Know of Frontline and Advantage Deals???

[annkrinard]

I need Frontline for my dogs and Advantage for my cats. I know to transfer from a large dog container into a smaller container for my small critters, but I'm wondering where to get a good deal for the genuine article . Thanks. Ann

[Allen]

I have had very good luck with this company. The site is down for 24 hours.
I order all my Frontline and heartworm meds here. Great prices. You will find some good generic products here.
allen
https://secure16.ozhosting.com/pets-...cb601e52587e2d

[caretaker]

This is AllAboard Animal Search and Rescue,, I use Longs Drugs sometimes, they sell 4pack advantage for Hmm $49.00.. I order most of my stuff from Petshed.com
I did find out tho K-9 advantix is toxic to cats, so if you have cats, that love your dogs,, not a good thing to use.. I found this out recently.. in the winter I am using Advantage on my dogs. and gives there system a break also.. I buy the largest dog packet.. and break down the formula right for my dogs.

Hope this help.. every $ saved is great for the animals.
AllAboard Animal Search and Rescue

[Vet-To-Pet]

This is exactly the kind of thing that makes me SO nervous about individuals who believe that they know what they're doing, who are trying to save some money (I know what that's like), but who can easily end up doing something really wrong and really fatal for their pets.


I know that Advantage & Frontline are way expensive, especially when you have several pets to treat for fleas & ticks. But trying to figure out how to divide up large dog doses so that smaller dogs can be treated at less cost is risky, especially is you don't know the potential side effects of overdosing a dog on these products. And when someone mentions dogs and cats in the same sentence with regard to trying to 'cut corners' and use the large dog dose for the "smaller critters", it makes me cringe. Dogs are not just "little humans" and cats are not "little dogs"---they are different species and they have different physiologies! You or I can take a Tylenol tablet without any serious complications, in most cases. It is not advisable to give a dog Tylenol, but it shouldn't have life-threatening results. Cats will DIE if given ONE Tylenol tablet. Dead. Period.

Now stop playing Pharmacist/Veterinarian & ask a licensed veterinarian what products you should use on which kind & size (weight) pet you have, and if you can't afford the appropriate treatment without having to "hear about what's toxic" after the fact, then perhaps you have too many pets to afford to treat properly. If you hear someone other than a veterinarian advise you about how to divide this or that product in order to save some money, and how it's "perfectly safe" to do it, first discuss it with a veterinarian. I seriously doubt that they would refuse to warn you if you were planning to do something harmful/fatal to your pet simply because you didn't buy the product form them. Or call the manufacturer (Merial or Bayer) & talk to their support technicians/customer service professionals.

I'm a licensed vet & you'd be amazed at how many people are unaware that they've harmed or even killed their own pet because of not having the right information. I work in an emergency clinic & hear/see it all---don't guess about how to treat your pets safely, ASK someone if you're not sure. Have the number for poison control handy (near the phone: 1-888-232-8870), or call UC Davis's Vet School. I'm SO sick of people hearing from "so-and-so" who told "my friend's neighbor" that you could use _____(fill in the blank) to treat "whatever" in a cat, and then they come rushing into the emergency clinic with a limp cat who's almost dead. Don't be penny-wise & pound foolish. Think before you act...please!!
Vet To Pet

This is AllAboard Animal Search and Rescue,, I use Longs Drugs sometimes, they sell 4pack advantage for Hmm $49.00.. I order most of my stuff from Petshed.com
I did find out tho K-9 advantix is toxic to cats, so if you have cats, that love your dogs,, not a good thing to use.. I found this out recently.. in the winter I am using Advantage on my dogs. and gives there system a break also.. I buy the largest dog packet.. and break down the formula right for my dogs.

Hope this help.. every $ saved is great for the animals.
AllAboard Animal Search and Rescue

[caretaker]

To the Wacco Community,,

After being slammed here by Vet to Pet.. I guess I should have said this is under Vets advice, I work with 4 different Vets in the community, I guess enough people dont know me to know I would never put any my animals at risk,,, or would skim on $$$ for any risk to my animals ever... I also show people visually for the ones that learn differently or dont know math well the formula.. This vet I work with got the formula from the companies themselves.. I dont know if she really is a vet only that she says she is.. I have helped and dealt with many people that cannot afford flea meds. or will go to walmart and buy the cheap Hartz products, and have seen siezures in dogs and cats, mostly cats. It absolutely breaks my heart most people I see trying to help a animal they pick up on the street, can barely afford to feed themselves.. There is a very high mark up for shots, alot of them because I rescue I buy the exact same thing but do it myself, and am able to take on more animals because of it.. But this is always under the direction of vets I have worked with for years, and I always phone consult at least with any changes,, I have a dog here I have rescued from the pound, who has never had flea treatment, she is only 2-3 years old, and has no front teeth, she is a young dog. but her mouth looks like a old woman shribbled up in the front.. She is an amazing dog, and saddens me deeply. this is how it will for her forever, not only that, 2 other cattledogs came here in the same condition months ago..it drives them crazy the constant itching, they get infections alot of times and have to be treated with antibiotics... it goes on and on.
So I guess this person, has yet to know me and what I do. I have done and continue to do great work in sonoma county with animals, I take in the impossible and turn them around, I make it work for people, I donate free time to people to help themselves with pets. and were not just talking meds here.. I have given safe haven for pets, while the owner finds place to rent so they can keep there pet. I have one here right now , so people can keep there pets. I do this for the pets, they are such a hard time adjusting after being with someone for so long. so I make it work for people.

