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  1. TopTop #61
    podfish's Avatar
    podfish
     

    Re: Medicare for All is a losing general election position!

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by kburgess: View Post
    and I suppose that you are endorsing socialism?...
    and your believing it doesn't make it any more true.

    sure, I, along with JC and others, endorse socialism. It's kind of odd that you think it's not a sustainable system, but simultaneously imagine an "un-shackled society where truth and human value were the basis...". Yeah, that's hard-nosed realism, much more plausible than being able to, say, build on the style of socialism that the Euros have been experimenting with. The governments of the world through history have incorporated more or less socialism, just as they have more or less democracy, with varying levels of success. There have been promising results for both, certainly both trends should continue while learning from the failures.

    Your world-view is revealed again (i'd forgotten) by the invocation of the cabal that is apparently the real reason we can't have nice things. I guess if they weren't there, we'd be living in the land of milk & honey? Seems to me that instead, the problem is with human nature; capitalism, especially crony capitalism, leads to the rise of what look like cabals just as much as socialism can. Centralizing power is the problem. Democracy is one attempt at limiting that, and socialism, if it's implemented in a way that maximizes everyone's power, actually helps maintain equality. It's more in the nature of capitalism to allow for the rise of an uber-class and a race to the bottom for the rest. Uber (the company, not the class), which some tout as a sign of the miracle of a free economy, actually is a better example for my argument. Cabbies were solidly middle-class, while Uberists are fighting to stay there.
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  2. TopTop #62
    podfish's Avatar
    podfish
     

    Re: Medicare for All is a losing general election position!

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by cyberanvil: View Post
    Not following you. With a fixed income of $70K, more taxes mean less discretionary income.
    all else being equal, sure. But you're talking about a Swede making $70K, paying $40K in taxes. Sounds high, but whatever. Still, he pays rent, food, etc. and then sits outside watching the northern lights while drinking up whatever pittance he has left over. After paying his bills, how much did he have left to buy beer for himself and his friends?

    while here, I take my $70K and pay taxes, health insurance, rent - and maybe I pay higher rent so I don't have to live near people in their tents, car and gas costs since there's no public transit, car repairs due to the beat-up roads, and then sit outside watching the whales at Bodega head. Which of us can buy more beer? ok, our beer's probably better so we have to account for volume vs. quality, but the principle stands.
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  4. TopTop #63

    Re: Medicare for All is a losing general election position!

    You are correct, you are not following him. Discretionary income is what is left over after you pay taxes and other necessary expenses. If some of the taxation pays for things that you would otherwise have to pay more for yourself (for instance if an extra $500 a month on your taxes saves you $1,000 in health insurance premiums) you can indeed have more discretionary money along with higher taxes. Plus you may well have a better standard of living too.

    Patrick Brinton

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by cyberanvil: View Post
    Not following you. With a fixed income of $70K, more taxes mean less discretionary income.
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  6. TopTop #64

    Re: Medicare for All is a losing general election position!

    I do not think it is useful to talk about "isms", especially when we do not have anything approaching agreement on how they are defined. Also, while I support your general position, I see the history that has brought us here somewhat differently. For the entire 10,000 years or so of the feudal system, with the exception of a brief period in Greece and a similar period in Rome, the (so called civilized) world was run entirely by autocratic monarchies, with not a trace of socialism. Even Greece and Rome were democratic, not socialist.

    It was not until the Enlightenment and the Industrial Revolution that governments were instituted from scratch with the people (as opposed to already existing power structures) in mind, first here in the US and then in France. Most of the western democracies followed their lead not through revolution as much as deterioration of the old power structures. A fair degree of socialism came along for the ride, but the very first (and so far only) true socialist system was ironically imposed by dictatorial decree by Castro in Cuba. All of these with varying degrees of success. This is a broad and sweeping summary, and I am sure minor counter examples can be found, but the fact is that it is incredibly rare for government systems to be invented. They have been instead imposed from above by those in power wishing to consolidate their power.

    Technological advances, particularly in communications, give us the opportunity to do it differently going forward. We can think about how we want things to be. But we have come to agreement on what principles we want our society to embody. I would suggest we start with equality of opportunity (not equality of result), and a floor below which nobody can fall. Nobody should get seconds until everyone has had firsts. In other words (if you must put it in terms of "isms") socialism for necessities and capitalism for luxuries.

    Patrick Brinton

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by podfish: View Post
    and your believing it doesn't make it any more true....
    Last edited by Barry; 12-11-2019 at 03:10 PM.
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  8. TopTop #65
    kburgess's Avatar
    kburgess
     

    Re: Medicare for All is a losing general election position!

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by podfish: View Post
    and your believing it doesn't make it any more true.sure, ....
    I understand that the cabal idea can be a bit tough to swallow, but there are a lot of folks who have done some pretty extensive research on the matter and one of the best is Anna Von Rietz.This is a quick article on her site with over 2000 other articles that might help to clarify things.Take a look at the rest of her site for a wealth of good information and simple solutions.Thanks, Ken.http://annavonreitz.com/factsfirmlyinmind.pdf
    Last edited by Barry; 12-11-2019 at 03:04 PM.
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  9. TopTop #66
    cyberanvil
    Guest

    Re: Medicare for All is a losing general election position!

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by pbrinton: View Post
    You are correct, you are not following him. Discretionary income is what is left over after you pay taxes and other necessary expenses...
    Discretionary income
    noun
    income remaining after deduction of taxes, other mandatory charges, and expenditure on necessary items.

