What Trump is Doing is Not OK

[Sara S]

Thomas Friedman
The Opinion Pages | Op-Ed Columnist

What Trump Is Doing Is Not O.K.

Thank God for the resignation in shame by Mike Flynn, President Trump’s national security adviser. And not just because he misled the vice president and engaged in deeply malignant behavior with Russia, but, more important, because maybe it will finally get the United States government, Congress and the news media to demand a proper answer to what is still the biggest national security question staring us in the face today: What is going on between Donald Trump and the Russians?

Sorry, Kellyanne Conway, I am not ready to just “move on.”

Every action, tweet and declaration by Trump throughout this campaign, his transition and his early presidency screams that he is compromised when it comes to the Russians.

I don’t know whether Russian oligarchs own him financially or whether Russian spies own him personally because of alleged indiscreet behavior during his trips to Moscow. But Trump’s willingness to attack allies like Australia, bluster at rivals like China, threaten enemies like Iran and North Korea and bully neighbors like Mexico — while consistently blowing kisses to Russian President Vladimir Putin — cannot be explained away by his mere desire to improve relations with Moscow to defeat the Islamic State. And the Flynn ouster gives our government another, desperately needed opportunity to demand the answers to these questions, starting with seeing the president’s tax returns.
We need to know whom Trump owes and who might own him, and we need to know it now. Save for a few patriotic Republican senators like John McCain and Lindsey Graham, the entire Republican Party is complicit in a shameful act of looking away at Trump’s inexplicable behavior toward Russia.

Continues here

[arthunter]

I find this interesting...

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7j_ZfKmcnSk

[SonomaPatientsCoop]

I find this interesting...

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7j_ZfKmcnSk

Just FYI- for the many of us in west county that are stuck with with limited data from either cellular or sattelite internet... It would be really appreciated if people gave some detail of what video links discuss/contain so we can make a decision as to whether it is worth burning up our bandwidth (and $ ) or not.

I'm never going to click a video link unless I have some real indication it is worth burning up my limited access.

[arthunter]

This is a video of former Democratic representative Dennis Kucinich accusing some of the intelligence community of purposely fanning the flames of conflict with Russia for financial gain
It is 8 minutes long

[phredo]

What a pointless article! Thomas Friedman at his most hysterical.

The only possible wrongdoing by Flynn is that he apparently didn't tell the truth to Pence. If Obama, in the days between his election and taking office, had sent someone to talk to the British government about his ideas for arms control would anyone have said that was improper? Of course not. The only reason Flynn talking to Russian counterparts is news is (1) Russia is being portrayed as a sinister opponent to the US, and (2) anything Trump or his agents do is unacceptable to people who can't get over not having Clinton for their President. (1) Russia hasn't done anything to the US to deserve our enmity except not rolling over and putting its paws up for western imperialism to control and exploit. (2) Clinton lost: get over it!

Besides the case of Flynn, Friedman is just working over the same unproved allegations that the Russians somehow interfered with the election and that Trump has some kind of dark connection to it. The only result anyone can point to of this alleged interference is the emails of the DNC and Clinton campaign showing how Sanders was cheated by them were leaked to Wikileaks and then publicized by them. No evidence of Russian "hacking" has ever been shown, and most intelligence experts (outside of the CIA who is obviously biased towards Clinton) don't use the word "hacked" because it's most likely the emails were leaked by someone in the US.

If there's more to the story than what I've said, please enlighten me. I never thought I'd see so many so-called leftists and liberals engage in anti-Russian bashing and falling in love with the CIA.

[Sara S]

What a pointless article! Thomas Friedman at his most hysterical.

...

If there's more to the story than what I've said, please enlighten me. I never thought I'd see so many so-called leftists and liberals engage in anti-Russian bashing and falling in love with the CIA.

I'm afraid you're wrong; this is from The Washington Post:


Flynn in FBI interview denied discussing sanctions with Russian ambassador
By Sari Horwitz and Adam Entous February 16 at 4:37 PM

Former national security adviser Michael Flynn denied to FBI agents in an interview last month that he had discussed U.S. sanctions against Russia with that country’s ambassador to the United States before President Trump took office, contradicting the contents of intercepted communications collected by intelligence agencies, current and former U.S. officials said.

