PD: Graton Group [has finally!] filed suit 3/22/10 to STOP SIREN! YEA!!

Graton group seeks to silence siren

By BOB NORBERG
THE PRESS DEMOCRAT

Published: Thursday, April 1, 2010 at 4:03 a.m.
Last Modified: Thursday, April 1, 2010 at 4:03 a.m.

For decades, Graton's fire department has relied on a World War II-era siren to summon volunteers to fires and medical emergencies, as well as marking noontime every day and the beginning of its weekly training exercises.

"It's the most reliable way of alerting volunteers. It is the most dependable," said Bill Bullard, who is deputy chief of the all-volunteer department.

Irritated neighbors, however, contend that the Civil Defense siren is nothing more than nostalgia and easily replaced by pagers and text-messaging.

"We believe the siren is simply technologically unnecessary," said Danelle Jacobs, a Graton resident for 13 years whose house is within 2 miles of the station. "We are used to it, but I certainly hear it. This is more of a tradition issue and not a public-safety issue."

Jacobs is one of several members of Citizens for a Better Community that filed suit March 22 in Sonoma County Superior Court for an injunction to stop the fire department from moving the siren to a new firehouse.

"We are just saying it is not necessary anymore and it is time to stop," said Jacobs.

The siren is at the site of the fire station in what locals affectionately call downtown Graton. But the department hopes to break ground this summer about a mile away on a $4 million firehouse at Highway 116 and Green Valley Road, Bullard said. The department, which relies on property taxes to fund its $600,000 annual budget, is receiving a 30-year loan from the U.S. Department of Agriculture for the facility.

Graton is one of a few rural fire departments in Sonoma County that still use sirens.

The county's central dispatch center remotely operates the siren at the same time it sends messages to the volunteers' pagers.

Bullard said the siren is necessary to reliably notify volunteers in the hilly West County area where cell phone reception is spotty and pagers do not always go off.

"Pagers are consistently inconsistent," Bullard said. "Pagers work, but not 100 percent. "When you are talking about an emergency call, if someone is not breathing or their house is on fire, it is not enough."

Nearly all Sonoma County fire departments discontinued sirens years ago, relying on pagers, phone texting and even fax machines.

New digital pagers and rebroadcasters, repeaters and microwaves can reach all but the most remote areas, said Ken Reese, the Sonoma County dispatch communications manager.

"As a whole it is very reliable," Reese said. "It has been my experience that it is not very often we get phone calls that say our pagers are not going off. If it does, a lot of times it is human error."

Forestville Fire Department stopped using the siren at night 10 years ago, when it began having volunteers sleep in the station, and discontinued sounding the siren completely three years ago.

"This works for Forestville; I cannot speak for Graton," Forestville Fire Chief Dan Northern said.

Sonoma County Fire Chief Mark Aston said he believes sirens are outdated.

"Technology has evolved where we have high reliability with pagers, and it has diminished the value of the siren," Aston said.

"In Graton, it is a community choice issue . . . the siren may have a value that I am not aware of."

You can reach Staff Writer Bob Norberg at 521-5206 or [email protected].

The terrain outside of Graton is a lot different than Forestville. I lived between Graton and Occidental and cell/text service was very sketchy. I could hear the siren and it never really bothered me at all. Just a part of being in a "rural"area. I don't know if Graton has staff 24 hrs at the station but if they don't, I feel the siren is a must in case of an emergency.

The article states that Graton is in the process of building a new station. You people just can't wait till it is done? What is the hurry? All that will happen is Graton will have to use funds for defense of the lawsuit, and maybe some of the funds will come from the construction money. Thus, possibly delaying construction.

It kind of reminds me of when I worked for a resort in Bodega Bay. We had guests actually call us and ask if we could turn the foghorn off!!! They couldn't sleep. A couple of times they actually left to Santa Rosa when we said we needed the foghorn...

That might be the solution for Graton too!!!! :thumbsup:

Seems to me the Graton group has MORE than endured the decades-long disruptions to quiet enjoyment of their homes.

The injunction is a necessary step to halt further auditory intrusions as the new fire station project proceeds. Perhaps the fire station planners could have voluntarily agreed to snuff the siren, but failed to do so.

Tell me, what reasonable explanation is there for sounding the siren at exactly 12 midnight on new year's eve?

In 1969 NASA managed to transmit video from the surface of the MOON. This is 2010.

Our technicians should be able to come up with reliable pagers/cell phones; and there are satellite phones too.

Regarding midnite new years eve... Happy New Year!!! Fireworks, celebration, people enjoying the new year... Just my take on it. Some may not enjoy the noise but some do.

I don't know about satellite phone or their cost. Pager and cell phones rely on line of sight generally. I don't think the residents in the area want more towers amongst the redwoods.