I have alot of integrity, strong passion for animals, I am balanced and morally sound person.. I will always go the extra mile............

The bottom line is if this really is a vet. She is right you always consult your vet with any changes for your animal. I include food changes also.. I do not give Vet advice. But I will share with the community information I have gotten with vets.
It is becoming more and more difficult to post on wacco these days.... Seems people are ready to jump and attack right away..

My bottom line is "Its All About the Animals"" everything else doesnt matter.. I have met 2 wonderful people from wacco that I have helped keep 2 cattledogs here at my house,, They are doing very well.. They came here not in good shape... But this couple and myself, have got them to be proud confident dogs , they are our proud work.. and I thank wacco for Being a part of sending this couple and these dogs my way...........

The Caretaker

[AnneCatherine]

I just bought a 4-pk of Advantage for cats at Western Farms in Santa Rosa for $40.00 plus tax. I don't know how much the dog flea treatment costs, though. You have to ask for the Advantage at the counter.

[BohemianHerbals]

If you buy a box of Frontline or Advantage at the Forestville Vet on Hwy 116, they will give you an extra dose free. I think it averages out to be about $8.50-$9.00 per dose, for cats, don't remember the cost of the one for dogs.

[Tecumseh]

Have you tried Bio-Spot? I had a dog that was allergic to fleas (poor fella!) and he did wonderfully on Bio-Spot which is MUCH less expensive. You can buy it online at Drs. Foster & Smith.

Best,
Another Animal Lover

[BizWrangler]

I also have multiple rescued cats, and the Vet Tech at my Vet's office actually gave me a syringe and explained how I could split up a large DOG's dose of Advantage into the appropriate size doses for the cats. I've been doing it for a few years, and it's helped save money, the cats are fine, and they don't have fleas. There's been no problem. The only difference between a dog Advantage and the cat Advantage is the size of dose - you can read the contents right on the label, a fact that the Vet Tech happened to point out to me when I asked. So if you know weights/doses there's no reason why not to do this. The Vet Tech told me this is what they do in their clinic, so I don't see anything wrong as long as you know the weight and proper dose for each cat.

Do the math: I have 14 cats. I can get the large dog (over 55 lbs) dose and split it up among 10 cats. Imagine my monthly cost if I bought 14 doses individually. Finding ways to keep costs down allows us to save these animals and give them a happy, healthy life.

I was going to hire the vet who negatively responded to this post, but after her comments about not keeping animals you can't afford, I've changed my mind. If vets would lower their bills, it would be a lot more affordable! Expensive vets is another subject....don't get me started!

[alanora]

Mindy here with my 2 cents. I just noticed recently upon looking at the products on display at the Guerneville Lark drug, that the cat formulation for Frontline has a higher concentration of one ingredient listed...quite a bit higher..i think it was 3%. Most is inert. I am not sure how this would effect efficacy, but am fairly certain that it would not be harmful in appropriate dosages. I was recently introduced to Revolution which kills ear mites as well as fleas in egg or larval stages, but not adults. I would love to figure out a safe way to perhaps alternate so that Shayna kitty gets coverage for all the little pests in all their stages of development. Have been doing the large canine dose divided for years now, and that is what was given to me at the vet on the south end of Sebastopol of Revolution. Since learning of the difference in Frontline which I prefer as the smell and residue seem to depart more quickly, I may go back to Advantage as the ingredients concentration remains the same across species, enabling huge savings........Has anyone already figured this one out? Thanks, Mindy

[Vet-To-Pet]

I am the vet you "almost hired", who responded negatively about the possible problems related to dividing and/or substituting canine & feline products & medications.

