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To Mask or Not To Mask, that is the question
Activist and educator, Peggy Hall, shares her story of successfully lobbying her local County Supervisors/ Commissioners to strike down a mandatory face mask policy in Orange County, California.
Peggy says the local health emergency has been unlawfully prolonged so that her county may collect federal and state emergency funds, she says that this is fraud, and then she threatened to sue.
Deputy Health Director Nichole Quick recently resigned from her office after Peggy Hall and her supporters applied some pressure.
Peggy’s website aims to help other concerned citizens across the country to repeat her victory with an action plan, research and templates for letters.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W7Qs...ture=emb_title
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...ture=emb_title
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Re: To Mask or Not To Mask, that is the question
Other than being a royal pain in the face, masks don't really hurt us. They may not help stop the spread of the disease, but they surely don't contribute to it. On the other hand, there is a possibility that they may slow the spread down a bit. Who in their right mind, other than our inglorious leader, would be thoughtless enough to risk the health of those they come into contact with by not wearing a mask? Yes, money may be an issue, but so what? Given that she lives in Orange County, the home of the John Birch Society, I suspect she is motivated only by right-wing, non-thinking, ideology.
Old Granddad
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Re: To Mask or Not To Mask, that is the question
O.G. - actually there are health downsides to mask wearing: the first I found just now is -
The results of the first randomized clinical trial (RCT) to study the efficacy of cloth masks were published in the journal BMJ Open.
The trial saw 1607 hospital healthcare workers across 14 hospitals in the Vietnamese capital, Hanoi, split into three groups: those wearing medical masks, those wearing cloth masks and a control group based on usual practice, which included mask wearing.
Workers used the mask on every shift for four consecutive weeks.
The study found respiratory infection was much higher among healthcare workers wearing cloth masks.
ScienceDaily: Cloth masks: Dangerous to your health?
and other studies, which can be found if you look. actually you can feel the effects easily after 15 minutes, right?
additionally, doctors have repeatedly referred to issues like decreased oxygen being problematic; cutting down normal exposure to airborne particles then being exposed to them putting greater strain on immune system response; etc.
and yes, these health deterrents are balanced against the degree of containment of spread they may offer.
Federal funds flowing to cities and states in relation to mandated masks is a factor which clearly skews medical decisions. So it's not just "so what"... money ought not determine LOTS of what's happening all around us, but certainly DOES, so they're not the right decisions, they're the profitable ones.
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Re: To Mask or Not To Mask, that is the question
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Re: To Mask or Not To Mask, that is the question
It's no wonder we can't seem to control this virus. With fools like Peggy belching BS. If masks didn't cut infection why has every surgeon used one for the last 150 years. Every health department in every country is just fooling with you???? Every epidemiologist is wrong and some internet troll is right??
Use the brain God gave you.
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Re: To Mask or Not To Mask, that is the question
uh, michael:
Jude
https://www.waccobb.net/forums/wacco...8_13-57-53.png
Should You Wear a Mask to Prevent COVID-19?
Posted on: Tuesday, May 19th 2020 at 5:00 pm
Written By: GreenMedInfo Research Group
States are increasingly mandating the use of face masks in public places, but evidence suggests face coverings do little to reduce risk of illness and, in some cases, may even increase your likelihood of contamination.
As recently as February 29, 2020, U.S. Surgeon General Jerome Adams tweeted, “Seriously people — STOP BUYING MASKS! They are NOT effective in preventing general public from catching coronavirus … ”[i]
Yet, in a dramatic about-face, weeks later the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) said they recommend wearing cloth face coverings in public settings where social distancing measures are difficult to maintain, especially in areas with significant community-based transmission, and stated, “CDC also advises the use of simple cloth face coverings to slow the spread of the virus and help people who may have the virus and do not know it from transmitting it to others.”[ii]
At the state level, an increasing number of states have put in place recommendations and requirements for workers and customers to wear face masks in public. In Illinois, for instance, everyone is advised to wear a mask basically anytime they leave their home, including while shopping at grocery stores, getting food from drive thrus or curbside pickups, visiting a health care provider or traveling on public transportation.[iii]
In a statement released by the Illinois State Police, it’s stated, “Illinois State Police will work with local law enforcement to enforce this order but adhering to the order will save lives and it is the responsibility of every Illinoisan to do their part.”[iv] In other locales, like Harris County, Texas, it’s been said that failing to wear masks in public could result in a $1,000 fine,[v] an order that’s being challenged in court for being unconstitutional.[vi]
But as widespread advice to wear masks proliferates the U.S. — and a police state to enforce their wearing grows — the question remains: does wearing a mask really prevent the spread of COVID-19?
