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  1. TopTop #1
    kburgess's Avatar
    kburgess
     

    Discussions with Trump supporters

    Quote occihoff wrote: View Post
    Ken, I really appreciate your ability to consider feedback and respond like this. You sound like you are probably a really nice guy who somehow does not perceive the Trumpsters as the heartless jerks that many of the rest of us do. I had that feeling about Ray, too. I'm very interested in trying to understand people like you, and that's why I'm so happy that you and other people with a more right wing point of view have been daring to post on this mostly leftist site. Share on!
    Hi Folks,
    I appreciate your comments and support. Sometimes I wonder how much and where this community picks up their news. I do not consider myself Right or Left, but more just trying to be a common sense conservative and transparent free market systems thinker and unfortunately all of the politics of the world clogs up the gears of a well running financial economy.

    We have never truly had Free-Markets, since there is so little genuine transparent price discovery in the system, No non-Fiat currency, and no ability for the public to truly have financial and economic stats that reflect any semblance of reality. These are the things that in my mind have to get resolved first as all of this distortion has been taking place for over 40 years and Trump is just the hatchet man to try to restore some sense of health and transparency into the system. Unfortunately when you set a broken bone, it hurts in the process and that is what all of the media loves to harp on.

    Is he perfect, no, he has been sabotaged by lousy advisors, war mongers and congress that has suicidal intentions just to keep him from succeeding. Could we/this country be in a MUCH better place in a few years, absolutely, but it will NOT be from any program or idea that the left has or ever will support. They just do not have the brains or desire to serve the american people.

    It is great to hate DJT and make all sorts of comments and bad jokes about him, but if you have a job, you can thank him, and it is highly doubtful that we would have any level of the peace in the world that we have now if HRC had gotten in.

    Finally I do not see or hear any of you putting out positive suggestions or candidates that would work vs just complaining about what you do not like. If you have good ideas, then present them, but just flaming because it feels good provides no value whatsoever.

    There is a LOT of truth that will come out with the FISA memo, the Barr investigation and the unraveling of the Epstein situation. Too bad that he died, but I suspect that there were too many people who could not bear to let him live. Will be curious to see how much his death actually gets investigated or just swept away. The EO that Trump put in on the seizure of assets of people involved with human trafficking was huge in 12/2016?, as it is the primary entrapment tool that Epstein and his many accomplices and clones use to control and spread the filth of DC and the media. It is used for blackmail and control.

    I hope that in the next year starting soon, all this material will start to bare fruit. There is so much more behind the situation that most people never see. As for all of the hate speech that I hear that you all say about Trump, I listen to his speeches and just do not see it. As for all of the kids and cages at the border, that has been going on for years and started before Obama, so not exclusively a DJT thing, but the organizing of caravans to overwhelm the border is a new thing, and DT is just trying to make sense of it all w/o letting the in wholesale.

    There is only one set of true facts, but lots of opinions on those facts, so it matters where we get our source info. I maybe wrong with this all, but this has been a LONG term trend of degradation starting around when Reagan was elected, but not tied to him and then really accelerated during Bill C.

    Enough for now,
    Your comments and thoughts of clarification/suggestion are most appreciated,
    Many thanks,
    Be Well,
    Ken.
    Last edited by Barry; 08-14-2019 at 12:55 PM.
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  3. TopTop #2
    Barry's Avatar
    Barry
    Founder & Moderator

    Re: Discussions with Trump supporters

    Quote kburgess wrote: View Post
    ..I do not consider myself Right or Left, but more just trying to be a common sense conservative
    Hi Ken,

    Thanks for reaching out. I would definitely consider you Right and I'm not so sure sure about the common sense bit . I'd put George Will in that category, who I respect, if don't agree with, and who also doesn't support Trump.

    if you have a job, you can thank him
    Perhaps. I hasn't screwed up the recovery that Obama started... so far. The most significant economic thing Trump has done was to support the Republican tax cut, which provided a large fiscal stimulus to the economy (mostly to the already wealthy) that was supposed to pay for itself, but instead is hemorrhaging the deficit. I actually don't put the majority of blame on Trump for that one, though. I see it as his part of a Faustian bargain he made with congressional Republicans to support their greedy tax cut agenda, in exchange for their support. I'm sure the fact that it would goose the economy (and deficit) in the short term to get him re-elected wasn't lost on him, and he hopefully wont be around to clean up the deficit mess.