I have nothing against trying to save some money when it comes to caring for your animal companions (or anything else, for that matter---look at the cost of vehicle service/repair---and those folkds didn't go through 4 demanding years of graduate school to start thier "practices"). My point was, and still IS, that you can't simply extrapolate with some medications/products. When it comes to dogs & cats, they are different species with different physiologies. I would trust a dosing system if a veterinarian explained it to you, down to the point of showing you how to divide up doses. But if a 'vet tech' (which I used to be, before returning to vet school) can be anyone who works at the vet clinic---they should be licensed to be referred to as "Veterinary Technicians", but sometimes that term gets tossed around a little loosely---and might not be telling you correct information. I'm not saying this is true of everyone who works in a veterinary clinic, so don't get your panties in a wad over it. I'm merely saying that it could be a mistake to take instructions from someone who calls themself a "vet tech", unless you know them long & well. Yikes, I just am trying to warn people not to try to cut corners if theu're not absolutely sure that they understand exactly what they're doing. You might make a fatal error if you aren't getting the correct information about what kind of products/medications and how much is safe to use for the effective treatment of various problems/conditions. If someone doesn't want to hire me because I'm trying to protect the lives of dogs & cats, then that's their choice, but please be sure you're getting your information from a knowledgeable source. Sometimes "doing the math" isn't the only factor to be considered.

And, don't get me started on people who don't pay their vet bills, or who believe that veterinarians are overcharging for their services----do you bicker with your dentist about having a root canal? Do you expect her/him to do what they do for free, since they love people & believe that everyone's teeth should be healthy, at their own (the dentist's) expense? Think about it...I do what I can for rescue groups & people on fixed incomes, etc, but I deserve to make a living after 8 years of school & student loans close to $100,000 when one's handed their diploma. Not to mention all the licensing fees veterinarians pay, the cost for continuing education (mandatory) which runs into the thousands each year, our cost for supplies (not ONE drug company/supply company donates their products to us--aren't THEY the greedy ones?)

Please think before lashing out at someone's "outside", when you don't know all there is to know about the "inside". I'm not rich---far from it!! Some vets DO make a lot of money, and do charge more than seems "charitable", but that can be said about probably every profession/occupation. Do massage therapists charge too much? Does the food we buy cost too much? Are houses too expensive? Why do our new washing machines break down about two months after the warranty expires? I hope you see my point---I'm not doing this (veterinary work) to get rich & take advantage of people who love animals. I LOVE my work because I get paid to take care of animals---how neat is THAT?? But I do need to GET paid for it, just like anyone else who has a job, whether they work for themselves or someone else.

Happy, healthy, peaceful, abundant New Years to all~
Paula Loniak, DVM

I also have multiple rescued cats, and the Vet Tech at my Vet's office actually gave me a syringe and explained how I could split up a large DOG's dose of Advantage into the appropriate size doses for the cats. I've been doing it for a few years, and it's helped save money, the cats are fine, and they don't have fleas. There's been no problem. The only difference between a dog Advantage and the cat Advantage is the size of dose - you can read the contents right on the label, a fact that the Vet Tech happened to point out to me when I asked. So if you know weights/doses there's no reason why not to do this. The Vet Tech told me this is what they do in their clinic, so I don't see anything wrong as long as you know the weight and proper dose for each cat.

Do the math: I have 14 cats. I can get the large dog (over 55 lbs) dose and split it up among 10 cats. Imagine my monthly cost if I bought 14 doses individually. Finding ways to keep costs down allows us to save these animals and give them a happy, healthy life.

I was going to hire the vet who negatively responded to this post, but after her comments about not keeping animals you can't afford, I've changed my mind. If vets would lower their bills, it would be a lot more affordable! Expensive vets is another subject....don't get me started!

[moonrise]

Vet to Pet - You know I saw your first post rambling on and on in response to someone offering helpful suggestions and thought 'wow what's her problem." But I was busy with animal stuff and there's just not endless hours in a day to address all the junk that comes up sometimes.

Now I see a second post and I'm wondering: If you "have nothing against it", why are your "panties in a wad" over this? (You know that's one of the crudest kind of statements I hear people make to another - doesn't it seem kind of crass and out of line here? I don't know why you used it in your initial post!)

The original question was someone wanting to find affordable means of flea control. SOME people were passing on information they had from THEIR VETS that had helped save them money too. And you jumped all over them. What's your problem? No one said anything about giving cats Tylenol or any garbage like that. It's about flea control.
So, what do you have to recommend that will help people save money? If you don't have anything to recommend why not butt out? All this other stuff you posted has nothing to do with the original topic!

Do you think you're the only one with debt? Because you have debt for going to school to be a DVM, is this then ok in your mind to go ahead and sell packaging? Or berate others for offering information their Vets told them? With some of this flea control it is only packaging - small packaging or large packaging. You could have simply offered information that would be helpful and instructive. But berate others? What's the point of that?

For all I know you could be the now infamous 'mutilating spay vet' at the shelter! Or maybe the one that would rather euthanize a sick feral cat because there's "other nicer kitties" out ther that need help and would be a "better investment" than a feral? I don't know but it sounds pretty strange to have such an attitude.

