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  1. TopTop #31
    podfish's Avatar
    podfish
    Supporting Member

    Re: 5G in Sebastopol & Graton

    Quote M/M wrote: View Post
    ...He mentioned that not all 5G will be sent via towers; some 5G cable is going underground??? ...
    Anyone who talks about 5G cable is either trying to fool you or is the last person you should turn to for information. It's like saying "cars are dangerous. Including the cars that have four legs and eat hay". It's possible they're right, but they aren't inspiring a lot of confidence that they understand the field. As for the massive fires, the day they had a bay-area world series we had a major earthquake.
    Last edited by Barry; 04-15-2019 at 12:59 PM.
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  3. TopTop #32
    geomancer's Avatar
    geomancer
     

    Re: 5G in Sebastopol & Graton

    Regarding the Loma Prieta earthquake, a lot of people went home from work early that day (including me) thus the Cypress structure was not jammed with cars when it collapsed. Hundreds would have died crushed beneath the upper deck on a typical day. Divine providence in the timing? Why not? I returned to work on Monday to find I would have had a tall bookcase fall on me if I had stayed at my desk.
    Last edited by Barry; 04-15-2019 at 01:00 PM.
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  4. TopTop #33
    M/M's Avatar
    M/M
     

    Re: 5G in Sebastopol & Graton

    Quote podfish wrote: View Post
    Anyone who talks about 5G cable is either trying to fool you or is the last person you should turn to for information. It's like saying "cars are dangerous. Including the cars that have four legs and eat hay". It's possible they're right, but they aren't inspiring a lot of confidence that they understand the field. As for the massive fires, the day they had a bay-area world series we had a major earthquake.
    LOL Podfish, I'm clearly not technically inclined... nor do I want to be apologist for what is not factual.. though I think there are some smart people who raise excellent questions... that deserve maybe our holding those questions.. until we know some answers... if we ever do..

    The link about fires and 5G was 5G may have made (DEW) directed energy weapons usable... Scenes post Korea's fire resemble California after fires. As I said.. more questions than answers...

    Trust Life

    We have no reason to harbor any mistrust against our world,
    for it is not against us. If it has terrors, they are our terrors.
    If it has abysses, these abysses belong to us. If there are dangers,
    we must try to love them, and only if we could arrange our lives
    in accordance with the principle that tells us that we must
    always trust the difficult, then what appears to us to be alien
    will become our most intimate and trusted experience.

    How could we forget those ancient myths that stand
    at the beginning of all races - the myths about dragons
    that at the last moment are transformed into princesses.
    Perhaps all the dragons in our lives are only princesses
    waiting for us to act, just once, with beauty and courage.
    Perhaps everything that frightens us is,
    in its deepest essence, something helpless that wants our love.

    So you must not be frightened if a sadness rises before you
    larger than any you’ve ever seen, if an anxiety like light and
    cloud shadows moves over your hands and everything you do.
    You must realize that something has happened to you.
    Life has not forgotten you; it holds you in its hands and
    will not let you fall. Why do you want to shut out of your life
    any uneasiness, any miseries, or any depressions?
    For after all, you do not know what work these conditions
    are doing inside you.


    ~ Rainer Marie Rilke
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  6. TopTop #34
    M/M's Avatar
    M/M
     

    Re: 5G in Sebastopol & Graton

    Quote geomancer wrote: View Post
    Regarding the Loma Prieta earthquake, a lot of people went home from work early that day (including me) thus the Cypress structure was not jammed with cars when it collapsed. Hundreds would have died crushed beneath the upper deck on a typical day. Divine providence in the timing? Why not? I returned to work on Monday to find I would have had a tall bookcase fall on me if I had stayed at my desk.
    YES.... Divine Providence, which some may recognize under other names

    There is also Karma (perhaps in the case of Svalbard's seed bank and melting permafrost; Svalbard was also one of the first sites to receive fallout from Fukushima's disaster in 2011)
    Last edited by Barry; 04-14-2019 at 10:45 PM.
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  7. TopTop #35
    M/M's Avatar
    M/M
     

    Re: 5G in Sebastopol & Graton

    Developments around the world: 5G: The Dominoes Are Starting To Fall (or calling for more studies)