    He's done other economic things that perhaps has moved the needle, including rolling back lots of environmental protections for the sake for fossil fuel company profits and perhaps lower energy prices while again dumping the true costs on the environment for some future administration (coming soon!) to clean up.

    What I do give Trump credit for is very effectively positioning himself as the champion of all the people left behind as the economy and society changes. The only problem is that he doesn't bring anything that really helps other than creating scapegoats for his supporters to blame everything on. He's a first class fear-mongerer... and when people are fearful they are easily controlled and manipulated.
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  5. TopTop #3
    podfish's Avatar
    podfish
    Supporting Member

    Re: Discussions with Trump supporters

    Quote kburgess wrote: View Post
    ... I do not consider myself Right or Left, but more just trying to be a common sense conservative and transparent free market systems thinker and unfortunately all of the politics of the world clogs up the gears of a well running financial economy.
    I think you're kind of on the right, regardless of what you prefer to consider yourself, at least by most ways people characterize right & left.
    We have never truly had Free-Markets, since .... These are the things that in my mind have to get resolved first as all of this distortion has been taking place for over 40 years and Trump is just the hatchet man to try to restore some sense of health and transparency into the system. ......
    Is he perfect, no, he has been sabotaged by lousy advisors, war mongers and congress that has suicidal intentions just to keep him from succeeding.
    and here we reach a key difference in world view. We've never truly "had Free-Markets, since ..." forever. It's a fiction that's useful for thought experiments. The elements that they need aren't possible when you have evolved monkeys running things. It's a miracle that some monkeys can do abstract analysis of systems, but none of them actually implement them as designed. Free markets require things like transparency and accurate assignment of costs in a way that can't happen organically.

    So the idea that it's slipped from some better state I think is indefensible. Also baffling to me is the idea that Trump is in any way going to remove what you see as artificial distortions. Look at his business history - he's exploited the system as well as he can, using lawsuits and unethical business practices at every turn. If you consider blowing up regulation to be improvement, thinking that free markets don't need regulation, I think you're wrong. He uses deregulation as a means to push costs that he should incur out to the general public by despoiling the environment and allowing for monopolistic controls. He hasn't been sabotaged in his quest to achieve noble goals, he's been opposed by two groups: one, other equally slimy people who want to do what he's doing, and then those who want to protect the rights and opportunities of the community at large.

    The closest we get to free markets is to have unconstrained corporations and people who already have wealth. Unfortunately, the poorest actually don't have enough economic value in a free market system to pry wealth from those who have accumulated it. Things like Facebook extract immense amounts of money from massive amounts of people and concentrate it among very few. There's no mechanism for returning any of that money. It's not some virtuous cycle any more, if it ever was, where the mine-owners compete for the services of their miners and return some of the earnings generated by their work, added to by the organizational capabilities of the owners, back to the workers. And, if you look at your history, even then it didn't work worth a damn.
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  7. TopTop #4
    kburgess's Avatar
    kburgess
     

    Re: Discussions with Trump supporters

    The elephant in the room of the economy has nothing to do with China, trade, or regulations, but is all about the Federal debt. We are around 120% debt to GDP and we have some major interest rate inversion on the yield curve and about 1 day away from the 2yr bond being greater than the 20yr bond. This is a key sign that we are headed for a major recession, and printing more money will not get us out of this one. We are in Deep-Shit!!!

    What he has been trying to do is to keep it all afloat a little longer so that he can do the right thing that no one ever talks about and that is to nationalize the Fed, and put us back on an asset backed dollar such as having it pegged to gold. Gold is currently around $1400/oz, but if it was not so supressed it would be over $10k/oz and probably higher. This is a bit of speculation, but if you look between the lines it seems that is what he is trying to do.

    How many of you might be aware of this stuff??

    If not, then there is a bigger picture that you are missing.

    As far as you trying to enlighten me, I am always open to conversation, but so far I have not heard any better ideas or options to counterpoint what he has been doing.

    I do not think that you are fully aware on the level of Deep-Trouble we have been in for the last 20yrs in the realm of monetary policy, economic policy, and systemic corruption of politics.

    How about voter ID and a more active program to eliminate the 2 party tyranny. That would be a great start. How about a line item veto so that the pres can get rid of all the horrendous riders that get attached to all the bills that get floated through.