There's something to be said for "bedside manner" in all healing professions, including Veterinary. If you want to be successful as a DVM and not gain a reputation for being more about money than animals, you might want to do some thinking about this. Yes you need to charge fairly for services - fairly for you and fairly for your clients. I know some Vet practices that have waiting lists to be clients. Do they get all high and mighty over stuff like this? Not that I see. They help, they respect, they work out finances when needed, they keep costs low because they know that being honest and affordable and effective at care for animals is what will build and keep a client base faster and longer than anything else. Balance fairness for yourself and for your clients. You might even find that accepting barter for services is rewarding. You might need your car fixed sometime or your house cleaned or yard landscaped.

So you are in this work because you love what you do. Remember that before you jump on another person's back like this again. In this case what she does is indeed about the animals. She doesn't need a degree to know she wants to help animals; she loves her work and it IS "about the animals." (I know many Vet Techs who are the same, accept low wages, part time hours without benefits and sometimes lousy bosses because for them it's about the animals - and it really shows in their manner and care with them!). Only her work is paid for largely by her own income with some few donations that usually come in the form of boxes of junky broken stuff, or broken pieces of kennels that were supposed to be in good shape. You won't hear her complain about the crap people dump on her. You won't hear about people snatching donation checks and a lot of other stuff that happens either. She won't talk about it because to her it IS about the animals. People will do what they will or won't, but she will do her best by what animals come through her life however she can. You owe her an apology, if you care to check it.

Advantage can be bought in the large canine size and split up into doses for smaller animals depending on weight and whether they are dogs or cats. I can even post the conversion chart. There's nothing wrong with finding a way around the manufacturer's packaging prices. But I have run into some vets that won't sell it any other way than smaller packaging and more profit. My vet does not recommend Advantix because it has an ingredient in it that to many cats is toxic. Safer just not to sell it.

Oh, I just wonder if you know about Lepto? Are you recommending that your canine patients get the vaccines? There are a lot of dogs falling to this disease and more of the local Vets are picking up the pace on getting dogs vaccinated and people educated. Maybe you could post information about Lepto and do something helpful. Or are you going to jump on me for suggesting Lepto is a problem when I'm not a DVM?

-Dorothy

[Looksgood]

In my opinion this post goes way beyond the bounds of reasonable public discourse. I see nothing in the thread that calls for this kind of response. Paula is a licensed vet, and as such has the right to speak as an expert in these matters, and for her views to be taken seriously. To describe her as "rambling" and what she writes as "junk" is insulting and adds nothing to the information content of this thread. If you disagree with her, adress then content of what she writes, and leave out the personal attacks.

Paula's original post was a reasonable and gently worded warning against the danger of harming your pets by maybe acting on wrong or insufficient information. She did not say that you could not or should not save money wherever possible on animal care, she said that before you do, you should check with a real vet first. Not another person who has pets, not a vetinerary technician, but a real vet. This seems like good advice to me. If you disagree with it, you are free to ignore it, but please do not make personal attacks on the person offering advice based on her own (and not your) area of expertise.

Patrick Brinton

Vet to Pet - You know I saw your first post rambling on and on in response to someone offering helpful suggestions and thought 'wow what's her problem." But I was busy with animal stuff and there's just not endless hours in a day to address all the junk that comes up sometimes.

Now I see a second post and I'm wondering: If you "have nothing against it", why are your "panties in a wad" over this? (You know that's one of the crudest kind of statements I hear people make to another - doesn't it seem kind of crass and out of line here? I don't know why you used it in your initial post!)
{snip}

[karen_mercer]

Thank you Patrick for your articulate and sane reply. Often there seems to be a lot of flaming on this board that scares me from sounding off but Im glad you made yourself heard. From my personal experience with Vet Paula she seems like a caring, concerned practitioner--(I mean who ever heard of getting a vet on the phone at 9 o:clock at night on a holiday weekend) I also apreciate Dian's (Tacitus) level head and gentle spirit.

In my opinion this post goes way beyond the bounds of reasonable public discourse. I see nothing in the thread that calls for this kind of response. Paula is a licensed vet, and as such has the right to speak as an expert in these matters, and for her views to be taken seriously. To describe her as "rambling" and what she writes as "junk" is insulting and adds nothing to the information content of this thread. If you disagree with her, adress then content of what she writes, and leave out the personal attacks.

Paula's original post was a reasonable and gently worded warning against the danger of harming your pets by maybe acting on wrong or insufficient information. She did not say that you could not or should not save money wherever possible on animal care, she said that before you do, you should check with a real vet first. Not another person who has pets, not a vetinerary technician, but a real vet. This seems like good advice to me. If you disagree with it, you are free to ignore it, but please do not make personal attacks on the person offering advice based on her own (and not your) area of expertise.