Face Masks Led to ‘No Significant Reduction’ in Virus Transmission
The idea of wearing a face mask, according to the CDC, is not so much to protect the wearer, but rather to benefit the population overall. If you’re infected with COVID-19 and don’t have symptoms, the theory is that wearing a mask could prevent you from inadvertently infecting someone else when you’re out and about.[vii]
Studies, however, don’t bear this out. In a May 2020 systematic review published in Emerging Infectious Diseases — a journal published by the CDC — researchers identified 10 trials that reported estimates of the effectiveness of face masks in reducing cases of influenza in the community. “In pooled analysis,” they stated, “we found no significant reduction in influenza transmission with the use of face masks.”[viii]
This included a study of face mask use among pilgrims from Australia during the Hajj pilgrimage — no major difference in the risk of influenza infection was found between the mask wearers and non-mask wearers. Two studies in university settings were also included, looking into the effectiveness of face masks among student hall residents for five months.
“The overall reduction in ILI [influenza-like illness] or laboratory-confirmed influenza cases in the face mask group was not significant in either studies,” the researchers found.[ix]
Surgical Masks, Cotton Masks Ineffective at Filtering SARS-Cov-2
A study of four patients with COVID-19 led to similar results — that wearing masks does little to block SARS-Cov-2, the virus that causes COVID-19.[x] Researchers asked the patients to cough five times into a petri dish while wearing no mask, a surgical mask and then a cotton mask. They swabbed the inner and outer mask surfaces afterward, finding that while most swabs from the inner mask surfaces were negative for SARS-CoV-2, all swabs from the outer mask surfaces were positive.
This raises two important points. First, as the study noted, “Neither surgical nor cotton masks effectively filtered SARS-CoV-2 during coughs by infected patients.” Second, the fact that the outer surface was more contaminated highlights the problems that can occur if a person touches the outside of their mask — thereby contaminating their hands. It’s possible that air leakage around the edge of the mask allowed the outer mask to become contaminated, or that the small aerosols of SARS-CoV-2 were able to penetrate the masks.
Either way, “[t]hese observations support the importance of hand hygiene after touching the outer surface of masks,” according to the researchers, but the likelihood of the general public, including children, washing their hands every time they touch their mask is small. A 2010 study added that while some evidence suggests wearing masks or respirators when you’re ill may protect others, there is less evidence on mask wearing to prevent becoming infected, especially in real-world settings:
“In conclusion there remains a substantial gap in the scientific literature on the effectiveness of face masks to reduce transmission of influenza virus infection.While there is some experimental evidence that masks should be able to reduce infectiousness under controlled conditions, there is less evidence on whether this translates to effectiveness in natural settings. There is little evidence to support the effectiveness of face masks to reduce the risk of infection.”[xi]
If COVID-19 Is Aerosolized, Surgical and Cotton Masks Ineffective
The idea of cloth face coverings preventing transmission was based on the idea that COVID-19 is primarily spread via large respiratory droplets. Research now suggests, however, that SARS-CoV-2 may remain suspended in aerosols for up to 16 hours.[xii]
It’s also been found that COVID-19 particles may be as small as 1 to 4 microns in size,[xiii] while surgical masks only protect against particles larger than 100 microns.[xiv],[xv] Again, surgical masks are intended to protect the wearer against large droplets or splashes of bodily fluids, while protecting others from the wearer’s respiratory emissions.
Even the CDC states that surgical masks do “not provide the wearer with a reliable level of protection from inhaling smaller airborne particles and is not considered respiratory protection.”[xvi] On the contrary, an N95 respirator is a type of mask with a tight-fitting face seal designed for health care workers who may be exposed to hazardous small particle aerosols.
In the case of respiratory virus and influenza, rates of infection were double among those wearing surgical masks compared to those wearing N95 respirators.[xvii] This suggests N95 respirators offer some protection, but not only are they in short supply, they’re only typically worn by health care providers performing certain high-risk procedures.