    Unfortunately politics does have to get played no matter who is in office, so what is the choice???
    Any valid answers would be appreciated.
    Cheers,
    Ken.
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  9. TopTop #5
    kburgess's Avatar
    kburgess
     

    Re: Discussions with Trump supporters

    Yes we do have monkeys running the system, but that is not the intelligence of the small towns. Among us people of the community, we believe in and follow free markets and they do work. Unfortunately when we get mega $T's of money from unlimited printing and no genuine transparency, it all falls apart. I am not against regulation, because we do need the referee and cop to keep the exchanges in line, but it is the Transparency that is key for all of that to work. Equities are regulated, Bonds are regulated, but Derivatives are the wild west, and with unlimited printing, that market is many times the size of the other 2 combined. Thus we have a system that is ripe for chaos which is exactly what we have and the time is coming very soon where it is going to all come crashing down HARD!!!

    Keep your head in the sand at your own peril, but the math of the system does not lie, and if nothing revolutionary is done, we will be in some Deep-Shit very soon.

    Is that the end of the story, I believe that there are and have been plans behind the scenes to stay off this disaster and put us on a right course that could bring forth a HUGE transformation of the planet in a very short time. Do I have hard evidence of this, no, but I do know that none of this situation of doom is new, and that everyone prior to Trump has just lined their own pockets, dumped the debt on to the people, and gotten out before the potato burned their hand. Unfortunately 2016 was the last chance that the patriots in the system had to turn the ship around, and it is a BIG ship, cannot be done easily. Thus he came in with a huge load ahead of him, and as he has said, he did not have to run for pres, and could have easily just continued with his business and be successful. I do take him at his word much more than any other dork that has been in office. And Obama was the one that said that we should get used to a new normal of minimal economic growth. What an idiot!!!

    If I am right, we will know within the next few months and then in his 2nd term, If I am wrong then so be it. All I know is that to be fore-warned is to be fore-armed, and to avoid preparing is not smart.

    Do not take my word on it, go listen to Cathrine Austin Fitts, X22, Greg Hunter, SGT Report, Robert Steele and others spend all of their time trying to wake the sleepers from their daze.

    I do believe that the global leaders ALL understand the severity of the situation and that they can no longer kick the can down the road, and so HAVE come to some type of agreement NOT to destroy the planet and take some level of productive responsibility. I want that to be true, so yes, I do trust that the benevolent leaders of this planet do have a plan.
    Time will tell,
    Be Well,
    Ken.

    Quote podfish wrote: View Post
    I think you're kind of on the right,...
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  11. TopTop #6
    podfish's Avatar
    podfish
    Supporting Member

    Re: Discussions with Trump supporters

    Quote kburgess wrote: View Post
    Yes we do have monkeys running the system, but that is not the intelligence of the small towns. Among us people of the community, we believe in and follow free markets and they do work. Unfortunately when we get mega $T's of money from unlimited printing and no genuine transparency, it all falls apart.
    monkeys aren't just the bad guys. None of us can claim to be totally free of our monkey brains. And no, we don't have free markets even at the small local scale. All you're noticing is that when things are small scale, they might look ok, but they are just little sandboxes where the principles aren't really tested. The ideas don't scale. Period. Not because of malevolent actors; because Adam Smith's blind hand (??) is working with who's out there. Hunting bad guys is futile, as is the idea that 'more perfect' leaders would make an oversimplified idea work somehow.
    The idea that you can characterize the other players as "lining their own pockets" and somehow fail to see Trump as orders of magnitude worse baffles me too. Anyone can say this, but I think we do have a case here that you're seeing what you want to see.
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  13. TopTop #7
    kburgess's Avatar
    kburgess
     

    Re: Discussions with Trump supporters

    All valid perspectives,
    So what is Your solution to the situation???

    Quote podfish wrote: View Post
    monkeys aren't just the bad guys. None of us can claim to be totally free of our monkey brains. ...
    Last edited by Barry; 08-14-2019 at 12:57 PM.
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  15. TopTop #8
    podfish's Avatar
    podfish
    Supporting Member

    Re: Discussions with Trump supporters

    Quote kburgess wrote: View Post
    All valid perspectives,
    So what is Your solution to the situation???
    Glad you asked! no-one else seems to care

    seriously, I'm no more qualified than Trump to try to impose solutions. And that's one of the big problems with him. He advertises himself somewhat honestly as a bull-in-a-china-shop, break things and see if they get better. For some reason that appeals to many who see things as needing breaking. I take an engineer's perspective: when things are broken, re-evaluate the goals of the system, figure out the forces that impact its function, and try to restructure the system to account for its previous failures. Many of these goals can be agreed on by most people, and many of the forces are equally non-controversial. If you don't like the engineer analogy, use judo instead. Usually you get better results by guiding rather than opposing these forces.