Patrick Brinton

[SusanT]

Advantage & Frontline

Advantage is a highly effective and very safe product used to kill fleas on dogs and cats. Frontline is a very similar product that also kills ticks and is more resistant to water than Advantage. If your dog swims a lot or if you bath your dog frequently, you will have better success with Frontline.
Both Advantage and Frontline are safe to use on either dogs or cats. THIS IS NOT TRUE with many other over the counter flea products. YOU CAN POISON A CAT with flea medications labeled ONLY FOR DOGS, SO DO NOT USE PRODUCTS OTHER THAN ADVANTAGE OR FRONTLINE INTERCHANGEABLY ON DOGS AND CATS.
If you would like to split up a dose of Advantage or Frontline on several animals here are the amounts to use:

Cats:
Advantage:
Under 8 pounds - .40ml
8 - 10 pounds - .60ml
Over 11pounds - .80ml

Frontline
(All weights) .50ml

Dogs:
Advantage:
Under 10 pounds - .40ml
10 - pounds - .1.0ml
20 - 55 pounds - 2.5ml
Over 55 pounds - 4.0ml

Frontline:
Under 22 pounds - .70ml
23 - 44 pounds - 1.3ml
45 - 88 pounds - 2.7ml
89-132 pounds - 4.0ml

For Cats, place entire amount on back of HEAD (top back of head - not their neck. Feel to make sure you can tell the difference). For dogs split up the dosage in several places down their back. Reapply Advantage once monthly. Reapply Frontline every 6 weeks for flea control or every 4 weeks for flea and tick control.

Be sure you understand clearly the measurements and have a syringe or dropper that you can accurately measure MLs or CCs with. Practice with water to see how it works. An ML is the same as a CC. You can get a tinted glass bottle at somewhere like Whole Foods and put the medicine in, then measure from it - just make sure to get a size bottle with wide enough opening for the syring or measured dropper. You want to handle this as little as possible. Read all the directions in the package and study the diagrams of how and where to apply the medicines on cats or dogs. Keep any left over medicine in a glass bottle, screw plastic lid in a cool dark place AWAY FROM CHILDREN and PROPERLY MARKED.

DO NOT try this with any other medication. Don't take this to mean you can give other medicines to cats and dogs. ALWAYS check with a vetrinarian to see what's ok for your pet and what's not.

If you have a vet who will support your effort to save money and treat your animals for preventing fleas/ticks by providing the large dose size so you can do this, consider supporting them by purchasing your large size from them.

Okay Vet to Pet and others who read and could use this information, I'm posting it. Wow my first post here and glad it will help some folks. Would have been easier to post but guess it's more gratifying to berate others? Seems the way this bbs is in many regards! And such a conscious community minded lot!
Well for the conscious folks, here's to a flea and tick free life for our dogs and cats!
Namaste,

Susan

Vet to Pet[/color]]This is exactly the kind of thing that makes me SO nervous about individuals who believe that they know what they're doing, who are trying to save some money (I know what that's like), but who can easily end up doing something really wrong and really fatal for their pets.

I know that Advantage & Frontline are way expensive, especially when you have several pets to treat for fleas & ticks. But trying to figure out how to divide up large dog doses so that smaller dogs can be treated at less cost is risky, especially is you don't know the potential side effects of overdosing a dog on these products. And when someone mentions dogs and cats in the same sentence with regard to trying to 'cut corners' and use the large dog dose for the "smaller critters", it makes me cringe.
SNIP
Now stop playing Pharmacist/Veterinarian & ask a licensed veterinarian what products you should use on which kind & size (weight) pet you have, and if you can't afford the appropriate treatment without having to "hear about what's toxic" after the fact, then perhaps you have too many pets to afford to treat properly.
SNIP
Vet To Pet

[moonrise]

Patrick,
For someone who believes in leaving out personal attacks it sure doesn't show in your post. Last I checked, a person doesn't need a particular degree to speak up when they see something wrong. I stand by what I said. And I do believe it was rambling. I do believe much of it had little to do with the original post asking where to find a deal on these two products. Consumers know these things, too. Many of our Veterinarians provide us with the information. Those posts certainly could have been worded more professionally, if this is the criteria you go by.

As far as what was said, I suggest you read the posts carefully.

"She did not say that you could not or should not save money wherever possible on animal care, she said that before you do, you should check with a real vet first."

As far as what was said, I suggest you read the posts carefully. Here's what she did say, Patrick, among other things:

"This is exactly the kind of thing that makes me SO nervous about individuals who believe that they know what they're doing, who are trying to save some money (I know what that's like), but who can easily end up doing something really wrong and really fatal for their pets.