Wearing a Mask May Increase Virus Transmission, Cause Adverse Effects
The Emerging Infectious Diseases review pointed out that in lower-income settings reusable cloth masks are more likely to be used than disposable medical masks due to cost and availability. Indeed, reusable cloth masks are what’s being promoted across much of the U.S., even though research is scarce into the use of such masks, and wearing them the “wrong” way could backfire.
“Proper use of face masks is essential because improper use might increase the risk for transmission,” according to the study.[xviii] Speaking with Forbes, Dr. Eli Perencevich, a professor of medicine and epidemiology at the University of Iowa’s College of Medicine, agreed:
“The average healthy person does not need to have a mask, and they shouldn’t be wearing masks … There’s no evidence that wearing masks on healthy people will protect them. They wear them incorrectly, and they can increase the risk of infection because they’re touching their face more often.”[xix]
“Wearing a mask is tricky,” he added, “because it can create a false sense of security. If you don’t wash your hands before you take off the mask and after you take off your mask, you could increase your risk.”[xx] There are some risks inherent to wearing a mask, as well, such as hypoxia.
One study found a decrease in the oxygen saturation of arterial pulsations (SpO2) and a slight increase in pulse rates among surgeons wearing a surgical mask, and the decrease was more prominent in surgeons over the age of 35.[xxi] The risks may be higher for N95 respirators, which may impede gaseous exchange and increase workload on the metabolic system, particularly in pregnant health care workers.
“The benefits of using N95 mask to prevent serious emerging infectious diseases should be weighed against potential respiratory consequences associated with extended N95 respirator usage,” researchers concluded.[xxii] Headaches,[xxiii] dizziness, shortness of breath and even reduced working efficiency and ability to make correct decisions are also common following prolonged usage of N95 respirators.[xxiv]
Even WHO Warns of Mask Risks
The World Health Organization (WHO), while recommending that people with symptoms wear a medical mask, states, “the wide use of masks by healthy people in the community setting is not supported by current evidence and carries uncertainties and critical risks.” They also warn that the following potential risks should be taken into account:[xxv]
· Self-contamination that can occur by touching and reusing contaminated masks
· Potential breathing difficulties, depending on type of mask used
· False sense of security, leading to potentially less adherence to other preventive measures, such as physical distancing and hand hygiene
· Diversion of mask supplies and consequent shortage of masks for health care workers
· Diversion of resources from effective public health measures, such as hand hygiene
The potential benefits of mask wearing become even more dubious when it comes to the cloth masks now being widely used across the U.S. In a 2015 study led by Raina MacIntyre at the University of New South Wales in Sydney, 1,607 health care workers in Vietnam were given either disposable medical masks or reusable cloth masks that could be washed at home at the end of the day.[xxvi]
Penetration of cloth masks by particles was almost 97%, compared to 44% for medical masks, and those who wore cloth masks were much more likely to be infected with a virus. The results were so poor that the study cautioned against the use of cloth masks in a health care setting, stating that moisture retention, reuse of cloth masks and poor filtration could increase infection risk, and researchers stated, “Further research is needed to inform the widespread use of cloth masks globally.”[xxvii]
“There's just not a lot of evidence for cloth masks in the community,” MacIntyre told New Scientist.[xxviii] In Finland, meanwhile, COVID-19 restrictions are being eased without the recommendation for widespread mask wearing. Since research findings into the benefits of face masks vary, the government intends to conduct a detailed study before recommending that the general population wear them.[xxix]
While the evidence for wearing masks remains scarce, opposition to mask wearing is mounting among Americans, with reasons ranging from not believing it’s necessary to feeling it’s unjust for the government to force people to wear a face covering.[xxx] Such moral and ethical controversies are likely to continue, especially since masks may fail to protect people from illness as intended.
References/Footnotes for this article are here
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Re: To Mask or Not To Mask, that is the question
FYI - I am renaming this thread "To Mask or Not To Mask, that is the question"
(originally named: "Activist Peggy Hall Scores Victory in Orange County Against Face Masks")
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Re: To Mask or Not To Mask, that is the question
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by Goat Rock Ukulele:
It's no wonder we can't seem to control this virus. With fools like Peggy belching BS. If masks didn't cut infection why has every surgeon used one for the last 150 years. Every health department in every country is just fooling with you???? Every epidemiologist is wrong and some internet troll is right??