    It's too easy to go on too long when you invite me to rant, but here's a few things:
    • get rid of trump and those who support his philosophy. They break things in a way that makes a quality replacement harder to find. They destroy previous attempts at upgrading the systems (e.g. environmental protections, health care) without providing a replacement. It's like busting out your windshield while driving because it's getting covered in mud. You'll find you now are getting mud in your eyes, which is arguably worse.
    • Yang has some really good observations. We have an economic system that still has vestiges of when the kings owned everything including their subjects, and a legal system based on property rights. New people (e.g. our children) must create new things to have anything. That's great in many ways, but pretty much ignores things like, they're not creating more land in Sonoma County. That's a bit unfair, in favor of those of us already here. And with the knowledge economy it's now hugely distorted. Zuckerberg's wealth comes at a price to the rest of us in the system. Also, our soon-to-arrive robot overlords will be able to produce things that their human neighbors can use, so they might as well be charitable. Seriously, even one hundred years ago they realized that 'work' will be more a psychological, therefore a moral, necessity than a practical one. Why medicine, food, and lodging is denied to those who aren't a good fit for our culture is beyond me. That's a terrible way to enforce conformity.
    • So: try to put people with humanitarian impulses into power; try to push for more transparency and more attention to corruption - but not at the expense of innocent bystanders; and don't forget that in our system, there are tons of people who are sure they're right even though they're crazy, and their votes count too. Make sure they get some cookies too, or at least make sure there are some harmless squirrels they can chase.
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    Re: Discussions with Trump supporters

    Quote occihoff wrote: View Post
    You say the LEFT has violence in their hearts?! So what does the Right have in their hearts? Cuts for Medicare, whopping tax cuts for millionaires, loathing non-white immigrants, snatching children away from their poor and desperate families, and on and on... This is sweetness and love? And who is more violent and angry than Donald Trump? What planet are you living on, cyberanvil??
    Physical violence is quite different than any perceived policy. I guess you missed Maxine Waters talk of a call to arms? I guess you missed the gentleman on MSNBC calling for pitchforks and torches. Hummmm?
    “Pitchforks & Torches” Outside Trump Supporters House
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JEv8_Kgma5o
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  19. TopTop #10
    occihoff's Avatar
    occihoff
     

    Re: Discussions with Trump supporters

    Okay, so just for "fairness and balance," please list now the mean things Trump and the current Republicans have been doing.

    Quote cyberanvil wrote: View Post
    Physical violence is quite different than any perceived policy. I guess you missed Maxine Waters talk of a call to arms? I guess you missed the gentleman on MSNBC calling for pitchforks and torches. Hummmm?
    “Pitchforks & Torches” Outside Trump Supporters House
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JEv8_Kgma5o
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  20. TopTop #11
    occihoff's Avatar
    occihoff
     

    Re: Discussions with Trump supporters

    Interesting to hear your points of view, Ken, but to dismiss the Left by declaring that "they just do not have the brains or desire to serve the american people" is way over the line of reasoned discourse!
    Quote kburgess wrote: View Post
    ... Could we/this country be in a MUCH better place in a few years, absolutely, but it will NOT be from any program or idea that the left has or ever will support. They just do not have the brains or desire to serve the american people....
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  22. TopTop #12
    occihoff's Avatar
    occihoff
     

    Re: Discussions with Trump supporters

    You don't hear hate in Trump's speeches?! It's hard to respond to that one, Ken. But how about his actual policies? I wish you would respond to my comment to cyberanvil listing just a few of his most salient policies such as huge tax cuts for the rich, disdain for the poor, etc,etc.