I know that Advantage & Frontline are way expensive, especially when you have several pets to treat for fleas & ticks. But trying to figure out how to divide up large dog doses so that smaller dogs can be treated at less cost is risky, especially is you don't know the potential side effects of overdosing a dog on these products. And when someone mentions dogs and cats in the same sentence with regard to trying to 'cut corners' and use the large dog dose for the "smaller critters", it makes me cringe.

Now stop playing Pharmacist/Veterinarian & ask a licensed veterinarian what products you should use on which kind & size (weight) pet you have, and if you can't afford the appropriate treatment without having to "hear about what's toxic" after the fact, then perhaps you have too many pets to afford to treat properly."

Now you tell me Patrick, you got 2 big dogs, 2 small dogs and three cats, and you're trying to make a living in this county with a small business or the great job market, lousy transportation and high cost of living we have here, and there are some perfectly good Vets who are providing this information on splitting doses to their clients - what's the crime in looking for a good deal on these products?

Or do you believe if a person has too many pets to treat "properly" ... then what? They should drop them off at animal control?

Don't step on my right to participate in a public forum or anyone else's. You don't know me and you have no idea what qualifications I have. And I'm quite certain you have no qualifications OR reliable information on which to base this; though you still have an opinion. If YOU don't approve of mine, ignore it!
-Dorothy

PS: In all fairness to Paula, she has apologized privately to those concerned.

In my opinion this post goes way beyond the bounds of reasonable public discourse. I see nothing in the thread that calls for this kind of response. Paula is a licensed vet, and as such has the right to speak as an expert in these matters, and for her views to be taken seriously. To describe her as "rambling" and what she writes as "junk" is insulting and adds nothing to the information content of this thread. If you disagree with her, adress then content of what she writes, and leave out the personal attacks.

Paula's original post was a reasonable and gently worded warning against the danger of harming your pets by maybe acting on wrong or insufficient information. She did not say that you could not or should not save money wherever possible on animal care, she said that before you do, you should check with a real vet first. Not another person who has pets, not a vetinerary technician, but a real vet. This seems like good advice to me. If you disagree with it, you are free to ignore it, but please do not make personal attacks on the person offering advice based on her own (and not your) area of expertise.

Patrick Brinton

[pbrinton]

Patrick,
For someone who believes in leaving out personal attacks it sure doesn't show in your post. Last I checked, a person doesn't need a particular degree to speak up when they see something wrong.

(Sigh) I should probably just let this go, but I will give it one more try. I made no personal attack on you, and I did not say that you need a degree to speak up. I asked that you do so in a manner befitting a public forum, and treat the other participant with respect, even when you disagree with them. As far as degrees are concerned, my point was that the opinion of someone who has studied a subject carries more weight than that of someone who has not. This seems self-evident to me.

"She did not say that you could not or should not save money wherever possible on animal care, she said that before you do, you should check with a real vet first."

As far as what was said, I suggest you read the posts carefully. Here's what she did say, Patrick, among other things:

"This is exactly the kind of thing that makes me SO nervous about individuals who believe that they know what they're doing, who are trying to save some money (I know what that's like), but who can easily end up doing something really wrong and really fatal for their pets.

I know that Advantage & Frontline are way expensive, especially when you have several pets to treat for fleas & ticks. But trying to figure out how to divide up large dog doses so that smaller dogs can be treated at less cost is risky, especially is you don't know the potential side effects of overdosing a dog on these products. And when someone mentions dogs and cats in the same sentence with regard to trying to 'cut corners' and use the large dog dose for the "smaller critters", it makes me cringe.

Now stop playing Pharmacist/Veterinarian & ask a licensed veterinarian what products you should use on which kind & size (weight) pet you have, and if you can't afford the appropriate treatment without having to "hear about what's toxic" after the fact, then perhaps you have too many pets to afford to treat properly."

Well, I have read this very carefully, and it seems to say just what I reported. Ask a vet. Good advice.

Now you tell me Patrick, you got 2 big dogs, 2 small dogs and three cats, and you're trying to make a living in this county with a small business or the great job market, lousy transportation and high cost of living we have here, and there are some perfectly good Vets who are providing this information on splitting doses to their clients - what's the crime in looking for a good deal on these products?

No crime at all, and nobody (including Paula) has suggested otherwise. If there are indeed "perfectly good Vets" who will advise you in the matter, then her concerns are met. If you are yourself availing yourself of their advice, then you can just pass over her post, knowing that the warning was intended for others. It is always worth remembering that such posts are read by a very diverse group of people, and are not necessarily intended for you personally.

Or do you believe if a person has too many pets to treat "properly" ... then what? They should drop them off at animal control?