Use the brain God gave you.
I see that Jude went into great depth, before I could try to do that in a couple of lines :wink: - so to be contrarian again I'll point out one of the flaws in that analysis too:
Quote:
“Wearing a mask is tricky,” he added, “because it can create a false sense of security.
I'm not convinced that we have a good argument against them, if this is the worst thing that can be said.
One reason there's such confusion is that people aren't always making a distinction between what would be necessary to protect a surgeon as compared to what would protect someone strolling on the beach. There's been enough trouble getting people to make a distinction between protecting themselves vs. protecting others.
There's a big difference between a bicycle helmet and one used on the race course. There are big differences between masks. Also, people wear them sometimes when they're not really necessary - for example, when you ride a motorcycle across the pits they will penalize you if you don't wear your helmet. Covid masks seem pretty darn analogous. It may turn out that we rarely need them, and that the ones we commonly use aren't helpful in a situation where there's serious concentration of virus. But for now, speeds below 5mph and wear the damn thing.
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Re: To Mask or Not To Mask, that is the question
Ok, let's look at some numbers, hindsight being 2020. These come from Kirk uhler, a county supervisor in placer, who has been threatened by Newsome and his crew for questioning state covid policy.
Sonoma, Napa, Marin, Yolo, Santa clara; masks required. 3 million people, 543 humans per square mile, 163 covid cases and 6 deaths per 100k population.
Solano, Sacramento, San Joaquin, Stanislaus, Merced; masks not required. 3.5 million people, 624 per square mile, 155 cases 5 deaths per 100k.
Mask requirement by this data set is meaningless. Kirk put this out a few days ago. Gavin just required masks throughout the state!
I think Newsome is doubling down on old unproven covid assumptions because he wants to keep the opening rolling. He's smart, doing stupid things, for good reasons.
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by podfish:
I see that Jude went into great depth, before I could try to do that in a couple of lines :wink: - so to be contrarian again I'll point out one of the flaws in that analysis too: ...
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Re: To Mask or Not To Mask, that is the question
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Re: To Mask or Not To Mask, that is the question
For Everyone's Information::heart:
After 2017 Fires, I did some research and discovered that the N100 masks were more effective that N95.
I let lotsa folks know, and I special ordered enough for them, friends and my family, through Friedman's.
Unfortuneately, Friedmans forgot to save the ones for me and my family!
So, I re-orderd some and meanwhile my daughter had ordered some on-line (which were more expensive than Friedmans, and I try to support local businesses).
Most articles and research I've seen lately about covid19, don't mention N100 .
I invite y'all to research this and share your discoveries!:heart:
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Re: To Mask or Not To Mask, that is the question
I use p100 masks when the smoke is bad because they also filter organic compound pollutants. Most n95s and all n and p 100 masks have vent ports so that your exhale is unfiltered. So if you're asymptomatic they don't protect others.
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by gaiasophia:
...After 2017 Fires, I did some research and discovered that the N100 masks were more effective that N95...
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Re: To Mask or Not To Mask, that is the question
Wow, thank you Rossman!
I'd never heard that before!
Now I don't know what to do...wear a cloth mask under an n95 and /or n100...
seems like the only alternative?
:heart:
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by rossmen:
... Most n95s and all n and p 100 masks have vent ports so that your exhale is unfiltered. So if you're asymptomatic they don't protect others.
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Re: To Mask or Not To Mask, that is the question
Did you mean P100 or N100 masks, Rossmen?
Gaia wrote about N100 masks.
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Re: To Mask or Not To Mask, that is the question
Peggy stating that 'we are no longer in an emergency phase, that we are in a recovery phase' which is debatable
the way this recovery phase was kicked off was by Trump panicking and pushing for normalcy, days after the structures for containing the spread was getting established, digested and implemented by individuals, businesses, etc. then some state officials jumped on board. over the weeks Trump has come to almost discount that the virus is still alive in America. He has defied his own CDC policies. In suit, his followers follow, as do those having a hard time with the precautions. Understandable, no one likes the limits we have been adhering to. yet these very limits are what has brought the virus into containment and plateau-ed the escalation.