    Quote kburgess wrote: View Post
    ... As for all of the hate speech that I hear that you all say about Trump, I listen to his speeches and just do not see it. ...
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    Re: Discussions with Trump supporters

    Quote occihoff wrote: View Post
    Interesting to hear your points of view, Ken, but to dismiss the Left by declaring that "they just do not have the brains or desire to serve the american people" is way over the line of reasoned discourse!
    have you conveyed this to the Democratic candidates? At present, reasoned discourse seems to be missing. Label, attack,condemn, pontificate.
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  25. TopTop #14

    Re: Discussions with Trump supporters

    Quote occihoff wrote: View Post
    Okay, so just for "fairness and balance," please list now the mean things Trump and the current Republicans have been doing.
    Are you not a better judge? Hummm. Well they have been drawing attention to the fact that Biden's biggest achievement is to have been Obama's VP. They have drawn attention to his being wrong on most issues. "Please Mr. President, don't shoot that Osama man." ha ha
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  26. TopTop #15

    Re: Discussions with Trump supporters

    Quote occihoff wrote: View Post
    You don't hear hate in Trump's speeches?! It's hard to respond to that one, Ken. But how about his actual policies? I wish you would respond to my comment to cyberanvil listing just a few of his most salient policies such as huge tax cuts for the rich, disdain for the poor, etc,etc.
    You are obviously building a number of Strawmen. Why don't you separate heartfelt disdain from factual matter?

    Geeze! You actually want me to load your gun?
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  28. TopTop #16
    kburgess's Avatar
    kburgess
     

    Re: Discussions with Trump supporters

    Those are all good generalized suggestions, but unless there are specifics, they are tough to quantify.
    The idea of 'Getting in better people' is great, but who???

    I think that you are operating from the assumption that our system basically works and that Trump is destroying that good thing. I think that perspective is massively flawed. Our system has been fundamentally broken for a VERY long time, but has been continually operating with the illusion of success, when it has just been running on borrowed time.

    Trump is here to break it down and start again with as much of a managed process vs a chaotic one via depression, war, etc. Sort of like a military basic training for new recruits. No one said that it would be easy, but for those of us who understand the depth of the rot, we realize that it may be required.

    In one of my previous posts I layed out some specific things that I think would help immensely. I try to look at the facts, present them, and then look at the suite of potential solutions. I too am an engineer and realize that only by getting ALL the fact and being able to define the REAL problem can a solution be realized.

    All of this is speculation on both of our sides, but I have followed this behind the scene's type world for over 20 years and know that very little real news ever gets out to the masses. That is why I listen to the names that I have previously mentioned.

    Your ideas are a good start, but for action to start it needs to be a lot more than general concepts and as far as you needing to be asked for ideas, please feel free to present them at will.

    Here are some links for good sources,
    Thanks,
    Ken.
    https://robertdavidsteele.com/
    https://home.solari.com/
    https://www.corbettreport.com/
    https://www.usdebtclock.org/index.html
    https://www.gurufocus.com/yield_curve.php

    Quote podfish wrote: View Post
    Glad you asked! no-one else seems to care ...
    Last edited by Barry; 08-14-2019 at 10:00 PM.
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  30. TopTop #17
    podfish's Avatar
    podfish
    Supporting Member

    Re: Discussions with Trump supporters

    in response to the comment: "You don't hear hate in Trump's speeches?! " you get this:

    Quote cyberanvil wrote: View Post
    You are obviously building a number of Strawmen. Why don't you separate heartfelt disdain from factual matter?

    Geeze! You actually want me to load your gun?
    and this from Ken, earlier
    As for all of the hate speech that I hear that you all say about Trump, I listen to his speeches and just do not see it.
    If trumpy's supporters really can't hear it in his speech and see it in his actions, but think my calling him 'trumpy' is clear indication that I hate the bastard, I think we're only faking a discussion. When someone can identify rhetorical tricks such as posing a straw-man argument but don't feel able to spot intent in public diatribes, they're pretty much unable to see the same underlying facts. (and that's a legitimate use of the term, dammit. His spoken words establish the facts of his attitudes to an extent satisfactory to the legally-fictional 'reasonable person')
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  32. TopTop #18
    kburgess's Avatar
    kburgess
     

    Re: Discussions with Trump supporters

    As I have posted before, it is the POLITICAL-ESTABLISHMENT that does not have the public's best interest in heart, and the Left is just a LOT more vocal and has the power of the media to enforce its agenda. Both sides make equally idiotic decisions and finally DJT is someone who is less of the career political class than anyone else.

    Perfect, no, but much better because he has a lot less entrapments on him once he can unravel all the layers of BS attacks/accusations that he has been dealing with for the last 2 years.
    Ken.