I was just wondering. Has a poll been taken of ALL the residents in town and the surrounding area served by the fire district? I was just wondering what the consensus of the community as a WHOLE might be?

Let me know... I am interested...

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Posted in reply to the post by 2Bwacco:

Seems to me the Graton group has MORE than endured the decades-long disruptions to quiet enjoyment of their homes.

The injunction is a necessary step to halt further auditory intrusions as the new fire station project proceeds. Perhaps the fire station planners could have voluntarily agreed to snuff the siren, but failed to do so.

Tell me, what reasonable explanation is there for sounding the siren at exactly 12 midnight on new year's eve?

In 1969 NASA managed to transmit video from the surface of the MOON. This is 2010.

Our technicians should be able to come up with reliable pagers/cell phones; and there are satellite phones too.

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I posted my own thoughts on the siren a while ago. It's an issue that can't go away because some people are infuriated every time they hear it. I'm not furious; I'm grateful it only sounds four times now for each alarm rather than the incredible (I don't remember how many) number of times it used to.

But of course the claim that pagers are unreliable is untenable. If nearly the entire rest of the county can rely on them, surely so can Graton.

But what I don't see in the Press-Democrat story is that a suit has been filed over the matter. Can someone fill in the gap?

Well I agree with you on all points but the pagers. I lived on Graton Rd. fairy close to the old commune site (Morningstar) and I had no cell or pager service. The only internet still available is dial-up and no cable tv access. (Which personally I don't mind). So to say if the rest of the county can rely on pagers, so can Graton doesn't make a whole lot of sense. I personally have been in areas on the coast, near the russian river, up skaggs springs road and even Bodega Hwy where service doesn't even exist.

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Posted in reply to the post by n4rky:

I posted my own thoughts on the siren a while ago. It's an issue that can't go away because some people are infuriated every time they hear it. I'm not furious; I'm grateful it only sounds four times now for each alarm rather than the incredible (I don't remember how many) number of times it used to.

But of course the claim that pagers are unreliable is untenable. If nearly the entire rest of the county can rely on them, surely so can Graton.

But what I don't see in the Press-Democrat story is that a suit has been filed over the matter. Can someone fill in the gap?

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In the interests of the golden rule, could folks remember that all people living in this area are not 18-28 years of age, hence are not wide awake at midnight?

Not saying I was inordinately disturbed by the sounding of the siren; it simply did not fulfill its stated purpose: summoning volunteers to an emergency!

Demonstrating a cavalier attitude, "we're awake, so should you be too!"

There are plenty of folks in this area that do not run out every New Year's eve and fire up firecrackers. There are better things to do with one's cash than light it on fire.

I think the siren is a stealth device to depress real estate values. Folks around Graton who purchased land at depressed prices (due to the presence of the siren -- I mean seriously, who would have purchased a home next door to the siren? really?) will now experience growing land values due to the relocation or cessation of the siren.

Folks who live next door to where the new station is to be built will experience similar drop in property values if the siren is implemented. Put yourselves in their shoes?

Press Democrat story: "...Jacobs is one of several members of Citizens for a Better Community that filed suit March 22 in Sonoma County Superior Court for an injunction to stop the fire department from moving the siren to a new firehouse."

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Posted in reply to the post by n4rky:

I posted my own thoughts on the siren a while ago. It's an issue that can't go away because some people are infuriated every time they hear it. I'm not furious; I'm grateful it only sounds four times now for each alarm rather than the incredible (I don't remember how many) number of times it used to.

But of course the claim that pagers are unreliable is untenable. If nearly the entire rest of the county can rely on them, surely so can Graton.

But what I don't see in the Press-Democrat story is that a suit has been filed over the matter. Can someone fill in the gap?

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The impact of the siren seem to vary greatly for everyone. I've lived in Graton for only 3 months though I live right across the street from the Fire House. I was concerned at first when I moved here and everyone told me what to expect from the siren. It turns out to not bother me at all and it does not go off at night very often.

When it does go off, I take a moment to hold the volunteers and the people needing their help in my thoughts and pray for a safe outcome. For me, it's a benevolent sound and reminds me that in a trying world, there are many people doing good work.

I don't get cell service at my house; again only yards away from the station. It does sound like there is an issue to be resolved though I am not sure we can depend on pagers and cell phones.

I'm more concerned about the park proposal for the site and it's impact on my life. Parking and hanging out activity is more an issue for me in Graton. I love my new home but am definitley worried about what is to come.
Rosalie

My name is Bob Rozett, I have been a volunteer firefighter in the West County, starting in 1980, I have worked at 3 fire districts during those 30 years. All have had sirens. I have worked with Freestone, Occidental and Graton, presently with Occidental.