i am open to learning more about masks, their up-sides, their down-sides. like every beneficial thing, medicine can become poison if misused, & vice versa. we should be cautious about 'jumping on board' with any hypothesis. we are in a time of experimentation amongst other epidemics such as police brutality, Dreamers' rights, plus the economic disaster that is upon us, etc
yes, there are fraudulent, incredibly ignorant people in the system, like the ones misusing ventilators at Elmhurst, Hospital in NY.
the experimentation of daycares reopening, businesses taking steps to reopen, etc is an experimentation. we need to see the results of this before we make declarations about 'recovery.' this recovery process has been executed via experimentation, fueled by the fears of the president, pains of economic disaster, parents needing a break from the extra hours with their children that they are not used to handling, etc etc~ in some ways it is 'headless.' for the most part it is being constructed as best as possible, yet w/ such battles between federal and state set-ups for PPE, $, etc.
Malpractice needs to be called out~
if someone is milking the situation for money, that is wrong
but to state that all of the pre-cautions are useless
is throwing the baby out with the bath water
it's a big topic
how this Whole thing has been handled
has been very 'human'
ie. human error, trial & error
having an incompetent so-called 'leader'
w/ a CDC that has to tiptoe around his emotional fireworks,
thankful to the governors, mayors, health care workers, essential workers and citizens
who have taken the pre-cautions despite the discomfort, inconvenience, restrictions and risk to their lives and their families' lives
we are not out of the soup yet,
we are in unknown, unchartered waters still
we need to see the outcome Clearly
of this 're-opening'
masks have been one way of taking care of contagious spreading
we need to really get the facts straight on Masks
cotton masks were deemed inadequate from the beginning,
yet everyone started wearing them,
ignorantly
we need to evaluate When and Where
masks are needed,
which will be controversial
as is all of this~
and what kind of masks actually do the job
it won't be perfect
but we can improve
point is, Peggy, we are not in recovery yet,
Trump wants us to be,
we all would like that to be a reality
we started this 'recovery' thing
in the midst of the Spread.
Andrew Cuomo seems to be the clearest on his process and his thoroughness shown by NY's success rate
otherwise its been a zoo~
cases have "skyrocketed to 120,000" says Bernie in his email today, 6/21~
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by Jude Iam:
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Re: To Mask or Not To Mask, that is the question
Both, after the tubbs fires, then paradise burning, then kincade, and as a longtime construction worker, I've used a lot of masks. The numbers refer to % of certain size particulate filtering. The letters refer to additional filtering. The big problem with mask rating is fit. So when you get up to 95, seal becomes more important than the filter. That's why higher rated masks have a vent port. Think about breathing. When you take air in its easy to seal edges and pull through the filter. On the exhale, without a vent, you blow the mask off your face.
Today, as i did my business with unrated dust filter masks, since i gave my n95s to Sutter two months ago, my internal complaint was I can't breath. I checked myself for internalized racism, knowing that now, masks are more important for others. Earlier this day, I teased my father in law by calling him dad. I wished I could have hugged him, he's really care full, elderly and wise.
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Posted in reply to the post by wisewomn:
Did you mean P100 or N100 masks, Rossmen?
Gaia wrote about N100 masks.
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Re: To Mask or Not To Mask, that is the question
Dr. Fauci Admits He LIED About Mask Safety!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cq8iQ65p9B0
Question everything.
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Re: To Mask or Not To Mask, that is the question
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by caromia333:
i don't see / hear this as a lie
there are lots of disagreements
these days
i'm learning all about how to disagree
and respect the others' perception,
their right to perceive,
we
humans
are consistently in error,
we learn through trial & error
i believe he is telling the truth that supply for hospitals was already short
i don't understand why they did not look to the solution
which is to Mass Produce Efficient Masks
which still is not happening
Fauci is often put in tight spots
where the truth will upset the president or the people
i am a firm believer in telling the Truth
and only trust Honesty
Fauci's done a good job of speaking his truth,
simultaneously keeping his job~
the distance between him and Trump
allows for this,
at least for the time being
Trump disagrees with his administrators all the time,
he disagrees with the Constitution
and the laws often enough
in the beginning,
Burx and Fauci did not seem to see the need for masks,
this changed,
this is Life,
again i don't see Fauci as lying
He did not verbalize his reasons of concern for hospital staff,
still he did not lie
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Re: To Mask or Not To Mask, that is the question
Fauci himself acknowledges that he lied about the masks. That’s indisputable. Fauci felt it was for a good reason - to keep supplies available to the medical professionals who really needed them.