The Jan. 24 interview potentially puts Flynn in legal jeopardy. Lying to the FBI is a felony offense. But several officials said it is unclear whether prosecutors would attempt to bring a case, in part because Flynn may parse the definition of the word “sanctions.” He also followed his denial to the FBI by saying he couldn’t recall all of the conversation, officials said.

Any decision to prosecute would ultimately lie with the Justice Department.

A spokesman for Flynn said he had no response. The FBI and the Justice Department declined to comment.

Continues here

[arthunter]

Trump's press conference on the subject ... It's one hour and twenty minutes long

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=W5FRUM-AK9k&sns=fb

But, to be honest, I'm more concerned about our democracy and the sentiments expressed in these two articles .
I'm hoping like hell that they are wrong

Is the NSA the real president of the United States?

CIA broke the law to take out its critic General Flynn

[phredo]

I'm sorry, Auntie Wacco, but I don't see a contradiction between what I wrote and the article you quoted. Was it that Flynn may have lied (which he denies, and the article says is unprovable) to the FBI as well as Pence? Seems like a quibble.

[phredo]

I liked the quote from Schumer in ArtHunter's second article so much that I'm going to reprint it below:

New Senate Minority Leader Charles Schumer (D-N.Y.) said Tuesday that President-elect Donald Trump is "being really dumb" by taking on the intelligence community and its assessments on Russia's cyber activities.

"Let me tell you, you take on the intelligence community, they have six ways from Sunday at getting back at you," Schumer told MSNBC's Rachel Maddow.
"So even for a practical, supposedly hard-nosed businessman, he's being really dumb to do this."

[podfish]

...(1) Russia is being portrayed as a sinister opponent to the US,.... (1) Russia hasn't done anything to the US to deserve our enmity except not rolling over and putting its paws up for western imperialism to control and exploit.....
If there's more to the story than what I've said, please enlighten me. I never thought I'd see so many so-called leftists and liberals engage in anti-Russian bashing and falling in love with the CIA.

I agree that it's pretty weird for the intelligence and military institutions to be the best hope for the left regarding preservation of their goals. But weird doesn't mean impossible.

and hell yes Russia deserves enmity. What does "to us" have to do with anything? Ukraine, Crimea, and the lack of restraint in Syria are kind of bad acts. Even if the pro-west, anti-russia press is warping the coverage, I'm pretty sure there's some pretty inhumane behavior. The fleeing refugees hint at that. And yeah, even Trump pointed out that the US has done some bad things too. That's a different issue and doesn't excuse Russian behavior. I don't have any reason to find it implausible that they're messing with US politics and our economy. And yeah, we did that first to lots of people. But if your friends think it's ok to jump off the roof, are you going to too?? (that's the closest to apropos here that I can remember my mother saying. The other stuff was more like "eat your peas")

[phredo]

Umm, I disagree that Russia has acted badly in Ukraine, Crimea, or Syria. As far as Ukraine and Crimea go, there are many people much more expert than I who feel this way. Perhaps Stephen Cohen, a Russia scholar, would be someone you could read on the subject. But in short: the US set up a coup in Ukraine to take it out of the Russian orbit, with the especial prize of Crimea, Russia's only warm water naval base. The Russian speaking residents of western Ukraine and Crimea didn't wish to go along with the coup, and Russia supported them, taking back Crimea. A referendum later showed something like 97% of the Crimeans agreed.

In Syria, Russia is supporting the government, and is probably the only reason why that government has not fallen to ISIS, since the US seemed more to be supporting ISIS than fighting it. Most Syrians support their government because it is secular and supports a multi religious society, which the "rebels" certainly do not. The Russians also have a strong interest in seeing a non-fanatic ruled Syria, since their country is nearby and has a large Muslim population. Historically, many of the groups fighting against the Syrian government have fought against Russia, and with a certain amount of support from the US. Obviously, there's a lot we could discuss about Ukraine and Syria, and I'm trying to give a short reply, but I'd be glad to discuss it more, if you like.

It's not especially weird that you might have positive feelings towards the CIA and its ilk, given that they have spent decades perfecting their penetration of our society. I didn't vote for Trump, but one of the things that give me hope about his having won are that he might actually be able to successfully fight the CIA, something that I don't believe Stein (who I voted for) or Sanders (who I would have liked to vote for) would have at all be able to do. Kennedy was the last President to oppose the CIA and look where that got him.

And your mother was right: you should eat your peas. And I should learn to "stand up straight."

...and hell yes Russia deserves enmity. ...