    Portland Oregon; Florence and Rome, Italy; Vaud and Geneva, Switzerland; Netherlands; Germany and more....
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  8. TopTop #36
    spam1's Avatar
    spam1
     

    Re: 5G in Sebastopol & Graton

    Quote M/M wrote: View Post
    Developments around the world: 5G: The Dominoes Are Starting To Fall (or calling for more studies)
    I read the link above and I can attest that much of what they say is true, but taken so far out of context that the meaning is completely distorted. For example, it says:

    Prior to its use as a communications technology, 5G was a military weapon

    Well, if you mean using an electronically steered antenna to focus RF in the direction you want, then yes, it was first developed for radars. It replaced the mechanically steered antennas.
    and:

    5G will be hundreds of times as powerful as 4G

    And, if by powerful you capability to transmit data, yes, that's the point. But if you mean in terms of radiated power, then no.

    But that is like saying water is dangerous, so dangerous that people have died from drinking water (link to water toxicity) and the CIA uses water to torture people (link to waterboarding), and there is no federally accepted safe level for drinking water (probably no one thought to set an upper limit as it is silly). Oh, and water kills over 3000 Americans every year (link to drownings)

    So, net-net, 5G has all the problems of 4G (not specifying if or what they are), but just at lower overall levels, directed only at the users, and for shorter times. Seems to be a better choice. But, because it is one G more than 4G, it is engendering a strong response; illogical in my opinion, but still strong.

    Remember, a single false article in the Lancet 30 years ago yields thousands of unnecessarily diseased children (Vaccine causes Autism trope); and there is nothing that will remove the false facts.
    Last edited by Barry; 04-17-2019 at 01:36 PM.
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  10. TopTop #37
    M/M's Avatar
    M/M
     

    Re: 5G in Sebastopol & Graton

    Quote spam1 wrote: View Post
    I read the link above and I can attest that much of what they say is true, but taken so far out of context that the meaning is completely distorted. For example, it says:
    Prior to its use as a communications technology, 5G was a military weapon
    See: well-named Active Denial System: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Active_Denial_System

    So, net-net, 5G has all the problems of 4G (not specifying if or what they are), but just at lower overall levels, directed only at the users, and for shorter times.
    Just the opposite in fact.. directed at everyone 24/7... user/nonuser .. continuously...

    Whereas 5G phones won't be readily available until next year and beyond in some cases... 5G will allow AI projects to take off.... AI (artificial intelligence) really likes things such as robots, bionics, driverless vehicles.

    Musk who is going to be launching most of satellites for Western US 5G.. is also associated with this:
    Elon Musk-linked scientists working on brain probes for DARPA John Vibes Fri, 12 Apr 2019
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  11. TopTop #38
    podfish's Avatar
    podfish
    Supporting Member

    Re: 5G in Sebastopol & Graton

    Quote M/M wrote: View Post
    ....Just the opposite in fact.. directed at everyone 24/7... user/nonuser .. continuously...
    you've mentioned earlier you're not all that technical, and in this case you're missing the whole point of 'directed'. It's available for everybody, I suppose, but the point is to avoid saturating the area in favor of targeting the communication to its receiver. Think of cupping your hands as a megaphone and facing the person you're trying to talk to.
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  13. TopTop #39
    M/M's Avatar
    M/M
     

    Re: 5G in Sebastopol & Graton

    Quote podfish wrote: View Post
    you've mentioned earlier you're not all that technical, and in this case you're missing the whole point of 'directed'. It's available for everybody, I suppose, but the point is to avoid saturating the area in favor of targeting the communication to its receiver. Think of cupping your hands as a megaphone and facing the person you're trying to talk to.
    I'm not technical.. I guess - given the Internet of Things - the refrigerator letting us know what is due to expire, et cetera - wouldn't sending and receiving capability be on all the time as it now, only handling more data faster ??
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  14. TopTop #40
    spam1's Avatar
    spam1
     

    Re: 5G in Sebastopol & Graton

    Quote M/M wrote: View Post
    See: well-named Active Denial System: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Active_Denial_System
    I apologize if my analogy wasn't clear enough... I'm not well aquainted with the microwave weapons, but my understanding is that they use phase-array systems that are NOT electronically steerable (the electronic steering components can't handle the high power and high frequency); to say they are related is true, both use EMF and directional antennas, but energy densities are at least 100,000 times different. and at 95 GHz a heavy shirt blocks the radiation. Like the difference between a raindrop and a firehose.