As our leading science advisor in this crisis, Fauci is required to tell the public the truth -- we don’t have enough masks for citizens now -- we must give everything to the health care workers until supplies are replenished. That would have made people aware that there were risks not wearing a mask. It’s basic information that Americans should have had so they can make informed decisions. What is NOT OK about telling the American public masks are not necessary (Beyond that it has obviously increased Covid-19's spread) it makes you doubt other things they are health advisors are putting forward. Keep in mind that America has a for profit medical system - we have to be hyper vigilant about their drugs and care they are offering.
Recently PBS FRONTLINE did an exposé on the Opioid bribery scam with Big Pharma. It’s a brilliant and compelling documentary and worth watching. You can better understand that all these agencies are often influenced by financial motivations. And that people died
because of their actions.
Fauci is meant to be a public figure, not influenced by conflicts of interests - but sadly he does have ties to big pharma and financial investments in the companies producing vaccines.
Most importantly we need to QUESTION everything. That is the point of Jimmy’s diatribe. We need to question whether the vaccines they release are safe. We need to question whether our health authorities are representing citizens or private corporations. Hundreds of thousands of people have been injured and killed by bad vaccines.
And finally if we are NOT allowed to question those in authority - and trust what they tell us - we are in trouble. That is the core of a true democracy.
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by santoshimatajaya:
i don't see / hear this as a lie...
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1 Attachment(s)
Re: To Mask or Not To Mask, that is the question
Do Masks Really Protect Against Covid?
https://youtu.be/0HVapwIrdhE
If 80% of a closed population were to don a mask, COVID-19 infection rates would statistically drop to approximately one twelfth the number of infections compared to a live-virus population in which no one wore masks. Which explains why Japan (who did not do a lockdown, but the population wears masks) has only 577 deaths in their country to date.
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Re: To Mask or Not To Mask, that is the question
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by caromia333:
Fauci himself acknowledges that he lied about the masks. That’s indisputable. ...
Fauci does not use the term or idea of lying,
which is my disagreement
He admits to the reason he said masks were not necessary,
government officials, big pharma, etc etc
are 'people'
people come in all assortments
yes, we need to watch
and question
and investigate
yes, money is a motivation for corruption
yes, we need the Truth told
so that Trust can function
i still do not believe Fauci lied
or said he lied.
there is malpractice in nursing and medicine
and every other service, job on earth
because people hold these positions
and people are not always very evolved
not easy
not palatable
but earthly reality
Fauci has stuck by his knowing
about the virus, caution opening up, etc
despite complete disagreement from the so-called president
i respect and appreciate and trust him for this.
i also agree with how he sees all of that.
i like his caution~
as for vaccines,
i could not put one in my body,
my alternative is to eat well.
i've healed through Food,
from illness medicine has no clue how to heal.
Lifestyle, exercise, whole organic foods eaten via a system that knows how to feed the body
creates an immune system that is strong.
Americans are not a healthy lot typically~
just knowing how to eat
is huge
and rare~
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Re: To Mask or Not To Mask, that is the question
Critical thinking requires we look at a subject from multiple viewpoints and perspectives and not rush to conclusions based on personal political beliefs. Scientific inquiry is rigorous and on-going. It is not a place to rest but to continue your exploration ... it requires you work at it.
Unfortunately in America, we are taught to memorize information rather than question. Critical thinking is difficult but exciting. It opens up our imagination to a world of discovery and inquiry.
There is no doubt Fauci misled the public. He purposely lied about the need for masks. And undoubtedly this falsehood cost people their lives, who choose not to wear a mask (homemade or not) based on his advise. That's a serious problem - as the video shows a paper towel would have stopped transmission. We look to Fauci's leadership for guidance on best practices. This is not a small lie, it has huge implications for our collective survival. And if he lies about this - what else isn't he telling us?
Whether you trust him or not is irrelevant - it sounds like you are taking a stance based on political ideology which is worrisome. Considering what is at stake (our lives). Fauci should have told us the truth from the get go.
I realize its painful to question and investigate. It requires intellectual prowess, openness and curiosity - which we have not been taught in schools. I think it is the core of most problems in our society. We wouldn't be so quick to take a stand - but actually study the problem in depth and then thoughtfully put together our ideas in a coherent and labored analysis.