[podfish]

Umm, I disagree that Russia has acted badly in Ukraine, Crimea, or Syria. ...

I'm familiar with that reading of the Ukraine/Russian relationship but I don't think it's likely to be anything more than a defensible point of view, any more than the assertion that lowering taxes on the rich will boost the economy. In both cases it seems a very self serving argument. The few Ukrainians I've met don't seem to be so positive about Russian influence. Sure the US government prefers this bunch. I'd be really surprised if they hadn't put a thumb on the scale there. And I really don't buy the narrative that Assad is worth protecting especially with the inhumane tactics they seem to be using. Sure there's a parallel to Hussein but there's a big difference between initiating an invasion and supporting a revolution. Yeah I know the history of the CIA in that regard.

Also I think people are too quick to dismiss other points of view as shaped by some kind of marketing or propaganda. It fails to give credit to those who see the same facts and reach different conclusions based on a different perspective. I tend to disbelieve in what sounds to me to be over simplified views of a complex organization and its actions. They aren't bond villians

[arthunter]

I think that I'm about to throw up .. Please somebody dispute this information
https://m.youtube.com/watch?sns=fb&v=6DoPi0eEw0Y

This is a 7 minute video tying Obama to the anti Trump movement. It's also about recent peodophile arrests and connections to the Obama administration and also to Bohemian Grove. As reported by ABC news there were 454 peodophile arrests in CA last week.

[phredo]

An article by Robert Parry, of Consortium News
The Did-You-Talk-to-Russians Witch Hunt

I'm providing two links to it, the first from OpEdNews, because I like this site and want to promote it, and the second from the original source. With OpEdNews, I found that getting their daily email gives me a better menu of topics than just going to the site itself, much like with Wacco.


https://www.opednews.com/articles/1/...70218-270.html

https://consortiumnews.com/2017/02/1...ns-witch-hunt/

As with many sites, the comments following the article are often worth reading.

[Karl Frederick]

The latest article I've seen on the subject of the "Deep State" -- and the relationship our intelligence services have with the presidency.

Here's a quote from the article:
"But the open split between Trump and the intelligence community has made clear that the security managers have an agenda of their own, and pursue it with very few checks. This was concealed from the public during the Obama administration because Obama largely embraced their agenda as his own and when they screwed up, he took responsibility, as had other presidents. Trump is different."

Continued here: https://www.alternet.org/american-de...fronting-abyss

This is a video of former Democratic representative Dennis Kucinich accusing some of the intelligence community of purposely fanning the flames of conflict with Russia for financial gain
It is 8 minutes long

[phredo]

Jim Kunstler is always a good read. Here's his today's offering (he writes essays on Mondays and Fridays):

“That War You Ordered….”


https://kunstler.com/clusterfuck-nat...r-you-ordered/

[phredo]

I watched the video. Everyone has a limit as to just how far to go "down the rabbit hole", and I guess the idea that there is a large network in high places of pedophiles is a little too much for me, especially presented in a short video that seems long on allegations but (necessarily because of its shortness) short on evidence. On the other hand, I would be interested in something highly factual on the subject, including "pizzagate", if you have something to recommend. But I repeat, "highly factual"!

I think that I'm about to throw up .. Please somebody dispute this information
https://m.youtube.com/watch?sns=fb&v=6DoPi0eEw0Y

This is a 7 minute video tying Obama to the anti Trump movement. It's also about recent peodophile arrests and connections to the Obama administration and also to Bohemian Grove. As reported by ABC news there were 454 peodophile arrests in CA last week.

[wisewomn]

I agree, Phredo, particularly when the word "satanic" is used. It always sets my BS antennae vibrating. Anyway, re pizzagate, you might be interested in this bit of debunking.

Arthunter, I don't intend to be critical, but for the sake of your own mental health, you might want to consider more walks in the fresh air and less time on sites like SGT.com. Just sayin'.

I watched the video. Everyone has a limit as to just how far to go "down the rabbit hole", ...

[arthunter]

Let me explain something ... I'm a human rights advocate and I don't just talk about human rights when the subject is safe and pretty... and I don't turn my back on people in trouble because my research leads me to ugly realities ... That attitude leads to the kind of death and destruction that we've seen in Nazi Germany or Gaza .
..
Recently, 474 peodophiles were arrested in California. That gets my attention. Look it up, especially if you have children.

Another thing that gets my attention is Michael Aquino who is a self proclaimed Satanist, in the military, and living in San Francisco. He even went on Oprah to brag about it. BTW, in his paper "Mind Wars" he advocated for the use of psychotronic weapons and mind control... nice guy ..

So this totally distasteful crap exists, and people are suffering ...you can look away and pretend it's not happening but the victims can't and only public awareness will change it.

Phredo, there is no proof about pizzagate, only suspicion, but it's a strong suspicion ... It was only covered by one mainstream news reporter and this is that report...

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hnLqQb...ature=youtu.be

Unfortunately, there are indeed some peodophiles being arrested with ties to the white House .. I know, ... it's ugly, and most people don't want to know so I'll only post links if requested.

Lastly, as a 15 year volunteer at Home Hospice and the founder of Sonoma County Stray Pet Network, I give a dam ... And my mental health would suffer far worse if I turned my back on this garbage, .... But, as always, follow your own path ...

[phredo]

Well, thanks. The Pizzagate video was interesting. I did look up the "474 pedophiles" and read several accounts. It wasn't clear to me that the arrested were part of a "ring" or some such. But I guess it's all a subject for another thread than this one.

Let me explain something ...

[arthunter]

Yes, let's get back to the subject. Judge Napolitano gives his opinion...

https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2017...-to-roost.html

[podfish]

Yes, let's get back to the subject. Judge Napolitano gives his opinion...

Fox News: Andrew Napolitano: The chickens have come home to roost

to selectively quote from it:

Trump’s former national security adviser, retired Lt. Gen. Michael Flynn, himself a former military spy, spoke to the Russian ambassador to the United States in December via telephone in Trump Tower. It was a benign conversation. He knew it was being monitored, as he is a former monitor of such communications. But he mistakenly thought that those who were monitoring him were patriots as he is. They were not....

ok, giveaways here. "he mistakenly thought.. [they] were patriots as he is". So, the bias is revealed. Not that there's anything wrong with the bias- this is an opinion piece, intending to be persuasive not to reveal 'truth'.

The assertion that he knew he was being monitored is a stretch, too. If so, why deny the conversation? Was he trying to fool the rest of the administration, or are they all lying for some obscure reason? Occam says to believe he's a bit of an idiot and that the administration is slow on the uptake. Any other explanation gets convoluted fast.

And better, all the speculations "Why?" and his own made-up answers. Perhaps it was the Rothschilds. Perhaps it was Hillary Clinton. Perhaps it was the Illuminati. Perhaps it was grizzly bears, mad at DeVos.

This guy's interesting but he's an entertainer, now that he's a retired judge.

[phredo]

Podfish, I haven't watched the video yet, but I'm going to respond to your comments on what you quoted from it.

First, I guess I don't know just what the nature of the "lie" Flynn told; that is, if he did lie or omit or perhaps neither, or if Pence lied, or what. Is there a transcript of what Flynn said, or did he contradict himself about what he said, or what? Perhaps you could give me a link.

Second, I thought Napolitano's speculations as to why an intelligence service, if that's who it was, leaked the information covered the possibilities rather well. Probably the third one, "Perhaps because they believe that their judgment of the foreign dangers America faces is superior to the president’s", is the one most people who support the leak, Flynn's resignation, etc., would state as their "why". Do you have a different speculation, or have no opinion? As for me, I'm going for reason's 1 and 4.

Now I'll go watch the video.

I watched it. I guess the only thing I'd add to the above is that I don't see Napolitano as an "entertainer" but rather an analyst who is strong on civil liberties. In this case he was emphasizing that we should have the right not to be gratuitously spied upon, especially the President, and also not to have the information released to the public, especially in a selective fashion. I know it seems a bit strange to have Fox News be the agency that presents Dennis Kucinich and a civil libertarian while the "left of center" news outlets are reinventing McCarthyism, but that's how it is now.

[arthunter]

Judge Napolitano an entertainer? ... Well that's interesting considering that he was fired from Fox for the following speech ... I urge everyone to watch this .. it's 5 minutes long and it's about losing our Constitution, you know, the law of the land ...
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VoZzAdNI9_4

[phredo]

Here's Glenn Greenwald on the subject, 'Empowering the "Deep State" to Undermine Trump is Prescription for Destroying Democracy':

https://www.democracynow.org/2017/2/..._deep_state_to

[podfish]

.. I guess I don't know just what the nature of the "lie" Flynn told; that is, if he did lie or omit or perhaps neither, or if Pence lied, or what.
...
Second, I thought Napolitano's speculations as to why an intelligence service, if that's who it was, leaked the information covered the possibilities rather well. ... Do you have a different speculation, or have no opinion? .

I have an opinion. I'm critical of Napolitano as authoritative, though. His arguments have some big holes, and I attempted to show some reasons to take his ideas with lots of chunks of salt.

As to the "lie" - I don't mention one specifically, but I presume you mean the situation that got Flynn fired. Either he lied to his partners in crime, or they're lying about why he no longer is (formally, anyway) part of that group. So Napolitano needs to accept that either Flynn or the rest of the administration (I'd guess Flynn in this case) isn't as noble of action as he implies.
Napolitano's speculation "covers the possibilities" only if you accept the premise of Flynn as heroic patriot, and even if you do it's a selective list. It doesn't cover any possibility that there were more benign motivations - say, they believe the public should know about the administration's dangerous activities.
You don't have to assume any particularly noble motives on their part, and certainly you don't need to whitewash the intelligence agencies' history, to also be skeptical of Napolitano's reading of recent events.

Just like the republican's dog-whistle messaging, I hear a tune in this thread about a powerful conspiracy that's running things behind the scenes. I don't think you need to believe in such an entity, or bring one into an analysis of what's going on. Normal bureaucratic infighting, clashing political goals, and honest fear of damage that some of these players are doing to the country and the world are sufficient explanation. Thus Occam...

[podfish]

Judge Napolitano an entertainer? ... Well that's interesting considering that he was fired from Fox for the following speech ...

Fox is what passes for entertainment to a lot of people these days. I don't get it myself.

[phredo]

I have an opinion. I'm critical of Napolitano as authoritative, though. His arguments have some big holes, and I attempted to show some reasons to take his ideas with lots of chunks of salt...

• "His arguments have some big holes" Tell me more.
• "...they believe the public should know about the administration's dangerous activities" = "...they believe that their judgment of the foreign dangers America faces is superior to the president’s" No?
• "...dangerous activities" Which were what?
• "...a powerful conspiracy that's running things behind the scenes" For sure! Let's look at the role in the U.S. played by the CIA, for example. Carl Bernstein, in a 1977 article ( https://www.carlbernstein.com/magazi..._and_media.php ), wrote that "more than 400 American journalists who in the past twenty‑five years have secretly carried out assignments for the Central Intelligence Agency, according to documents on file at CIA headquarters." The article gives a detailed account. Surely, in the 40 years since then, the CIA's methods have vastly increased and become more sophisticated. The founder of Salon magazine, David Talbot's book "The Devil's Chessboard: Allen Dulles, the CIA, and the Rise of America's Secret Government" shows in great detail how the CIA worked successfully to subvert the official government's efforts at detente with the Soviet Union under Eisenhower, to set up the Bay of Pigs invasion and the missile crisis to lead to war with the Soviet Union, and planned and effected the execution of JFK because they thought he was too soft on the Soviet Union

Of course it's not just the CIA. The whole "military industrial media complex" constitutes the Deep State. Some of it operates secretly while much of it is apparent. I agree with you that much of the opposition to Trump and his policies comes from ordinary people such as you and I, but one should not underestimate the power of such groups. In the present case we know, because they announced it, that the intelligence agencies, which supported Clinton in her campaign and which support the demonization of Russia, "outed" Flynn's talks.

[podfish]

....

• "...they believe the public should know about the administration's dangerous activities" = "...they believe that their judgment of the foreign dangers America faces is superior to the president’s" No?....

• ok, horseshoes & hand grenades. If you read him broadly, it's close enough. I think one statement makes it all about them, the other about informing the public, making it about us.

sure, there's a deep state. It's a very broad term that means non-elected, long-term employees or others with relationships to government operations. Kind of like mailmen. I stick with my critique that it's veering into unnecessary conspiracy theories implying Bilderberger-like activities. I should re-watch the Matrix and make my references more current....

[phredo]

Check out https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_s..._United_States . I don't think you'll find mention of "non-elected, long-term employees" or "mailmen". Perhaps some media might define Deep State that way, but I suggest that represents an effort to co-opt and trivialize the term, which is normally used the way I stated it. You can watch The Matrix--I prefer the sources I gave.

...It's a very broad term that means non-elected, long-term employees or others with relationships to government operations. Kind of like mailmen.....