    Quote M/M wrote: View Post
    Just the opposite in fact.. directed at everyone 24/7... user/nonuser .. continuously...
    This statement is simply not true. I am very familiar with 5G and it will ONLY be directed to the user, and only when using it. The point is to save money on transmitter power, and continuously transmitting, and transmitting omni-directionally (directed at everyone) would really defeat that point. I don't understand where or how you came by that view. It is true, that directional beams are not very tight (jet radar beams are 100 times tighter), but on the order of 60 times tighter than the current 4G beams. And the beams are used on the receivers too, so the transmitter power is even further reduced. It is like the large TV antennas that you rotate to make the signal seem stronger, only with 5G you don't have to physically rotate the antenna, it is done electronically.

    Quote M/M wrote: View Post
    Whereas 5G phones won't be readily available until next year and beyond in some cases... 5G will allow AI projects to take off.... AI (artificial intelligence) really likes things such as robots, bionics, driverless vehicles.
    Not exactly. AI requires high computational power and likely will remain localized; 5G allows faster response times (it has lower latency than current cell phone methods), so that the AI in a big room in Colorado can get a response fast enough to compute whether to send the trolley into the homeless guy on the side track, or allow it to continue unabated to the family with the small children (see the trolley problem, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trolley_problem)

    Quote M/M wrote: View Post
    Musk who is going to be launching most of satellites for Western US 5G.. is also associated with this:
    Elon Musk-linked scientists working on brain probes for DARPA John Vibes Fri, 12 Apr 2019
    Yes, he is. But it is explicitly NOT 5G. I am very familiar with his program. Also Jeff Bezos;And Boeing and an outfit called OneWeb. There are at least 4 major players in LEO internet and maybe another 2 dozen smaller players for satellite based data communications. But these are not 5G.

    They use similar technology (radio waves) but 5G is principally a common set of cell-phone standards that allow new capabilities to lower power consumption, increase capacity without increasing cell sites (that is, making current cell sites more capable of handling high data loads), lowering operating costs. It is very complicated how they do it, and it wasn't really possible before due the technology not being invented yet. But a lot of progress has happened in the last 4 years. The main hit against 5G (which also supports 4G as a legacy system) is that the early deployment hardly more than 4G. ATT's is 5G 'ready'; Verizon is low rate 5G. So it will be a few years before the main benefits are realized.
    Last edited by Barry; 04-16-2019 at 10:41 PM.
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  16. TopTop #41
    podfish's Avatar
    podfish
    Supporting Member

    Re: 5G in Sebastopol & Graton

    Quote M/M wrote: View Post
    - wouldn't sending and receiving capability be on all the time as it now, only handling more data faster ??
    as Spam1 explains too, the idea here is to get greater effective bandwidth at lower power by being smarter about communication. So no, it's not targeting anyone all the time, certainly not at any high power level. The analogy to shouting through cupped hands isn't that far fetched. It'll be like having a bunch of people mixed into a crowd, where each one can turn to the nearest people and call out any message sent directly to them. This, rather than having an auctioneer with a stack of Marshall amplifiers that can be heard by everyone, ripping through all the messages, one after another, as fast as he can. Which is what we in effect have now.