    So if increased taxes are greater than the cost of a person's medical premiums, that would be a negative, right? I don't believe anyone has rationally laid out a plan to pay for MFA. Makes me nervous because once Government programs are implemented they are very hard to roll back. For me, MFA is a loser because I have employer provided healthcare. Any increase in taxes would provide me no benefit.
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  10. TopTop #67
    podfish's Avatar
    podfish
     

    Re: Medicare for All is a losing general election position!

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by cyberanvil: View Post
    .... For me, MFA is a loser because I have employer provided healthcare. Any increase in taxes would provide me no benefit.
    that's certainly a point the real plan will have to deal with. There are many ideas, none that you can take too seriously before the post-election negotiations that will be brutal, judging by our history with 'obama-care'. But one option would be to have your employer paying those extra taxes, not individuals who they employ. The details of what to do for the self-employed, and how to incentivize employers who offer insurance to still do so without forcing a one-size-fits-all solution on employers who currently don't, are TBD.

    These issues will have to be solved, along with a ton of others. Some will throw up their hands at the complexity, or out of fear that the results won't be good. That's not totally unreasonable, if you think the current situation is not only acceptable but sustainable. I don't think either is true, though. The battle over different plans by different candidates is really just foreplay, though. Elements of the plans that a winning candidate proposes will have a slightly better chance of making it through the next round, but no guarantees. The real thing being decided is how important the electorate find some sort of single-payer healthcare to be.
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  12. TopTop #68
    Barry's Avatar
    Barry
    Founder & Moderator

    Re: Medicare for All is a losing general election position!

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by cyberanvil: View Post
    ..For me, MFA is a loser because I have employer provided healthcare. Any increase in taxes would provide me no benefit.
    In defense of MFA, it does come with a phase in period (4 years?), during which time employment arrangements could be adapted to account that the government would be paying for healthcare once it gets started.

    But I think this is another good reason that a public option is a better path to get to universal coverage, so those arrangement need not be changed if desired.

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  13. TopTop #69
    occihoff's Avatar
    occihoff
     

    Re: Medicare for All is a losing general election position!

    A public option sounds reasonable, as long as it is done in a way that makes it attractive compared with private plans. Of course there would need to be enough people enrolled in the single payer option to make it economically viable.

    But I am amazed that only one person has actually responded directly to my very simple, repeated question on this forum: how many citizens in countries that already do have some sort of single payer health care system would prefer to substitute our system for theirs? That person, of European background, only responded privately and basically said that such citizens would not prefer such a substitution.

    This discussion has been more or less theoretical, yet it appears that virtually every country--at least in Canada and Europe--except for ours actually has some sort of government run health care system. Is this correct? So how much agitation is there among the citizenry to make their systems more like ours? I'm sure there are complaints. I've heard that there can be rather long waits in Canada to get some procedures. But does this rise to the level where many Canadians would prefer to switch their system to one more like ours?

    I'm no scholar of other country's health care systems, and I don't know how many of you are either. But I think a little more scrutiny of what's already out there would be worth more than further speculative arguments.
    Last edited by Barry; 12-12-2019 at 12:16 PM.
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  15. TopTop #70
    cyberanvil
    Guest

    Re: Medicare for All is a losing general election position!

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by Barry: View Post
    In defense of MFA, it does come with a phase in period (4 years?),...
    As I've stated before, hard to contemplate a MFA plan when there are many proposals. Case in point. You mention a 4 year phase in, but that sounds like Bernie's plan. Warren's plan calls for a 10 year phase in.
    Last edited by Barry; 12-12-2019 at 12:18 PM.
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  16. TopTop #71
    kburgess's Avatar
    kburgess
     

    Re: Medicare for All is a losing general election position!

    Hello folks,
    I know that my world view might seem a bit tough to swallow, sooo,
    Here is a link to a free book written by Judge Anna Von Rietz who is an amazing historical and political researcher of law who has tried to simplify an incredibly complex and difficult to understand topic into a 22 page book written for the average reader.

    It is true, I have been studying this material for years and when I realize that the majority of folks who just watch the news or even talk radio, this stuff can seem ridiculous and pretty far fetched, that that does not make it untrue, only very well hidden and a testament to those who want to keep us ignorant.

    I do not like being ignorant, so I dig a little deeper and when I find that folks have nutty stories I look into them, and when what they say fits, I follow it. Anna is one of those people and as I have listened to many people over they years have similar ideas and I have found her's to be a bit more complete, I say to myself, 'this might be just the one!'

    Enough jabber,
    Here is the link to websites and book,
    Please let me know if you pursue this info and what you think of it, good or bad,
    Ken.
    book also attached.
    http://www.annavonreitz.com/
    http://www.paulstramer.net/
    https://theamericanstatesassembly.net/

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by podfish: View Post
    and your believing it doesn't make it any more true....
    Attached Files
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  17. TopTop #72
    cyberanvil
    Guest

    Re: Medicare for All is a losing general election position!

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by Cynthia Poten: View Post
    Link to how medicare and welfare for all is done in Sweden. https://www.democracynow.org/2019/12...social_welfare
    A different view, and to my mind a more realistic view of Scandinavian healthcare, would be the following link to a discussion of Socialist and Swedish healthcare. Swedish healthcare is directly addressed at the 30:00 minute mark.

    Socialism and the Scandinavian illusion
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2uS8A0TVE9A
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