    Quote occihoff wrote: View Post
    Interesting to hear your points of view, Ken, but to dismiss the Left by declaring that "they just do not have the brains or desire to serve the american people" is way over the line of reasoned discourse!
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  33. TopTop #19
    podfish's Avatar
    podfish
    Supporting Member

    Re: Discussions with Trump supporters

    weird that I have so much time today. I hope that stops soon...

    Quote kburgess wrote: View Post
    Those are all good generalized suggestions, but unless there are specifics, they are tough to quantify.
    The idea of 'Getting in better people' is great, but who???

    I think that you are operating from the assumption that our system basically works and that Trump is destroying that good thing.......
    then I've totally failed to explain myself. No, the system sucks. He's just an idiot who thinks that after breaking it, things will be better. Actually that's not fair -- he's trying to exploit its weaknesses, and making allies out of people who think that breaking it will be better.
    Trump is here to break it down and start again with as much of a managed process
    nothing backs up the idea he has any plan to create any "managed process" about anything. No-one (but him) has ever claimed he has those kind of skills, nothing in his history shows it. Look at his businesses in any detail and find one that's succeeded in anything more than letting him extract cash - they don't succeed for his partners or for society as a whole. Trump U, for example
    In one of my previous posts I layed out some specific things that I think would help immensely. I try to look at the facts, present them, and then look at the suite of potential solutions. I too am an engineer and realize that only by getting ALL the fact and being able to define the REAL problem can a solution be realized.
    then you are falling into the stereotypical problem of engineers. Remember Jimmy Carter? In college we learned this informally- bringing 'engineering thinking' to interactions with people is a great way to lose girlfriends and be unpopular at parties. You can't start over clean in our world, you can't understand all the factors, identifying clear, logical solutions is a great path to irrelevance as a politician. That's not where anything starts. My other posts should make this clear, I have little interest except over beers (ok, this is similar, but I still don't really care) in "specific solutions".

    So, locally then, solve homelessness. Trump can! he'd crack down on the losers. If you think anyone will offer a 'solution' you really haven't paid any attention. There is no 'solution' - nothing will 'work' in an engineering sense. We need people working to find housing, help sometimes unwilling people with survival skills, find ways they have access to resources they need, keep them out of the way of people who just don't want to see them, don't spend any 'government money', ad nauseam. This is one, local problem. There are zillions, and none have a solution in an engineering sense. Actually, they might: nature's engineering is pretty good - look at anthills and other emergent systems. Problem is, nature has a tendency to use things like pain and death and carnivores in its systems. We'd like to do better.
    Last edited by Barry; 08-14-2019 at 10:02 PM.
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  35. TopTop #20
    kburgess's Avatar
    kburgess
     

    Re: Discussions with Trump supporters

    I see a man who has been horrendously accused and hampered for the last 2 years with relentless attack and misrepresentation and yes, if you were in that situation, I suspect that you would not last long, and if you did, you would be a little bit pissed.

    This COUNTRY elected him, and the Left has been doing everything possible to disqualify him and that election. Clearly CA is not the State that elected him, and there are a LOT of people that love what he is doing. Go talk to them and find out the world that they are living in, and how he is speaking for them. They are NOT stupid, but they are also not CA, NY, or OR or any other deep blue State.

    I am not going to respond to every little issue because I have a life to life and it is not with Wacco, although I do enjoy having a place to organize my thoughts on the matter.

    I suspect that a LOT of the basis behind the tax cuts was to appease the R's so that he could at least get a few things done. You must think that politics is a clean business, it is clearly not, and I suspect that he has had to sacrifice a LOT to just get the support to stay in office. Hopefully 2020 will give us another 4 years and a stronger House and Senate so that we can make a bit more headway in the mess.

    This is the reality of a very dirty and corrupt system, and not some ideological world where we think that we actually get to see the truth of the situation. We do not and he is in a rotten position trying to clean out the cesspool that he is neck deep in for the benefit of the people who elected him, and yes, I am one of those people.
    Ken.

    ps- I may be wrong on some of my perspectives, but I do know that DJT is a world better than the other option at the time. We did not have a multi-choice, it was BINARY, and sometimes a binary choice sucks because it does not give you the level of choice and variety that comes close to representing the needs of the country. The original intent of the Founding-Fathers was to have the States manage the majority of the personal affairs of peoples lives and the Federal side just those areas that States could not address. Take a look at the Declaration and Constitution and read it to refresh yourself on what this country was founded on.