Who is suggesting this? Ideally people do not take on more dependants than they can afford, but if circumstances force them to do so, they save money where they can, and prioritize their expenditures. But I would hope they do so in a responsible manner, and listen to the advice of experts in the field. Notice that I do not say that they must necessarily follow that advice; they should weigh it along with all the rest of the input they receive. But they would certainly be smart to assign the advice of a vet a higher weight than that of (say) a veterinary tech.

Now of course I hear the cries of the cynics: "Vets are just trying to protect their lucrative turf!" But when I think of all the vets I have known, maybe 20 in all, I cannot think of a single one who was not completely dedicated to the welfare of animals. Vets have plenty of business. Yes, the legal requirements of such a business as well as the expectations of pet owners mean that it is a very high overhead occupation (to say nothing of the cost of the education). This translates into higher prices; how could it not? Some vets (Paula among them, ironically) choose to offer a more basic service at a more affordable rate. But vets realize that there are a lot of people who cannot afford to do it "properly" (whatever that means in any particular culture). What they (or at least all the ones I have known) want is for the animals to get whatever level of care their caretakers can afford. As you yourself point out, there are vets willing to tell you how to save money. In fact I do not believe there is a vet in the county who would refuse such information to someone truly in need. Now maybe they would be more reluctant to help someone shave their pet expenses so they could afford a better vacation, but that is a whole other question.

...and finally

Don't step on my right to participate in a public forum or anyone else's. You don't know me and you have no idea what qualifications I have. And I'm quite certain you have no qualifications OR reliable information on which to base this; though you still have an opinion. If YOU don't approve of mine, ignore it!
-Dorothy

PS: In all fairness to Paula, she has apologized privately to those concerned.

I did not in any way question your or anyone's right to participate in this or any public forum. I asked that you do so in a way that is respectful of others.

As for qualifications; you had not announced yourself as a vet, and the content of your posts made it pretty clear that you are not, so I think I was on fairly safe ground in speculating that you would be unlikely to have more expertise in veterinary matters than a licensed vet. If I am wrong in this, I will be happy to apologize.

And on the topic of apologies, I have something to say about your PS. Under the guise of giving Paula due recognition, you have made a private communication public, but giving only a characterization of that communication, not the text. You describe it as an apology. Now an apology carries as a necessary component an admission of wrongdoing, so you have managed to convey the strong implication that she admitted that she was in some way wrong in the matter (and thus by further implication that you were right, since the apology was offered to you), but without specifying what it was that she was apologizing for. For the record I do not think she has anything to apologize for.

Patrick Brinton

[moonrise]

If you wanted to read and understood this thread you'd understand what has been said. Vets DO provide information how to divide up the doses. You don't know this apparently or maybe just acting ignorant. I can't connect the dots for you any more.

You certainly did advise me not to post and "ignore" it. Right there in print and you deny it. Knowing what I do, this doesn't surprise me. You don't get it and it's obvious to me that you don't care to get it either . This was a waste of time and space.

Anyone reading this I hope you can truthfully consider if the phrase, "don't get your panties in a wad" is the least bit offensive or inappropriate or unprofessional? Those weren't my words. That was what made me respond in the first place. I don't know of any professional who would represent themselves this way.. If it wasn't for that attack on a person I know to work herself to the bone helping many of the people here rescue animals and so much more, I'd left it alone or maybe just posted the insrtuctions as Susan did (thanks SusanT and welcome).

And you're right Patrick. There's been no apology here. And that to you and perhaps others is as good as none. Perhaps I need to reevaluate what I've received. I did not want Paula to feel as though she were under fire for this other stuff that others continue agitating.

Dorothy

[Vet-To-Pet]

To My Fellow Waccos~


I'd like to apologize for creating such inflammatory dialog among otherwise civil people. Had I known what would follow, I (probably) would have kept my comments to myself. However, having worked in the animal health care profession for over 30 years, I've seen many examples of animals being unintentionally harmed (or worse) due to human error.

As a veterinarian, I feel it's my obligation to educate people about being responsible pet caregivers. Maybe I should keep my comments to myself rather than risk insulting someone who might misinterpret my intentions, but it's a kind of reflex reaction to speak up when I see a potentially harmful misuse of toxic substances being generated/encouraged by people I only know by screen names---I'm new to this community & I'm not yet familiar with many of the hard-working people who volunteer their time to care for the animals who have no one else.

Just to add one more piece of information that most people probably aren't aware of: under state & national laws, licensed professionals (veterinarians, physicians, psychologists, etc) are not allowed to provide medical advice over the phone/online/in a letter, etc, unless they've already established a doctor-client relationship with that animal (in my case). In other words, unless I've examined a particular animal (within a reasonable amount of time, like within the last year), I can't tell someone what's wrong with their pet or prescribe any medication for it without the risk of losing my license, So, giving "general guidelines" for the use of potentially toxic chemicals to animals I've never met would be totally unacceptable within the guidelines of the California Veterinary Medical Board. Please keep that in mind when you call a doctor, therapist, veterinarian who's not familiar with you/your animal---they will probably suggest that you make an appointment to come in for an exam. That's not just a way to get you to pay for an appointment for an exam---it's the LAW.