To this day (actually using the system) I find pagers about 85% responsive. That means for every 10 pages my pager should go off, it actually goes off 8 or 9 times. I live and work in the hills out here, both as a contractor and firefighter. I've been in bed at night and not had the pager open up, but then there's the siren giving me a clue I've work to do. There are several canyons that our truck radios have problems transmitting and receiving in, and we must then relay to another truck to communicate with dispatch. The repeaters don't work everywhere, plain and simple.

During these years of response to the public's emergencies, when the page has come in, I have been involved in most every conceivable thing one does in their life. I have been driving tractors, running skilsaws, under houses, mixing epoxy, and I leave the rest to your imagination. While otherwise occupied, especially in the first few instances I mentioned, often I would not have known there was a call except for the wailing of the horn. I could not hear the pager on my hip due to the noise and/or the vibration of the machine I was operating. Another note about the siren is often I've heard from people whose emergency we have just responded to, was that when they heard that wail, they knew that help was coming and it lessened their stress.

I would also like to point out that the Forestville, Russian River, Bodega Bay, and Monte Rio Fire Departments all have duty personnel (paid people waiting at the station 24/7) and hence have no need of rousting the troops from their lives to respond to a call.. My pager is in good shape, though it has a rough life. I know how to operate it after 30 years, so to me, Mr. Reese sounds like a flatlander telling us simple hill folk we don't know what we are doing.

Get out in the hills you'll find out we're fairly well trained, know, and love our jobs. However we lose power, and get more fluctuations in quantity of volts (brown outs from trees) then does Santa Rosa. We have more topography. We are here doing the work, and know what actually works, and what doesn't. What doesn't work is people who have no clue about our jobs telling us how to do it from a simple and uninformed perspective. Ask those that do it if you want to know. If it was your emergency, would you be willing to put up with a 15 to 20% chance that some of the people won't be coming to help?

We seem to have a great deal of fear of radio frequencies out here in the West County. Maybe the radio waves are put off by that, resisting the task of communicating with us when we need it, not going where they aren't wanted. The point is, the system doesn't work as well as I would like to see it work before removing the sirens, which by the way produce sound waves, but no radio frequencies.

I am sure I have support both in and out of the firefighting community, truth be told, I'll bet we outnumber the folks against the siren. So if you folks in Graton really want to get rid of that siren, you better be ready to cough up more $ for fire service, because it'll need to be a staffed station for 100% response. And considering that Graton Fire ( a volunteer station) runs 450+ calls a year, it might not be a bad idea.

Firstly: paragraphs
Secondly: land line

I've been on a diesel tractor mowing grass, and I can't hear anything else, not even the siren.

Even though you have volunteered to assist, it seems as though you are really, kind of, too busy. You have a lot going on.

If someone is unconscious, bleeding, they are not going to be comforted by the siren sounding. So many people make this argument it is starting to sound like a talking point.

As you say, even with the siren in place, they are still using pagers; using both together. By discontinuing the use of the siren the Fire District would save money.

The phasing-out of the old and phasing-in of the new would seem complete! Time to phase out the OLD SIREN FOR GOOD.

A handy, enterprising homeowner could install their own antenna for receiving cell service/pagers and directing the signal to your hand-held device. I installed my own television antenna and pulled in TV stations from San Jose to Sacramento. Point is the technology is there, just has to be tweaked a little, don't you think? The Sheriff's Dept. seems to be able to communicate all around the hills without relying on a siren from county central in Santa Rosa.

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Posted in reply to the post by tezor:

"...I have been a volunteer firefighter in the West County..."

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Posted in reply to the post by tezor:

To this day (actually using the system) I find pagers about 85% responsive. That means for every 10 pages my pager should go off, it actually goes off 8 or 9 times.

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You also say your pager is thirty years old. I hate to break this to you, because obviously you are attached to it, but technology has improved considerably in the last thirty years.

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During these years of response to the public's emergencies, when the page has come in, I have been involved in most every conceivable thing one does in their life. I have been driving tractors, running skilsaws, under houses, mixing epoxy, and I leave the rest to your imagination. While otherwise occupied, especially in the first few instances I mentioned, often I would not have known there was a call except for the wailing of the horn. I could not hear the pager on my hip due to the noise and/or the vibration of the machine I was operating. Another note about the siren is often I've heard from people whose emergency we have just responded to, was that when they heard that wail, they knew that help was coming and it lessened their stress.

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I spoke with my mother about this. She has lived in Graton for at least twenty years. She points out the parents with colicky babies will not appreciate the siren, that anyone who has sleep difficulties will not appreciate the siren, that anyone who is in poor health will not appreciate the siren.

It seems we have a clash of lifestyles. You want to be able to go on with your noisy life with the siren as a backup system of notification for an old, unreliable pager while other people suffer greatly because of the siren.

I acknowledge your problem, but you are not acknowledging the problems of others. And when it comes to the sorts of people my mother mentions, the generosity of your volunteer service is belied by the increase in their suffering.