    Quote occihoff wrote: View Post
    You don't hear hate in Trump's speeches?! It's hard to respond to that one, Ken. But how about his actual policies? I wish you would respond to my comment to cyberanvil listing just a few of his most salient policies such as huge tax cuts for the rich, disdain for the poor, etc,etc.
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  37. TopTop #21
    occihoff's Avatar
    occihoff
     

    Re: Discussions with Trump supporters

    Cyberanvil, instead of being so snarky, why can't you actually answer my specific questions regarding the things the Trumpsters are doing that seem so mean and cruel to many of us?

    Quote cyberanvil wrote: View Post
    You are obviously building a number of Strawmen. Why don't you separate heartfelt disdain from factual matter?

    Geeze! You actually want me to load your gun?
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  39. TopTop #22
    occihoff's Avatar
    occihoff
     

    Re: Discussions with Trump supporters

    I mentioned several Trump and Republican policies that seem horrendously cruel to me, and like cyberanvil you just don't address them. (Although unlike cyberanvil you are never snarky.) I'm not asking you to waste your time on lengthy discourses, just tell us, for example, why increasing tax breaks for the very rich and raising the national debt while trying to cut Medicare for the poor is not cruel and greedy. Or why oppressing desperate and impoverished asylum seekers while living your life of wealth and luxury is not cruel. I respect your points of view, but I can't afford to waste my scarce time discussing things with people who won't respond to my very fundamental and specific questions.
    Quote kburgess wrote: View Post
    I see a man who has been horrendously accused and hampered for the last 2 years ...
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  41. TopTop #23
    kburgess's Avatar
    kburgess
     

    Re: Discussions with Trump supporters

    I recognize that almost all of us live in our self created bubbles of reality,
    That which feel comfortable is that which is most familiar and non-threatening and we generally defend our ability to stay there. Thus voluntarily swallowing the Red-Pill is not all that common unless your desire to get beyond deception is greater than your desire to stay comfortable.

    The people that I have listed as sources for info are a great place to start, and any YT search you will find them. I do not follow them every day, but have been familiar with that style of behind the scenes thinking since 911 and my first real intro to it all w/Michael Ruppert, since passed. He opened my eyes to all of the planned intentionality behind 911 and it has only gotten better from there.

    Before you make more comments on what I have to say, take a look at some of those references and recognize that these are all independent thinkers who are also dedicated to revealing the truth regardless on where it might lead. Not all are Trump supporting clones, and some are critical of him, but all see that his role is absolutely ESSENTIAL to restoring the true foundation of what the USA was brought into existence for.

    It is up to US to truly represent the voice of freedom and usher in the next age of human civilization because no one else is here to do it. We are the only ones, He was selected for this task by the military patriots who saw the choice ahead of them, and could not bear to have our planet destroyed for the sake of a bunch of psychopathic egomaniacs.

    Just my thoughts,
    Be Well,
    Thanks
    Ken.
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  42. TopTop #24

    Re: Discussions with Trump supporters

    Quote podfish wrote: View Post
    If trumpy's supporters really can't hear it in his speech and see it in his actions, but think my calling him 'trumpy' is clear indication that I hate the bastard, I think we're only faking a discussion....
    Ah Haw! Buried in you eloquent response is that Democratic buzzword "hate". You "hate the bastard". Hate is such a elemental state. It's politics man! It's not the end of the world. Sooner or later the Democrats will have their day. At one time Obummer had both houses, but I didn't hate. I intensely disliked Obummer, but I never degenerated into hate. You were doing so good and then the hate thing. In my mind, you've lost some credibility. Hate skews truth.
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  44. TopTop #25

    Re: Discussions with Trump supporters

    Quote podfish wrote: View Post
    We need people working to find housing, help sometimes unwilling people with survival skills, find ways they have access to resources they need, keep them out of the way of people who just don't want to see them, don't spend any 'government money', ad nauseam.
    The problem with Democrats is that, well they are Democrats. Endless critiques and no/few specifics. I suppose Warren and Yang come close. But their solutions have some pretty big holes.
    Easy to shoot from the outside. and where were you when Obama had total control? There will pie in the sky when the Dems get control. Really? Tell Elijah to wake up.

    BALTIMORE CALLING!!!