Our opinions are meaningless in the face of what is true and what is false. Keep exploring - the universe is far more complex and mysterious than our flat world perspectives can contain.
"All environmental problems are caused by simplistic thinking in a complex cyclic world..."
- Monte Kirven (environmental educator who spearheaded the rescue of the Peregrine Falcon from near extinction)
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1 Attachment(s)
Re: To Mask or Not To Mask, that is the question
Krystal and Saagar: Fauci ADMITS LIVE government lied about masks to preserve supplies
Krystal and Saagar react to Dr. Fauci's interview where he admits health officials downplayed the importance of masks to save PPE for healthcare workers.
https://youtu.be/_2MmX2U2V3c
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Re: To Mask or Not To Mask, that is the question
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by caromia333:
Critical thinking requires we look at a subject from multiple viewpoints and perspectives and not rush to conclusions based on personal political beliefs. Scientific inquiry is rigorous and on-going. It is not a place to rest but to continue your exploration ... it requires you work at it.
Unfortunately in America, we are taught to memorize information rather than question. Critical thinking is difficult but exciting. It opens up our imagination to a world of discovery and inquiry. ....
I realize its painful to question and investigate. It requires intellectual prowess, openness and curiosity - which we have not been taught in schools. ..
you know, you're not wrong, but critical thinking also requires a lot of self-examination. It's a pretty short walk from seeing those around you as unable to think sufficiently critically, to thinking that "there but for the grace of god go I". We all go with 'them', sometimes. Those who 'do research' have more tools to work with when making an evaluation, but even evidence that seems pretty good can lead to some really wrong conclusions. It's worth remembering that many who have reached an opposite opinion have the same strong confidence in the path they took to get there.
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Re: To Mask or Not To Mask, that is the question
Japan is an interesting country. They were on it right away like south Korea, Taiwan Singapore and Hong Kong believing they could contain like sars1. And they have an amazing health care system which seemed to avoid killing people through aggressive ventilator use. They've had enough tests for contract tracing from the beginning and are vigilant about isolation and quarantine protocol. So they quashed spread quickly and have kept numbers low. There have been almost 1000 deaths.
The whole country masked up and like south Korea and Hong Kong there appears to be the beginning of a second wave. Singapore was hit the hardest, still masked and bringing numbers down. Poverty and population density make containment difficult there. Taiwan's containment and elimination effort still almost works.
In the us as we abandon other mitigation edicts mask requirements become more strident. Masks alone will have some slowing effect on the rapidity of daily case rise, I guess, in regions where significant heard immunity hasn't developed yet, like west county.
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by caromia333:
Do Masks Really Protect Against Covid?
https://youtu.be/0HVapwIrdhE
If 80% of a closed population were to don a mask, COVID-19 infection rates would statistically drop to approximately one twelfth the number of infections compared to a live-virus population in which no one wore masks. Which explains why Japan (who did not do a lockdown, but the population wears masks) has only 577 deaths in their country to date.
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Re: To Mask or Not To Mask, that is the question
This article was in today's paper:
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/...logo152x23.gif
Sweden trying out new status: Pariah state
CORONAVIRUS » Scandinavian country’s neighbors close their borders to Swedes over infection increase
By THOMAS ERDBRINK
NEW YORK TIMES
Published June 22, 2020
Updated June 24, 2020
Every summer for the past 13 years, fans of Nordic culture have gathered on the Norway side of the border with Sweden for the outdoor festival Allsang pa Grensen, which translates roughly to, “Singsong Along the Border.”
But this summer, there will not be any Swedish singers in the live broadcast event, nor will there be any Swedish fans in the audience, singing and clapping along. This year, Swedes are forbidden to enter Norway.
And Norway isn’t the only Scandinavian neighbor barring Swedes, with some exceptions, from visiting this summer. Denmark and Finland have also closed their borders to Swedes, fearing that they would bring new coronavirus infections with them.
While those countries went into strict lockdowns this spring, Sweden famously refused, and now has suffered roughly twice as many infections and five times as many deaths as the other three nations combined, according to figures compiled by The New York Times.
While reporting differences can make comparisons inexact, the overall trend is clear, as is Sweden’s new status as Scandinavia’s pariah state.