I think the siren is not the correct solution. I don't know what is. [Dammit, Jim!, ...-Barry] I'm a social scientist not a radio engineer. I think you need to consider seriously that the vast majority of the county is able to get by without a siren and to seriously--because very little of Sonoma County is flat--explain why Graton is so very much different.

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Posted in reply to the post by 2Bwacco:

A handy, enterprising homeowner could install their own antenna for receiving cell service/pagers and directing the signal to your hand-held device. I installed my own television antenna and pulled in TV stations from San Jose to Sacramento. Point is the technology is there, just has to be tweaked a little, don't you think? The Sheriff's Dept. seems to be able to communicate all around the hills without relying on a siren from county central in Santa Rosa.

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You have to be in a location where you get enough signal service in the first place in order to these antenna/amplifiers to boost the signal. Anywhere in the West County from just over the first hill west of Graton through Occidental and out to the coast, try to get AT&T service. I promise, you can't. If you can't get signal, you can't amplify signal. You might be lucky enough to live in a place where the television signals come in nicely (say on the top of a large hill?), but it's rather naive to believe that technology goes everywhere.

As for Satphones, not sure that those are very cost effective with the hundreds of dollars a month access fees and $$ per minute usage charges.

Sorry you can't hear well, but read this, I can, and I have heard the siren over several types of noise, and then responded to the call.

I don't think you should be judging, or have enough knowledge about whether I have enough time in my life. Yes it is full, especially when you add the grandkids. But I made the decision to serve my community, and it serves me, as I serve the community.

I have talked to MANY people after 30 years of doing this. Your flippant assumption is wrong, so many of the injured, from falls from a ladder to vehicle accidents, have stated they were glad to hear that horn wail, cause they knew help was coming... it IS a talking point, and one that's relevant.

I have always believed that whatever money we spent on equipment to do our job was worth while, but the siren runs on 3 phase power (very cheap) and other than the modifications done to the Graton siren to divert directed sound from just uphill of the station, there haven't been many costs associated with blowing the horn. So in the case of the sire, we get a lot of bang for the buck.

The system of antennas and such aren't a fix in lots of locations, as someone stated you have to have a signal to amplify it. And have you ever talked to the Deputies and CHP that work out here? Ask them about holes in the areas they work in where reception is thin to spotty to non-existent.

By the by, for the person who thought my pager was 30 year old, not so. I have an 7 year old repeating pager with 2 channels in it. Not old school technology by any means, just doesn't pick up the signal some times. Not just me, but the other firefighters I work with all complain about pagers that don't open. Often when I've just heard the siren, and manually opened my pager to hear the call, a twist of my hips can give me improved reception. It may have actually have allowed the pager to open had I been in that position when the initial page came out.

As I understand, this suit is being pressed by 7 people, some of which are couples, so as I said, I believe we out number them. I also had this conversation with others who disagreed with me, I am sorry about those people who can't roll over and go back to sleep, the unhappy baby and parent(I do know about these), and those of you just like to complain when the siren goes off. However emergency trumps comfort, and community trumps an individuals selfishness.

You who disagree with me may not like it, but it's not all about you, nor is it all about me and my wishes. It's a community, and we've worked well together for years. We live in the country, with all it's glory. Agriculture's smell, noise, and dust, are part of the deal. I believe that goes for the siren. Neighbors help neighbors, the siren is an extension of that, a call to need if you will.

Leave it alone, it isn't going away without a fight, and if it's in court, thanks for taking $ from our VOLUTEER FIRE DEPARTMENT and wasting it on responding to your (my opinion) selfish wants. There are people all over who for their own interests, cause many districts to spend much needed $ on legal fees that should be used for training and equipment for response... If you aren't ashamed of yourself, you should be.

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Posted in reply to the post by tezor:

By the by, for the person who thought my pager was 30 year old, not so. I have an 7 year old repeating pager with 2 channels in it. Not old school technology by any means, just doesn't pick up the signal some times.

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Read your own words. You made the claim. I just picked up on it.

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As I understand, this suit is being pressed by 7 people, some of which are couples, so as I said, I believe we out number them. I also had this conversation with others who disagreed with me, I am sorry about those people who can't roll over and go back to sleep, the unhappy baby and parent(I do know about these), and those of you just like to complain when the siren goes off. However emergency trumps comfort, and community trumps an individuals selfishness.
Leave it alone, it isn't going away without a fight, and if it's in court, thanks for taking $ from our VOLUTEER FIRE DEPARTMENT and wasting it on responding to your (my opinion) selfish wants. There are people all over who for their own interests, cause many districts to spend much needed $ on legal fees that should be used for training and equipment for response... If you aren't ashamed of yourself, you should be.

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Congratulations. You have just shown who is really being selfish here. Your response is entirely arrogant. I don't know why you're a volunteer firefighter, but it is clearly not out of compassion for your neighbors.

And you have done this without substantively answering even your colleagues in neighboring fire departments who say that pagers work just fine for them, without explaining how it is that the terrain in Graton is so especially difficult that pagers will not work.

As you have now made amply clear, you just like to make noise. You're probably disappointed that the siren only sounds four times now, not ten as my mother informs me it used to. You're behaving like you're three years old.

And you know what? I don't think I want someone with the mentality of a three-year old responding to my emergency.

Tezor,
Some may disagree with you but I don't. I feel public welfare is more important than a little discomfort when the siren sounds. Why some can't just wait for the new station to be completed is beyond me. Don't back off your views.... You have more experience with the subject of this thread. Some just always turn the threads into a personal attack and belittling to try to flaunt their perceived intelligence. Thank-you for being a volunteer firefighter, your comments and integrity. At least you walk your talk...:thumbsup:

I am astounded at this response.

How anyone could have read what Tezor wrote and drew these conclusions is mind-blowing!! How can anyone who volunteers their time (and potential life) to help others be considered selfish? Does not compute.

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Posted in reply to the post by n4rky:

Congratulations. You have just shown who is really being selfish here. Your response is entirely arrogant. I don't know why you're a volunteer firefighter, but it is clearly not out of compassion for your neighbors.

And you have done this without substantively answering even your colleagues in neighboring fire departments who say that pagers work just fine for them, without explaining how it is that the terrain in Graton is so especially difficult that pagers will not work.

As you have now made amply clear, you just like to make noise. You're probably disappointed that the siren only sounds four times now, not ten as my mother informs me it used to. You're behaving like you're three years old.

And you know what? I don't think I want someone with the mentality of a three-year old responding to my emergency.

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Posted in reply to the post by Mrs. Wacco:

I am astounded at this response.

How anyone could have read what Tezor wrote and drew these conclusions is mind-blowing!! How can anyone who volunteers their time (and potential life) to help others be considered selfish? Does not compute.

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Apparently you and Tezor both enjoy excellent health. So do I.

If you did not, you might have a different perspective. If you were a parent with a colicky baby exhausted from lack of sleep, you might have a different perspective.

And Tezor, apart from referring to geographic conditions which do not exist in Graton, has refused to explain why the geography in Graton is so difficult as to demand a siren that even the Forestville fire chief has been quoted as saying he doesn't understand the need for.

The fact is that the claimed need for this siren does not withstand what we in academia refer to as "peer review." Not merely to demand to continue to use the siren, but to threaten a fight over it, while utterly dismissing the ongoing suffering of people who do not enjoy our good level of health is arrogant and manifestly lacking in compassion.

Further, Tezor's tone is unmistakably that of a temper tantrum, such as that thrown by a three-year old. On these grounds alone, I would question his judgment in an emergency situation. And for his lack of compassion, I would be afraid to entrust my life to his hands.

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Posted in reply to the post by n4rky:

Read your own words. You made the claim. I just picked up on it.

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I don't see that in Bob's words.

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Posted in reply to the post by n4rky:

Congratulations. You have just shown who is really being selfish here. Your response is entirely arrogant. I don't know why you're a volunteer firefighter, but it is clearly not out of compassion for your neighbors.

And you have done this without substantively answering even your colleagues in neighboring fire departments who say that pagers work just fine for them, without explaining how it is that the terrain in Graton is so especially difficult that pagers will not work.

As you have now made amply clear, you just like to make noise. You're probably disappointed that the siren only sounds four times now, not ten as my mother informs me it used to. You're behaving like you're three years old.

And you know what? I don't think I want someone with the mentality of a three-year old responding to my emergency.

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I'm astounded that someone would write such piddle, especially directed to someone who volunteers to put their life on the line to save your ass! As with most projection, I think it says more about the person projecting rather than their subject.

You can argue and make insulting judgments all you want, but that not going to make a pager go off if it's not getting signal. We've all experienced drop cell calls around Graton and various bits of west county, what's so hard to understand that wireless communication is not 100% reliable?

It's clear that there are limited choices:
1) Keep the siren.
2) Switch to some sort of wireless system and have only 85% of the call signals be received.
3) Have a staffed firehouse and raise taxes to pay for it.

If there is some new technology (like another antenna or two) that would make a wireless work reliably and would have community support, that would be great. Failing that, it seems to me that the siren is needed. How would you feel if your emergency call wasn't responded to??

That said, perhaps there are ways of mitigating the problem. Passing up blowing it on NYE seems like a no brainer, even though I can understand the desire to do so. :happynewyear:

Going further, perhaps the siren can be used more as a backup system. The call could first be put out via a wireless system, and the firefighters could call to acknowledge they got the call and are one their way (or can't come?). If not enough people respond in X amount of time (1 minute?), the siren could be sounded. This does introduce a small delay into the system (requiring the response), but maybe that's an acceptable compromise.

This raises the question in my mind of how the siren is triggered in the first place. Who does that?

N4RKY,

We don't know each other, but I believe we disagree on many fronts. I do not judge the level of compassion you put out in your life, but I return the slur about making noise. I am talking about the all of us, and to me it seems you are talking about the one of you, or your mom.

I said my pager was old, I didn't "state" 30, your perception led you down the wrong path. Might happen more often than you know.

I did state that other departments have paid people to respond. All stations have towers for their antenna's, which receive pages 100% of the time. It is the volunteers who live at home, wherever that is, not the ones at the station, that don't have the antenna. They live in the canyons, or other geographical/geological realities that shape radio reception. These are the folks the siren reaches when the page doesn't. When they are out on a bike ride, out in the back 40 and forgotten their pager (opps human error), they hear and respond. And it's not just Graton, most west county fire departments have this problem, go and ask Cazadero, Fort Ross, Timber Cove, Bodega, Goldridge, and others. We live with it, and try our best to make it work. Those damn sirens help more often than you imagine, or give credit to.

Have you done extensive interviews with the firefighters in the west county? I've got 30 years under my belt, talking shop during mutual aid responses. We talk about stuff, good and bad, this has been a problem since I started 30 years ago. By the way do you know any firefighters( I'll bet you do, 85% of the firefighters in this and all industrial countries are volunteer)? Ask them. As to my level of compassion, I have no need, nor desire to justify my life to you. My neighbors can tell you if wish to do the research.

I don't discriminate when I respond, you could be Dick Cheney, and I would give you the best care I am capable of. My hopes however, are my own business, and I have called on the carpet some firefighters who let their personal discriminatory beliefs show on a call. We care for people, not judge them. Contribute to the solution, not take away from it, or make it worse.

I stand by the way l lead my life, I have been taught solid ethics. I just don't care if you like me, your acceptance of me as I am, is irrelevant to my life. I know I am a bit arrogant, tell me you're not, and I won't believe you. However my main fault is being someone who puts the group (read as the planet) and it's needs at the forefront of my thoughts. I am just saying this is a democracy, not ruled by me, or you, but us.

For the siren folks, probably outnumber your side by such a large margin, there should be no point to the conversation except to explore all the details. Yet you don't care, and will just continue to whine and sue. So sorry your life is so unhappy, but if it gets to the point something real bad happens in your life, call 911, and then just see how you feel when that siren starts blowing.

I don't wish you ill, I just figure you don't get it. In peace, Bob

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Posted in reply to the post by Barry:

I don't see that in Bob's words.]]

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To quote Tezor:

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My pager is in good shape, though it has a rough life. I know how to operate it after 30 years...

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Sounds like a reference to a thirty-year old pager to me.

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I'm astounded that someone would write such piddle, especially directed to someone who volunteers to put their life on the line to save your ass! As with most projection, I think it says more about the person projecting rather than their subject.

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And I am astounded by your lack of empathy.

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You can argue and make insulting judgments all you want, but that not going to make a pager go off if it's not getting signal. We've all experienced drop cell calls around Graton and various bits of west county, what's so hard to understand that wireless communication is not 100% reliable?

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Okay, so it's time for me to share some of my experience. As a cab driver in the mid-1990s in Marin County, with considerably more difficult terrain than that around Graton, I carried a pager to receive messages from my customers. I received hundreds of pages. I think I missed two.

The question stands. Why is the situation so much more difficult in Graton? No one wants to answer this. Even when other firefighters raise the question.

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This raises the question in my mind of how the siren is triggered in the first place. Who does that?

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According to the Press-Democrat story, it is triggered by the county fire dispatch.

Before Bodega Bay got their fully staffed firehouse, the siren was triggered by Sonoma County Emergency Services. Once the 24 hr staffed firehouse was built, the siren was no longer used. In the past, and tezor please correct me if I am mistaken, the siren was tested regularly for obvious reasons. It was also sounded in different numbers of tones so to speak. 2 siren blast meant one thing, 3 another, etc so the volunteers knew the severity of the call. This was my understanding of part of it's use....

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Posted in reply to the post by Barry:

...
This raises the question in my mind of how the siren is triggered in the first place. Who does that?

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Posted in reply to the post by n4rky:

And you have done this without substantively answering even your colleagues in neighboring fire departments who say that pagers work just fine for them, without explaining how it is that the terrain in Graton is so especially difficult that pagers will not work.

As you have now made amply clear, you just like to make noise. You're probably disappointed that the siren only sounds four times now, not ten as my mother informs me it used to. You're behaving like you're three years old.

And you know what? I don't think I want someone with the mentality of a three-year old responding to my emergency.

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Can a radio signal be blocked by a mountain? - Naked Scientists Discussion Forum

Here's a little something I dug up for you regarding mountains and microwave frequencies (yes, cell phones/pagers run on 800/900 and 1800MHz MICROWAVE FREQUENCIES). I'm guessing you're intelligent enough to understand a little bit about basic elementary school topography, and might even be intelligent enough to look at a topographic map and see the elevation lines. If you were to do that, you would notice that (for the most part) Santa Rosa is pretty flat. I know, you're going to want to argue semantics and ask about Fountaingrove and that little (well-developed urban area) region which has some elevation changes. The City of Santa Rosa has a huge infrastructure of radio networks, and being in an urban area, has the attention of AT&T (sort of) and Verizon who provide very thorough cellular and paging coverage. It's in their best interests to serve the major population center of the area.
You would also notice that for the most part, this "valley" in which most of Santa Rosa (160' above sea level) resides also contains Rohnert Park(106'), Cotati(110'), Sebastopol(78'), Windsor(118'), and Healdsburg(106')

Personally, I believe it is YOU who wants to create the noise around here - and as far as selfish, I don't see how the needs of the few (people who oppose the siren) outweigh the needs of the many (people whose lives/property have been saved) by the courageous men and women who VOLUNTEER SELFLESSLY to help their community.

I guess I could see how you got to your thinking my pager was 30 years old. The first pager I got 30 years ago was a Plectron. A 110v device that only worked at home, not portable easily. We then went to actual pagers. But the Freestone siren was often my first notice of a call in those days.

We now have repeaters which have made a big but not perfect improvement to aid in dispatch. The dispatch hit buttons that "tone" our department dispatch frequencies, there is often a delay to let the dispatcher finish talking before the wail begins. Way back, (before me) I heard that departments had various tones to (1, 2, or up to 5 cycles would mean different things) I don't have those details.

Thanks to all the kind words I've garnered, this is heartening. You who think I'm a three year old having a tantrum, luckily have never seen me angry. Best for all, if you never do, but again, no ill wishes, just get over yourself, there's way more to life. PEACE, b

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Posted in reply to the post by Imagery:

The City of Santa Rosa has a huge infrastructure of radio networks, and being in an urban area, has the attention of AT&T (sort of) and Verizon who provide very thorough cellular and paging coverage. It's in their best interests to serve the major population center of the area.

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Thank you for actually addressing an issue rather than just jumping up and down and repeating the same old talking point as if doing so would make it true.

It is my understanding that in some other parts of the state (I'm thinking of San Francisco), even cable TV providers are required to provide service to low-income neighborhoods. It occurs to me that the urgency of this paging service for emergency responders rises to a higher level; that based on experience in even more challenging terrain, providers have the capability to provide this service; and that regulatory agencies have the authority to require it. If so, then the onus lies with the county, and it appears a lawsuit against the county would be properly targeted.

FYI -
My husband, a 52 year old volunteer firefighter, who has volunteered for 36 years, is also not wide awake at midnight when his department gets a fire call in the middle of the night. The calls range from anything to vehicle accidents, structure fires, medical aid, public assists (like helping an elderly person back into bed if they have fallen), domestic violence, alcohol related incidents, to trees down. When its a tree down, they often have to wait for hours for PG&E to come before they can leave. This often happens on a work night, as well as a weekend night. It wakes me up too, but I, like you, can often roll back over and go back to bed.

The Press Democrat failed to mention that in Forestville, they were able to do away with the siren when their department changed from volunteer to having paid staff there full time. Are there any volunteer fire stations that do not have a siren or paid staff, or is it just the ones with paid staff, like Forestville?

Perhaps the Graton community can pass a tax bond so that there can be paid staff, therefore eliminating the need for the siren. To state that the pagers are fool proof, is in our humble opinion, just not true.

It is a fact that my husband's pager goes off randomly every day (often in the middle of the night),and does not go off on every call. There is also human error. Sometimes he forgets his pager, and because he too has to work, cannot drive home to retrieve it. His pager has been lost, broken, or the chargable batteries fail. Because of his day job, his pager cannot always accompany him under the foundation of a house with little crawl space. In those instances, working locally, he relys on the sirens.

Because over the years there are less and less volunteers with a larger population, he is often the only volunteer working locally during the work day. Also, sometimes during the summer, many volunteers are gone at the same time, leaving their numbers extremely low. He has relied on the siren many times in these instances as well.

Today's volunteers are expected to have the same training as those who work in paid stations. Volunteers are expected to give much more of a time commitment away from family, in order to remain a volunteer. Perhaps it is time for Graton to have paid staff, thereby eliminating the siren and compensating the true time commitment that these men and women make for their community.

I do know for a fact that when he is going on a call, he is not, nor has he ever thought, "I'm awake, so should you be too" He is usually just hoping that he gets to the scene on time, and can help someone, and probably secretly hoping that he is not going to get thrown up on, which has happened more times than he likes to remember.

Thanks,
Mary Sheila Gonnella
&
Tom Gonnella, Captain, Occidental Fire Department

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Posted in reply to the post by 2Bwacco:

In the interests of the golden rule, could folks remember that all people living in this area are not 18-28 years of age, hence are not wide awake at midnight?

Not saying I was inordinately disturbed by the sounding of the siren; it simply did not fulfill its stated purpose: summoning volunteers to an emergency!

Demonstrating a cavalier attitude, "we're awake, so should you be too!"

There are plenty of folks in this area that do not run out every New Year's eve and fire up firecrackers. There are better things to do with one's cash than light it on fire.

I think the siren is a stealth device to depress real estate values. Folks around Graton who purchased land at depressed prices (due to the presence of the siren -- I mean seriously, who would have purchased a home next door to the siren? really?) will now experience growing land values due to the relocation or cessation of the siren.

Folks who live next door to where the new station is to be built will experience similar drop in property values if the siren is implemented. Put yourselves in their shoes?

Press Democrat story: "...Jacobs is one of several members of Citizens for a Better Community that filed suit March 22 in Sonoma County Superior Court for an injunction to stop the fire department from moving the siren to a new firehouse."

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n4rky,

You are obviously part of the problem and not the solution when your first plan is to sue. How about taking more $ from already strapped organizations? Get a bill introduced into the state senate, house or call the Govanator to make the providers do it, but sue? WTF? You seem detached from community, not part of it, and you claim to represent it? Not me you don't. Your kind cost immeasurable damage to our finances and well being, I'm done with responding to your blather, get to work, off your ass and contribute... or just f off, I'm done, and I now retract my lack of ill will, you are a bag of farts, just stinky hot foul air. I will step out and let the rain wash you away...peace to all others, b


I'm done with this review, c u in court

Tezor,
Yeah he pissed you off. Just one man's opinion... We appreciate the job you are all doing. Earlier I asked a poster if a survey of Graton residents about the siren had ever been done. I got NO answer. Hang in there! Most of us support what you are all doing... Keep the siren till the firehouse is built. Then retire it if it is not needed. Easy solution...

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Posted in reply to the post by tezor:

n4rky,

You are obviously part of the problem and not the solution when your first plan is to sue. How about taking more $ from already strapped organizations? Get a bill introduced into the state senate, house or call the Govanator to make the providers do it, but sue? WTF? You seem detached from community, not part of it, and you claim to represent it? Not me you don't. Your kind cost immeasurable damage to our finances and well being, I'm done with responding to your blather, get to work, off your ass and contribute... or just f off, I'm done, and I now retract my lack of ill will, you are a bag of farts, just stinky hot foul air. I will step out and let the rain wash you away...peace to all others, b


I'm done with this review, c u in court

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Posted in reply to the post by Occidental Nutrition:

The Press Democrat failed to mention that in Forestville, they were able to do away with the siren when their department changed from volunteer to having paid staff there full time. Are there any volunteer fire stations that do not have a siren or paid staff, or is it just the ones with paid staff, like Forestville?

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As I read this, there are two questions I think worthwhile:

1. How many fire departments in Sonoma County are "still" volunteer fire departments?
2. Which of these departments still rely on sirens and how does their terrain compare to that of Graton?

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Today's volunteers are expected to have the same training as those who work in paid stations. Volunteers are expected to give much more of a time commitment away from family, in order to remain a volunteer. Perhaps it is time for Graton to have paid staff, thereby eliminating the siren and compensating the true time commitment that these men and women make for their community.

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Given that we live in an exchange economy, this seems only reasonable to me. Firefighters respond to commercial as well as to residential locations. For firefighters to be volunteers strikes me as a rather bizarre subsidy for this economic system.

Volunteers a subsidy? :hmmm:

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Posted in reply to the post by n4rky:

As I read this, there are two questions I think worthwhile:

1. How many fire departments in Sonoma County are "still" volunteer fire departments?
2. Which of these departments still rely on sirens and how does their terrain compare to that of Graton?

Given that we live in an exchange economy, this seems only reasonable to me. Firefighters respond to commercial as well as to residential locations. For firefighters to be volunteers strikes me as a rather bizarre subsidy for this economic system.

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It's all about giving back to the community you live in.... Not just taking and demanding.... For a real community to work all residents need to chip in and help when it is needed

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Posted in reply to the post by n4rky:

As I read this, there are two questions I think worthwhile:

1. How many fire departments in Sonoma County are "still" volunteer fire departments?
2. Which of these departments still rely on sirens and how does their terrain compare to that of Graton?

Given that we live in an exchange economy, this seems only reasonable to me. Firefighters respond to commercial as well as to residential locations. For firefighters to be volunteers strikes me as a rather bizarre subsidy for this economic system.

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