    FACT CHECKING President Trumps Statements On Baltimore & Democrat Elijah Cummings district:

    *ALLEGATION: Baltimore is considered the worst-run city in America.
    *ANALYSIS: True. The BBC featured the city in a scathing report on poverty in America. At least 25 percent of the people in Cummings' congressional district live in poverty. "If you want to know what poverty in America looks like, well this is it," the BBC reporter declared.
    *ALLEGATION: Baltimore is infested with rats and rodents.
    *ANALYSIS: True. According to Orkin Pest Control, Baltimore is one of the most rat-infested cities in America. The pest control company ranks Baltimore No. 6 on its list. All of the Top 10 most rat-infested cities are controlled by Democrats, by the way
    *ALLEGATION: Baltimore is a filthy mess.
    *ANALYSIS: True. In April the Baltimore Sun Editorial Board called out the city's trashy reputation. "Food containers, balled up clothes, paper, banana peels, plastic bags and tons of other pieces of litter line the shoulders of roads, pile up in alleys and are strewn across fields and yards,” an editorial in the newspaper said
    *ALLEGATION: Baltimore is a dangerous city.
    *ANALYSIS: True. Baltimore is deadlier than Chicago and Detroit, according to crime statistics released by the FBI, and had the highest homicide rate in the nation in 2018, USA Today reports.
    *FINAL ANALYSIS: President Trump was absolutely correct to call Maryland's 7th Congressional District a "disgusting, rat and rodent infested mess." The truth is that what’s happening in places like Baltimore has nothing to do with race. But it has everything to do with politics and inept Democratic lawmakers who have turned their backs on their most vulnerable.
    Baltimore - Mayor Catherine Pugh says you can smell the rats
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XHVK82uCPEw
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  46. TopTop #26

    Re: Discussions with Trump supporters

    Quote occihoff wrote: View Post
    Cyberanvil, instead of being so snarky, why can't you actually answer my specific questions regarding the things the Trumpsters are doing that seem so mean and cruel to many of us?
    Why do you assume yourself to be the speaker of truth? Or here is an easier one, I don't agree with you and your attempts to set yourself up for a grand reveal. Why don't you just come out with it. What if I don't think Trump is mean and cruel? Where does that leave you?
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  48. TopTop #27
    juna
     

    Re: Discussions with Trump supporters

    Ken,

    Do you support drilling in national parks
    or near water sources?
    Do you support the ivory trade?
    Do you support killing safaris of our wildlife?
    Do you support killing of bears, wolves, and wild horses?
    Do you support weakening laws on protecting endangered species?
    Do you support separating parents and babies?
    Do you support government officials making derogatory slurs against other countries
    or our cities?

    Just wondering.

    Juna
    Trump administration plans to drastically weaken law protecting endangered species
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  50. TopTop #28

    Re: Discussions with Trump supporters

    Quote occihoff wrote: View Post
    I mentioned several Trump and Republican policies that seem horrendously cruel to me, and like cyberanvil you just don't address them. (Although unlike cyberanvil you are never snarky.) I'm not asking you to waste your time on lengthy discourses, just tell us, for example, why increasing tax breaks for the very rich and raising the national debt while trying to cut Medicare for the poor is not cruel and greedy. Or why oppressing desperate and impoverished asylum seekers while living your life of wealth and luxury is not cruel. ...
    You'd get better responses if you dropped all the buzz words. No need to add those Kool-Aid inspired adjectives. Btw, snarky is my good side.

    Ashley Judd is a Nasty Woman. 411 -- I'm a Nasty Man.

    I am a nasty woman
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8IApUwjHU8
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  52. TopTop #29

    Re: Discussions with Trump supporters

    Quote juna wrote: View Post
    Ken,

    Do you support drilling in national parks
    or near water sources?
    Do you support the ivory trade?
    Do you support killing safaris of our wildlife?..
    These "Gotcha" questions are hilarious and at the same time sad. How can any discussion proceed with these kind of obviously false/misleading and agenda driven questions? You know the answers that you're looking for. So just spit out your spill.
    How many times do you beat your wife? Is this what we're reduced to?
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  54. TopTop #30
    podfish's Avatar
    podfish
    Supporting Member

    Re: Discussions with Trump supporters

    Quote cyberanvil wrote: View Post
    Ah Haw! Buried in you eloquent response is that Democratic buzzword "hate". You "hate the bastard".
    dude, really? you think that was an accidental slip of the tongue? or an inadvertent reveal of my true feelings after all? I won't claim it's all that eloquent of a response, but it's not intended to be read without some sense of context either. If you're happy with 'gotcha', go to town with it.
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