    If you want to think of this as selfishly motivated (which it is, because, business...) the telcos want to get messages out less wastefully and faster. It's expensive to use more power than you need to.
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  18. TopTop #42
    M/M's Avatar
    M/M
     

    Re: 5G in Sebastopol & Graton

    for consideration: 5G's effects on climate; plus authors also discuss "By now, we should have learned the lessons of how Washington has handled other scientifically proven dangers to the public..."
    The Race Towards Extinction: Climate Change versus the 5G Microwave Technology Roll Out

    (and are rockets carrying satellites for 5G going to be launched via this new beautiful totally non-green plane?
    Stratolaunch Images: Paul Allen's Giant Rocket-Launching Plane)

    Guest Blog: ‘Health Exemption for Firefighters sends a Message to the World’

    "Firefighters live and sleep in the stations when on duty, and have experienced significant RF radiation exposure." Imaging studies showed actual brain changes in firefighters.

    in the 'you can't make this up' category:
    Exposure to 5G Small Cell Towers Can Cause Excessive Sweating. New Prescription for Excessive Armpit Sweating Approved by FDA in Time for Massive 5G Rollout

    Video announcing med tells us Qbrexza is flammable. There are many listed side effects; however, nothing is said about long-term side effects of meds that interfere w/acetylcholine functions - such as memory loss and more.
    Last edited by Barry; 04-18-2019 at 11:13 AM.
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  19. TopTop #43
    M/M's Avatar
    M/M
     

    Re: 5G in Sebastopol & Graton

    Quote spam1 wrote: View Post
    I apologize if my analogy wasn't clear enough...
    Hi Spam1... I appreciate your reaching out and explaining what you have; despite many readings, I probably only understand a glimmer and won't waste either of our time by pretending I could catch up or get close to your level of expertise. I did try to find the 24/7 omnidirectional reference, and that may have been something I concluded from statements like: "No plant or tree, insect, bird, fish, animal or human will be able to escape 24-hour a day exposure to enormous amounts of electromagnetic pollution."

    When letter written to Elon Musk and reports say things like: "Elon Musk is set to launch the first 4,425 5G satellites in June 2019 and “blanket” the Earth with 5G, in breach of countless international treaties." I hear you are saying that the satellites in question have nothing to do w/5G but are satellites launched for other purposes. And doing a bit of research - led right into issue of spectra - it seems that 5G and LEO are not compatible and elsewhere it seems one project will lead to 5G:
    The satellites built in the plant will be used primarily by OneWeb for its global internet services, but satellites also will be available for other commercial satellite operators and government customers globally as early as 2018. ... Of course, telecom operators are one of OneWeb’s primary customer bases, and OneWeb has designed its systems to be fully compatible and integrated with the cellular networks, including as they move to 5G.
    For me, the upfront legislation (starting with the TCA - Telecommunications Act in 1996) that gives all power to industry and none to governments or to any concerns for health & welfare of life; industry suppression or denial of health effects, which are known since 3G and perhaps earlier - make it difficult to trust the industry in general.
    Last edited by Barry; 04-18-2019 at 10:50 AM.
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  21. TopTop #44
    podfish's Avatar
    podfish
    Supporting Member

    Re: 5G in Sebastopol & Graton

    Quote M/M wrote: View Post
    Hi Spam1... I appreciate your reaching out and explaining what you have; despite many readings, I probably only understand a glimmer and won't waste either of our time by pretending I could catch up or get close to your level of expertise.
    from your posts and others in this area (not just this specific topic, but any tech/science issue) I'm realizing that google searching can be a bad thing. People by nature form pretty strong opinions on a grab-bag of knowledge. It's extremely difficult to know, without actual guided study, where your impressions are right and where they're wrong.

    I had a teacher describe acquiring knowledge in an eye-opening way. He pointed out that when you get introduced to a new topic, you are building a mental model that fits the information you're being given. A lot of it is right, and a lot is not. When the next topic gets introduced, you have to tear down the mental structure you've built up and replace the parts that were based on misunderstanding. This is a really powerful way to look at knowledge. There's an immense use of analogy when explaining complex topics to people who don't have time to build up enough background knowledge (when Feinmann was asked to explain magnetism in simple terms, he said "you can't"...) and the danger of using analogies is that the more they resonate with people, the more they think they understand. Since the analogy is imperfect, though, they can't tell when they're drawing correct inferences. For example, in my shouting-through-cupped-hand analogy in an earlier post, you might think that you could get spit on if you were too close. That wouldn't apply to 5G antenna.

    So when Musk talks about 'blanketing' the earth, that's a hyperbolic analogy. Another way to think about it - the earth's gravity goes on forever, across the universe. It's meaningless to talk about where it 'ends'. But for practical purposes, it's not noticeable on Mars or the sun. You aren't affected by the moon's gravity, but the earth as a whole is. Sure, there's debate among knowledgeable researchers about the safety, but us amateurs are fooling ourselves if we cherry-pick scary items out of them. You have no way to do a lateral study, pulling equivalent evidence out of a wide range of research, and weighing them against each other.

    I'm reading 'The Myth of the Mirror Neuron' by Hickock. It's a scientist's rebuttal of some widely-held beliefs, in a relatively non-technical form, that gives you a really good idea of how to make a case. For anyone interested in any of these sort-of-science based controversies, it's instructive. And you'll learn something about the brain and the current state of brain research while you're at it.
    Last edited by Barry; 04-18-2019 at 10:53 AM.
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  23. TopTop #45
    Dogenzip's Avatar
    Dogenzip
     

    180 Scientists warn of dangers of 5G

    Scientists warn of potential serious health effects of 5G

    We the undersigned, more than 180 scientists and doctors from 35 countries, recommend a moratorium on the roll-out of the fifth generation, 5G, for telecommunication until potential hazards for human health and the environment have been fully investigated by scientists independent from industry. 5G will substantially increase exposure to radio frequency electromagnetic fields (RF-EMF) on top of the 2G,3G, 4G, Wi-Fi , etc. for telecommunications already in place. RF-EMF has been proven to be harmful for humans and the environment.

    5G leads to massive increase of mandatory exposure to wireless radiation 5G technology is effective only over short distance. It is poorly transmitted through solid material. Many new antennas will be required and full-scale implementation will result in antennas every 10 to 12 houses in urban areas,thus massively increasing mandatory exposure.With ”the ever more extensive use of wireless technologies,” nobody can avoid to be exposed.Because on top of the increased number of5G-transmitters (even within housing, shops and in hospitals)according to estimates, ”10 to 20 billion connections” (to refrigerators, washing machines, surveillance cameras, self-driving cars and buses, etc.) will be parts of the Internet of Things. All these together can cause a substantial increase in the total, long term RF-EMF exposure to all EU citizens.Harmful effects of RF-EMF exposure are already proven.

    More than 230 scientists from 41 countries have expressed their “serious concerns” regarding the ubiquitous and increasing exposure to EMF generated by electric and wireless devices already before the additional 5G roll-out. They refer to the fact that ”numerous recent scientific publications have shown that EMF affects living organisms at levels well below most international and national guidelines”. Effects include increased cancer risk, cellular stress, increase in harmful free radicals, genetic damages, structural and functional changes of the reproductive system, learning and memory deficits, neurological disorders,and negative impacts on general well-being in humans. Damage goes well beyond the human race, as there is growing evidence of harmful effects to both plants and animals.

    After the scientists’ appeal was written in 2015 additional research has convincingly confirmed serious health risks from RF-EMF fields from wireless technology. The world’s largest study (25 million US dollar)National Toxicology Program (NTP), shows statistically significant increase in the incidence of brain and heart cancer in animals exposed to EMF below the ICNIRP (International Commission on Non-Ionizing Radiation Protection) guidelines followed by most countries. These results support results in human epidemiological studies on RF radiation and brain tumour risk. A large number of peer-reviewed scientific reports demonstrate harm to human health from EMFs.

    To obtain more peer-reviwed scientific research with links to research reports visit The Environmental Health Trust:
    Last edited by Barry; 04-18-2019 at 10:58 AM.
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  25. TopTop #46
    rossmen
     

    Re: 5G in Sebastopol & Graton

    I love my brain, and in my lifetime brain research has been highly varied. To call internet research a possibly bad thing is really bad, like devil talk. Just because other people don't agree with your opinion, and cite experts, is a gift. Tear down your own mental structure. I have no idea wether the latest com tech is good or bad, but I appreciate caution. If civilization is a heat engine, then cell tech is the spark, let us fry our brains together!

    Quote podfish wrote: View Post
    from your posts and others in this area (not just this specific topic, but any tech/science issue) I'm realizing that google searching can be a bad thing. ...
    Last edited by Barry; 04-19-2019 at 09:19 AM.
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