“We will miss the Swedes this year,” said Ole Evenrud, a Norwegian pop star who goes under the stage name “Ole i’Dole,” or Ole the Idol, and is a regular performer at the festival in Halden, a Norwegian border town. “But I’m OK with the borders being closed. We have been pretty clever about the way we handled corona.”
Swedish officials, including the architect of the country’s measures to stop the spread of the coronavirus, Anders Tegnell, are not amused. They say Swedes have been stigmatized by an international campaign to prove Sweden was wrong and warn their neighbors that they are going to be much more vulnerable if a second wave of the virus hits in the fall.
“We are really confident that our immunity is higher than any other Nordic country’s,” Mr. Tegnell said during a news conference last week. He added that while Sweden was not striving for so-called herd immunity, the higher level of immunity “is contributing to lower numbers of patients needing hospitalization, as well as fewer deaths per day.”
Mr. Tegnell also said that infections in Sweden “had peaked,” and were now falling, a trend reflected in The Times’s figures.
Experts in the other Scandinavian countries say the higher immunity levels have not been proven through rigorous testing, and that such talk misses a major point.
“When you see 5,000 deaths in Sweden and 230 in Norway, it is quite incredible,” said Gro Harlem Brundtland, a former prime minister of Norway and the former director of the World Health Organization, during a digital lecture at the Norwegian Academy of Science and Letters in May. “It will take a lot to even out this difference a year or two into the future.”
Continues here
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Re: To Mask or Not To Mask, that is the question
it's now being said,
via Zach Bush
that the virus has been tested to land on the outside of masks,
not remaining on the inside,
that masks therefore are a problem
best is to hear him speak on the virus
pl be open and willing to hear what he is saying,
he is a doctor with three degrees of medicine
and more
https://www.waccobb.net/forums/showt...969#post235969
Viruses are not what we have thought they were,
there is more to their purpose
which is age-old
their airborne nature
means people do not transmit them
tho they can through moisture droplets,
but the viruses themselves
will travel via air
this is a radical change of stride
from the allopathic view
which many already know is limited
when it comes to dealing with Health, Nutrition and Consciousness Raising
pl be open to listen to someone who
has travelled the allopathic road
only to become depressed over the outlook of the landscape
which is more like a cancer
than a fertile field of abundant Life growing there
he boils things down to Farming
with the ability to create Rich Soils,
which can transform this country, this globe's Human Health
where all the big pharma, toxic energy load, high rate of health issues so many in this country endure
heals
it takes the willingness to Change
if we want Change
and to recognize
what so many already know
about the failed systems
we are running
social change
not political change
change which interfaces with other cultures and countries
stop relying on the political system
similarly to stop using militant police
find social systems that work humanely
to resolve problems
ETC
listen
Listen
a bit
Open
to Listening
https://www.waccobb.net/forums/showt...969#post235969
thank you Jude
for posting Zach Bush's Work!!!!!!!
(this is not conspiracy theory, i promise)
until listening to this
i would not have Known,
Masks are not helping us,
they are a way to spread the virus,
tho the Virus
is not what we think it is
and
is not what is killing people,
pl learn about the true nature of Viruses,
Chemicals in our environment
are responsible for disabling people's health
along w/ the chemically sprayed foods they consume
and the lack of knowing how to eat
and what to eat.
what changed in China
was people getting off the streets, out of the vehicles,
air pollution dropped
when people stayed home
it was not social distancing or Masks
it is the chemical toxins we are daily employing globally
via vehicles, machinery, boats, planes, etc
+ how we farm
how we tend to our yards
via the main culprit
ROUND-UP
we got a lot of cleansing of our lifestyles
to do
Asap
and we can !!!!
pl listen to the link, to Zach Bush
:waccosun::heart:
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Re: To Mask or Not To Mask, that is the question
Dear Rossmen, I do appreciate your participation on this forum, but would you puh-leese spell HERD immunity correctly? Many thanks. :-)
Quote:
Posted in reply to the post by rossmen:
Japan is an interesting country. ...
Masks alone will have some slowing effect on the rapidity of daily case rise, I guess, in regions where significant heard immunity hasn't developed yet, like west county.
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Re: To Mask or Not To Mask, that is the question
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Re: To Mask or Not To Mask, that is the question