I just wanted to clear up a few misunderstandings that had created friction/harsh comments among the Wacco members. Please accept my sincere apology for pointing out a potential animal health risk without being asked for my opinion.


Paula Loniak, DVM (Vet-To-Pet)

[willowistminis]

Hi--The companies that make both of these products still hold the patent; therefore the price will remain high until it runs out. Even retail stores do not get any deals on this product. As a result, the price is high and the customer thinks that the store is getting all of the profit. We actually make $4 average on each 4 dose pak that we sell.

I need Frontline for my dogs and Advantage for my cats. I know to transfer from a large dog container into a smaller container for my small critters, but I'm wondering where to get a good deal for the genuine article . Thanks. Ann

[glenclem]

Ann, You might want to look at the bigger picture of flea control. Attack form all sides. The Master Gardener program has an excelent information sheet about flea control not only on your pet but also in the habitat of your pet. You can get them at the Master Gardener booth at area farmer's market or online at www.recyclenow.org/less-toxic. There is also other excelent information on this site about other home and garden pest control.
Glen

I need Frontline for my dogs and Advantage for my cats. I know to transfer from a large dog container into a smaller container for my small critters, but I'm wondering where to get a good deal for the genuine article . Thanks. Ann

[Braggi]

Less toxic than Frontline? I don't think so. Here's why: to produce, package, distribute, sell, and for you to purchase and apply all those products amazingly large amounts of fuel are used. Let's also consider the products themselves and their environmental impact. Although each item is "less toxic" in total you are using a lot of petrochemicals to bring them home and apply them. And then, guess what? It doesn't work. You still have fleas. I know because we used to use all those methods and products.

If you buy a tiny tube of Frontline or similar product, it will be shipped mail order at minimal cost (far less than the combined cost of all those "less toxic" methods) with minimal packaging. A few drops kills not only the fleas on your pet, but also all the fleas in your home since any flea that hops on board dies too. Minimal time and fuss and minimal impact on the environment despite the fact the product is a noxious chemical. I know, you'd like to limit your pet's exposure to that and I agree. I usually only dose my cats three or four times a year which seems ample to control our fleas.

Technology has given us the answer to the problem of fleas. I suppose they will build up a resistance at some point but for the last ten years or so at our house we have no flea problem with a minimal hit on the environment and almost no wasted time or money. We'll switch brands if resistance becomes a problem. BTW, I tried a Hartz brand competing product and it was a total waste. Didn't work, stunk and left an oil slick on the cat. Had to shampoo her to get it off.

-Jeff

PS. We live in the middle of a forest with lots and lots of wild critters about too.

Ann, You might want to look at the bigger picture of flea control. Attack form all sides. The Master Gardener program has an excelent information sheet about flea control not only on your pet but also in the habitat of your pet. You can get them at the Master Gardener booth at area farmer's market or online at www.recyclenow.org/less-toxic. There is also other excelent information on this site about other home and garden pest control.
Glen

[Braggi]

Oh, I didn't answer the question.

I usually buy from these folks: https://cmpgnr.com/r.html?c=1057255&...g=0&f=88777379

[Barrie]

Hi--The companies that make both of these products still hold the patent; therefore the price will remain high until it runs out. Even retail stores do not get any deals on this product. As a result, the price is high and the customer thinks that the store is getting all of the profit. We actually make $4 average on each 4 dose pak that we sell.

A veterinarian taught me to buy the products for the largest dog and use a syringe to apply a measured amount to my cats. I have it written down, but it isn't near my computer. If you are interested I can look it up for you. One package for the large dog will last over a year for my six cats. I don't apply it every month, only when I see evidence of fleas.

Barrie

[jesswolfe]

After reading thru the flames, lets get back to the question of low cost flea meds. I have Advantage, in the large dog size, that I use for my three cats. I got instructions from my vet on how to dose the kitties with a syringe, since they are different sizes. But I dont use it much. Why? I dont use the meds if I dont have to. If the flea situation gets out of hand, or the cats are really suffering,:kitty: then I use the Advantage. But at other times, instead of putting chemicals on them, I use a low tech flea comb. Yeah, a flea comb. The kitties love to be combed. Its effective in getting out the fleas they get, and its nontoxic. You just gotta make sure you kill the little buggers before they jump off.

Of course, with three cats its manageable. But with more it could be a problem to comb them all. Your mileage may vary.

Jess:panther: