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  1. TopTop #31
    podfish's Avatar
    podfish
     

    Re: Immigrants improve Sweden.

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by spam1: View Post
    ...It seems to me there are only two choices: 1) completely open borders; 2) limited immigration with enforcement.....
    no, there are always more than two choices. The one that has been chosen in the past is to have laws, but random and arbitrary enforcement. We're cool with that regarding traffic laws. Or most laws, for that matter.
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  2. TopTop #32
    spam1's Avatar
    spam1
     

    Re: Immigrants improve Sweden.

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by Moon: View Post
    ....it's intolerable for children to be afraid to go to school lest they come home to find their parents have been "disappeared."
    It's intolerable to you, but apparently it is NOT an intolerable risk for the parents. Why are you more concerned about keeping their family together than they are?

    If I choose to ride a bike with my child in a seat behind me, without a bike helmet, I would be arrested for child endangerment; if I did it repeatedly I would have my children taken away. Isn't what these illegal immigrant parents doing even more dangerous to their children, and yet you sanction it.

    If you think the law of the land should be "any one who sets a foot in the US and manages to have a child here gets becomes an automatic permanent resident" then please be so brave as to actually state that. I'm not necessarily opposed to that view point, I just don't see how we sustain our existing safety net if that is our policy.

    Or do you propose an addendum "as long as they stay in the shadows".

    So, what IS your position on immigration?
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  4. TopTop #33
    spam1's Avatar
    spam1
     

    Re: Immigrants improve Sweden.

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by podfish: View Post
    no, there are always more than two choices. The one that has been chosen in the past is to have laws, but random and arbitrary enforcement. We're cool with that regarding traffic laws. Or most laws, for that matter.
    Indeed, I should have added a third choice: 3) some sort of restrictions, arbitrarily enforced, according to the pull and whims of the local community. But that third choice means we have abandoned rule-of-law. That way leads to Venezuela, the Philippines, and Russia.
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  5. TopTop #34
    podfish's Avatar
    podfish
     

    Re: Immigrants improve Sweden.

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by spam1: View Post
    Indeed, I should have added a third choice: 3) some sort of restrictions, arbitrarily enforced, according to the pull and whims of the local community. But that third choice means we have abandoned rule-of-law. That way leads to Venezuela, the Philippines, and Russia.
    I was being rather flippant in the first reply, but more seriously, I disagree that it's a bad way to do things. Traffic laws are the most convenient example, but I think we really approach most things that way. There's always both discretion and constraints on the ability to do perfect enforcement of laws, which somewhat balances the fact that laws are never perfect. If we cared to, we could cite everyone who breaks the speed limits ever. We don't - we limit the number of LEOs and refuse to adopt technological solutions. Admittedly, there are great injustices when discretion is used for the benefit of one part of the population over another. But that's a different question.
    But this whole thing is a bit O.T. - I think we all agree that the laws are important regardless, and those regarding immigration are way overdue for adjustment.
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  6. TopTop #35
    spam1's Avatar
    spam1
     

    Re: Immigrants improve Sweden.

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by podfish: View Post
    ...those regarding immigration are way overdue for adjustment.
    Which still begs the question: what do YOU think the immigration laws should be. Myself, I'm not sure the current law isn't the best approach. But I'm open to suggestions.
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  7. TopTop #36
    podfish's Avatar
    podfish
     

    Re: Immigrants improve Sweden.

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by spam1: View Post
    Which still begs the question: what do YOU think the immigration laws should be. Myself, I'm not sure the current law isn't the best approach. But I'm open to suggestions.
    fortunately for everybody, the things I'm responsible for creating aren't laws. Like every endeavor, you better have mastered the technical side of it before you try to create your blueprint. But I can be like the customer giving perhaps conflicting specifications. I tend to think of the goals that we need to achieve, then figure a way to balance the ones that are inconsistent with each other.
    The hardest one is to be humane. Treating people in the aggregate can hide the fact that these are individuals who only get one life each. Basic principles of kindness, generosity and fairness are easy to lose when you build a system for handling populations rather than people. Being fair is a good thing, though you always have the cop-out that 'life is unfair' when fairness conflicts with other goals. Another image - you don't want to fill the lifeboat till it sinks, but maybe it's fine to let more people in it as long as we can bail it out fast enough. Preserving comfort and privilege is nice but feels like a goal that can be abused. And effectiveness/efficiency matters too. It's good to have an immigration policy that supports the economy rather than burdening it.

    Of course I have opinions about how to balance all these things, but they're just fodder for discussion over beers. They won't have any effect on the world, so they're for entertainment value only. Sorry if anyone feels that's trivializing an important subject, but it's an accurate representation of the situation. I'd prefer a solution that doesn't disrupt the lives people have made for themselves. I'd like to use the wealth of this country to help as many people as possible, even if it means rebuilding the economy and redistributing wealth. (I think that anyone who's too certain that wealth is distributed the way it is for some good reason is absolutely fooling themselves). That's a bit beyond the subject at hand, but the fear of somehow losing wealth is motivating much of the discussion of this and many other topics.
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  9. TopTop #37
    snake
     

    Re: Immigrants improve Sweeden.



    Quote Posted in reply to the post by podfish: View Post
    ...To return to my theme: categorizing individuals by their membership in a group. Not a good thing.it's pretty defensible: where is Sharia being put into law? Where are Christian fundamentalist views being put into law? and you did it again. Why is Burbank, or for that matter the Bowling Green Massacre, relevant to my point? I'm saying that you cannot deal with individuals and individual threats as if they were characteristic of a whole group of people. That goes for Catholic priests as much as jihadis.
    You jumped on the assumption bandwagon...and that is what is too easy for many people to do.

    Bring up problems within certain groups, or factions, and some people tend to think, ah, they are 'blaming' the whole group, which I never did.

    I can't stop you from doing that, but it's not a good thing to do. Assuming things is often a major flaw in our human nature.

    And no, you do not have a good point in regards to 'Sharia Law'. We've had terrorist attacks, and people willing to abuse girls now using the 'defence' of 'religious freedom'.
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  10. TopTop #38
    Moon's Avatar
    Moon
     

    Re: Immigrants improve Sweden.

    Just what we needed--more nastiness (presumably masquerading as forthrightness.)

    Are you saying the parents missed some way to get their immigration status regularized? It's damned hard.

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by spam1: View Post
    It's intolerable to you, but apparently it is NOT an intolerable risk for the parents. Why are you more concerned about keeping their family together than they are?

    If I choose to ride a bike with my child in a seat behind me, without a bike helmet, I would be arrested for child endangerment; if I did it repeatedly I would have my children taken away. Isn't what these illegal immigrant parents doing even more dangerous to their children, and yet you sanction it. ...
    Last edited by Barry; 08-29-2017 at 10:40 AM.
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  11. TopTop #39
    podfish's Avatar
    podfish
     

    Re: Immigrants improve Sweeden.

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by snake: View Post
    You jumped on the assumption bandwagon...and that is what is too easy for many people to do.

    Bring up problems within certain groups, or factions, and some people tend to think, ah, they are 'blaming' the whole group, which I never did.

    I can't stop you from doing that, but it's not a good thing to do. Assuming things is often a major flaw in our human nature.

    And no, you do not have a good point in regards to 'Sharia Law'. We've had terrorist attacks, and people willing to abuse girls now using the 'defence' of 'religious freedom'.
    I have no idea where you come up with 'assumption' or 'blame' from what I actually wrote. I'm also a bit baffled at your transition from Sharia law to terrorist attacks. You clearly still feel that if there are any Islamic people doing things, treating it in the context of the group is reasonable. That's not the same as saying all Islamic people are terrorists, I get that. Most terrorists seem to be male, too. Why is this less compelling to you than their religious beliefs?
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  13. TopTop #40
    spam1's Avatar
    spam1
     

    Re: Immigrants improve Sweden.

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by Moon: View Post
    Just what we needed--more nastiness (presumably masquerading as forthrightness.)
    Are you saying the parents missed some way to get their immigration status regularized? It's damned hard.
    It was not intended as nastiness (and this is why one can't have a discussion; all side are ready to pounce on any one as a Hater for just asking a question they don't like); and I don't see how you can claim it is anything but the logical extension of the choice the illegal-immigrant parents made (perhaps even before they were parents) that leads to the situation which they tolerate: they are susceptible to deportation under our existing laws, and their children are not.

    Explicitly: I am saying when the parents entered the country illegally, they knowingly put their future children at risk of separation and accepted this risk on their behalf. So they are responsible for the consequences under the current law. And no one, not dems, not reps, (I'm neither) has made any attempt to change this, even when each had full control of both houses.

    This is what the law is today (unchanged from 2009, when both houses of congress and the president were democratic and could have changed it); what I asked, and you don't to answer in any post I've seen, is what do you propose the law should be; further, why doesn't our Ca delegation to congress propose it?

    Even under today's law, the family need not be broken apart. They could return, children with them, to their country of origin. They choose not to; thus they choose to put their family at risk of separation.
    Last edited by spam1; 08-29-2017 at 04:46 AM. Reason: date correction
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  14. TopTop #41
    podfish's Avatar
    podfish
     

    Re: Immigrants improve Sweden.

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by spam1: View Post
    ...Explicitly: I am saying when the parents entered the country illegally, they knowingly put their future children at risk of separation and accepted this risk on their behalf. So they are responsible for the consequences under the current law....

    Even under today's law, the family need not be broken apart. They could return, children with them, to their country of origin. They choose not to; thus they choose to put their family at risk of separation.
    of course you're objectively correct. And for some, they may have risked family separation so they could be living closer to a Best Buy. And to be less of a wise ass about it - some may have not really thought through the risks and have come for an easier life. But to me it shows how much they're willing to risk to improve the prospects for their children; the consequences of failure are so severe that they must perceive the benefit to be great. The 'choose not to' must be a Sophie's choice for many.

    Sure, I know it's not that simple or extreme - the risk-reward computation changes with the odds of being deported. When the risk is low, it's an easier decision to make.

    This is why I find the idea that this issue can be addressed by clearly written laws, strictly enforced (even retroactively) to be inadequate. It's too rational, in the Spockian sense, to be completely relied on for dealing with intimately personal and emotional decisions people make as to what's best for their families. Doesn't mean that laws and enforcement aren't hugely important, just that those are in some ways the easiest and most obvious part of a bigger solution.
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  15. TopTop #42
    rossmen
     

    Re: Immigrants improve Sweden.

    Moon you only write for yourself. I know plenty of pinkskinned people, me included who would love to be farmers if the pay was better. At this point I have a hobby farm, and while retired I aspire to be a teacher farmer at my daughters school.

    Take for example the lucrative farming strategy of wine. Most of the owners are white, and most of their workers are brown. They all work hard and the white ones started by doing what the brown ones do. If you think the majority of people accessing the social safety net are white... I know how I have benefited from racism, do you?



    Quote Posted in reply to the post by Moon: View Post
    I have to agree that, from everything I've seen and heard, the majority of US whites would go on the dole before they'd take on the really hard physical labor required in agriculture. At the same time, there is a small minority of immigrants, documented and un-, who I'd rather had stayed at home; we have enough violent criminals of our own.
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  16. TopTop #43
    podfish's Avatar
    podfish
     

    Re: Immigrants improve Sweden.

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by rossmen: View Post
    Moon you only write for yourself. I know plenty of pinkskinned people, me included who would love to be farmers if the pay was better. At this point I have a hobby farm, and while retired I aspire to be a teacher farmer at my daughters school.

    Take for example the lucrative farming strategy of wine. Most of the owners are white, and most of their workers are brown. They all work hard and the white ones started by doing what the brown ones do. If you think the majority of people accessing the social safety net are white... I know how I have benefited from racism, do you?
    there's a difference between being a hobby farmer and a picker. You're cherry-picking. (sorry). It's true that most grape-farm owners are white, but it's not true that any randomly-chosen vineyard worker has equal odds of being an owner someday. Wine-growing families tend to have the kids work in the vineyards to learn the business. It's analogous to the factory owner having his kids working the floor.

    and if you're implying most people accessing the social safety net are non-white:
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...g-class-whites
    .. and that's ignoring all the government spending that supports (majority-white) business owners and the (majority-white) middle class.
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  18. TopTop #44
    Moon's Avatar
    Moon
     

    Re: Immigrants improve Sweden.

    Quote Posted in reply to the post by rossmen: View Post
    Moon you only write for yourself. I know plenty of pinkskinned people, me included who would love to be farmers if the pay was better. At this point I have a hobby farm, and while retired I aspire to be a teacher farmer at my daughters school.

    Take for example the lucrative farming strategy of wine. Most of the owners are white, and most of their workers are brown. They all work hard and the white ones started by doing what the brown ones do. If you think the majority of people accessing the social safety net are white... I know how I have benefited from racism, do you?
    If you look at my posts, there answer to this question will be abundantly clear.
    IF the pay were better is the crucial point; it's completely possible that your circumstances have led you to a lot more whites who would be willing to face years of physically arduous labor for a pittance than I have, but all I can report on are the hundreds I've known.
    BTW, thanks for maintaining civil discourse in your post.
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  19. TopTop #45
    rossmen
     

    Re: Immigrants improve Sweden.

    The point is that the pay would be better with less immigrant labor. There are huge parts of us economy, ag and food processing, cleaning, caregiving, landscape, restaurant, construction ect. where there is a brown ceiling on wages. This means greater income equality, increased gdp, and lower consumer prices. Both dominant political parties continue current policy of open back door and resident third world work fodder.

    Personally I just don't get it. When young and I was doing physically arduous labor, sweating in the hot sun while groveling in the dirt, I would cheer myself up by thinking, at least I am getting paid for working Out! Now, when I should be hiring other people (and often do), I think, I really need this Workout! The most common new business in seebasstoepull seems to be workout Studios! Why? I'll pay you to work out for me;)


    Quote Posted in reply to the post by Moon: View Post
    If you look at my posts, there answer to this question will be abundantly clear.
    IF the pay were better is the crucial point; it's completely possible that your circumstances have led you to a lot more whites who would be willing to face years of physically arduous labor for a pittance than I have, but all I can report on are the hundreds I've known.
    BTW, thanks for maintaining civil discourse in your post.
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  21. TopTop #46
    snake
     

    Re: Immigrants improve Sweeden.



    Quote Posted in reply to the post by Moon: View Post
    Just to distinguish between Islam and certain Muslims, as one might distinguish between Christianity and certain Paulists: Not only does the Q'ran not prescribe FGM, it explicitly forbids child abuse in any form, as well as anything that would tend to interfere with the bond between husband and wife.

    Screw the Q'ran. It's been around 1,400 yrs., and a bunch of Imam fartheads around the world promote child abuse, and abusive, male dominance over women. Ph*ck em'.

    The west has increasing problems with child marriage (rape), FGM, rape of women, polygamy, etc., and it's not because of immigrant Protestants. Are wimped out western countries going to stand up for underage children, and tackle the increased rape problem, or not? I'm sick of it. I'm sick of our weak-kneed bs.

    https://www.independentsentinel.com/judge-approves-marriage-child-bride-appears-mature/
    ***

    Many Muslims state FGM is not Islamic, so that makes the defense of 'religious freedom' in this case, pretty darn ironic. Many Muslims go not only by the Q'ran, but also the Hadith/sunnah.

    According to "Islamqa", it is in the Hadith, so FGM is A OK for these Imams, and obviously certain groups of Muslims.

    "Circumcision is not an inherited custom as some people claim, rather it is prescribed in Islam and the scholars are unanimously agreed that it is prescribed. Not a single Muslim scholar – as far as we know – has said that circumcision is not prescribed.

    Their evidence is to be found in the saheeh ahaadeeth of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), which prove that it is prescribed, for example:

    The hadeeth narrated by al-Bukhaari (5889) and Muslim (257) from Abu Hurayrah (may Allaah be pleased with him), that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: "The fitrah is five things – or five things are part of the fitrah – circumcision, shaving the pubes, cutting the nails, plucking the armpit hairs, and trimming the moustache."

    This hadeeth includes circumcision of both males and females."...

    ..."With regard to the criticism of circumcision by some doctors, and their claim that it is harmful both physically and psychologically,

    This criticism of theirs is not valid. It is sufficient for us Muslims that something be proven to be from the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), then we will follow it, and we are certain that it is beneficial and not harmful. If it were harmful, Allaah and His Messenger (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) would not have prescribed it for us."...

    "Thus it is clear that female circumcision is prescribed in Islam, and that it is one of the Sunnahs of the fitrah and it has a good effect of moderating the individual’s behaviour. As for the opinions of doctors who say that female circumcision is harmful, these are individual opinions which are not derived from any agreed scientific basis, and they do not form an established scientific opinion."...

    https://islamqa.info/en/60314

    https://wikiislam.net/wiki/Qur'an,_Hadith_and_Scholars:Female_Genital_Mutilation

    *******

    As far as marriage goes, the Q'ran is fine with polygamy, and a 'little bit' of 'wife beating'.

    Nothin' like tit for tat...

    ..."c) If the husband beats a wife without respecting the limits set down by the Quran and Hadith, then she can take him to court and if ruled in favor has the right to apply the law of retaliation and beat the husband as he beat her."

    https://www.themodernreligion.com/women/dv-4-34-shafaat.html

    The 'modern religion'?.......Riiiight.

    *******

    I liked the video from the marriage therapist in Saudi Arabia on 'wife beating'. 'The Onion', or SNL couldn't have done better!

    "Alyasum Allyukum" (Allah's blessing upon you). Welcome to our show which will deal with wife beating. I am aware that this issue is a thorny one."...

    Yeah, bud...Ya think so?

    ..."The necessary Islamic conditions for beating must be met."..."Unfortunately, some wives want to live a life of equality with their husbands". This is a very grave problem."...

    Yikes, when that little lady get's out of hand, or wants some 'equality', she needs a little discipline from hubby. Well, at least 'the therapist' stated it shouldn't be a big ol' hairy stick, or a sharp object to beat her with. Just like it says in the Koooran, use a little tooth cleaning stick, or, a handkerchief will do. What a relief!

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=eAZOag43T-w
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  23. TopTop #47
    snake
     

    Re: Immigrants improve Sweden.

    In response to podcasts post above...."I have no idea where you come up with 'assumption' or 'blame' from what I actually wrote. I'm also a bit baffled at your transition from Sharia law to terrorist attacks. You clearly still feel that if there are any Islamic people doing things, treating it in the context of the group is reasonable. That's not the same as saying all Islamic people are terrorists, I get that. Most terrorists seem to be male, too. Why is this less compelling to you than their religious beliefs?"
    *******

    If you don't understand, then you can go over what you wrote, and what I wrote. I don't have the patience to repeat myself. I think I was quite clear in my postings.

    Basically, your postings made FGM, child rape, Jihadi terrorist attacks, threats to free speech, etc., no big deal, while bringing up 'Shariah law', and 'Islamophobia.' I don't have patience for such dismissive sideswipes.

    If you don't care about certain issues, fine. But please don't throw out that weak-kneed bs., and make cruel, and evil Islamist acts unimportant just because 'Sharia Law' isn't being implemented. That is pathetic.

    ..."Most terrorists seem to be male, too. Why is this less compelling to you than their religious beliefs?"

    Huh? Jihadi's commit their evil acts of terror due to their religious beliefs.
    ***

    Maybe, I got a little lucky...Unless, you want to conveniently dismiss this guy too...

    "Western politicians should stop pretending that extremism and terrorism have nothing to do with Islam. There is a clear relationship between fundamentalism, terrorism, and the basic assumptions of Islamic orthodoxy. So long as we lack consensus regarding this matter, we cannot gain victory over fundamentalist violence within Islam."

    ... "The West must stop ascribing any and all discussion of these issues to “Islamophobia.” Or do people want to accuse me — an Islamic scholar — of being an Islamophobe too?"...

    ..."Within the Islamic tradition, the state is a single, universal entity that unites all Muslims under the rule of one man who leads them in opposition to, and conflict with, the non-Muslim world."...

    https://time.com/4930742/islam-terrorism-islamophobia-violence/

    Another reminder that this is nothing new...

    "It was written in their Koran, that all nations which had not acknowledged the Prophet were sinners, whom it was the right and duty of the faithful to plunder and enslave; and that every mussulman who was slain in this warfare was sure to go to paradise. He said, also, that the man who was the first to board a vessel had one slave over and above his share"...

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Barbary_War
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