to amass fortunes has contributed to the abundance of others in incalculable ways. Not only the recipients of his life-saving programs, but all the people with jobs in all the businesses and technologies created or supported by what Bill Gates has created. They support their families, their grocers, and their barbers because of what Mr. Gates has created. [I am a Mac user].

For me, living a "spiritual" life means keeping my heart and mind open to the perfection of every aspect of this universe we are dreaming. It means seeing and experiencing the perfect unfolding and interconnectedness of each and every person, event, thought, emotion, tree, and tradition. It means letting go of the mind's strategy of separating, labeling, and categorizing the parts of the One Whole-- and making them good and bad, right and wrong.

Then, we ultimately let go of the idea of "spiritual," and we are free.

The universe's Secret is that there is only One Thing here.

It doesn't need a movie. Or us.

IN love,

Allan Hardman
www.joydancer.com

[Clancy]

Who invented "Live simply so that others may simply live?" Is it true?

Since the USA, with 5% of the world's population consumes 50% of the world's resources, and accomplishes this extrodinary feat of consumption via the direct aid of the largest military machine on the planet, I'd have to say, yes, it's true.